← James Reed: all about business
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- [00:00]
James Reed
Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. I know that inheriting a family business comes with challenges. How do you make the changes necessary for growth without damaging the qualities that made the business successful in the first place? Joining me today on All About Business is Reggie Hayworth. Reggie became the owner of the Cotswold Wildlife park after taking over the business from his father three decades ago. In that time, he's tackled numerous challenges, including managing a team of over 200 people, keeping his animals fed during the pandemic, and staying true to his father's vision in the face of corporate adversity. So, Reggie, welcome to All About Business. I'm so pleased you're here because I've really been looking forward to this conversation because I'm a long standing customer of your wonderful business. I've been coming to the Cotswold Wildlife park, which you run for decades now, and I just think it's one of the nicest places to visit. I think it's a wonderful business and the people who work there universally, universally kind and pleasant, which I think is so impressive, everyone I've met. So I wanted to get you in because I think you run a really interesting business and you seem to have a sort of Midas touch when it comes to looking after wildlife, but also, also the, the sort of culture and people side of the, the business. So how did, how did it begin? I understand your father set it up and then you took it on. So the Cotswold Wildlife park is a family.
- [02:01]
Reggie Hayworth
So yes, the, the house in the park that you visit was a house that he was born. My father was born in, in 1925 and after the war he inherited. Second World War. He inherited it from his grandparents because his father had been killed in the war. He was a young man and the house went out of. His family was rented out for 20 years. And it was this rather strange, spooky place a couple of fields away from where the family, my three sisters, just.
- [02:37]
James Reed
A few bats at that time.
- [02:39]
Reggie Hayworth
Yeah. All brought up a couple of fields away in a small house. Small house. Whenever my parents had another child, they added on another cable and, and, and then this house and the park came back to my dad in 1969. And because it was in the middle of the land that he farmed and he'd been born there and he loved was what do I do now? And of course 1969 was not the time of plenty. He didn't have cash, he had land, he had assets like farmers do. He didn't have. So he borrowed £40,000, a lot of money in those days. And he'd always loved animals. So when we were brought up there was parrots in the house, he had a collection of ornamental ducks, we always had dogs. He was a farmer so he had cows and there was animals everywhere. Dog everything except cats. Actually. My mother hated cats because she'd been peed on while as a little girl when she was sitting at the table with her parents. That would put me off and it. And she had to keep a straight face and she's never liked cats since.
- [03:46]
James Reed
But you've got some big cats.
- [03:48]
Reggie Hayworth
Well eventually she came around to them and so that's how it all started. And on a wing and a prayer and a big loan and this passion that he'd always had for animals and this and also his determination to hang on to the house which needed a lot of money spending on money spending on it. It needed a new roof. It's not a very important or impressive house. It's not, it's. It's grade two. It's. It's a sort of second division Victorian manor house. But it had lovely trees and the. And lovely, lovely potential in the grounds, which my dad, who was a very good gardener and had a lovely, very good plantsman as well. He saw this and thought right, we can do something here. But it was a big risk, you know that it was, it was just when.
- [04:43]
James Reed
So how did he actually begin? What were the first animals you got? So he was basically turning it, what you describe as a second division Victorian manor house into a.
- [04:51]
Reggie Hayworth
Into a visitor attraction. Yeah, he thought let's, let's get people to come and see the animals.
- [04:55]
James Reed
What did he put there first? What was your first.
- [04:58]
Reggie Hayworth
What everybody was doing at the time. I say everybody. There was a chap called Jimmy Chipperfield, the circus family going round. He had an animal capture operation in Africa and he been going around hard up to houses saying we can make a lot of money by creating safari parks. So Longleat in 1966 was the first. The year we opened I think was the year, I think Marwall opened that year. That was a drive around safari park.
- [05:28]
James Reed
I think there was a safari park in Windsor.
- [05:30]
Reggie Hayworth
Remember going around as a car they all. And Jimmy Chipperfield had this great insight. The British working classes, the urban masses, had got their first car and they wanted to explore the countryside. And he saw this as a market. And they were the theme parks of that day, places like Woburn that opened the same year that we did. And he was an absolute genius. And Longleaf, they've no idea how many visitors they had because they just counted the cars. But in those days, the family car was the family car. Like a bench seat in the front, it would be six, eight people would tumble out of that car because it was it. And you'd had. They. They reckon they had over 3 million visitors to Longleat in 1966, the year they opened. They don't know. That's like Alton Towers at his height. And so my father, he. He could see that, you know, this was happening and it could happen to us, but he didn't want people to drive around because he always had this thing that people should get out of the car and enjoy the gardens, enjoy nature in its entirety. And that was what was slightly different to his approach at the time. And he. So he shied away from the big animals partly because of cost and also welfare reasons. So right at the very beginning, he said no elephants and no higher primates, chimpanzees, bonobos, orangutans, gorillas, because of. He just didn't feel that was unfair on them. This was before animal welfare had entered the public consciousness to anything like the degree that it has.
- [07:06]
James Reed
It was in his consciousness, yes.
- [07:08]
Reggie Hayworth
My mum told me years later that they took me to London Zoo when I was a little boy on a day out from my prep school, and my dad was thinking of starting a zoo then, and this in about 1968, apparently. And there was a very famous gorilla given by Mabuja Seseka, president of Zaire to Britain, called Guy the Gorilla in London Zoo. Do you remember Guy the girl?
- [07:34]
James Reed
Yeah, I do. He didn't look very happy.
- [07:36]
Reggie Hayworth
Well, apparently I don't remember this, but apparently we went to see Guy the gorilla and he was sitting. And actually, I sort of do remember this. He was sitting in this enclosure in this house and it was really dirty and he was looking. He was on his own, which is not a natural thing for a gorilla to be. And he looked really sad and I started crying and there was other kids there who were sort of, you know, making faces at him and hammering on the window and screaming and laughing and everything, but I cried. And my dad said to my mom after that, well, that's one thing we can't have if we start a zoo, we can't have children crying. And so we kept out of that, which was one of the best things. I mean, there are lots of brilliant decisions my dad made, but those five animals, avoiding them was absolutely crucial. Although they're very popular of course in some ways. And so it started actually very small, just with the walled garden, which you know about, if you've been there so many times. And every zoo has got to have penguins, so you have to start with penguins. You cannot not have penguins in a zoo. And I remember them, I remember hornbills arriving because they got delivered to my parents house by mistake. The biggest animal I think was a tapir, which is like a South American primitive horse. It was really simple stuff and it was just that walled garden area. There was a small playground made by the estate handyman and there was that lay carrier with my father's ornamental duck collection on a few flamingos and. But no rhinos at that stage. It was all much, much smaller.
- [09:17]
James Reed
But people still were sufficiently drawn by that.
- [09:20]
Reggie Hayworth
There was nothing else in those days, right. You know, these things were. There were, you know, the moves were. I mean the early days were just chaos. The first weekend, they've no idea. They reckon third 17. My father's great bit of advice after opening on Good Friday was whenever you open, never open on an Easter weekend. The idea of a soft opening hadn't occurred to you, so we were so inundated on first weekend at the end of it, everybody was just crying with exhaustion. I don't really remember it, but we did.
- [09:50]
James Reed
When was that? Which year was that?
- [09:52]
Reggie Hayworth
That was Good Friday, I think, fell on March 27, 1970, an early Easter. And, and, and my father, the lovely curator who was. Who joined my father without pay to get it going. Chap called Brian Sinfield, marvelous man who died last year. He remembered, he told me, walking down the drive on Good Friday that morning approaching 10 o'clock and there was one car waiting to come in. And he walked down the drive, opened the gates and he turned around. He couldn't bear to look behind him because he just thought, oh my God, there's no one here. And by the time he walked back up the drive, there's just a constant stream of cars coming in. And they knew they had a success on their hands. Well, not a success, but they knew at least they had money. I mean, and in those days it was a shilling for children and 2 and 6 for adults, right? So that's 12 and a half P for an adult and 5 P for a child.
- [10:54]
James Reed
We're delighted that you're listening to this episode. Hit the follow button so that we can continue to bring you the best business insight and actionable advice to help your business and or career. So, okay, so fast forward now to today. You, you mentioned London Zoo and your childhood visit there. I understand now you have a bigger collection of animals than London Zoo, is that correct?
- [11:19]
Reggie Hayworth
I, I, someone told me that quite recently. I mean, I think I know London Zoo. A lot of zoos have been spooked by avian influenza, have really run down their bird collections. I'm not, I know, but London Zoo still got a good bird collection, but I know some have gone out. I think they have paired back the collection quite a lot. Yeah.
- [11:41]
James Reed
Is there any zoo with more animals?
- [11:43]
Reggie Hayworth
Oh yes, I'm sure there is. Chester. Chester's bigger. Yeah, I think, I think Colchester's probably got more than us. I think we're sort of in the top four.
- [11:52]
James Reed
Right.
- [11:52]
Reggie Hayworth
Top five. So by number of species.
- [11:55]
James Reed
Right, so you've got roughly how many different.
- [11:59]
Reggie Hayworth
260 species, what we say. And the big stuff is sort of rhinos, lions, leopards, zebras, camels, giraffes. As I say, a pretty broad brush approach to getting a lovely diverse collection. My dad wasn't a specialist. He, he loved everything, he loved breeding stuff. He was uh, he's just avoiding the big pitfalls, the elephants and the higher primates. Um, but otherwise he just anything that you could get hold of. And of course in those days you had to buy everything. Nowadays the zoo community, we just swap everything amongst ourselves. No money changes hands.
- [12:38]
James Reed
Really.
- [12:38]
Reggie Hayworth
Yeah.
- [12:38]
James Reed
How does that work then?
- [12:40]
Reggie Hayworth
Where all the members of an association, the European association of Zoos and Aquaria, all the major zoos and you have literally a wanted list and a surplus list. All the major species anyway a part of breeding programs managed independently.
- [12:58]
James Reed
So that's bartered. They're bartered.
- [13:01]
Reggie Hayworth
Well, you, or if you join a breeding program, you might say, listen, we've got the facilities to take part in the Asiatic lion breeding program. So there's a committee that runs that at a European level because endangered species. And they'll send you the husbandry guidelines, they'll check all your accommodation, make sure you've got all everything ready. And they'll say, right, Bristol Zoo is going to have surplus cubs next year they're breeding and that'll will match one of their cubs up with another cub from Frankfurt Zoo and they breed theirs and you can join the program. That's sort of how it all works. And it's, it's wonderful because everybody cooperates now and it's all about building the resilience in the captive population of zoo animals. And, and, and I'm just trying to build that safety net population to the wild.
- [13:52]
James Reed
So yours are Asiatic lions?
- [13:53]
Reggie Hayworth
Well, ours are. I mean it's the same with African lines. Any major species of animal is always part of a breeding program nowadays. Whereas when we started in 1970, you know, my dad used to, he'd go to animal dealers, had to buy everything. The big expense was buying the animals. Those days. You could go to Harrods, you go downstairs in Harrods. If you couldn't buy that animal in Harrods, you could order it really. You could order an elephant in Harrods, you could buy a cheetah there.
- [14:20]
James Reed
They used to say you could buy anything at Harrods. So you really could, you're saying.
- [14:25]
Reggie Hayworth
Yeah, that's how it was. All animal dealers, the word conservation hadn't been invented in 1970.
- [14:30]
James Reed
Right.
- [14:31]
Reggie Hayworth
No one had a thought. You know, Jimmy Chipperfield had an animal capture operation in East Africa. He was just hoovering animals up and.
- [14:40]
James Reed
Just shipping them over, which is very shocking.
- [14:42]
Reggie Hayworth
Well nowadays no one thought, no one thought this. You know, these animals were endless. It was only in the 70s and 80s that people started to wake up. The fact there was a huge die off a huge drought in Kenya that was filmed by, I think I'm going to get this wrong, but it was something like the survival series on Anglia tv, the Buxtons, they were the first people to start doing these slightly hard hitting documentaries on what was happening in the forests. You know, people like Jacques Cousteau in the oceans. 70s and 80s people started to wake up to the, you know, the eye. Some of the issues that are now so huge and topical, but particularly the word conservation started to appear and then you had, you know, the Born Free Brigade also emerging. In the aftermath of the success of Joy Adamson's books and the film and Virginia McKenna and then the anti zoo movement and increasing consciousness about that started to come in the 70s and 80s when we were, when we were kicking off, you know, it was a very different world.
- [15:48]
James Reed
So Reggie, you know, now that animal welfare is much more widely sort of paid attention to, do you think it's appropriate that there are still gorillas in zoos?
- [15:58]
Reggie Hayworth
Oh, I mean definitely. We're a bit sort of cowardly to be honest, not having the elephants and the higher primates. That's gorillas, chimpanzees bonobos and orangutans, because it was partly a financial decision as well, and it was welfare. My father just didn't feel he could do them justice. And we got a challenging climate for that, you know, of winter's day is not great for elephants, not great for the higher primates. But one of the, one of the sort of anti zoo things is one of the, what they're saying. One, one of the things they say is that, you know, with the incredible advances in technology and drone technology and filming, you know, these new films by David Attenborough are so stunning and so amazing that there's no reason to have these animals in captivity. It's all there in front of you on the screen. Sounds, I completely disagree with that. There is nothing like seeing an elephant or a gorilla or something actually in the flesh if it's, well, you know, even if it's not in ideal situations, you know, like my experience as a child with Guy the gorilla made a huge impression on me and I really respect those zoos and safari parks in this country and in other countries that do try and meet the challenge of keeping these animals. Because without any question, the way people are able to see elephants in captivity is absolutely critical to them. Getting an understanding of the importance of trying to do something about conservation in the wild so on. And that is not answered. That is not the same as seeing them on a screen. So I think it's great that zoo, there are zoos out there that are doing it. We are too cowardly or otherwise to do it, but I salute the guys who do do it. But it's very challenging for them. Elephants are really dangerous and the higher primates are very challenging to look after. I think in our climate it can be done, but it's a, it's, you know, they do on the whole, have a really good life, I think a lot of them, but it's, you know, they have a tough life in the wild. So, you know, which is, which is better.
- [18:19]
James Reed
The elephants are dangerous. More dangerous than miners?
- [18:22]
Reggie Hayworth
Yeah, they're always a danger. They're so intelligent and you know that an elephant never forgets. It's not a cliche. They really. So, you know, I can think of four zoos in this country, they've had keepers killed in the last 25 years, not to mention worldwide. You know, they're, they're, they're very challenging animals and they, you know, it's a huge expense. You're building the housing for them and all this sort of stuff.
- [18:46]
James Reed
It's tough they're magnificent, though.
- [18:48]
Reggie Hayworth
They are great.
- [18:49]
James Reed
I mean, they're big African elephant and.
- [18:51]
Reggie Hayworth
Seeing them in, seeing them in a zoo for, for a lot of children is life changing stuff. And they see the anti zoo brigade, they're fascinating. They're always people who can afford to go on safari.
- [19:02]
James Reed
Right, interesting.
- [19:03]
Reggie Hayworth
I've never, never yet met an anti zoo person who's not from a posh, privileged background.
- [19:10]
James Reed
Right.
- [19:11]
Reggie Hayworth
You know, and who really know, you know, it's fine for them. Yeah, yeah.
- [19:16]
James Reed
What's your view on the poaching? You know, obviously elephants have been heavily poached in certain parts of Africa and the population's under pressure. There's been a lot of politics around poaching.
- [19:27]
Reggie Hayworth
Yeah. I mean, the whole conservation thing, I mean, I mean, one of my worries about the whole conservation issue is it's a really difficult one for the wildlife part to navigate because fundamentally, yes, conservation actions like anti poaching and helping all these countries to look after their wildlife and their habitats and all the rest of it is incredibly important stuff. But I personally feel that it's. Those are the sticking plaster treatments to a slightly more fundamental problem. And there's only David Attenborough, as far as I can make out of the established people who will say this, is that actually it's all nowadays about human wildlife conflict and that's always a function of overpopulation. And no one talks about overpopulation. You will listen in vain to the BBC who address the issue of overpopulation because fundamentally it is regarded as being Islamophobic. We're onto very tricky ground here and people won't look at the elephant in the room. And a lot of the passion I find that's directed into conservation is admirable. But at the end of the day, it's a slight displacement activity that enables everybody to unite around anti poaching, lovely causes like that, but stops them having to look at the real issue, which is giving women control over their bodies. And that is not a message that goes down well in a lot of sub Saharan Africa. It doesn't go down well in the Islamic world. And it's a, you know, and it's, it's not something that the Western world wants to confront. So I, I'm slightly conflicted on all of that stuff. So I go along with it like everybody does in the conservation chat. And, you know, we're doing all this for, you know, we're sending money to these charities, doing all this work. But it worries me that it's not an answer, not we're not addressing it. And in fact, by not addressing it, by avoiding it, we're making it worse.
- [21:48]
James Reed
So you have taken this company forward in a very changing environment. You took over from your father?
- [21:54]
Reggie Hayworth
Well, he died in 2012. I came back in Africa for five years until 1995. Tourism and then in conservation out there. And my dad hit 70 in 1995. He was suddenly an old and slightly exhausted. 70 year old, really, and, but still a font of wisdom and knowledge and everything. And he'd had enough of the wildlife park. It was very exhausting. It wasn't making.
- [22:23]
James Reed
So what year are we talking about?
- [22:25]
Reggie Hayworth
1995.
- [22:26]
James Reed
So you, so you basically got.
- [22:28]
Reggie Hayworth
So I came back from Africa slightly under duress. I was having a great time out there. And he said, you know, I was, I was, to be fair, I was 34 and I was older than I thought I'd be when I would start to get involved, but I was having a great time in Africa and I thought, you know, that I'd be good for a few more years out there. And he said no.
- [22:48]
James Reed
But he needed you.
- [22:49]
Reggie Hayworth
Yeah, I think. And also, I mean, I was quite keen to come back in some ways.
- [22:53]
James Reed
So you like the idea?
- [22:54]
Reggie Hayworth
Very much so.
- [22:55]
James Reed
When Covid happened in our business, you know, we shut the office, people went home. I was super worried, obviously, because the demand for our services plummeted. But for your business, it must be much harder because you still have to feed all these animals and look after them and have all the costs associated with that and employing the people who do that and zero income. You're closed. So how did you get through that?
- [23:18]
Reggie Hayworth
I mean, we, as I, as I said, when I, I'm not an accountant, but I always look at that bottom line. The, the, just the, the, the bank statement. And we sort of had a bit of prep for this with foot and mouth crisis in 2001. We didn't actually get foot.
- [23:35]
James Reed
You have to close that.
- [23:36]
Reggie Hayworth
Yes. I mean, do you remember the, the then Agricultural Secretary said, don't go to the countryside and we were just dead in the water. We, you know, we closed. I remember it was just after February, half term in 2001, and we remained closed until the end of March. About five weeks.
- [23:54]
James Reed
Yes.
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Reggie Hayworth
And it's not a busy five weeks and the weather wasn't that great, but we would have missed out on 20,000 visitors and the accompanying cash flow. And at that point, you know, your cash just falls through the floor. And we were thinking, if we don't open in time for Easter, you know, we're really in trouble because there wasn't a lot of money around then at all. It was still bumping along the bottom. At that point my father said, right, this is going to happen again. We have got to build up a fighting fund of a year's operating costs to see us through this again. Because it happened in the 1960s and he was thinking of zoonotic diseases then and we've got to build up a strong balance sheet so that we can see this through again because we've got too many people.
- [24:36]
James Reed
So zoonotic diseases, disease affects animals.
- [24:39]
Reggie Hayworth
Yes, people are an animal, animal disease that would. Runs the risk of, of jumping into, into human population or something like that.
- [24:49]
James Reed
So Covid might have been one.
- [24:51]
Reggie Hayworth
Yes. Something who. I mean that was the original theory coming out of Wuhan, the wet market in Wuhan. Jumping from bats or whatever it was. I've probably got the term wrong, but it's. My father was always worried that zoos would, there'd be some day a sex machine that would do for zoos overnight and, and disease being always a danger and it took us 15 years to actually build up that, that pot and we've.
- [25:24]
James Reed
So he was quite a visionary, wasn't he, John?
- [25:25]
Reggie Hayworth
Well, he did. I don't like borrowing money and I, I don't like. I think, you know, when, when you like it. Well, I'm not a risk taker. My dad was. You know, I'm. I just feel much more comfortable when I look at the wildlife park, thinking I've got 150 full time equivalent jobs there. Essentially has 150 families as far as I can make out or mouth to feed or whatever it is. And I'm not going to bet the house on some dodgy outcome and I want to make sure that if things go wrong, you know, we can carry on paying the wages and we can carry on looking after the animals and all that sort of stuff. So in that sense, I'm afraid I'm completely unadventurous and conservative but I have really concentrated on building up a strong balance sheet and a healthy business that can see off whatever comes our way. When Kobe came and it was clearly we were all nervous, a lot of people were terrified. We were obviously closed and the cash flow dried up at a crucial time of year this time, not at a quiet time of year. That first lockdown started on 24th of March, three days before our 50th anniversary. And it was going to take out the whole of the Easter holidays, which is your big you get out of jail card for the year that is when the people come pouring in and the weather was fantastic and that place was empty and it was costing us 20,000 a day just to stand still, feed the animals. So even after putting all the customer facing staff, so retail catering, train guys, all that lot on furlough, that still left animal husbandry, all the keepers, all the gardeners, the grounds guys, a couple of key secretarial people, you know, working, being, being paid and feeding the animals and getting the vets round. And it was really extraordinary.
- [27:37]
James Reed
How long were you closed for?
- [27:38]
Reggie Hayworth
So that first lockdown took us till I think it was June 10th, roughly. Was it June 7th?
- [27:44]
James Reed
June, I remember. And so it's like three months.
- [27:48]
Reggie Hayworth
About three months. Was it as long as that? Yes. So March do them. Yeah. So all of April, all of May, two and a half months. And then of course, you had all the social distancing thing. You had all the, you know, not being in crowded spaces. I mean, that opening up was really, really stressful because people, everybody was an expert on Covid by this time and on social distancing were putting you under terrible pressure to stay shut. We were desperate to get open in order to keep the, you know, get the show on the road again. That was much tougher. I mean, just dealing with the people coming back in was hell, frankly.
- [28:26]
James Reed
But I suppose at least they were outdoors when they, they were outdoors.
- [28:30]
Reggie Hayworth
And of course, with hindsight, you know, hindsight's a wonderful thing. What was frustrating as well was, you know, we got a garden center down the road. Lovely, lovely business, family owned again, Burford Garden center, hugely popular, was never, never had to shut. Right. Madness, you know, and there was us, a huge wildlife park, 100 acres of open countryside, and we were closed and people were rammed into this garden center.
- [28:56]
James Reed
Yeah. Going there all the time.
- [28:58]
Reggie Hayworth
Yeah. And they did. They did.
- [28:59]
James Reed
So there were some funny rules. Supermarkets and garden centers open, wildlife park shut.
- [29:05]
Reggie Hayworth
Yeah.
- [29:05]
James Reed
But since you reopened, it's done better than ever, hasn't it? I mean, I remember you telling me you've had bigger visitor numbers since and.
- [29:12]
Reggie Hayworth
A lot happening Covid that made you reassess your business. And I'm sure you found this. And I did. I went back to having the sleepless nights and I rang up a great friend of mine who's a very successful and a very punchy businessman. I said, christ, what do I do? And he said, reg, never waste a good crisis. And it was interesting to really look at the business and see where are we in terms of we're definitely going to come through this, because if we go under with our balance sheet, then there's a lot of other businesses that are going to be in a far worse state. So I was, I wasn't worried that we would have to feed the small animals to the big animals. Although a lot of the zoos were going, they're doing crowdfunding. And a lot of the way of describing it. Well, I mean they were going online. Oh, it was, I mean, London very quickly. Yeah, well, very quickly. Chester Zoo, the two biggest zoos in the country. And London Zoo was saying, you know, we got a crisis on our hands, we haven't got the money, you know, we're going to be feeding. And literally, I think Chester were saying we're speculating on how it was going to pan out along those lines. And they were doing crowdfunding and all the rest of it. Very quickly they were in proper trouble, whereas we had a big cash cushion. And I said, we're going to be fine. But it was a case of while you're at it, look at the business and what would you do? And I said, I've got a wonderful general manager and I've got one non executive director who's my former financial controller. And it's a very labor intensive business. You're looking at a big staff quoted that you don't know how long they're going to be there for. Do you really need them? So it was the Newt Gingrich question that I said to these two. I said, look at Newt Gingrich. It was, I can't remember what he was. He was like leader of the American Republican and he was in the George Bush era. Yeah.
- [31:21]
James Reed
What did he say?
- [31:21]
Reggie Hayworth
And he was a Yale professor. That's very controversial. Did you he apparent? I'm told apparently after some CIA screw up, he famously said in exasperation, if the CIA didn't exist, would you invent it? And I said to these lovely people, my general manager, and I said, please look at every job, look at every salary, look at every package, especially the expensive ones and look at where we are now and ask yourself, if we didn't employ these people now, would we be going out into the marketplace to try and recruit them? So we've got to just look at everything as if it wasn't there and what do you really need? And 24 hours later they came back with four names who were all quite senior people. None of them had been there for less than eight years. One of them had been there for 30 years. And it was these people we would not recruit. On their salary. Now, if they weren't here, we wouldn't. We'd cope. And rather than wait for things to become clearer, I felt that they should all go then and that would give them a chance to get ahead of the game of revolution, planning, rerouting their life after Covid, instead of maybe joining loads of other people who've been let go by failed businesses. So that was the very painful bit of COVID was sitting down with those four people and saying, giving them the letter. Not something I'd done before and, you know, not something I do very well either. You know, lots of tears.
- [33:07]
James Reed
It's very difficult. I mean, that's true of everyone running a business. But it was some point.
- [33:12]
Reggie Hayworth
It was definitely the best thing for the company and I would maintain it was the best thing for them.
- [33:17]
James Reed
Yeah, I'm sure that, you know, I mean, I had to do that myself. In my career, you see people progress afterwards and they go on and have good jobs elsewhere and I still get Christmas cards from people I've had conversations like that with. It's very difficult. It's not a nice part of any job. So you had to make some difficult decisions. I'm just thinking you. You made that point about when you took over. You were pretty hands on, you know, you signed every check. What, are you still that hands on? Do you still know what everyone gets paid?
- [33:48]
Reggie Hayworth
Gosh. I mean, we're nearly 30 years old.
- [33:50]
James Reed
Have you carried on running it like that or have you changed your way, your approach?
- [33:54]
Reggie Hayworth
It'd be interesting to ask the staff that. I mean, I think they would say that I really am a nightmare in my obsession with the detail, because I'm obsessed with litter and cleanliness and scraping up chewing gum and picking up.
- [34:11]
James Reed
Well, that's why it's a nice place to visit. I don't like walking through rubbish and.
- [34:17]
Reggie Hayworth
And so. And also I'm there every day, you know, it must drive them mad. So when I go on holiday, the palpable sense of relief and I now go around and I say, when I see people on my last day before going away, I say, my. My sign off is enjoy my holiday. And they all go, don't worry, we will.
- [34:36]
James Reed
But I bet it's just as good when you get back.
- [34:38]
Reggie Hayworth
Well, it is. No, I mean, they. So I am obsessive about all that stuff. But, I mean, the difference is that whereas I parachuted in to. So, you know, to a system where there were people who weren't. You know, we're used to my father's modus Operandi. You know, there was. The senior guy had to go, basically, and he couldn't work with me, and I couldn't work with him. So that was tough. That took about five years to realize, but it was just not working. The chap who my father relied on and who was incredibly loyal to my father, and that was my dad, was absolutely brilliant about that because I said I was up six or seven years in. I said, I'm really sorry. I just can't work anymore with this chap who'd been devoted to my dad, who might have pointed. And my father just said very simply, that's simple. He's got to go. And he didn't. And you should have had that conversation soon. Yeah. Oh, for sure. I mean, when people have got to go. In my experience, I never do it soon enough. I think we all make the mistake of trying to make things work after their lifespan has clearly gone wrong. And, you know, I'm sure, you know in your heart, if you know your business as well as you or I do, and your people as well as you and I do, that they're not happy, it's not working. They've got to go. And we just try and make it work. We pour a lot of energy into it, and it's very sapping. And it still doesn't work.
- [36:17]
James Reed
No, no. I mean, nothing lasts forever, does it? But it is a difficult journey.
- [36:21]
Reggie Hayworth
And, I mean, you're saying.
- [36:23]
James Reed
I think, you know, if you're starting to think that something's not working, it's probably not working. And that's the thing.
- [36:27]
Reggie Hayworth
Well, you want to. Obviously, you gotta. You. You do your best to make things work. One of the people I met, had the privilege of meeting once was Clive Woodward, the chap who took England to their only World cup rugby. Yeah.
- [36:43]
James Reed
Try on 2003.
- [36:44]
Reggie Hayworth
Amazing. And it. And after that, he became. Sometime after he became director of football at Southampton. And I was taken down there to a game, and I was introduced to him. I knew I had one chance to ask a question, and I said, very nice to meet you, Sir Clive. I'd love to know, what's your secret to building a good team? And he didn't pause for a second. He just looked at me and said, get rid of negative energy. I've never forgotten that. And it was such a good. It was so simple. And if you're running a people business, which essentially is what I am, and of course, you know, animals are the most important thing on one level, but it's essentially a people business, you know, this Thing of keeping people happy, keeping your staff happy, keeping them engaged, and making sure that there's a positive energy around the place. And interestingly, in their different ways, the four people who had to go, I think, were not very happy in the job and probably had become or were seen as negative energy by some of their colleagues or would have felt that way. And it was very interesting how it played out. But I think Sir Clive Woodward was really onto something there and I'm sure that's one of the reasons he was such a success.
- [38:11]
James Reed
Yeah, that's good. Get rid of negative energy. So can I ask you, have you learned anything from the animals? I mean, you. I mean, you've obviously learned a lot from people you've met, but have the animals taught you anything, Reggie?
- [38:23]
Reggie Hayworth
You never. That's what I love about. One of the things I love about the business is I love animals too, which is lucky. I mean, you could not do what I do without absolutely loving animals and finding animal behavior really interesting. And so you walk around that place and you see something different every day and sometimes you see something really unusual, which is just amazing. And also, the keepers are so interesting too, because they really know the animals and they'll make observations that are sort of new to science. And it's sad, actually. A lot of the keepers, you know, they're so knowledgeable, but they're not taken seriously enough by academia and things like that. And it's changing. But in the old days, these old. The knowledge that some of these old boys had, it was fantastic. And actually, that's what's so fun about the wildlife park, is because, yes, of course, it's a people business and it always come back to that. But the animals are absolutely central to the whole thing, animals and the birds. And as long as you keep that focus on everything, that's what makes everything falls into place after that, even all the people who work in the shop and catering, you know, dishing out chips, by the third, you know, they love the animals too.
- [39:44]
James Reed
See, I think this might be your secret, because I've just observed in my life that people who love animals are decent people. On the whole, you've got.
- [39:53]
Reggie Hayworth
I think you can really judge a nation by how they treat animals. I really believe that. And the British are complete softies for animals. I mean, David Attenborough, there's no one like him. And there's the adoration of that man in this for that man. And also, you know, I was told that one of his series, you know, he hit the hard to get 18 to 24 market, like no one else in the BBC has ever hit it. And the BBC panjandrums who are endlessly trying to sort of get down there with the kids in a really embarrassing sort of dad dancing way, they've got nothing compared to what David Attenborough just does with it effortlessly.
- [40:39]
James Reed
Reggie, you know this stuff, but you've confided in me that you don't have a television.
- [40:43]
Reggie Hayworth
No, I don't.
- [40:44]
James Reed
So. So when do you actually get your.
- [40:46]
Reggie Hayworth
I know, you're quite right, I don't do screens.
- [40:49]
James Reed
Pretty cool, not having a television. Well, you've gone off the grid.
- [40:52]
Reggie Hayworth
But even I've heard of, of David Attenborough and actually, I think it's one of the reasons why zoos have survived, because there was a real moment, I think, in the 90s, I would say 80s and 90s, when the anti zoo movement had a lot of traction. You know, there'd be big protests every bank holiday, Monday in August outside the big city zoos in Bristol. And you think that's changed? I would say, you know, David Attenborough's quite pro zoo. I think zoos are doing a lot, trying to do a lot of conservation, conservation education, you know, a lot of it's greenwashing it and inevitably. But they are on the whole, you know, fighting the good fight, I would say, and trying to put money back into good causes and all that sort of stuff. And we certainly try to do our bit. I would say it's a mixed bag, but I think they've, they get. I mean, it's so rare now for us to ever have any problem with zoo antis.
- [41:57]
James Reed
So that's a change. So looking forwards, you know, wildlife is under pressure and in lots of parts of the world, as habitats are being squeezed. What are your thoughts? Are you pessimistic? Optimistic? Gosh, what would you like to see happen? I mean, if you had a magic.
- [42:16]
Reggie Hayworth
Yes. I mean, it's such a tricky one that. Because, you know, you've got to be optimistic. And what I, what I would say on, on the optimistic side is what I see at the wildlife park and you know, helped by David Attenborough and all that is a real love and appreciation of nature and a knowledge about it all in the younger generation that we didn't really have, you know, they are much more attuned to what's, you know, to animals and nature. I just feel that, you know, in general, you know, they're, the next generation, are really aware of a lot of. And I think that's what the somewhere like the wildlife park is really important. This can be important in the. You know, essentially you come down the wildlife park if you're a kid, and on a subliminal level, you go away having seen all these animals in cages, which is, brutally speaking, you know, what. What they are. They're animals in cages, and they're there for your amusement, essentially. You know, you're paying to go and see them on a day out and all the rest of it. But on what one hopes is that parents and children will come away from that, thinking, well, you know, we're in charge here. It's all down to us. Even the really big animals, they're there for our amusement. Not amusement. I mean, they're there and we're in. You know, it's up to us. And on a subliminal level, it's just making everybody understand that, you know, it's important to see where you are as a human being and what impact you can have and how it all depends on you and your decisions. Everybody must take responsibility. The gardens are really lovely, and we take a lot of trouble with us. People love seeing all that. But there's one particular corner in the walled garden which you probably haven't noticed, and it is about the size of the corner of this sofa. It's. It's where tarmac doesn't quite join in a corner of an aviary, where it meets an avery, meets the perimeter wall. But it's next, you know, it's just literally a scrap of ground less than a meter square. And one year, I said to the gardeners, you can't leave it like that. Plant it up. And not only plant it up, but I want it to look really stunning. And it's become a sort of game. Every year is twice up. And they know that I will notice it. And the point being that, you know, if people notice that, if they just see a derelict corner where the tarmac didn't meet, you know, the wall and the perimeter, you know, and maybe they'll just think, well, they may think. They'll think, oh, that's nice. And they may just think, that's really nice. I could do that. You know, I've got a corner in my street, you know, wherever there is no space too small in that place that you cannot make more beautiful. People are there for the day out. You've got to remember they're there for the day out. They're there to enjoy themselves. People have such pressured lives nowadays, you know, people, I just want them to walk around without looking at their Phones. I don't want them to be feeling they gotta read signs all the time. I want them to be there surrounded by the, the most beautiful of nature, trees, animals, birds, flowers, lawns that we can give them without any clutter and just make them realize, you know, the world could be like this and it's up to us to make it like this. All it is is about creating beauty and giving people a bit of a chance just to, you know, wake up. We had a fascinating thing once. No. 1, I don't really believe in focus groups and all that stuff, but there was a huge phase of it in the 90s, everybody had to have focus groups. You had to ask your customer what they wanted and all this sort of nonsense. I mean, yes, of course it works for some businesses, but I always felt very strongly what I wanted basically. And my father was the same. We want to create a really beautiful place with animals, with. And if focus groups tell us that we've got to have Mr. Blobby or Peppa Pig land, they can just take a running jump. But we did do a survey once and it was done by this very nice Australian woman. And it was a face to face, it was questionnaires. And I was skeptical because there was a wonderful place called Cricket St Thomas down in Somerset that had, had gone, become Mr. Blobby Lab and they become a TV based theme park having been a zoo. And their surveys were fantastic. They were telling me, you've got to do this. We get 90% approval rating, 100%, all this. And I thought it was just dreadful. And to cut a long story short, it tanked. And it occurred to me that basically the British are just so polite that when you confront them, did you enjoy your day? They go, oh yes, we loved it. Never going there again. Some nice person comes up with a clipboard, you just get rid of them as quick as you can. And anyway, this woman had, she was Australian and she was a woman. So when she was doing the questionnaire of people as they're leaving at the end of the day, there are no gender issues, so you're not a bloke. And there are no class issues because she's got an Aussie accent. So. And if I go up and ask people what are they having nights, they'll probably be terrified. Just go, yes, of course we did, but. And she said, she said we're going to build up to only one thing, which we have. We have soft questions that just make them feel at ease. And there's question number five is what one thing Would you say to recommend this place to your friends or something like that? Or one thing really sticks in your mind about this place and it's just trying to find that crucial thing. And I was thinking, yeah, okay, that sounds good. And I was a skeptic. But she said, she, you know, she said, we'll enjoy doing this and it'll be interesting. And I was thinking what one thing would be the gardens. That'd be nice. Or the rhinos or the lions, I mean, something. And the two things that came out way ahead of everything else was space and safety. And I remember thinking that's not what I was expecting. And you suddenly realized as you looked around on a busy summer's day, how few people visiting the wildlife park actually have that all the time in their day to day lives. Which on one level is incredibly sad. There's so many things that incredibly privileged people like you and me just take for granted. But for a lot of people, the real basics are not there. And for them to be in a place where their children are running around on the grass without the worry of stepping in a dog's mess or hypodermic or something, or if they lose their child, you know, because it's gone running off the playground, they're not going to have a panic attack. And it's. You suddenly saw your whole visitor base and your whole mission in a very different light. And it. I've never. That was a really telling.
- [49:55]
James Reed
So that was quite a while ago.
- [49:57]
Reggie Hayworth
And so, yeah, about 20 years ago.
- [49:59]
James Reed
So as well as the sort of aesthetic and the beauty of the place, you've built that.
- [50:03]
Reggie Hayworth
And it's. But it's the simplicity of that conclusion that I really love and the fact that so many people saw it in those terms and the fact that so many people don't have that in their lives. And we were talking about how do you. Have things changed? How have my management, have I changed over the last 30 years, life has just got faster and quicker and people are under more pressure. The whole digital age, the phone thing, I don't have a mobile phone, WhatsApp, all this stuff. Nightmare. The way people are just under such pressure to respond all the time in the workspace, to their colleagues, to their friends, to their loved ones, trying to get people to. If I don't mean de stress, they're not stressed, it's just how they are.
- [50:54]
James Reed
I was thinking the word decompress.
- [50:56]
Reggie Hayworth
Decompress. And I think we see that a lot at the wildlife park. I think, I really think people come, they meet the Family, they spread out. A picnic reception there is terrible and the phone gets left behind or, and they just soak up nature. And it's a cliche, but it's for a lot of them, I think it's one of the happiest days of the year.
- [51:19]
James Reed
Yeah. Okay, well, that's very interesting. I'm going to ask you two questions now, Reggie, that I ask everybody. The first is what gets you up on a Monday morning?
- [51:33]
Reggie Hayworth
Monday morning. Very often I have no idea what day of the week it is and I really mean that. When I'm at work, when I'm at home, I'm at work every day and every day is different. So Monday is as effortless to get to the wildlife park as any other day. I've never, I live about half a mile away and I've never been at home and not gone into the wildlife park during the day. I just can't avoid it. So it draws me in all the time. And I think the thing that probably gets me in there most is that walk around in the morning before the visitors come, wearing my little blue plastic glove to pick up any bits of litter and the changing seasons and the leaves on the ground at this time of year. And just thinking how beautiful this place is and also asking myself the question all the time as I walk around, how can we make it more beautiful?
- [52:45]
James Reed
Thank you. And I think I might know the answer to the next question I'm going to ask you because of what you just said, which is a question from my interview book, why you wish, which many people get asked in their interviews, job interviews is where do you see yourself in five years time?
- [52:59]
Reggie Hayworth
Oh, gosh. Well, I, I will still be picking up knitter for sure. I will still be going around the wildlife park every day that I'm at home. I, I'm definitely hoping that I will have let go of certain aspects of more, more aspects of the job, which I think I am managing to do. But I think my staff will probably not quite see it in those terms. They'll still think I'm there far too much.
- [53:42]
James Reed
It's already literally picking up the rubbish. Well, good for you. Thank you very much. Thanks for coming to talk to me today. So enjoyed our conversation.
- [53:49]
Reggie Hayworth
Thank you, James, it's been great.
- [53:56]
James Reed
Thank you to Reggie for joining me on All About Business. If you'd like to find out more about the Cotswold Wildlife park, Visit Cotswold Wildlife Park.com I'm your host, James Reed, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reid's environmental initiatives, Visit our website, reed.com all links are in the show notes. See you next time.