B (6:00)

Yeah.

C (6:01)

And this has made things really hard for the people on the ground. Many people are trapped in the airports, on the borders. So this is, this is something that's happening to the people outside of Iran. But inside Iran, there is massive bombings everywhere. Wherever the, the, the IRG or the intelligence service has a facility.

B (6:22)

Yeah.

C (6:22)

And at the same time, the regime has cut off the Internet. Even the normal phone lines barely work. And it's just so hard and almost impossible to get really precise information about what's happening in the cities and the towns around. Just like what happened in the. In the early January, like during the process, only a few people have access to the Internet, and it's very limited. Yeah, they share some videos with channels and, like, with news agencies, but it's very limited. For example, in my hometown today, some of the major IRGC bases and intelligence facilities that were some of the most important ones in western side of Iran, or as we call it, Iranian Kurdistan or Rochelat, they were all bombed. And I've been trying to contact people to see what happened. Exactly. I'm sure that there are civilians killed because the regime also has put all these bases inside the cities, near parks, near hospitals, near schools, near just random houses in the city. So a lot of people are possibly killed, but we don't know how many. Who are they? So this is, this is also, like, not just in my city, in other cities too. It's the same. This is also something that a lot of people are not talking about. But again, this is war. And the bombings are so heavy and they're all being carried out with really advanced weapons, and it's just so hard. And when I talk to the people outside of Iran, the people in Europe, like some of my friends, relatives, everybody's worried that what if one of my relatives, what if one of my, one of my friends gets get killed randomly on the street? But because of this, that people are seeing this also on the news, at least I know this from my family, because I was able to talk to them two nights ago. Everybody's staying home. They have enough food for a few weeks, and they're just watching the news. They don't go out. Yeah, they're just trying to stay safe. But at the same time, in major cities like Burmea, for example, the people who have a house outside of the city or in a village or if they have relatives outside of the city, they have moved out because it's, it's. It's generally safer. There are not many IRGC bases or like, government. Government buildings or whatever in the villages and in smaller towns. So this is also happening, and people are trying to stay safe as much as possible. And yeah, this is, this is something that's going on. And at the same time, when I talk to the people, I mean, I haven't been able to properly talk to anyone because the Internet is really bad. But, like, I talk to my family and they told me that the food prices are really, really, really high, and it's really Hard to buy food now because everybody's panicking, and there are shortages. Like, there's. Some items cannot be found. Some, like, essential items like, I don't know, oil, meat, and rice and things like that. It's. It's. It's too hard to find in the market.

B (9:30)

Yeah.

C (9:31)

And a lot of people are going to the. To the gas stations to get some gas and to be prepared if something happens. But, yeah, so this is also something that's going on, and people are worried about that. What if it's gonna get bigger, if it's gonna scale it? So, like, how are they gonna deal with all these shortages?

B (9:53)

Yeah.

C (9:54)

There is one more topic that I want to talk about. I also wrote about it a little bit earlier. I published some text. It's the topic of ordinary soldiers.

B (10:05)

Yeah. Explain that to people, the civilians who

C (10:08)

are forced into the military service. This is also, like, a very sensitive topic because there are probably thousands or maybe hundreds of thousands of young men who are above 18 years old that are forced into the military service because it's mandatory in Iran, and they are forced into the service, and they are also in these military bases. And the military bases are being targeted nonstop. And there is a possibility. I mean, not the possibility, of course. It's. It's surreal. Today, one person, young man from Kurdistan, was confirmed that he was killed. But I'm sure that there are more because we don't have a proper Internet connection, so we cannot, like, get all the information. But these military bases are being also targeted. And of course, I think a lot of them might get killed or injured. And just from my own family, one of my Cousins, who is 24, he was also forced into this because he wanted to open a business. And like in Iran, a lot of people also. Maybe I should give a little bit of context. Like, in Iran, if you want to open a business, if you want to have a passport or things like that, you have to serve in the army, and we'll give you that. So, yeah, he was. He just. He was listed, like, I don't know, about five months ago or so. And then he was in a military base between Tabriz and Urmia, and their base was targeted. Luckily, the sleeping quarters were not targeted. It was just where the commanders were, I think, staying. And, I mean, I couldn't talk to him, but he told my cousin who I called, like, two days ago, he said that the moment that it was bombed, everybody just ran out. And then everybody went back in, and they. They took all their belongings and backpacks, and they just left the military base and they went home without telling the supervisor or something and they were not there. They're not going to go back there anyways. So this is also something that I am personally worried about. All those young men who are forced to be in the military bases and they are absolutely not a part of the regime. They are just civilians who are forced into this. So that's also something that I think it's not really discussed because the whole focus right now is just on the major attacks, which place was targeted or like which, I don't know, commander was killed or things like that.

B (12:39)

Yeah, let's take a little break for advertisements and we'll come back because I'd like to discuss more of that, like the structure of the Iranian state and who is and is not like part of it. Okay, we are back. So I think that would be a really good place for us to do some deep dives would be. People understand this part of the world through the lens of states because they understand the world through the lens of states because they have been raised in a state system. But I don't think that it's particularly, it's not useful to see everybody who lives in the Iranian state as part of the Iranian state. It doesn't actually give us a good grasp on reality. So perhaps you could explain, first of all, perhaps explaining the structures of the Iranian state when it comes to like there are pro regime militias, right. There are the irgc and then we have the leadership, many of whom are now dead, some of whom we know, some of whom we think are dead. But then we also have, and I know you and I have spoken about this before, but it's worth explaining again, right. Like Iran is an ethnically diverse country. So we have people who are ethnically excluded from power. We also have people within the majority ethnicity, Persian people who are not pro racism. So could you perhaps explain those structures that exist? And then you and I spoke about this a little bit before we were recording. But many of the facilities of the regime's armed forces and repressive forces are right in the middle of town, right next to civilian buildings. So perhaps we could explain the consequences of that for civilians as bombs are falling on these facilities.

C (14:28)

Yeah. So if I want to explain how the Iranian state system is, I would say simply compare it to a full monarchy but with a different label.

B (14:41)

Yeah.

C (14:42)

There's King who owns all of the power and there are the people who are around him that also share some bits of power with him. And there is the army that is in Full man of the leader or the people around him. So this is simply something like that if I want to make it very, very simple. But the Iranian state structure is actually quite complicated. You know, they follow some sort of religious hierarchy that the supreme leader is the representative of God on earth and he is leading the Muslim nation until the Imam Mahdi, the savior of the world comes from the skies and saves the world and brings peace. So this is what they actually believe. So the supreme leader is actually the person who approves everything? Yeah, there is normal parliament with the representative of the people but at the same time there is another type of religious parliament that decides on the interests of the regime which consists of some high level clerics or the mollahs who are on a higher social level. And at the same time there is also council of 12 people. Six of them are mullahs, six of them are like lawyers and jurists that they are monitoring the, let's say the whole political process in the government. But whatever happens when you see that, yeah, this is on paper, in theory, this is a system that could possibly work. But all of these organizations or these parts of the regimes or layers of the regime that I mentioned, all of them, they follow the supreme leader and whatever they do has to be approved by him. Yeah, I mean I'm not talking about like, I don't know, the things that are decided in a city council or like very low level. I'm talking about the national interests or things like that or who's going to be the next president for example. But basically that parliamentary system or those counselings are basically non functional. They're just there for a show. And at the same time, especially in the past decades, the irgc, it's not only a military force that it's not a militia that follows the leader. It's a whole organized and complicated structure that owns the economy, owns all the institutions in Iran and controls all of them. We're talking about the oil sector, we're talking about industry, we're talking about agriculture. I mean almost everything is owned by them. And IRGC is a network of countless high level commanders or even let's say non military person that are, that are all working together and they are running the country somehow. And of course even if the leader is dead, they still have some structures to continue to carry on. And this is how the structure is in Iran. And I think this is what makes Iran very different from other states in the Middle East. And it's something that makes Iran also very different from what? For example, if you Want to compare it to Saddam Hussein system or in Libya or in Syria, it's very different because the IRGC has put its hands and roots everywhere, in every institution. We're talking about schools, we're talking about universities, we're talking about hospitals, we're talking about anything that you can imagine, even in a post office, like we were talking about this earlier. So that there is like in every governmental institution from universities to schools and hospitals, IRGC always has a specific office in, in every facility.

B (18:51)

Yeah.

C (18:52)

It's supposed to recruit people to join the, the resistance. But in fact it's just a, it's just an office to observe the people who are working there or the people who are going there for their daily matters. So they have control over everything. And that's what makes this regime very, very structured and very hard to just topple in two nights. So that's why they are still resisting, they are still fighting back. They're still, even though Israel and America have destroyed majority of their military bases and facilities, but they are still fighting back. This is also important to understand, I think.

B (19:35)

Yeah, yeah. And like with it being a little bit unclear like who is still alive, especially in that top end of the pyramid. Right. Like we know Hamani is dead or we know, we're pretty sure he's dead. Iran has announced he's dead. We know that other people within that religious leadership and political leadership structure are dead. We know that they struck the assembly of experts today which could have removed a good number more of those religious leaders. Like what they did in Venezuela was that they found somebody who was no less repressive but was amenable to doing what they wanted specifically with resources, specifically with oil. We run the risk of a similar thing happening in Iran of someone within the IRGC being like, we will do what you need us to do with oil as long as you allow us to continue murdering the Iranian people as much as we wish. That's a real worry. They will find someone who they think they can do business with. That's what they wanted in Venezuela. Iran and Venezuela are different. They are both allied but they're very different countries. But that's a real worry for people.

C (20:48)

Yeah. I think it's also like with Venezuela, it's completely different right now because with Venezuela America had a clear person, as you said, that he or she is going to be the next leader or whatever.

B (21:04)

Yeah. Del C. Rodriguez.

C (21:06)

But with Iran it's not really clear yet. You know the so called Prince Pahlavi, he is always on tv, always on his social media saying that I'm gonna come back, I'm gonna do this and that. But it's not really clear if USA America have made a deal with him, because he doesn't really have that social base that he claims to have. Yeah. And on the other side, there are the ethnic groups, especially Kurds, Baluchis and Arabs. They're. They're, like, better organized compared to other ethnic groups. And then today, we just saw that Trump has made phone calls with the Kurdish leaders of these parties and the other parties in Iraqi Kurdistan. This means something. And so, yeah, it's not really clear that they're going to have a similar plan like Venezuela or they're going to have something completely different for Iran. We're just waiting to see what's going to happen in the upcoming weeks, because it's just a few days that the war is going on. The entire region is in a shock. It's still not clear that how people are going to decide on their future now, because the war is still going on, and it's on a very, very high level.

B (22:26)

Yeah.

C (22:27)

So, of course, it's. It's also like, even when I. When I was talking to my family the other day, they were telling me, I mean, most people in Kurdistan, I would say majority of the people in Kurdistan, they don't want monarchy back. Of course, they. They don't want another form of dictatorship. And they would say, yeah, we want anyone to be installed, but not this guy. Not. Not this Reza Pahlavi. We don't want him. Anyone is better than him.

B (22:53)

Yeah.

C (22:53)

So this is also something. And I think, yeah, probably if they want to install Reza Pahla, the ethnic groups will not accept it, and there's going to be more resistance and therefore more wars.

B (23:07)

Yeah. Let's take another break and we'll talk a little bit about that. Maybe specifically the Kurdish situation, as I know it's of interest to both of us. All right, we are back. So, yeah, you mentioned this piece. Right. There was an article. It was a very poorly written article, I will say. For instance, it seemed to think that Talabani and Barzani were Iranian, but nonetheless, the central thrust of it was correct, that Trump has communicated with the KDP and the puk. I understand this is like, a lot of acronyms coming at people, so maybe we can just say, like, political parties in Iraqi Kurdistan, southern Kurdistan, but that doesn't necessarily tell us anything. I think it's very easy. Again, like, there's this American media frame of analysis which sees groups in the Middle east as monolithic. Right. The Kurds, as if they're like an entirely homogeneous entity with one political interest, which is not the case. But for America to fully remove this regime and Israel, it needs either a partner force or to be willing to commit thousands of its own soldiers to fight and know that hundreds of them will die. Right. Like did in Iraq. I guess, knowing what we know and knowing that there are these groups. Right. And maybe it would be good to give people a primer on the. The eastern Kurdistan resistance groups and the alliance that they've recently formed. Where are they standing right now? I know they released a statement yesterday, but can you explain that a little bit to people?

C (24:53)

There are several parties across Eastern Kurdistan, or as they say, Iranian Kurdistan, and of course they're very diverse and each of them have a different ideology. That's very normal.

B (25:05)

Yes.

C (25:06)

What happened in the past few months was that it's also a very great development for our people, at least because they have been also calling for. For a form of cooperation between these parties. And they finally announced that of course, two parties like the Comala and another branch, they did not join it because they had some disagreements. But that is also normal. So the thing is that these parties would definitely work together if the things are going to escalate more. For example, if I want to say, about a week ago, the Reza Pahlavi published a statement and he threatened Kurdish people that if they think about autonomy or, I don't know, thinking about taking parts of Iran's oil, we're going to use the army against them in the future. It's incredible that the first Kurdish official who answered to that statement was Abdullah Mohtari from the Komala, who was not a part of the coalition. So that means that even though they have disagreements, but they are still trying to work together and help each other. I have talked to some people in the Kurdish parties. They are fully prepared for anything that could happen in the upcoming weeks or days or even months. I don't know they're fully prepared. And what I know is that they are telling me that they're prepared, that the Israeli army and also the American army would bomb or destroy the military bases on the border and also the checkpoints so that it would be easier for them to enter. And probably if it's going to be bigger than that, then maybe they could take over the controls of the cities. And what's really interesting is that they yesterday, these five parties, the coalition, published a statement and there were several points, but one of the points was that was really Interesting for me was that they were calling on people to not damage any public buildings like banks, schools, I don't know, offices. And that means that probably there is a movement that they want to come back and take over all these buildings and try to control the cities better. So this is also something. And there is a lot of discussion on social media, and people are all saying that, yeah, we are ready, that if something happens, we will go in. And I think right now the situation is really complicated, and, like, we don't know how people can actually enter yet. And you said that. Yeah. If there is going to be a force that's ready to sacrifice thousands of its members, I think there are. The Kurds are ready to fight. They have been ready to fight for. Forever, for decades.

B (27:58)

Yeah.

C (27:59)

So this is also, like, something that the Kurdish people already know, that if we want to get rid of this regime, we have to sacrifice more. For me, it's very painful to say this, but I think our people have to sacrifice a little bit more. More than that. They. They have been sacrificing for over 150 years, and I think maybe they have to sacrifice more. But one point here is that when I see what's happening, when I see that what is being said, that Trump is talking to the Kurdish parties, to the Kurdish organizations about the situation, one thing that I think about is that given the history of at least 15, 16 years of cooperation between America and the Kurds in Rojava in Syria, and the fight against isis, which was a great opportunity for Kurdish people, but at the end, Trump just let Kurds down and didn't really support them against Turkey, against all these jihadist groups that are supporting Syria. So the question is that what if we fight against this regime? We. We destroy the regime? I mean, it's not just us. I have to mention that the other ethnic groups are also ready. But what if all these ethnic groups fight this regime? They destroy this regime. And what if Trump just brings someone really bad and some. Someone really useless like Riza Pahlavi or other Iranian figures that, of course, are not after Kurdish people's interests? What if somebody like Saad comes in power and then the same situation goes on, and then we have to fight that system over and over again? So this is also something that I also think about it, but we still don't know.

B (29:52)

Yeah.

C (29:52)

What will happen is America's exact plan. It could be something like Iraqi Kurdistan, which could benefit the ethnic groups a lot. Of course, there's still going to be civil war. Probably there's Going to be instability, but at least the ethnic groups might be able to self determine, you know, like might be able to control their areas and get rid of that Iranian control to some extent. Maybe not fully, but that is also something that could be possible. And of course there's going to be killing. There's going to be a lot of civilians killed. And we know that already during all these bombings, many civilians are killed. We don't know how many exactly because there is no Internet connection to make sure about the numbers or to investigate that. But of course, all these Iranian government buildings, IRGC bases, intelligence offices or facilities, they are all located in civilian areas in the cities, in the city centers all over Iran and also Kurdistan. So there's always going to be some civilians who are living there who are walking around there and they get killed. So this is also something that's, that's really painful. But I think our people really had, have had enough and they were ready for this and they were, they knew that this is, this was, this was going to happen. And.

B (31:21)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's such a difficult thing because like, it's what, four or five weeks ago that we saw the STG and groups, affiliate, Syrian Transitional Government and groups affiliated with it, like live streaming them killing and mutilating the remains of captured Kurdish men and women in Deir Ezor. Right. Like a place where maybe it wasn't a desire to liberate Kurdish people that took the SDF there. It was the battle against ISIS and this idea of brotherhood of peoples, right, that they would liberate the Arab people who live there. Obviously that has resulted in these horrible things that we've seen over the last month. And then the thought of like, oh, well, won't you just send 10,000 more of your children to die so you can liberate people in Tehran and then we'll leave you again. Yeah, I was just thinking about like four years ago, I was in Suleimaniyeh and I went to the museum. You know, they have the Red Security building and they have like a very good history of the Anfaal, the genocide against the Kurdish people committed by the Ba' athist state. And then they have the 1991 uprising and then they have a lot of commemoration of the battle against the Islamic State. And like, for my entire life, like the, the Americans have been leaving Kurdish people to die and then urging them to rise up again. And it is just, no, it's, it's an incredible like revolutionary capacity and capacity for sacrifice, but it's also just very sad that Americans constantly expect Kurdish people to continue to sacrifice and then never fill up their end of the bargain.

C (33:04)

Yeah, that's, that's unfortunately true. And yeah, this has been evident in the past few years as well. Like in Syria when America gave the green light to Turkey to invade Rojava. And also recently that how they just abandoned Kurds. Of course they are still saying, no, we didn't abandon Kurds, but they did. And we basically lost almost everything that we had gained in Rojava. And there is also like a threat against Iraqi Kurdistan region right now from Turkey and also from Iraq. And it's just bitter truth that, yeah, apparently Kurds are not considered as a long term partner for the US and also the other Western countries. But like all these horrible things that have been happening to our people in the past 100 years, years. I mean, a part of it is of course the result of the Western countries and colonization from the European countries, Great Britain, Russia and also America.

B (34:11)

Yeah.

C (34:12)

But at the same time it's really important to not forget that majority of this tragedy that our people are living in is also caused by Turks, Arabs and Persians. And by that I just don't mean the state, I also mean the whole structure in the Middle east that that has been prosecuting the Kurds. It's been centuries that our people are trapped between these powers, the Turks, Persians and Arabs that are also fighting each other. But then they bring all of their wars inside our homeland and then our people get killed and displaced and face all the tragedies. So yeah, this is also our situation right now. And I don't know if it's going to be changed to a better situation because it's just so unclear that how the superpowers, how the major powers, the regional powers are planning for these things and how their interests actually matter. Like we talked about Rojava. If America, if Turkey or NATO and other Arab countries were not backing the new Syrian government, I would call it Syrian Arab government because that's how they identify themselves.

B (35:28)

Yeah, it's still the Syrian Arab Republic, even a year and a bit later.

C (35:32)

Yeah, if it was only Kurdish forces and the new government, trust me, they would not be able to enter all the territories controlled by sdf because SDF is way more advanced and more powerful than them, like military wise. But SDF was left alone. And there was so much pressure on SDF from all the Arab countries, Turkey and also Western countries in America. So this, this whole thing, like maybe this is a little bit unrealistic, but A lot of people ask me that what's going to be next? I think the next is going to be what America and Europe want. Like, I'm sure that they don't care about what, what the people in Kurdistan or the people in Iran want. They just want to do whatever they want, whatever that benefits them. And of course the neighboring countries will also follow from the Arab countries and definitely Turkey, they will follow the plan that benefits them. So the people are trapped between these decisions. If the, the Iranian structure also remains, probably they would also change course and then cooperate with, with America or, or Israel or NATO or Arab countries only to, to remain in power and maintain their interests.

B (36:52)

Yeah, it's a really difficult time if people are looking to stay informed on this. Right. Coverage in the US has been poor in the English language. Where would you suggest, where can people follow your work and where would you suggest people. People look to stay informed on what's happening?

C (37:09)

Yeah, I personally don't post a lot. I'm just trying to gather information and like be up to date and then share it with other media that are asking me about and other journalists. But there are several pages that I can suggest. One of them is definitely our organization, Hangao Hangout Organization for Human Rights. I would also suggest to follow news channels like Rudolph, which they have been working really good on this, on this war. It's a Kurdish TV channel based in Iraqi Kurdistan. I would also suggest to follow the social media pages belonging to the Kurdish parties like KDPI or Komala, just like their official pages on Twitter or I, for example, they post a lot of really good information. I would also suggest, I think, I also suggested in our last talk there is this person called Vahid online. He is an independent journalist and he has like some really big platforms and he posts a lot of reliable information and videos about the locations and the things that are happening. And I would also suggest to follow some other journalists like Ali Jawan, Marty, he is the manager and supervisor of the Voice of America. He also like, he has several platforms and they post. He posts a lot of updated information about what's happening. But here's also something that I want to warn about. I would suggest people to not really believe in what they see on TV channels or media like Iran International, Manoto tv, BBC Persian. Because all these media have turned into a platform to do the propaganda for the monarchists and they have been posting a lot of fake news, a lot of AI generated content and it's been really damaging the whole course of the. If I want to call it revolution or the war or whatever like that's happening inside Iran and Kurdistan. So, yeah, these are the things that I can suggest so far.

B (39:19)

Yeah, those are great suggestions. Thank you. Well, thank you very much for joining us today. We'll we'll get this out as soon as possible because I know people are very interested to know more about it. Thanks, Gordie.

C (39:30)

Yeah, thanks for inviting me. Till next time,

A (39:35)

It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen here, listed directly in Episode Descriptions. Thanks for listening. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.