What’s Real in the Politics of Population with Andrew

Summary

It Could Happen Here

Episode: What’s Real in the Politics of Population with Andrew
Date: October 29, 2025
Hosts: Andrew Sage & Mia Wong

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Overview

This episode delves into the complex, emotionally charged politics of global population: past panics about overpopulation, the myths, policy responses, and conspiracy theories that have flourished, as well as the current shift to fears of “underpopulation.” Andrew and Mia break down how both overpopulation and depopulation anxieties have shaped societies—sometimes in compassionate, often in coercive or cruel ways. They connect demographic fears to wider themes of capitalism, environmental collapse, far-right conspiracy, and migration, while previewing a deeper dive into pro-natalist vs. anti-natalist ideologies in the next episode.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Historical Perspective on Population Growth

• Ancient Humanity: Population growth was sluggish for millennia due to high infant mortality, famine, and disease.
  • “You had famines, you had plagues, you had the occasional war, and especially a lot of infant mortality. That’s what really kept populations in check.” (Andrew, 05:19)
• Dramatic Growth Since Industrialization: Advances in sanitation, vaccines, and agriculture led to the exponential “J curve”—from 1 billion in 1804 to 8 billion in 2022.
  • “We eventually hit 1 billion in the year 1804... Things really began to accelerate from there.” (Andrew, 06:41)
• UN Projections: Population is expected to peak at about 10.3 billion by 2084 before declining slightly.

Memorable Quote

“From 1804 to 2022, we went from 1 billion people to 8 billion people.”
(Andrew, 12:31)

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2. The Persistent Panic About 'Overpopulation'

• Early Theories:
  • Thomas Malthus (late 1700s) predicted population would outstrip food supply—famously wrong, but influential in cruel Victorian policies such as workhouses.
  • Famines are often due to distribution, not scarcity (Amartya Sen’s work).
    • “Famines usually happen despite food surpluses. The issue is usually distribution and not scarcity.” (Andrew, 11:43)
• 1960s-70s Peak Panic:
  • Paul Ehrlich’s “The Population Bomb” (1968) sparked widespread fears. Policies ranged from family planning to forced sterilizations and China's one-child policy.
    • “You had sterilization campaigns, forced sterilization campaigns... It's a scary prospect, especially if you were a minority in this time.” (Andrew, 13:44)

Important Segment

• Timeline of population milestones through world events (06:41–13:44)

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3. Debunking Overpopulation Myths & Conspiracies

• Pop Conspiracies:
  • Overpopulation fears fuel both mainstream and fringe beliefs—population control conspiracies, "chemtrails", “Bill Gates microchips,” and vaccine hysteria.
    • “Any combination of conspiracies can somehow be smushed together to fit that kind of narrative... that's the sad thing about conspiracy theories: some kernels of truth mixed in with a bunch of garbage.” (Andrew, 19:23)
• Consequences:
  • Some spill into violence (e.g., Nashville 5G bombing), policy (anti-vaxxers in government), and right-wing "Great Replacement" racism.
  • “If you have people rejecting vaccines, you know, it's almost like we're in the world that I alluded to earlier, where we have a resurgence in measles.” (Andrew, 21:14)
  • “Then there's the typical far right Nazi conspiracies about great replacement… You have the ecofash with their worries about the environmental impact of population, which usually ends up targeting marginalized groups.” (Andrew, 23:39)

Notable Moment

“Blaming population is a very cheap, simplistic and cowardly get out of jail free card for the rich minority that drive this systemic crisis.”
(Andrew, 25:11)

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4. The New Panic: 'Underpopulation'

• Current Reality:
  • Birth rates have plummeted globally, especially in East Asia and Europe. E.g., South Korea’s rate is 0.7 children per woman, the lowest in the world.
  • “The global average had dropped to just 2.3 children per woman, which is less than half of what it was 60 years ago... by 2100, expected to dip below the replacement level.” (Andrew, 29:30)
• Economic, Cultural Causes:
  • In developed countries: greater education, economic instability, urbanization, changing social attitudes, and child-raising costs.
  • “Very few people I know actually want children, or if they do want children, they don’t think they’d be able to afford to have children.” (Andrew, 32:29)
  • “There's the existential angst of it all... climate change which makes it honestly feel irresponsible to even think about bringing a child into this mess.” (Andrew, 33:28)
• Governments' Reactions:
  • From bonuses to parental leave (often ineffective), to raising retirement age (sparks protests), or punitive controls like limiting abortions.
    • “Instead of making life better for potential parents, some governments are criminalizing... restricting abortion, limiting reproductive rights, demonizing childfree lifestyles.” (Andrew, 37:27)

Memorable Quote

“For centuries we feared having too many people, and now we're starting to fear having too few.”
(Andrew, 39:52)

Timestamps of Key Segment

• Fertility decline and government responses: 29:30–37:42

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5. Migration & Global Inequity

• Filling the Gap with Immigration:
  • Wealthy countries rely on immigration to compensate for declining native populations but create political flashpoints and scapegoating.
    • “I’m in support of people moving and living wherever they want to... but I’m not a fan of the way that some progressives talk about immigration, as if the Global South is like a population bank that wealthy countries could tap into.” (Andrew, 37:42)
• Root Causes:
  • Need to address destabilizing impact of rich countries’ policies on migration, not merely treat migrants as “replacement” labor.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Vaccines & Conspiracies:
  • “If I was conspiracy brained, I would say that actually the popularization of vaccine conspiracies on social media sites contribute to exactly that kind of population control that those same conspiracy theorists fear monger about.” (Andrew, 22:31)
• On Ecofascism:
  • “If you actually wanted to reduce consumption, reduce the impact of population on the planet… are you going to start with fewer people or are you going to start with fewer billionaires flying private jets?” (Andrew, 24:15)
• Pronatalism’s Darker Side:
  • “Some governments... are criminalizing, they're turning to anti-choice policies. They're restricting abortion, they're limiting reproductive rights, they're demonizing child free lifestyles...” (Andrew, 37:27)

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Episode Conclusion & What’s Next

• The episode ends by underscoring that policy, culture, and fear around population—whether about over- or under-population—have huge impact on individual lives and society. The hosts foreshadow a follow-up episode exploring the ideologies and politics of pronatalism and antinatalism.
  • “Whether the future holds overcrowded cities or ghost towns really depends on the direction our politics, economy, culture and urban design takes.” (Andrew, 39:47)

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Further Listening

• Next episode: Deep dive into pro-natalist and antinatalist movements and ideas.

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Hosts:

• Andrew Sage (Andrewism), guest host, educator, and YouTuber
• Mia Wong, regular host

Production: Cool Zone Media & iHeartPodcasts

Transcript

[Andrew Sage]

This is an iHeart podcast. I turned off news altogether.

[Mia Wong]

I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything.

[Andrew Sage]

It's the rage bait. It feels like it's trying to divide people. We got clear facts.

[Mia Wong]

Maybe we can calm down a little.

[Andrew Sage]

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.

[Ali Egan]

Let's take a minute to unpack the myths behind GLP1 drugs. Myth 1 GLP1 is a long term solution for weight loss. True GLP1 can potentially be a long term solution for weight loss. If you want to be on a drug that changes your body's natural instincts, GLP1 can fix your metabolism. False. GLP1s fix hunger, and this leads to weight loss. But the GLP1s may actually slow down your metabolic rate as your body adjusts to consuming fewer calories. GLP1 leads to a loss of muscle mass. True GLP1 can lead to a loss of muscle mass due to losing weight so rapidly that your body is pulling from both fat and muscle to make up for the energy gap from consuming so few calories. If you're looking for a natural GLP1 therapy without the needles, consider Metabolism Ignite. Metabolism Ignite is powered by plants and can help boost your natural GLP1, helping you burn fat instead of muscle. Clinically proven to help you lose £9 in 90 days. Visit veracityselfcare.com and receive 15% off your first purchase with promo code iHeartrad.

[Andrew Sage]

Listen to High Key, a bold, joyful, unfiltered culture podcast. Speaking of crunchy, what did you think of your trainers run? I was amazing on that show, sister. Were you? I had. I was amazing. And I was better than you would be if you went. This is exactly why Bob is a good drag queen. Because she won't back down. She's not gonna go double back on that lie. I felt like you came in real hot, real strong, and that is just not the game, girl. Yeah, I'm gonna tell you why you're wrong. And I can't wait to do this. Please listen to High key on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Pod, or wherever you get your podcasts. In the aftermath of World War II, as the world confronts the horrors of the Holocaust, U.S. army psychiatrist Lt. Col. Douglas Kelly is tasked with evaluating Hermann Goering, Hitler's second in command. Meanwhile, chief prosecutor Robert H. Jackson leads the Allies in forming an unprecedented international tribunal for the trial of the century. As Dr. Kelly delves deeper into Guring's psyche. A tense psychological duel unfolds. Nuremberg. Starring Russell Crowe, Rami Malek, Leo Woodall, and Michael Shannon. Only in theaters November 7th.

[Ali Egan]

Call Zone Media.

[Andrew Sage]

Hello, and welcome to It Could Happen Here. I'm Andrew Sage. I run Andrewism over on YouTube, but I'm here on this podcast with the.

[Mia Wong]

One and only Mia Wong, who does this podcast most of the time.

[Andrew Sage]

Exactly. Exactly. And I think you and I both have something in common, which is that we are people and we are two people, but the world has a lot more than just two people. This is a really convoluted way of saying that for this episode, we're going to be talking about population. You know, how many of people there are and how many of them there will or will not be in the future. But. And all the different conversations that end up happening around that, most of which suck.

[Mia Wong]

So it's a tie.

[Andrew Sage]

True, True, true, true. Yeah. I mean, every single one of us humans is a product of billions of years of reproduction. But for most of that reproduction, population growth was pretty slow. You know, the world's population is estimated at around 5 million in the year 8000 BC. So 5 million is like the population of New Zealand right now or Costa Rica or Ireland or Norway, but spread across the entire planet. Can you guess how many people were alive in the year 1 CE, though?

[Mia Wong]

30 million.

[Andrew Sage]

That's actually an underestimate. It's 188 million.

[Mia Wong]

Jeez.

[Andrew Sage]

Right, so that's between the current population of Bangladesh and the current population of Brazil, which are at 169 million and 230 million, respectively. But that's spread across the entire planet. So, I mean, imagine that, you know, a whole world of people so spread out. I mean, they were concentrated in certain areas, of course, but you had all this vast forest, land and plains and entire continents that barely had people compared to today. And the reason the population grew so slowly was really because, I mean, humans have always been doing the do, you know. But death was kind of a very present phenomenon. You know, you had famines, you had plagues, you had the occasional war, and you especially had a lot of infant mortality.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

And that's what really kept populations in check. You know, I remember hearing. I don't even remember who it was, but this one person had, like, 19 children, and only eight of them survived to adulthood.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah, they honestly did pretty good. Like, by those metrics, like. Yeah, the infant mortality rate was unbelievably high.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah. Yeah. So families had a lot of children, but only a few of them. Made it to adulthood. Now, thanks to early industrialization, things were able to change a bit. You know, we improved our agriculture, we invented refrigeration, we got better fertilizer, and most importantly, we developed advancements in sanitation. You know, doctors were actually washing their hands. You know, we developed vaccines so children weren't dying of measles and mumps. Hmm, imagine that.

[Mia Wong]

Oh, good Lord.

[Andrew Sage]

And we also had an overall improvement in medicine. You know, one of the greatest inventions of humanity, I think, is the vaccine. And it's such a wonderful thing that there's not this massive movement of people who challenge its very legitimacy in this day and age and threaten all of our lives as a result. You know, imagine being in that world.

[Mia Wong]

Oh, God.

[Andrew Sage]

So we eventually hit 1 billion in the year 1804, which is just below the current population of China. And things really began to accelerate from there. We end up creating something called a J curve of exponential population growth, thanks to, like I said, the decline in infant mortality and improvements in fertility and food production and any other billionaire milestones started rolling. By 1804, Haiti had just gained its independence, Napoleon I was crowned Emperor of France, and Lewis and Clark had begun their expedition across America in 1927. That's 123 years later. We hit 2 billion people. You know, by then we had Trotsky being expelled from the ussr, which had just been founded. We had Charles Lindenberg completing the first solo nonstop flight across the Atlantic Ocean. And then also in 1927, we had the release of the first feature length film to feature synchronized sound for dialogue. Quite the time to be alive. We Fast forward to 33 years later, 1960, and we hit 3 billion people. By then, Nigeria had just gained its independence, JFK was in the White House, Ham the Chimpanzee went to space, and the FDA approved the first ever birth control pillar. But the birth control pill didn't really kick in in terms of, you know, hampering our growth for some time. By 1974, 14 years later, we hit 4 billion people. By then, Nixon had resigned, Turkey had invaded Cyprus. Portugal overthrew its dictatorship. The Godfather Part 2 came out, and ABBA was still at the top of the charts. 1987, 13 years later is when we got 5 billion people. That's when we had most of the major colonies around the world gaining their independence, or haven't already yet gained their independence. You know, Thatcher was beginning her third term, and the Simpsons first appeared on TV 12 years later in 1999. We had the Y2K panic, the Clinton impeachment the SpongeBob premiere, the introduction of the euro and 6 billion people made their debut on planet Earth 2011. 12 years later, we hit 7 billion people. And that was in the midst of the Arab Spring, a tsunami hit in Japan, the Occupy movement, the premiere of Game of Thrones, and really the beginning of smartphones and social media taking over the world. Finally, by 2022, which is 11 years after 2011, we hit 8 billion people amidst Russia invading Ukraine, the growing popularity of TikTok, and Elon's purchase of Twitter. So from 1804 to 2022, we went from 1 billion people to 8 billion people. And the UN expects it to grow by about 1.9 billion between now and 2100. So we'll end up reaching from 8.2 billion people to 10.2 billion people. And population is projected to peak at 10.3 billion in 2084 and then decline to 10.2 billion through the end of the century. So with this rapid population growth, there has been a lot of fears surrounding overpopulation. Particularly in the late 20th century and early 2000s, there was a lot of conversation around, you know, this population bomb, this worry that there were too many people. Now, at least early on in the population boom, I think it makes some sense to have concerns. You know, there had never been this many people on the Earth at any point in time prior. You know, if you're watching the numbers climb and climb and climb, you might have thought we were headed straight for a planet covered in cities and some kind of collapse. But even before we even hit a billion people, the idea of overpopulation being a significant problem wasn't new. In the late 1700s, Thomas Malthus argued that population would always outpace food supply. And his prediction was that there'd be too many people, not enough resources, and a decline into famine, disease, and mass death. Now, he was obviously proven wrong. But in 19th century Britain, Malthus ideas helped justify the harsh welfare policies that that government ended up implementing, like the spread of workhouses around the country. Also, we speak about famine as if it's this natural phenomenon that can't be helped, that is just almost like a hurricane or a tornado. But famines are usually not actually the result of not having enough food. You know, Amartya Sen found that famines usually happen despite food surpluses. The issue is usually distribution and not scarcity. You know, a famous example being, you know, during the Irish famine, Ireland was still exporting tons of food to feed its colonial overlord. So we Fast forward to 1968 and the biologist Paul Ehrlich publishes the Population Bomb. He describes visiting Delhi and feeling the crush of overpopulation, convinced that mass starvation was imminent in the 1970s. Now, I think that book that he published was one of the main influences in the widespread panic around overpopulation. You know, governments started to scramble about it. A lot of policies were born likely from people reading that very book. You know, some of these policies were fairly benign. You know, you promote family planning, you improve access to contraceptives, you know, improve education for women especially. But other approaches were very harsh and brutal. You know, you had sterilization campaigns, forced sterilization campaigns taking place in India and Puerto Rico and in the United States. China's one child policy also gets a lot of attention, but it was only one example of a widespread brutality around the impositions placed on women, especially in that time, the fear of too many people and that anxiety leading to the control of women and their bodies. And it's a scary prospect, especially if you were a minority in this time, if you were a cultural, racial or religious minority, because it made very ordinary human activity, things like moving around, having children, just existing made it seem like an existential threat to civilization, to humanity that needed to be dealt with by any means necessary.

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[Andrew Sage]

I turned off news altogether.

[Mia Wong]

I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything.

[Andrew Sage]

It's the rage bait.

[Mia Wong]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Andrew Sage]

We got clear facts.

[Mia Wong]

Maybe we could calm down a little.

[Andrew Sage]

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.

[Ali Egan]

Everyone is talking about GLP1 certified health coach Ali Egan has some Mythbusters to share. Myth number one. GLP1 is a long term solution for weight loss. Ali says true GLP1 can potentially be a long term solution for weight loss. If you want to be on a drug that changes your body and natural instincts, GLP1 can fix your metabolism. Ellie says false GLP1s fix hunger and this leads to weight loss. But the GLP1s may actually slow down your metabolic rate as your body adjusts to consuming fewer calories. GLP1 leads to a loss of muscle mass. Ali says true GLP1 can lead to a loss of muscle mass due to losing weight so rapidly that your body is poor pulling from both fat and muscle to make up for the energy gap from consuming so few calories. For a natural GLP1 therapy without the needles, consider trying metabolism ignite. Metabolism Ignite can help boost your natural GLP1 clinically proven to help you lose 9 pounds in 90 days. Visit veracityselfcare.com and receive 15% off your first purchase with promo code iHeart.

[Andrew Sage]

Looking for your next obsession? Listen to High Key, a bold, joyful, unfiltered culture podcast coming at you every Friday. Now, my question is, in this game of mafia that we're gonna play, are you gonna do better than me? Say it now.

[Mia Wong]

Duh.

[Andrew Sage]

Period. I'm gonna eat. You're gonna do better than me? I'm gonna eat. Yes. I literally will. Ryan will. I cannot wait till we both team up and get you out and then one of us gets the other out. Cause we didn't realize they were a traitor the whole time. And you were actually an innocent. Y' all won't even know that I'm a traitor. This is going to be delicious. Well, thank you for coming to our show. And on that note, thank you for coming to my Show. Listen to High Key on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So they had some positive outcomes of quote, unquote, positive outcomes of the overpopulation concerned. You know, you had pushes for women's empowerment. You had the proposal of improved urbanization to reduce the sprawl of human activity. You also had people proposing things like extraterrestrial settlement, which you know is not really realistic as a solution for a multitude of valid reasons. Yeah, I think it's really funny, you know, whenever people push that sort of. Yeah, humans are destined for the stars kind of narrative. You know, it's a story, a really powerful story coming out of science fiction and it's good that it has inspired people to learn more about space and, you know, dedicate their lives to the study of the stars and that kind of thing. But this idea that we're going to be shipping off, like, millions of people off planet to settle on other planets, I think is pretty safely in the realm of science fiction.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah, that's a full, like, get back to me in a thousand years and we could maybe start talking about moving, like, thousands of people.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah, even thousands or hundreds of people. I mean, we don't have those massive generation ships. We can't even get those off the ground at this stage in our spacecraft. And we also have a lot of issues to resolve on Earth before we spread our problems across the galaxy, as far as I'm concerned. But beyond these solutions, the ideas and public discourses around overpopulation have also birthed a lot of conspiracy theories. You know, I'm sure you might have heard a few of them in your time.

[Mia Wong]

Oh, boy. Yep. This is one of the big Alex Jones things, for example. So he's convinced that there's like a giant plot by the globalists to kill off an enormous part of the Cuban population to like, stop overpopulation or something. It's. Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

Honestly, any combination of conspiracies can somehow be smushed together to fit that kind of narrative. And I could talk about all the vaccines, sterilizing people, the chemtrails, the 5G towers, the bill Gates microchips, the. Even the food supply. All these things allegedly being used to sterilize people. Not to say that there isn't validity to any claims of the things that we consume contributing to lower fertility, the fact that we clothe ourselves in, like, polyester, you know, we still don't have a full idea of the impact of microplastics on our bodies. You know, there's valid concerns about some of the consequences of the ultra processed foods that, you know, fill our grocery shelves. But that's the sad thing about conspiracy theories. You know, they have some kernels of truth mixed in to bolster their validity, but then they mix it up with a bunch of garbage about, you know, utter nonsense.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

And then of course, I mean, some of these conspiracy theories are kind of benign, you know, like, if you think it's 5G towers, I guess you put a, I don't know, a tinfoil hat on your junk.

[Mia Wong]

But I mean, to be fair, there was One of the 5G guys who did, like, blow himself up at a giant car bomb.

[Andrew Sage]

I did not hear about that.

[Mia Wong]

A Couple of years ago.

[Andrew Sage]

Damn.

[Mia Wong]

Oh, yeah. Luckily he only killed himself, but giant. Giant car bomb in the middle of, I want to say Memphis or something.

[Andrew Sage]

Down. Yeah.

[Mia Wong]

But, yeah, so like, every once in a while he gets a real oh, boy stuff from that.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, honestly, people could take even the simplest things and turn it into a threat to themselves and others if they're not in the right headspace or they haven't been given the right support. Sad, really. And obviously, like, not all the conspiracies are benign. I mean, if you have people rejecting vaccines, you know, it's almost like we're in the world that I alluded to earlier, you know, where we have a resurgence in measles, for example.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah. Jim o', Neill, who's the Deputy Secretary of Health and Human Services and the acting director for the cdc, literally on Monday called for splitting the MMR vaccine into multiple vaccines. Like, which is basically. I mean, which. Which is just straight up the Andrew Wakefield. I feel like I've said this on seven podcasts on this show now, but this is literally just straight up the Andrew Wakefield anti vaccine thing from the original giant anti vaccine panic in the 90s.

[Andrew Sage]

That was the autism vaccine thing.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah, yeah, like, and this is. This is. This is the guy who's currently running the cdc. It's just being like, no, yeah, you should do this thing. That's.

[Andrew Sage]

Again, yeah, yeah, you guys are cooked.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah, again, this thing that was developed specifically so that Angie Wakefield could sell his own vaccine.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's. That's the thing. If I was conspiracy brained, I would say that actually the popularization of vaccine conspiracies on social media sites contribute to exactly that kind of population control that those same conspiracy theorists fear monger about. But that's. If I was conspiracy brained, which I'm not.

[Mia Wong]

God. So someone. Someone believes that somewhere. Absolutely. There is someone who is like the anti vaxxers are a conspiracy to call the global population or something like.

[Andrew Sage]

No, because, I mean, we have this very straightforwardly effective human invention, one of the best in the history of humankind, and you're telling me that a couple people on Facebook are now responsible for the entire government rejecting the effectiveness of vaccines and, you know, jeopardizing the health of the entire population? Come on.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, the true believers are in charge now.

[Andrew Sage]

Indeed. Indeed, they are true believers. And of course, people who stand to profit from the dip in the sales of paracetamol and whatever else. So there are those conspiracies about population and Then there's the typical far right Nazi conspiracies about great replacement. Right. The idea that shadowy elites are orchestrating falling birth rates among white populations while encouraging immigration from the population booming global south. I mean, of course not all of the global south is booming population wise. A lot of places are also experiencing decline. It's a global problem, but we're going to get to that. And connected of course, to those great replacement types you have the ecofash with their worries about the environmental impact of population and their twisted belief that environmental collapse could be solved by reducing the number of people, which usually ends up targeting marginalized groups. Which is exactly the kind of thinking that inspired real violence, like with the Christchurch shooter in 2019. Yep. And of course the actual drivers of ecological collapse are not poor families in India or Africa having too many kids, it's the over consumption of the global North. You know, if you actually wanted to reduce consumption, reduce the impact of population on the planet, are you going to start with fewer people or are you going to start with fewer billionaires flying private jets? You know, it's not about the number of people, the head count, it's about the lifestyles and the systems that support those lifestyles. You know, blaming population is a very cheap, simplistic and cowardly get out of jail free card for the rich minority that drive this systemic crisis.

[Mia Wong]

Yep. The thing about this obviously is that if, if you believe that you need to reduce the human population, that it's your obligation to go first.

[Andrew Sage]

Yes, well, we are going to talk about those types of people in the next episode. But you know, speaking of the overpopulation, I think there's nowadays at least an opposite concern that is dominating the headlines. You know, in wealthier, more developed countries, fertility tends to be lower. And that's tied to things like better education, more women working, urban living, greater choices, greater access to contraception, etc. But in less developed countries, fertility is usually higher because children are often seen as both helping hands and future caregivers. And education and access to birth control are more limited. But the global fertility rate is now steadily dropping due to that fertility, increasing development, greater access to birth control, greater education and women's rights. And there's a fear nowadays that there won't be enough people to support the system as it has been built. Remember, capitalism is predicated on endless growth. When its population starts to decline naturally, everything that it's building towards in terms of the amount of consumers, the amount of infrastructure, the amount of workers, those are not going to be there anymore, especially as more and more people end up dipping out of the workforce as they age.

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[Andrew Sage]

I turned off news altogether.

[Mia Wong]

I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything.

[Andrew Sage]

It's the rage bait. It feels like it's trying to divide people. We got clear facts.

[Mia Wong]

Maybe we could calm down a little.

[Andrew Sage]

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News Reporting for America.

[Ali Egan]

Let's take a minute to unpack the myths behind GLP1 drugs. Myth number one GLP1 is a long term solution for weight loss. True GLP1 can potentially actually be a long term solution for weight loss. If you want to be on a drug that changes your body's natural instincts, GLP1 can fix your metabolism. False. GLP1s fix hunger and this leads to weight loss. But the GLP1s may actually slow down your metabolic rate as your body adjusts to consuming fewer calories. GLP1 leads to a loss of muscle mass True GLP1 can lead to a loss of muscle mass due to losing weight so rapidly that your body is pulling from both fat and muscle to make up for the energy gap from consuming so few calories. If you're looking for a natural GLP1 therapy without the needles, consider metabolism Ignite. Metabolism Ignite is powered by plants and can help boost your natural GLP1, helping you burn fat instead of muscle. Clinically proven to help you lose 9 pounds in 90 days. Visit veracityselfcare.com and receive 15% off your first purchase with promo code iheartra.

[Andrew Sage]

Looking for your next obsession? Listen to High Key, a bold, joyful, unfiltered culture podcast coming at you every Friday. Now, my question is, in this game of mafia that we're gonna play, are you gonna do better than me? Say it now. Duh. Period. I'm gonna eat. You gonna do better than me? I'm gonna eat. Yes. I literally will. Ryan will. I cannot wait till we both team up and get you out, and then one of us gets the other out. Cause we didn't realize they were a traitor the whole time, and you were actually in it. Listen, y' all won't even know that I'm a trainer. This is going to be delicious. Well, thank you for coming to our show. And on that note, thank you for coming to my show. Listen to High key on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, in 2023, the global average had dropped to just 2.3 children per woman, which is less than half of what it was 60 years ago, according to the United Nations. Fertility will keep falling throughout this century. And by the year 2100, the global average is expected to dip below replacement level of 2.1 to about 1.8 children per woman. Now, some countries are already there. Japan sits at 1.2 children per woman. Italy, Spain, and much of Eastern Europe are well below 1.5. South Korea is famously a demographic outlier at 0.7 children per woman, which is the lowest fertility rate in the world. And that means, obviously, that on average, Korean women are having less than one child each, for very valid reasons, I might add, considering the economic and cultural conditions in that country. Now, I don't live in Eastern Europe or Southern Europe or East Asia. I live in the Caribbean. I live in Trinidad and Tobago. But speaking anecdotally at least, which obviously is not representative of the full picture, I can count maybe on one hand the number of people I know my age who think that they'll be able to bring children into the world whether they want to or not. You know, very few people I know actually want children, or if they do want children, they don't think they'd be able to afford to have children. But maybe that's just selfishness. What do you think?

[Mia Wong]

I mean, I don't know. Like, I. I am not interacting with a representative sample of the population, but no. Yeah. I mean, it's a lot of people who are like, no. And it's too expensive. It sucks. I don't want to deal with this. But again, like not, not a representative sample here.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you can just look at the economy. Things have been getting worse for my entire life. You know, there hasn't been any point in my life where anyone in my generation could look around honestly and say, yeah, you know, this is, we'd be cooking, you know, it's time to double, double it. You know, let's have a child. You know, the housing situation has gotten worse, the cost of living as a whole has gotten worse, childcare costs have gotten worse. And of course, outside of that economic stuff, there's also cultural attitude shifts. You know, people realizing I don't need to have a child to be fulfilled to find meaning. You know, people are able to pursue higher education and also they're more educated about the process of childbearing in general, including the very valid medical concerns surrounding that whole process. I mean, if I were a woman, I would not want to have a child. You know, the consequences on their bodies, on their minds and their health, the risks to their very life are not something that can be swept aside as it was previously. People are aware of it now, people are talking about it now, and they are empowered to make decisions that feel right for them. You know, a lot of people are also very much focused on their careers, either by choice or because they don't have any other choice but to focus on putting food on the table. You know, people are also getting married later. And as a whole, we have shifted toward a more individual society. So, you know, in the past you did have the extended families, the close knit communities that made raising children a bit more manageable, but today it's a bit rarer to find and you tend to see a lot more nuclear families or even just individuals going at it alone. You know, less support and more isolation. And so it makes it very difficult. And then there's the existential angst of it all. You know, I can't forget the fact that there are multiple wars waging around the world. There's a lot of political instability in much of the world, and of course the biggest issue of all, climate change, which makes it, honestly, it makes it feel irresponsible to even think about bringing a child into this mess. So a declining fertility, a decline in population, it has the governments panicking. You know, China went from having decades of a one child policy to now desperately trying to encourage people to have more babies. They're offering cash bonuses and housing books and extended parental leave, but it's not really working. You know, as populations are aging There's a lot more elderly people to care for and fewer working age people to support them. So that is, you know, a recipe for pension crises and labour shortages and spiraling healthcare costs. So some governments are even trying to raise the retirement age, which as France and their protests have shown, is not going to go over well with much of the population. Nobody wants to work an extra five years, an extra 10 years more when they've already put so much of their lives to these dead end, pointless and, you know, mentally and physically draining tasks that really just line the pockets of their bosses.

[Mia Wong]

It is worth pointing out that last year there was a pretty massive race in the retirement age people in China that's being phased in a way where it's going to take over the course of 15 years. It goes up gradually to sort of spread out the anger over it. But yeah, it is worth noting that China's is significantly increased or is going to significantly increase over the course of the next 15 years.

[Andrew Sage]

Hmm. Yeah. And then on the other side of things there is in the retirement age now, but the young people who are working today are more than likely not going to get any kind of pension. Yeah. You know, I'd rather the world of my 60s don't look like the world of my 20s. That would be my preference. So I would rather that we've reached a point as a society where pensions are not the necessary band aid that they are right now. But until then, you know, there's quite the powder keg.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

We also have in Eastern Europe, you know, you have countries rolling out pro natalist policies that tie financial support directly to family size. I'm going to get a bit more into pronatalism in the next episode. But there's also the darker side of that pronatalist push in terms of the policies meant to reverse the population decline. Some governments, instead of making life better for potential parents, are criminalizing, they're turning to anti choice policies. They're restricting abortion, they're limiting reproductive rights, they're demonizing child free lifestyles. Russia actually recently criminalized what they called child free propaganda, you know.

[Mia Wong]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

And then this is also part of a broader conversation about population where you have the immigration concerns as a political flashpoint. And because a lot of wealthy countries, because of their population decline, are starting to rely more on immigrants to keep their economies going. But as a flip side, that tends to fuel backlash from the far right groups who are able to frame it as a threat to national identity. And because the system of the state and capitalism is not interested in actually taking care of people. Those immigrants become a very useful scapegoat. You know, obviously I'm in support of people moving and living wherever they want to move and live as they please. I don't believe in borders, especially as the climate consequences are hitting those of us in the Global south first. Yeah, but I also, I'm not a fan of the way that some progressives end up talking about immigration, where they act as if, you know, the Global south is like a population bank that wealthy countries could tap into and, you know, pull population from, regardless of the consequences on the home countries of these people. You know, it's like, let immigrants come. And I'm all for that. But then it's also like your government is destabilizing their governments, your system, your economic system, and the global economic system is making life in those countries unlivable. And I think the priority also needs to be on dealing with that issue and not just shrugging and saying, well, you know, at least immigrants are able to help our economy stay afloat even as their countries languish and suffer. So to kind of wrap things up, where does this all leave us? You know, for centuries we feared having too many people, and now we're starting to fear having too few people. And both anxieties are shaping policy, fuelling conspiracy theories and sparking culture wars. And whether the future holds overcrowded cities or ghost towns really depends on the direction our politics, economy, culture and urban design's take on the next episode, I'm going to be talking about the ideas around population, the pro natalists and the antinatalists. But until then, I've been Andra Sage here with Mia Wong on It Could Happen Here. Peace.

[Ali Egan]

It Could Happen Here is a.

[Mia Wong]

Production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts you can now find sources for It Could Happen here, listed directly in Episode Descriptions. Thanks for listening.

[Ali Egan]

Let's take a minute to unpack The Myths Behind GLP1 Drugs GLP1 is a long term solution for weight loss. True. GLP1 can potentially be a long term solution for weight loss. If you want to be on a drug that changes your body's natural instincts, GLP1 can fix your metabolism. False. GLP1s fix hunger and this leads to weight loss. But the GLP1s may actually slow down your metabolic rate as your body adjusts to consuming fewer calories. GLP1 leads to a loss of muscle mass. True GLP1 can lead to a loss of muscle mass due to losing weight so rapidly that your body is pulling from both fat and muscle to make up for the energy gap from consuming so few calories. If you're looking for a natural GLP1 therapy without the needles, consider Metabolism Ignite. Metabolism Ignite is powered by plants and can help boost your natural GLP1, helping you burn fat instead of muscle. Clinically proven to help you lose £9 in 90 days. Visit veracityselfcare.com and receive 15% off your first purchase with promo code iHeart.

[Andrew Sage]

In the aftermath of World War II, as the world confronts the horrors of the Holocaust, U.S. army psychiatrist Lt. Col. Douglas Kelly is tasked with evaluating Hermann Goering, Hitler's second in command. Meanwhile, chief prosecutor Robert H. Jackson leads the Allies in forming an unprecedented international tribunal for the trial of the century. As Dr. Kelly delves deeper into Guring's psyche, a tense psychological duel unfolds. Nuremberg. Starring Russell Crowe, Rami Malek, Leo Woodall and Michael Shannon. Only in theaters November 7th.

[Mia Wong]

This is Julian Edelman from Games With Names. Fantasy football can be exhausting.

[Andrew Sage]

I mean that literally.

[Mia Wong]

You're so anxious over your lineup, you can't fall asleep.

[Andrew Sage]

Best way to deal with it is unisom. There's a reason it's the number one.

[Mia Wong]

Doctor recommended over the counter sleep aid brand. It helps you fall asleep faster, wake.

[Andrew Sage]

Up less, and feel refreshed in the morning.

[Mia Wong]

Plus, unisom sleep tabs are clinically tested and proven, effective and completely non habit forming.

[Andrew Sage]

So make the ultimate sleeper pick and.

[Mia Wong]

Put it to bed with unisom Use as directed. This is Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. And guess what? I'm Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. And guess what? What? I'm stressed. I got invited to a friendsgiving and now there's the big question of what to bring. Well, just bring a bottle of Casamigos. Ah, Casamigos. Of course, nothing brings people together like a batch of Casamigos margaritas. A Casamigos margarita really is the perfect cocktail. Plus, Casamigos goes with everything. Turkey, stuffing, Mac and cheese. Oh, I was thinking more cranberry juice or ginger beer, but that works too well. You know the iconic rule of culture number 743. Anything goes with my Casamigos. This friendsgiving, you know what everyone will be grateful for.

[Andrew Sage]

Cosamigos.

[Mia Wong]

I was gonna say you and Casamigos. Oh, let's keep it in that order, please. Drink responsibly.

[Andrew Sage]

Imported by Casamigos Spirits Company, White Plains, New York. Casamigos Tequila.

[Mia Wong]

40.

[Andrew Sage]

Alcohol by volume. This is an I heart podcast.