All the President’s Morons

Summary

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Podcast Summary: I’ve Had It

Episode: “All the President’s Morons”

Hosts: Jennifer Welch & Angie “Pumps” Sullivan
Guest: Katie Couric
Release Date: Dec 16, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and candid episode, hosts Jennifer Welch and Angie “Pumps” Sullivan are joined by veteran journalist Katie Couric in New York City. Together, they explore the evolving landscape of journalism, the corrosive impact of political polarization, their personal journeys from conservative roots to more progressive views, and the power of friendship and second acts. The episode balances poignant reflections with irreverent humor, memorable personal stories, and a signature rapid-fire round of “Had it or Hit it.” The tone is forthright, witty, and deeply personal, offering both laughter and insight for listeners navigating today’s chaotic America.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Katie Couric Reflects on the State of Journalism

• Attacks on Journalists:
  Couric laments the increasing hostility towards journalists, especially under the Trump administrations:

  “I’ve had it with journalists being trashed and demeaned… I’ve had it with that.” — Katie Couric [02:44]

• Corporate Pressures & Chilling Effect:
  The group discusses how corporate ownership and interests undermine press independence. Katie notes:

  “Now it is just really... creepy that these corporations, over a specious lawsuit… [are] giving $16 million to the Trump Library because they wanted to grease the wheels of this merger between Paramount and Skydance. It’s just unconscionable.” — Katie Couric [07:07]

• The Decline from “All the President’s Men” Era:
  They observe how Watergate era journalism inspired generations and how current times feel “almost quaint” by comparison:

  “Now, [Nixon’s] crimes almost seem… quaint, comparatively speaking.” — Jennifer Welch [05:15]

• Celebrating Good Work Despite Negativity:
  Katie insists that despite the challenges, extraordinary investigative work is happening and must be uplifted (mentions Nancy Youssef, Nicole Foy, Susan Glasser) [06:25].

Notable Quote

“You do wish they would all stand together and say, you can’t call that person that name.” — Katie Couric [04:17]

2. Polarization & Media “Sane-Washing”

• Media Operating in Parallel Realities:
  The group discusses the difficulty of discerning truth when right-wing media prioritizes what the left is saying and mocks them, rather than reporting real events.

  “People are operating from a different set of facts, a different kind of channel of information.” — Katie Couric [10:39]

• Sane-Washing Coverage:
  Jennifer calls out how even mainstream media often “sane-washes” Trump’s erratic behavior, driven by ratings and fear of losing corporate favor.

  “There’s this inherent sort of respect for the office… and you don’t want to rock the boat.” — Katie Couric [21:43]

• Personalization of News:
  The conversation explores how audiences now want to know about news anchors’ lives, seeking parasocial relationships due to societal disconnection.

  “In a time of less intimacy… we are seeking this interaction in our phone via parasocial relationships.” — Jennifer Welch [24:42]

Notable Quote

“For as long as I’ve been in this business, there’s been this desire to be fair… I think that kind of impetus makes people sometimes resistant to call a spade a spade, if you will.” — Katie Couric [21:43]

3. Oversharing, Parasociality, and Personal Growth

• Jennifer & Angie’s Origin Story:
  The friends recount their first meeting in Oklahoma City, complete with “gray pubic hair” story and “interior design trauma.”

  “I was a bad decorator... all I could think was ‘I hate her. I hate everything about her. I hate that she looks great’” — Angie [33:10]

• Evolution of Friendship:
  Their bond deepened during early motherhood, serving as each other's lifeline during the isolating “kid jail” years, despite starting with vastly different religious and political views.
• Political Transformation:
  Angie details her upbringing in evangelical, conservative Oklahoma and her gradual move leftward after personal crises shattered the myth that “bad things don’t happen to people like us” [46:29].
• Jennifer's Atheism:
  Jennifer describes her upbringing as an open atheist in the Bible Belt, facing social pressures and recruitment from evangelicals, and how this shaped her outspoken identity [42:00].

Memorable Moment

“You were the most religious Republican friend I had and I was the only atheist democratic friend you had ever had.” — Jennifer [38:44]

4. Family, Community, and Identity

• Protecting Privacy in the Public Eye:
  Couric reflects on handling her husband’s death and her approach to privacy—once more guarded compared to today’s culture of constant sharing [28:20].

  “I tried to be careful and control what I did share… It was Jay’s life and Jay’s death, and I didn’t feel… I needed to protect his privacy.” — Katie Couric [28:20]

• Intergenerational Political Change:
  Angie shares how her parents remain die-hard Fox News viewers, while she and her friends have moved leftward—and how families avoid confrontation by “just pretending it isn’t there.” [54:59]

5. Gender, Reinvention, and Platform Building

• Midlife ‘Second Acts’:
  Jennifer and Angie express gratitude for reinventing themselves and finding a huge audience in midlife—especially as women from Oklahoma:

  “Men do that stuff all the time... For us to do it, and to be in the conversation—it's never lost on us.” — Jennifer [56:12]

• Building Community in Isolating Times:
  They affirm the importance of using their platform for marginalized groups, particularly women, trans people, and those isolated in red states [81:16].

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Had It or Hit It (Game Segment) [63:02–73:28]

A lightning round where the hosts and Katie Couric declare if they've “had it” (enough!) or would “hit it” (embrace/enjoy) various people, things, and trends.
Highlights:

• Extremely Dry Skin:
  – “Had it. I’ve woken myself up the last two nights scratching my skin.” — Katie [63:19]
• Train Etiquette:
  – All “Had it”
• Pete Hegseth:
  – All “Had it” (“He was never qualified… there’s just something so cowboy about the whole thing.” — Katie [67:30])
• AI:
  – Mixed; Katie is cautiously in the middle but warns of major risks and need for public/government vigilance. “I worry that government isn’t stepping in enough… people aren’t appreciating how transformative it will be.” — Katie [70:21]
• The United States of America:
  – Emphatic “Hit it!” from Katie:

  “I will never give up on the kind of country I think secretly everybody wants.” — Katie [73:35] “I still believe most people are inherently good… I just wish we could somehow find some more common ground.” — Katie [74:44]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Standing Up to Corporate Pressure:
  “We would pretty much bitch slap the executive who was doing it.” — Katie Couric [07:07]
• On Media Fragmentation:
  “Mass media has become an oxymoron. It's all about niche media now.” — Katie Couric [83:00]
• On Parasocial Relationships:
  “I'm a nosy person… I get it. I want to know because you form these relationships with the people.” — Jennifer [26:17]
• On Leaving Religion:
  “The more I went to church, the more it affirmed my secularism.” — Jennifer [42:00]
• On Gender and Privilege:
  “If you don't have to think about rights for you or anybody else, you live in a privileged bubble.” — Angie [48:33]
• On Not Giving Up on America:
  “The minute you give up… that's why I don't want anyone to own the flag. It's everybody's flag.” — Katie Couric [73:35]
• On New Media and Second Acts:
  “We are always so grateful… be in the conversation. It's never lost on us… what a wild experience it is to be two women from Oklahoma City that took a risk.” — Jennifer [56:12]
• On Building Inclusive Communities:
  “We are here to fight for you, because we believe in equality for everybody… for the triple Trumpers in red states, we believe in it for you too. I'm sorry. Tough titties.” — Jennifer [81:16]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:08] – Show open & meeting Katie Couric
• [02:44] – Katie Couric: “What have I had it with?” Journalists under attack
• [04:36] – The erosion of solidarity in the press
• [06:25] – Celebrating investigative journalism despite the odds
• [10:07] – Rise of “post-fact” media and media corporate capture
• [21:43] – “Sane-washing” Trump & the risk of soft coverage
• [24:42] – Personalization and parasociality in the news
• [31:21] – Jennifer & Angie’s “meet-cute” story; motherhood as bonding
• [38:44] – Contrasting upbringings: atheist and evangelical journeys
• [46:29] – Angie’s religious/political deconstruction
• [53:42] – Social circles, family, and shifting political alliances
• [56:01] – Midlife career reinvention and gratitude
• [63:02] – “Had it or Hit it” game with Katie
• [73:35] – Not giving up on the USA & the importance of hope
• [81:16] – Commitment to fighting for inclusion and pro-human rights
• [83:00] – Katie shares where to find her work (Substack, newsletters, podcast)
• [86:15] – Final affirmations; gratitude for “fresh voices”

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a lively, revealing, and often hilarious conversation that blends critique of American politics and media with deep dives into personal transformation, identity, and the enduring value of friendship. Katie Couric’s presence brings both gravity and warmth, showing her evolution from corporate anchor to outspoken independent journalist. Jennifer and Angie provide both irreverent fun and honest vulnerability, modeling what it means to “have it” – and to move forward anyway.

For listeners seeking insight on journalism, political factionalism, midlife reinvention, and the magic of unlikely friendships, this episode is essential, relatable, and inspiring.

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Transcript

[A]

So are we supposed to start the podcast?

[B]

Ready, 1, 2, 3.

[A]

Patriots, gay trots, they Trio, Black Triots and Brown Trio. And the people that are mean to all of those great people can do what pumps off. That is our patriotic eagle call. We're here in New York City with our brand new bff, Katie Couric.

[B]

We're cool.

[A]

She's cool. We're all in New York together. And welcome to I've had it podcast, Katie Couric.

[C]

Thank you. So proud of what you built here and what you're doing and using your voices and talking about important things and raising a little Hell, yeah. And I think my daughter Ellie said, if you watch these two ladies, they go off. And I said, I've seen them. And I approve this message.

[A]

I love that. I love that. You know, so many. We have a big age gap in our listenership, slash viewership. And so people that are Gen Xers and above will have spent. I've spent so much time with you, Katie Couric. I mean, we have spent mornings together. I used to draw a bubble bath and I had one of those TVs, you know, that was kind of thicker. And I would watch the morning, you know, watch you in the morning.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Shaving my legs. I was going to say together.

[C]

Bubble baths in the morning.

[B]

She's a morning bather.

[C]

That's so interesting, isn't it? Right? I like a soft morning bather.

[A]

I like a soft landing to my morning.

[C]

Well, I like it. I've never taken a bath in the morning.

[A]

I recommend it.

[C]

Okay, I'm gonna have to try it. Life short and bubble bath, no less.

[A]

Yeah, why not? Throw in the bubbles so you feel.

[C]

Like you know me very intimately.

[A]

Very intimately.

[C]

Because you were shaving your legs and watching me and we were having kind of a Vulcan mind melt, so I appreciate that.

[B]

I remember, like, when my kids were little and you're stuck at home in kid jail, like, little bitty kid. I just felt like, oh, Katie was my girlfriend. We were hanging out, and you would always be so happy.

[A]

You're just not beating those lesbian allegations, are you?

[B]

I know everyone says I'm a lesbian because I do all the lesbian things, but I'm not. If I want to be a lesbian, I would prefer to be a lesbian. I think lesbians are probably better at everything.

[C]

So many of my friends wish they could be lesbians.

[B]

It's so true.

[C]

The way I really would like to be a lesbian is I would like someone with long nails to scratch my back every night.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Oh, my God. And my husband, he just. You just can't scratch my back.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's not the same.

[A]

You just can't take it over the finish.

[C]

So, yeah, I don't know about you all, but that's my idea of nirvana having my back scratched.

[B]

It's the little thing.

[A]

All right, Katie Couric, what have you had it with?

[C]

Oh, God, what have I had it with? I've had it with so much, I don't know where to begin. I've had it with journalists being trashed and demeaned and insulted. I've had it with that. Or kicked out of places they deserve to be and should be. Like the Pentagon. I've had it with that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's so offensive.

[C]

Do you want other things I've had it with? Do I do this in rapid succession?

[A]

Let's talk about that one first, and then we'll go to your next one, because I think this is a really important one. And it started during Trump 1.0. I remember him constantly fake news.

[C]

Remember Jim Acosta basically having the microphone pulled out of his hand by a minion at the White House.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But it's gotten much, much worse.

[A]

Oh, it's so much worse now. And now the disparaging names that he's calling journalists, you know, sexist, insulting, particularly journalists of color. He seems to go even more fierce towards Quiet Piggy.

[C]

Yeah, like what? And a friend of mine was saying, why doesn't the entire press corps revolt when he treats a journalist that way? The problem is, if they did, what happened at the Pentagon would happen at the White House. They would lose access. These people would probably lose their jobs because they're now overseen by huge corporations who want some quid pro quo action from the Trump administration that are giving millions of dollars to the Trump library and other things to curry favor or financing the. The new ballroom, the East Wing ballroom or whatever. So it's a very precarious position they find themselves in. But you do wish that they would all stand together and say, you can't call that person that name.

[B]

That's not okay.

[A]

My husband and I. You know how sometimes people play ambient music? My husband, we play ambient music, but sometimes he likes to turn on an ambient film that we've all seen multiple times, and it's just kind of playing, and you can kind of check into it and then go to your phone or go make a sandwich. And he's had on all the President's Men the last month or so, and, you know, it's just such a It really wasn't that long ago. It seems like a long time ago, but historically, that's not that long. Long ago where you had these journalists, young, tenacious, scrappy, gritty, chasing down this story and a person that owned the newspaper that believe that wasn't beholden to corporations.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That wanted the truth and how far we've fallen. And it almost makes what's going on now, almost makes Nixon's crimes, which were terrible for the office of the President. Now they almost seem somewhat quaint, comparatively speaking.

[C]

You're right. And think of what that movie did, which is usher in a whole generation of people who saw journalism as a really noble calling. But, you know, for as much as we can sort of wring our hands about what's happening, the way journalists are being treated, I would say that there is some incredible, extraordinary journalism being done right now at this very moment. And we have to not forget about that, celebrate it, lift those voices up and make sure that they're valued and appreciated. I do a lot of interviews with fellow journalists on my Substack show and on social media in general. And I interviewed a journalist for the Atlantic named Nancy Youssef who is covering the Pentagon. Brilliant. I interviewed an incredible ProPublica reporter.

[A]

Great work.

[C]

Named Nicole. What's Nicole's last name? Foy. Nicole Foy, who is keeping track of the U.S. citizens who have been arrested and detained by ICE agents, which is at 170. And she says that's a very conservative estimate. And, you know, I talked to. I'm talking to Susan Glasser tomorrow from the New Yorker, who's excellent. So I think we can point to extraordinary work that's being done. I think what we're seeing is corporate interference. And you wonder if that's resulting in a lot of anticipatory obedience, if you will, or if it's having a chilling effect on how this White House is being covered. And I've written about this. It's such a conflict of interest. You know, when I worked at NBC and it was owned by General Electric, there was a very clear line between corporate interests and what we were doing journalistically. And if that ever, you know, that line ever got crossed, you'd pretty much bitch slap the executive who was doing it. And now it is just really. It's really creepy that these corporations, over a specious lawsuit, the Kamala Harris editing there was absolutely zero wrong with that. It was ridiculous, and they would have won in court, but instead, giving $16 million to the Trump Library because they wanted to grease the wheels of this merger between Paramount and Skydance, it's just unconscionable and it's really, really bad. But I just wanna make sure we recognize the extraordina and the extraordinary journalists who are out there doing the work every single day.

[B]

There are some. I subscribe to the Atlantic and I read all that stuff. I mean, who are we talking about? A female founded that. The Atlantic, right. And funds that.

[A]

Oh, it's.

[C]

No, it's. Laureen Powell Jobs is now sort of the benefactor of the Atlantic. The Atlantic is, I think, was started in the late 1800s, so it's been around forever. But she is financially supporting it. And they're incredibly talented people over there doing things.

[A]

Great work as a journalist. You know, when you see Pillars shows that were always really good journalism, storytellers, truth tellers like 60 Minutes, and you see that, you know, this Larry Ellison who seems to be overtly Trumpy, and then he's appointed somebody, which I think is one of the worst symptoms of Trumpism, is you people are getting appointed to jobs for which they are not qualified. And you have Barry Weiss who just checks some boxes of support and. Or the ability to want to propagandize a certain narrative. And then she gets in charge of a whole organization not based on merit, but based on agenda. And when I. I see this happening over and over, it's so hard. You know, you can think, oh, am I just going to descend into nihilism and just, you know, look at cats on my Instagram all day? Because what does it matter? And I think it's really important what you just said about acknowledging the journalist who are doing the work still. And I do feel so much empathy for so many journalists that are kind of at the peak of their career now during this time that are having to navigate this landscape of, you know, this post fact media world.

[C]

Right.

[A]

It's so surreal. Sometimes when I think about when I watch the news and I see some of the people that the regressive conversations that have to take place because you're arguing over a fact.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And back when you were anchoring and then, you know, on the Today show, you didn't have to argue facts. You could start with a fact and then analyze and opine from there. But this arguing over facts, how for you, being inside the Death Star at one point and now looking at it from a different vantage point, is that surreal for you to see that?

[C]

It is. It is surreal and it's really disconcerting. And I think it's. It's one of the reasons I do think it's feeding the division and the polarization we're all witnessing. You know, people are operating from a different set of facts, a different kind of channel of information. And, you know, I was talking to Nancy Youssef about this press conference that they had at the Pentagon and Laura Loomer was there and Matt Gaetz and meanwhile, all the other, you know, formally credentialed Pentagon correspondents were not permitted to go. So you get a line of questions and a narrative that is disseminated by this one particular group that is really more or less a propaganda arm of the Pentagon. And then you have this other group that is operating in, quite frankly, reality and critical, you know, critiquing what's happening or trying to ascertain the truth and what allegedly is. Such a transparent administration, they can't even find out, like what's going on on these boats, who's on these boats, what evidence do they have? What is intelligence showing? What does it have to do with Ousteen Maduro? You know, and Nancy and I covered the Pentagon for a short period of time, I think just over a year before I was moved to the Today show. And you know, there were very specific, kind of, very specific sort of chain of command and how you got information and how things were vetted and how things operated in the Pentagon, which has really gone by the wayside now. So it's a really challenging environment. But then, you know, you've got some people watching one thing, some people watching another thing. And it's very difficult to discern for I think the average news consumer, what is truth and what isn't. And the people who are saying one thing on this side are criticizing the people on the other side. I think that happens on the right towards the left more than the left towards the right, because I think the left, for the most part, more progressive outlets are really. And maybe they go overboard sometime. I mean, people can quibble with the way they're reporting, but I think they are trying to adhere to what happened, the facts and what it means. And I don't know about you, but when you watch right wing media, a lot of it is focused on what the left is saying and mocking them or trashing them. It's only the left kind of right. Instead of sort of saying their version of events, which is usually very laudatory towards the administration. Right, right.

[A]

No, it very much is like we sometimes Fox News gets rather upset with us and they will cover us for a day. And when two podcasters from Oklahoma are the lead story on multiple shows on Fox News that tells you their ethos is owning the libs. We are not newsworthy. We're great. I mean, trust me.

[B]

I mean I get fabulous.

[A]

We are not the top of the news cycle on a major news cycle.

[C]

But it's clearly, it's clearly saying to their audience that they believe you have influence. Right?

[A]

Right.

[C]

They wouldn't pay attention to you if they didn't think people weren't listening to you and processing your perspective and the information you're providing. So in a perverse way, it's a compliment, right?

[A]

No, I take it as complimentary because anytime anybody even writes a hate comment or goes to give us a one star review or Fox News and Jesse Waters and Greg Gutf want to spend time talking about me, I simply don't. If I don't like something, I simply don't go to that place or talk to that person or listen to that show anymore. I simply pick up the remote and change the channel. So the nurturing that they take for their dislike is something that, that they put so much time into it and it's something that I couldn't be bothered with.

[C]

But think about the airtime that it's taking away from a discussion of the real issues.

[A]

That's exactly right.

[B]

What it is.

[C]

Right. Like think about how they could be illuminating something that happened. They could be helping viewers understand what's going on in Venezuela. Right. Or all these other complicated stories, citizens getting detained. Right. I mean they could and perhaps they, and they do. But they could spend more time supporting or having people positively commentate on what's happening and help people understand if they believe it's right and just why that's so. But instead the time they spend tearing people down with whom they disagree, it just doesn't seem like a very use. I mean, time is such a precious commodity on these shows and to waste it just trashing what other people are saying. But that seems to be the M.O. for a lot of these broadcasters and so called journalists.

[A]

And even more nefarious to that is when you know that a lot of our adversaries, our country's adversaries, want that type of social friction within the American public and that the current sitting president campaigned on eliminating the enemy from within and not a message of unification that, you know, that trickles down. And then you have these propaganda arms that instead of focusing on ways that we can advance and progress as a country, they're attacking other Americans.

[C]

Find common ground. Right, Right. And yeah, it's really got, this is.

[A]

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[B]

I was wondering like when you sit down and watch the news, if you even do that anymore, you have a critical eye. Like I used to wait tables. So I'm very, I notice service by other servers, you know, like, oh, they did that really fast or they did it really well or they did it shitty or whatever in my head. So just as a matter of just opinion of you, as a journalist who ran CBS News, who did the Today show, you see a situation where Donald Trump, let's say, falls asleep in a cabinet meeting and, or, you know, gives his microphone a blowjob. I know you wouldn't say blowjob on national, you know, back on the Today show or CBS News, but describing his behavior, it seems like it's sanewashed. It seems like you pick up a clip even with main, like a cbs, abc. You know, Trump talked about economics today. Well, what he did was he insulted people. He made zero sense about how he was going to take care of childcare and said so and so was the devil. You know, it's like, does that come from corporate? How does that, why does that exist? The sane washing of stuff?

[C]

Yeah, I think, I think part of it is corporate pressure. Part of it is ratings. You know, I think one of the reasons, I think sometimes, like I don't think there's a huge amount of political coverage on morning shows. You know, we used to do political coverage all the time. And I think there's an inherent sort of respect for the office that is kind of baked in and has been for decades. But I think it's this sort of corporate, you don't want to rock the boat because you could be hurt. You know, your business could be affected by, you know, the ftc, Right. Or the FCC rather. And, you know, all these different arms of the government that could bring a lot of pressure to bear, whether it's firing Jimmy Kimmel, Stephen Colbert, although they say that was a financial decision, I'm not sure that's totally true. So I think people are kind of walking on eggshells. And I also think for as long as I've been in this business, there's been this desire to be fair and to kind of say what's going on on both sides. Right. And so I think that kind of impetus makes people sometimes resistant to call a spade a spade, if you will, or to say, this isn't right. And these are, you know, and then they have to think of the audience and, you know, are they making. Are they making moral judgments on what is happening? Are they there just to tell the news and the facts? So it's complicated, I think. And that's why I think you're seeing in some cases, people not calling out certain behaviors and maybe just showing them and letting people decide what they think. Because, you know, it's just gotten very mixed up with commentating and strict news. You know, when I was doing the Today show, I had to be very careful about giving my opinion on anything. You know, I would ask challenging questions, but I wouldn't say, oh, that person was blah, blah, blah. You know, you would kind of put the information out there and let the viewer decide. And now it is. So many people are doing opinion news, and I think in many cases it's called for. I've become much more outspoken and opinionated now that I'm an independent journalist.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But if I were still doing the Today show, there were so many things I couldn't say that I'm able to say now.

[A]

My son, my oldest son just graduated from the Newhouse School of Journalism at Syracuse.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And he learned there that exactly what you just said that, you know, 15, 20 years ago. And then far beyond that, people just, they got the news, they didn't know a whole lot of personal information about the. The person delivering the news as far as what their personal opinions are. That's completely changed since the era of smartphones. And now people want to know about your personal life. Like if you're. Don Lemon is a good friend of ours. And now that he is untethered from corporate, he has his show on YouTube, the Don Lemon Show. And he said, my listeners love when the dog barks in the background or my husband walks by. And it's kind of changed. Where news is in a time of less intimacy, meaning less one on one face to face time. Together we are seeking this interaction, intimacy in our phone via parasocial relationships. And we want to know more personal information about the person delivering the news to us. And like, particularly we have our, this podcast and we have another one where we cover the news. Very opinion heavy. Our other podcast, I have news, but they want to know information about us. They want to know how long we've known each other, you know, how, you know, what, what are we doing later on today. People are very curious about the people that are delivering the news. And I'm curious if that is a symptom of us getting so disconnected from face to face contact. I'm a nosy person, so I get it. Like those of you watching and listening.

[B]

Yeah, I always wanted to know.

[A]

I get it. I want to know because you form these relationships with the people. But it's just, it's very interesting. Have your listeners and the people that still follow you now, do they like that Katie Couric, less corporate Katie Couric? Do they?

[C]

Well, I think people got to know me pretty well on the Today show. It was sort of different. It was, you know, they got to see me in so many different situations, whether it's like cooking with Ina Garten or grilling David Duke. Right, right. So I think they saw me in a lot of different scenarios. So I think the intimacy and the relationship, this parasocial relationship you described was very much a part of why people, if they watch the show or if they liked me or if I was a draw for them, it's because they did feel like they knew me.

[A]

I remember when you're, when your husband died, and I remember I was early 20s and I remember kind of going through that with you and you wore his ring on your neck. And I remember I'd always look and I would think, am I ever gonna look? Cause I'm young. Is she ever gonna not wear that ring anymore? What's gon happen? Because death in your early twenties is still kind of abstract.

[C]

Oh, sure. You know, it's even in your early 40s.

[A]

Right. And you were so, you know, young and, and, and our kids were so.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

Kids were so little. And there's that, wow, this kind of thing can happen anybody? I remember you going to get the colonoscopy. And so there was a massive intimacy with you on that show, more so than other people out there right now because of that experience. And I remember it so vividly and the grace that you handled it with and the light that you shined on, you know, like, I'm I'm. I have this massive loss, but here's what I can do to prevent other people from feeling this. And I remember it was just a. You handled it just so extraordinarily. And it really struck with me as in my young twenties.

[C]

It's interesting, you know, I think about sort of the judgment I used about kind of how to handle that whole situation. And I actually, I. Compared to today, where people share everything. I tried to be careful and control what I did share. You know, I came back on the show, I thanked people for their support. I remember that day so well. Cause I was, you know, it was very emotionally fraught for me. And I told people, you know, that I think it's a very isolating experience when you're somebody sick. Cause you go about. You see people going about their lives, and, you know, they're walking their dogs, or they're at the store buying a sweater with their girlfriend, and you feel like, why is life going on? My life is about to fall off a cliff. And I knew that feeling. So I kind of talked a little bit about that. But after I did that for maybe 90 seconds, and I did wear Jay's wedding ring on a chain, I really never mentioned it again. And I kind of just went on with being professional, partly because it was Jay's life and Jay's death. And I didn't feel. I felt like I needed to protect his privacy. And it was interesting. Even with the colonoscopy, I kind of did it as a public service. But I think about how much is shared now. And people share so much intimate information about themselves and their lives. And I remember when I got the job on the Today show, I had lunch with Jane Pauley, and she said, make sure you protect your children's privacy. And I thought that was such an important thing. And I don't know, you know. Cause some people would use their children kind of as a prop or whatever, and they have no say in the matter. You know, they're not old enough to say, I want to be on national television or I want to do this. And I remember, like, even not early on, not showing Ellie and Carrie's faces. And if they were doing an article or whatever, and I would only let them shoot the back of their head. But I can compare it to now where, you know, people just put their. It's interesting. Cause I know that Kristen Bell always puts a heart over her children's faces, I think, to protect their privacy and maybe security concerns. But it's just interesting to me how everyone just shares so much of their life. And I do remember being very cognizant of. Of wanting to keep some things out of the public sphere, you know?

[A]

Yeah, I think you did it so well. It stuck with me for such a long time. Okay, let's flip the script and let's have Katie Couric ask Pumps and I some questions.

[C]

Okay. So how did this all start?

[A]

So we.

[C]

You're both Oklahoma girls.

[A]

Oklahoma City girls. My husband, attorney. Pumps. Attorney. They were courthouse asshole buddies going to the judge, getting a deal on this. And she needed an interior designer. So my husband said, hey, my friend Angie's gonna call you. She's totally fine. Her husband was a frat brother of mine at Oklahoma State University. She wants to redecorate her kitchen. You'll love her. So I go over to her house and tell them. This is. She tells this part the best. Okay, so I like about the gynecologist that day.

[B]

Speaking of telling everything, she had been.

[A]

To the gynecologist a couple hours before I came over with my third child. Pregnant with.

[B]

Pregnant with my third child. It was the first time I went to the doctor.

[A]

What did you see?

[B]

I was at a new doctor, so I had not groomed properly. I just was like. My old doctor was like, okay, yeah, you're pregnant. We think this is your date. See, in three weeks or a month or whatever, this new doctor's like, yeah, we're going to do a vaginal ultrasound. I'm like, what? I'm prepping for that. And I'm looking down.

[A]

Speaking of oversharing.

[B]

No, that's what I just said. And it's like, you know, 80s hair band down there, no grooming, and there's like a gray hair. And I was like, what the fuck? Because they're sitting there telling me you're a geriatric pregnancy. Because I was 35, you're a geriatric pregnancy. And I go in and I see a gray hair. And I was like, how is this happening? So I'm like, having a horrible day. So the architect gets there. I'd never met Jennifer. I'd seen her work, and I loved her work, but I'd never met her. So she pulls up and it's really one of those moments that's burned in my mind because I typically don't feel bad about myself or think about. I always think you're so great. But not that day.

[A]

Not the gray hair pub day.

[B]

Not the gray hair pube day at 35 with my geriatric pregnancy. And she pulls up and she's in this car. And she literally. I remember in my mind, it was like there was a wind tunnel blowing her hair, like, really pretty hair. She had a really cool, like, shawl thing. Was a designer with the plaid.

[A]

It was a Burberry.

[B]

Burberry. And she had, like, high boots. And she's six feet tall almost. So she was tall. And I just thought, I fucking hate her. I hate every thing about her. I hate that she's thin. I hate her hair. I hate she looks great. I hate everything about her. And she comes in and I knew I wasn't a great decorator. I knew I was bad. And so I said something like, I don't really have good taste today. First words out of mouth. Oh, I know you don't have good taste because you have your silk flower arrangement here and you have one on the thing on the wall, and that's like two. You can't do either one. And you've done both in the entry hall. And I thought that was the funniest thing I'd ever heard in my entire.

[A]

Life because I was like, oh, my.

[B]

God, that's so true. That's so real. And she's the expert. And now she told me she's not gonna bless him. I cut my ass. So I fell head over heels in love and we were inseparable pretty much.

[C]

How many years ago was that, Luke?

[B]

Okay, so 22 or three.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you count being pregnant.

[A]

So we kind of raised our from there. I, you know, I have a lot of interior design clients. And you get really close with people when you're working in their home.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then it's a. It's a short, timed relationship. And you always have a fondness, and they always have a fondness for you. And then you move on. And you might see them at the grocery store or whatever, but she and I, actually, the interior design aspect was the least significant of our relationship, which is the opposite with all of my other clients, kids. And so we were in the same season. And that's such an important time that you meet friends. You meet friends in high school, you meet friends in college, and then as young mothers or young parents, you meet a new set of friends.

[C]

That's true.

[A]

And we were that in that era together. So our kids were all the same age. We had, I remember, like, we have such crazy stories, Katie. Like, so I had already had my oldest son, Dylan, and she was like, okay, you gotta have the second child. You gotta have a second child. So she brings over these ovulation sticks here we go with oversharing. Exactly. Katie goes, can you believe people these days?

[B]

Everything.

[A]

Well, listen, what? We got gray pubes and all sorts of stuff. Katie, we just walked, right. Like, straight out of Central Cass, Right? Exactly. You're talking about. But she was. She said, okay, I've got. I'm bringing over some. What were the ovulation testers? She brought up these ovulation testers. And then she would start psycho dialing me, and she would be like, take an ovulation test right now. So I took one. It said I was ovulating. You need to call Josh and tell him to come home right now and have sex. And I was like, okay. She goes, if you don't call him, I'll call him for you. We were very thruffle. So toxic. I can't believe it now. So I called Josh. He comes over, and she's like, call me the second you finish.

[B]

Like, lift your ass. Put your legs up.

[A]

So I call her. Josh leaves, and he's like, you're such a nut. She's like, okay. In order for it to be a girl. I've read a whole book on this. I think she's an expert. Put two pillows under your pelvis. Put your feet up. I'm gonna set the timer. And I'm like, bye, Josh. So she's coaching me on all this. So we go. And this is before. So Roman is 19 now. He's a freshman at USC. And so I end up being pregnant, but it's about four days before my missed period. And she's like, get over here. I have a pregnancy test. And I'm like, I haven't even missed my period yet.

[B]

Just. I don't care.

[A]

Get over here. Get over here. Here, take the pregnancy test. She says, I'm certain it's a girl. I did everything right. I was a great coach, blah, blah. My sister is a radiologist, a doctor. Okay? So we get to the time where we can go check the genitalia. She's there. And my sister's like, yeah, there's testicles. It's a boy. She's fighting with a radiologist. She's like, no, it has to be. I coached her perfectly. I read the book this has to be a Girl. So the. Those are long, oversharing, psycho personal stories. Two in a row, two back to back. But that is to show you that the chemistry and the friendship and the life experiences that we had together in early motherhood, which a lot of our listeners will know this. Motherhood is. Is sold to you as one thing and it is all of those things. It's wonderful. You feel love that you've never felt before. But the story that people don't tell you about motherhood is it's very lonely and you feel very isolated. And I remember your whole world that you knew before you have kids comes to a screeching halt and you're in kid jail in this house, in charge of this person that you brought home from the hospital that lives with you. And it's very strange at first. And so you, when you can parent with other people that are experiencing those great crazy highs and lows all within a four hour period, you can think this is the greatest thing ever, have the greatest kid to that, oh my God, this is so fucking hard. How am I going to do this, you know, in such a short period of time? You have such erratic mood swings. So we were each other's kind of crazy co pilot through that process and it was just an incredibly bonding experience. And interestingly, when we first met, she was the most religious Republican friend I had and I was the only atheist democratic friend she had ever had in her entire life. I don't think you'd ever met any.

[B]

I'd never met an atheist before in my entire life. I, I knew they had him, I knew they out there, but I didn't know they really existed. I thought they were all in Hollywood.

[A]

California.

[B]

Yeah, California, New York.

[C]

So interesting. And then you had sort of this conversion, right? If you will.

[B]

Right, yes. Life hit me in the ass and.

[C]

You became sort of, you changed your perspective. But I'm just curious as did you grow up in a family, a religious family at all or both your parents were atheists as well? Yeah, so my mother and this was in Oklahoma.

[A]

So my parents are from Dallas and I was born in Dallas and lived there through like the middle of elementary school and then we moved up. So I lived the majority of my life in Oklahoma. But my mother, she had my grandmother, she's deceased now. My maternal grandmother, she was a very complicated woman, probably had borderline personality disorder, became an alcoholic at age 40 and over. And my mother had a very tortured relationship with her. My mother's very kind, a very introverted person. And her mother was kind of like she sent Oral Roberts money. Do you remember Oral Roberts? So her mother was this big Bible thumper and my mother was just a voracious reader, very ever curious person. And when my mother was around seven years old, she lost her purse and her mother, Lorraine was my mother's my grandmother's name and I called her Mama Worth because my grandfather's name was Worth. And so she would always dress up. My mother, who's Linda, and her sister Margaret.

[C]

It.

[A]

And my mom felt like it was kind of performative mothering. And she trot him out to church. And she had bought my mother this little purse. And my mom, she was seven, she lost it. And she knew, like, oh, my God, I'm gonna get it. And her. When my. When we watched Mommy Dearest, the way Joan Crawford would speak to Christina, Yeah. Like, triggered my mother. Like, that's the way my mother was waking up in the middle of the night, kind of manic episodes like that. And so she prayed. She dropped her hands and knees and she prayed, God, please help me find this purse. You know how horrible she's going to be. You know how terrible this is going to be. The person ever appeared. And that was it for my mom. So then she started taking the bus.

[C]

7.

[A]

At 7, she started taking the bus because back then, kids would just pop on the public bus, I guess she'd take the bus to the library. And she started reading more and more in junior high and high school about religion and books that maybe negated it. And then, you know, going back and further. And so I. The only time my family of origin has ever been to church is for a wedding or funeral. And I cannot tell you how weird that is in suburban Oklahoma City. I'm sure I was the skunk at the garden party my entire childhood. So it was a really interesting.

[C]

And would you be very open with people and say, I'm an atheist, or would you kind of keep that private?

[A]

My mother was always. She was a closet atheist for a long time. People would ask me, where do you go to church? I'd say, we don't. And they would say, do you believe in God? Because there's a huge. In Oklahoma City, like, evangelical Christianity is very heavy on recruiting and saving people. And so I was tormented a lot, like, wanting to fit in because the church is such a huge part of social life in the Bible Belt. And the. My peers were consumed with it. They were consumed with virginity, consumed with. With lust, consumed with all of these things that I wasn't consumed with at all. And. But I wanted to hang out with them, but I was never indoctrinated in it. Like my mother said, there's a window of indoctrination, and if you're not indoctrinated, then you'll. It'd be very difficult. So I would kind of go to church with my friends sometimes because they were very eager to get me to go. But these pastors, Katie, they were such a. It was such a hellfire damnation. You know, when you hear, like churches bringing up a rattlesnake. They didn't have the rattlesnake, but I mentioned that to kind of paint the picture that that was the fire in the room about getting saved and the devil, and it was just fucking crazy is what it was. So the more I went to church, the more it affirmed my secularism. And I've been way more outspoken, and my mother's far more outspoken about it now, but she is 80 old, and so she's abundantly aware of, especially growing up in the Bible Belt, how low and frowned upon an atheist it is. And I think if you look at polling, like, would you ever vote for a. An atheist to be president? It's the lowest percentage. So you have like, you know, white man and then you go to woman and then the different colors and then you know, a black lesbian woman in a wheelchair. And then below that you get to an atheist. Yeah, that's how unpopular that is now. I don't think it's so much that anymore. But, you know, during her lifetime, definitely.

[C]

And. And your dad had no religious background or he basically abdicated it when he got married to your mom?

[A]

Yeah, I think he basically abdicated it. He never. There was never any push to go to church. I never heard him say anything religious. His parents, I think, went to church, my grandparents. But none of them on my dad's side were overtly religious. The crazy grandmother, you know, she was meaner than a rattlesnake. She lived forever because mean people just will not die as evidence to the current occupant of the White House. But she was. She was the. The most religious one. And then nobody else in my family really was.

[C]

I think it's interesting because I. I think a lot of people might say they're not religious, I think, and maybe it's changing, but I think this idea of just being very upfront and saying I'm an atheist is still not that common. I think people may feel that way and they may not believe in God or they don't go to church or whatever, but they just say, I'm not religious. Isn't that interesting? Because I think atheism still. Who was the famous atheist woman? I'll look it up and tell you guys later, but I still think atheists are kind of otherized a little bit still.

[A]

I do, too. And I think that I became so outspoken about it. As a defense mechanism, because I was so heavily recruited to be a member of the evangelical church that instead of being passive about it, like my mother, I'm very opinionated and more extroverted about my beliefs than she is. And so then it became kind of like, well, no, I'm an atheist. You know, like. And then in my 20s, I started consuming a lot of, like, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris. And it was like, oh, my God.

[C]

I think the person. I think maybe Adriani can look it up. It's Madeline somebody, I believe. Madeline Murray o'.

[A]

Hare.

[C]

Do you remember? And she was a famous atheist, right? Yeah, I just remember reading about her when I was a kid.

[A]

I'll read about her tonight.

[C]

Meanwhile, should I call you Angie or Pumps or Angie?

[B]

Either one.

[A]

It's kind of fun to call her Pumps.

[C]

Pumps, yeah. So you were raised in a pretty conservative, Republican religious household?

[B]

Yes, Evangelical.

[C]

Evangelical, yes.

[B]

Very religious.

[C]

So how did. How did you decide or what made you reject kind of that theology?

[B]

Okay, here's. Here's what it was. I, growing up, was taught, you're entitled to be better than other people. It's okay for you to give judgment. Bad things won't happen to you because you're chosen, you're special. And so problems that other people have, those aren't gonna be your problems, because that doesn't happen to you people. You know, that happens to other people. That doesn't happen to us. And I believed that until 2008, till I was 38 years old and my life fell apart. And it's like slowly the scales started coming off one by one that like, oh, wait, all of the. This is bullshit. Bad things do happen to me, and I don't get to judge anybody else. And why am I so special? How do I cope emotionally with this kind of stuff? Because I didn't even know this kind of stuff existed because I was so sheltered and homogenous. I mean, I never met an atheist. I certainly didn't know husbands would have sex with hookers. You know, I didn't think that was.

[A]

Real, especially for good, praying Christian girls.

[B]

Good praying Christian girls that went to church and did all the things, like, I did everything right. Why is this happen? My life is supposed to be better. And so that's what really started the journey. But it took a long time to deconstruct it, to reconcile it. And I still have tendencies that I might kick into. You know, just. That's how I was taught always. And I have to check myself. So I feel like I'M constantly learning other people's perspective all the time. And I take that in in a way that I never would have before because my perspective was right, because I'm entitled kind of a situation.

[C]

So politically, when did you go through this transition, if you will?

[B]

I would say college. Like I voted for Bill Clinton, but I registered as a Republican. We all met you.

[A]

You were George W. Bush.

[B]

George W. Bush, but I was for Obama from jump.

[A]

Because of me.

[B]

Probably because of you. But I wore. I mean, I put it sign in the yard.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we did all that.

[A]

But you were not political. I wasn't.

[B]

I was.

[C]

I was.

[B]

So in my life, what I kind of look at now is if you don't have to talk about politics, you don't have to think about politics, you don't have to think about rights for you or anybody else. You live in a pretty privileged bubble. And I didn't have to think any of those things. I didn't think about anybody's rights because I had all the rights I could ever want. So it was at that point when the human rights, like that stuff that I thought could never happen to me. And also, I will say, Jennifer's husband is a criminal defense lawyer. So I did some work for him when I was staying home with my kids, but worked a little bit working in a criminal defense attorney because I was a divorce lawyer. That just seeing the poverty and how the system goes against poor people. So that was part of it too. Like, we have to do reform for everybody. Just because you want your taxes cut doesn't mean you can be homophobic and say so and so can't love so and so. So it's. It was a process, but there was.

[C]

A lot of things.

[B]

But I would really just say real world experience, that I'm not special and bad things can happen to everybody, regardless of any of the conditions of your life. So that's kind of where it started. 2008, kind of completed now.

[C]

And did you become sort of radicalized by Donald Trump? I mean, tell me about how that happened.

[B]

I thought he was drunk. I did not know. Like, I was kind of just like, whatever. I thought he was drunk and they wouldn't take his phone. And so I'm asking her one day, I'm like, why does no one take his phone after he starts drinking? Like, this is embarrassing for everybody.

[A]

She did. That's what she thought.

[B]

I was serious as a heart attack.

[A]

She just wasn't that political. She was super religious and tried to recruit me a lot. But politics, I could Be like, you need to vote for Obama. And she'd be like, okay, Jesus would think everybody has to have healthcare. Sure, let's do it. So she could go that way. She was super religious. And then the Trump thing happened, and I'm calling her, like, oh, my God, this is awful. This is so horrible. And she's like, ah, it's gonna be fine. You know, no big deal. And then she started paying attention, and she called me, and she's like, why don't they take his phone away when he's drinking? I'm like, he's a teetotaler, a famous one. Like, he. This shit is sober. She was like, oh, my God. So then she started getting into it, and she was watching the wrong stuff. So then I turned her on to the Midas touch. Right when they first started, I said, you need to watch independent news. I followed these guys on Instagram. Instagram. I think they have a YouTube channel. Well, then she turns into the person that I knew that followed the news cycle the most. Who was the most is. Was my mother, the atheist. And is my mother. And then pumps starts diving in. So I'd go see my mom, and she's watching all this stuff. Then I go over to Pump's house, and she's watching all the same stuff as my mother. And then they're texting all these stories they both love. A gay Republican sex scandal, which. Who doesn't?

[B]

You know?

[A]

And all they could. What I like about kind of our show is we can. We can vacillate from a serious issue about egregious human rights violations to who is Bubba? And was Trump blowing him? Because that's a real normal conversation that you have with a friend about politics. We talk about something serious. And then as a. As a. You know, as a salve or respite from the serious nature of that, you might dive into something more salacious and juicy. And I think that's why podcasting has kind of gone the way it has, and people are getting on a lot of news from spaces like this because it's more. It adheres more to a normal conversation, a normal conversational flow. And she and I do that on microphones and then off the microphones, too. Like, when we're on tour and somebody is with us, they'll be like, oh, my God, y' all are the exact same.

[C]

Off.

[A]

And they're like. And our producer will say, quit talking to each other and wait till you have your microphones on, because this is great. Come on. Content. So it's Always us kind of jumping, you know, from the salacious to the serious. But it's been really, I really, I, I tell pumps this all the time. I think her personal story is such an important story to be highlighted because a lot of women in particular in red state have been sold a bill of goods that if you're a good girl and you pray and you do these things, things, everything in your life is going to be just fine. And then they get to adulthood and they're ill prepared and they don't have the financial resources to perhaps get out of an abusive marriage or a marriage that they need to get out of. And the evolution that somebody can adapt differently from what their parents prescribed. These are your political beliefs, these are your religious beliefs. And this is just what you have to have, have millions of Americans have the exact same beliefs as their parents and you don't have to. And it's not betraying your parents or your family to have something different. So being her friend and watching that political evolution has been so cool because it's very organic. And then she started, you know, now she's onto a lot more shows and people that I never even knew about.

[C]

And, and I'm, I'm curious how you're friends or I guess Oklahoma City is pretty blue, right? At least purple, very purple compared to the rest of Oklahoma. And I'm curious what the reaction has been not only to the fact that you now have a lot of people listening to you all, but about your political views. Do you get much pushback or are people, do they act strange around you or they supportive? I'm curious. Or does it run the gamut?

[B]

I would say people first of all, the older I got in, the more the evolution. You kind of weed out the people in your life that you're just kind of like, eh, I don't know. So that I kind of had weeded them out before. I feel like a lot of my friends, we've kind of grown in the same direction, so that's been good. Now my parents are dyed in the wool. Triple trump. Fox News. Snorting MAGA all day long.

[C]

Fox News snorty.

[A]

I've never heard that.

[B]

They do now pause when I walk in. They pause it and sometimes they even turn it off. But it used to just blare in the background because they know that I think it's intellectually dishonest and I think that it makes them look stupid that they watch it.

[A]

See, she sounds like my mother. I tell pumps all the time. You've morphed into my Mother. This is my mother. She thinks that life, like having crazy magical thinking or watching Fox News isn't is a. A lack of total character flaw. She does. She's so liberal and so progressive, but when it comes to, like, religious magical thinking or, you know, buying into propaganda news, she just thinks it's such a character flaw. My mother very, very much like pumps now. Yeah.

[B]

So my parents and I, it's funny, we've had very few conversations about it. They just pretend it isn't there, which is a pretty easy thing to do in our family, in an evangelical family. Like, that's kind of how it rolls. So it's not that much different.

[C]

We don't really talk about things.

[B]

We don't talk about things. So, you know, when I went, like to California, we did the moderation for Kamala Harris's book tour.

[C]

Oh, yeah? How was that?

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Cool.

[C]

It was so much fun.

[A]

Yes. So many of the things that we've been able to do at midlife to be women that have a midlife, new career.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Men do that stuff all the time at 50. They start a new business and blah, blah, blah. But for us to do it. And we've interviewed Obama. We're sitting with Katie. Correct. We interviewed. It's it. We never don't think it's a big deal. We are always so grateful and have enormous gratitude for what a wild experience it is to be too women from Oklahoma City that took a risk and now be able to do these things and be in the conversation. It's never lost on us and the gratitude and how cool it is that we're doing this.

[C]

Did you enjoy talking to Kamala?

[A]

Yeah, she's cool. I like Kamala.

[B]

I like her a lot.

[C]

Josh Shapiro is talking about. Have you been reading this?

[B]

We were talking about on the way here?

[C]

Yeah. I just saw something very briefly. I guess he's angry about how he was represented in her book. Book. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Did you read it?

[C]

I haven't read it yet. So I read it because obviously you needed to. And I'm going to.

[A]

It was really good.

[B]

There was.

[A]

There was a bit where he. They pick him up. She's interviewing him for vice president, and he is depicted as kind of being pretty thirst trappy about wanting the position. So she intentionally had a. A friend of hers or somebody that worked for her at as VP pick up the people in like a nondescript car and they would hide in the back seat. And she wanted to know what kind of questions they asked her and how they Treated her and like.

[C]

Wait, wait.

[A]

Was she treated.

[B]

How she treated this? How the person.

[A]

Kamala wanted to know how the person that she assigned to be the driver was she treated as the help? Was she treated with respect?

[C]

Right, right. That's actually very interesting.

[B]

I thought it was brilliant.

[A]

I thought it was really smart. And my. My remembering of this is that he was kind of haughty. Yes. Haughty and arrogant. That he was going to get the. That he was going to get it. And that was my read of it. But we've interviewed him on the Kamala Harris's Reproductive Freedom Freedom tour bus thing. Where were we? In Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Yeah. Yeah. And we got to interview a ton of governors. We went to the DNC and said we. And we've interviewed. We interviewed so many cool, like, politicians. And I liked him, but it tracked from my experience with him on the Reproductive Freedom tour bus and to what she wrote there. I was like, oh, that definitely tracks. Like, if she would have written that about J. Re Pritzker, I'd be like, God, get that from him at all. If she would. Written. If she would have written that about, like, an Elizabeth Warren or other people that we've interviewed in person. But, God, that really shocks me. But what I read and what we experienced, did it surprise you?

[B]

No.

[C]

Yeah. Interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I interviewed him during the pandemic when he was Attorney General. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And he was charming and lovely and kind of, I think, enjoying the spotlight and kind of surprised he was in it, in a way.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So I don't know. Things can change for a person, but it's very Kind.

[B]

Personable.

[A]

He was very personable. I don't want to leave the. He was very personable and kind.

[B]

There was just an arrogance that I got from him that I didn't get from a lot of other people in his same position.

[C]

But now I think he's a little annoyed because I guess he does come across not great.

[A]

Yeah. Like J.B. pritzker when we. Before they turned on the cameras, he's okay. Now. Where are y' all from? Oh, my God, I'm. I met your once. And he told us this kind of backstory. Real. And then it was. We ended. He goes, wait, I want to tell you something else else. Same thing. This was at the dnc. Elizabeth Warren is from Oklahoma City. Born, went to high school there and then, you know, left. And so we started bonding about, like, restaurants in Oklahoma City burger joints. And we talked to her so much off camera before and after. Her staff is like, come on, Senator, come on. So there, there's just, and you've probably experienced this a lot. There are some people that come in, sit down and the camera's on and that's when you talk to them. And then there's the ones who really kind of want to know you before and after. And I always remember.

[B]

Yeah, that's. I think that's a great question.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

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[A]

All right, listener. A lot of you want real weight loss and you see everybody else out in the world on these GLP1s, but it's difficult because you don't know if you can afford it. And it's so confusing to understand how your insurance can work. You know, life is already so complicated and when your health and weight loss goals take a back seat because of insurance complexity, it's easy to feel so incredibly stuck. That's why I want to talk to you guys about about roe, our sponsor. ROE has an insurance checker and it lets you know if you're covered for GLP1s for free. If you want to see if you're covered, just submit your insurance card and ROE will take care of the rest. No paperwork, no hassle, no waiting on hold. Roe's free insurance checker will send you a comprehensive report of your coverage details so you can make a decision that's right for your goals. So listener, join the over 1 million people who've trusted Roe to check their coverage for free. Go to Ro Had it for your free insurance check. That's Ro Co Had it to see if your insurance covers GLP1s for free. Go to Rogue Co Safety for boxed warning and full safety information about GLP1 medications. Okay, we're going to play a game with you, okay. Called had it or Hit It.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

This is a very famous game.

[B]

Very famous.

[C]

I know. I know this game.

[A]

Okay. Oh, my God. Welcome to had it or Hit it. I would hit it.

[C]

Had it.

[A]

Had it. I hit it every day. Sometimes twice a day. All right. Had it or hit it. Extremely dry skin.

[C]

Had it.

[A]

Same.

[C]

Oh, my God. Do you know that I've woken myself up the last two nights? I mean, you girls don't need to know all my personal medical issues, but I have. I have eczema and my skin is extremely dry and sensitive. And I've actually woken myself up scratching my skin and my arms because in New York with the dry heat and we forgot to turn our humidifier on last night. But I've had it. Okay, enough with that. Had it.

[A]

Had it. Okay. Had it or hit it. Train etiquette.

[C]

Oh, had it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't like people who are really loud and don't think that anybody else is around them or they kick the back of my seat.

[B]

Oh, same.

[C]

Hate that.

[A]

Do you take the.

[C]

Where?

[A]

Where do you take the train to, like, dc?

[C]

Dc yeah. Yeah.

[A]

How far is that?

[C]

It's like a three hour. I love the train. Very relaxing. If you sit with the table, you can get a lot done. Yeah. I don't know. There's something really nice about it. I remember taking one from D.C. to New York. I forget what I was doing, but President Biden was in the little section in front of us. It was so crazy. And I've covered him for years. You know, I've known him for a very long time, but it was just very funny. He. You know, it was after the election, he was going back to Delaware. I think he'd been in D.C. for something. And anyway, how funny was that? And there were Secret Service agents everywhere. And my producer and I sat down and we're like, oh, my God, it's Joe Biden. Yeah, it was fun. I see.

[B]

I see that on Instagram. Every now and then. People post, hey, guess who I was on the train? And I'm just like, that's gotta be security nightmare.

[A]

I'll tell you one of the weirdest things. And then we'll go back to the game. So, Roland Garros, 2024. My husband and our Big Ten tennis players.

[C]

I went there one year.

[A]

Yeah. It's so fun, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So we're Strolling around Paris. Josh is my husband, Josh and me. And we're walking down Rue de Saint Honore, and we're walking, and Josh goes, is that John Kerry? And he's probably about, like, 20 yards away from us. And as my vision comes into focus, I was like, oh, my God, it's. It's John Kerry. And he's heading towards us in the sidewalks, you know, as wide as a toothpick in Paris. And so as we're approaching, we're approaching, like, oh, my God, it's John Kerry. There's not one person with him. And I was like, hi. So I was like, senator, Secretary. I didn't know what to say. We're like, hi, we're big. And it was just this awkward. And he was pleasant and normal, and my husband and I were awkward and weird and all of the things. And then we walked on, and I commented, Josh, I said, it's so crazy when you think about, like, he was the Democratic nominee, he was a senator, he was Secretary of state, probably surrounded by people, and here he is just walking by himself with not one person around him, which I'm sure he probably really enjoys.

[C]

After all, it's funny because Adriana, who's my producer, sitting over there, we were at south by Southwest, and we were walking around Austin. And, you know, I don't know. I'm good at recognizing people, but it was from the back, and I said to Adriana, I think that's Elizabeth Warren and her husband. So, sure enough, like, we get a little closer just to make sure. And it was Elizabeth Warren. And so we came up and said, hey. And she's so nice and approachable and relaxed. I love her. It is funny when you see people in the wild.

[B]

It's really, really wild. Well, seeing you for the first time was weird.

[C]

Was it?

[B]

I mean, it seems normal now, but it was like, oh, my gosh, there's Katie Courk, like, right there.

[C]

And you said, I'm smaller than you expected. Yes. Everybody shrun a. I've shrunk an inch. Which is so upsetting you guys.

[B]

No, but just in general, I feel like people on television are a lot tinier in real life than they are on television.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's what they say. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Had it or hit it? Pete Hegseth.

[C]

Had it.

[B]

Had it. So embarrassing.

[C]

I just feel like he was never qualified, you know, as a former Pentagon correspondent, which I always laugh. Cause I make myself sound like I, you know, covered it for years. Like it was David Martin or something. But you know, when I worked at the Pentagon and I had to go to naval bases or on an aircraft carrier, I went to cover the Persian Gulf War. And, you know, I went to, you know, all these stories I did during my time there. And my dad had been in the Navy during World War II, but we weren't like a big military family. You know, he, he. After the war, he became in the Navy Reserve or whatever. I gained so much respect. Not that I didn't respect them before, but such a deep, profound appreciation for the armed services and for the men and women who serve our country and the sacrifice and the discipline that they exhibited all the time and just how well mannered everybody was. And it is, to me, really upsetting to see someone who is so unqualified for that job. He never was qualified in the first place. And I think that he has shown such a lack of respect for protocol, for a chain of command and for a way things are done. I mean, it's fine if you want to update things or switch things up or whatever. And I'm not saying you have to be zealously. Committed to the status quo, but there just seems to be this lack of respect for the institutions. And I know he says, you know, we have our warriors backs, but there's just something so cowboy about the whole thing. Right.

[A]

Something so unserious position.

[C]

As they say on succession. You are not a serious person.

[B]

Right, Exactly.

[C]

You are not serious people. Right.

[A]

Across the board.

[C]

And so I'm just disappointed and I just, just don't think he deserves to be in that position. It is an awesome responsibility to be Secretary of Defense. It's a huge, huge organization.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And there's just nothing in his background, to me that says that he can, can hold that job and do it competently and well.

[A]

I completely agree. All right. Had it or hit it AI high.

[C]

Can I be in the middle of hit it and hit it?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

I'm still learning about AI and still understanding it and still appreciating the positives and trying to protect us. Not that I have any way of doing that, but appreciate the downsides of it. So I think it's. It's still evolving and growing and playing a bigger, an increasingly big role in our society. So I'm sort of mixed on it right now, but I do worry that some of the conversations about the negative impact of AI are not being had. And I worry that government isn't stepping in enough. Enough that people aren't appreciating how transformative it will be for better. But Also for worse. And I think these conversations should be going on. So I'm, I'm kind of in the middle on that.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. I, you know, I don't know a lot about it, but we recently had Care Swisher.

[C]

Oh, I love care. She and I are good friends.

[A]

She's so great. And we had her in our podcast and she was talking about, about younger people who were so increasingly disconnected, face to face contact with people, forming bonds with AI chatbots. And you know, the chatbots are designed to keep you engaged with them. Sycophantic, obsequious. And it goes on and on. And there's been suicides.

[C]

Right, right, right. Someone I know is doing a documentary on that.

[A]

Yeah. So I agree with you. There's a of lot, lot. Like with any new technology, it's here. And so we have to learn as much as we can about it so that it can be safely regulated.

[C]

I mean, I think the ill. There's some of the things that you're describing could be said about social media prior to AI. Right. I mean, Jonathan Haidt writes all about that and kind of the isolating quality of AI and the impact it's having on kids and their development and their social skills and their sort of maturity. But I think what concerns me more is how AI has the potential to change our whole society in terms of jobs, in terms of should there be universal basic income, how are we preparing in the next five, 10 years for the complete obliteration of certain jobs? You know, the job market is already very difficult for young people who are graduating from college. There are going to be a whole host of jobs that are just wiped out. And so I think in a society that is really focused on your work in many cases. Right. And how are we going to adjust to this new norm? I think that there's not enough conversation about that.

[A]

I completely agree. Okay, last one. Had it or hit it. The United States of America had it.

[C]

Because, you know, I'm friendly with Sheryl Crow and I love Cheryl and you know, we were talking about it and it's like, this is our country, you know, And I think that the minute you give up, and you know, that's why I don't want anyone to own the flag. Like it's everybody's flag. And the idea that that has become a symbol of one particular political point of view is just wrong to me. And I think everybody who is American deserves the right to fight for the country that they want and they believe in. So I would never have it or be done with the United States of America. I love my country. I feel so blessed. It's given me so much. And I will never give up on the kind of country that I think secretly everybody wants. I hope they do. I know, and maybe they don't. And maybe I'm too Pollyannish about that.

[A]

No, I get it.

[C]

But I really, I just, I don't know, I still. And maybe this is a flaw or maybe it's a way I protect my psyche, but I still believe that most people are inherently good. And I think that sometimes they're influenced by negative forces. You know, what you were talking earlier about kind of tribalism. I think the loneliness epidemic is a big factor when it comes to the polarization we're experiencing because I think people are desperate to belong to something, to a group, to like minded people, to feel some kind of kinship and camaraderie. And I think that's masking this deep loneliness that is affecting so many people as some of our community entities kind of crumble, you know? You know, you can say what you want about church, but there is something, a communal aspect to church. You know, sometimes I go to church and I would call myself probably a secular humanist or agnostic, but I also don't want to be so arrogant that I know for sure there's nothing beyond our human experience, you know, and it's also maybe hedging my bets a little bit. No, I totally relate to that. I totally agree. But sometimes I go to church just because I like to be around people listening to music. But I think there are fewer and fewer opportunities for us to gather in these circumstances and to be with our neighbors and to get to know each other. And I think it just makes people so vulnerable to this desire to feel part of something and a group. And so I think that really does contribute to this polarization and the anger. And I do wish, you know, I've, I, you know, probably many views similar to you, but I really don't want to hate people who disagree with me. I don't want to. I find it, it's so corrosive and it's so unhelpful and I just wish we could get back to a place where people weren't leading with hate. Cause there's so much of that going on right now and it becomes exhausting and as I said, corrosive. It just, Life is less fun and it just, I don't know, I just, I wish that we could somehow find some more common ground. And I think if we got away from these devices, which I think are brainwashing everyone with algorithmic, you know, with algorithms that are feeding you. Right. More of the same. More of the same. I just don't know how we got to this place where everybody hates each other.

[B]

Right.

[C]

It just sucks, honestly.

[A]

It really does. And I think that I'm hopeful as pendulums swing and we all know that there is a new breed of politicians that aren't beholden to corporations, that fight for everybody, every person, economic equality, human rights, the same for everybody. And recaptures that sense of, you know.

[C]

Being an American and hope and actually, I think that a lot of people, you know, I do feel like upward mobility is sort of the driver of people working together. Right. And now it's become, with income inequality, I think is feeding a lot of this resentment and anger and feeling like the first generation of people who are not going to be better off than their parents. And, you know, I don't know, it's just. It's very complicated. But I just. Wouldn't it be nice to have a leader who was more unifying? If that's even possible? I don't know. Is it?

[A]

I think it is. I think it is. I think that you see the Zoran Mamdani who ran in New York and he spoke to something I thought very well, and he spoke to universal human rights and he was up against a billionaire class. Lots of Islamophobic attacks were projected onto him and he never played a victim. People accused him of being an anti Semite, despite him saying, I absolutely value, you know, making sure that we see a decrease in anti Semitism, a decrease. Decrease in Islamophobia. And he linked, you know, universal human rights in such a way that we have some friends in Oklahoma, Katie, that have a trans daughter. And raising a trans child. Child in a red state right now is so unbelievably brutal.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it is isolating. Sorry, my throat got dry. Isolating. Terrifying. And when they saw him at the gay pride parade and he didn't just have a rainbow flag, he had a trans flag. And he said he wanted New York City to be a sanctuary city for. For trans people. And that level of inclusivity for some people, people, they hear that and they get so angry. And I think that what we have to do in these spaces and with these microphones is try to, of course we get riled up about all sorts of stuff and shit talk, but also try to humanize a lot of these groups that are getting dehumanized. And if we just get a little Bit more people that know about it, and then they talk to somebody else, and they talk to somebody else, and we start to build another ecosystem that is pro human rights and pro democracy. I feel like. I feel like that we have the winds behind our back now, and I know that's daunting and depressing. Sometimes they'll watch the news and. But I feel like this is our fight. We've all seen it in history where you've seen other generations before us that, you know, marched on the bridge, you know, for civil rights, and really, really fought a good fight. And I feel like this is our fight.

[C]

And.

[A]

And it's as simple as the people that are listening to this podcast right now that are forming community in the comment section below, that are feel isolated, maybe they're in a red state, maybe they're trans or queer or black, and they feel increase of racism, that it's important, specifically for women that look like us in our socioeconomic positioning to let everybody know we are here to fight for you because we believe in quality, quality equality for everybody. And for the triple trumpers in red states, we believe in it for you, too. I'm sorry. Tough titties. We want you to have good health care. We don't want you to go bankrupt because you get cancer. And so I'm hopeful that we can continue by doing things like this, having conversations, laughing, talking about gray pubic hairs, but also talking about serious things. We're building communities in the best ways that we can in this new space that we're navigating. And the feedback that I know you get and that we get it, that's helpful to people. Yeah, it's helpful because this government feels very abusive right now. And it's helpful to form these communities and to hear our conversations and know that somebody's fighting for them and somebody sees them.

[C]

You know, I always think there is some room if people would just allow themselves to kind of be open to at least a conversation. And now I don't think we're talking to each other. We're just yelling at each other.

[A]

I agree.

[C]

And, you know, I just think we've lost our. Our ability to. To have a conversation. Right.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's. Tell our listeners how they can still follow you and find you. You're on substack.

[C]

Yeah, I'm kind of everywhere. You're on all of this stuff. I always say mass media has become an oxymoron. It's all about niche media now. It is of aggregating eyeballs on different platforms and Iterating your content to live on different platforms. So we have. So we started this company about seven years ago primarily because I had done every job I could in linear television news, but I still wanted to work. And I love what I do. I love. I'm very curious. I like to have these conversations. And so about seven years ago, we started. I hate the title. It's Katie Couric Media. I did not want to call it that, but I think, you know, because I was in legacy media when there were fewer choices, I did inevitably, as you all know, kind of become a household name. People knew who I was because there weren't a million different things to listen to or read. And so we started this company and we have a six day a week newsletter. We have other newsletters we have that's called Wake Up Call. People can sign up on Katie Couric.com we have another one called Body and Soul, all about women's health. We have one called Good Taste about recipes. We have one called Ripple Effect, which we do with Paul Nicklin and Christina Mittemeyer, who are extraordinary conservationists and photographers and videographers. And then we do. I have a podcast called Next Question, which we also run on YouTube. So I think it's sort of all the things and substack on substack now. And yeah, and we just do. We try to do content and really seed it as many places as we can and meet people where they are. And yeah, that's what I'm doing. So it's not hard to find me. Sometimes people say, what are you doing now? Are you retired? What are you doing? I'm always like, no, I'm not retired.

[A]

I see your stuff all the time.

[C]

I'm like, I'm working so, so hard, harder than I ever worked before. Just because, you know, the current fragmented media landscape requires it.

[A]

Right, it does. And owning your own business.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

More work just in general.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Katie Couric. This has been a dream.

[C]

You guys are so sweet and I'm so glad that I really was able to learn more about you. And I'm going to keep learning about you and follow you and watch kind of as you do this and grow and try different things. But obviously you're striking a chord. You're getting this audience of people who really appreciate and enjoy listening to you. I mean, it's a huge compliment. I hope you know that Kamala Harris reached out to you and said, will you interview me on stage for my book tour? I couldn't get an interview with the bitch I'm kidding. I love Kamala, but I mean, sort of like yesterday's news in some ways, you know. So it's great to have these new fresh voices and I'm so glad that you have found this second act together. It's so exciting.

[B]

It is really fun.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And we're the fresh act, according to Katie Kirk.

[C]

You are. You're fresh.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

All right, listener. Thank you, Katie, for joining us.

[C]

You're welcome.

[A]

See you guys next Tuesday and Thursday.

[C]

What I've had it with.

[A]

I've had it with that. Listen up, patriots, gatriots and Natriots. We have a new podcast that has dropped. It's called I hip News. It's Monday through Friday. Every day, 15 to 20 minute hot takes on the political landscape of the United States of America. Always served with a side of petty grievances.

[B]

We are on all the the available platforms. Apple, Spotify, Google, whatever you get your podcast and YouTube.

[A]

Please go rate, subscribe and review so that we will chart upwards with America's greatest legal mind. Pumps. Pumps. What does an eagle say? Kaka. A little bit more enthusiasm. Kaka. That's it. That's, that's, that's the patriotism that this country needs right there. Shopify's point of sale system helps you sell at every stage of your business.

[B]

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How about card readers you can rely.

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On anywhere you sell?

[C]

Thanks.

[A]

Have a good one. Yep, that too. Want one place to manage all your online and in person sales?

[B]

That's kind of our thing wherever you sell. Businesses that grow grow with Shopify.

[A]

Sign up for your $1 a month trial at shopify.com listen. Shopify.com listen.