Podcast Summary:

Jabin Chavez Leadership Podcast – "The 5 Levels Of Leadership" | #071
Host: Jabin Chavez
Date: November 5, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Jabin Chavez unpacks "The 5 Levels of Leadership," providing sharp insights into understanding, managing, and empowering diverse team members within organizations, especially in church and ministry contexts. Drawing from personal experiences and mentorship advice, Jabin breaks down five distinct categories of people found on any team, explores how to best lead each, and encourages leaders to carefully calibrate their expectations, communication, and access accordingly.

Key Discussion Points

1. Identifying the Leadership Challenge

• Personal Frustration:
  Jabin shares frustration with weekly staff leadership talks that seemed ineffective.
  • "I'm so worn out. I don't feel like they're listening… I don't feel like they're taking this stuff and doing anything with it." (01:11)
• Mentor’s Insight:
  His mentor pointed out he was addressing all staff as if they were leaders, overlooking crucial differences.
  • "You're talking to people who aren't leaders like they're leaders... it's not their fault. It's your fault. Not everybody on your team is a leader." (02:07)
  • "If they are a leader, they won't be on your team for long because they're going to go lead something." (02:31)

2. The 5 Levels of People on a Team

Jabin describes five tiers of people, each requiring unique approaches:

Level 1: The Lazy Person

• Definition:
  "They do not do and they do not think... Can't teach you to think, can't teach you to work." (03:10)
• Key Insight:
  Identify and remove early—ideally during the hiring process.
  • "Hire slow, fire fast." (03:33)
  • "A lazy person cannot function in a high functioning staff and in a great, growing church." (04:07)
• Action:
  Filter out in interviews—look for past job patterns and lack of capacity.
  Don’t invest in trying to transform them.

Level 2: The Doer

• Definition:
  "They do the job, but they just do their job… It's not because they're lazy, but it's just because they can't handle anymore." (05:00)
• Key Insight:
  It’s OK they only fulfill what’s required, often working best alone and within a clear scope.
  • "Give them 10 things on a piece of paper, they can do it. Want them to in any way draw outside the lines, you're going to crush them." (07:10)
• Example:
  Gifted worship leaders not meant to be worship pastors.
  • "They're a doer. Give them a microphone ... but they're not a director." (06:11)
• Action:
  Set clear boundaries, don't push beyond their capacity.

Level 3: The Manager

• Definition:
  "A manager can do and think with others ... at the mercy and the strength of the team." (08:25)
• Key Insight:
  Critical for middle management; efficacy tied to team’s talent. Not always inspirational but essential for coordination and systems.
  • "When you've got a talented team, that manager looks like a rock star." (09:15)
• Historical Note:
  "Management was like all the rage back in the 1980s ... now leadership became the new word." (10:05)
• Action:
  Value their role, ensure managers are in supportive contexts, don’t expect them to empower others.

Level 4: The Leader

• Definition:
  "They know how to inspire ... have vision ... rally others." (11:24)
• Key Insight:
  Leaders are not made out of everyone—leadership is a distinct gift.
  • "It's very famous to say that leaders are made, not born, and that anybody can become a leader. I just don't agree with that." (11:55)
  • Cites Romans on the "gift of leadership": "I don't think everybody is a leader." (12:24)
  • "Leadership is this uncanny it factor ... can rally ... can inspire ... can think and come up with ideas, and then they have the grit to do it." (12:50)
• Action:
  Differentiate between influence and leadership as a gift. Place accordingly.

Level 5: The Great Leader

• Definition:
  "A great leader can do all the things a leader can do, but they can do it with other leaders. They can't just lead doers or managers. They know how to lead leaders." (13:33)
• Key Insight:
  Leading leaders requires trust, security, and a willingness to let the best idea win.
  • "That takes trust, security, and a willingness to let the best idea win." (13:42)
• Action:
  Reserve special access and decision-making roles for great leaders; place them in contexts with peers, not with doers or only managers.

Practical Application & Organizational Health

• Evaluate Your Team:
  "On your team right now, you have all those people ... If you can figure that out ... this can radically impact the health of the organization and your joy." (14:07)
• Structure Meetings and Access:
  "They all should have different access to you. They should all be in different meetings. Don't put a great leader in a meeting with a doer ..." (14:23)
• Releasing People Correctly:
  "Figure out who your team is and then make sure you're releasing them properly into the ministry." (15:00)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Hire slow, fire fast." (03:33)
• "A lazy person cannot function in a high functioning staff and in a, in a great, growing church." (04:07)
• "Give them 10 things on a piece of paper, they can do it. Want them to in any way draw outside the lines, you're going to crush them." (07:10)
• "When you've got a talented team, that manager looks like a rock star." (09:15)
• "It's very famous to say that leaders are made, not born, and that anybody can become a leader. I just don't agree with that." (11:55)
• "Leadership is this uncanny it factor ... can rally ... can inspire ... can think and come up with ideas, and then they have the grit to do it." (12:50)
• "A great leader can do all the things a leader can do, but they can do it with other leaders." (13:33)
• "I think a lot of people have access to you probably that shouldn't have access to you, and it's frustrating you and ... affecting your joy level." (14:37)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|----------------------------------------------| | 01:11 | Jabin's personal frustration with leadership talks | | 02:07 | Mentor’s insight on team dynamics | | 03:10 | Level 1: The Lazy Person | | 05:00 | Level 2: The Doer | | 08:25 | Level 3: The Manager | | 11:24 | Level 4: The Leader | | 13:33 | Level 5: The Great Leader | | 14:07 | Application: Assessing your team | | 14:23 | Access & meeting structure advice | | 15:00 | Challenging call to action |

Action Steps for Leaders

• Assess each team member’s level—lazy, doer, manager, leader, great leader.
• Adjust expectations, communication, and access for each group.
• Avoid giving undue access or responsibility to those not equipped or gifted for it.
• Value every role (except lazy), and place people where they fit best.
• Structure meetings so that doers, managers, leaders, and great leaders can thrive without frustration.
• Regularly review team composition and make necessary changes to support organizational health and personal joy as a leader.

This episode serves as a practical guide for leaders seeking to maximize effectiveness, eliminate frustration, and empower teams at every level. Jabin’s candid, faith-filled, and down-to-earth delivery makes the complexities of organizational leadership accessible and actionable.