S2E320 How to Argue Less and Talk More - a Conversation with Jefferson Fisher

Summary

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Podcast Summary: It's a Good Life with Brian Buffini

Episode: S2E320 – How to Argue Less and Talk More – a Conversation with Jefferson Fisher
Date: August 12, 2025
Guest: Jefferson Fisher, Board Certified Attorney and Author of The Next Conversation

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Episode Overview

In this illuminating episode, host Brian Buffini welcomes Jefferson Fisher—renowned trial attorney, viral social media communicator, and the author of The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More. The conversation explores Jefferson’s practical, compassionate tools for defusing conflict, enhancing dialogue, and developing assertive yet empathetic communication skills, both in business and at home. The episode is rich with actionable frameworks, memorable metaphors, and personal stories illustrating how to cultivate more meaningful, less contentious conversations in a polarized world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. From Law Practice to Internet Fame

• How Jefferson Turned Legal Skills Into Viral Communication Advice
  • After leaving a large defense firm to start his own practice, Jefferson began experimenting with social media, initially making legal videos—but pivoted to focus on communication skills.
  • He found success by imagining he was talking to just one person, focusing on authenticity and value rather than self-promotion.

“I asked myself…would I actually follow my account? Is it entertaining, or just selfish?” — Jefferson Fisher (03:19)

2. The Philosophy Behind “Argue Less, Talk More”

• Why Winning Arguments Isn’t the Goal
  • Trying to “win” an argument often leads to losing the relationship. It’s more effective to seek understanding and gently untangle disagreements.

“The more you tell somebody they’re wrong, the more convinced they are that they’re right.” — Jefferson Fisher (06:03)
“Rather than seeing arguments as a competition…see them as something to unravel.” — Jefferson Fisher (06:28)

3. Early Influences: Socratic Method & Emotional Awareness

• Learning Communication in the Courtroom and at Home
  • Jefferson’s upbringing—observing his father’s depositions and the Socratic questioning at home—instilled in him the art of diplomacy, listening, and curiosity.

“He taught me through questions…little things that would make me kind of step out of the moment.” — Jefferson Fisher (09:10)

4. Understanding Context and the “Person Behind the Mask”

• Why The Person in Front of You Isn’t Really Who You’re Talking To
  • Every interaction is colored by unseen personal struggles. The ‘issue’ is rarely the real issue—it’s often a symptom of something deeper.

“The issue is rarely the issue.” — Jefferson Fisher (11:35)

• Cultivating curiosity—“I wonder where this is coming from?”—invites grace and defuses conflict.

5. Setting Conversation Goals and “Landing the Plane”

• A Simple, Assertive Framework for Difficult Conversations
  • Don’t let the other person define the purpose or direction—set your goal in advance and share it at the outset.
  • Three-step “frame” for any tough talk:
    1. State the topic
    2. Name the desired takeaway/feeling
    3. Get buy-in

“If you do not set a goal, then the other person will set the goal for you.” — Jefferson Fisher (13:49)
“A simple phrase: ‘I want to walk away with….’” — Jefferson Fisher (18:32)

6. Realistic vs. Unrealistic Conversation Goals

• Unrealistic: Expecting Immediate Admissions/Apologies or to Change Minds
• Realistic: Seeking Understanding, Acknowledgement, or Starting a Longer-Term Dialogue

“A realistic goal is saying, ‘How can I make this person feel understood?’” — Jefferson Fisher (21:06)

7. The Two Phases of Every Argument (Ignition & Cooling)

• Ignition: Escalation, emotional override, fight-or-flight, often irrational.
• Cooling: Regret, apology, clarity, slower tone.
• The goal is to shortcut ignition by bringing cooling-phase skills into the conversation earlier; deploying calm and empathy defuses escalation.

“What works well in the cooling phase…I’m teaching you to apply it in everyday conversation so the ignition phase never kicks off.” — Jefferson Fisher (25:53)

8. The Power of Mirroring and Validation

• The “Mirror Back” Process (Used in Buffini Coaching)
  • Calmly restating what you hear prompts clarification and accelerates de-escalation.

“It’s making them feel heard, making them feel acknowledged. They don’t feel like they have to line up all of their defenses.” — Jefferson Fisher (27:22)

9. Assertiveness vs. Aggression vs. Passivity

• Assertiveness balances respect for self and others.
  • Confidence is not a prerequisite; assertiveness creates confidence.

“Confidence is as assertive does.” — Jefferson Fisher (30:13)

• Use “I” statements and clearly state boundaries:
  • “I don’t respond to that tone.”
  • “If you continue…, this is the end of the conversation.”

“Once you find [assertiveness]…confidence is built by the reps.” — Jefferson Fisher (34:32)

10. Managing Defensiveness (Self and Others)

• When others are defensive:
  • State what you agree with, what’s helpful, or what you’ve learned—even if you disagree on content.
  • Use a pause (breath) before responding to regulate emotions and appear thoughtful.
• Avoid phrasing like “No disrespect, but…”; instead, preempt the reaction by acknowledging it:
  • “You’ll probably think this sounds rude…” paradoxically invites the opposite response.

“The number one thing you can do…let your breath be the first word that you say.” — Jefferson Fisher (36:25)
“If you want to sound intelligent, you add about 3-5 seconds before you respond.” — Jefferson Fisher (37:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Arguments:

  “When you set out to win an argument, you will eventually lose the relationship.” — Jefferson Fisher (06:03)

• On Communication Frameworks:

  “A very simple way is just use the phrase: ‘I want to walk away with…’” — Jefferson Fisher (18:32)

• On Assertiveness:

  “Aggression respects nobody. Being extremely passive doesn't respect yourself. Assertive can respect both.” — Jefferson Fisher (30:13)

• On Emotional Triggers:

  “The closer they are to you, the more they know exactly what button to press.” — Jefferson Fisher (33:18)

• On Goal Setting:

  “If you do not set a goal, then the other person will set the goal for you. They will start to decide why you're talking to them...” — Jefferson Fisher (13:49)

• On Handling Defensiveness:

  “Let your breath be the first word that you say...what you say after that breath will probably not have been the same thing you would have said...” — Jefferson Fisher (36:25)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:19] – Jefferson’s origin story: from defense law to social media stardom
• [06:03] – Why trying to “win” arguments is self-defeating
• [11:13] – “The person in front of you isn’t the one you’re talking to”
• [13:49] – The necessity of setting goals for tough conversations
• [15:42] – 3-step conversation framing technique
• [20:26] – What’s a realistic (vs. unrealistic) goal in a conversation
• [23:25] – The two phases of every argument: ignition and cooling
• [27:22] – Mirror back technique and validation for de-escalation
• [29:14] – How to develop assertiveness and confidence
• [32:56] – The “manual” vs. “remote control” mindset for boundaries
• [35:21] – Diagnosing and reducing defensiveness
• [36:25] – Breath and pause as emotional regulation tools
• [38:34] – How to reframe statements to preempt defensiveness
• [40:46+] – Quickfire “Good Life” questions (favorite advice, book, movie, etc.)

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Episode Finale: Good Life Reflections

Personal Touch:

• Jefferson’s idea of a “good life” is simple: mornings with his children and family.

“A good life is the mornings where I wake up and…all I see is my son and my daughter's little bedhead right in my face…That's the good stuff.” — Jefferson Fisher (43:23)

Brian’s Closing Endorsement:
Brian highly recommends The Next Conversation for anyone wanting to elevate their communication skills—essential for business and family in today’s polarized world.

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Actionable Takeaways

• Set an explicit goal for every important conversation.
• Frame tough discussions using the “what / takeaway / buy-in” model.
• Seek first to understand—get curious, not combative.
• Use “I” statements and clear, calm boundaries to be assertive, not aggressive.
• Employ pauses and mirroring to foster calm and mutual understanding.
• Remember that every argument has an ignition and a cooling phase—aim to short-circuit escalation by deploying cooling skills early.

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For Business Leaders and Entrepreneurs:
Mastering these conversation skills isn’t just about resolving conflict—it’s about building lasting trust, stronger relationships, and resilient teams in any business or personal setting.

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Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

Welcome to It's a Good Life, the podcast for entrepreneurs where it's all about growing yourself and your business. Here's your host, founder of America's largest business coaching company, Brian Buffini.

[Brian Buffini]

Well, the top of the morning to you and welcome to It's a Good Life. I'm your host, Brian Buffini, and today we have just a fantastic guest. I've really, really been looking forward to this interview. His name is Jefferson Fisher. Now he's a board certified attorney. That sounds about as exciting as watching paint dry. Yet I started getting YouTube clips from my kids about a year ago and they're like, dad, you got to talk to this guy. He's unbelievable. He's got a great way of explaining things. He's got a great way of communicating. And then as I continued on, on my journey and more and more of my core relationships and friends and people who put on events, the Ramsey organization, many other groups that kept saying, hey, have you. Do you know Jefferson Fisher? I gotta introduce you to Jefferson Fisher. Well, eventually, if my network keeps doing that, I'll take action on it. So we started stalking Jefferson a little bit ago and reached out to him. He has what we need, all of us today. His book, it's called the Next Conversation. It says argue less and talk more. And he has a gift. He's able to help diffuse tense situation, communicate with excellence and grace. And this argue less, talk more concept is absolutely brilliant. We're going to dive into it today. This is going to be a podcast you're going to want to listen to several times. At least one of the times you listen to it, you're going to want to be in a place where you can take notes because there is some how tos and some insights and tactics here that are just brilliant. We want to dive in. I know that's a big, lofty introduction. Jefferson, I've put the ball on the tee here for you, and it's a lot to live up to, but we are so delighted to have you because I know how valuable what you have to share will be for all of our listeners. So welcome to the program.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Thank you so much, Brian. I'm honored to be here. I'm excited. Tell your family hi for me.

[Brian Buffini]

Yeah, I will, I will. They're quite the crew. So let's get a little background here. What led you to write a book in the first place? Right, so lawyers aren't typically writing books that. Unless they're, you know, murder mystery or John Grisham. What led you to write this book?

[Jefferson Fisher]

You know, I, I never thought I'd write a book ever. It was not an idea that came from me, it was the followers that follow all my social media. I just never imagined it for my life until they said, please write a book, you should write a book, please put this in a book. And I thought, well, dang, I guess I need to learn how to write a book. So what did I do? I went to Google, typed in, how do you write a book? That's what I did. And then it worked out that I had been getting emails from different literary agents, but there was one in particular I felt drawn to and I went with them and got introduced really to the whole publishing world. And that's how it happened. I know that what I share can help people, practical strategies that are easy to implement. And this is for people that we can help every day.

[Brian Buffini]

So what led you to doing the YouTube stuff? How did you get into that?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I had just left a big defense firm, a big law firm down here in my part of town of Texas, and I started my own firm thinking I need to get on social media. So I started making videos, a few videos on legal things because I'd seen that with all these other attorneys. Again, I googled how do you do social media? I didn't know. So I then made a few legal videos and thought, this isn't me, like this just doesn't. I felt like I felt really cheesy. This is just me selling myself and you know, for anybody listening who's an entrepreneur and I know you have a lot of business, wonderful business minded people who are listening and follow you and your community. I asked myself the question, if I, if, if I didn't work where I work, would I still follow my own social media account? Like would I actually follow it? Is it entertaining? Is it provide value? Or is it just selfish for me? So I had to go through this kind of mindset shift. And so I began thinking, okay, what's one thing I can share with just one person? And I thought, well, I'll teach them how to communicate. This is what's resonated with me my whole life. And I have lots of tools that I teach my own clients and things that I've learned. And so rather than making a video and going, hey guys, everybody out there, I just decided to talk as if I'm talking to one person. Because really we are. You're just talking to the one person who's looking at their phone at any given time. And so that's where it began.

[Brian Buffini]

And you're very Humble in how you communicate it, because in any classic southeast Texas way. But I would say when somebody is able to be authentic, have something unique, and then provide insight and value to people, it tends to grow. And you do that. You know, the ability to make the abstract and complicated understandable in an easy to understand and entertaining way. I think that's where mastery is. And I think the more people can learn those skills, especially in business, I just think it's essential. So I'm an old school personal growth and development guy. I've been on the journey here for 40 years. Personal growth and development seminars, listening to speakers, being a speaker, doing all that stuff. So when I read your book, you know, to me, you know, they say there's nothing new under the sun. How to win friends and influence people seems to resonate through your work. You know, one of my favorite quotes is, a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion. Still, talk to me about arguments. We live in a world where everybody's got their sides, everything is polarized, and everybody's trying to make points and nobody's convincing anyone of anything. Talk about why winning an argument isn't really a good idea.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, it's this mindset that the more you tell somebody that they're wrong, the more convinced they are that they're right. They just, they cling to their opinion even more. So when you set out to win an argument, what's most likely to happen is you will eventually lose the relationship. Maybe not on the first argument where you have to have the last word, you have to be right. And we all know, everybody listening knows that there's that one person that comes to mind that they always have to have the last say, they always have to win in some sense. And those are people that are typically very lonely people you don't really want to be with. When you do this in a relationship context, really what you do is you've won to be the first to apologize, you've won awkward silence when you have to pass each other in the hallway or in the kitchen at the same time and you don't want to look at each other. Why? Because there's now this tension. And winning an argument just leaves you empty handed. And it's a mindset of, rather than seeing arguments as a competition as something to win, you see them as something to unravel, where you get to soften enough of the line to be able to untie the knot. Because if you pull your way and I pull mine, what's it do? Just makes the knot harder to undo. But if you soften enough, that means if you're asking more questions, if you lower your voice, if you say things calmer, it allows enough slack for people to actually communicate and come to a better understanding.

[Brian Buffini]

It's just who you are.

[Jefferson Fisher]

This is me.

[Brian Buffini]

Were you like this as a kid?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I loved it. I mean, I grew up, Brian. I. I'm the fifth generation trial attorney. Meaning when I got picked up from school, you know, I. I got dropped into my dad's deposition. Like, my dad would pause the deposition, go pick me up, because my mom had the other kids, and I'm the oldest of four. And so he would sit me in the corner with a yellow notepad and a pen and just be like, you need to be quiet. And so I just watched. I just watched.

[Brian Buffini]

How old are you doing this?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I was probably, you know, seven, six, seven.

[Brian Buffini]

I mean, I've been in depose many times. I'm normally trying not to wet my pants. You're seven years of age in the corner with a yellow pad?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Well. Well, to be fair, I'm typically. I was doodling, probably. I was drawing that time. He's not using me as co counsel, let's be clear. So he's not looking forward and leaning back for me to give him advice. Yeah. And I mean, I grew up around courthouses. I grew up knowing judges. I grew up watching a lot of closing arguments. And it just became part of that type to say I got really. I kind of got pulled to see behind the matrix very early in how people communicate. Because when you watch an attorney in trial talk to a witness, he's not just talking to the witness. It's 12 other people that are watching them. There's an opposing attorney, there's a judge, a court reporter, a bailiff, people in the back. Everybody's listening. And it's not even watching what he's saying. It's how he's saying. It's how he's setting it up for the next question. It's how he's arranging his questions that leads people to the answer without shoving it down their throat. And so being able to see that really early on, especially with my dad, who's a wonderful role model in diplomacy. He's very much. My dad back in the day would have been. He would have been right there with the stoics man. He's just. He's very. Yeah, he's very quick to listen, slow to speak type of personality. And that resonated on me throughout my life. I mean, when I grew up, I Kind of got the Socratic method from him. And that's for anybody who's been in law school. He taught me through questions. He wouldn't say, you need to do this. He'd say, well, why do you feel that way? Or what do you think they're going to say to that? Or if you do that, what do you think they're going to do? I mean, little bitty things that would make me kind of step out of the moment and I have a, you know, I'm upset with mom or something. He'd say, well, how do you think your mom feels right now? Like, little things that would go, huh, okay, that gets me out of that mode. So that's. It's been. It's been all kind of part of my upbringing. And my parents prayed for it. My parents prayed for wisdom over my life.

[Brian Buffini]

Yeah, well, you have a lot of it. And what a great mentoring. I've been described as a very good listener, but I'm quick to speak. So I love the idea that you have the opposite gift. And I want to learn from people. I think most people are quick to speak and not good listeners. I've learned to be a quick listener. I was in a large family growing up. You know, you're firing along, firing along. You had to pick your spot, but you had to resonate with the spot. In your book, repeatedly, you say the person in front of you isn't the one you're talking to now. You gave the illustration about the closing arguments in the court case. I'm never going to be making closing arguments in a court case. So how is the person in front of me the one I'm not talking to, as it relates from your content.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. The person you see is not the person you're talking to. For example, the person I see right now is Brian. And the people. The voice that people hear right now is Brian, but we don't know the person behind it. I don't know anything about what happened in your day. I don't know if you had. You're having a hard time with your family. I don't know if you're having a struggle with kids, with spouse, with finances, with that cousin, that brother, everybody. It's typically family things, money things that we all struggle with. The person taking your order probably isn't trying to be rude to you. They're fed up because they're tired. They're fed up because they should have gotten off their shift an hour ago, and you decide to take it personally. The person who's giving you that very raw reaction, what I got taught was, the issue is rarely the issue. Jefferson. That was it all the time. The issue is rarely the issue. And that turns out to be right. Usually if somebody is sending me a negative email or I'm getting a frustrated call, it's not something I have done. It is something that happened long before they ever talked to me. And so when you have the wherewithal, the awareness, be able to realize, instead of getting up and taking it personally, getting really mad and defensive when you have that mindset of thinking in your head, huh, I wonder where this is coming from. I wonder what would make them say that. I wonder why they're raising their voice right now. When you get really. I don't like to use that word too often, but when you get curious, when you slow down and use questions to your benefit, you're going to be one that the people are going to go to in moments of chaos.

[Brian Buffini]

So there's a context. And it sounds like an extension of grace, understanding, empathy. Now, you still have your position, right? Attorneys are always considered tough. And, you know, I had in house counsel for 25 years here at Buffening Company and it's kind of like no one wants to go see a dentist. No one wants to talk to an attorney. We used to have on his business card the peace of mind department, because what he represented to me was peace of mind. It allowed me to go do what I needed to do. I needed to be trusting of the audiences, trusting of people, and give up my heart for decades to this calling I had. But I needed to have the steel behind me. And he said, my job is to provide peace of mind. You said you have goals when it comes to conversations, is that something you just think about ahead of time? It's like, what am I trying to achieve? What's the outcome I'm hoping for?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, for everybody listening right now, if you want better conversations, period, whether it's at home, at work, with family and friends, when it comes to difficult conversations, I'm not talking about the, hey, how's your day? What's going on? Just casual. I'm talking about the hard conversations. If you do not set a goal, then the other person will set the goal for you. They will start to decide why you're talking to them, what you need and what it's really about, and they'll control that narrative. If you don't set a goal, it's like if I said, hey, Brian, come with me on this plane real quick. I need talk to you for whatever amount of Time and you say, okay, where are we going on this plane? I don't know. No telling where we're landing. I don't know. We're taking off on a plane. Who knows? I just got two tickets. You want to come? I don't know where we're going to come back to. Because you don't have a destination. Destination. Now what happens that creates a lot of anxiety for the other person. You typically will start to over explain. You'll say things like, I say all that. To say, long story short, you have a hard time landing a thought because you really didn't think about where it was going to go. Now, there's always exceptions, but yes, you generally want to go into that conversation with a goal already in mind.

[Brian Buffini]

It's so good. My kids are, when they listen to this, they'll be laughing because when I sit there, I mean, I'm a public speaker for 30 years, right? And I'm always, when I hear a presentation, even a pastor, I'm like, please land the plane. Like just, I want to know you're going somewhere, just please land the plane. And that happens in conversation too. Like, please land the plane. Like, yeah, you know, is there a point?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes.

[Brian Buffini]

Do you kind of lay out for somebody oftentimes what the goal is? Do you often set the expectations up front or what you're hoping to achieve?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, I build it into the open of the conversation. So a very, very simple framework that everybody can use. And this is what I mean, I call it a frame because it gives the conversation a beginning in a very clear, defined end. Let's. And this is how you do it. One, you tell somebody what you want to talk about. Two, you tell them how you want to feel after the conversation where the conversation is going, like the takeaway, what's the point? Like you're talking about. And three, you get their buy in into that frame. So let's put it together. Let's say you and I have to have a tough conversation. Brian. Let's say I stopped by, you and I have already set a time for this discussion. We sit down. I'd say I'd like to talk with you about some comments you made at last Thursday's meeting. And I want to walk away from that discussion with the understanding that's not going to happen again. That's ungood. Very clear. Beginning and end. Whatever you say something like, sounds good, can we do that? Is that all right? What happens? They naturally nod their head and then it's like an implicit contract. Now they understand. I've now given my word to discuss this, and they've told me what it's about, and I now know when it's over, when there's been this understanding, when they feel good about it, when we've discussed it could be, hey, Brian, I'd like to talk with you five minutes about the meeting with finance tomorrow. And I just want to make sure you and I are on the same page. Or I want to walk away feeling. I know, one, two, three. Does that work? You go, yeah. So when you build in the very beginning, the takeaway, it makes everything easier, especially when you do it at the front. People typically do it the reverse. They wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. And everybody is ready to either check out, or they're spazzing out or spiraling out.

[Brian Buffini]

And there's an elephant under the carpet that keeps getting bigger.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. And you're like, here comes the boom. Yeah. Because, you know, you've been in those conversations when somebody's going, hey, look. So, you know, there's just been. And there's just been a lot, as, you know, we've really been going through a lot in the market. And. And you're just waiting, you know, okay, when's this coming? Or they give you a. You're waiting for the solicit, and now they finally get to the point. Or they start talking and they give you a lot of compliments, and then they pause and you're waiting for the. But there, There's. When you wait to the end, bad things happen, get it out up front, and everything just seems to coast.

[Brian Buffini]

When you say, the feeling I want to have at the end of this.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Brian Buffini]

So let's say go back to your analogy. Right. This happened last Thursday. I want to get to the point that we know that that's not going to happen again. What's the feeling you're interjecting into that?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, when I say that to somebody, I'm trying to tell them, one, I'm the captain of the ship, you know, I'm going to control the conversation. So I've. I'm defining the terms. You're going to enter into this conversation with me. It's like an implicit contract. I've given you the terms, item Roman numeral 1 to 5. You're going to be in this thing with me, and we're going to do it together. A very simple way for anybody who's going, how could I do this? You just use the phrase, I want to walk away with. I want to walk away with. What you're saying is this conversation is for me. Why? Because I want to have this conversation. And so even if somebody is. Because I'm right there with you. When you listen to another speaker or a pastor and, and you're going, you're so close. You're so close. You just, just, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're so close. Just, just. You got it, you got it. You have, you have clearance. Go for it. I'm right there with you. I'm right there with you. Now, if somebody else in conversation is doing that, I might at the right time say, what do you want to walk away with with this conversation? Or what's, what's the takeaway for me? Anytime that you can make it personal to you rather than the other person, the take, rather than saying, can you get to the point? What's the point here? Takeaway, meaning something you want to draw from, something you want to leave with, something you want to walk away from, is much more direct.

[Brian Buffini]

Let me ask you this again. People bring themselves to the table. Some people want to get things resolved right away. Some people are big picture, long term. Some people are very pragmatic. And bottom line, some people are more. They're going to hear the context of what you say and not the content first. People often have unrealistic goals for their conversations. And you address this in the book. How do you address if you have a goal for the conversation? Someone else has a very unrealistic goal for the conversation.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, well, let's lay out what, what's realistic and unrealistic in a conversation. An unrealistic type of goal is one that says, well, they're just going to say that I'm right and they're wrong. Or they're going to immediately apologize and say, oh my gosh, I've been so wrong. How could I ever be so obtuse? And you, being the gracious friend that you are benevolent, is going to allow them into your graces again. That's not going to happen. Or changing somebody's mind.

[Brian Buffini]

Right. The scales have fallen off my eyes. You are so awesome.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. I see it all now. Yeah, that's never going to happen. Especially not in one conversation. We assume that if I have one conversation with you in the middle of whatever you're doing, but it's a good time for me. Who cares if it's bad time for you and I say it to you, well, then that's just the gospel truth and it's, and we're done. That's not the way it works. A realistic goal is saying, how can I make this person feel understood? How can I make this person feel acknowledged? How can I show appreciation for this chance to talk with them regardless of what they say? How can I agree that this is something worth talking about even if I don't agree with what they say? Or beginning with this is a conversation that's going to last as long as it takes. Like not in that time frame. Meaning this is a conversation that's going to last the next three weeks. This is a conversation we're going to continue to have this month. Like immediately relieves that pressure that we have to do exactly what they say right now. It takes a lot of time.

[Podcast Announcer]

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[Brian Buffini]

This dynamic that's really jumped out for me in the book? Because look, I made my living at kitchen tables, Jerry Maguire as a real estate agent, and then spent the last 30 years teaching and training people to do the same. And we talk about dialogues, not scripts, because dialogue requires listening, understanding, and so on, so forth. But when I saw in the book there's two phases of every argument and I thought I'd never heard it put this way. I'd love you to explain to our audience what you mean by that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, so any argument you ever have that you probably will have today, or you already had this morning before you left the door is there's a up and a down, right? There's an ignition phase and a cooling phase. Ignition phase begins with somebody said something that rubbed you the wrong way and then it added some friction and then you know what? Now you feel a bit heated and before you know it, somebody says something that's too far and you're ignited. It's the typical fight or flight where you're locked in. You don't care really. What? It gets so bad sometimes you really don't know what you're saying. Who cares? You don't care that it doesn't make sense. You ever been in an argument with someone and you're like, that doesn't even make sense. They don't care. It's the emotions responding to it. Right? Apological is gone.

[Brian Buffini]

I'm Irish, Italian buddies. Nitro and glycerin in the same body.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brian Buffini]

My ignition is there all the time. And I spend most of my time throwing cold water on that ignition.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Yeah. Down here we, we use tannerite. So that's definitely like, it's part of it. And so you, you, you escalate, you continue to escalate. They yell you, you yell louder. They say something, you say something back. Then eventually it gets to a point. And this is what I would just call you, crossing the line. Somebody crosses the line, either they say something that goes too far, like they, they, this is the person who wins, right? They, they said the thing that was too hurtful or sometimes it just dies out on its own. But typically it's because somebody said something that was too much and somebody decided to back down. That's typical. Then on the other side, it's the cooling phase. Cooling phase sounds very different from the ignition phase. It sounds like, hey, I. Sorry about that. I, you know, I don't know what came over me. And all of a sudden it's, well, and that's not what I meant. What I meant to say was, now it's clarity. Now it's, you're talking about intentions. Now your voice is lower. Now it's slower. Now you sound a little bit more regretful. So they sound very different. So the key is we're taking what works really well in that cooling phase, and I'm teaching you how to apply it and everyday conversation to where the ignition phase never really kicks off. And I can promise you it's extremely aggravating to the people who wish you would enter it with them. Like they, the people who really want.

[Brian Buffini]

The argument, they want you to go. One of the things we teach in the coaching side of things is this mirror back process, right? So what I'm hearing you say is, and you repeat and what we teach people, which is legit, like, it's not just technique, it's. It's an application of the heart. But you need technique, you know, good discipline to match up with the, with the desire. And it's like, okay, we always encourage people, take notes, hear what your customers have to say. All right? They're frustrated their house hasn't been sold. They feel like their neighbor sold for twice as much in half the time, which you Know is the great story the neighbor told. That's not real. And so great. So let me write it down. It's okay if I take notes while we're talking? Okay. So what I'm hearing you say, Jefferson, is. And you repeat back to the person what they said nine times out of 10, maybe 99 times out of 100. The person goes, well, no, let me. And they clarify what they said. That is what they said. But they don't like when the words are read back to them in a calm way. So what I'm hearing you say is, well, no, no, what I meant by that was this. Okay. And I take notes of that. So then here's what I'm hearing you say. And then I've had situations where a person had to, you know, they restated what they stated three times and we eventually, okay, great. Well, I definitely can work with that. I hear what you're saying. I definitely can work with that. And the cooling phase seems to get there quicker when I feed back to them appropriately, without emotion, what it is they said. In our coaching, we call that the mirror back process. And it seems to work pretty well.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And for good reason because it's making them feel heard, it's making them feel acknowledged. They don't feel like they have to line up all of their defenses and ready their force. Oh, there's no. If I ever talk to somebody, I say, look, I'm going to tell you something and you are free to disagree with me. Or I say, listen, you don't need to agree with me. If they have like a retort, they have a response, they go, I don't really like it. And I go, it's okay, you can disagree with me. I mean, it's like they go, wait a minute, I did all this work for me to argue with you and now I don't have to. It makes them. It makes it all calm down a whole lot faster.

[Brian Buffini]

And Jefferson, as we were talking before the show, you know, we are this coaching entity and one of the things we want to do is teach people how to communicate better. And one of the things we've started offering, and this has just been huge, has been a free business consultation with one of our expert coaches. And so we package it as it's the best 30 minutes someone's going to have in their business this year. So no strings attached, just somebody goes to itsagoodlife.com BC and will help somebody get clear on their vision, uncover what's holding them back, see what's working for others and what Somebody's next steps are. And so if somebody listening today and you're interested in this, go to it's a goodlife.com BC and you'll have the next conversation with one of our experts. And hopefully our coaches will be listening to Jefferson so they know exactly how to communicate with you the way you need to be communicated with. In your book, you talk about assertiveness and confidence, and I think coming from somebody like you, it stands out even stronger. It has more pop. Talk to me about assertiveness and confidence and how it is you apply that in these difficult conversations.

[Jefferson Fisher]

People often think that confidence is something you have to have before you do it. Before they'll say, I'm really working up the confidence to ask for this, to ask for a raise, to talk to them about this, to discuss this. That's wrong. Confidence is not something you have before. Confidence is the outcome. It's the consequence. It's the reward you get for doing the assertive thing. People don't just naturally. It's not instinctive. It's not natural to just walk into a place you've never been before. Confident. You feel confident. Why? Because you've been there before. You've heard it. You know which way to go. You're not the new kid at school. You know where all your classes are. Now you. You feel very comfortable. So how do you do that every day? Understand that confidence is as assertive does. So when you use words and phrases.

[Brian Buffini]

Say that again. That's some liquid gold. We need to go back to that again. Can you say that again?

[Jefferson Fisher]

So confidence is as assertive does. So when you choose to say the assertive thing, which respects both people, you know, aggression respects nobody. Being extremely passive doesn't respect yourself. Assertive can respect both. I respect you and I respect myself. I can be upset with you and still connect with you. I can disagree with you and still be kind about it. There is a vocabulary that I teach on using your assertive voice. When you find it and when you follow it, the outcome of it is confidence. It's like the first time you've. You know, there's probably the first time that anybody told the waiter their order was wrong. There's some people who still don't do that.

[Brian Buffini]

Yep.

[Jefferson Fisher]

They say, I'm sorry, but my. My, my order is that they actually should have brought me this. And then they go, oh, I'm so sorry, and they bring it back. It's. It's a feeling of, oh, okay. Well, I just. Now I just told them on the reservation that Actually, no, this, this product isn't good, or it's my first time I asked somebody to, you know, move over a seat. Anything that you begin to, you do it, it slowly builds that, that confidence after you do it.

[Brian Buffini]

You know, the reason I became a personal growth and development junkie is I was unskilled, untrained and unmentored. You know, I came to America as a 19 year old and got in a very serious motorcycle accident. And I was here and I had to learn a new culture, a new way, a new way of talking and living and surviving on my own. And so I became that guy who became a hungry guy to grow and to learn and be the best I could be. And I was. You know, we are very much a culture in Ireland where hospitality and rebellion lies in the same soul. So in order to get assertive, I had to get ticked off. I would have these strong emotions. I would constantly be downshifting to reserve myself. When I became assertive, I had to get ticked off to do it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brian Buffini]

And over time I realized, well, and the more successful I became, you know, I have hundreds of employees, I have a big family. Getting ticked off. To be assertive is a one way ticket to nowhere. So you know what I mean, it just, oh, now I'm assertive. And again alone, now I'm assertive. And it's, you're radioactive. So I've had to learn a lot of these skills. I mean, I'm reading your book and I'm wish I could have read a book, you know what I mean? Like, like this came to me the hard way. How can somebody be assertive? Because it's really about valuing yourself. You have something to say. How do you get to that point? What's the right mindset to have to become more assertive?

[Jefferson Fisher]

We can talk mindset first. Mindset is instead of giving people remote controls, you give them manuals. So instead of giving someone a remote control and they yell, you yell louder. They say something and press your button, you say, that's not true. They things that they know that they can press that button and they're going to get a response. And believe me, the closer they are to you, the more they know exactly what button to press. A manual mindset is very different. A manual mindset, if somebody is saying something ugly to you instead of going, me, what about you? Which is remote control manual says, yeah, if you go to page 78, line 2, subsection B, yeah, you'll see I don't respond to that volume. I don't Respond to that tone. I don't allow people to disrespect me. You're using I phrases which are very easy to do. But more importantly, you are telling people not don't speak to me that way, which is saying, you can't do that. What you're saying is, I don't do this. So when you're able to apply that in an assertive way, like real quickly, it could be, I don't respond to that tone. If you continue to talk to me in that tone, this is the end of the conversation. This is the them's the breaks. Like, this is my instruction and it's.

[Brian Buffini]

Still in a collaborative setting. Like I don't respond well to. That means this conversation's going nowhere.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[Brian Buffini]

Right. We keep this up like we're heading nowhere.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Brian Buffini]

It's not like you're getting under my skin or whatever. Like I just don't respond well to that. Yeah, that's a fantastic phrase.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Thank you. It's like you're laying out the instructions of if you want to communicate with me, this is how we're going to do it. If you're not willing to abide by those rules, then there's no conversation. I'm not going to take it personal. This is just the layout here. And that allows you to have more of a boundary mindset, allows you to have more of an assertive mindset. Now, we could talk practically about how to stop over apologizing, how to eliminate a lot of the hesitancy in your words, ways to be a little bit more forward and leaning into it. Assertiveness is something that once you find it and everybody knows what it feels like, they just wish they could get it all the time. And you only get it by the reps. That's it. Confidence is built by the reps. Well, let's switch gears.

[Brian Buffini]

This will be the last technical question I ask you. What about defensiveness? You talk about it in your book and the conversation can just become completely defensive and you just get nowhere. I found myself having conversations with where I'm trying not to have someone become defensive. They become defensive and then now it's, oh, my gosh, how do I get off this treadmill here? How can we identify it in ourselves and eliminate it?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, let's take it two steps. So let's say you're talking to this other person about something, they start getting defensive. How can you quickly try to put it into it? Some thoughts come to mind. One is you tell them what you agree with. That does not mean you have to agree with what they're saying. It's. I agree. This is worth talking about. I agree. That's. That's a point. I agree that this is something we should continue to discuss. Them just hearing the word agree, they're going to naturally kind of become Hulk, the Bruce Banner. They're going, oh, okay, like, oh, he said. He said he agrees. Or you tell him what's been helpful, that's been helpful to know. I appreciate you sharing that with me. Or you tell somebody what they've. What you've learned. You know, Brian, after hearing you, what I've learned is X, Y, and Z. People love to feel like they've invested in their own mutual understanding. Well, that's one way to get that. If you're noticing in yourself, and we all know it, we feel it rising up in that tension. The number one thing you can do, because it's really your emotional regulation at that point is your breath. What you need to do and what I teach is let your breath be the first word that you say. So wherever your first word would be, put a breath in its place. And I promise you, what you say after that breath will probably not have been the same thing you have said had you not taken one second of all. It allows the other person to also regulate themselves. The longer the pause, the more regulation in any time. Very different from you asking me a question. And if I gave it five seconds, you're naturally going to assume that I thought about it a lot more than just five seconds. You're going to hear something else, be more intentional. You're going to hear it be a lot more thought out. So what's the takeaway when somebody asks you a question, if it's a client, whatever it is, take some time before you respond. Don't show them the rapid answer. This is not a quiz. You're not showing them how smart you are. If you want to sound intelligent, you add about three to five seconds before you respond because it makes it feel more grounded. It makes them feel like, oh, no, this is a lot more solid, a lot more final. This person knows what they're talking about. So that kind of stuff always will help you not get nearly as defensive. Another little trick, if you don't mind, Brian. This is. I always like talking about this one. If you want to keep somebody from getting defensive, try reversing what the intro. This is what I mean. Instead of when you say, hey, look, I don't mean any disrespect, but. And then you go, they don't all they hear is what?

[Brian Buffini]

Disrespect.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Disrespect. That's it. Because they don't want to do what you tell them to do, so you have to do the opposite. So instead of, hey, no disrespect, or I don't mean to sound rude, that's guaranteed they will. That's exactly how they're going to hear it. But if you say you're probably going to think this is disrespectful or you probably think this is going to sound rude, they're going to go, nuh. Like, we just have this natural way of going, no, it won't. No, it won't. We just have this.

[Brian Buffini]

You are a Texan.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, we just have this way of being super contradictory. I mean, you know those people who you go, hey, I feel like you're really upset. And they go, no, I'm not upset. I'm just. I'm frustrated. They always have this way of. They want to contradict you, be a contrarian, no matter. No matter what. So use it when you can.

[Brian Buffini]

When we coach people from Texas, we always have to coach them in such a way that it's their idea. I know that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's exactly right. That is the truth.

[Brian Buffini]

Listen, I interviewed tons of people. I'm a teacher trainer by heart. Like, we have training programs and coaching programs, and that's what we've been doing for decades. And when I come in contact with somebody who has been a practitioner, this seems to have come in, you know, sitting on your daddy's knee, you have so much richness and nuance and understanding. That is so helpful and so practical. And so I just want to let everybody know, the book is called the Next Conversation. Argue Less, Talk More. And you got a little sense of it here today. All the endorsements are friends of mine. That should be a good giveaway right there. Absolutely fantastic. And I can't endorse it enough. I just think anybody who's talking to a customer in the world we live in today needs to become highly skilled in communication. And everything is predisposed to be polarizing conversation nowadays. And so when you are armed with the ability to build consensus and connection and communicate as a master, that's what you want to do. As I finish up here today, Jefferson, I have five questions I've asked everybody who's ever been on the show, and if you're okay with it, I just want to throw them at you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, yeah.

[Brian Buffini]

And we'll finish up here in grand old style. So number one, what's the Single best piece of advice you've ever been given.

[Jefferson Fisher]

My grandfather told me once, he says, son, you can't look back and hoe a straight row.

[Brian Buffini]

Wow.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You can't. For anybody who's a gardener ever done any kind of planting. You can't till up the ground in front of you by looking behind it. You're not going to do a straight line. It's trying to steer the boat by.

[Brian Buffini]

Looking at the wake, driving the car by looking in the rearview mirror. And we have a lot of that for sure. What's the one gift or talent you wish you possessed that you currently don't?

[Jefferson Fisher]

The ability to text in a moving vehicle. That would be great. I can't without getting horribly motion sickness. I cannot do it.

[Brian Buffini]

Well, good.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So they know if I get an Uber or a car is like, oh, you're not going to hear from me. Okay. Because it can't happen.

[Brian Buffini]

A bunch of people screaming right now. Voice text.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Okay.

[Brian Buffini]

That's great. All right. What would you say was the most instrumental book in your life?

[Jefferson Fisher]

You know, I. Aside from, of course, any Christian books. I would go with Team of Rivals.

[Brian Buffini]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's a. I could. I could nerd out with you on that book. I love so much of. For anybody wondering that that book describes the Republican nomination for Abraham Lincoln being the candidate and then bringing all of his. The people who ran against him into his cabinet. Just an awesome story.

[Brian Buffini]

Yeah. Which is over your left shoulder as we're talking. The giant picture of Abe Lincoln there.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah.

[Brian Buffini]

And Eisenhower Lincoln guy. Eisenhower was the same guy. If you read any stuff on Eisenhower, you'll see he was the same guy. The guy that was his biggest rival in de Gaulle who actually went on radio telling the French to resist the liberation of France when they rolled through Paris. Ike put de Gaulle at the head of the parade, liberating France from the. From the Germans. So he lived out team of rivals. So I can see how you'd like that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So cool.

[Brian Buffini]

You're scrolling through the channels. I know you're a big guy with a family now, but what's the one movie always stop on and you. What you've watched over and over again? What's that one that always does it for you?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Probably anything. Lord of the Rings that I like. It's immediate. Glued to it. I don't care how many times I've seen.

[Brian Buffini]

Well, you're. The good news is they play them, it seems like every night of the week.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It really. It's the best. It's the best I know in any hotel I'm at. I'm probably like, oh, the two towers. I don't mind if I do.

[Brian Buffini]

Yeah, that's great, Jefferson. As we finish up here, what does a good life look like for Jefferson Fisher?

[Jefferson Fisher]

A good life is the mornings where I wake up and I just. All I see is my son and my daughter's little bedhead right in my face with their hair and just smelling them and hearing their voice. And my family. All right there. That's the good stuff.

[Brian Buffini]

Well, you've got it figured out, young man. You have got it figured out. It took me a few years to get to that place, but when it comes to my family, I always knew faith, family and the work supports that. And, you know, that's the good stuff. My kids are grown and have families of their own now. And now I will tell you, the grandkids is where it's at. So can't get enough of that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's awesome.

[Brian Buffini]

I want to share this. What I heard about you initially was not just how skilled you were. I saw the videos. I knew you were excellent at what you did. But behind the scenes, you know, when people like myself, I've booked probably 500 speakers over the last 30 years to different events, and everyone who's had you as their guest has always said the same thing, that he was every bit as good backstage as he was on. He always gave more than he was asked for. He's always given up himself to the audience and went the extra mile with every audience he sees. And I've heard that from half a dozen people. You know, that's the stuff. That's the seeds that get sown into people lives like you that they owe. Gray beards like myself have been around a long time. You're the people we want to promote. You're the people we want to advance. And I'd like all of my clients to get a copy of the next conversation.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Good.

[Brian Buffini]

Argue less, talk more. Jefferson Fisher, it's been an absolute treat to meet you. Thanks for being with us today. And as we finish up, I'm going to finish up with the words of the Irish blessing that for the first nine years of this podcast my mother gave, she's in heaven now critiquing me that I don't do it nearly as well as her. So may the Rhodes rise up to meet you. May the wind always be at your back. May the rain fall soft upon your fields and the sunshine warm upon your face. And until we see you again, may God hold you all in the hollow of his hand. We'll see you next time, Sa.