It Could Happen Here: "What Does the Antifa Executive Order Mean for Free Speech?"

Date: October 2, 2025
Host: James (Cool Zone Media)
Guest: Maura Meltzer Cohen ("Mo"), Abolitionist, Attorney, and Educator

Overview

This episode examines the legal and practical implications of the Trump Administration’s recent executive orders labeling "Antifa" as a domestic terrorist organization following the assassination of Charlie Kirk. Host James welcomes guest attorney Maura Meltzer Cohen to clarify what, if anything, has legally changed for activists and justice movements, how state power is maneuvering in the current political climate, and practical advice for those at risk of targeted repression. The episode aims to separate fear and hype from legal reality, while acknowledging the broader chilling effect and historical context of state repression.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Changed Legally with the Executive Order?

(04:32 - 07:06)

• Mo: Legally, "essentially nothing" has changed. The executive orders are alarming but do not make previously legal activities illegal.
  • "Nothing that was legal last week is illegal this week, certainly not because of those statements." (05:08)
  • The state cannot prosecute you for activities retroactively declared illegal; neither anti-fascist beliefs nor assemblies are crimes under current law.
  • To change this, the administration would have to change the law or "dispense with the law"—neither of which is straightforward.

2. Executive Orders vs. Actual Law and Repression

(09:51 - 12:55)

• Distinction between law, political discourse, and raw power:
  • Executive orders are policy statements, not legislation.
  • While these orders don’t have the force of law, they may still embolden harassment and extra-legal repression.
  • Chilling effect: These pronouncements are designed as much to intimidate and disrupt as to effect legal change.
• Mo: "The fact that an executive order doesn't change the law does not mean an executive order will not result in a lot more state repression or that it won't disrupt movements or even ruin lives." (12:55)

3. First Amendment Realities: Flag Burning and Free Expression

(08:03 – 09:22)

• Supreme Court (Texas v Johnson) and congressional statute confirm flag burning remains protected speech.
  • "No flag burning remains protected regardless of what the president or Congress says about it." (08:03)
• Arrests based on public stunts may be for unrelated offenses, but the First Amendment remains robust (in theory).

4. Difference Between Political Targeting, Surveillance, and Prosecution

(09:51 – 12:11)

• Surveillance and harassment can increase even without new laws.
• Political beliefs and associations continue to be constitutionally protected; prosecutions require illegal conduct, not ideology.

5. Repression is Not New—It’s a Matter of Scale, Not Kind

(12:55 – 15:33)

• State repression of leftists and anarchists predates Trump; current orders exploit and amplify long-standing government practices.
  • The Biden administration (and earlier) helped lay groundwork with policies targeting “political extremists.”

6. Narrative Manipulation and ‘State of Exception’

(16:16 – 19:00)

• Executive actions help solidify chilling narratives: the goal is as much about demoralizing and destabilizing activist groups as about launching successful prosecutions.
• Mo: "Pointing out the hypocrisy is not going to be particularly useful ... making narrative claims that are totally unsupportable and muddying the waters in this really fundamental way is part of the project." (16:39)
• Comparisons to Carl Schmitt: normalizing the idea of unconstrained executive power and undermining legal constraints.

7. Practical Effects: Doxxing, Social Fallout, and Funding Attacks

(25:13 – 32:13)

• Doxxing (public exposure) and employment/funding consequences are real and disruptive, but distinct from criminal prosecution.
  • Police have long visited people based on their online speech, but First Amendment protections persist.
• New targets include mainstream liberal nonprofit workers and funders, not only radicals.
  • Most groups being targeted have “nothing whatsoever to do with antifa by any stretch of the imagination.” (32:38)

8. Anticipatory Compliance & Institutional Capitulation

(32:38 – 36:01)

• Universities and NGOs are self-censoring and capitulating to allegations (e.g., anti-Semitism accusations), retreating out of fear rather than legal necessity.
  • Mo: "If any of these universities actually bothered to challenge these allegations, I think they would win in court on the law. ... what we're seeing instead is the universities declining to challenge, ... and capitulating in ways that are unnecessary, unwarranted, not legally justified, irrational, and seed more ground ... than is even being asked for." (34:11)

9. Best Practices: Financial Transparency and Legal Readiness

(36:01 – 39:32)

• Community bail funds and mutual aid organizations must maintain meticulous financial records—wire fraud and money laundering are likely vectors of attack.
  • "If you run a bail fund ... have to be very careful about how you raise that money and how you monitor and track and use that money." (39:32)
• For all, the key advice for law enforcement interactions: say nothing but request counsel.

10. RICO, Conspiracy, and the Limits of Prosecution

(48:17 – 51:52)

• RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act) requires proof of specific criminal acts and a coordinated enterprise. Ideology and association alone are not enough.
  • "Saying we want to go after antifa is like saying we want to go after people who like cats..." (49:17)
• Precedents (including failed anti-abortion racketeering cases) suggest these prosecutions are difficult to maintain if challenged.
• The dropped charges in the Stop Cop City case underscore: “When we fight, we win.”

11. "Domestic Terrorist Organization"—No Such Legal Status

(56:12 – 59:23)

• There is no legal mechanism to designate a domestic group as a terrorist organization; only foreign organizations (per State Dept) carry that designation with legal consequences.
  • Material support laws relate only to foreign terrorist organizations.

12. Terrorism Enhancements—Conduct vs. Association

(60:06 – 61:59)

• Terrorism enhancements affect sentencing for specific criminal acts, not group designation or beliefs.
  • "The difference is between criminalizing conduct ... and criminalizing a group. ... You cannot designate a group, a belief, or an expression as being a crime in itself unless there is conduct associated with it." (60:12)

13. Advice for Justice Movements & The Path Forward

(62:24 – 65:00)

• Stay vigilant, especially regarding finances.
• Right to remain silent: Don’t speak to law enforcement without an attorney.
• The solution to repression is not self-censorship, but courage, discretion, and mutual support.
  • "We keep ourselves safe by refusing to submit to this fear ... and more importantly, we persist by being confident in the fact that no matter what, our communities are going to rally around and care for each other." (64:45)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Legal Change:

  • "Nothing that was legal last week is illegal this week, certainly not because of those statements."
    — Mo Meltzer Cohen (05:08)

• On Power vs. Law:

  • "There is a difference importantly between law and power. And there is certainly at least some daylight between the legal constraints on state power and the state's power to ignore those constraints."
    — Mo Meltzer Cohen (09:51)

• On Chilling Effects:

  • "Saying that it doesn't change the law does not mean it isn't dangerous."
    — Mo Meltzer Cohen (12:55)

• On Narrative Manipulation:

  • "Pointing out the hypocrisy is not going to be particularly useful ... it's part of the political point."
    — Mo Meltzer Cohen (16:39)

• On Capitulation:

  • "...Universities declining to challenge these allegations, settling out of court, paying large amounts of money to the allegedly aggrieved parties, and capitulating in ways that are unnecessary..."
    — Mo Meltzer Cohen (34:11)

• On RICO Charges:

  • "Saying we want to go after antifa is like saying we want to go after people who like cats."
    — Mo Meltzer Cohen (49:17)

• On Protecting Movements:

  • "The solution to repression is not self censorship, but courage... discretion is the better part of valor. And not everything needs to be said on the Internet."
    — Mo Meltzer Cohen (37:03)

• On Community Safety:

  • "We keep ourselves safe by refusing to submit to this fear, refusing to comply in advance...and more importantly, we persist by being confident...our communities are going to rally around and care for each other."
    — Mo Meltzer Cohen (64:45)

Important Timestamps

• [04:32] – Introduction of Mo Meltzer Cohen and beginning legal analysis
• [08:03] – Flag burning, First Amendment rights clarified
• [09:51] – Difference between law, power, and political narrative
• [12:55] – Limits of executive action and enduring state repression
• [16:39] – Narrative manipulation and the futility of hypocrisy-calling
• [32:38] – Non-Antifa groups facing new attacks
• [36:01] – NGO and university capitulation; importance of resistance and legal fight
• [48:17] – RICO and conspiracy charges explained
• [56:12] – "Domestic terrorism" is not an actionable legal category
• [62:24] – Best practices and legal self-defense for activists

Tone & Language

The tone is analytical, sober, and infused with quietly urgent solidarity. Mo combines legal specificity with movement experience, while host James maintains approachable skepticism, encouraging plain-language demystification. The conversation is forthright about both risks and the limits of state power—never dismissive of danger, but always grounded in the realities of law, history, and movement resilience.

Final Advice for Listeners & Activists

• Stay informed and understand your rights—especially around protest and funding.
• Do not speak to law enforcement without your attorney present.
• Prioritize financial transparency for your organization or collective.
• Don’t let fear enforce self-censorship; mutual support remains key.
• Legal repression is likely to escalate—but so too will opportunities to resist and prevail, especially when institutions stand up for constitutional principles.

For legal support, contact the National Lawyers Guild Anti-Repression Hotline: 212-679-2811

This summary skips non-content segments (ads, fiction podcast promos, outros).