Fascism, But Stupid

Summary

Podcast Summary: "I've Had It" — Fascism, But Stupid

Hosts: Jennifer Welch & Angie "Pumps" Sullivan
Guest: Jon Favreau (Pod Save America)
Release Date: December 18, 2025

Episode Theme Overview

In this irreverent and incisive episode, Jennifer, Pumps, and guest Jon Favreau (co-host of Pod Save America) dive into the rise of "stupid fascism," Christian nationalism, and political apathy in America, with a special focus on the MAGA movement’s evolution and the Democratic Party’s struggles to meet the moment. From personal pet peeves to public policy, the conversation blends sharp humor, firsthand stories from red-state America, and deep concern about the country’s future—an episode both cathartic and thought-provoking.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Roundtable: "What Have You Had It With?"

[02:11] - [07:51]

• Pumps: Hates "family style" dining — wants her own food, dislikes unnecessary sharing and consensus-building.

• Jennifer: Shares a shocking neo-Nazi-tinged taunt overheard at an Oklahoma City Thunder game, sparking a discussion on the surprising normalization of extremist rhetoric in daily American life.

  "This guy’s a neo-Nazi. So then I turn and look...and my son’s like, ‘Did you hear that? Mom’s like, a fucking neo-Nazi!’" — Jennifer ([03:51])

• Jon Favreau: Complains about rising "blood and soil" nationalism being openly espoused by American conservatives like Stephen Miller and J.D. Vance, warning of its dangerous post-Trump evolution.

  "Stephen Miller and J.D. Vance telling us that America is defined by blood and soil nationalism... These are deeply radical, dangerous ideas." — Jon Favreau ([08:03])

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2. The New Right’s Embrace of Blood-and-Soil Nationalism

[08:01] - [11:31]

• Jon details troubling remarks by Stephen Miller and J.D. Vance denying the possibility of immigrant assimilation and redefining American-ness by ancestral bloodline, not principles.

• Expresses frustration that Democrats are not mounting a direct attack on this narrative:

  "There is a bigger thing at stake here...how we define what this country is and who gets to be American." — Jon Favreau ([11:31])

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3. Democratic Party Weaknesses & The "Assumption Politics" Trap

[11:42] - [13:45]

• Jennifer blasts Democrats for assuming decency and failing to fight hard enough, especially referencing the appointment of Merrick Garland as AG and the party’s persistent hope that voters will "do the right thing."

  "Democrats...assume that people are going to do the right thing because they do the right thing. And these people are fucked up." — Jennifer ([13:32])

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4. Making a Better Argument for Democracy

[17:27] - [19:31]

• Jon: The problem with talking "democracy defense" is that it feels too abstract or earnest; most people don’t feel a tangible connection between democracy and their day-to-day lives.

• Jennifer: Argues for more aggressive, ridicule-based messaging ("go full blown pit bull"), mirroring the right’s approach for mass appeal.

  "The attention span of the average American is one Instagram slide." — Jennifer ([18:26])

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5. The Problem with Red-State Supermajorities

[20:28] - [23:05]

• They discuss the collapse of education and quality of life under GOP state control, using Oklahoma as an example: education rank dropping from 17th to 50th, and policies harmful to women and minorities.

  "If you don’t like your life, the people you blame are the Republicans. They’ve had everything." — Jennifer ([21:23])

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6. Religion, Politics, and Progressive Messaging

[26:07] - [30:55]

• Jennifer suggests that Democrats need "good Christian" candidates to reclaim faith-based language, as the right’s weaponization of evangelical Christianity has been central to their cult-like political success.

  "Republicans brought religion into politics and the Democrats have never responded to it...We need to use this form of Christianity and say, ‘This doesn’t seem very Christlike to me.’" — Jennifer ([27:08])

• Jon explains his Jesuit college experience and the importance of moral clarity and values-based messaging in progressive politics.

  "Having some kind of organizing moral principle, whether you are part of organized religion, whether you’re not...is really important." — Jon ([29:02])

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7. The MAGA Movement & Indoctrination

[32:58] - [36:43]

• Jennifer compares Trump to a mega-church pastor and highlights how both religious and political extremism provide a sense of belonging, blurring lines between faith and cult.

  "Donald Trump is exactly like a mega church pastor...he’s a grifter, he’s putting on a show...he reminds me so much [of them]." — Jennifer ([33:07])

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8. The Rise of Anti-Empathy & Weaponization of Cruelty

[34:45] - [36:43]

• Discussion about new right-wing attacks on empathy (even Elon Musk labels it "toxic"), and rejection of core religious and American values in pursuit of cruelty toward the vulnerable.

  "There’s a...movement with this, where now it is the anti empathy movement...because they know that Jesus is a problem." — Jennifer ([34:56])

• Jon points out the bright spot: if Jesus and the Declaration of Independence are obstacles for the right, Democrats have strong ground.

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9. The Next Generation of Far-Right (and the Coalition Problem)

[37:26] - [42:18]

• Jennifer notes the far-right’s growing platform for extremists like Nick Fuentes and how necessary it is for Republican leaders to keep the increasingly radical coalition together.

• Jon explains that newer entrants to the party are more anti-Semitic and openly racist, forcing ambitious Republicans to appease them for electoral gain.

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10. Cult Dynamics, Complicity, & Country Club Republicans

[42:18] - [45:57]

• Jennifer observes that both "active" and "passive" Trumpism exist, and that country club Republicans are often just as if not more insidious in maintaining the MAGA project—smart enough to hide it in polite company.

  "There is a passive Trumpism in white circles that exists in America that country club Republicans adhere to...even more insidious than the cultists." — Jennifer ([45:16])

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11. Tech Oligarchs, AI, and the Loneliness Epidemic

[46:35] - [54:16]

• Jon rails against tech billionaires, highlighting the real coming job losses, risks of unregulated AI, and their refusal to accept any consumer protections.

  "The richest people in the world...are even saying now...that at some point, humans won’t need to do jobs." — Jon ([47:40])

• Discussion expands to the damaging mental health impacts of social media, the illusion of connection, and how both left and right are ready for a populist backlash against tech overlords.

  "Another issue where you can win over some folks who are more conservative...because these big [tech companies]...there is an opening." — Jon ([53:03])

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12. Political Games: "Had It or Hit It"

[55:19] - [77:58]

Fun, rapid-fire takes on public figures and topics, featuring:

• Gretchen Whitmer: Mixed feelings; praised as a governor, but Jon wants more vocal opposition to Trump for 2028 contenders.

• Ms. Rachel: Strongly defended from online attacks, especially absurd accusations of antisemitism.

• Trump’s Cabinet Meetings: “Hit it” for trainwreck value—“great content.”

• The War on Christmas: "Had it"—unanimous agreement it’s a manufactured, ridiculous culture-war distraction.

  "What war? Christmas wins every year." — Jon ([73:19])

• The United States of America: All hosts still "hit it"—express profound belief in the American idea and the progressive project to claim patriotism.

  "Real patriotism is saying, I love this country, I want to make it better." — Jon Favreau ([76:42])

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13. Morality & Foreign Policy: Israel-Gaza, AIPAC

[63:22] - [72:07]

• Wide-ranging, honest take on Democratic ambivalence about Israel, the shifting base opinion, and the risks associated with lack of "moral clarity."

  "Do you believe that the life of an Israeli child is worth...as valuable as the life of a Palestinian child?...If you believe in the dignity of every human being and every child..." — Jon Favreau ([66:09])

• Jennifer calls out party leaders (like Hakeem Jeffries) for moral cowardice, notes grassroots frustration, and warns that figures like Marjorie Taylor Greene may seize populist messaging on aid to Israel.

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14. Pop Culture Fun: "Fuck, Marry, Kill" Crooked Media Edition

[78:16] - [79:44]

• The hosts and Jon play "Fuck, Marry, Kill" with Lovett, Favreau, and Tommy Vietor. Levity and inside-jokes round out the episode.

  "When we moved to LA...Lovett lived directly across the street from my now wife and I. And so he was basically living with us...It was hilarious." — Jon Favreau ([79:15])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Democracy: good for a government, bad for a restaurant." — Jon Favreau ([02:53])
• "These people are fucked up. Need to be in padded cells and straight jackets." — Jennifer ([13:48])
• "It is a layup to bring these people down and after you get them hooked in, then you can get into more nuanced conversations." — Jennifer ([18:26])
• "Trump is exactly like a mega church pastor—he's a grifter, he's putting on a show." — Jennifer ([33:07])
• "If the other party sees the Declaration of Independence and Jesus as an obstacle to their political agenda, maybe we have a case to make." — Jon Favreau ([36:53])
• "The attention span of the average American is one Instagram slide." — Jennifer ([18:26])
• "What war? Christmas wins every year." — Jon Favreau ([73:19])
• "Real patriotism is...saying, I love this country, I want to make it better." — Jon Favreau ([76:42])

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Timestamps: Important Segments

• [02:11] Opening Grievances & Neo-Nazi Trash Talk at Sports Events
• [08:01] Jon Favreau on "Blood & Soil" Nationalism in American Politics
• [11:42] Democrats’ Fatal Flaw: "Assumption Politics"
• [17:27] Pitbull Tactics vs. Earnest Defense of Democracy
• [20:28] Red State Decline: Oklahoma Case Study
• [26:07] Reclaiming Religion for Progressives
• [32:58] Trumpism as Cult – Links to Mega-Church Culture
• [46:35] Tech Oligarchs, AI, and the Coming Economic/Spiritual Crisis
• [55:19] "Had It or Hit It" Game – Whitmer, Ms. Rachel, Trump's Cabinet
• [63:22] Democratic Woes: Israel/Gaza, AIPAC, and the Base’s Moral Shift
• [78:16] "Fuck, Marry, Kill" Crooked Media Edition

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Final Thoughts

This energetic, candid episode blends comedy with a no-holds-barred critique of the rightward drift in American politics and the complacency of the Democratic establishment. Through stories, hot takes, and passionate commentary, Jennifer, Pumps, and Jon Favreau highlight what’s worth fighting for, what needs to be called out, and where hope (and humor) might yet break through.

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For more, listen to the full episode wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

[A]

All right, listen. Patriots, Gay Trots, they Trio, Black Triots, Brown Trio, AKA I Hipsters, AKA I've had It, listeners. Jon Favreau, co host of Pod Save America, joins us on today's episode. And I'm just here to tell you it is an amazing episode where we discuss all of the MAGA fuckery. But each week on their podcast over at Pod Save America, former Obama aides Jon Favreau, Tommy Vitor, Jon Levitt and Dan Favor Pfeiffer deliver no takes on the news with just enough humor to keep us all sane. You'll hear an honest, in depth conversation with major voices in politics, media and culture. We have had three out of the four on the podcast on I've had it here. And we will not stop until we get the fourth. Dan Pfeiffer, we're coming for you. New episodes drop every Tuesday, Friday and Sunday. Watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. So we supposed to start the podcast.

[B]

Ready? 1, 2, 3.

[A]

Patriots, gay trio, they trio, black trio, Brown Trio. And the people that are mean to those people can do what?

[B]

Pumps.

[A]

That's right. Okay, listen, it's a big day. Finally. Okay, you guys have heard of Pod Save America and we've had two of the three hosts on. And we're finally our white whale. We're finally, we've finally got the one that was hard to get.

[C]

John Best for last.

[A]

Jon Favreau, welcome to I've had It.

[C]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

It's America's top DEI podcast.

[C]

Yeah, I know, I'm aware. I enjoy it very much.

[A]

We're all in New York City, listener. And so it was just like a last minute podcast. Democracy.

[C]

Yeah, Just, you know, good two hours from jfk.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Traffic.

[A]

Yeah, that sucks.

[C]

I live in Los Angeles. I gotta say, this city, the traffic is nothing in Los Angeles compared to this.

[A]

We took the subway here from my apartment. It was 11 minutes. 11 minutes.

[C]

Well, just wait till the free buses.

[A]

I know. Exactly. Exactly. All right, what we'd like to do is go around the table and everybody share what they've had it with. And I feel like yours are going to be political, so we're going to start with pumps first. We'll end with you. So, pumps, what have you had it with?

[B]

Not political.

[A]

Not political. John's can be political.

[B]

Okay. What I've had it with is when you go to a restaurant and they say it's family style, they want. It's like, I want my own food. If somebody else wants a bite, that's fine. But I don't want to have to share. I want to order what I want to order. I don't want everybody to have to agree, because when everybody has to agree, it takes forever. And it's just, why do we. Why are we insisting on family style for everything?

[A]

I think sharing is so overrated.

[B]

I hate sharing.

[C]

Democracy. Good for a government, bad for a restaurant.

[A]

What are your thoughts on that? Like, a family style John?

[C]

Like, if the. It just takes extra time, because then everyone is like, all right, what do we all want to share? And then someone doesn't want this. And then you're like, okay, well, you two want this and you three want that. It's just a lot of. It's a pain in the ass.

[B]

Makes it harder. It makes it take longer. I like to dine and dash, so that doesn't do well for me.

[A]

Okay. I don't know if mine is a grievance, but I've been dying to talk to somebody about this. I haven't told you yet, and I want to talk about it on the pod. So over Thanksgiving break, went home to Oklahoma City. Went to an Oklahoma City Thunder game. Having a great time. Our team is fucking awesome. Love them. So we're, like, sitting in the lower bowl. It's my husband, my two sons, and me. It's like family Bondorama, right? We're winning. Shay Gilligas, Alexander shooting threes. And then all of a sudden, this German guy on our team gets in a fight. What's his name? The German?

[B]

Oh, Hartenstein. Hartenstein.

[A]

He gets into a push match with Rudy Gobert. Rudy Gobert is from France. And about two rows behind us, a guy says, germany stopped you in World War II France. And I was sitting there for a second, and I, like, kind of. And I was like, okay, Hartenstein, Germany. Rudy Gobert. They call him the Eiffel Tower. Holy shit. This guy's a neo Nazi. So then I turn and look at my family, and I'm sitting on the end, and my son that's in law school goes, did you hear that? Mom's like, a fucking neo Nazi. And I'm like, oh, that's what I thought, but it was so shocking. And it took me a second to kind of process the whole thing. Like, does he know what he's talking about? I just need to discuss this with somebody. It was traumatizing to hear that reference.

[C]

I feel like taunts at sporting events, sometimes people dig, like, a little too deep.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, for the. Like, we're going back to. To history of wars between countries.

[A]

We're making Hartenstein be the Nazi.

[C]

Yeah, that's a tough one.

[A]

That was unfair.

[C]

I went to College of the Holy Cross in Worcester, Massachusetts, and we didn't have great sports teams, but when we. I remember we would. We were playing Harvard in football and our chant was God's on our side. And their chant was safety school for us, which was a fair chance. They won that one.

[A]

Right.

[C]

This is why it's not. You can't really get into trash talking.

[A]

I love trash talking at sports. It was just the kind of. It was so shocking to hear it. And I was like. And I still. And I was like, do you think the guy's a groy bird? Like, what do you think is going on? Because my son knows all about that kind of niche Internet culture because he's listens to Hasan Piker. So he knows all about that niche stuff. Like when. When I'm trying to figure stuff out about Internet culture that I don't know, I call my son and he's like, okay, here's the deal with the Grover's mom. And he explains it all to me. Explain to me what twitch was, you know, all these things.

[C]

But have you seen those. Those hats that are like back to back. World War champs for like the USA hats. Like, those are. I think that's kind of fun if it's in that spirit where we're just talking about old kind of rivalries.

[A]

When you mentioned Germany, particularly World War II, very specific. Those Germans were really fucked up. I mean, they really were bad.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And France did get their ass kicked.

[A]

But they did, they did, they did. I mean, just a bunch of post boys.

[C]

So it was accurate. Accurate trash talking, but kind of neo Nazi, little Nazi ish.

[A]

Little groiper esque.

[B]

Well, I mean, you were in Oklahoma, the heart of Maca country.

[A]

I was. I was. It was just. It was so shocking. And I've been wanting to tell you about it, but we were all just. And it's one of those things. You hear it, it takes a second.

[B]

Right. You digest it.

[C]

Germany. Oh, yeah, that was. Yeah, we. We know that. We remember that.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah.

[C]

A lot of other things happened as well.

[A]

I want to. Before we get to your grievance, I want to know about this. The school you went to, it's a.

[C]

Catholic school, so it's as Catholic as. It's Jesuit, but it's as Catholic as, like, Georgetown.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

It's Holy Cross. It makes everyone think.

[A]

Sounds really dramatic.

[C]

Much more religious. And I did. And I was raised Catholic But I do not go there because of that. I got, you know, it's close to home. I grew up just north of Boston, and I got a. Like, a half scholarship to go there. So it was that or BC Or Bowdoin.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And we went up to Bowdoin, which is in Maine in the middle of a snowstorm.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I was like, nah, can't do that. And that was it. That's how I made my decision. My son that's in law, Holy Cross gave me money. BC was cool, but, you know. Yeah, that was it.

[A]

My son that's in law school now, he did his undergrad at Newhouse at Syracuse.

[C]

Oh, yeah. Oh, my cousin went there.

[A]

Snow. He would FaceTime me, and it was like he was Jon Snow at the north wall. I mean, he would be walking across campus. It's unbelievable.

[C]

We drove there for her graduation, I remember, and it was. Yeah, that's up there.

[A]

Yeah, it really is. Okay. Jon Favreau, what have you had it with?

[C]

Well, speaking of Germany and Nazis, I know you've. You're. You're good friends with Stephen Miller as well.

[A]

Yeah. His wife's really mad at me.

[C]

I have had it with Stephen Miller and J.D. vance telling us that America is defined by blood and soil nationalism.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Which is what they have been doing lately. And I think we're all used to, you know, we've had 10 years of Donald Trump. He is a cult of personality. He is leaving the scene soon in 2028, and what comes next, I worry, is going to be much worse. And so far, the only movement in the party that has gained any traction is this. They call it national conservatism. But, you know, we just had that horrible shooting of the National. Two National Guard troops in D.C. and then, of course, the administration moved to close down migration from not just Afghanistan, but all kinds of other countries that they have deemed unworthy. And Stephen Miller tweeted during this, this isn't about something to the effect of. This isn't about when you import individuals, because when you. When you bring in people into this country, you're bringing in entire societies.

[A]

Yeah. Their culture.

[C]

Their culture.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And when you bring in entire societies of immigrants and their descendants, they bring with them the brokenness of their society and the. The terror of that society. Just like very blatantly saying that people from other countries and their children cannot ever assimilate and be part of America. And this is. Obviously, he has a direct line to Trump. He writes a lot of these Trump tweets, truths, whatever the fuck they are. JD Vance has also been giving speeches like this. I'm obsessed with a speech he gave at Claremont out in California this July where he talked about how America as an idea should not be what defines this country. And that just believing in the principles in the Declaration of Independence is both over inclusive and under inclusive. Over inclusive. Because that means if anyone around the world believes in the principles and the Declaration, then they can be American and under inclusive. Because if you don't believe in the principles in the Declaration, but your ancestors fought in the Civil War, meaning confederates.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Then you have just as right, you have a claim on this country more so than the people who believe that you don't have a claim on this country. And it didn't get a ton of attention. But like Miller Vance, these are like deeply radical, dangerous ideas. And I am just waiting for Democrats and hopefully a 20, 28 democratic contender to go at that argument head on, because I don't think we can just avoid it and just like do our thing where we talk about have to focus on the economy, have to focus on affordability, all that is correct. Have to focus on individual issues, a ton of issues that are important. But there is a bigger thing at stake here and that is what, how we define what this country is and who gets to be American. And I feel like that is at the heart of what we've been arguing about for the last 10 years. And certainly the people that want to succeed Trump want to continue on having that argument.

[B]

And they'll be more organized, they'll be smarter. They won't have the cult of personality, though. That's the only thing we can have.

[C]

Right. So electorally we might be better off because I think it's much more unpopular, but it's much more dangerous.

[A]

You bring up a really good point that I think Democrats struggle with and I call it assumption politics. They assume that people are going to do the right thing. They assume that people will see that J.D. vance has no Riz is a washed up, old failed drag queen who can't even stand up for his wife and kids. Stephen Miller's a, you know, short little twerp Nazi. His wife is just absolutely as despicable as he, in a very shocking turn of events, that they're both equally can out, you know, cruel each other.

[C]

She's got a very popular podcast, though.

[A]

But I think that your point that if they don't address it, if the Democrats don't address this head on, this cruelty and how they wrap it up in Christianity and call out the evangelical Spiritual warfare component of this that draws in the rubes all over red America. We, they assume that it's not going to get any traction. And this, this assumption, politics is at its worst. When you see what happened, we all saw January 6th. And if I would have asked you on January 7th, is Trump's political career over? You would have said 100% over. It's done. And the most important political appointment of our lifetime was Joe Biden appointing an attorney general. And he played integrity politics because he felt bad that Mitch McConnell dicked over Merrick Garland. And Merrick Garland is milk. We needed pit bull. We needed, I mean, just the meanest imaginable. I mean, just somebody that would walk into court and just be like, you, fuck you, you. I mean, just a shark. And he didn't appoint that because everybody assumes in the Democratic Party that people are going to do the right thing because they do the right thing. And the Trump administration even admits all the time, yeah, we're shocked about how easy this has been during the transition. They're like, yeah, they're totally working with us on everything. Yeah, it's just, that's the part about Democrats where they just, they assume the good in people. And I'm like, these people are fucked up.

[B]

They have no good, like really, really fucked up.

[A]

Need to be in padded cells and straight jackets when it comes to like J.D. vance and Stephen Miller. Stephen Miller, Patriots gay trio, they trio, black trio, brown trio. And all of the MAGA assholes can do what pops off. I'm Jennifer. I'm in New York City right now. I'm Angie.

[B]

I'm in Oklahoma City right now. But coming very soon, we're going to be together in none other than Atlanta, Georgia. Our very first live show was in Atlanta.

[A]

So January 31st, we reunite on stage at Center Stage in Atlanta. Please come join us. We are going to have a matinee because we've had it with things starting too late at night. So this will start at 2pm you can get all liquored up, go home and pass out. And guess what? You'll get so much sleep you won't even be hungover the next day and you're fighting for democracy.

[B]

Please join us. It's going to be so much fun. And as much as we're excited to see each other, we're excited to see you guys. Hope to see you there.

[A]

Click the link below in the show notes to get your tickets. We hope they sell out fast.

[B]

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[C]

You know, there's been sort of an interminable debate over the last several years about, like, we shouldn't be talking about democracy because democracy doesn't really mean anything to people. It's just like a sort of a vague concept. And we should talk about things that tangibly improve people's lives. And I get that. I know all the polling to an extent. I really agree with it. But part of the challenge is I think that we have all grown up and lived in a world in a country where we have not had to make an argument for democracy. Like a real full throat argument of like, why Is this system of government good for you? In the way that some of the polling is telling us we should talk about things that matter to people's lives, right? Like, okay, if we think democracy is important and we think that they're threatening democracy, that Donald Trump's been threatening democracy, then why is it a better system? And I don't think we've made. And why is that more American, according to the founding principles of this country than what they're offering?

[A]

Here's the thing. I think that that is so earnest that we have to make this argument to the American people. And I like it. In principle, it's not going to fucking work. We have to go full blown pit bull and really demonize the characters and the system of theirs. We need to go on attack and prove that they are screwed up. That's what the right has done. And that and where we are with the digital age and just how angry everybody is post Covid, the impatience that everybody has. I think the Democrats, instead of making this case, because the attention span of the average American is one Instagram slide, right? So it is ridiculing and piling on the biggest dorks imaginable. It is a layup. It is a layup to bring these people down and then after you get them hooked in, then, then you can get into more nuanced conversations. But to get the masses, and I think we need to go on full attack of them and then bring the arguments for our cause as a secondary thing.

[C]

I agree with that to an extent. I think you have to. People vote and to the extent they pay attention to politics, which most people in the country sadly do not, it is how does it affect my life? And I think now we have seen their system of government and their ideology in action. And I think instead of talking about vague concepts like democracy, you can talk about masked men in the streets, right, grabbing people, disappearing them, kidnapping them. And I think if you tell someone, so, like most people, they probably don't like Donald Trump in this country. Even the people who voted for him, a lot of them don't like him. Most people probably think Stephen Miller's a fucking twerp. The JD Vance has the charisma of, you know, my shoe. But they don't necessarily. Like if you went off and started saying, well, he's an asshole and he's a fascist and this people, a normal person who doesn't pay much attention to politics would say, well, why, like, why do, why do you not like him?

[A]

And then you be like, what the next argument is so we lived in Oklahoma city for I'm 51. So for 50 years, just recently moved to New York City. And the argument that Democrats have failed to make is, number one, they abandoned a 50 state strategy. So place like Oklahoma become more radical and more horrific. But if you look at the data of what red state super majorities get you, when we had a governor in 2011 named Brad Henry, who's a Democrat, our education system was 17th in the country. We are now 50th, and we had a superintendent Ryan Walters, who sits and talks about trans. So if you say not only are these people horrible people, but Republican super majorities have harmed you and furthermore, Republicans are liars, they've lied to you. And do you remember when Trump said the Democrats have taken the black vote for granted? There was a little bit of truth to that, a lot of truth to that. What's even more true is the Republican Party has taken the working class, working class and rural voters vote for granted. So horrifically in the data shows all of that. If you go from Oklahoma, Texas and just swing all the way through the Bible Belt, those are the bottom 10 states. And now Oklahoma is 50th in education. This is a Republican super majority. So anybody in Oklahoma, if you don't like your life, the people you blame are the Republicans. They've had everything. We're the worst state, number one, worst state for women to live worse. And there's more, you know, by a percentage more women voters than male. And so those are the arguments I think we make. First off is attacking their policy and attacking the personalities behind the policy.

[C]

Totally agree with that.

[A]

But we go attack versus here. Here's what we're going to teach you about the world.

[C]

No, I definitely don't think we should teach people anything about the world or politics. No one is interested in being educated about politics right now. They barely have any time. But I do think it is to that example, like, has your life really improved under Republican rule? Total Republican rule for the last several years. It's fine if you still want to be a Republican, but wouldn't you like to try something new?

[A]

Right.

[C]

Wouldn't you like to maybe have a government that actually fights for you, does something for you and actually delivers for you? Right now I think the challenge is that most people have gotten so used to neither Republicans nor Democrats doing anything that has improved their lives that they sometimes default to Republicans because Republicans were like, okay, well, yeah, maybe you know that we're kind of lying when we're going to tell you that we're going to make you richer, but we're going to hurt those other people that are hurting you.

[B]

The cruelty.

[A]

Well, and the, the democrats abandoning a 50 state strategy has allowed Republican propaganda to penetrate in a very cult like religious way. So in Oklahoma and all through the Bible Belt south, people believe in spiritual warfare as being very real, a real thing like devils and angels. I was an atheist, grew up an atheist in the Bible Belt. So I have a very kind of clear eyed perspective about. Because all of my friends were these crazy Bible thumpers. And the way the Republican Party uses language about good versus evil, it very much mirrors that evangelical Christianity. And in rural towns, the only sense of culture they have or any sort of socializing is in their church. It's where they go to bingo, they go to dances and in these churches. I remember growing up John in Oklahoma City and George W. Bush was running the dumb one and that on the, on the marquee outside the church would say, vote for George Bush today. And it's everywhere. And so they have demonized Democrats to such a point that so many people are willing to vote for a Republican even if they think that person is a piece of shit. Like, you know, remember when Trump famously endorsed Roy Moore the first time we knew he didn't have a problem with pedophiles. You remember that?

[C]

I do remember in Alabama.

[A]

That was wild. Right.

[C]

Doug Jones won.

[A]

That was our first. So many people will just go ahead and vote for that. And so the Democrats have got to go back in and have. Even though we still have the stupid electoral College. I think abandoning a 50 state strategy has really harmed the Democratic Party for sure.

[C]

I remember Obama used to talk about this when he was a senator in Illinois, state senator too. And he said, I would travel to southern Illinois, which gets pretty southern.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And, and, and then later when he would go to Iowa and he would meet, you know, more conservative voters in person and they would say, oh, you're, you're totally different than the caricature of you totally on Fox News. Because back in the day it was just Fox. And the challenge now is like most Democratic politicians don't have the opportunity to go visit people in all of these states in all of these areas because politics is nationalized because the Democratic Party in Oklahoma and other places, to your point about the 50 state strategy is non existent in a lot of places. And so they never get visits from Democratic politicians. They don't see Democrats in real life and realize that we're just people like them who want similar things that they do and so you have this view of the other party is a bunch of demons, because that's what you're taught in church.

[A]

They do believe it.

[C]

And that's what I think we have to figure out. Right, is how do you pierce the caricature that the MAGA tries to paint of us? And I think that's challenging because here's.

[A]

What I think we do. We use. Andy Brashear did this very brilliantly in Kentucky. He uses religion. And this is another failure. I think the Democratic Party has done all the Heritage foundation, all of these crazy white nationalist groups far. They go way further back than Trump, like back to Reagan. And these guys have been prepping and grooming and, you know, machinating for a long time. And I think that you have to go and use your religion. We need, like, good Christian politicians. It's nauseating for me personally when, when politicians talk about religion, whether they're Muslim, whether they're Jewish, whether they're Christian enough, I don't want to hear it. But we live in a very religious country. And so I think you have to have these choir boys or choir girls like Andy Bershear go in. Or Tellarico. Yeah, the porn, which I kind of like that.

[B]

I kind of dug it.

[A]

Yeah, I was kind of into it. But anyway, poor guy. I know, he's so nice.

[C]

Just people following him on Instagram, he's being nice. He's saying, he's accepting the follow. It's okay.

[A]

I know she's hot. I mean, he's a guy. But anyway, I think that if you can go. Because my point is Republicans brought religion into politics and the Democrats have never responded to it. We said, oh, we're secular. It's, you know, we're not going to attack people's faith. And they need to use this form of Christianity and say, this doesn't seem very Christlike to me. This doesn't seem very Jesusy to me to really get them to critically think a touch. And when you see Talarico do that and when you see Brashear do that, it has an impact. And neither one has had to throw trans people under the bus. In fact, Andy Brashear refused to do so. And Kentucky is every bit as ass backward as Oklahoma. And he's got two terms. And I think there's something to that, to addressing the, you know, elephant in the room head on these. They have weaponized your faith against you and taken your vote for granted. And I think Democrats need to start speaking very plain spoken to them about the lies, the manipulation and the exploitation by the Republican Party to all of these working class Americans because it is so devastating. What is happening to people's lives in red states under Republican super majorities is devastating. We have friends in Oklahoma that have a trans child and now they're refugees going to blue states. Every gay person I know that's under the age of 30 in Oklahoma is moving because they've been bullied by their parents, they've been bullied by their churches. Now they're being bullied by their governments, their schools. It's institutionalized and it's just really harming people. The cruelty of Republican super majorities has got to be exposed. And I think we need Christian people to come out and do it because nobody's going to think I have any credibility regarding it. An atheist.

[C]

I mean, I was, I was raised Catholic in a suburb of Boston. And we weren't an especially religious family. We go to church. You know, I did, you know, ccd. I was confirmed. We went to Mass on like, you know, Christmas and Easter, that kind of family. And then when I went to Holy Cross, Holy Cross is Jesuit. And the Jesuits are like the real lefty Catholics, like social justice, liberation theology. These are like the South American sort of like lefty movements. This is where the Jesuits come from. Pope Francis was Jesuit. And my political sort of awakening, like my parents were Democrats. I was like a Democrat growing up, but I didn't really know why. But my political awakening was because of the Jesuits of Holy Cross who believed that you go out into the community and you do good works and that Jesus was someone who was always caring about the least of these and the stranger and feeding the hungry. And if someone needed something, you never turned them away. And when you think about whether you're religious or not, the core of every major religion has some version of the Golden Rule. It is in, you got the New Testament, it's in Islam, it's Buddhism, Judaism. You can go through all the major religions and it is somewhere there, there, which tells you that it's almost independent of any specific religion. And then it can also be humanist, like people who are atheists, people who are agnostic can still believe that. And I do think that having some kind of organizing moral principle, whether you are part of organized religion, whether you're not, whether you're just spiritual, whether you're not is really important. And I think what you're talking about with Democrats is like, we're very good at talking about policy, we're good at talking about politics, but like, we don't talk as much about morality and values. And we like to. We like to say that, and I think, rightly so, that Republicans are hypocritical about it, and they are. But that leaves open the question, well, then, what do you believe? How do you think people should be treated?

[A]

Right?

[C]

And I think that's an important part of it.

[A]

Really, really important. And I think it's good to note here because we've noticed. Like, I remember we went. We were in New York. No, we were in Oklahoma City and interviewed Kathy Hochul via Zoom for our podcast. We thought we were hot ship. We're doing it. You know, we're baby podcasters. And the governor of New York is on. And then if, like a week later we came up here, we were talking to some people. They're like, well, who have you had on lately? And we were like, we had on Governor Kathy Hochul. And these New Yorkers were like, oh, she sucks. And I looked at Pops, and I go, what a fucking luxury, right? What a luxury to be a liberal in a blue state and be irritated with your Democratic governor. And I think there is a disconnect in the people and the. The Democratic Party that do the focus groups and that do the polling, and they don't understand the. The components of America that are disconnected from large cities. And Oklahoma City is a city of a million people. And demographically, it broke down exactly the way the nation did. Oklahoma City is perfectly purple. And I think it went like, 49, Trump. 48, Kamala. So it's like a microcosm of the electorate at large. So I have a ton of progressive friends in Oklahoma. I have some, you know, Bible thumper friends that are, you know, kind of arm's length. But I understand how somebody can be so rational about so many things, like a physician. You can talk to them, and they're rational, rational, rational, rational. And then, like, evolution comes up and like, well, no, I totally believe in creation. You're like, how are you a physician? Like, how is it possible that evolution is the bedrock of biology? And you graduated from medical school? And it's like something snaps in them. And the indoctrination in these mega churches and that kind of nouveau Christianity culture has been so rapid, and it has grown in tandem with the Republican movement, and it has metastasized into this MAGA culture. And I think a lot of these people fall prey to the cult so easily because Donald Trump is exactly like a mega church pastor. He's, you know, slapping his secretary on the ass. He's a grifter he's putting on a show, has the hair. It just reminds me. He reminds me so much. And so I can see why they feel so comfortable with that abuser, because the abuser that they've had previously in their life are their pastors.

[C]

Well, and it's also people. I think it's like a fundamental human longing to belong, to be part of a community, to be part of something. And so when it's people, when it's your neighbors, your family that you've been around, you want to be part of that. And you. It's. I think it's hard if you're raised that way to then be like, oh, everything that I have known and grown up with and been taught is completely wrong and bad. That seems. It's much easier to say, no, no. The people who are telling me that they're the bad ones, they're crazy. So I do think it's like, really, it's difficult. I mean, like, we. We can say like, oh, you're not rational. They think we're not rational.

[A]

Right. So then your story.

[B]

Okay, so I raised super evangelical. And so I was approaching a family member who would tell you that they believe every single bit of the Bible is true, word for word. They believe Jesus helped the sick, fed the poor, did all the things. Then I said, then how do you feel about. It was around the alligator Alcatraz where everybody's wearing merch and snakes and alligators. And I said, so what do you think Jesus would do about, you know, people just being sent to these places where they can be eaten by alligators? Oh, I think he'd be all for. Was so shocking.

[C]

Show me where is that was like, you know, show me where in the.

[A]

New Testament there's a Republican movement now in tandem with this, where now it is the anti empathy movement.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Have you seen this? Because they know that Jesus is a problem.

[C]

Elon Musk has been. I first heard him say that that empathy was really dangerous, but it really is toxic empathy. Toxic empathy, yeah. They're very mad at this pope. They didn't like the last pope. This pope is now. They don't like this pope either.

[A]

And because I'm hoping this thing is a problem. He's a radical, compassionate empath. And when you hear for me, like when I heard hear Bernie Sanders speak, the atheist Jew, he sounds more. I mean, he's cranky as I'll get. But what he's messaging seems more Christlike than all of the Christians that I grew up around in Oklahoma City because their lack of empathy towards poor people. And that is something they have messaged to demonize the poor. And it is a part of their core values.

[C]

And it's interesting because I feel like old Republicans, the previous iteration of the Republican Party, it would be, you know what, it's awful that there are poor people and we should have charity. We should give compassionate conservative compassion, conservatism. And also, like, of course we want to help everyone. You can't help everyone all the time.

[A]

Let's prioritize it.

[C]

Right? Yeah. Someone's like that, but like life. So it's a little like, yes, this is a bad thing and we want to help, but we just. We can't get around to it kind of thing.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And we don't want to pay more taxes. Right. And we don't trust government to fix it. Right. So, fine, I disagree with all that. But it's like an argument now. It is. They are undeserving.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And they are undeserving because it is something in their culture, if they're an immigrant or it is, you know, it is learned behavior. And it is whatever excuses they come up with to try to convince themselves that what they are doing, the neglect and the cruelty, is warranted because these people aren't Jesus is a problem for them.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

And so is the Declaration. Right, Right. Like the whole. Like, we believe all everyone's created equal.

[B]

We don't.

[C]

Endowed with inalienable rights, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Like, this is a problem for J.D. vance and for the guy from Missouri, the senator there, Schmidt, Eric Schmidt, he gave a big speech on this for Stephen Miller. And I think that is a. I mean, there's a bright spot there for Democrats, which is like, if the other party sees the Declaration of Independence and Jesus as an obstacle to their political agenda, maybe. Maybe we have a case to make. Maybe. I don't know. Someone's gonna make it, though.

[A]

Yes. On top of the fact that these people are so unmarketable. I mean, just because I think what we're seeing now with Trump is the curtains are closing. He's a lame duck. The dementia is objectively true.

[C]

Well, he's definitely sleepy. Yeah, he's very tired. Sleepy. Don. Yeah.

[A]

And so, I mean, biology is going to catch up to him, or 2028 is going to catch up to him. There's several concerns I have with that. Number one, I think they've committed so many crimes, so many crimes that they are going to do something really dramatic and radical to prevent midterms and. Or 20, 28 because look at what they did in on January 6th. And I just don't believe anything coming out of this administration. Nothing. I don't think you can. I don't think any document that comes out, I think every single document that comes out, you should question the veracity in them for sure. So that's a problem. But as he is, as the cult starts to fall apart, you see all of these fissures forming and you see the Heritage foundation and Tucker Carlson making room for a larger tent with Nick Fuentes and Katie Miller. I'm sure you saw. She, she mentioned me on cnn. She's really mad at me. But Abby Phillips asked her the question about should Tucker Carlson be platforming Nick Fuentes? And my, if I would have been on that night, I would have said, my problem is. I'm shocked that you're shocked, Abby. Of course Tucker Carlson is platforming Nick Fuentes. Donald Trump dined with Nick Fuentes. That everybody is welcome. The only problem with Nick Fuentes for the hard right Zionists in that party that have, for somehow they think they're gonna get safety in the right wing, the Zionists, is that he hates all the same people they hate. So like, great, great, great, great, great. But then he also hates the Jews. So that's their problem with Nick Fuentes. And so Tucker has a major problem with Israel as well. So to me, that's like a match made in heaven because then he's on Piers Morgan calling gay people the f slur.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You know, I mean, these people, it's not that they are entertaining Nick Fuentes's base. And I'm shocked that the mainstream media is shocked at that.

[C]

And it's a political necessity for them too, to keep the coalition together. Manhattan Institute just did a poll. I just saw them tweet out results today of just like the Republican coalition. And they basically classify like 60, 65% of the coalition as sort of Republicans who voted for Trump, but also voted for Republicans back as far as like 2012. And then they have around 30% are like the new entrants to the party. And those that 30% happens to be much more anti Semitic, openly racist. And crucially, that segment of the party is also not certain that they will vote for Republican in 26 or 28, because what they want is they're attached to Trump and they're attached to the Trumpy part of the party, but they are not attached to the Republican Party party. And they want someone like a Stephen Miller or even worse, a Nick Fuentes. Right. And so if you are someone like J.D. vance or Marco Rubio or any of them, you're looking at the numbers in your coalition and thinking, whether I believe it or not, like, how am I going to win without at least being open to these people in the party? And that's why it's so very dangerous.

[B]

We know JDB Vance will whore himself. I mean, he's changed his name three fucking times as an adult. Religion's three times pro immigrant, anti immigrant, Trump's, America's, Hitler's, now he's his vice president. He doesn't give a fuck.

[A]

JD Vance is a prostitute. He is, he is a total prostitute.

[C]

I've had this conversation with a friend recently which like, does J.D. vance really believe this is this version of J.D. vance where he has landed, or does he do it? Yeah, but I think I at least hold open the possibility that he has been radicalized and that is not to like, just take away his agency. Like, it's still, still bad either way. But I think that when I think it's hard to wake up every morning and say, like, oh, I believe these evil, terrible things today and I'm excited to go do them, like, I think that J.D. vance over the last several years has made a number of justifications to himself for what he believes and is intellectual enough that he has now looked for the intellectual justification for all this stuff, which is why, you know, some of these people are just, it's just like gut instinct, racism, anti Semitism. JD Vance is like seeking out the Curtis Yarvins, the Peter Thiels, like the scholarship around why democracy is unfortunate and why we should have post liberal societies because liberalism is bad, small L liberalism. And I think he has, has somehow intellectualized himself that actually this is the right, this is the right way to go.

[A]

I think we talk about this all the time. I think not only J.D. vance and he's probably, because he's smart and he has probably intellectualized it, but everybody in Trump's orbit, from somebody who sits right next to him, whether it's Howard Netlik or any of those people, to people that we know personally in our personal lives. When you voted for him once, something maybe kind of broke a little bit. You heard the grunt by the pussy tape, blah, blah, blah, you voted for him. The second time, I think these people broke a little bit more. And then the third time, I think it has created this mass brokenness of the electorate from people right in the Oval all the way down to your neighbor next door. And each time you capitulate to this moral depravity and the cruelty that is always on display. It has really broken so many parts of our culture. Now the Republican Party had primed the soil and set the psychological soil for a lot of people to fall prey to that. But there is just something about the triple trumping. I think that when you triple down on that, it has broken from JD Vance all the way down to your crazy uncle.

[C]

I always remember this anecdote from, I think Sarah Longwell in one of her focus groups heard this, but it was a person who hadn't voted for Trump and was thinking of voting for Trump in 24. And the moderator asked, well, so like what's the deal? He's like, well, I can't stand him. I think he's, I think he says horrible things. But you know what, if I vote for him, I'll just turn off the tv, I won't pay attention and I'll just sit back and enjoy the Trump economy for four years.

[B]

Right, right.

[C]

So there is a little like. Cuz I don't think the actual base of people who are believers and who like this has grown over the last three elections.

[A]

I think it's probably even shrunk some.

[C]

I think that's right and I think.

[A]

That'S something, whoever the heir apparent is has to deal with that. Trump got people to the polls like Obama got people to the polls. He got first time voters in rural America that never showed up to vote and he had the reverse Obama effect. Obama had people show up, up that had never voted before and Trump had the same thing on the opposite end of the spectrum. So that's something. But I agree that I think the cult's probably smaller. But there is something outside of the cult that we have to talk about and it's the country club Republican and these are the people that, you know, when we lived in Oklahoma that we hung out with. These are white upper middle class, upper class people that know better. And in certain social circles, like if they were up here for the week weekend and we all went to dinner and there were some other personalities they would never admit, they would say they were moderates and they would say that, you know, oh, we voted for a gay politician before and we voted for black politicians before. We're very moderate, you know, but these people, and I was a high end interior designer, still am and have been for a long time. I'd go out to drinks with some of my clients sometimes and then the Foxification came out after a couple drinks. They don't believe in climate Change. They thought Obama was a Muslim and they think Trump is. I don't, you know, I don't agree with the way he says it, but he says exactly how I feel and it comes out. So there is like active Trumpism that is the cult, but there is a passive Trumpism in white circles that exists in America that country club Republicans adhere to. But they're smart enough in certain social circles, they don't admit it because they know how depraved it is. And that to me is even more insidious than the cultists for sure.

[C]

And I encounter these people and I think, because a lot of them, you know, it's through social circles, you know, family, friends, family, family. And they'll know what I do. And so they'll say, oh, you worked for Obama. He, he gave some good speeches, he spoke well. And when they start that way, I'm like, oh, this is, I'm talking to the wrong person right now. And I don't get into it with people because it's like, you're not going to like yell at someone and have a debate, but you can always tell it is that, like, you can always tell. I'm going to be very polite, nice and everything, but like, you know, these, this, this, these liberals, they're, they're, they're the devil.

[A]

Another thing you said you've had it with is tech oligarchs who told us that social media would usher in a global utopia. And now calling anyone's who wants to regulate AI the Antichrist. And that is my absolute favorite thing about Peter Thiel, that he's a billionaire, but as a side hustle, he gives lectures on the Antichrist.

[C]

Yeah, literally, people, crazy people who are just thinking that maybe we should take a look at this humanity transforming technology, artificial intelligence, and perhaps put some rules in place, some regulations. He thinks that they are the, he said they're the legionnaires of the Antichrist.

[B]

He also said the Pope was the Antichrist the other day.

[C]

Yeah, he's very. But these fucking tech guys, like we just went through this where they made all these big promises. They have left all kinds of damage in their wake. Oh yeah, and whether it's like mental health, problems with young people, loneliness, epidemic, like political violence, all of it.

[A]

Russian trolls, Russian trolls propagandizing.

[C]

And now, now AI is an even more powerful technology. And they are just telling. First of all, it's like a handful of people, the richest people in the world, they are now all friends of Donald Trump, hanging out at the White House when they had the Saudis for state dinner. They were all taking pictures. Elon Musk and Sam Altman, all the rest of them, they're all having a great time. They're getting anything that they want. And they are even saying now, at least in the last time around, they were like, oh, it's going to be great. It's going to be. Elon Musk is like, yeah, at some point, humans won't need to do jobs. There'll be nothing for humans to do. Bill Gates said, oh, I think that eventually you won't need humans. Even the guy that is the CEO of Anthropic, one of the AI companies was like, estimate maybe half of entry level jobs will go away way. So that's on the job front. They're building these data centers which are making electricity costs go up. They're also just like building them all. I mean, Sam Altman was like, yeah, I think at some point the data centers will cover the globe. So that's happening. They also believe that potentially AI could develop a bioweapon or some kind of weapon of mass destruction. So there's the whole kill us all scenario. And they know all the people that are developing this technology know all this talk about all this, and yet they are full speed ahead. They don't want anyone to stop them. They've got a president who doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about with AI he calls it like the AI, you know, he has no idea, no idea what he's talking about. But they can do whatever they want.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And they're gonna get rich from it. And the rest of the country, the rest of the world, if there's some kind of weapon to mass destruction or Hell's Unleashed, or even if it's a better scenario where it's just half the planet unemployed, they're going to be fine. They'll build their bunkers. But what are the rest of us going to do?

[A]

Think about it. J.D. vance still, the immigrants are taking your job. Stephen Miller. We're going to deport a bunch of people so you don't have to wait in line in the er. It was never immigrants taking jobs. It's always going to be the oligarchs and their robots. That was the plan all along. And these guys are such prostitutes. They kicked off Donald Trump, rightfully so, from all of their platforms. And I had. I was on Kara Swisher's podcast a week ago or so, and she said, you know, these guys, if Kamala would have won, they would have been. They Them and had pronouns. They just follow whatever. There's no principle. And that's what I think is so upsetting. And we can, we can talk about this kind of goes back to what the Democrats attacking Republicans. We can talk about about the oligarchs and you know, how unlikable Peter Thiel is, how I'm absolutely deranged and demented. Elon Musk is jizzing all over all these petri dishes, having all these kids that he's not raising, partnering with the family, doing Sig Heils, all this shit. But we. And that's fun to do because I love to shit talk. But it's also the system and we have to address the system of unregulated capitalism. I think Democrats need to address Republicans in different, a very good job labeling regulations as harmful to people's pocketbook. And we have to get rid of that label and start calling them consumer protections. And explain how these corporations like the Sackler family and the opioid epidemic, my husband's in recovery from that. Pumps is in recovery from that. My nephew's in recovery from that. It was, it just raped and pillaged so many lives, so many, many fabulous people got addicted to drugs because they went to the doctor and they had pain and they end up, you know, dead or with these horrible addictions. And then the economic spin off from that. And the Democrats need to do a better job addressing that because that has gone unaddressed for a very long time. You can have a conversation with any of these country club Republicans I'm talking about, well, you know, the Democrats and all those regulations, you know, just help gets, just prevent our bottom line. I can't hire people. And it's just, just ubiquitous in the country club Republican crowd. And I think we need to do a better job messaging how important consumer protections are. And I think with this AI stuff Karis Wisher was telling me about these kids that have like committed suicide because they have relationships with the, with the AI chatbot.

[C]

And that's, and that that's the terrifying. That's the, the worst case scenario for kids. And. But like the better case scenario is that their AI chatbot is their friend, which means that they're not meeting other friends, connecting and the other. And what's worse about the AI chatbots versus social media even is they are obsequious, they flatter you, they tell you everything you want. They take away the friction in life. So it's all pleasure, no pain. And all you get as a kid is like someone's telling you, you're great. They're giving you all the information you need. They're giving you everything you think you need, but everything except real human connection. And so it's like, once again, a technology like social media was. Was sold as. This is going to connect people and bring people closer together. But what it gave us was the illusion of connection.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And it didn't actually. And now we have a bunch of people who feel disconnected, divided, and lonelier. And I do think that this is an issue. Yes, Democrats should talk about it. And this is an issue where you can win over some folks who are more conservative. Because I think that these big. I think that, like, there is an opening for someone in 28, and I think that we'll see Republican candidates do this too. Someone will like, someone out of the blue, like a Marjorie Taylor Greener type, you know, run against the AI companies and the tech overlords because there are privacy concerns, there are loneliness concerns, There are, like, sort of spiritual emptiness concerns.

[A]

It.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Red people, blue people, moderate people, apolitical people. You feel. If you've spent too much time on Instagram or on TikTok, you feel it. You feel it like a hangover, you know, like, oh, God, this isn't good.

[C]

Yep. And you. And. And you have to talk about a country where we actually have community again, where we're actually making connections, being together, like, forging friendships and relationships that are more than, like, sitting on our phone all day.

[A]

Marjorie Taylor Greene ends up outflanking the Democratic Party on this issue because she's already. She's already cut out on Israel and she's a total anti Semite, and it pisses me off because she's out flanking and she's messaging very well, very simple things, because she's hanging out with Steve Bannon, who is a maniacal evil genius when it comes to political strategy.

[C]

Yeah. And he gets this and this eat.

[A]

The rich things, this sentiment that is now consuming both left wing politics, moderate politics, and right wing politics. We all feel like Trump's, like, affordability is a scam. Nobody knows what groceries are. So he's so.

[C]

Next clip, he's like, and I'm building an arch, and I'm building the ballroom.

[A]

I just had to fire my arch.

[C]

Getting the big version of the arch. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And so I think that his. The juxtaposition of his overt capitalism and the gold. And it's so like 1980s, you know, cocaine high.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Mixed with, like, palace of Versailles.

[A]

Total, like, bad taste. Really cheap. Okay. All right, John we have to play our game.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Had it or hit it.

[C]

Oh, great.

[B]

All right.

[A]

And I also. I want to. I have a Mary Kill for you at the end of this episode.

[B]

Okay, good. I love Fat Mary Kill.

[A]

Okay. Oh, my God. Welcome to Pat it or hit it. I would hit it. Had it. I hit it every day. Sometimes 12, twice a day. Had it or hit it. Gretchen Whitmer.

[C]

I have to say, there was a Politico story today. I'm gonna say had it.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Because. And I like her personally. I think she's been a great, fantastic governor of Michigan as a potential 28 candidate. I'm gonna say had it because there's this Politico story today about how she's Trump's favorite potential 2028 contender. And we all know the story of when she went to the Oval Office. Yeah, and she has the. Yeah, right. She has the folder up. So apparently, there's an interesting detail in the story where she comes back to the White House for another visit, and some White House staffer showed her a newspaper with the picture of her with the folder, and she signed it for Trump as a present. And that White House staff, two White House officials, also said, yes, she's the only one who has never said anything negative to Trump to his face, to the boss, to his face. And it's like, look, I get that you, as a governor, you want to make sure that the people of your state are not hurt by the federal government when you have, like, an authoritarian regime trying to, like, threaten states. Right? So I get that Mamdani goes to the White House and, you know, he didn't sit there and, like, scream at Donald Trump. He also didn't suck up to him. He, like, it's a tough balance. So I get that the balance is difficult, but I think that Whitmer and I think there's some other 28 contenders like this, too, are sort of the ones who are like, using this time to just lay low and not ruffle any feathers and not really criticize Trump that much and just assume that once the primary gets going in 27, then they'll start talking and they're not fighting. Now, I just. I don't have a lot of patience for that, because I think, like, you've got to be out there and you've got to be not just fighting Trump, because I think that's important, but also looking beyond Trump and talking about, like, a vision for the country, also the vision that J.D. vance and Steven Miller, the rest of them, want to continue after Trump and talk about the choice and be out there. And I just think that. And if. Now, if she decides not to run for president. Great. Sorry. Fine. You were a great governor. But like the 28 contender. If you're thinking of running in 2028, you should be out there now.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

100.

[A]

I totally agree.

[B]

You've got Pritzker, Gavin Newsom. You're just out there a little bit.

[A]

Andy.

[B]

Andy.

[A]

I was never in Oklahoma City. And I was like, andy. It's Andy. Don't call him Randy.

[B]

And I called him Randy.

[A]

She was like, so great to see you.

[C]

I was calling him Steve for a while because I forgot that his dad was governor.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I was like, oh, yeah, Andy Beshear. Didn't he do the Medicaid expansion when we were in the White House for Obama? And they're like, no, that was his dad. I was like, oh, wow. Wow. Bashir is everywhere.

[A]

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[A]

Okay. Had it or hit it Ms. Rachel?

[C]

Hit it for sure. I love Ms. Rachel. I think she's an angel. I think she's one of the kindest people we have in public life. I got really angry this week because the anti Semitism website, which is like I hate that it's even named that because it's not about antisemitism. It's just like a right wing slop started attacking. They had like the contenders for anti semite of the year and they have like Tucker Carlson and then Ms. Rachel right next to Tucker Carlson and they didn't even have Nick Fuentes on. No one was mad. He was mad. They're like, well he's like a, I guess he's like a hall of famer so they don't have to put him on every year. But I was like, Ms. Rachel, all she has done is stand up and preach love and dignity and safety for all children everywhere, regardless of race, religion, nationality, wherever you may be. She is just a kind person who is trying to teach our kids to be kind human beings. And now you're calling her an anti Semite. Unfucking believable. She's great. I love Ms. Rachel.

[A]

I love her. And I think this is something that the Democrats are going to have to address too because the base has evolved so much on this. This like I'm going to tell you, a couple of years ago, I didn't really quite know what a Zionist was. I when you live in a red state, you're very focused on the erosion of civil liberties with the red state government. And so you don't really, your mind doesn't wander to foreign policy very much. And I remember we went to the DNC pumps and me, we're so excited. It's a big deal. Right. And so we would go every day diligently and who were we going to interview? And it was, we had the best time. It was very surreal to do it. We'd walk through the protesters that were protesting and then would walk back out. And I remember thinking, God, they should really be, you know, why are they doing this? And I see, I was slightly kind of irritated by it, but everybody was polite, peacefully protesting. And since then, you know, you see the imagery coming out of Gaza and you see what Benjamin Netanyahu's government has done and you cannot look away. And you, because we've all studied World War II and you know, what were the people doing? Why didn't anybody help? Why didn't anybody say anything? And you have those moments where you realize, oh, this is that moment. And I just, I think it's interesting, I read in the news before we came here that Hillary Clinton was, she's on some, some place today.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Speaking about this issue, saying that the problem is tick tock. And then you have, I think of fellow co worker of yours during the Obama administration talking about how difficult it is to address the issue through a wall of dead children. And there's just such a moral disconnect. And at the same time, this weaponization of anti Semitism, like in me even saying this right now, some people are going to hear it and say, oh, Jennifer is an anti Semite. Nothing could be further from the truth with that because I connect all human rights together, you know, homophobia, Islamophobia, antisemitism, sexism, etc. And so I just think there's a lot of weaponization of that going on right now. And I'm very terrified that a grifter like Marjorie Taylor Greene or Tucker Carlson is going to use a very simple, tribal, like, message. We have to quit sending them money because they get free health care and they have free college. That's going to really hit hard. Yeah, in America, that kind of messaging hits really hard. It's attached on their end with a lot of real anti. Semitism is the core of that. Because I would be like, marjorie, okay, now do trans kids. All right, now, do you know gay marriage? She wouldn't be able to do it. I mean, the other day she was just tweeting about, like, arresting Fouchy. I mean, she's still every bit of crazy. So I'm just. I'm really worried about the Democrats not leading with this and not having moral clarity on this. This.

[C]

This goes back to what I was saying about needing a moral core to our progressivism, liberalism, whatever you want to call it these days, which is, like, It's a simple question. Do you believe that the life of an Israeli child is worth. Is. Is. Is as valuable as the life of a Palestinian child? Is as valuable as the life of a Ukrainian child, as a Russian child, as a Sudanese child? Right. Like, there are this horrible slaughter going on all over the world. There are powerful people oppressing lesser powerful people. There are people who want to set up, instead of democratic governments, authoritarian regimes where they oppress people and harm them. And the question is, what do you believe? Because if you believe in the dignity of every human being and every child, then that would lead you to say that October 7th was, like, sickening beyond belief. And, like, I remember when that happened, and, you know, I'm a father now, and was like, it's like, the worst things you can ever do to someone. And it made me sick, as, when I saw what happened in Gaza in the subsequent two years, made me sick, as I do when I see images from Ukraine. As we're all, you know, Trump's talking about Putin and, like, hey, let's bring him into the fold, and we can all do economic deals together. And. And J.D. vance telling Zelensky, like, you should thank us more. And it's like, there's, like, missing 10,000 Ukrainian children. It's like, where are your values? And are they universal? And can you apply your principles and values no matter what the situation is as opposed to just where it feels right. And then you have a different value set somewhere else when it's another conflict. So I completely agree with that.

[A]

Do you think Democrats, Democratic politicians that take APAC money are going to face an uphill battle? Do you think they're in touch with how much the base has moved on this and how much more educated the base is on this now?

[C]

I don't think a lot of them are. I don't think a lot of them understand it, but they should, they should get it. And it's also, it's like, look, foreign aid is always tough. It's always been a tough. You pull foreign aid for decades and no one, everyone thinks we give more foreign aid than we actually do. They don't love it. But foreign aid to a country like Israel that is very rich, very powerful, has a great military, like a very strong military. Well, and, and led by a war criminal and has an authoritarian regime. So it's like at some point you look around the world and you're like, okay, what? Maybe if we're going to give foreign aid and we're going to tell the American people, hey, we want to give some of your tax dollars to foreign aid, perhaps it should be to defend our allies and we've done that with Israel in the past and to help people who are like, starving and sick and in war torn countries throughout the world. But like, does the Israeli military really need US Dollars at this point? Maybe they did. Maybe they did a couple decades ago.

[A]

Do we want to give it to Benjamin Netanyahu when He gave, gave AIPAC gave over $200 million to Trump. They wanted him to win. They did not prefer Kamala. And then they also control our opposition. Hakeem and Chuckles, you know, they will not have moral clarity on this issue. They would not. I went to the Zoran Mamdani victory party in New York. It was so cool. John. It's right after I made.

[C]

I saw you and Hasan. I saw the picture. It looked great there. It was so much fun.

[A]

I had the best time, right? And I'm standing there and I thought, what a miss, what a miss that Hakeem and Chuckles are not there wild, hand in hand, riding the coat house of this affordability message of universal human rights. And it's because of their support for Israel. Who doesn't want Democrats to win. Israel does not want Democrats to win.

[C]

Now, Bibi Nagar, who punked us when Obama was in the White House so many times, goes to Congress to speak to our Congress without An invite from Barack Obama. That's before he got really bad.

[A]

Right.

[C]

He's never cared about, he cares about himself. He's literally in it for himself. He's just trying to stay out of jail. And to do that, he's kept this war and these atrocities going.

[A]

Yeah. And a lot of people say that he funded hamas up to October 7th. So it's gets even dicier and dicer. And it pisses me off that there are members of the Democratic Party that should be clear eyed and have moral clarity on this and they think that, that we're stupid.

[C]

Well, they'll say like, well, you're, you're ignoring the fact that there really is anti Semitism out there. It's like, no, I'm not. Like, of course there's anti Semitism, hateful, virulent anti Semitism. And like, yes, it has come from some people who have protested. Right, right. But like, that does not mean. Just because that exists doesn't mean that there aren't also atrocities that have happened over the last several years.

[A]

And knock, knock, knock. The majority of the anti Semites are under the maga tent. You think evangelicals, they have an apocalyptic nightmare dream for all of the Jews, get to Israel so Jesus can come send you to hell. I mean, the most anti semitic people I've ever met in my life are evangelical Christians. Christians, all of the tropes, all of the things. But also Donald Trump has From, you know, 2016, from Charlottesville all the way to now. And then you know, at January 6th, a man had on a shirt that said, what is it, Camp Auschwitz? And you see the Nazi flags at January 6th. And it's the real heart of all of that are the people that the hard right Zionists have gone to see seek safety with those people. And I'm like, oh, good luck. I've been, I've been around these types of people my whole life. Good luck with that. Because they will you so fast it'll make your head spin. I mean, right after they get their coalition.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I just thought, felt like we need to talk about that. Okay. This is a great one. Had it or hit it. Trump's cabinet meetings.

[C]

I want to say hit it only because it is such great content.

[B]

It is, it's great content.

[A]

We just reported a couple episodes on it earlier.

[C]

It slaps every time.

[A]

Totally.

[C]

It just really. And then you get that they're all, you know, glazing him the whole time.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And they just, it's just like tuning in to hear how ridiculous it gets now. I Would not want to be sitting there for all four hours of, you know, his Castro like meetings there. But it is, it is something to behold. And it's fun, too. Today watching Marco Rubio try to talk to him while he's falling asleep. Yeah, that was satisfying to me.

[A]

And you see the stroke residue. I'm not a doctor, but I do think he's had a stroke. That's my professional opinion. And I've never been to mesmerize.

[C]

He doesn't give a fuck about that.

[A]

And he's just asleep.

[B]

Well, he was up all night with.

[C]

7,000 and if I close my eyes, what are they going to do to me?

[A]

Okay. Had it or hit it? The war on Christmas.

[C]

Oh, had it.

[B]

It's ridiculous.

[C]

It's ridiculous. What? War on Christmas wins every year. Every year Christmas wins.

[A]

I am an atheist and I have two Christmas trees. I have stockings. I love to go do Christmas things. I take joy in listening to Christmas carols and wrapping presents. As my mother would say, my atheist mother. Well, you know, darling, it was really a pagan holiday before it was the Christian holiday. And so we've always kind of culturally, you know, people can be culturally Jewish. My family's kind of culturally Christian. But I think it's hilarious. And I love to tell, like, my Christian friends in Oklahoma, they're like, yeah, you know, we get to say Merry Christmas again. That's so weird. I've been saying Merry Christmas forever and I'm a total atheist.

[C]

Always Merry Christmas. And then like sometimes I'll say Happy Holidays, just. And like, that's not a, that doesn't. It's. I'm not. Not put out by saying Happy Holidays to someone.

[A]

It's such. But you know what I call it? It's just buzzword politics. Fox News is just all buzzword politics. Fascism, communism, feminism, socialism. And they just throw out these scary words, a war on Christmas or Judeo Christian values. I just want to go shut the up. I mean, those, that, that. Oh my God.

[C]

Most people don't want to hear it. Most people don't. Aren't into their culture worship.

[A]

Crazy about these women on Fox News.

[B]

Oh, we get into it all the time.

[A]

They are talking about women needing to marry and stay at home with their children. And these bitches are sitting up there working full time as they're sending that message. And I don't know if the average Fox viewer is so goddamn dumb, they don't realize, hold up, sis, you're working. So what?

[B]

Why are you special?

[A]

It's just, I don't I don't. I guess there's so much cognitive dissonance in that world.

[C]

Yeah, I haven't heard the, the women should stay home stuff from the. The Fox hosts recently. I feel like that's like a. You gotta get into the deep right wing podcast.

[A]

Sean Duffy's wife. Oh, oh, she's been on there lately and she was talking about. Just know that when you hear now, just know when you hear the word feminism, that just means communism.

[B]

Communism.

[A]

And we need to get back to our Christian roots. You know, Fox is now going to be introducing more Christian messaging in their news channel because that's what Fox viewers need. That is more Christianity.

[C]

That is what they need.

[B]

They're trying to get rid of that radical empathy from Jesus.

[C]

Empathy. Dangerous.

[A]

All right, last one. Had it or hit it. The United States of America.

[C]

Oh, absolutely. Hit it. Love. The United States of America. And like I was saying earlier, like I said, I believe that the Democrat who's gonna win in 2028 is going to be someone who reclaims patriotism, defined as what this country was founded on. The principles that it was founded on. A revolutionary idea that had never been tried, which is we are going to organize a country around an idea that everyone is created equal and we're a bunch of slave owners and landowners who are not going to allow women to vote for many years. But now that we've put the idea out there, successive generations are gonna fight and say, well, that's what it says. And so we're gonna make the country a little better and we're gonna make the country a little more inclusive and make the country a little more, A little richer for everyone involved. And that's what America is. And what is courageous and patriotic is to be self critical of the country.

[A]

Yes, right.

[C]

And to be confident that you don't have to fluff the country all the time and say America's perfect and everything's wonderful and you can't criticize. No, like real patriotism is saying, I love this country, I want to make it better. And what we have set up here in this Democratic government is that we can come together, work together and make this place a little bit better for ourselves and for our children. And then hopefully they can take up the mantle and they can do the same thing. And that's real patriotism. And the bullshit that they are spouting is just like airbrushed patriotism. And where the President of the United States right now and his party are just sitting there like, like grabbing whatever they can for themselves, all the power they can all the money they can. That's not patriotic. That's not America. That's not all men are created equal. That's bullshit. That's what we had in this world before America came to be where you had kings and you had dictators and you had people oppressing other people. That's all of human history. America was the idea that tried to change all of that. Maybe we don't need to have a system where you just have a few powerful people oppressing everyone else. Maybe we can can have a system where everyone gets a say and everyone can succeed and that you don't. And that you don't have to tell people. Like, for my group to do well, your group has to do bad. Maybe we can all do well.

[B]

I vote for it.

[A]

Okay. I love that. I agree. We have to keep hitting America. Although listener, I know sometimes we all feel like we've had it and then we have to fight for it and hit it. And I'm going to do something really diabolical right now. I've been thinking about it all day. This is. We're going to end it on this. Okay? Pumps, fuck, Mary, kill.

[B]

Can I say what you're gonna say?

[A]

John. John gave one or Tommy. Okay.

[B]

I knew that was it.

[A]

I knew that was it.

[B]

The three crooked media guys. I knew it was.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

First of all, obviously love it.

[A]

I have to marry.

[B]

He's so funny.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He's so much fun. I'm asexual. He's gay. That's perfect match. Okay. Okay.

[A]

So that's kind of awkward with Jon Favreau said.

[C]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

But here's the thing. But you got it.

[B]

I think he'd be more fun than Tommy.

[A]

I do. You're killing Tommy. You think he'd be better in the sack than I do?

[B]

Because Tommy's pretty straight laced.

[A]

I feel like I told you it was diabolical.

[C]

Tommy definitely gives off a straight laced.

[B]

Vibe, but he's probably not.

[A]

But sometimes those are the.

[B]

Those are the ones that are.

[A]

Yes, Sometimes those are the ones.

[B]

Maybe John, you're the best one.

[C]

I would love you to marry Lovett and then just get back to me in like two years.

[B]

He's so much fun, though.

[C]

He is a lot of fun.

[A]

He's not the greatest fucking look.

[B]

Love it. I knew that's what you were gonna say.

[C]

When we moved to LA in 2014, Lovett lived directly across the street from my now wife and I. And so he was basically living with us throughout the whole. And it was hilarious and a lot.

[B]

Yeah, a lot.

[C]

That is Lovett. He's hilarious and wonderful and a lot.

[B]

And he lives in la and I don't see.

[A]

That's.

[C]

See, there you go. It was perfect.

[B]

Perfect marriage.

[A]

Did he get married recently?

[C]

Not yet.

[A]

Not yet.

[B]

Engaged?

[C]

20, 26.

[A]

Oh, exciting.

[C]

It's coming.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Ari's wonderful.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Just tell you, when we had Lovett on, it was the day that the Survivor came out that he got cut on.

[C]

Literally the funniest thing that's ever happened. Finding out that Lovett was.

[A]

I love it. All right, listener, thank you for tuning in, John. We hope we collab with you.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

Many more times.

[C]

This was so fun.

[A]

Say on a personal note, you've really kept the cruelty that the Trump administration is doing to immigrants. And I see it in my feed all the time. And your compassion and humanizing those people, it's just so important. And I just, as a person to person, I appreciate that content so much.

[C]

Keeps me up at night. I hope it. Hope it does something.

[A]

All right, listener, we'll see you next Tuesday.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

I'll tell you what I've had it with. Let's hear it. I've had it with that. Listen up, patriots, gaytriots and natriots. We have a new podcast that has dropped. It's called IHIP News. It's Monday through Friday. Every day, 15 to 20 minute hot takes on the political landscape of the United States of America. Always served with a side of petty grievances.

[B]

We are on all the available platforms, Apple, Spotify, Google, whatever you get your podcast and YouTube, please go, rate, subscribe.

[A]

And review so that we will chart upwards with America's greatest legal mind. Pumps, pumps. What does an eagle say? Caca. A little bit more enthusiasm.

[B]

Caca.

[A]

That's it. That's. That's kaka. That's the patriotism that this country needs right there.