Why is DHS buying private prisons?

Summary

It Could Happen Here — "Why is DHS buying private prisons?"

Date: July 29, 2026
Host: James (Cool Zone Media)
Guest: Wendy Fry (Reporter, CalMatters)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, James interviews journalist Wendy Fry about her investigative reporting for CalMatters on the U.S. Department of Homeland Security’s surprising purchase of two massive California immigrant detention centers from the private prison company CoreCivic. The conversation explores the context and consequences of these acquisitions, the political climate around immigrant detention, the shifting tactics of DHS, and the alarming implications for oversight, detainee welfare, and the communities surrounding these facilities.

Tone: Detailed, urgent, and deeply concerned with civil rights, transparency, and humanitarian outcomes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Happened: The Billion-Dollar Prison Purchase

[02:55 - 04:42]

• CoreCivic, a major private prison company, sold two of California's largest immigrant detention centers—Otay Mesa Detention Center (San Diego County, ~2,000 beds) and the California City facility (Kern County, ~2,500 beds)—to the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) for approximately $1.5 billion.
• DHS paid ~$739 million for Otay Mesa and ~$730 million for California City.
• These prices were around four times the last county-appraised values (~$160 million for Otay Mesa), though appraised value may not reflect "market value" for such unique properties.

"We just last Friday were talking with the San Diego County assessor’s office...the last appraised value on these properties was about a quarter of what the federal government paid."
— Wendy Fry [03:40]

• The deal was revealed through Securities Exchange Commission (SEC) filings, as CoreCivic must disclose such information publicly.

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2. Context: Private Prisons, Legal Battles, and State Pushback

[05:02 - 06:46]

• President Biden previously promised to end federal contracts with private prisons, but this did not include immigrant detention. In fact, immigration detention capacity is expanding.
• California attempted to ban private prison companies, but the ban did not survive court challenges (Ninth Circuit).
• State lawmakers have since shifted to tactics like attempting to financially disincentivize private prison operations.
• DHS, citing these state measures, says it's become too burdensome for private operators, which is part of their rationale for government ownership.

"It's become too burdensome from their point of view for the private prison companies to operate in California because of all the oversight...pushback that California officials have tried to do."
— Wendy Fry [06:20]

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3. Migration Control Funding and Shift in DHS Strategy

[07:08 - 09:14]

• The federal budget last year included $45 billion specifically for immigration enforcement, more than the total federal prison system.
• DHS wanted to "streamline" (and massively grow) detention/deportation operations, exploring warehouse-like facilities.
• Strategy shifted to buying existing prisons due to difficulties in building new ones (community opposition, logistics).
• DHS prefers ownership as it potentially reduces compliance with state/local oversight and inspections, a position supported by federal courts.

"They wanted to design the, quote, Amazon Prime for humans...they want to make this as fast and as efficient as possible."
— Wendy Fry [07:39]

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4. Oversight, Humanitarian Conditions & Political Double Standards

[09:14 - 12:47]

• The discussion reflects on California’s historical lack of meaningful pushback against poor migrant conditions, particularly under Democratic administrations.
• Questioning official narratives: Were humanitarian concerns selectively enforced depending on which party is in power?
• Noted that much of the digital infrastructure for migrant surveillance (AI, Palantir) was built under Biden and now benefits current/future administrations.

"It is a concern for sure, that it does seem like California politicians do get more bang for their buck in opposing the immigration policies of the Trump administration..."
— Wendy Fry [12:10]

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5. Permanence and Future-Proofing Detention Capacity

[16:10 - 16:57]

• Even with political change, these facilities will remain federal property and continue operating.
• DHS themselves state this is a deliberate strategy to make immigration enforcement infrastructure “harder to roll back.”

"They're saying themselves, DHS is saying themselves that this is a deliberate strategy to make their detention build out more permanent and harder to roll back with the changing political winds."
— Wendy Fry [16:41]

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6. Remote Locations, Legal Access & Transparency

[17:53 - 21:07]

• Detention centers are intentionally placed in remote areas, isolating detainees from families, legal support, and media.
• Frequent transfer of detainees between facilities further disorients and disrupts legal representation and contact.
• New facilities have at times opened without public notice, raising transparency and civil rights concerns.

"It's hard for advocates, hard for attorneys, hard for journalists like me to get to. It's like six hours to get to California City."
— Wendy Fry [18:10]

"If we have these...almost like black site ICE detention facilities...if it's not even listed there in the facilities...sometimes people are disappearing into these systems."
— Wendy Fry [21:07]

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7. Community Resistance and the Changing Face of Detention

[22:13 - 23:50]

• New mega-facilities have been resisted by local communities, sometimes across the political spectrum.
• The impact of such massive facilities is not limited to detainees; local infrastructure and economies are affected.
• The federal government is under internal pressure to spend enormous appropriated sums; unspent funds could be lost.

"That's one of the things people are realizing...these properties have an impact outside of just the people that they're detaining. They have a ripple effect on the entire community."
— Wendy Fry [23:27]

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8. Economic Impact and the “Bait and Switch”

[24:23 - 25:02]

• When facilities become federally owned, cities lose promised tax revenue, undermining local incentives for approval.
• Only income tax from facility employees may remain, not direct facility-based taxes.

"They're not going to be getting that $2 million tax revenue anymore...it's like a bait and switch."
— Wendy Fry [24:23]

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9. Who Staffs These Prisons Now?

[28:37 - 29:44]

• Although DHS owns the buildings, CoreCivic expects to continue operating them under contract, at least until 2027 (California City) and possibly 2029+ for Otay Mesa.
• The “same guards, the same medical directors, the same operations and day-to-day at both facilities.”

"The federal government is going to own the real estate. But CoreCivic has said...they expect...to be keeping those contracts..."
— Wendy Fry [28:48]

---

10. Conditions, Complaints, and Suppression of Oversight

[30:02 - 34:10]

• Recent federal acquisitions make it even harder for state and local health inspectors/congressional oversight.
• Detainee conditions remain grim: lack of interpreters, horrific food, denial of medical care, reprisals for complaints.

"He spent months without [being] able to tell anybody what happened to him...doesn't he have a right to participate in his own proceedings?"
— Wendy Fry [30:56]

• Reports of hunger strikers being punished, transferred, and force-fed.
• Current court cases about state inspection may become irrelevant as federal ownership takes precedence.
• Ongoing legal battles over the ability of local officials to inspect these facilities.
• Under Trump, even internal complaint mechanisms have been unfunded or shut down.

"Both of those [DHS oversight offices] have been shut down right now and not funded right now. So those mechanisms...to get any oversight...are not operating."
— Wendy Fry [38:05]

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11. Future of Detention Infrastructure

[34:18 - 37:21]

• Indications that DHS will continue buying detention facilities from CoreCivic, GEO Group, and others.
• Federal property status strengthens potential for government to bar public/protest access and apply harsher enforcement.
• There's concern that non-immigration detainees could also be housed in these facilities.

"CoreCivic said...they are already in talks with ICE about selling more of their facilities. GEO Group has said...they would like to sell their facilities. DHS definitely has the money..."
— Wendy Fry [34:33]

---

12. Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the strategy:
  "They're saying themselves, DHS...this is a deliberate strategy to make their detention build out more permanent and harder to roll back..."
  — Wendy Fry [16:41]
• On the dark possibilities:
  "You see the federal government calling protesters domestic terrorists...it's really alarming where it could go, if you think about it."
  — Wendy Fry [36:44][37:21]
• On the grim outlook:
  "It's a pretty bleak, pretty big outlook for immigration detention, which was not really a great outlook to begin with."
  — James [34:01]

---

Conclusion & Takeaways

• DHS is “future-proofing” U.S. immigrant detention by owning, not just leasing, massive prison facilities—removing levers for local resistance and oversight.
• Legal recourse and transparency are diminishing, as federal ownership evades state health and safety inspections, and oversight agencies are shuttered.
• Conditions inside remain dire, while families and advocates face ever-greater barriers to communication and support.
• Community organizing is increasingly important and visible, yet faces daunting odds against a system flush with cash and legal authority.
• There are avenues for follow-up: Support advocacy groups, monitor oversight lawsuits, and push for public awareness as the system continues to expand—often out of public view.

---

How to Follow & Support Further Reporting

• Wendy Fry’s work:
  • All stories at calmatters.org
  • Operation Return to Sender documentary is on YouTube
  • Stories published in Spanish
  • Contact: [e-mail]

"I'm always hoping to hear from people so we can do more in-depth reporting about what's going on inside these facilities."
— Wendy Fry [39:42]

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For listeners:

• This episode offers an urgent window into the evolving infrastructure of immigrant detention, and the deep systemic obstacles to justice and transparency. For more coverage, check CalMatters and contact Wendy Fry with tips/experiences.

---

Further Listening:
See It Could Happen Here’s episode back-catalogue for related episodes on migrant aid, the history of detention, and U.S. civil rights struggles.

Transcript

[Wendy Fry]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Here at the Happiness Lab, we're serving up some hot takes for the summer. Big ideas that just might reshape how you think about your well being. Like the radical notion that we should get rid of small talk completely.

[Wendy Fry]

We talk about current events, we talk about what you do for a living. But not, do you love what you

[Jake Brennan]

do for a living?

[James]

Is this your dream job?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

For more surprising ideas backed by psychological science, check out our new series, Happiness Hot Takes. Listen to the Happiness lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Wendy Fry]

Betrayal Weekly is back with brand new stories from threatening text messages disturbing a small Midwestern town.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

It was from an unknown number.

[Wendy Fry]

Who else is getting these messages?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Why did it start with us?

[Wendy Fry]

Talong cons and stolen identities? Who lies about being this sick? This was the last time I ever

[Jake Brennan]

believed a word she said.

[Wendy Fry]

Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. This season we've got some awesome guests ready to dole out advice. Guests like Tiffany Haddish kind of slide into people's DMs. I like bumble. Also girl farmersonly.com estate sales, funerals, auctions are usually good. There's a lot of good men there. Grocery stores near gyms, Darcy Carden, Sherry Oteri, Anna Faris, Dave Franco, Madeline Klein, Adam Scott, T.S. madison, and more. Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[James]

Hello, my love. I'm Ryan Weiss, and For the past 15 years, I've been an emotional intelligence coach and a spiritual guide. And I'm sharing with you my new podcast, Waking up with Ryan. Waking Up With Ryan is a daily audio video podcast here to help you connect with yourself before the noise of the day takes over. So let's start our days together with a moment of calm that's just for you. Listen to Waking up with ryan on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Wendy Fry]

Call Zone Media.

[James]

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the show. My name is James. We're starting again because I forgot to press the record button. And I am very lucky to be joined by Wendy Fry. And we're going to talk about a piece that Wendy did for CalMatters about the feds DHS buying detention centers in California. Hi, Wendy. Welcome to the show.

[Wendy Fry]

Hi, James. Thanks for having me.

[James]

Yeah. Okay, so let's begin, I suppose, by summarizing this article. We'll link to it. Right. I think everyone should read it. It's a really good piece of reporting. But can you explain, like, what is happening here with these two detention centers?

[Wendy Fry]

Sure, yeah. Thank you so much. So last week, CoreCivic, one of the largest private prison companies in the country, in the nation, publicly traded company, announced that they had sold two of their properties to the Department of Homeland Security for a billion and a half dollars. And those two facilities are two of the largest immigration detention facilities in California. Otay Mesa Detention center in San Diego county that has a capacity of just a little under 2,000 beds. And then the other one is the newly opened California City facility up in Kern county, and that one's just a little bit bigger with a capacity of 2,500 beds. And we learned the details about the sale through this filing with the Security Exchange Commission. Like I said, because it's a publicly traded company, they have to make some of the information about this deal public. And we learned that the Federal government paid 739 million, I think, for Otay Mesa. And then the other one was, I think about 730 million for California City. And we've done some additional reporting, too, since that article came out. We just last Friday were talking with the San Diego County Appraiser, the assessor's office, and Kern county and found out that the. The last appraised value on these properties was about a quarter of what the federal government paid for them. So the last appraised value, I think about 160 million for Otai Mesa. Not, I don't have the exact number, but around that. So they paid, you know, maybe four times. And of course, appraised value, we have to take it sort of with a grain of salt because it's not the market value. But it would be very hard to figure out what the market value is on a property like this because there just aren't very many of them. Both places are these huge, sprawling federal prisons that don't get sold very often. So it's hard to figure out what the market value is. But those were the last appraised value.

[James]

Yeah, sure. Not much of a market for giant prisons, I suppose. So, like, best guess.

[Wendy Fry]

Yeah, not much to compare it to as far as the sale.

[James]

Right.

[Wendy Fry]

Like. And on the federal government side, on Corecivic side, they said that this whole thing went through a very rigorous process of governmental review and that everything is above board there.

[James]

Yeah, so, yeah, of course they'll say that.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah.

[James]

These facilities, like, they spend a lot of money on them. Right. And they have a lot of money. Right now, they're sitting on a giant pile of money. Actually, before we talk about what they spent on them, people will remember when President Biden came into power, him saying he was going to end private prisons. Right. So we should just I guess, begin by explaining how that didn't include immigration detention and how these places have, like, as you say, they haven't discontinued, but in the last two years, I guess they're trying to expand immigration detention capacity.

[Wendy Fry]

Right, Right. Yes. So in California, particularly California, state officials have tried to ban private prison companies from, from operating within the state of California. And the Ninth Circuit didn't, Didn't uphold that. Like, the California passed a law, Governor Newsom signed it, it ended up in court. Geo Group and CoreCivic, the two largest private prison companies, were fighting against this and they won. The Ninth Circuit upheld that. California can't ban these facilities from operating, but they have pushed back a lot. And California lawmakers are trying to write a series and pass a series of laws that would require more of the tax revenue from these companies to be absorbed by the state and disincentivize, basically financially disincentivize these private prison companies from operating. And that is one of the reasons why dhs, in a statement that they put out, Jason Sweeney with ice, told me, you know, it's financially infeasible. It's become too burdensome from their point of view for the private prison companies to operate in California because of all the oversight and because of all the, you know, pushback that California officials have tried to do and have done as much as they can, basically, on.

[James]

Mm. Let's talk about this new, like, attempt to grow detention capacity. Right. Because their previous attempt was these warehouses. Right. We spoke to some folks in Social Circle on this show, Social Circle, Georgia, a while ago about that. So can you give people who haven't been following this little synopsis of why they've moved away from the putting human beings in warehouses models?

[Wendy Fry]

Sure. So the spending bill, the federal spending bill that President Trump signed last year included just the insanely unpleasant amount of money for immigration enforcement, like more than even the entire budget of the entire federal prison system. Right. It includes about $45 billion just for detention capacity alone. So they poured a ton that, like you said, they're sitting on just this huge pile of cash that they have to spend. They have to do something with that money. The plan at the beginning of the year were, as you mentioned, these Warehouses. Right. That they wanted to, from their perspective, sort of more intelligently design the both detention capacity and the deportation machine. I think. I'm not 100% sure which DHS officials said this. I think it was Tom Holman in Phoenix, but it could have been another DHS official. But basically they said they wanted to design the, quote, Amazon prime for humans. So, like, they want to make this as fast and as efficient as possible. They want to have a capacity to train up to 100,000 people on any given day. And they have a ton of cash, cash that they've never even seen before. Right. So buying up this billion and a half dollars of real estate in California is feasible to them. And they've signaled that owning it rather than leasing IT or having CoreCivic run it is more beneficial to them in not having to comply with the oversight. The different inspections and laws that California officials have tried to put into place that allows, for example, inspectors with the California Attorney General's office, and there was a 2024 law that California passed that would allow local health inspectors to go in and do a health inspection. San Diego county is the only place where they've actually tried to do that, and the private company pushed back. So they've said. DHS have said in their statement that, you know, owning this rather than another entity owning it gives them the upper hand as far as avoiding some of this oversight. And the federal courts have upheld that, actually.

[James]

Right. So let's dig into that a little bit. Right. A lot of people have started paying attention to immigration detention approximately halfway through January in 2025.

[Wendy Fry]

Right, right.

[James]

And if you had been paying attention before in California, you would have known that thousands of contained without food, water or shelter in the open air for months, not like an individual duration stay was at most like a week. But the practice continued in Jacumba, right? Yep, in Jacumba and then down in San Ysidro. Yeah. And then in at least three places in Jacumba, I believe. There were also other OAD sites that we didn't find, at least I didn't know about. And then they'd also happened in Arizona as well. But at that point in time, there was not a great deal of inspection by the county. I saw a Office of the Immigration Detention Ombudsman person once. Their visit didn't seem to result in any changes. But like, has California commented on why they suddenly care about the, I guess, the conditions migrants are detained in when they didn't seem to care in a way that mattered three years ago?

[Wendy Fry]

Right. They Certainly weren't coming out in statements and pushing back as hard as we have seen them push back against the Trump administration. That's true. And I have asked, like, top California officials that in an interview I did with California Attorney General Rob Bonta. I did ask, and I was like, this is my really hard question for you is, you know, it didn't seem like you were pushing back in the same way when, you know, there were babies sheltering in porta Potties, right?

[James]

Oh, yeah. One night in September, I remember a lady breastfeeding a baby. The baby was shivering, which, like, it's not a good sign when babies are shivering. And like, I was warming up milk in the camping stove in my truck and my friend was cycling toddlers in and out of, like, a little warming station they built. Like, I've been through the Darien Gap, and that's still some of the worst shit that I've ever seen. It was horrific.

[Wendy Fry]

Right. I remember thinking, like, where is the un where is, like, the Red Cross? Like, this is a humanitarian crisis out here.

[James]

Yeah.

[Wendy Fry]

And it was in such a remote area. It was so. It lacked so much both from the media and public officials. And so we did talk about that at one point. And Bonta's response was we had a working relationship with the Biden administration that wasn't controversial or wasn't adversarial in the way that our relationship is with the Trump administration. And so we could work on that stuff behind the scenes. Now, I know you were out there. Anybody who was out there would say nobody really ever saw the results of that collaboration or that work. Right. And, you know, it is a concern for sure, that it does seem like California politicians do get more bang for their buck in opposing the immigration policies of the Trump administration, when it's important to note that a lot of this infrastructure, including especially a lot of the AI infrastructure that are being used to surveil people who are against these policies and the Palantir, the AI technologies that is being used right now to find people and detain them without making the headlines. And in quite as a high profile way, as we saw last year, all that was put into place by the Biden administration. Right. Yeah. And so it is important to note that for sure that a lot of these systems that now the Trump administration is able to utilize were handed to them.

[Jake Brennan]

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[Wendy Fry]

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[James]

Let's entertain the idea that we have a midterm election and a presidential election, and they are conducted in a way that we kind of are accustomed to with elections and the results are respected. Let's imagine we have a Democrat in 2028. Let's do the math there. The feds will still own these two giant detention centers. Right. The way that immigration, in my experience works is like, it only seems to move in one direction, I guess. Like, this is why this is such a concern.

[Wendy Fry]

They're saying themselves, DHS is saying themselves that this is a deliberate strategy to make their detention build out more permanent and harder to roll back with the changing political winds. Right. And so they're acknowledging that. That that's what they're trying to do.

[James]

That's not great. Yeah, yeah, that's.

[Wendy Fry]

But yeah, so it's from their own mouths. Right.

[James]

So, yeah. Deeply concerning. I wonder, though, like, previously they've had a practice of moving people out of San Diego County. Like, I guess a practice is the wrong word. There is, like, a number of incidents that I'm aware of where they've moved people away from their lawyer in San Diego County. Right. To a detention facility like Dilly or somewhere in Texas or somewhere like that. I guess I wouldn't make that impossible. If it did the same as it was before, it'll just be from federal prison to a private prison, maybe.

[Wendy Fry]

Well, it's a less favorable federal jurisdiction. Right. A district. So in San Diego, I would say probably it's a more favorable outcome to go before a federal district judge in San Diego for a possible habeas petition and to slow down the process as far as being deported. Right. I think that that probably happens faster in a federal district in Texas than it would here.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Wendy Fry]

I have heard a lot from families about family members being moved out to, you know, these very remote. I mean, there's been an effort for a long time to make sure that these facilities are set up in very remote areas of California and in other parts of the country in Remote areas that are hard for advocates, hard for attorneys, hard for journalists like me to get to. To report what's going on in them. You know, it's like six hours to get to California City as a drive. I've made way more times than I' to now at this point. Right. So, you know, it does.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

It.

[Wendy Fry]

It does impact the amount of resources that people can be connected to. It is the biggest expense that ICE has is moving people around the country. I remember Senator Padilla did say, like, it seems sort of illogical the way they're moving. Like, they're moving people from California out of California while they're moving people in other places into California. And it seems illogical the way they're moving people around. But the impact of that. I don't know what their purpose or their intention is of doing that, but the impact of is. Is. It really disorients people. Right. It's like, where am I? What am I doing?

[MC Gin]

What.

[Wendy Fry]

What are the rules here? How do I get my phone card set up? It takes them days where they're kind of pushed back on their heels trying to figure out what the system and the guards and the new place where they go. And then, like I said, it's definitely makes it harder for people when they get moved around to these different facilities. And it's something that we're definitely seeing happen a lot more. Definitely hearing it from a lot of families in la, they have concern about people being moved way out to California City, which is, like, in the middle of the Mojave Desert. Right. It's hard for families to get out there.

[James]

Yeah, yeah. It's like something Kern County, I think. Right. But, like, it's a hike from anywhere from any major population center in California. It's a long drive.

[Wendy Fry]

Yeah. It's like an hour and 40 minutes from, like, the farthest Eastern community in L. A. Like, cheerlead. They have an office in, like, eastern LA and I think it was like an hour and 20 to an hour and 40 to get to that office from California City. So it's just. Just remote. It's in the middle of nowhere, you know?

[James]

Yeah.

[Wendy Fry]

And if you think about where. Where would I put a place that's in the middle of nowhere where I'd have the least amount of oversight? Right. Like that. That's the place. Like, that's definitely where you would pick.

[James]

Yeah, definitely. Compared to, like, Otai Mesa Detention center, there are bad things about what happens there, but, like, it is relatively close. People can get to it. There are almost always people There, like, outside, if someone is released or people protesting what's happening there. Like, you say, like, it's hard even to do things, like, for someone to get money on their. On their phone card or like someone I've reported on many times on the show was detained at Dilly. And, like, it's difficult to work out how to, like, put money on their commissary so they can buy food because the food they get is absolutely awful. And things like this. And every time you move that, that's different again. Right. Like, it's.

[Wendy Fry]

I was talking to an individual in El Salvador and they were saying that they were moved around maybe nine times before they were deported. And each time they got to the different facility was like, where am I? And who are kind of the leaders in this place? Or who do I talk to? Because I need to get this worked out. And sometimes they wouldn't even be able to get the phone card set up before the next time they got loaded back on a bus to go somewhere else.

[James]

Yeah.

[Wendy Fry]

Even let their family know where they are. And that's why it's so concerning that ICE is going around opening facilities. Like, we had one facility open, I think, also in Kern County. It's like, right next to Golden State Annex. So it's like kind of part of that property. But they didn't tell anybody. Right. Like, nobody knew that this facility was open until we reported on it opening. And, you know, if you're a family member and you're looking on that ICE detainer, you're trying to find your family member. If we have these, you know, almost. Almost like black site ICE detention facilities opening up that nobody knows are running, how are you going to find your family member if it's not even listed there in the facilities? Right. I mean, there's been a lot of reporting about how sometimes people are disappearing into these systems. But that's one of the reasons why California has tried to set these laws to say, like, you have to give the public a certain amount of notice before you open a new facility so that people are aware that it's coming and they can have an opportunity to, you know, say, go to the California City Council meeting and make their opposition known. But we've seen both ICE and the private detention companies have, in some cases, been able to find ways around those rules.

[James]

Yeah. One of the, I guess the interesting things that we have seen in the last maybe six months, even maybe some. Somewhere that mostly this year. Right. Is like, communities coming together to oppose these things and data centers.

[Wendy Fry]

Right.

[James]

Or like across a wide swath of American politics. Like, a lot of the folks organizing in social circle are not people who I think would generally identify as progressive politically, but they were opposed to all the local consequences as well as the abuses that happen in these detention centers. It's definitely getting harder, I guess, for them to build from scratch detention centers, right?

[Wendy Fry]

That's correct. I mean, some of these, when at the beginning of the year when they had the warehouse plan and they were planning some of these mega detention centers which like they were trying, trying to hold, you know, 10 to 12,000 people, which is crazy. More than Rikers, right? Right. Yeah. Like the largest would be the largest facility anywhere. And you know, they were talking about even making their own wastewater treatment plants, bringing in their own services because the cities where the local municipalities wouldn't be able to handle the influx of people, of employees, of, you know, the roads, all the, all the different services. And so I think that's one of the things that people are realizing is that these properties have an impact outside of just the people that they're detaining. Right. They have an impact, a ripple effect on the entire community. And I think people are becoming aware of that now.

[James]

Yeah, definitely. And it seems like, yeah, that they're trying to do other things. I know they sold some of those warehouses at a loss as well, but it doesn't matter in the, in the grand scheme of how much money they have.

[Wendy Fry]

Yeah, they have to get rid of $45 billion. So they really aren't, aren't stressing the losses. You know, it's a weird problem to have, but they feel like they have to spend 45 billion or it's kind of like use it or lose it. If they don't buy the next. I think by, I think it's three years that they have. So I think we will see them buying more properties for sure. I think they really have their eye on Adelanto. I set a script that like scans the SEC to like automatically alert me if any of those companies sell anything. Right.

[James]

Oh, cool.

[Wendy Fry]

The other thing to keep in mind too about this is, you know, the federal government doesn't pay local and state taxes. So where they go into these small cash strapped cities like California City and say, hey, you're going to get $2 million a year in tax revenue from this facility opening. And that's kind of how they convince or like they try to win over the local politicians with hey, we need this money, we need this facility to lower our water bills and stuff like that. But none of that is going to. It's like a bait and switch. Right. They're not going to be getting that $2 million tax revenue anymore because, you know, other than the income tax of the employers, maybe that might. But yeah, so that's another, you know, part of it.

[James]

Yeah, yeah. Bait and switch is a good way to describe it. Like, people think they're getting one thing and they end up getting another thing.

[Jake Brennan]

I'm Jake Brennan, and on my podcast Hollywoodland, I revisit some of the biggest stories from Hollywood history. Separating the myths people want to believe from the reality underneath them. Like how the story of Marilyn Monroe isn't just the story of a Hollywood icon. Marilyn Monroe has become so iconic that her death can only be explained through conspiracy theories. And for some fans who can't let go, these stories have metastasized from conjecture to accepted fact. So on August 4, 1962, Marilyn Monroe died. Then the rumors started and she died again. And now we're going to set the record straight and learn about the way Marilyn Monroe actually died. The third way. Learn more about what happens when fame, media obsession and conspiracy collide. Listen to Hollywoodland on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

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[MC Gin]

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[James]

We made it.

[MC Gin]

We can't. I'm like, we. You know, I'm like, I know these guys, but who are you? I'm McGin. And this is last but not least, I'll be chatting with guests from all walks of life about the power of humor when it comes to facing difficult times. Like the co founder of Ruff Ryders, Darren D. Dean, talking about as a kid. Do you remember that we met even way before that?

[Wendy Fry]

Let me think. Did you walk up to the gate?

[MC Gin]

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[James]

D. That was you.

[MC Gin]

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[Dr. Laurie Santos]

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[Wendy Fry]

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[Dr. Laurie Santos]

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[Wendy Fry]

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[James]

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[Wendy Fry]

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[Dr. Laurie Santos]

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[James]

You talked about the employers, like, when these facilities change hands, will it then be like federal employees or will they still be staffed by CoreCivic?

[Wendy Fry]

Yeah, so that's the, that's the interesting thing is the federal government is going to own the real estate. But corecific has said in its SEC filings that it expects, it thinks that it's going to be keeping those contracts to continue operating the facilities. So the contract for California City runs through August 2027. The one for Otay Mesa is supposed to end in 2029, but there's an option to extend it another five years. And my impression is that ICE is quite happy with the way CoreCivic is running these facilities and Geo Group is running these facilities. So that would mean the same guards, the same medical directors, the same kind of operations and day to day at both facilities. And they plan on keeping their existing management contract. Now, they acknowledge, they acknowledge in the SEC filing that there's no guarantee that they get to keep it. But that's it sounds like that's the deal that they've worked out and negotiated with the federal government.

[James]

Sure. Like even when they've done these, like they stood up that one camp, East Montana they call it, which is still run by a contractor even though it's on Department of Defense land. And the conditions there are atrocious from, from what we saw with the inspector general report. And it doesn't seem to be a concern.

[Wendy Fry]

Yeah, that's the one outside of El Paso.

[James]

Yeah.

[Wendy Fry]

Place I've seen it.

[James]

The tent camp.

[Wendy Fry]

Oh, okay. Outside of Park. Yeah. The white tent camp. Yeah.

[James]

Yeah.

[Wendy Fry]

You know, seems like they're violating their own rules. Right. When they. They have these rules, they have these set of standards that they have set up. And that's the first thing CORCIVIC or GEO will say is like, hey, we follow all the federal standards that are set up for us. Right. For detention standards. But it seemed, especially with that one that you're mentioning, that they violated all their own standards in setting that place up.

[James]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that place is particularly egregious. Like, even among immigration detention facilities, some of the stuff in that inspector general's report was genuinely shocking. And I thought I'd lost the capacity to be shocked by this stuff, but, yeah, there's lots of terrible things have happened. Like, I think you reported on the Mongolian person who was. Who used sign language and was detained for, I think, months without an interpreter, if I'm remembering correctly.

[Wendy Fry]

Right. Yeah. He had never gotten a chance to even tell his story on how he had crossed the border because CBP had, like, really confused his story. He was telling them about his sister and they thought that. That it was his daughter, and they were using like a. I don't know, AI. Some kind of online translation thing that was not even close to what his actual story was. And, yeah, he spent months without able to tell anybody what happened to him. And, you know, finally. Yeah, after we did our story, like, finally, the ICE attorney was trying to set up, like, a relay team of translation, but the federal judge was just said, like, doesn't he have a right to participate in his own proceedings? Like, does it? Isn't he. Shouldn't he be an active participant in the proceedings against him? Right.

[James]

Yeah.

[Wendy Fry]

And not just a bystander in that. And then. So then he. The judge ruled that they had to get him an interpreter. And I guess they decided it was too hard to do that because they let him out fairly quickly after that ruling. But, yeah, I mean, some of the conditions that we've heard about, I mean, obviously, I think everybody's heard, like, overcrowding, really severe lack of access to medical care.

[James]

Yeah.

[Wendy Fry]

The horrific food. We've been hearing about how bad the food is for decades now in there.

[James]

Yeah.

[Wendy Fry]

You know, smelling moldy waters. Particular problem in California City. And just sometimes just like, kind of the retaliation that people face if they try to bring an issue up or if they try to you know, advocate for somebody else. They feel like, oftentimes they say, they tell us that they feel like, you know, they get sort of retaliated against for that. You know, Mesa Verde is one of the. Have one of the most egregious violations that we've ever heard of of like the hunger strike. The hunger strikers g got dragged out and, and according to them, you know, beat up or handled very roughly and then taken to Texas and force fed with a tube down their nose. Right. Like, yeah, we. There's definitely been some very egregious things that have happened inside these detention centers. And that's why it's so important for people to be able to, you know, especially the Congress members or. And the local state inspectors. It's very important for somebody to be able to get in there and see what the conditions are like inside.

[James]

Yeah, this court case doesn't matter anymore, like with this new development. Right. The court case, at least it matters in other detention facilities, but not in, in Ota Mesa, specifically in San Diego County.

[Wendy Fry]

Yeah. It's going to remain to be seen. I think, like I said, the federal courts have upheld that the state can't overstep their authority and like step on federal authority to carry out immigration enforcement. Right.

[James]

Yeah.

[Wendy Fry]

I think that those health inspectors, they already have done their health inspection. So they already did one and the report, I think is coming out at the end of July, so there will be that. But. And then I think my understanding is San Diego county plans to fight.

[James]

That's right. I thought they were going to appeal it. Yeah.

[Wendy Fry]

Yeah. They're trying to try to press the issue in court to see if they can continue going in there and doing their inspections. But like I said, you know, the courts haven't tended to rule that way. And DHS thinks, like, we know from their own statement that they think that this will sort of put an end to the different inspections and oversight stuff that the state and the local officials want to do.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's a pretty bleak, pretty big outlook for immigration detention, which was not really a, A great outlook to begin with, I guess.

[Wendy Fry]

Yeah. But it's, it's not come 100% decided. Like, it still is an open question. Whether these inspection laws will survive the federal ownership or not remains to be seen, I think.

[James]

Right. Yeah. You said they had plans for other locations. I'm guessing they have plans for GeoGroup locations as well. Do you think this is their plan going forward to try and acquire all of these private immigration. They have the money to I assume.

[Wendy Fry]

Yeah, I think everything points to. Yes on that. I think CoreCivic said in their statement that they are already in talks with ICE about selling more of their facilities. Geo Group has said on earnings calls that they would like to sell their facilities. And like you mentioned, you know, DHS definitely has the money thanks to that massive appropriation from the federal government. So, you know, really, they've already said that it's kind of their preference to outright own them rather than lease them or have a private company operate them in California.

[James]

Yeah.

[Wendy Fry]

So, yeah, I think we will see more of it and I'm definitely, you know, trying to monitor it as much as possible to see when that happens.

[James]

I wonder if this also changes the legal environment for people who are either protesting or like they're in a, in a sort of mutual aid capacity for the migrants. Really. Sometimes people can hear migrants shouting from inside and they can hear them like asking for someone to put money on their phone card or what have you.

[Wendy Fry]

Right.

[James]

Or just describing their conditions, relating them. Will it being a federal owned facility, do you think that changes? Like because it's legal to stand outside a thing. Right. But it's. If it's a fed facility, maybe it's even harder.

[Wendy Fry]

Yes, I do think it will change. I do think we'll see the federal government trying to crack down harder on protesters that come. You know, in Ota Mesa, they had the, the people were putting information about how they were being held in, in bottles and throwing the bottles over the gate.

[James]

Yeah.

[Wendy Fry]

I do think for sure that the federal government will operate differently now that it's federal property. Another thing that's very interesting, you know, they already hold people who are not immigrant detainees in California City. So they have a section of that facility that are like people who are in the custody of the US Marshals already. So there are already people in there who aren't immigrants. I wonder if we might see more of an effort to detain more people in these facilities who are not immigrants.

[James]

Right, yeah, yeah.

[Wendy Fry]

Because they have promises made to CoreCivic and GeoGroup that they are going to try to give them a certain population of detainees per day. Right, right. So that's another part that remains to be seen.

[James]

Yeah, that's also super concerning.

[Wendy Fry]

Yeah, it really is super concerning of where it could all go. Right. Like especially you see, you know, the federal government calling protesters domestic terrorists and stuff like that. It is really concerning.

[James]

Yeah. And we saw that in like, I was in Minneapolis in like late January and the same thing happens there. Right. They have the Their federal building is called the Whipple Building. And, like, they do immigration detention there, but then that was also where people who were detained for protesting against that immigration, those immigration actions were taken. They use the same facility. And, like, there's a certain kind of menace to that. Right.

[Wendy Fry]

Like, it's really alarming where it could go, if you think about it. Right?

[James]

Yeah, it's really, really concerning. Like, this is one of those things that's very little people can. Can do much about. Right. It's a, like, willing seller, willing buyer kind of situation where unfortunately, like, there's pretty few means for address. Like, I hope California is successful with being able to inspect them. At least that would be something. And I know there are lots of really good groups doing work to keep people out of detention, to help with habeas, to. To improve conditions in detention, etc. So, like, people can. Can help out those groups if they want to. But yeah, it does seem like this is a particularly kind of bleak area of immigration enforcement right now.

[Wendy Fry]

Right. And especially since, you know, one of the first things that Trump did is shut down the mechanisms that people can appeal or report. Like, you know, when you have a complaint about something that's happened to you within immigration detention, you can you complain about it either to the Office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties. There's another dhs, and both of those have been shut down right now and not funded right now. So those mechanisms with which you can get any oversight from within the federal government right now are not operating.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, it's oido, the other one.

[Wendy Fry]

Yeah, that might be it. Yeah, that's right.

[James]

Yeah, I've seen them precisely once. Wendy, if people want to follow your work, you've done lots of good stuff on California. Calmatters does some really good reporting. You had great reporting about the Operation Return to Sender, for example, back when. That was shocking.

[Wendy Fry]

Thank you so much. Yeah.

[James]

How can people find you?

[Wendy Fry]

Yeah, that's right. So all our stories are there on calmatters.org thank you for that. And then our Operation Return to Sender documentary is on YouTube, so you can find that there. We did a lot of work to show kind of what Bovino was saying and what was actually happening on the ground. So that's a really good one to watch.

[James]

Yeah. And you guys publish also in Spanish, right?

[Wendy Fry]

Yes, we do. More recently, we started translating more of our stories into Spanish so that folks who want to read it in Spanish can find that there too.

[James]

Yeah, that's great. That's super nice.

[Wendy Fry]

And I speak fluent Spanish. If people need to contact me in Spanish, I can communicate there too.

[James]

Nice. Yep. And there's a contact link for you on the website. I'm guessing if people want to talk to you about some of this stuff, Right?

[Wendy Fry]

Absolutely. Or yeah, I can just share my email for sure. It's wendyowmatters.org and I am always hoping to hear from people so we can do more in depth reporting about what's going on inside these facilities. So thank you so much for that opportunity to share that.

[James]

Yeah, of course. Thanks for doing this. Thanks for taking the time to talk to us anytime.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

It could happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media.

[Wendy Fry]

For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for it could happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Here at the Happiness Lab, we're serving up some hot takes for the summer. Big ideas that just might reshape how you think about your well being. Like the radical notion that we should get rid of small talk completely.

[Wendy Fry]

We talk about current events. We talk about what you do for a living. But not do you love what you

[Jake Brennan]

do for a living?

[James]

Is this your dream job?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

For more surprising ideas backed by psychological science, check out our new series, Happiness Hot Takes. Listen to the Happiness lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Wendy Fry]

Betrayal Weekly is back with brand new stories from threatening text messages disturbing a small Midwestern town.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

It was from an unknown number.

[Wendy Fry]

Who else is getting these messages?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Why did it start with us?

[Wendy Fry]

To long cons and stories, Stolen identities. Who lies about being this sick? This was the last time I ever

[Jake Brennan]

believed a word she said.

[Wendy Fry]

Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Hey, it's Nora Jones. And my podcast Playing along is back with more of my favorite musicians. Check out my newest episode with Finneas.

[James]

So I went home and I asked Billie if she wanted to sing it. She immediately made it her own thing. You really know how to make me cry when you give me those ocean eyes and I'm scared.

[Wendy Fry]

So come hang out with us in

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

the studio and listen to Playing along on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jake Brennan]

It just came out. Jeremy, what did you just do?

[Wendy Fry]

You just set yourself up for failure.

[MC Gin]

I've never heard you tell this story.

[James]

I've never told this story.

[MC Gin]

This must have been tucked deep, deep in the Jeremy Lin file. My name is Mc Gin. Excited to tell you about Laugh but not Least. I'll be chatting with guests from all walks of life about the power of humor when it comes to facing difficult times. These will be conversations that remind us all life is hard. Laugh harder. Listen. And last but not least, with McGin on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, this is an iHeart podcast.

[Wendy Fry]

Guaranteed Human.