14. Ruby Wax: Is your workforce frazzled? The science of mindfulness and increasing productivity

Summary

Podcast Summary: James Reed: All About Business – Episode 14 with Ruby Wax

Title: Ruby Wax: Is Your Workforce Frazzled? The Science of Mindfulness and Increasing Productivity
Release Date: February 10, 2025
Host: James Reed, Chairman and CEO of Reed Group
Guest: Ruby Wax, OBE – Comedian, Writer, Mental Health Advocate, Founder of Frazzled Cafe

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Introduction

In Episode 14 of James Reed: All About Business, host James Reed engages in a candid conversation with Ruby Wax, a renowned comedian, writer, and mental health advocate. The episode delves into the pervasive issue of workplace stress, exploring the science of mindfulness and strategies to boost productivity by fostering a supportive and authentic work environment.

Ruby Wax’s Journey from Entertainment to Mental Health Advocacy

Ruby Wax shares her transformative journey, transitioning from a successful career in entertainment to becoming a prominent mental health advocate. She discusses the importance of reinvention in maintaining a timeless personal brand and how her upbringing as the daughter of immigrant refugees instilled in her the resilience to continually adapt.

Ruby Wax [02:23]: "It has to change, has to continue to reinvent," highlighting the necessity of evolution in both personal and professional realms.

Understanding the Frazzled Workforce

The conversation centers on the alarming statistic that over a quarter of the UK's employees experience negative well-being due to work-related stress. Ruby Wax introduces the concept of a "frazzled" workforce, distinguishing between general stress and deeper mental health issues.

Ruby Wax [12:30]: "We are all frazzled. The culture is frazzled," emphasizing that frazzledness is a widespread cultural phenomenon rather than an individual flaw.

The Role of Mindfulness in Enhancing Productivity

Ruby Wax demystifies mindfulness, presenting it as a practical tool rather than an abstract concept. She explains how mindfulness helps individuals take the temperature of their internal state, enabling better self-awareness and emotional regulation.

Ruby Wax [04:57]: "It's a real way of taking the temperature inside rather than just outside," underscoring mindfulness as an actionable strategy for self-assessment and management.

Creating Community Within Organizations

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on building authentic communities within the workplace. Ruby Wax advocates for creating safe spaces where employees can openly share their experiences without judgment, fostering trust and empathy.

Ruby Wax [18:36]: "Create little communities," suggesting that smaller, supportive groups within larger organizations can significantly enhance employee well-being.

Authenticity and Compassion in Leadership

Ruby emphasizes the importance of authenticity in leadership, encouraging managers to be open about their own struggles to foster a compassionate and trusting environment. She argues that showing vulnerability can strengthen connections and improve overall workplace morale.

Ruby Wax [11:10]: "Compassion is the only thing that sells," highlighting the power of empathy in leadership and business interactions.

Practical Strategies for Managers

The episode provides actionable advice for business leaders to support a frazzled workforce:

1. Lead by Example: Leaders must prioritize their own mental fitness to effectively support their teams.
2. Foster Authentic Communication: Encourage open dialogues about personal well-being and create spaces for employees to express themselves.
3. Implement Frazzled Cafe Programs: Establish dedicated spaces or virtual platforms where employees can share and connect, reducing feelings of isolation.
4. Promote Mental Fitness: Offer resources such as cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) and mindfulness training to help employees manage stress.

Ruby Wax [34:41]: "Start at the top," reinforcing that organizational change begins with leadership commitment.

The Impact of Technology and Remote Work

The conversation touches on the challenges posed by remote work and digital communication tools, which can exacerbate feelings of disconnection and frazzledness. Ruby Wax advocates for intentional efforts to build virtual communities that replicate the support systems of physical workplaces.

Ruby Wax [53:38]: "Where's your community? You know, On Zoom," criticizing the lack of genuine connection in remote work settings.

Building Trust Through Transparency

Ruby Wax illustrates the importance of transparency in business operations. She cites examples such as Patagonia’s authentic engagement with employees and customers, which builds lasting trust and loyalty.

Ruby Wax [23:21]: "Be transparent about what your company's doing," emphasizing honesty as a cornerstone of trust.

Conclusion and Future Outlook

As the conversation wraps up, both James Reed and Ruby Wax reflect on the importance of novelty and continuous personal growth in maintaining a dynamic and resilient workforce. Ruby Wax shares her vision for the future, including expanding the Frazzled Cafe initiative online to reach a broader audience.

Ruby Wax [56:09]: "Everything's a surprise," highlighting her commitment to embracing change and fostering an environment where creativity and connection thrive.

Final Thoughts

Episode 14 of All About Business offers invaluable insights into managing workplace stress through mindfulness, authentic communication, and community-building. Ruby Wax provides a compelling argument for prioritizing mental well-being as a fundamental aspect of business strategy, making this episode a must-listen for business leaders aiming to cultivate a healthier and more productive work environment.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ruby Wax [02:23]: "It has to change, has to continue to reinvent."
• Ruby Wax [04:57]: "It's a real way of taking the temperature inside rather than just outside."
• Ruby Wax [11:10]: "Compassion is the only thing that sells."
• Ruby Wax [18:36]: "Create little communities."
• Ruby Wax [23:21]: "Be transparent about what your company's doing."
• Ruby Wax [34:41]: "Start at the top."
• Ruby Wax [53:38]: "Where's your community? You know, On Zoom."

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Further Resources:

• Ruby Wax’s Website: rubywax.net
• Frazzled Cafe: frazzlecafe.org

Transcript

[James Reed]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. Over a quarter of the UK's employees experience negative well being because of work, so how can you improve communication while supporting colleagues who are struggling? Joining me today on All About Business is Ruby Wax, obe. A comedian, writer and mental health advocate. Ruby provides businesses with leadership training, helping them build trust and rapport among colleagues. She also founded the Frazzled Cafe back in 2017. This is a community where anyone can talk about their experiences in a supportive, judgment, free space. So today on All About Business, I couldn't be happier than to welcome Ruby Wax, my friend and neighbor and collaborator on several projects. And, Ruby, I invited you to come and talk to us on All About Business because you.

[Ruby Wax]

Which ones do we collaborate on? When you took me to. Can I say it?

[James Reed]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

To your horsey people, people who do the hunt, and it was a drag queen contest.

[James Reed]

Oh, yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

And they were magnificent. As women, as men. I don't know.

[James Reed]

Well, yeah, that was a very good, good example.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, you do take me to some.

[James Reed]

The drag hunt. Yeah, that was one. And then we went by. So, Ruby, the reason I asked you is obviously you're in the entertainment business, but that does not do you justice, I don't think, because.

[Ruby Wax]

Thank you.

[James Reed]

Way beyond that. You're, you're in the funny business, you, you're in the book business, you're in the wellbeing business, you're in the training business. I mean, you've, you've got your own personal brand. I mean, you're big in business, in my view. And I want to talk to you about that because, Ruby Wax, the brand has, has a timeless quality. I mean, you, you've continued to reinvent yourself and, and people know who you are and they continue to be interested, engaged and love you as a brand almost, I feel. So.

[Ruby Wax]

I think you're right. It has to do with reinvention because you're pegged at a certain point, you know, when you're in first gear and you're. Nobody's going to get in your way. That could end really quickly, you know, because you have a short life in television. I remember once John Cleese fell over, you know, in a supermarket. He had a Heart attack. And everybody walked around him and clapped, thinking it was a prank.

[Unknown]

Oh, no, Really?

[James Reed]

I didn't know that story.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, but, I mean, but he's still.

[James Reed]

Alive, so someone must have felt somebody.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, well, thinking it was a prank. Yeah, but you don't want to be thought of as a. As a stereotype. You got to break that one. Even though I was a brand and it got me a job, it wouldn't have lasted. A brand doesn't last.

[James Reed]

It has to change, has to continue to reinvent.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Which you've done so brilliantly.

[Ruby Wax]

I was thrown out early from the Royal Shakespeare Company, mainly because I couldn't act. So that would have ended the career. There were all possible ends, but then if you switch gears, switch gears. And I think I learned that from my parents, who are immigrants, refugees. They had to keep switching countries. So we're used to putting our pianos on our backs and scuttling to the next place. We're not sentimental, like, oh, I did this all my life, or this dirt represents where I lived. We don't fight for our corner. We just move quickly. And so I think I got that from my parents. It's in my DNA. So once television was over for me, I did 25 years, and I was sure Louis Theroux stole my job.

[James Reed]

Louis Theroux stole my job.

[Ruby Wax]

Louis Theroux stole my job. And then he interviewed me about two years ago, and he was a really nice guy. He didn't steal it at all. And he said, why don't we put your shows all together on tv? So they did. But the point is, I wasn't auditioning to get my job back. That would have been a low card to play. They put my shows on. Yeah, they put the best on. There have been terrible ones. Ones where I've hidden in my house behind furniture. They were so awful. But the point is, I didn't get sucked back into begging again. You should know when your moment is out, when your light's gone out, and then look inside and say, what is the real interest? And I'm in that position now, again, you have to look in and say, what's interesting for me. If you're lucky enough to not have to earn money to keep your family alive. And I'm in that. I'm so lucky. I could just, you know.

[James Reed]

Yeah, no, that's interesting. So you say, look inside. So when you want to make a transition or a switch or that's what you do.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, you have to.

[James Reed]

What's that? Talk to me about that.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, because I do. Mindfulness, it is. It's not anything spooky or you're not sitting on some gluten free cushion. It's a real way of taking the temperature inside rather than just outside. Like what's the state? And if you're shaky or you think this is really. There's something. It's different than just being frazzled. It's a niggling that your life isn't satisfying anymore. I think it's called going into the second half. Is that now it's no longer relevant to find an identity, to find a personality. To find. Which I did. I found a personality and boy, did I hold onto it to my detriment sometimes because people come up and they're laughing and it's no longer me because I switched gears so quickly. And I went to Oxford to learn cognitive therapy and neuroscience and mindfulness. I could switch it really quickly and it meant I could find satisfaction in going to Oxford. In a way, it had more dignity than television.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

So the jump was agonizing. But then once you do it and you find your milieu again, then you can go on creating.

[James Reed]

But you've written several books. About seven. Seven now. Yeah. And they're best sellers. I mean, these are excellent books. And you also, you did the One Woman's Show. I'm not as well as I thought I was.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Which I saw. Which was brilliant. Tell us a little bit about that. Because that, I mean, that really encapsulates your journey in a way.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, that's the journey now. I mean, I started off, I used my dissertation from Oxford. I did it, I, I got all the abdicators. Is that what their names are?

[James Reed]

Abdicators? Yeah, or adjudicators. I don't know.

[Ruby Wax]

Adjudicator. Yeah, I got all the adjudicators. See, a little bit of dyslexia never hurt anybody. It's good for comedy, but it's crap for.

[James Reed]

This is just a long word for people at Oxford.

[Ruby Wax]

So they, rather than writing a paper, I mean, I had to do a dissertation, I did a show. So they graded the show and I got, I got a, you know, first class degree. First class degree. And then I took it and I put the comedy in and then I turned it. So I, I toured it. So it's like killing two birds with one stone or many birds with one stone. And so I, I took my old job, which was comedy, and that's only because I speak dyslexia. So sometimes I'm being very serious, but the words come out In a jumbled way. It's like playing jazz instead of a symphony. And people think it's comedy. Well, then, you know, it's comedy and you start brushing up on it. You polish it and polish it.

[James Reed]

But, I mean, you are known for comedy. I mean, you're a funny person. I mean, people. You make people. I mean, I've been in many situations where you've made the. Yeah, people in the room laugh.

[Ruby Wax]

Ruby, they're paying for that ticket. Yeah, they're paying for that ticket.

[James Reed]

But, I mean, you're certainly good at that.

[Ruby Wax]

I never, though, just did, you know, hey, funny thing about my plant or anybody here from Sheboygan, I didn't do stand up. I did. Alan Rickman, my mentor from the Royal Shakespeare Company, taught me. He said, do a narrative so that if nobody laughs, you're still doing a play, you're on track. And so he taught me for 30 years, he said, stop looking so desperate.

[James Reed]

That's so interesting. Do a narrative.

[Ruby Wax]

Do a narrative. Yeah, look for laughs.

[Unknown]

Right.

[James Reed]

So you can just carry on with your narrative if they're laughing or not.

[Ruby Wax]

No, it's a story. It's got a beginning, middle and an end. And he made the most bizarre decisions. There was one show I did where. Where nobody knew who I was. It was really early on. So I pretended I couldn't get in the dressing room because somebody had locked me out. So I had the audience helping me banging on the door to get in there so I could do my makeup. Finally, I couldn't get in. So I went into the middle of the stage with a chair and started doing my makeup and ironing my clothes and setting fire to those curlers, you know, so I could curl my hair. Meanwhile, I'm talking the whole time, and it's funny stuff, but it looks like somebody.

[James Reed]

I can see it in my mind and I can imagine that was very funny.

[Ruby Wax]

And then finally, when I was fully dressed, the lights went out because the. The crew said, that's it. So I finished my show outside the Donmar, singing, lip syncing to Perry Como. And every night the police came and took me away and 300 people applauded. That was my show. Every night we'd have to get out of prison. But that was Rickman's idea.

[James Reed]

But that. Guess you. That was his idea.

[Ruby Wax]

That was his.

[James Reed]

I'm just thinking how you apply that. You could apply that into all sorts of situations.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, you go sideways. Novelty is when people's brains, the neurons start shifting. If it's the same old, same old, and you're dead. You pass that deadness onto the next person. And I really think, again, with mindfulness, you take the temperature inside, read the other person, because the only way you can read another person is by reading yourself and then switch gears. Novelty is what makes people go, aha. This is an original. We only want people who think out of the box. And yet businesses and schools crush that. You know, the fear levels are so high that nobody dares to free fall and you gotta freefall.

[James Reed]

So businesses and schools crush that. That's. That should concern us because what you're saying is novelty is the basis of creativity and a lot of.

[Ruby Wax]

A lot of businesses, I suppose, just keep their boots on and do the same thing they've always done. But I think companies now have to reinvent again because your jobs are going to be replaced pretty quickly.

[James Reed]

So you've got to think, Ruby. Yeah, that's true.

[Ruby Wax]

Not you. Maybe not you.

[James Reed]

I think it might be true a lot of jobs.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, you've got to jump sideways and think, what's. What's the human quality that I can bring to this? What can't be replaced? And I think something like comedy can't. They can't do it. And I've tried it on ChatGPT, they cannot create that rhythm. It's genuine. So I think if you're a salesman or you're trying to get work, you really have to think out of the box what's going to grab that person if you're deadly, it's like auditioning for an acting job. If you're deadly, read it in the other person and switch gears really quickly and tell them something about yourself. I mean, we've dehumanized people, for example. Do you want me to just be honest?

[James Reed]

Yeah, please.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, James is my friend, so I didn't want to turn him down today, but I do have, and I haven't had it for five years. I do have a bit of depression, so this is really hard to do. And I don't know if I'm making sense, but I'm looking at your eyes and they're engaged, so I know I'm still on track. But I think if you were in business, if you had the nerve to say, this is my state, then people go, oh, I see. I'm not going to judge her as I know her. I'm going to switch tracks and go, oh, this person has a problem. And I think it takes a lot of chutzpah to do that. But it makes you like me more. It makes you more. It Brings out the compassion. And compassion is the only thing that sells.

[James Reed]

We're delighted that you're listening to this episode. Hit the follow button so that we can continue to bring you the best business insight and actionable advice to help your business and or career.

[Ruby Wax]

Can you tell I'm depressed?

[James Reed]

Well, you told me you were.

[Ruby Wax]

I know, but look at my eyes. You can always tell in the eyes.

[James Reed]

Yeah. Yeah. They don't look the same.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, they're slightly dead.

[James Reed]

Well, they're just a bit sort of.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Misled. But I can't. You're not behaving as if you're very depressed, but. No, but I said you are, and I have no reason to.

[Ruby Wax]

But I think in business is that understand the difference between frazzled and somebody who's got an illness.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Ruby Wax]

You know, because when they've got an illness, they've got to deal with it in a really different way.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[James Reed]

So talk me through that. So if someone presents as you think they might be depressed, if they're their manager or your colleague, how can we help them? What should we be doing?

[Ruby Wax]

Well, every case is different.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

That's the hard part about it, really.

[Ruby Wax]

I know. Well, HR ain't gonna know, you know, I mean, it's your job to say. I see the eyes. They've been like that for a while. And maybe somebody writes or somebody who's close to them is notified they need medication. I mean, I'm from that school.

[James Reed]

So there's a person sitting next to you, you're worried about them. You suggest they go and see your doctor.

[Ruby Wax]

Maybe you say. And go out and, you know, have a drink with them or whatever and say, here's what's going on for me. What's going on for you. But go to you first. And if they ask for your help, take them by the hand and get them to a doctor. Because mental illness doesn't go away by wishful thinking. It really needs medication.

[James Reed]

Well, no, thank you for saying that because I. I would identify your authenticity as a person as one of the things I like most about you and I think really attracts a lot of people to you as Ruby Wax, the brand.

[Ruby Wax]

Usually I talk about mental illness. I'm not really mentally ill now.

[James Reed]

You don't feel very well.

[Ruby Wax]

I. I have the beginnings of it. And if somebody.

[James Reed]

Thank you for coming to talk to us.

[Ruby Wax]

Oh, no, I would only do it for you.

[James Reed]

Well, that's.

[Ruby Wax]

Otherwise I'd lie and say I had pneumonia.

[James Reed]

No. Well, thank you for that, but I don't want you to continue if you.

[Ruby Wax]

Don' no, no, I can continue because I like you and your eyes are engaged. So you're pulling me out of myself.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Ruby Wax]

And I think that's what in business, help the other person. You know, everybody's. Maybe one in four have a mental illness, but four and four are frazzled. And frazzled is a neurobiological word. I keep saying it. It's not a Hairdo phrase.

[James Reed]

Go on, explain.

[Ruby Wax]

Frazzled.

[James Reed]

Let's do the four in four, and then we'll do the one in four. And how we should help and engage with both.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, we're all frazzled. You know, the culture is frazzled. So you're not your fault. There's so much. It's surrounded by weapons of mass distraction that you don't.

[James Reed]

Weapons of mass distraction. I like that. So go on. What's so frazzled? Because.

[Ruby Wax]

Because you're stressed about stress. I mean, this is a new phenomena. People in the past, I've said this before, didn't die of stress. They died of old age, about 12 and a half bad teeth. But it wasn't stress. We're supposed to be stressed. That's what gives you your mojo. And then when a predator or something came along, you'd have to take them on. But once the incident was over, you'd go back to being cool again and eat whatever your buffalo burgers around the fire. Now, we're always wired. The minute one thing ends, the next thing has to replace it. We're addicted to the adrenaline. It's so addictive and it's delicious. Like, nobody gets addicted to kale. But I'm not saying, you know, I don't want.

[James Reed]

We're looking for the next buzz.

[Ruby Wax]

We want the next buzz. And so the fear starts to taste good and it starts to taste normal. And people show off how busy they are, like, that's a badge of honor. You know, I get in taxis, they say, busy. Like they're going to throw me out if I'm not. So I said, I've just had a quadruple bypass. I'm on life support. They go, you must be doing so well. God forbid I say, I'm not doing anything. I think we are. Part of it is not being authentic. And I don't know where that fits in in business. But I'll tell you, you make somebody's heart beat if you tell them the truth about yourself or you get the truth out of them, you know, by saying, I don't know, something truthful about you, that makes you frazzled. You know, you couldn't find a parking space that's a little shallow. But maybe something about your home life. Maybe it's hard to keep up with a family life and doing business. Just something that gives people a clue that not all is well in the state of Denmark.

[James Reed]

And that brings them closer.

[Ruby Wax]

Totally everything.

[Unknown]

Right.

[James Reed]

And a lot of people are worried about doing that, aren't they? Because I think they fear they might be sort of pushed away. But you're saying the opposite happens.

[Ruby Wax]

That, yeah, we were born to bond. We were born to bond. And it was this sharing of ideas of throwing it in the pot. It's not saying I'm miserable. It's just saying, you know, I run Frazzle Cafe. And the idea is that people. I always say, what's the weather condition going on inside of you? And people are so satisfied to say, it's stormy. My life is, you know, smashing against the rocks. And you can see as they say it, I'm not saying you do this in business, but their eyes settle down, the calmness, because people want to be heard. If you want to talk to somebody about a job, ask them about their personal life, get to know them, and you'll really see the person to be.

[James Reed]

Careful doing that these days in job interviews.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, but do it slowly. Yeah, do it slowly. I mean, you're not going to go, are you depressed? You're going to say, you know, what's going on? What disturbs you? Here's what goes on for me. You've got to come at it. That's what I did with my interviews. I said I told them my stuff first and then they told me theirs. And there was an intimacy, and then I didn't mention it when we were on tv. I never deceived them.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Ruby Wax]

But I knew everything about them. And so that's what made our eyes lock.

[Unknown]

Right.

[James Reed]

So you said four out of four of us.

[Ruby Wax]

Am I jumping around too much?

[James Reed]

Okay, that's really interesting. I don't think I'm fully engaged. So four out of four you say are frazzled. And then you said one out of four. More than that. Anxious, depressed, perhaps.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, anxiety is frazzled. You know, as I said before. Yeah. It's that voice that says, I shouldn't be, nobody likes me, I'm not good enough. And that's fed in by the culture. I always think it's not your fault. You're comparing yourself with the rest of the world rather than it used to just be the village.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Ruby Wax]

You know, you. You didn't pull your weight. You'd want to Pull your weight because you didn't want to let the team down. Now where's the team? The team is worldwide and you're never going to win, so.

[James Reed]

So the fact that we're no longer in a village. Well, makes it almost impossible. Does it?

[Ruby Wax]

But you, you know, the idea is to create little communities, which you could do at Reed or you could do in any business, create that safety. But I'm jumping around.

[James Reed]

That's really interesting. So I'm really interested in that. So you're saying you should try and create little communities.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, because that's all people want.

[James Reed]

Have you seen how people do that? Or have you got any advice for people who might be sort of interested in doing better in that respect?

[Ruby Wax]

Well, I do talk to businesses and I. We sometimes build frazzled cafes and it replaces a smoking room. Remember when people got in there and they. You know, we've got a sort of.

[James Reed]

Bus stop in the car park outside.

[Ruby Wax]

Our office, you know, but a place maybe where they feel safe. Speak. Or we could lead them, you know, with Frazzle Cafe. But people need to feel like they're connected. You know, they used to do spitball fighting or whatever you guys did on weekends, you know, color. You still colors. That doesn't really do it. That's just bringing out the boyishness.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

But I think somewhere you may start with that, but end with people sitting around and saying, here's what's going on. I mean, it sounds very touchy feeling, but it works in businesses. I did that at the. With the civil service, right? Yeah, the senior civil service.

[James Reed]

How did it go?

[Ruby Wax]

It went really well. I said, get out of the suits. Get out of the suits. Read yourself emotionally. And I told him how to do that. And then socially, you know, manage yourself, and then you can manage other people. Give yourself some.

[James Reed]

You know, I always think in leadership, the first person we got to learn to lead is oneself.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, what is. Yeah, you've got to lead all this, but don't imitate the next guy. No, I mean, it's hard to say, be true to yourself, because most people don't know who their self is. And it's not taught in school.

[James Reed]

No. So be true to yourself. So how do you do that? How do you find out who you are?

[Ruby Wax]

I don't think there's a black box, like at the end of a plane crash, you know, and here's where you are. You're many different facets, but it's important to know, oh, I'm in this personality now. In this one, I'm scared now. This pertinent person intimidates me. Just being aware of it lightens the load. You know, sometimes a kid went up to me once and said, I'm really nervous. Meeting you immediately lightened the load.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Reed]

You see that with performers quite often. I. I was at the Other Voices Music Festival in Dingle the other day, and they were, yeah, I'm shag off. And they. But several of the performers in the little church said, I'm feeling really nervous. And they immediately got sort of warm response from the audience is applauding them and saying, go for it. And. Yeah, and you could see that they were encouraged and the relationship was set. You know, they're connected just by saying that in a way, which was interesting.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, Just state where you are. You don't have to go on about.

[James Reed]

I would have never been taught to get up and say, I'm feeling a bit nervous.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, you're the leader, you know, I guess you have to be invincible.

[James Reed]

I don't know about that.

[Ruby Wax]

I don't know about that. But, you know, the next way of. The next thing is. I worked at Patagonia.

[James Reed]

It Great, great company.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, that's like the first.

[James Reed]

Well, it's a fantastic core company.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

And there were 18,000 people auditioned to be an intern there. The. The atmosphere is unbelievable. If they want to go surfing, they can go surfing. They all have to have a cause. So they choose. You know, it could be women getting business together in India. Ben and Jerry's did Refugees, Dove Soap, you know, together with the groups and said, what means a lot to you? And the girl had body dysmorphia when she was young, so she created that image of all different shapes. And they go into schools and talk to kids with body dysmorphia. So everybody has a reason for being there, way beyond just doing, you know, the regular job. But I've never seen people just bathing in that place. They didn't leave a lot of super engaged. Super engaged. And the guy who led it was totally charismatic. You know, they just started off, they wanted to do snow picks, to mountain climb, and then it just grew and grew. And now they're so authentic. They come out and say in the newspaper, don't buy this product again. You know, just do it once. If something happens to it, send it back. We'll fix it. Now, nobody sends it back, but they keep buying and buying and buying. I mean, I'm not saying that's a clever ploy, but one woman called up and she said, my cat peed on my fleece. What do I do? He said, what kind of cat is it?

[James Reed]

Did you get a new fleece?

[Ruby Wax]

She got a new cat, I got a new cat.

[James Reed]

That's good.

[Ruby Wax]

But, you know, there.

[James Reed]

So you're talking here about the sort of connecting with people in all sorts of human ways and being.

[Ruby Wax]

Being transparent about what your company's doing.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

You know, so they can trust you on the good stuff, but tell them the bad stuff, too. I don't know if this is applicable to business, but to me it's applicable to life, and life is business.

[James Reed]

I agree with that. No, I think being sort of honest and transparent is really important.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Because no one expects it to be going well all the time, because that's not what happens. We have good days and bad days, good years and bad years. Sometimes business is booming, sometimes it's not. So I think that's. Having that relationship of trust is so important with people in the organization. I asked the question of one of our great authors the other day, and I. I was concerned about AI writing novels.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

And.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Would people read novels written by AI? This is a threat to everyone in the creative world. I suppose you say AI can't do comedy, which is good, but. Yeah, it could probably write a story. And. And I asked him whether he was concerned about that. It's Michael Frayne. It's very good.

[Ruby Wax]

Right.

[James Reed]

Brilliant man. And. And he said no, he wasn't concerned about it. And I asked him why not? He said, because people don't care about the computer, they care about other people. So his thesis was, we'll only read a book written by a person because.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. How would you know? That's the thing is.

[James Reed]

Well, that's what I'm worried about. How would you know?

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

In the end, you know, how. How do you know?

[Ruby Wax]

A pop song, I suppose, but a real. You know, those of us who have a little. A few IQ points, there's. There'll be some feeling that's missing.

[James Reed]

You think so?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

I mean, now, now, but who knows in the future?

[James Reed]

I mean, but there is some music that sounds pretty good, that's created.

[Ruby Wax]

I think you can do it with music.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

So if you can do it, music, maybe you can't. Maybe your narrative could be created by AI, But I think the point about not care, but about caring about other people, that connection with people is really important because that is what will lead the change. Ultimately, you know, the technology will support people to do new things, but they're still going to want to connect with each other.

[Ruby Wax]

And you have to practice it. None of this comes naturally, you know, So I get, you know, if I get in a taxi, and not all the time, but find out about him and watch how smooth that ride is, you know, and you can get them off.

[James Reed]

So you always ask them about themselves?

[Ruby Wax]

Not always, but I sort of do. And it's remarkable sometimes interesting things you've heard.

[James Reed]

What did you hear this morning you came?

[Ruby Wax]

Oh, he was head of. It's nice. He shared. He had a fever and was really ill. Oh, no. And I thought, what am I sitting in this car?

[James Reed]

Well, that's useful to know that you might want to.

[Ruby Wax]

Then I said, you know, I had a migraine. I didn't.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Ruby Wax]

But he started to have sympathy for me and then said, did I want to stop somewhere for coffee? You know, I started off really cold and I thought by the end, and it makes it like there's a hit in your heart when you connect.

[James Reed]

When we went to Dubai all those years ago, Ruby, I've got this recollection of you sort of blagging your way into the presidential suite of the Burj Al Khalifa. And you've got this talent for sort of opening doors, connecting with people. You've talked a little bit about it, you know, chatting to people on the way here. And the guy in the cab who drove you, what was. How do you do that? Because I think a lot of people, a lot of people in business, you want to make the sale, want to build a relationship, want to sort of get out on the front foot and get known. I mean, you've been brilliant at this in your career. Any tips for people?

[Ruby Wax]

Well, again, read your read. Read your. What do you call it? Your read the piece of meat in front of you. You know, at first it was very.

[James Reed]

He was very literal, you know what I mean?

[Ruby Wax]

He was very self possessed, kind of blown up like Buzz Lightyear, you're not getting in here. That was his whole thing. So I think we started to talk about what you're talking about.

[James Reed]

The doorman at the Burj Khalifa. Yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

The manager. Really?

[James Reed]

Oh, the manager. Okay.

[Ruby Wax]

Never get in here. And just remember we started around. Just, you know, how do you get the job? What's, you know, what's the job entail? Now he thinks, oh, she's interested in me. That's all people want is to be interested. Didn't argue and say, how dare you? Just got interested in him and then kind of saw that he may be a little bit gay. And then I dropped the bombshell. Do you Know, I write absolutely fabulous. We were in that room in two seconds.

[James Reed]

Oh, right.

[Ruby Wax]

But if I hadn't seen that spark.

[James Reed]

You know, you'd have to find another one.

[Ruby Wax]

I'd have to find another one. Yeah, but, you know, soften them up so you don't write it. I help write it.

[James Reed]

Yeah, but you're looking for those. But you're looking for those connections all.

[Ruby Wax]

The time, just scuttling in there. I mean, we might not have found it, but. Bingo. That was.

[James Reed]

Was unforgettable. A tour of the presidential suite. I'll never forget it.

[Ruby Wax]

It was every color palette in these.

[James Reed]

Yeah, it was incredible. It was extraordinary.

[Ruby Wax]

It made Cleopatra's, you know, bathtub look like. Yeah, yeah.

[James Reed]

A puddle, like a puritanical place.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

That was interesting. So. So Frazzled Cafe. This is. This is. You founded Frazzle Cafe, the charity. It started off. You started, I think, having meetings where people would gather in Marks and Spencers.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. I told Marks and Spencers again. I. I was doing a talk because I talked to a lot of businesses that I. My dream was to have. Create community where people. I was basing it on aa, but because where. I love it, where people just speak from the heart and everybody.

[James Reed]

Yeah, it's a great organization. Aa.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. And then you have cigarettes and cookies. What more do you want? So I wanted that, and I said, I'm going to ask Starbucks. Well, they didn't like that. They said, why don't you use Marks and Spencer?

[James Reed]

They said that, didn't they?

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

And Marks and Spencer said, well, good idea. Did they?

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, they said, why are you going to Starbucks? So take our.

[James Reed]

Yeah, because they've got cafes, haven't they?

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, yeah. But, you know, play it that way. Like, I don't need you.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

You know, never look desperate.

[James Reed]

Not quite.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. Let people come to you. That's another thing.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Ruby Wax]

Rickman taught me that don't go to. Don't get that excited, puppy dog look.

[James Reed]

So you got into Marks and Spencer's and you. So what, people would come to the cafe in Marks?

[Ruby Wax]

Well, we'd. We'd invite people and we check out, you know, what their condition was. We. We're not therapists. We don't take on people in the midst of a depression or, you know, whatever. We tell you where to get help if you do come to us. And there'd be about 12 to 15 people, and they'd come in all terrified, you know, scared after the shop shut. And then by the end of the meeting, because people felt. Heard, they felt cared for they'd walk out like kind of this charm bracelet of compassion. And some of them are still friends. So we created community up and down the country. And then because of COVID we had to go online. And I run it now every two weeks, but every time I think, why am I doing this? And every time I finish one, I know why. It's probably what people got in church or what they got in the old town hall or the Quakers. Is it because everybody's so giving and they're so listening? When you get people's total focus again, you get a hit that you could carry with you. People were saying, even when I'm not on here, I know it's here. Whatever you have to do to make people's hearts build up as much as their brains.

[James Reed]

What are the sort of characteristics of someone who is frazzled? What do you see?

[Ruby Wax]

I think they know. I think they know, but they avoid, because it's so shaming, because we're supposed to have a stiff upper lip and get on with it. But it's where there's a red mist in your head and you can't think clearly. Where everything is. You know, we're not supposed to multitask unless it's an emergency, but not constantly. And to learn when to. What's your tipping point? And that's what I do in a lot of businesses. You know, not Everybody can work 48 hours a day, have 13 kids, make a muffin and jog at 2 in the morning. Not everybody. You know, maybe some people were born for it. So at a certain point, you're not. You're not productive anymore. So what do you do when you hit that point and you have choices? You have choices. I mean, again, let's call it brain fitness or mental fitness. You can think that way. You can excuse yourself because if you know you're frazzled and you're going in a meeting, you're going to lock antlers just like animals, and you're not going to get anywhere. I wish companies would just raise a white flag and go, I can't do this now. See you in five minutes. But it's recognizing. I also describe in great detail what stress is, how it affects them, where it comes from, the nature of it. The good news, why we're supposed to have the real fact is four thoughts are negative out of five because we needed to know quickly what's dangerous, what isn't. So forgive yourself on that one. But we do live in a culture now that's very ill. It's very ill. We need to know more and more about who's in trouble. We need to see more details on the news that can become addictive. So if you can cut your addictions down around work, you have more chance of having space in your brain when you get to work.

[James Reed]

Four thoughts out of five are negative.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. Somebody said we're Teflon for positive thoughts and Velcro for negative ones. And again, this is. I talk a lot about evolution. We needed certain things. We needed to understand how to distinguish what's a snake, what's a stick. So some things are left over from the past. They work for us. So we should I try to explain what comes with the human package and why suddenly we're in a culture where we're not supposed to be flawed, we're totally flawed. We, you know, we're part reptile, part mammal, part human. So they're always fighting against each other.

[James Reed]

Yeah. I think it's helpful to think we're totally flawed as a starting point. Totally flawed lowers expectations, personally, for me, at least. And then you progress from there.

[Ruby Wax]

And what is our. You know, where. We're at war with ourselves. Otherwise we project war onto the world.

[James Reed]

And you said the culture's sick. I mean, what do you see in organizations? Like, I know you work with organizations where you. You're trying to help people with mindfulness and managing their relationships at work.

[Ruby Wax]

It's not just mindfulness. It's understanding that you. You have to. The authenticity.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Ruby Wax]

The understanding how to manage yourself and then manage other people.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Ruby Wax]

You know what we're talking about? Neural wi fi. What state are you in? A parent can't teach their kids unless they're the walk. They walk the talk.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Ruby Wax]

So somehow, again, if you. If you don't want to do this, mental fitness community will take care of it too. Because we, we, as I said before, we create each other's states.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

So the manager should understand how they come to work is going to zip out and everybody's going to catch it like a virus. So do something about it. Either state your case or walk out of the room. Or say, listen, I'll be back in five minutes. I know. I don't know where I parked my car. You know, I. I'm frazzled. Just say the word. Get a T shirt. I'm frazzled. That's so. That'll defrazzle you.

[James Reed]

Right?

[Ruby Wax]

Just say it.

[James Reed]

Do you sell those on your website?

[Ruby Wax]

No, but I should.

[James Reed]

You should. I was just thinking that some T shirts. I'm frazzled. Okay. So I run A business ruby and. And many people listening will be managers and business leaders. Where do you start if you feel your workforce maybe as you're saying, we all are frazzled.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

What are the. What are the things we need to be thinking about and putting in place to improve that for people, improve people's experience at work and more generally?

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, a lot of. But they called me in when there's, you know, there's going to be great change because people are afraid of that. I think again, it's about explaining that everything's in constant change. Uncertainty is part of our nature. But again, if you're the manager, you've got to really look into yourself. You can't heal a company unless whoever's in charge understands what they're bringing to the table. Then you can fix everybody. But be the example.

[James Reed]

Starts at the top.

[Ruby Wax]

Starts at the top. It'll start at the bottom if they're going to revolt, but otherwise start it revolutions.

[James Reed]

So, yeah, so if you want to, if you want to have a happy shit, you've got to be in good shape yourself.

[Ruby Wax]

You got to be in good shape and find out what's, you know, what's true to you. How much can you tell them about yourself? I worked at Deutsche bank and there were people throwing up in the bathroom. I mean, literally, it was covered. But the head of Barclays said he had depression. And watch this space. There was such compassion. Right, so it's the CEOs set different examples.

[Unknown]

Right.

[James Reed]

That's interesting. So, yeah, so, so what you're saying actually for people, managers or people in business is you've got to work on yourself. You've got to make sure you're mentally fit, that you're.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. And that you're tuned into other people.

[James Reed]

You're tuned in. That you're connected, that you are part of a community, that you're creating a community.

[Ruby Wax]

Give them something. You know, as I said, Unilever, have, have meetings where they find out what the different managers are interested in, genuinely interested in. And maybe that could spread to who their employees are.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

And say, are you really interested in this? You know, just take it a step further.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

Genuinely, are you interested? Did anything happen in your life to make you interested?

[James Reed]

So now you, you've continued it online, haven't you? Or have you gone back to Marks and Spencer's?

[Ruby Wax]

No, no, it's online and we're starting.

[James Reed]

And more people can join. A great thing about digital is it you can make it bigger and we.

[Ruby Wax]

Have more facilitators and we're open on.

[James Reed]

So how do people access that?

[Ruby Wax]

You go on frazzlecafe.org and you go straight in. It's free and you're anonymous and there's breakout groups and people have formed communities outside of it and so there's.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Ruby Wax]

I don't know how to do that.

[James Reed]

But they can meet themselves somewhere.

[Ruby Wax]

They can meet themselves and they have travel.

[James Reed]

You should have frazzled chapters that you can meet.

[Ruby Wax]

There are. But I'm not in charge. I let them.

[James Reed]

It's good. So it's become a. It has a life of its own.

[Ruby Wax]

But we have regulars that come on and your heart just warms to them because I've. It's like you've seen them through everything.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Ruby Wax]

You see them when they're. The sun is out, you know, and they're hopeful and then you see them when they're dipping and, you know, so.

[James Reed]

You'Ve got to know people.

[Ruby Wax]

Really, really know people and in their little corners and everybody cares. And then coming out and finding a new life.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Ruby Wax]

Somebody said, do you have. We had somebody who was multi personality and said they were really worried. This isn't usually. It's heavier. They were worried because only one of their Personas smoked and they scared everybody else would start. But another time somebody said, I work for MI5 and I shouldn't really tell anybody. And I said, you just told everybody. Stay anonymous if you have to do. Yeah, but some people have, you know, they have cancer, they're worried, they work for the National Health, they're burned out, they feel guilty that they should be complaining, but then once they speak it and everybody nods their head, you could see the relief. It's like air being let out of a tire. So I hope it stays as long as it can.

[James Reed]

Well, I hope so too. It's brilliant and. But listening. You've talked about creating community. Again with the Frazzle Cafe. You talked about it in businesses and you've talked about the importance of really listening to people or, you know, how people don't feel they listened to enough. And those are. Those are two things I think organizations can do a lot better potentially. You know, as a business leader, you know, if you're thinking about your teams, you know, how do you bring people together so they can really give expression? Well, meet them face to face. You have to go and see people.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. Or meet. Have a little meeting somewhere.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

You know, little group. Just go around at first they'll go, what's this about? And I work for Unilever. And they said, we're really scared if we find out about each other, that we'll hold it against each other. Humans are much more compassionate and they want to bond. And so once we did it, there was like. It was like a, you know, dynamite being set up.

[Unknown]

Right.

[James Reed]

So people were worried about sharing stuff, but then when they started it, they realized it's magnificent.

[Ruby Wax]

I mean, the President's Club do that?

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

The Young Presidents Club.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

You know, and. Yeah, they get together and they speak.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

That's for people listening. The Young Presidents organizations for entrepreneurs and business leaders who come together because they're often isolated, I suppose.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

You know, you don't want to tell your colleagues you don't know what you're doing, so you could tell someone else in the. In the safety of a meeting. That's confidential.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, well, you have to make it.

[James Reed]

Confidential, but yeah, confidentiality.

[Ruby Wax]

Once somebody says, I don't know what I'm doing, and the next person says, I don't either. Watch that space. They know exactly what they're doing. It's like, I'm always scared. I'm really stupid. Well, you got to be smart to be. Say you're stupid.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Ruby Wax]

It's self awareness. That's.

[James Reed]

You've got to be smart to say you're stupid.

[Ruby Wax]

I like that.

[James Reed]

Yeah. Well, we don't know everything for sure. We're all stupid in a sense.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. I mean, everybody's responsible for their corner, so somebody will find their corner. But if they're trying to be everything to everyone, like Rickman said, you burn out. Find out your voice.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

No. I was lucky enough to go to Harvard Business School years and years ago. And on the last day of the last course, our best professor said, 50 of what you've learned here will be wrong. And we don't know what 50 it is.

[Ruby Wax]

Oh, wow.

[James Reed]

And that was the best lesson because you left thinking, I don't know. I don't know anything. Potentially. I've got to stay curious.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

And, you know, you might think you're right, but you could be wrong. And I've found that very helpful over the years. I'm often wrong and. And it's finding that out.

[Ruby Wax]

But that's so flexible, you know, That's a flexible brain. When you're rigid like my dad was or like Trump was.

[James Reed]

Oh, yes, you're a psychopath.

[Ruby Wax]

You're a psychopath or sociopath at least.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

I think a neurotic thinks they're. They see God, but a psychopath believes that he's God.

[Unknown]

Right.

[James Reed]

Okay. So on the Subject of President Trump. You did a program about him very early on in his. In his career, long before his political career began. And tell me a bit about that, because didn't. Didn't he offer you a lift in his plane or something? What was. What was the story about?

[Ruby Wax]

Well, my makeup artist had to do his hair, and he had very little hair that was like one.

[James Reed]

No, like now, then.

[Ruby Wax]

No, now it's the full, you know, debt roadkill. But it was like one little hair, and she had to wind it like a Mr. Whippy on his head and then paint him orange. And then at first he liked me because I'm female, but then he. I asked the stupidest question. He said he wanted to be the next President of the United States, and I started laughing.

[James Reed]

He said this.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. I thought. I thought it's a good opener. Like, he's.

[James Reed]

How long ago was this interview? Twice now.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

When was it? Can you remember?

[Ruby Wax]

Maybe 15 years ago.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

But he knows how to create. Evoke terror, and that's another way of doing business. If you're so terrorized, you know, know how to terrorize, people will do what you want.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Ruby Wax]

But watch this space. They'll do what he wants. Because you assume this is leadership.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

You know, because we're still a little seeped in.

[James Reed]

How do you evoke terror?

[Ruby Wax]

He's. He's terrifying. I don't think it had to do with me, but I started asking personal questions. This is when it backfires.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Ruby Wax]

And they don't want to know. So if you've got a boss who's a terrorist, back off. Just do what you know, put your head down and get the money.

[Unknown]

Right.

[James Reed]

But get another job, I'd advise.

[Ruby Wax]

Or get another job.

[James Reed]

Go to reid.co.uk. you find something better.

[Ruby Wax]

There we go. I got you in there. When somebody treats you like an idiot, which he did, I became an idiot. So if you talk down to somebody, which he was. I started. I couldn't really finish my sentences. And eventually he created the idiot, and I helped him create the idiot that he thought I was. So he said, that's it. Had enough. And he left me in a plane and said, land it. We were 33, 000ft. So they landed the plane.

[James Reed]

Surprised when he was meant to be taking you somewhere?

[Ruby Wax]

No, just dropping us off.

[James Reed]

I just dropped you off somewhere in Arkansas.

[Ruby Wax]

The whole show is us trying to find Trump again. And it became hilarious.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Ruby Wax]

We're crossing those states. You know that.

[James Reed]

So he just dumped you?

[Ruby Wax]

Just dumped us in Arkansas.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Ruby Wax]

That's when the show took off. Because we went to Branson.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Ruby Wax]

You know, in places where you use Sodom Hussein as a gallery, there was a town that they created.

[James Reed]

Oh, so you were looking for him.

[Ruby Wax]

We were looking for him. But we went through, like, a town that was reminiscent of the 50s. They had the soda bar. They had two Siamese twins making toffee. Everybody was dressed as the 50s.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Ruby Wax]

Clearly no people of any other origin. And that's what middle and middle. Not middle. The Americans that voted for him are about. And I'd never seen that. So then we finally found him in Atlantic City, and he was judging a beauty contest, and there were all these people begging for him to sign their books. And to get in the millionaires club, you have to give a million.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Ruby Wax]

These people had. They weren't rich, Right. And they're asking him to sign the book. So he screwed him, and then he's still selling the book. So we're very confused.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Ruby Wax]

We're. And I met Melania. She was a lingerie model.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Ruby Wax]

She said she really liked him sexually.

[Unknown]

All right.

[Ruby Wax]

And I said, we should have this.

[James Reed]

In the podcast, but we'll see.

[Ruby Wax]

She loved him. Well, it's online how great he was. Yeah. And then I said. Made a joke. I said I was standing really close to her and I could hear the ocean.

[James Reed]

So.

[Unknown]

So.

[James Reed]

So then.

[Ruby Wax]

Then I met him again.

[James Reed]

Yeah. I was wondering what happened then.

[Ruby Wax]

Roger Stone. She's okay. Because I got in a limo with him, and the sound was not. And he told me what he likes to do with women and what he thinks of women. I. I'd say I could have hung him, but that would have made him even more popular. And he thought he kind of crude me out, but I cruded him out even more. Again, I'll play your own game. And so you could see them going, oh, she isn't some, you know, female trying to get in my pants. She's really a male. This is a game you can play to a lot of men that don't like women or they think they're just there to have sex with. I can turn myself into a male and then get them. So Roger Stone said, she's. She's much cooler than you think she is. And so the whole show ends with his arm around me. All right, So I kind of.

[James Reed]

So can we watch this show somewhere? Where is it?

[Ruby Wax]

On YouTube.

[James Reed]

On YouTube.

[Ruby Wax]

You remember something called YouTube?

[James Reed]

I do remember YouTube.

[Ruby Wax]

Are you.

[James Reed]

Yeah, Y. Sorry. I shouldn't have given myself away as such a dinosaur, Ruby, YouTube. That's where I'll go. So it's still there. I'll definitely watch it. And you haven't seen the new movie, the Apprentice?

[Ruby Wax]

I did.

[James Reed]

Oh, you have. So what did you think of that?

[Ruby Wax]

I think it's fantastic. I mean, it's probably not accurate, but it's fantastic.

[James Reed]

He had a mentor. That's what that film's about, isn't it? There's a mentor.

[Ruby Wax]

He had a mentor who was a killer. Yeah, yeah, he taught him to be a killer. But you know, like he says, you have to be born with it. It.

[Unknown]

Right, right.

[Ruby Wax]

Do you know what I mean by a female turning herself into a male And a male can turn himself into more female quality?

[James Reed]

Well, this is an interesting. Yeah, let's talk about that. So, yeah, so how do you do that? Well, how do you turn yourself into a male?

[Ruby Wax]

It's not really male, but I can cut out this, I can cut out the, the kind of who's conquering who, you know, or whom, and just. It's a sense of humor that does it too. When I worked on Girls on Top, men thought women were idiots. I mean, you know, was. I don't know how many years ago, but we were funnier about women than they could ever be. So it stopped them in their tracks. You know, if you can see the humor about how they see you, it stops them in their tracks. And a male who can turn on, you know, that kind of compassionate listening thing, even if he's not gay, immediately the woman will respond to that. Because we're both male and female.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Ruby Wax]

But when a woman used to go on stage and talk about diversity in her high 6 inch high heels and wine, I don't think it really worked.

[James Reed]

No, it doesn't.

[Ruby Wax]

No. But if she comes out in flats and she says, you know, whatever, something makes them laugh. Something a little self deprecating, not too much, but just something like, I've got how you see me.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, I've got.

[James Reed]

This is already helpful because I've often thought if, if someone's rude to me or someone I love or if, if I can turn it into a joke and make other people laugh, I win.

[Ruby Wax]

You win. Yeah.

[James Reed]

So that's, that's how I like to try and deflect rudeness if I can. Because it. You immediately win, don't you? If you make the other people laugh.

[Ruby Wax]

Or you say, I know how you see me without saying that word. Yeah, you know, to.

[James Reed]

So this is, this is sort of psychology that you're.

[Ruby Wax]

Oh, yeah.

[James Reed]

Training Us in.

[Ruby Wax]

When I used to.

[James Reed]

Quite useful. It's quite.

[Ruby Wax]

When I used to interview people, I wanted to know their psychology. I wasn't interested in their celebrity. It was like a Rubik's cube that I was putting together. You know, I knew Bette Midler just wanted me to. She doesn't want to be admired. She doesn't want me to go, I loved your last film. She wanted me to say, hey, I was a waitress too, and I was probably better than you. She got a little competitive and said, I used to. Can I used to, you know, get pineapples? And I bang them, Bang and bang and get them in. And I said, yeah, will I stuff chickens? You know? So it became. I got her on her level, right? Go to what they really are about and then play with them.

[Unknown]

Right?

[James Reed]

Yeah, but how do you find out what they're really about?

[Ruby Wax]

Reynolds really hate. Well, I researched it.

[James Reed]

So you need to do your research.

[Ruby Wax]

You got. You need to do. You need to.

[James Reed]

Burt Reynolds. You were about to say, what was.

[Ruby Wax]

He hated me for the. For the first while. And then I realized he was an egomaniac and I was interrupting him too much. So I just let him. I let it rip and I laughed at everything he did. And he became funny.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Ruby Wax]

You know, learn. Do you shut up or do you let him run, or do you flirt with them, or do you stand back and kind of analyze with them what do they want?

[Unknown]

Right.

[Ruby Wax]

But be authentic to yourself. I mean, you know, you can't fake it completely, but you've got to learn that. I hate the guy. He's up my. He's screwing up my show. This is a waste of time. Eight hours went by. I was showing off. I put on cowboy uniforms because he had his own shop at Burt Reynolds land. And then I thought, he's not. He's not responding to me. I'm like a little irritating thing. So I shut up.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Let him sort of.

[Ruby Wax]

Let him shine. Yeah.

[James Reed]

So. So giving people a space to sort of. I mean, that.

[Ruby Wax]

That or they want to be cajoled or they want you to be, you know, what do they want? And don't give up, you know.

[James Reed]

So the question is, what do they want?

[Ruby Wax]

In a sense, what do they want?

[James Reed]

That's what you're asking yourself. Yeah, I like that. That's very interesting.

[Ruby Wax]

So.

[James Reed]

But you could. That. That. That.

[Ruby Wax]

You can only read that when you've got space in your mind. You know, if you're too clogged up with, I hope I get this job. I hope this Person likes me, the red mist will stop you from thinking creatively.

[James Reed]

But. But in it. But you just said, if I get this job in a job interview, it's all about what they want. You know, as a job is a problem to be solved. I've always said.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

So when you're going for a job interview, you've got to try and understand what does this person sit the other side of the table want? I mean, what are they trying to fix or solve? And how can I help them do that? And so many people, I think, go into job interviews thinking, what's in it for me? Or how can I earn more money? Or. And that by switching it to what do they want? And really understanding that, they give themselves a much better chance of getting the job, in my view. So that's exactly the same.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

As what you're talking about in terms of the interviews you were doing.

[Ruby Wax]

But you can only play if you lower your cortisol. Fear keeps you. And this is where.

[James Reed]

So how do you get rid of fear?

[Ruby Wax]

Well, I told you, you know, it's something like mindfulness. You know, some people, it's got to be something you practice. You can't.

[James Reed]

Preparation, though, as well.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. You can't just, you know, jump out of the plane and expect the rip cord to work the first time. So do mindfulness or. Or like you said.

[James Reed]

Yeah, preparation.

[Ruby Wax]

No, training.

[James Reed]

Training.

[Ruby Wax]

You know, you said mental training.

[James Reed]

Mental fitness. Mental fitness. I think it's really.

[Ruby Wax]

I mean, read about it. If you. I have the money to see a good shrink. Go see a shrink. Go do cbt where you learn what your thought. It's exactly like mindfulness. You learn. These are your default. This is. Comes up. No matter what you're in, if you're with your friend, you still think, oh my God, why didn't she call me? Does she like me? Then it happens at a job interview, you realize those are just habits. They're not real. They're just habits.

[James Reed]

So I was thinking about, you know, the beginning of our conversation. I said, you've been in all these different businesses, but the psychology is what connects them all, isn't it? That's.

[Ruby Wax]

That's my real interest.

[James Reed]

That's what it says. Your real interest. That's what you're really about.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Whether it's making people laugh or helping with mindfulness or training people in business. So you're really interested in people.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. And I think that can be trained.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ruby Wax]

You know, come out from behind the suits. Nobody likes a suit anymore, but that's.

[James Reed]

The Key to your success as well, isn't it, Your interest in other people.

[Ruby Wax]

I wouldn't do it if I wasn't. You know, that's my gift. In the second half of the show or when I run frazzled, I do the show, I do the. You know, I'm tap dancing and showing them what I'm about. And in the second half, after the interval, they let me know what they're about. And the vibe in that room is fantastic. Again, it's maybe what church was about.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[James Reed]

So you've said that more than once. A lot of these people are looking for something that's been lost, perhaps in their communities, because some of these.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, we're lonely. That's our biggest illness now.

[James Reed]

We're lonely.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. And that's. People just want to connect in business and they spend more time doing business than they do with their family, so they might as well love their work.

[James Reed]

Well, I think it's really important to love your work and if you don't find another job. That's why we talk about Love Mondays. But this. And I think it's made more difficult by working from home, perhaps. I think that's made people more disconnected. I mean, I know we're trying to encourage people to sort of reconnect, but lots of people like working from home.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, that I don't understand.

[James Reed]

Yeah, you don't understand.

[Ruby Wax]

No, because where's your community? You know, On Zoom. Yeah. I'd want to get out there.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

I think sort of it's at our peril that we devalue the community and we should be seeking community and seeking to create community where we can. That's a big part of your message.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah. And, you know, the manager should try and create it, even if they meet for, you know, a minute before work or a minute after just to say what's been going on.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Ruby Wax]

And it'll become more and more honest.

[James Reed]

Yes, that's a good.

[Ruby Wax]

Because it has to be as important as just making the cash.

[James Reed]

That's a good show. I've got two questions that I always ask at the end, which I'll ask you now. The first is, what gets you up on a Monday morning? It might.

[Ruby Wax]

I don't know any different. You know, every day is a different day for me, so I don't. I don't go to an office, so I wouldn't know.

[James Reed]

You wouldn't know there's a Monday morning?

[Ruby Wax]

No, I don't know when. I don't know what day it is today.

[James Reed]

Fantastic.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

So you just get up and get going.

[Ruby Wax]

I love that. Well, tell me where I'm going. It could be like Yugoslavia.

[James Reed]

Does it matter what day or am.

[Ruby Wax]

I doing a show? I don't care. Just tell me where I'm going.

[James Reed]

Well, I think it's fair to say to those listening that you got here before me so suddenly got up and got going.

[Ruby Wax]

Tell me where to go.

[James Reed]

Yeah, yeah. So tell me where to go. That's what gets you going on Monday morning. And the, the second question is in my.

[Ruby Wax]

Well, it's novelty. And I'm lucky enough that I can improvise my life.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Ruby Wax]

I don't have a set routine, so that's difficult and that's an advantage.

[James Reed]

Yes.

[Ruby Wax]

You know, because everything's a surprise.

[James Reed]

You can improvise your life.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Reed]

Novelty. I like that.

[Ruby Wax]

Novelty.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Reed]

That is a privilege in a way.

[Ruby Wax]

In a way.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Some people don't want that at all.

[Ruby Wax]

No, they want routine.

[James Reed]

They want routine. I'm with you. I, I like novelty.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

But it's sometimes it can be quite challenging and difficult.

[Ruby Wax]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm between things now. You know, I've just done my show. I'm doing it in Australia, New Zealand, that I'm teaching mindfulness that in February and at Broughton hall and then, and then I don't know.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Ruby Wax]

And so the fear levels are way up. But when I figure it out, it'll be worth the reward rather than just repeat the old stuff.

[James Reed]

Exactly, exactly. Well, that leads nicely into my last question, which is where do you see yourself in 5 years time? Which might be difficult to answer given what you just said, but more not.

[Unknown]

Maybe.

[Ruby Wax]

I don't want to repeat what I've done, but I think I want to write a book about how to find wisdom because that's never discussed or sold at Harvey Nichols.

[James Reed]

Excellent. How to find Wisdom. Well, I hope one day to read that.

[Ruby Wax]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Thank you very much for that.

[Ruby Wax]

I helped you find it. Thank you.

[James Reed]

Thank you.

[Ruby Wax]

Thanks.

[Unknown]

Very good.

[James Reed]

I love to read that. How to find Wisdom. Thank you to Ruby for joining me on All About Business. If you'd like to find out more about employee well being or Ruby, visit rubywax.net I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. See you next time.