The Pro Palestine Movement Two Years After Genocide

Summary

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It Could Happen Here

Episode: The Pro Palestine Movement Two Years After Genocide

Date: November 12, 2025
Host: Donna Elkerd (Cool Zone Media)
Guest: Ahmad Moore (2025 Foundation for Middle East Peace Fellow, author, activist, and analyst)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the evolution of pro-Palestine activism in the United States two years after what the guests and host describe as a genocide in Palestine. Donna Elkerd and Ahmad Moore analyze the shifting frameworks and alliances in the movement, its impact on American politics, changes in organizing strategies, and the future direction of activism both within the Palestinian-American diaspora and in broader coalitions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Introductions and Context Setting

• Donna Elkerd introduces Ahmad Moore, noting his activism, scholarship, and leadership roles.
• Ahmad Moore shares his background: Born in Gaza, immigrated to the US as a child, became politically active post-9/11, and now works primarily on Palestine-Israel and foreign policy issues.

  “I was born in Gaza…moved here when I was a kid…like lots of people was galvanized around that experience [of 9/11 and the Iraq War].” — Ahmad Moore (04:00)

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2. The War on Terror’s Legacy and Its Impact on Palestine Discourse

(Timestamps: 05:07–09:51)

• The War on Terror, especially the Iraq War, created a generational “awareness that we’ve been lied to” by US political elites, leading to a skepticism that has since evolved.

  “That was the, I would say, generational awareness that we’ve been lied to…that came to a head around the Iraq war.” — Ahmad Moore (05:39)

• The impact of those experiences is now visible in both left and right political realignments in the US, with Palestine as a focal point.
• The intersection of Palestine with democracy, elite versus popular opinion, and broader issues of US foreign policy is increasingly recognized.

  “Palestine has become an issue of democracy.” — Donna Elkerd (07:30)

• Major political events, such as the election of Zahran Mamdani as NYC mayor, are interpreted as signs of changing attitudes, but the true measure of the pro-Palestine movement’s success remains debated.

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3. How Pro-Palestine Organizing Has Changed Since the Start of the Genocide

(Timestamps: 14:52–18:58)

• The analytic frame has shifted from seeing Palestine as an isolated “rights-based” issue to viewing it “correctly focused on empire,” seeing parallels between domestic US struggles and US-backed oppression abroad.

  “Now…I think the analysis is very correctly focused on empire…the whole idea of empire for me was an antiquated one. I didn’t think it had a whole lot of relevance today. But…the reality is that empire is intact.” — Ahmad Moore (15:16)

• Increasingly, domestic and foreign policy are being recognized as inseparable, with voters motivated by both in recent US elections.
• Electoral politics are met with deep skepticism; the “uncommitted movement” and the struggle for representation within major parties is highlighted.
• Shift from “rights” framing to deeper critiques of settler colonialism and state legitimacy.

  “We've gone from a contested conversation around 1967...to 1948. That's what we talk about now. And that's correct.” — Ahmad Moore (18:58)

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4. Tensions Around Statehood, Legitimacy, and the National Liberation Project

(Timestamps: 18:59–22:10)

• The discussion within Palestinian and pro-Palestinian communities has moved towards critiquing the concept of the nation-state system and the limitations of statehood as a solution after catastrophic violence.
• Ahmad questions the effectiveness of statehood as a strategy:

  “I don’t believe that a state which has been colonized out of existence...is going to yield real benefits for the people on the ground now.” — Ahmad Moore (21:49)

• Both speakers agree that while international legal frameworks are of some tactical use, they cannot substitute for the transformative change needed on the ground.

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5. Diaspora Experiences, Identity, and Activist Organizing Models

(Timestamps: 26:29–30:40)

• The Palestinian American diaspora is highly integrated and successful by some markers (education, professional achievement), but has lacked “aggression and organization” in political advocacy due to career risks and social costs.

  “Where the diaspora hasn’t...done as effective a job...I don’t know that we’re as aggressive and organized as we could be.” — Ahmad Moore (27:13)

• Intersectionality among activist coalitions has grown, and today’s most dynamic organizing emerges from multi-issue, multi-ethnic movements rather than solely Palestinian organizations.

  “I'd say that the most potent discussions around Palestine are coming from left organizing groups, not exactly Palestinian organizing groups.” — Ahmad Moore (28:51)

• There's a healthy self-critique about ingratiating with established political powers instead of demanding power or setting new terms, as more radical groups have done with noticeable impact.

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6. Limitations of the Movement and Reflections on Strategy

(Timestamps: 31:06–34:30)

• There's a call to focus locally, prioritize principle over deference to divided or ineffective leadership, and pursue arms embargoes, sanctions, and cultural boycotts as part of a principled American stance.
• A somber reflection that, despite gains, Western advocacy did not prevent the genocide, and the continuity of Palestinian life inside historic Palestine remains gravely threatened.

  “I used to believe in one state for everybody with equal rights. Today, I think the writing is on the wall for the Palestinians in Palestine. The ethnic cleansing of Palestine is proceeding.” — Ahmad Moore (32:38)

• Hope must be balanced with radical self-reflection and a willingness to envision new solutions.

  “Nothing we did…actually stopped that. And that is a very hard pill to swallow. I hope…that will allow us to get to the place of self reflection about what radical solutions look like.” — Donna Elkerd (34:30)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On generational political disillusionment:
  “That was…the generational awareness that we’ve been lied to…We were lied into that war.” — Ahmad Moore (05:39)
• On the transformation of Palestine discourse:
  “Palestine went from being a niche issue…to being really part of the American story today.” — Ahmad Moore (08:17)
• On coalition-building:
  “[Today] activists have a much more complete sense of how you almost have a social quilt and a compression on one part of it will impact everything else that's…related to it.” — Ahmad Moore (28:51)
• On the failure to stop the genocide:
  “We never were able to prevent that genocide. Nothing we did…actually stopped that. And that is a very hard pill to swallow.” — Donna Elkerd (34:30)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Introduction & Context: 02:23–05:07
• War on Terror & Generational Politics: 05:07–09:51
• Academia, Censorship, & Democracy: 10:07–11:12
• Taboo-Breaking & Organizing Shifts: 14:52–18:58
• Statehood Debate & Legitimacy: 18:59–22:10
• Diaspora and Intersectional Organizing: 26:29–30:40
• Movement Limitations & Future Strategies: 31:06–34:30

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Conclusion

This episode offers a nuanced, critical look at the evolution of the pro-Palestine movement in America after two years of ongoing violence in Gaza and the West Bank. Donna Elkerd and Ahmad Moore map the changed analytical frameworks, the growth of intersectional coalitions, the limits of state-based solutions, and the deep political realignments taking place in the US. The conversation ends with a call for radical honesty and reflection, recognizing both successes and heartbreaking failures—and the increased urgency for bold, principled strategies moving forward.

Transcript

[Donna Elkerd]

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[Donna Elkerd]

Call Zone Media hello everyone, this is Dana Elkerd for It Could Happen Here. I'm a professor and analyst of Palestinian and Arab politics and today we're joined by Ahmad Moore, who is the 2025 foundation for Middle East Peace Fellow. He's also an author, an activist, just very, very involved in the Palestinian space and on the question of Palestinian liberation. So I've invited Ahmad today to discuss with us what we can understand about pro Palestine organizing in the past two years in comparison to prior to October 7, 2023, and think kind of analytically about where we can go from here. We're recording this on November 5, 2025. We had a very interesting night last night where Zahran Mamdani was named the mayor of New York City. And a lot of think pieces sense about how this means nothing, and actually it means everything. And the pro Palestine movement is winning. It's really not winning enough, et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah, we're in an interesting moment in American politics. I think the Palestine question is obviously very, very relevant. So, yeah. Ahmed, welcome to the podcast.

[Ahmad Moore]

Thank you, Donna. Huge pleasure to be here.

[Donna Elkerd]

All right, so maybe we can start with kind of an introduction to yourself. You can tell us about your experience as an activist, as an organizer.

[Ahmad Moore]

Sure. Yes.

[Donna Elkerd]

As a researcher. Yeah.

[Ahmad Moore]

So I was born in Gaza. In Palestine. In Gaza, in Rafah. And my family moved here when I was a kid and became naturalized, so American citizen when I was 10 years old. So that in mid-90s. And, you know, went to college right after 9 11. And like lots of people was. Was galvanized around that experience. I think there was a period I was so a journalist both in Beirut and in Cairo. And often you'd meet American journalists roughly, of my generation, and all of them would indicate that, you know, I became engaged around the Middle east because of 9 11. I think 911 was, for our generation, a big learning opportunity for people. The global war on terror, the war in Iraq galvanized a lot of the left. And I'm thinking now of moveon.org and so this is really the environment that I grew up in. Today I mostly work with the Guardian, with the Nation, mostly write about Palestine, Israel and American foreign policy. And as you mentioned, I'm a fellow at the foundation for Middle East Peace, where I host a podcast, Occupied Thoughts, where we spend a lot of time thinking through policy matters related to Palestine. I have ideas about how things have changed, but that's just a quick introduction to me and my work.

[Donna Elkerd]

No, thank you. We're approximately the same age. I won't tell you exactly how off. But yeah, I just. I'm reflecting so much these days on how much the war on terror was a formative moment politically for our generation and its interaction with the Palestinian issue. I think that's starting to really be understood more widely. I think maybe it was more fringe or a very select kind of understanding of the left would have that kind of analysis.

[Ahmad Moore]

For sure. Just to put a fine point on it. I mean, that was the, I would say, generational awareness that we've been lied to. We've been lied to by Dick Cheney, George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, all of that cohort. Those people.

[Donna Elkerd]

People.

[Ahmad Moore]

You can see how that's rebounded today in Maine with Graham Platner, somebody who fought two or three tours and then subsequently worked as a mercenary with Blackwater, was radicalized, I would say, through that experience when he was watching these happy go lucky diplomats swimming in, in pools, in a diplomatic compound when just outside a savage war was, was being waged or an insurgency. So I, I would say that, you know, Palestine is, is so deeply interwoven. Palestine has a long history of having been lied to for people here in the United States domestically. That came to a head around the Iraq war. We were lied into that war. And I think you saw, you saw the, the way that the Biden administration particularly stuck with the playbook and alienated huge numbers of voters in 2024.

[Donna Elkerd]

Right.

[Ahmad Moore]

So, so Palestine is kind of indispensable to understanding how our elites in the United States have been captured by special interests, by corporatist interests. And we're beginning to see that, I think, rebound in meaningful ways. And of course, congratulations to Zoran Mamdani. Done a wonderful job. He ran an extraordinary campaign. I question, though, whether the campaign could have been successful without the awakening that occurred through two years of genocide. And what I mean by that specifically is so many of the, the taboos that, that had been enforced around identity, around good politics in America were dispensed with because those taboos were employed to suppress opposition to genocide.

[Donna Elkerd]

Yeah, no, I think you're right on the money on that. I mean, in some ways, the MAGA movement and Donald Trump also capitalized on the lies of the war on terror too. I mean, despite the incoherence of the MAGA movement, like that was part of, you know, a rebuke of the neocons. But of course, the left is, is especially after two years of unspeakable genocide. I think it has led to just an articulation of how much the American foreign policy in the Middle east is. You mentioned boomerang. That's an imperial boomerang that is impacting American politics. It's also highlighted how much the elite and public opinion is bifurcated on this. Palestine has become an issue of democracy. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that's, that's what I would say.

[Ahmad Moore]

No, I, I think that's correct. I agree with that. I mean, so Palestine went from being specifically Palestine and from being a niche issue. When I was in college, post colonial studies, Majors knew about Palestine and could integrate Palestine into an understanding of life in America, to being really part of the American story today. And I think it's apt to describe it that way. The experience of watching a genocide unfold for two years has been radicalizing for many, but it's also been enlightening in that the first question was, why is this happening? The second question is, why can't we stop it? Okay, Israel's an independent country. We can't control them, fine. Why are we still supporting this? And then ultimately you end up going down that rabbit hole and arriving at what is this Israel lobby? What is a special interest? And so I think the, the degree of complicity, the way in which the Biden administration blew so much smoke, the way in which both sides of the aisle engaged in genocide and cheered the genocide, really has, has caused the, the Palestine issue to become deeply interwoven with the experience of being American today. And I don't think that's an overstatement. And I think concretely it means that you need an answer to the question, well, if you can't stand up to, to genocide, if you can't stand up for defenseless children in Palestine, and if you're going to lie to me about it, why would I expect you to stand up for anything meaningful as it relates to my standard of living? Say I'm a working class person. And so it's become this litmus test, at least on the left. And I think you're seeing a similar dynamic play out on the right, but for totally different reasons.

[Donna Elkerd]

Right, right.

[Ahmad Moore]

And it's been extraordinary to behold because I think so many of us who've been in this issue for so long, we've been marking our progress in incrementalist terms, and then suddenly things have broken wide open and the world is changing very, very quickly.

[Donna Elkerd]

Yeah. From my vantage point in American academia, I mean, they might have had personal feelings about Israel, Palestine, they may have had sympathies, but so few people would ever talk about the erasure of Palestine in the academy or the impact of censorship and attacks on academic freedom. But now, because the Palestinian issue is being used as this cudgel to attack higher education, like you're just a normal Joe Schmo, like math professor, you're gonna have to care. And you do. And we're seeing this very much with the mobilization of the American association of University Professors. That is not a Middle east specific organization whatsoever. But they are. They, they recognize the linkages between these issues. So in the ways that Palestine is interwoven with, but also has impacted so many of our current realities and the policies that we're facing by the Trump administration and the Biden administration before them. Yeah, I think it's very clear to a lot of people.

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[Ahmad Moore]

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[Donna Elkerd]

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[Donna Elkerd]

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[Donna Elkerd]

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[Donna Elkerd]

What was that like for you to soft launch into the show?

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[Donna Elkerd]

So that actually brings me to one of the main questions that I wanted to ask you is aside from kind of this increased awareness and the taboos that have been broken around the discussion of Palestine and its integration in American foreign policy and American domestic policy, what are some other ways that you think since the genocide began that pro Palestine organizing has changed?

[Ahmad Moore]

So the biggest thing I've seen is that the analytical frame has changed. We used to talk about foreign policy, adventurism, wars for oil, those kinds of things. Now I think the analysis is very correctly focused on empire, the way in which resources domestically, the real working class effort to build a life in the United States is subsumed by wars of really imperial overreach. The whole idea of empire for me was an antiquated one. I didn't think had a whole lot of relevance today. But I think I and many others who may have thought in that way missed the point. The reality is that empire is intact. I think that awareness that our efforts domestically are deeply, deeply intertwined with what's happening, what we're doing elsewhere is important and it's emergent. It's new. When I was in graduate school, you would hear people talk about how they were engaged with domestic policy or people talk about their interest in foreign policy. And I was mostly interested in foreign policy. But today to try to draw that differentiation is really meaningless. And again, you see that in the race in New York. Mamdani did run on affordability. He ran on a Domestic policy program. But equally, 38%, I think, of voters were heavily motivated by his foreign policy interests and his foreign policy perspectives, which again, from a policy point of view he can't really impact, but nonetheless are supported by this idea that our taxes, what we do domestically is having a huge impact everywhere else in the world and that American empire is sprawling and a challenge for people domestically as well. From a pure activist point of view. You know, I, I used to have a, a real belief in, in electoral politics that was shaken deeply through the dnc, through the, the grassroots effort to be heard.

[Donna Elkerd]

Uncommitted.

[Ahmad Moore]

Yeah, the uncommitted movement. Precisely. We'll see where things go. I mean the truth is that, you know, the, the person who was just elected in Jersey is a, is a typical, I believe, APAC Democrat Mike Sherrill. My perspective domestically is that we need to be aggressive, we need to be forceful in calling for a total reconstitution party, no half measures. And I think Zoran Mandani did a good job of illustrating what that could look like.

[Donna Elkerd]

Yeah, I mean there's always a tension in this very money captured system that we have that at certain level it doesn't really matter, liberal or Republican, they are captured. But I think what the New York City race has demonstrated is like that can only go so far. You still need some public support, which is why of course they're going after gerrymandering and all of that. But yeah, it's an uphill battle. But I think if this democracy is to exist, we are in a better footing than we were, you know, on, on this discussion. I also am wondering what you think of this characterization, which is that I think before this genocide, and I don't mean to create this binary, but it has been a very transformative event. Before this genocide, I think a lot of Palestinian American organizing in spaces discussed the issue of Palestine in a rights based approach way. So about human rights, about ending apartheid, about extending rights. And I think the framing for that has also changed. It is really a critique of settler colonialism and the legitimacy of these nation states. First of all, what do you think of that characterization on my end, but also what do you think of the tension then that poses for the Palestinian national liberation movement that still wants a state.

[Ahmad Moore]

Yeah, you're right. Again, the analytic frame has shifted. We've gone from a contested conversation around 1967, the June War, when Israel captured the west bank from Jordan, Gaza from Egypt, Jerusalem as well from Jordan, the Golan Heights from Syria, and a small sliver of Land from Lebanon to 1948. That's what we talk about now. And that's correct. And I think for many Palestinians or Palestinian Americans, that has always been the starting point of the conversation. Conversation. But now we have the political legitimacy to say, wait a second, this whole state was founded upon separate and unequal, on Jewish supremacy, on, on a. On a point of view that we reject as, as Americans and we should reject everywhere in the world. And so I think that that's the first meaningful change that I've seen when we talk about Palestine. And then, of course, settler colonialism is built into that analysis. Things get a little bit different when you zoom out. Let me just talk about domestic. I think that when you talk to people on the left, the universalist argument, everybody's created equal, is very, very powerful and resonant, and it's the one that I believe in. But what's happening on the right as well is an America first argument. And the word protectorate comes up repeatedly. Why are we investing so much in a protectorate? Tucker Carlson, powerfully, I think, and for his audience, and this is probably the most influential commentator in the United States today, but powerfully, you know, said that this country has half the size, half the economy of the state of Connecticut. Why have we invested so much political capital, so much money, and something which is so immaterial, especially when it pays a big negative dividend in lots of different ways? So, so the, the nativist argument is meeting the universalist argument, but the core analysis around settled or colonialism, around the lack of legitimacy for a supremacist state, gives rise to both of those arguments. It acts as the substrate, I would say, Palestinians who want to see a Palestinian state. Now you're going back to Palestine. I don't know what that means. Today. I've heard perspectives that, you know, availing ourselves of statehood as a legal construct will mean that you can now access legal frameworks to pursue justice in the courts wherever they may exist. I hope that's true. Let's see if it works out. I think there are people who are trying to take Israeli men, dual nationals who participated in the genocide to court in France. I think by using some of the, some of the laws that exist between recognized states and non states, or maybe the UK let's see if rubber meets road there. I support those tactics, but practically, when you're talking about Palestinian liberation, I, I don't believe that a state which has been colonized out of existence, and you kind of have to look at a map to see what I mean here. But the west bank is thoroughly colonized, Gaza is still occupied by the Israelis and will likely be slowly ethnically cleansed over time and not rebuilt. I fail to see how a state, a legal construct, is going to yield real benefits for the people on the ground now in Palestine.

[Donna Elkerd]

I agree 100%, and I think that the continuation of this framework, the statehood framework that a lot of our kind of political elites in the Palestinian landscape continue to use and a lot of these countries in the global north use also to bypass the work that actually needs to be done after a genocide. It's certainly a distraction in my view, but it also speaks to the renewal that needs to happen within Palestinian politics and within the plo. But that's a bigger matter.

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[Ahmad Moore]

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[Kyle McLaughlin]

I'm Kyle McLaughlin. You might know me as that guy from Twin Peaks, Sex and the City, or just the Internet's dad. I have a new podcast called what Are We Even Doing? Where I embark on a noble quest to understand the brilliant chaos of youth culture.

[Sad Oligarch Podcast Narrator]

Daddy's looking good.

[Kyle McLaughlin]

Each week I invite someone fascinating to join me. Actors, musicians, creatives, highly evolved digital life forms. And we talk about what they love. Sometimes I'll drizzle a little honey in.

[Ahmad Moore]

There too, from feeling sexy in the morning.

[Kyle McLaughlin]

What keeps them going?

[Donna Elkerd]

And you're maybe my biggest competition on social media.

[Ahmad Moore]

Like when a kid says bra to.

[Kyle McLaughlin]

Me and how they're navigating this high speed roller coaster we call reality.

[Donna Elkerd]

In Australia, you're looking out for snakes, spiders and boys, right?

[Ahmad Moore]

Hey, he's no chain.

[Kyle McLaughlin]

McDougall Chow.

[Donna Elkerd]

This is like the comments section of my Instagram.

[Kyle McLaughlin]

Join me and my delightful guests every Thursday and let's get weird together in a good way. Listen to what are we even doing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, it's Ed Helms. And welcome back to snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new Snafu Every single episode.

[Donna Elkerd]

32 lost nuclear weapons. You're like, wait, stop.

[Michael Lewis]

What?

[Ed Helms]

Ernie Shackleton sounds like a solid 70s basketball player who still wore knee Pads. Yes. It's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of guests. The great Paul Scheer made me feel good. I'm like, oh, wow, Angela and Jenna, I am so psyched you're here.

[Donna Elkerd]

What was that like for you to soft launch into the show?

[Ed Helms]

Sorry, Jenna, I'll be asking the questions today.

[True Crime Podcast Narrator]

I forgot whose podcast we were doing.

[Ed Helms]

Nick Kroll. I hope this story is good enough to get you to toss that sandwich. So let's, let's, let's see how it goes. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sad Oligarch Podcast Narrator]

The Rich Russians Falling out of Windows podcast is back. Sad oligarch season two. Since we left you in 2023 after season one, many politically motivated Russian millionaires have continued to die in suspicious circumstances. We dig deeper into these odd deaths, which include everything from, from mushroom poisoning and mysterious heart attacks to window clumsiness and suicide by decapitation. One thing we have found since we started back in 2022 is the information on the suspicious deaths has become much harder to find. Not just that, it seems as if state controlled media in Russia is being utilized to purposely confuse and contradict the reporting that gets put out. As you can probably imagine, season two gets very weird. Listen to Sad Oligarch on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Donna Elkerd]

My next question was going to be on the Palestinian American Diaspora. In what ways do you think the Palestinian American diaspora is alike with people in historic Palestine, with other diasporas? And in what ways do you think that they're unique?

[Ahmad Moore]

That's a hard question for me to answer. I think the diaspora and the way that I've interacted with people is diverse. What people have in common is a common reference point, the necba. They have a common understanding around the legitimacy of Israel as an ethno state, which takes Jewish supremacy as its point of departure. But it's a very diverse diaspora. I mean, our first Palestinian American in Congress is Justin Amash, who is on the right.

[Donna Elkerd]

That's right. I always forget about him.

[Ahmad Moore]

Yeah, I mean, he had relatives who were murdered in Gaza at a church in northern Gaza which dates back to, I think, the 11th century. So we're a diverse diaspora. I think the Palestinian diaspora in the United States is integrated, it's educated. That's the passport for lots of Palestinians around the world. It's how you get out. It's how you build a life. We have a very high literacy rate in Palestine, exceeds 99.5%. But I think where the diaspora hasn't, at least the United States done as effective a job. And this is kind of the natural trajectory, I think, of diaspora communities generally. I don't know that we're as aggressive and organized as we could be. And I want to emphasize the word aggressive, the idea that we can go out and compete at all levels of government, that we can go out and assert our understanding of history backed by facts. We should be doing more of that, especially when you look kind of across the board when it comes to people who are doing well in medicine or in business, where there's been a real career risk for speaking out and for being assertive. We can do more now, and we should use the leverage gained through two years of genocide, the most expensive access to leverage I can imagine, to push much harder politically.

[Donna Elkerd]

Yeah, that's a very good point. I'm also wondering how well you think the Palestinian organizing groups and spaces, how well integrated are they into other activist issue areas?

[Ahmad Moore]

Yeah, I think this is where when I was in college, I didn't know the word intersectionality. That wasn't a concept. That really was one that people thought about. You know, you would host an event and you would invite your friends, some of whom would be in the black students group, some of whom would be in the queer students group, and just regular left groups. But today I'd say that activists have a much more complete sense of how you almost have a social quilt and a compression on one part of it will impact everything else that's that's related to it. And we're all interrelated in that way. I'd say that the most potent discussions around Palestine are coming from left organizing groups, not exactly Palestinian organizing groups. I think if I could offer gentle criticism of Palestine organizers, there's been too much, and you saw this with uncommitted too much effort to ingratiate yourselves to the existing power apparatus, to ask for a seat at the table when it's somebody like Zoran Mamdani again who demanded a seat at the table through an unrelenting focus on the issues, achieved access to a platform that nobody wanted to cede. And I don't think that following the rules exactly, or being friendly about accessing platforms within the Democratic Party is going to yield a huge benefit to Palestinian Americans or people here. I'd say the most principled organizing is the organizing that's going to win. And today that comes from non Palestinian Groups, and I'm okay with that. I don't really think it matters if the best argument is coming from somebody whose family comes from South Asia through Uganda or somebody whose family emerges from the Balato refugee camp. That doesn't really matter to me. I think just to focus on the principles is the most important thing.

[Donna Elkerd]

Yeah, right, right. I think we're definitely seeing more of an acceptance of that. I agree with the limitations that you referenced. I also sometimes do reflect on how matched the discussion is in the United States with the discussion in historic Palestine and what activists can do to kind of bridge some gaps that might emerge. But of course, understanding that we do exist in a different political reality and we obviously will develop different views as a result of that.

[Ahmad Moore]

I agree. And look, I mean, nobody needs to be apologetic about inhabiting a different reality. You know, we don't need to defer to a leadership which is divided, divided in Palestine, a PLO that won't talk to itself. And there are structural reasons for that. Right. I mean, the Israelis and the Americans have done a very effective job in splintering Palestinian leadership. I think we need to think extremely locally. There are issues that matter to my community in West Philadelphia, bigger issues across Pennsylvania that impact my life, that impact my life as a father of three little girls. So I think being a member of a community and focusing again relentlessly on the principles and the facts that we've known all along is critical to pushing the conversation on Palestine forward. And practically today, for me, that means an arms embargo, it means sanctions, it means a cultural boycott, and it means those things unapologetically. Again, those are principled positions that I can take as an American citizen, a citizen of a country which has underwritten genocide, has underwritten apartheid for decades.

[Donna Elkerd]

Yep, I think I agree with that analysis. As the author, which we didn't mention at the beginning, as the author, one of the co authors of After Zionism with Anthony Lowenstein, I'm going to pose a difficult question for you. No, I'm just joking. Not that you have to answer it fully, but where do you think we go from here? Where do you think the pro Palestine movement goes from here? And if you can reflect in your answer on where we've stalled as well.

[Ahmad Moore]

Yeah, so I used to believe in one state for everybody with equal rights. Today, I think the writing is on the wall for the Palestinians in Palestine. The ethnic cleansing of Palestine is proceeding. The fact that Gaza has been utterly destroyed, utterly destroyed. There are no universities, no schools, no really functioning hospitals. The basic infrastructure required for the maintenance of life doesn't exist there anymore. That's part of why it's a genocide. We've got to take that reality into account. The Palestinians in Gaza, the Palestinians in Palestine generally have the right to pursue life. They have a right to an education, they have a right to self actualization. And many of them, when they can, they're going to leave. That's the ethnic cleansing program. That's the idea behind the mass destruction of Palestine. The Israelis have succeeded in that regard. I would say. We need to be mindful of that. We need to be aware of that. So what I think will happen ultimately is that you'll end up with some rump community of Palestinians in Palestine who are eventually, when an arms embargo is enacted, and I hope it's within our lifetimes when the sanctions are enacted, when Israel is forced to, to become a normal country with equal rights for all will continue to exist in that space. I don't know, you know, I can't predict, nobody can really predict what's certainty, what's going to happen. But the kinds of pressure required to cause Israel to become a de radicalized normal society will take time to produce. And in the interim, the writing is on the wall for the Palestinians in Palestine. And I think that's the saddest for me part of all of this. The continuity of Palestinian life in Palestine is not guaranteed. You know, the overwhelming force of the state exists in one place and that's, that's in Israel.

[Donna Elkerd]

Yeah, that's why I, when a lot of people talk positively about the developments of the past two years, of course you want to feel hope, you want to highlight how the discussion has changed here in America, how politics is moving forward. You want to have some pathway. But we never were able to prevent that genocide. Nothing we did in any avenue. All of us have different positionalities, engaged with different actors. None of it actually stopped that. And that is a very hard pill to swallow. I hope, I've always been hoping that at least that will allow us to get to the place of self reflection about what radical solutions look like in the aftermath of this kind of disaster. And yeah, I hope that that's where we go from here on my end. Yeah. Thank you so much, Ahmad. This has been a really enriching discussion and I think that the listeners will benefit from this overarching view of pro Palestine activism and its intersections with everything we're, we're seeing unfold. So thank you so much again.

[Ahmad Moore]

Thank you Donna. It's been a huge pleasure.

[Donna Elkerd]

It could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website coolzone media.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for it could happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.

[True Crime Podcast Narrator]

You know that big bargain detergent jug is 80% water, right? It doesn't clean as well.

[Donna Elkerd]

80% water.

[True Crime Podcast Narrator]

I thought I was getting a better deal because it's so big. If you want a better clean, Tide pods are only 12% water. The rest is pure, concentrated cleaning ingredients.

[Donna Elkerd]

Oh, let me make an announcement.

[Ahmad Moore]

Attention shoppers, if you want a real deal, try Tide Pods.

[True Crime Podcast Narrator]

Stop paying for watered down detergents. Pay for clean. If it's gotta be clean, it's gotta be Tide Pods. Water content based on the leading bargain liquid detergent. The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Gain Super Flings Advertiser]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns.

[True Crime Podcast Narrator]

Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad free, subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Donna Elkerd]

I knew it was a bomb the second that it exploded. I felt it rip through me.

[Ed Helms]

In season two of Rip Current, we ask who tried to kill Judy Berry and why.

[Dutch Vet Advertiser]

They were climbing trees and they were.

[Ahmad Moore]

Sabotaging logging equipment in the woods. She received death threats before the bombing. She received more threats after the bombing. I think that this is a deliberate attempt to sabotage our movement.

[Ed Helms]

Episodes of Rip Current Season 2 are available now. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ahmad Moore]

I'm Jonathan Goldstein and on the new season of Heavyweight. And so I pointed the gun at him and said, this isn't a joke. A man who robbed a bank when he was 14 years old and a centenarian rediscovers a love lost 80 years ago. How can 101-year-old woman fall in love again? Listen to heavyweight on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Donna Elkerd]

This is an iHeart podcast.