The Most Extreme Trans Healthcare Ban You've Never Heard Of

Summary

It Could Happen Here – “The Most Extremely Trans Healthcare Ban You’ve Never Heard Of”
April 13, 2026 | Host: Mia Wong (Cool Zone Media) | Guest: David Forbes (Trans News Network)

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Episode Overview

This episode takes a deep dive into a sweeping, yet underreported, event: the 2025 total ban on transgender healthcare enacted across all U.S. Catholic Church–run medical systems. Mia Wong and David Forbes lay out how this privately-instituted ban, which surpasses any state-level legislative action in its breadth and severity, abruptly cut transgender healthcare—both for adults and youth—across vast swathes of the American healthcare landscape. They scrutinize the mechanics, reach, consequences, and glaring media silence surrounding this ban, as well as the lack of organized response from mainstream LGBTQ+ advocacy institutions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Nature of the Ban

• Not a Government Ban:
  Unlike most bans that draw attention in the U.S., this was neither legislative nor the result of public democratic processes.
  “This ban wasn't put in place by a legislature. It's not any institution that people have even the facade of an ability to really influence in.”
  (David Forbes, 04:10)

• Passed by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, November 2025:
  The decision was overwhelming—206 to 7—imposing a comprehensive ban on all trans healthcare (medications, surgeries) for all ages, in every healthcare system run by the Catholic Church nationwide.
  (08:09–08:13)

• Theological Justification:
  The ban was justified with explicitly transphobic rhetoric, invoking far-right terminology (“gender ideology is repugnant to the Bible and our tradition”).
  (08:15)

2. Unprecedented Scale of Impact

• Massive Healthcare Network:
  Catholic healthcare isn’t a niche—it accounts for up to 1 in 6 or 1 in 7 patients in the U.S. each year, with even higher proportions in states like Oregon and Washington (over 33–40% of beds).
  “Four in ten of the largest healthcare networks are Catholic.”
  (10:35–11:12)

• Invisible Reach:
  Many affected clinics aren’t outwardly Catholic, so patients (and often even staff) can be caught unaware. The system is rapidly buying up struggling secular providers, especially as hospital closures increase in working-class areas.
  (09:45–10:35)

• Insurance/Coverage Traps:
  Even those seeking care outside Catholic systems often have insurance plans tied to church-run networks or can’t afford “secular” alternatives, making switching providers functionally impossible for many, especially low-income and working-class trans people.
  (12:31–13:25, 31:20–31:45)

3. Lived Experience: On-the-Ground Consequences

• Sudden Loss of Care:
  Patients describe being welcomed for trans care one visit, then turned away without warning after the ban—even at clinics not obviously affiliated with the Church.
  (14:07–14:29)

• No Real Alternatives:
  Even in major cities or states with strong trans healthcare protections, options are scarce. Waitlists for gender-affirming surgeries were already years long; now, entire regions have lost the majority of providers overnight.
  “Suddenly like a seventh of all the people doing this are just gone. … if you are looking to get these procedures … you can talk to the trans people in your area and they will know every single doctor who does it.”
  (20:29–21:20)

• Rural Crisis:
  The largest regional trans populations are in the South and Midwest, areas especially dominated by Catholic healthcare with few, if any, alternatives.
  (18:56, 19:06)

4. Systemic Problems: Church Power & Socioeconomic Realities

• Working-Class Demographics:
  Trans people in America overwhelmingly belong to the working class; poverty, unemployment, and incarceration rates are extreme, compounding vulnerability to healthcare cuts.
  (13:25–14:59)

• No Accountability; Hierarchical Control:
  A handful of church leaders can override the will even of pro-trans hospital staff. Local resistance is easily quashed by hierarchical decree, rendering good intentions powerless.
  “In a hierarchical institution it kind of doesn’t matter what the people on the bottom believe, because at the stroke of a pen, 200 reactionaries … can just come in and be like, no, fuck you. None of you get health care.”
  (23:05–23:29)

• “De Facto Theocracy”:
  Catholic leadership now controls healthcare decisions even for people who aren’t Catholic, via ownership of hospitals, clinics, and insurance.
  “It’s also like de facto a theocracy … that’s the kind of sway in power they have. And it’s not been seriously challenged, including by liberals and even too many leftists.”
  (31:49–32:53)

5. Media Silence and Institutional (In)Action

• Minimal Coverage, Even by Queer/Trans Media:
  Aside from Trans News Network, in-depth coverage was rare.
  “TNN, as far as I know, is one of the only outlets, including in queer and trans media…that has done ongoing coverage on this, let alone in depth.”
  (05:17–05:53)

• Lack of Institutional Fightback:
  Mainstream LGBTQ+ advocacy groups (“Gay Inc.”) haven’t mounted lawsuits or campaigns against the Church, despite having far more resources than grassroots media.
  (25:12–25:54, 39:06–39:20)

• Historical Contrast:
  In the past, direct action campaigns—like ACT UP’s 1989 “Stop the Church” protest—proved effective in forcing the Church to reconsider policies.
  “It also worked. The Catholic Church did start backing off their stances because they didn’t want to be attacked more. And I think it’s a good example that…just fight them…it’s generally a much better approach.”
  (28:28–29:40)

6. Why Catholic Power Is So Difficult to Challenge

• Centralization:
  Unlike Protestant groups (e.g., Southern Baptists), the Catholic Church’s centralized structure allows it to implement sweeping, consistent policies across a huge network at once.
  (33:21–34:12)

• Secular Society Failure:
  Even self-proclaimed progressives and “separation of church and state” advocates tend not to challenge this ecclesiastical power, enabling the ban’s scope. (36:18–36:56)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Ban’s Extent:
  “A complete and total trans healthcare ban, medications as well as surgeries, adults as well as youth, was put in place throughout every healthcare system run by the Catholic Church in the U.S.”
  — David Forbes (04:10)

• On Progressive Complicity:
  “You will look in vain for a major national organization that’s…taking the Catholic Church to task over this…. apparently their higher ups are too busy, you know, taking first class flights and raking in nearly a million dollars a year while trans people can’t find jobs…”
  — David Forbes (24:07)

• On the Illusion of Church Progress:
  “Pope Francis… was always very clear about [his] rampant transphobia, and quoted him saying that… [trans people are] repugnant to the Bible and to our tradition.”
  — David Forbes (08:15)

• On Anti-Clericalism and Resistance:
  “Anyone who wants any kind of liberatory future… anti clericalism has to be part of it…. you do not get to anything remotely liberatory without directly attacking and challenging that. And for too long, that struggle’s largely been abandoned.”
  — David Forbes (34:26)

• On Grassroots Action:
  “The people in ACT UP who went and fought are just… you. There’s nothing, like, special about them. They were just people who were forced to act and who took up the fight and did it.”
  — Mia Wong (41:00)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• [02:30–05:53] – Introduction; Ban origins, scale, and surprise at lack of coverage
• [06:31–11:12] – Catholic healthcare system’s reach and swift, total application of the ban
• [12:12–14:59] – Insurance and affordability traps for trans people
• [16:49–21:20] – Impact on rural and small-town trans people; vanishing alternatives
• [22:37–23:29] – The precariousness of individual resistance within hierarchical structures
• [24:07–25:54] – Critique of major LGBTQ orgs’ inaction; past militant organizing
• [28:28–29:40] – Successes of previous direct-action campaigns against the Catholic Church
• [31:45–34:26] – The Church’s de facto theocratic control; anticlericalism as necessity
• [39:06–41:00] – Call to action for grassroots, collective resistance; individual empowerment

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Tone and Language

The episode is urgent, frustrated, and unapologetically confrontational—with direct, sometimes profane, language underscoring both the stakes at play and the anger at institutional failures. Both guests reinforce solidarity with working-class trans communities, critique surface-level progressivism, and prioritize accurate reporting over sensational “panic slop.”

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Final Takeaways

• The Catholic bishops’ healthcare ban is the single largest, most extreme rollback of transgender healthcare in the U.S. to date—enacted not by government but by a private, unaccountable religious hierarchy.
• Its reach, affecting millions of adults and youth—including many outside the Catholic faith—is compounded by the healthcare system’s vast market share and the lack of affordable alternatives.
• Media coverage and organized resistance have been shockingly absent, even from the country’s largest LGBTQ+ institutions.
• Effective resistance—historically and moving forward—must be militant, anti-clerical, and grassroots-driven, taking lessons from 1980s and ‘90s AIDS activism.
• The conversation closes with a call for collective, decentralized action over reliance on figureheads or institutions: “It’s just us, y’all… that’s what’s gonna have to solve this.” (42:24)

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For further reading and extensive reporting, Forbes directs listeners to Trans News Network.

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This summary captures the episode’s essential content and tone, presented for those who need the context, urgency, and depth without listening to the full audio.

Transcript

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On the Serving Pancakes podcast. Conversations about volleyball go beyond the court. Today we have a little best friend compatibility test.

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Okay.

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And how long have we been best friends?

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Since the day we met.

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of iHeart Women's Sports.

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Then she says, have you seen a

[Mia Wong]

photo of my son?

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And I'm like, who is this person?

[David Forbes]

Welcome to the boys and girls podcast. Arranged marriage is basically a reality show and you're auditioning for your soulmate. And who's judging? Only your entire family.

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I sacrificed myself to this ancient tradition

[David Forbes]

hoping to find love the right way. And instead I found chaos creating comedy and a lot of cringe. Listen to boys and Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Mia Wong]

Call Zone media. Welcome to iCadaf. And here a podcast about things falling apart and how to put them back together again. I am your host, Mia Wong. And today we are going to be talking about frankly the largest and most draconian trans healthcare ban in the country and the unexpected place that. Well, I don't know if unexpected is the right word, but the ignored place that it's, it's come from. And with me, with me to talk about, about this ban is David Forbes, who is an editor and a journalist with the Trans News Network. David, welcome to the show.

[David Forbes]

Always good to be here.

[Mia Wong]

I once again back to my. I wish I could have people on the show to talk about like cool and normal things. You know, we get that sometimes. This is not one of those stories.

[David Forbes]

I mean we're trans journalists in a dying empire, you know. Yeah, let's, let's. Yeah.

[Mia Wong]

So speaking of bad things happening in dying empires, do you want to take us sort of to the start of this healthcare ban and what we're even talking about here? Because it's not a government healthcare ban in the way that I think people expect.

[David Forbes]

No. And, and that's actually really important to all this story because a lot of the attention in healthcare bans has been on governments.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

And occasionally hospitals, like secular hospital systems refusing to provide care because they're scared of the federal government. So it's been a portrayed as a fight between governments or a fight over stuff happening at legislatures. And to be clear, that stuff is absolutely important.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Forbes]

However, this ban wasn't put in place by a legislature. It's not any institution that people have even the facade of an ability to really influence in. On November 12, 2025, a complete and total trans healthcare ban, medications as well as surgeries, adults as well as youth, was put in place throughout every healthcare system run by the Catholic church in the U.S. yeah.

[Mia Wong]

And that has not really like, I don't know, like I've talked about it, like we've mentioned it on the show before. I don't know if I've really seen any other like systemic large scale coverage of it. I mean there was like a couple of articles when it came out, but other than tnn, like this has been almost completely ignored even though it is more draconian than any healthcare band that has gone into effect anywhere in the country. It is a, it's, it's again, as you said.

[David Forbes]

Yes.

[Mia Wong]

This is a total health care ban for children and adults.

[David Forbes]

Yes. And for all, all types of trans healthcare.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah. For everything.

[David Forbes]

Yeah. And, and that's the thing. So. And I've honestly been a little surprised by that, even old and cynical as I am. But tnn, as far as I know, is one of the only outlets, including in queer and trans media. I won't say the only, but one of the only that has done ongoing coverage on this, let alone in depth. Extensive. What are the roots of this? How did we get here? Yeah, Kind of coverage. I've done two articles on it, and those were in December. So a few weeks after it passed, we kind of went in detail on what it meant and the implications of which were and have proven to be pretty horrifying.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

And also the Catholic Church has pretty horrific history as an institution, while individual Catholics have a. As we'll get to have a wide range of beliefs, including on trans rights. The institution itself has always been highly abusive, highly reactionary, and incredibly opposed to our very existence. And that just hasn't changed. It's actually escalating. And then we did one just last week that was on the actual impact, like, we talked to trans people around the country who'd encountered the impact of the bishop's ban, as I've heard a few folks call it, and I've called it a few times myself, and what it means for their lives in the ground.

[Mia Wong]

So I guess there's two points we should hit immediately. One is sort of how this happened and, like, how this ban sort of came together and was voted on by, like, who. And the second one is how many people this affects. Because I think this is the point that's really been ignored, which is that, like, Catholic hospitals, it's not like they're running like 10 of these. I mean, it would be bad if they were running 10 of these. But this is a significant part of the entire US healthcare system.

[David Forbes]

Yes, a massive part of it.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

So I think that's very important to kind of touch on. So this was passed in November at the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, which they have regular meetings and decide policies and stuff. And it's one of the things, and this is going to be a recurring theme in this, is the degree to which I think even people think of themselves as progressives, fairly left, have kind of bought hook, line and sinker some of the propaganda, and it is overwhelmingly propaganda coming out of the Catholic church since the mid-2010s when Pope Francis got in. So you were seeing from this conference the big news in a lot of progressive circles was, oh, well, they made this statement against the Trump administration. Immigration.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

But here's the Thing that was a statement. Certainly it's, you know, better than if they supported ice, but it was a symbolic step, largely.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah. Like they didn't even do, like, the very baseline thing, which would be like excommunicating JD Vance, a thing they could do and didn't. Because they're fucking cowards. Yeah, but they didn't even do that.

[David Forbes]

Yes. And we're gonna get back to that. And often worse than cowards.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

So at this conference that got most of the headlines, but they also passed this very draconian anti trans healthcare ban. Yeah, it passed overwhelmingly. This was not like some narrow victory by the conservative faction.

[Mia Wong]

No, it was almost everyone.

[David Forbes]

It passed 206 to 7.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah. Jesus Christ.

[David Forbes]

Interestingly, it was interesting listening to some of the proceedings of this, which may not be great for mental health, but was quite informative. Yeah. And one of the. One of the bishops involved, Robert Barron, cited Pope Francis, who was held out, even sadly, by some queer media as being this, you know, step forward for queer and trans rights, which I think was completely a farce. Held out his rampant transphobia, which he was always very clear about, and quoted him saying that viewed the existence of trans people. They used the far right term gender ideology as, and I quote, repugnant to the Bible and to our tradition. You could not ask for a more clear statement of hatred and extermination against trans people. Yeah, I mean, that's it. That this is not an institution that, you know, is slowly but surely getting better. This institution that outside of the pr, it's getting worse.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

Is digging in on doing really very reactionary harm. And so the effects of that were pretty devastating. And immediately, I mean, we'll get into some folks who dealt with stuff later that same month due to this ban in a little bit. But, like, the Catholic Church's healthcare networks are massive. By some estimates, 1 in 6, 1 in 7 of all people in the US go through a Catholic healthcare system at some point in a given year.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

It doesn't just include a few hospitals. It includes an incredibly sprawling network of clinics and specials and doctors practices. Plenty of them are not outwardly Catholic. Even so, people may be going to a practice owned or under the Catholic Church and not even be aware of it. It's also expanding. It's taking over and buying out previously secular practices. And this is, you know, a multifaceted problem. It goes along with cuts in federal aid. It goes along with the general, like, capitalist fervor that kind of grips secular health cares as well. So if they cut Services, the Catholic Church often buys them up and expands. So it affects everyone in that. Yeah, everyone who deals with that. And the Catholic tears has never been pro trans remotely. But previously, prior to this ban, there was kind of a hodgepodge and some local ambiguities and there were cases that we'll get into some of them in a second where local pro trans Catholics or folks working at those networks could indeed provide pretty substantial trans care through like one ambiguity or loophole or another that just ended all of it.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

So throughout that entire network in some states and ones you wouldn't necessarily think, including, you know, ones like Oregon and Washington that are ostensibly supposed to have like pretty strict trans health care protections. Catholic hospitals comprise like over a third of hospital beds and I think Washington is over 40%. So we're talking about, of health care beds. We're talking about a substantial part of, of the American healthcare system. Four in ten of the largest healthcare networks are Catholic. That's how extensive this was. And now trans healthcare is banned in all of them. Absolutely.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah. And that's something that has an absolutely massive rolling impact. Right. Because again, it's not just that it's like outwardly Catholic hospitals and something I think you're going to talk about more later, but it's also like, it's people who have healthcare plans through like something that's affiliated with the church. There are all of these ways in which, you know, suddenly just enormous numbers of people had their healthcare taken away effectively overnight. Because the primary way that anti trans healthcare repression has been understood has been through the state level. And I understand why it's like that because like a lot of it has been coming from the state. Both on. This is where you get into confusing American terminology, but both in terms of the federal government and the state level governments. Right. Like there's been a huge focus on that. But the distribution of the Catholic healthcare system is cutting through the lines of what people sort of had previously assumed to be safe.

[David Forbes]

Yes.

[Mia Wong]

And this is something that is a threat to trans people effectively everywhere. And it's compounding as we were talking about earlier, with the sort of crisis of affordability and coverage. Because a lot of these. Yes, Healthcare clinics and hospitals and practices are the ones that are actually covered by insurance.

[David Forbes]

Yes.

[Mia Wong]

And there you can, you can switch to like their secular ones, but you can't go to them because they're not covered by your fucking insurance. So they're unbelievably expensive.

[David Forbes]

And this gets to a reality that goes through a lot of our coverage. Which is that trans people are an overwhelmingly working class demographic. Yeah, I don't think that gets said enough. It doesn't get depicted even in some queer and trans media. But that is incredibly important here. I began the second story with an interview that we published with an interview with Beth, who's a trans woman in the Midwest and found it nearly impossible to find healthcare outside of their networks. Because like a lot of trans people, Beth has an ACA plan. And because the secular networks are a little more expensive, some cases a lot more expensive. The ACA plans that are available to most trans people, you know, that they can remotely afford don't cover health care there. So you kind of have to. And then they don't provide your health care at all.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

And in that case, this was someone she'd been going across state borders, which she noticed kind of wild to get healthcare anyway to go to Planned Parenthood. Finally thought that she had found a practice closer to home. Went there before the Bishops ban, like right before it hit. They seemed very welcoming. She knew other trans people that had gotten care of there before and everything seemed great. Goes back after the ban and it's like, oh, I'm sorry, we can't help you. And this wasn't a practice that was obviously Catholic. No giant crucifixes or anything hanging on it. Yeah, it was just one that was, oh, it's a doctor's office, some other trans. You've gotten care there. It beats driving at least an hour each way, if not more.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

Again, when you're working class, a two hour round trip commute is a lot. That's especially with gas being up more. That's a lot of money. And it strained things even further. And so she had to go back to traveling across state. But you know, I think some folks assume and she points out, like, oh, you just go to another provider. You often can't. There's not that option.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah, there isn't one.

[David Forbes]

Even in some fairly major cities there is not that option unless you have a lot more money or healthcare through a fairly well heeled employer. And a lot of us don't.

[Mia Wong]

You know, this is another one of the problems here, which is that trans people are overwhelmingly working class. It is one of the worst demographics of poverty rate of any of like any demographic group in the U.S. yes. The unemployment levels are like, like this was like 2023 back when the economy was like working was like 1936 great depression levels.

[David Forbes]

Yes. Incarceration rates, education rates, it's all among the poorest of the poor.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah. Yeah. It's all apocalyptically bad.

[David Forbes]

Yeah.

[Serving Pancakes Hosts]

On the Serving Pancakes podcast, conversations about volleyball go beyond the court. Today we have a little best friend compatibility test. Okay, how long have we been best friends for?

[David Forbes]

Since the day we met.

[Serving Pancakes Hosts]

As the League1 volleyball season heads towards its final stretch, there's no better time to tune in. We really are like yin and yang, vodka and tequila. You'll hear unfiltered analysis, behind the scenes stories and conversations with leaders making an impact across the sport. Today we have Logan Lednecki. I feel like our fan base in general is very connected. It's like a comforting feeling getting to play at home. Whether you're following the final push of love season or just love the game, serving Pancakes brings you closer to the action and the people shaping the future of volleyball. Jordan Thompson had that microphone out. God forbid we make mistakes or cuss at our coach like one time or two times. Open your free iHeartradio app. Search serving Pancakes and listen. Now, this has been Serving Pancakes. And we'll catch you on the flip side, okay? Presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports.

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[Mia Wong]

Then there is the issue, and this is an issue that we've, we've covered on the show from, from other lenses, which is that like, yeah, like we're dealing with these, like, large scale waves of hospital closures.

[David Forbes]

Yeah.

[Mia Wong]

And the less hospitals that exist in an area, and particularly in the sort of working class areas where these people are living right, the more those hospitals close because those are the ones that are closing because they're losing a whole bunch of funding from the government. And, you know, there's like, there's, there's a series of other economic pressures there. The more those options disappear, the more reliant people are on, on these Catholic hospitals which have just implemented an adult healthcare ban. Yeah, like the Republicans in Congress aren't pushing that right now.

[David Forbes]

No.

[Mia Wong]

Like, I cannot emphasize how unbelievably draconian and reactionary this is.

[David Forbes]

Yes. Well, and also they're doing at the same time that you have Major progressive media figures, legislators praising the current Pope for uttering some words about universal health care. They don't practice universal health care. Not just with trans people, but definitely not with trans people.

[Mia Wong]

It's like they have the money to, like they could.

[David Forbes]

Yeah.

[Mia Wong]

And they don't.

[David Forbes]

Like. There's a story in investigating this that really stood out to me and it was from a pharmacy intern, basically someone who's studying to be a pharmacist and did a, you know, a stint, a training stint in a Catholic hospital right before the bishops ban hit and said that they were doing at least one gender affirming procedure a week.

[Mia Wong]

Jesus Christ, a week.

[David Forbes]

And that actually, you know, this was someone who had dealt with a Ford and had not got great experiences and was actually heading into this, you know, kind of this 12 week stint expecting to have to deal with, you know, the problems of being a trans person with a religious institution and actually said no, that this, this particular hospital, the folks who work there were super pro trans, super accepting, they were actively providing trans care. And mentioned even because it was a moral area and that's that stat alone that was, you know, a gender affirming care procedure. Most weeks should be a reminder that a lot of trans people also don't live in major cities.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

They live in smaller cities. They live in small towns, rural areas, even by a mile. Actually the region of the U.S. with the largest trans population is the South.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

And the Midwest is very closely tied with the west, which includes the west coast for second. So they mentioned that there's. This was a sentiment of the staff, like look, if you're in la, okay there's a bunch of Catholic hospitals, a bunch of other ones too. So the people seeking out Catholic hospitals may be a bit more conservative. There are more likely to be other alternatives now. So healthcare access can be a problem there too. But in war era the kind of staff had a sense, look, if, if we don't do it, no one else will.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

And so they, they didn't be pretty pro trans. The loophole they used, the ambiguity. I guess the very person they used was if an insurer, secular or otherwise said hey, this procedure is necessary, they didn't question it. And under the previous pre bishops ban situation there was kind of that bit of that leeway.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

This is an example of, you know, some of them Catholic pro trans folks in a rural area.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

Actually doing some real good. And then because they kind of maneuvered in this gray area and this band just completely ended that.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

They also described because they actually had top surgery scheduled at this same hospital and the ban hit. And they're very thankful to the doctor who did, you know, surgeries at that hospital, who intentionally just kind of kept them on the schedule.

[Mia Wong]

Incredible. Incredible.

[David Forbes]

Yeah, but, but like we need way more of that. But also it just got a lot more difficult and a lot more hurdles were, were placed in the way of that. So like what was happening just got cut off.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah. And this is also a really, a really significant issue because trans healthcare is already even before this, you know, like the wait list for things for things like top surgery, things like bottom surgery are sometimes years long. Even in places that have like quote unquote, like good healthcare. Right. Like even in places like Oregon or like.

[David Forbes]

Yeah.

[Mia Wong]

You know, places like la, like you're dealing with multi year wait lists to get these procedures.

[David Forbes]

Yeah.

[Mia Wong]

And suddenly like a seventh of all the people doing this are just gone. And that just contributes. Even if you can get.

[David Forbes]

And some places half.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah, yeah. And the number of people who do these procedures is so small that if you are looking to get these procedures, like you can talk to the trans people in your area and they will know every single doctor who does it. Yeah, right. Because there's like three maybe if you're lucky. There's like three usually there's like one

[David Forbes]

like even on the HRT front sometimes.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

And I can speak from experience on this, you know, it's often kind of an icebreaker of like, oh, you know, which medical practice is giving you your HRT and down. Because there's like maybe three if you're lucky.

[Mia Wong]

Yep.

[David Forbes]

And that's maybe for a whole region.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

And you know, a lot of trans, maybe even most live outside of what you think of the few, you know, major metropolis. But also there was a while I was looking into this, there was a case in 2017 before the bishops ban, where a Catholic hospital in California, which on paper at least has fairly strong trans health care protections for the U.S. yeah. Where a priest with no medical experience comes in last minute vetoes the top surgery for a trans man and they kick him out on the street. Still on the drugs, the pre surgery drug.

[Mia Wong]

What the fuck? Jesus Christ.

[David Forbes]

He sued them. Rightly.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

Like, you know, this is, this is a hospital in New York, California. We could go into it a little bit in the story. So like that was happening before, but that's now everywhere. And the few cases like the hospital that, that we mentioned, where there were folks working around that to still provide some healthcare, that's probably gone now. I would say it's almost certainly gone unless folks are really just breaking the rules, which they should.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah. You know, but this is sort of the systemic problem with having the church hierarchy having control over these healthcare institutions, which is that, yes, even if you are just like in the institution trying to do good and you believe in the right thing and you're trying to do the right thing, it doesn't matter.

[David Forbes]

Yeah.

[Mia Wong]

Because suddenly just the hammer can come down on you from above. And even if you keep doing it right, there's always just the risk that like, they're just gonna fire you all.

[David Forbes]

At best. It is highly precarious.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's this really kind of, I don't know, this kind of like brutal demonstration of the reality that in a hierarchical institution it kind of doesn't matter what the people on the bottom believe, because at the stroke of a pen, 200 reactionaries who run your fucking institution can just come in and be like, no, fuck you. None of you get health care.

[David Forbes]

Yeah, well, and not just that, but run a substantial amount of the entire American health care system.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Forbes]

I mean, and this is actually why. And this is a larger factor. I have survived literal fundamentalist Christian violence when I was, when I was younger. And I think this is actually something we will probably get into in a little bit. Like, I've never gotten the aversion, especially from queer and trans organizations, to criticize religious institutions and didn't always used to be this way, but it's definitely been this way, including on this issue, because, you know, you will look in vain for a major national organization that's like taking the Catholic Church to task over this.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

Ones with millions dollars of budgets. You know, apparently their higher ups are too busy, you know, taking first class flights and raking in nearly a million dollars a year while trans people can't find jobs, you know, but like, yeah, so I've never gotten the aversion because for a lot of us on the ground, for a lot of us, who among the. The many, many, many trans people that are working class that live outside some of the like, you know, handful of metropolis that we often get depicted as exclusively living in fundamentals, violence, you know, to be, and to be clear from plenty of like Protestant evangelicals as well. Yeah, never stopped. It never stopped being a very serious and real threat. Their numbers have gone down since the 90s, you know, in the early 2000s.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

But it's never stopped being something you really have to have to account for whether it's Institutional, even if it's totally illegal, they'll still do it like they did in California, or literal, like street violence. Literally, like people attacking you with weapons. So I think that's definitely a factor in all this and I think it's a sad factor in why folks haven't heard about it.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

And, you know, in some of the stuff I've talked about before on the show and elsewhere, I've mentioned that I think that whatever the intent behind it, the Gay Inc. As it were, the structure of, you know, these larger nonprofits which you can send down to like the local and state level at some points, that and the culture from them that kind of is more status quo and more so kind of dictates a lot of like official, at least queer and trans politics has been a disastrous failure. And I think that's even, you know, even more apparent here. This is again, the largest, most draconian trans healthcare in the U.S. it's already happened. It's already in place. And you will look in vain for any organizing from the institutions. They're supposed to protect trans rights against it.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

There aren't like big lawsuits being filed. There's not like, you know, exposes being run. They have far more resources than they are, you know, worker run newsroom. We do a lot with what we have. We encourage people to support us, but like, they have a lot more resources to make those things a large national issue. They have chosen not to. And a lot of people are going to suffer for that. Are suffering for that.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah. And I should mention too, on an actual policy level, like a full scale health care ban on adult trans health care is like hideously unpopular. Like there's a reason the Republicans haven't done it. Yeah, right. Because it's not popular. So this is like, this is a winning issue.

[David Forbes]

Yes.

[Mia Wong]

Right. And they won't fucking take up the

[David Forbes]

fight because they're too busy glazing the papacy. Not just them. I mean, progressives in general are lately blazing the papacy way too much.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah. And it's just this issue that trickles down too, to like the fact that the sbc, Right, the Southern Baptist Convention, the fact that there hasn't been a sort of broad scale offensive against them. You know, even though they've been like, driving.

[David Forbes]

That's a massive problem.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah, yeah. Driving like all of this shit for fucking ages. And they were like, you know, like there was a point like a couple of years ago where they were genuinely seriously weakened by their series of like, of internal abuse scandals.

[David Forbes]

Yes.

[Mia Wong]

And like, even though like these are like the church groups that are also backing the healthcare bans on the legislative level. There's no sort of political will to actually go to war with the right wing churches that are doing this stuff.

[David Forbes]

Well, so this is an interesting difference and it relates to what we were just talking about, the sentiments I hear among trans folks on the ground. You know, working class trans folks is pretty anti clerical like to put it, to put it mildly. It tends to be more gentry types, especially ones more in Scots and institutions or like, you know, official political culture. The gang stuff we've been mentioning that have more of this aversion. And I will have to say it wasn't always this way. I am old enough to remember when queer organizing taking aim at mocking, even go directly going the attack against suing. Definitely.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

Religious institutions was a pretty common fixture. A prominent example and I deal with this in the earlier piece as well as touching on the more Recent one was Act Up's 1989 Stop the Church action, which you imagine a queer org doing an action with that title today, in which case they militantly Disrupted services of St Patrick's Cathedral in New York because of the ridiculous homophobia of the Catholic Church and its role in the Asian asides.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

And if there's some video of this that we, that we linked in that first story from ACT UPS archives and I find the signs hilarious, but there's stuff that you would immediately see tone policing about even from some trans, queer and trans media today. Yeah, you know, oh, we shouldn't alienate normies. All this, all that. And oh hey, there was a big backlash the time, a huge one. The President condemned it. You know, the federal officials condemned it. Congress critters condemned it. You know, there was this giant attack. This was unacceptable, beyond the pale. It also worked. The Catholic Church did start backing off their stances because they didn't want to be attacked more. And I think it's a good example that stop looking at the damn polls and just fight them. Yeah, you know, it's generally a much better approach. And I think, I have to say I think part of this as you've seen, especially with how, you know the co option of some of the results of equal marriage when you saw after that era gay in groups used that to become like the predominant force and gatekeep a lot of other organizing and queer and trans activism, you saw this backing away from ever criticizing religious institutions. I mean the Advocate named Pope Francis In 2013 their person of the Year.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah. And like this is the guy who Said that. She said that gender ideology is more dangerous to the world than nuclear weapons.

[David Forbes]

Yes. Again, you know, individual Catholics have their own sets of beliefs and differ. Some are very obviously pro trans, but like, the institution is very unequivocal on this. It has never stopped being that.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

And longtime journalists covering the Catholic Church, you know, cautioned that, look, the term they use was changing the tone, but keeping the same music for Francis's papacy.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

And Leo is very much in that now. I think that actually opens up a weakness because with the, you know, revelation of the horrific levels of serial child abuse within the Catholic Church, with the, you know, atrocities on massive scales involvement, indigenous genocide, with the attacks in the 80s and 90s and 2000s about their homophobia and their role in the age, genocides as well, like there was actually starting to be this giant institution, despite how hierarchical and unaccountable it is, was starting to be on the back foot. And you know, in some places, like Ireland, this has led to its, its power numbers being like, taking a massive hit. So there was a shift like any institution, to give a kinder face. And the depressing thing is that among. A lot of people should know better. It's largely worked.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

And I really wish people would be less taken in by symbolism.

[Mia Wong]

Yep.

[David Forbes]

It's also like de facto a theocracy because one of the people we talked to, Allison, would try to get testosterone right off the bishop's ban. They're not Catholic, Their doctor isn't Catholic, their pharmacy's not Catholic.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

So you'd think, okay, well, you should be able to. No, no, no. The insurance that their spouse had was technically provided through a Catholic healthcare network.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

So it took them months before they finally got the testosterone. And so now they have to pay out of pocket for it. They can for the time being, but for working class trans people, that's one more cost on top of everything else. And eventually those are costs you often can't bear. So, like that. That's the reality.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah. And the reality is, is is unaccountable theocratic rule.

[David Forbes]

Yeah.

[Mia Wong]

In areas where it's not supposed to be happening.

[David Forbes]

Exactly. Well, in potentially any area. You know, if you have a secular practice today delivers you hrt, no issue.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

It could get bought out by one of these networks tomorrow. Yep.

[Mia Wong]

Why the fuck do these religious institutions have the ability to influence, like, healthcare at all? Yeah. Right. This is something you, you, you would think would be not a place where someone else's religion can suddenly.

[David Forbes]

Yeah.

[Mia Wong]

And not even like that person's religion. It's like the religious hierarchy of a church should not be able to dictate whether someone gets health care. And yet.

[David Forbes]

Yeah, this goes well beyond the, you know, even supposed power in a secular society that, you know, religious have. Oh, we can, you know, they can make this pronouncement that applies to those who believe in that religion or that, that specific denomination or institution or whatever. No, this is affecting plenty of people who have never set foot in, in a Catholic Church.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

Who aren't remotely Catholic. Even the providers that they're going to aren't Catholic.

[Mia Wong]

They.

[David Forbes]

And this is still happening because that's the kind of sway in power they have. And it's not been seriously challenged, including by liberals and even too many leftists. And you mentioned the Southern Baptist Commission earlier. It isn't just the Catholic Church, but because of the sheer scale and the centralized nature of its hierarchy, they are certainly probably the single most damaging institution on this front. The SBC is a problem. While they operate on far too vast a scale, they don't operate in the scale the Catholic Church does.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah, and this is like, this is, you know, fundamentally like part of the issue here. It's just there's a, I don't know if advantage is the right term here, but like the centralization of the Catholic Church relative to like the sort of divided Protestants denominations allows them to wield power like collectively in a way that is a lot harder for something like the SBC where just like it just doesn't have the scale that like that, that the church does and like that the Catholic Church does. And because the Catholic Church is this large is able to just buy out this much of the hospital system and then because of the, of the top down structures where the bishops can just go in and vote and do and implement this stuff. It's a really, really, really significant problem.

[David Forbes]

Yes.

[Mia Wong]

That is just not being dealt with. This is not a problem that you can just like snap your fingers and solve by like running stuff through a state legislature. No, like you actually have to go after the institution. You have to fight them on their ground.

[David Forbes]

Yes. And also this is, you know, it's kind of what I ended the December piece with, but also it's something I emphasized in the second one. Anyone who wants any kind of liberatory future, regardless of whatever their personal beliefs are, anti clericalism has to be part of it. It's not the same against being against every individual of a certain religion. It is specifically against this kind of theocratic hierarchy and its power over people's lives. You do not get to anything remotely liberatory without directly attacking and challenging that. And for too long, that struggle's largely been abandoned.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

And not shockingly fundamentalist of various varieties. And let's be honest, primarily Christian fundamentalists have played a major role in American fascism and in stripping rights from entire groups. And it's interesting because you mentioned the council bishops beside this. But that's true. But it gets even more centralized than that. The, you know, progressive Pope that's getting praised for, you know, condemning the Iran war, and it's always condemning or statements or the this or that. You know, the Catholic Church is still kind of an absolute theocratic monarchy in some ways. You know, he could just say, hey, American bishops don't do that. Like, I'm overruling you. You do have to provide trans health care under whatever circumstances or regularly. All of them. He's chosen not to. And if you look at his history of transphobia before he became Pope, that's not particularly surprising.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah, I think sort of like the, the very baseline kind of anti clerical stance here is like the moment your religion is able to dictate the behavior of people who are outside of it.

[David Forbes]

Yes.

[Mia Wong]

You have crossed the line into sort of like into this kind of clerical role in ways that I think everyone should be deeply opposed to.

[David Forbes]

Yes. Like universally that should be regarded as unacceptable and oppressive.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah. And this is what we're dealing with here, which is that when there isn't this. Because we talk a lot about sort of the separation of church and state, which has always been kind of a joke in the US to like a broad extent. Right. But like, you know, there are like other spheres that exist in our lives. Right. There's, you know, like there are economic spheres, there are health scare spheres, there are like social spheres and you know, like the fact that a church can just be like, no, fuck you, and cut off unbelievable numbers of trans people from their health care in a way that even the sort of like right wing theocrats in office wouldn't be able to do.

[David Forbes]

Yes.

[Mia Wong]

Is something that has to be, that has to be opposed because fuck that it does.

[David Forbes]

And I will add while, you know, obviously, and we deal with some in this story of, you know, an example of pro trans folks at a Catholic hospital, even a Catholic hospital, overwhelmingly the staff were pro trans. But I do think, and polls to the extent that they matter, you know, do show repeatedly that opinion within Catholics the themselves and visually is pretty split on this. There are a substantial number who are pro trans rights and pro trans healthcare I also have to say, though, that at this point, I think there is a specific obligation among them to speak up and act against this loudly.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

And, you know, I think the example of the. The Doctor who one people I interviewed, you know, get around the band to get top surgery. I think that's the minimum, honestly. Like, yeah, like, okay, if you support trans rights, start here. Because I think pressure from that quarter, as we've seen, hits even harder on some of these institutions, you know, because while they claim to be this above everything kind of hierarchy, we have seen worries about losing numbers of Catholics being involved in the church has driven their decisions before. And more pressure will drive them again potentially, you know, like. Yeah, I think it will. Like, what we've seen pretty clearly just in my lifetime is when these institutions are under attack, when folks go on the offensive against them culturally, you know, socially, with direct militant organizing like ACT UP did, then we see some of our rights and liberation advance shockingly quickly in some cases compared to where they were.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

And when that is relaxed on, when they are given space to gather power and plan and go back on the attack, then things get a lot worse very quickly.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

This can be fought. The first part of fighting it is to talk about it, to be vocal about, to be loud and talk about how it is unacceptable. I think, frankly, a lot of pressure can also be because they're doing some of these gay ink works.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

Like, if they want any donations or any support, I don't think they should get a lot of nations supporting. I think there's better places to put it. But if they don't want to become pariahs and queer and trans communities, that needs to be the message. Like, you need to fight this. You need to fight this hard. You need to fight this now.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

Because to do otherwise, I think is just an act of unforgivable cowardice and treason in wartime. To kind of use a metaphor.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

But, you know, we always end our pieces of tnn because I think. I mean, there was a joke about it I saw recently of, like, it is the sacred role of trans journalism to, you know, unnecessarily scare trans people beyond all measure.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

And I think people should take that to heart that among, like, trans folks, some trans journalism is getting that. And I've termed these pieces panic slop when they're badly sourced. Exaggerate something.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah, yeah. The day we're recording this, the episode came out. So I don't know if, like. If, like some other unhinged thing has happened between now and then. And you're like, wow, why are you not mentioning, like, public mass executions of trans people or some shit? Like, I don't. That is, like, panics up. Like, that's why. Because this is. This is being recorded on the day in which our episode about this dropped. But. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, this panic slop shit is just like.

[David Forbes]

Yeah, but it's, you know, it's become a real problem in some quarters. And. Yeah, I. You know, I think kind of it's to be a nerd. Like, any reckoning with conflict and even, like, the warfare level of conflict is always like, you have to have accurate information. You need to know what actually is a threat, what is not. And I think communities under fire, which we're all part of.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

Have to have that even more so. And especially now. So I tried to exaggerate the very real threats, and the Catholic Church's ban is definitely one of them. But also, like, people have fought this stuff. They fought this stuff even when the odds looked more dire. It can be fought again.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah. Like during the age genocide.

[David Forbes]

Exactly.

[Mia Wong]

They fought them and won.

[David Forbes]

Yeah, exactly. And it can be fought against again and won, but it has to be fought and has to be fought hard.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah, but. And I think. I think the last thing I want to mention is this is something I say a lot with union organizing, but, like, the people in ACT UP who went and fought are just. You. Yeah, there's nothing, like, special about them. They were just people who were forced to act and who took up the fight and did it. Yeah.

[David Forbes]

And I think that actually kind of can transmute something that has been seen as a bad trend within trans communities. I don't think that always is of, like, oh, trans communities, like, crucify their heroes too much. They pillory people too much. In a lot of cases, if it's a public figure, Yonunic McBride, that's done some. Some really terrible stuff. They're acting out of, frankly, a just sense of grievance. But also, I think there should be a shift away from individual figures on pedestals, from looking to, like, a set of leaders to, you know, guide everyone else. I think we're at our strongest when the organizing is coming from everywhere. The fight is coming from everywhere. It's not singular figures. And honestly, I think pedestals are bad for everyone involved. But, you know, and that's exactly what you're saying. Like, people can start acting now. They don't need to, you know, certainly I think it's good to pressure large organizations and figures with power partly Because I think it gives people a sense of empowerment as well as occasionally fear works and they concede and you know, something improves a little bit or something worse is avoided. But also just for like it's just us, y', all, you know, like yeah, that's what's gonna have to solve this.

[Mia Wong]

And that is why we start. I don't know, I don't know if percentage on the episodes that we start with things falling apart but also putting them back together again because we can and we can make it better.

[David Forbes]

They're building something better entirely. Yeah, definitely.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

And on that note, if people want to support Trans News Network, they can find out how to do [e-mail] we are a worker run non profit and kind of trying to set a model for transmedia that's in depth and hard hitting and underpinningly radical.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[David Forbes]

But that also is, you know, is goes in depth and investigates stuff and gives an accurate, accurate picture of what's going on, the threats, but also real victories.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah. And the best reporting on us is going to be done by us.

[David Forbes]

Yes.

[Mia Wong]

So you can help make that possible.

[David Forbes]

We appreciate any support we get. We do a stunning amount on a fairly shoestring budget.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah, it's unreal.

[David Forbes]

I appreciate that compliment. But yeah, it's an awesome crew of people. I am incredibly fortunate to work with all of them and actually shout out to my head here Myra Lazine who did a great job of going, going through this piece and also has done some incredible coverage. But yeah, everyone who works at TNN I'm really fortunate to work with and you know, this is trying to set kind of an alternative in trans journalism that is worker run and is is under pento.

[Mia Wong]

Hell yeah. You too can go to war with the bureaucrats and the theocrats and the politicians who are trying to destroy your life.

[David Forbes]

Indeed,

[Mia Wong]

what could happen here is a

[David Forbes]

production of Cool Zone Media.

[Mia Wong]

For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media Visit our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts you can now find sources for it could happen here listed directly in episode descriptions.

[Serving Pancakes Hosts]

Thanks for listening. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.