15. Becoming a strong leader whilst sticking to your values with Steph Rix

Summary

Podcast Summary: James Reed: All About Business
Episode 15: Becoming a Strong Leader Whilst Sticking to Your Values with Steph Rix
Release Date: February 17, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 15 of "James Reed: All About Business," host James Reed engages in a deep and insightful conversation with Steph Ricks, the founder and managing director of Life's Work, a company specializing in team, career, and leadership coaching. With a master's degree in career development and nearly a decade of experience as an executive coach, Steph brings a wealth of knowledge on transforming employees into strong, value-driven leaders within organizations.

Notable Quote:
James Reed [00:00]: "Delivering the best results means attracting and developing the best talent."

Leading Oneself

Steph Ricks emphasizes the foundational aspect of leadership: leading oneself before leading others. She believes self-awareness, resilience, and understanding one's strengths and values are crucial for effective leadership. This self-leadership forms the bedrock upon which individuals can inspire and guide their teams.

Notable Quote:
Steph Ricks [01:37]: "It's not just about leading people, it's also about leading yourself."

The Nature of Leadership and Values

The conversation delves into the essence of leadership, distinguishing it from mere management. Steph explains that while managers focus on tasks, leaders prioritize people. She stresses the importance of aligning leadership styles with personal strengths and values, advocating for an open-minded and nurturing approach.

Notable Quote:
Steph Ricks [06:40]: "Values are statements, principles, guiding compasses or methods. They help you make decisions based on what's authentic to you."

Steph outlines her core values—Connection, Creativity, Courage, and Contribution—and discusses how these values influence her business decisions and organizational culture.

Notable Quote:
Steph Ricks [08:41]: "Most people tend to have around four or five core values."

Debunking the "Born Leader" Myth

James and Steph address the common belief that leaders are inherently born with certain traits. Steph firmly disagrees, asserting that leadership is a skill that can be developed through continuous learning and intentional practice.

Notable Quote:
Steph Ricks [02:58]: "No, I think there's certain traits that some people have... but you can learn it, you can work at it."

Handling Self-Doubt and Imposter Syndrome

Self-doubt is a universal experience, even among high-achieving leaders. Steph introduces the concept of embracing the "imposter voice" by personifying it (e.g., naming it Steve) and balancing negative self-talk with supportive internal dialogue from a "mentor voice" (e.g., Mo). This playful yet strategic approach helps individuals manage their inner critics without letting doubt hinder their progress.

Notable Quote:
Steph Ricks [10:36]: "Embrace self-doubt rather than trying to shut down the voice because you can't turn that voice off."

Overcoming Overthinking and Paralysis by Analysis

Overthinking can paralyze decision-making and progress. Steph defines overthinking as the inability to take action due to incessant weighing of possibilities and risks. She recommends small, actionable steps and structured exercises to help individuals break free from analysis paralysis.

Notable Quote:
Steph Ricks [16:05]: "Overthinking is where you have an inability to take action because you're constantly weighing up all the different possibilities."

Navigating Organizational Change

Change is inevitable and often unwelcome in businesses. Steph explains that human brains are wired to resist change due to evolutionary instincts for safety and belonging. She advocates for leaders to focus on the human side of change by listening, being transparent, and fostering a collaborative environment to help teams navigate transitions effectively.

Notable Quote:
Steph Ricks [18:00]: "Our brains are wired to not like change because we want to feel like we belong and feel secure."

Conducting Difficult Conversations

Addressing sensitive issues, such as performance feedback or interpersonal conflicts, requires honesty and sensitivity. Steph critiques the "shit sandwich" method, advocating instead for straightforward, respectful dialogues that focus on specific behaviors and their impacts. She highlights the importance of understanding the other person's perspective to facilitate meaningful resolution.

Notable Quote:
Steph Ricks [27:44]: "Personally, I don't like the 'shit sandwich' approach because you're just trying to hide the important part."

Maintaining People Development Amid Budget Cuts

In challenging economic times, organizations might be tempted to reduce investments in people development. Steph argues against this, citing research from Deloitte, McKinsey, and Gallup that links investment in people with higher profitability and success. She encourages creative, low-cost methods to continue fostering development, such as leveraging free resources and focusing on meaningful interactions like career development conversations separate from performance reviews.

Notable Quote:
Steph Ricks [33:12]: "It's about being very intentional in keeping the focus on people development regardless of how much money you have."

Identifying and Nurturing Potential in Employees

Steph advises managers to engage in open conversations to understand employees' career aspirations rather than making assumptions. She distinguishes between "rock stars" who excel in their roles without seeking leadership positions and "superstars" who aspire to grow into leaders. Recognizing these differences ensures that development efforts align with individual motivations and strengths.

Notable Quote:
Steph Ricks [38:46]: "Individuals who have a real desire to learn and improve... can then do anything."

Conclusion: Personal Insights from Steph Ricks

To wrap up the episode, James asks Steph two personal questions:

1. What gets you up on a Monday morning?
   Steph shares that gratitude and anticipation for the day's positive experiences drive her enthusiasm each week.

   Notable Quote:
   Steph Ricks [43:11]: "The first thing I do is think about what am I grateful for. And then I think what am I looking forward to today."

2. Where do you see yourself in five years?
   Steph envisions expanding her business, increasing her team size, and enhancing her global presence while continuing her current trajectory.

   Notable Quote:
   Steph Ricks [44:02]: "I'd like to be continuing doing what I'm doing now... running the business, probably a bigger team, hitting our growth targets."

Final Thoughts

James Reed concludes the episode by thanking Steph Ricks for her valuable insights on leadership development and the importance of staying true to one's values. He encourages listeners to explore Steph's work for further guidance on people development.

Notable Quote:
James Reed [44:31]: "Thank you to Steph for joining me on All About Business."

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Final Note:
For more information about Steph Ricks and her approach to driving results through people development, visit her Life's Work website. To hire top talent for your business, explore Reed Global's specialist recruitment services.

Transcript

[James Reed]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field, and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. Delivering the best results means attracting and developing the best talent. But how do you turn your employees into strong leaders who are proud to work for your business? And how can you navigate tough decisions without affecting employer reputation? Joining me today on All About Business is Steph Ricks. Steph is the founder and managing director of Life's Work well, where she provides team, career and leadership coaching for businesses and individuals. Steph has a master's in career development and has been an executive coach for almost 10 years now. That's why she's the perfect person to talk to us about spotting and developing powerful leaders across your organization. Steph, thanks so much for joining me today.

[Steph Ricks]

Pleasure to be here.

[James Reed]

Now you are an executive coach.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

And managing director of your own company, Life's Work, which you started almost a decade ago. Part of your work, as I understand, is turning workers into leaders.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah. Yeah.

[James Reed]

What does that involve? Typically?

[Steph Ricks]

I think, well, there's. I mean, you could look at a dictionary definition, couldn't you, of what, what makes a great leader? And I think it's not just about leading people, it's also about leading yourself. So I always, whenever we start any leadership development program, we start with, how do you actually lead yourself? And I mean, like, you know, how self aware are you? How, how resilient are you? How well do you know your strengths, your values? What do you, like, you talked about brand me. What do you stand for? So I think that that's, that's definitely the, the first part of it. And then it's about, in leadership, how are you then? Because we talk about the difference, leadership versus management, and we'll say, you know, managers lead, will lead tasks, leaders lead people. And so it'll be around, how are you motivating and inspiring your team? How are you coaching them? How do you handle difficult conversations? How strategic are you thinking? How long term are you thinking? And short term, but all with the, The. The main focus of it's about people rather than things.

[James Reed]

Some people think that leaders are sort of born, not made, but, you know, they emerge, you know, from the womb with this sort of charisma or sort of followership or something. Is there anything you any truth in that? Do you believe that?

[Steph Ricks]

No.

[James Reed]

You don't?

[Steph Ricks]

No, I, I think that's.

[James Reed]

Why is it so persistently in our culture that people think.

[Steph Ricks]

I think there are certain traits that some people have and maybe in the past, you know, there'd be traditional, you know, quite direct presence, command, like this kind of style that people then say they're a natural leader. So I never thought of myself as a leader because I didn't fit that mold. So I was, you know, in an organization. People always said to me, oh, Steph, you know, you lack a bit of confidence. You know, these kind of things. Really unhelpful to say that to someone when, when they lack confidence. It's probably the worst thing you can say. And if I, if I notice one of my team are lacking in conf. In something, I wouldn't say, oh, you need to have confidence. I'd find out what it is that gives them confidence. So I'd say, or if I notice where they are confident and say I really liked how you delivered that part of the presentation or I noticed you were really in flow when you. So I'd pick out things where they are showing their confidence and I'd also ask what helps you to feel more confident rather than kind of stating something like that. But, but I, So I never thought of myself as a leader. I said I'm a great follower. I'm not a leader. And now I am a leader. But you can learn it. You can, you can work at it. There are things, there are skills. I mean, there's countless resources, both paid for and free, that you can access. And for me, being a leader is about having an approach and an attitude of continuous learning. Like I'm constantly learning. I get things wrong all the time. I am constantly learning how, you know, whether it's through books, podcasts, just meeting people, speaking to people in my network who inspire me. I think it's an approach and an attitude.

[James Reed]

So there are different types of leadership. So yours is a sort of open minded style.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah, I mean, everyone has their own individual style. I wouldn't say any style is wrong or right. It's about leveraging your own strengths in that style. I'm quite, as you say, open minded. Lead people probably say I'm quite nurturing. Connection is one of my values. So I believe in connecting people together. And I also need to sometimes be direct and challenging. They're the bits that don't come as naturally to me and I've had to work at those. Now, other people, maybe you, James Might have that as more of your natural style.

[James Reed]

That's what you mean.

[Steph Ricks]

But then you might have had to, you know, there'll be other elements of leadership that you think, oh, I've had to work at those. It's different for everyone.

[James Reed]

Yeah, I would agree with that. So when you talk about leading oneself in a sense, then we all have to be leaders.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

So everyone is a leader because. Yeah, we all have to lead ourselves from dawn until dusk or whatever and through the day and as effectively as we can. So it's a skill that we all need to learn.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

And then assuming we can lead ourselves to a degree, then we can start potentially being a leader in other ways.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think whether, whether everyone has that capacity, everyone has the, whether people want to. So I think when they have that.

[James Reed]

Ambition or desires, and that's okay.

[Steph Ricks]

There some people in organizations that don't want to lead other people and then they're pushed into that as a direction when they don't actually want to, they're quite happy, you know, being maybe a function area expert, for example. There'll always be self leadership elements involved in that, but they may not want to develop other people. And that's okay.

[James Reed]

Yeah, sure. Okay. On the, on the sort of nature of leadership you talk about, values, leadership, can you tell me what that's about? What do you mean?

[Steph Ricks]

I'm a very values driven person. So when I'm talking about values, I mean, I don't mean words on a website as such. I'm talking about statements, principles, guiding compass or methods, probably the best way of describing values. And for me, I find that if you can make decisions based around your values, it makes life a lot easier and it's just really authentic. Because you think purpose is why we do something, isn't it? And then you might have, as an entrepreneur, business owner, you'll have goals, vision, ambition, for example. But the values tell you then how, because we could, we could take our careers or businesses in so many different directions. However, how do you know what is the right direction to go in? And that's where values can really help you make decisions. So just to give you an example of that, to bring it to life. When I set up the business, I could have been Stephanie Rick's coaching, for example. But I always had this vision that I wanted it to be more of a team. I wanted to have other people working with me. I wanted it to grow into something. Which is why I then thought, I'm not just going to go down the freelance type route. I'M going to go for the more business type route because connection as a core value is really important to me. So I made that decision based on values connecting people. We cover teams, team development, leadership development and career development. And it's about how those three things connect. Again that fits with our values. I mean we have with teams. Exactly. So the values obviously are going to influence the organization. Yes. Yeah.

[James Reed]

So it sounds to me that you were very intentional about identifying what your personal values are. Is it a long list or a short list or is it just connection? I mean how does that work?

[Steph Ricks]

I think most people tend to have around four or five. When I've done. We do and we've got our course, haven't we where you can identify your values and most people tend to have.

[James Reed]

Around you have a workshop on that subject. I remember life's work. Of course it's really good. Steph led it.

[Steph Ricks]

We've got. Most people have four or five core values. So I. Connection is really important to me. Creativity, courage and contribution making a difference. So I always think they will start with C. That's my marketing background, James.

[James Reed]

It helps remember it, I suppose.

[Steph Ricks]

Yes, the four Cs and with that and then. But I think it's really important that you're intentional about the behaviors that match the values because I know you have fair, open, honest, take accountability are all part of your.

[James Reed]

Well, the read values of our family values. We're fair, open and honest. That's one.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

It's a lot of more words than one. We take ownership and we work together.

[Steph Ricks]

Yes, that's and.

[James Reed]

And that's easy to remember. And they, they do really inform how we go about things.

[Steph Ricks]

I think it's good to almost measure how are your behaviors aligning with the values. So people that are working for you, for example, how much are they embodying those values in every single behavior? I mean we don't always get it right and we have bad.

[James Reed]

No, not only that, not only them, but me as well. Am I being fair or.

[Steph Ricks]

Exactly. It's almost like a. I use them as a bit of a checklist sometimes for myself. I have them on a. Post it on my laptop and if I'm making a decision on, you know, do we want to work with this client? Does it fit with our advisor? We want to take on this piece of work. How am I going to develop the team? What am I going to do? I do think of it in terms of. Maybe that makes me a bit strange, I don't know. But I do think of it in Terms of does this match my values? What are the behaviors that I'm showing that match my values? Am I living those behaviors as a bit of a check? How can I live them more? How can I be more courageous in what I'm doing? That's one of our values.

[James Reed]

So how do you help your clients deal with that voice of self doubt which we all have?

[Steph Ricks]

Yes, everybody has it. That's the first thing to out know. So quite often clients feel reassured when I, when I. Obviously I don't share confidential things, but when I share, you know, when I'm working with other people and how people who they would never think of have self doubt, do have self doubt. Everybody has it. I think there's certain exercises you can do which we've got on, we've got on our course again.

[James Reed]

But I mean a degree of self doubt is not a bad thing, is it? Yeah, I mean it's quite good to be sort of thoughtful and learn.

[Steph Ricks]

I think it's about embracing self doubt, not trying to shut down the voice because you can't turn that voice off if you are somebody who has a strong inner critic or doubts themselves. And actually it can serve you quite well because it makes you constantly want to be better. And that's really what the inner critic or the self doubt was. It gives you that I want to be better, I want to learn something. So I tend to embrace it, but then balance it out and then say if I'm doing a thing, I'm saying, what if it all goes wrong? What if I never managed to grow the business? If I have all these negative what ifs going on? I'll then balance it out by saying the positive sort of inversion of that. What if it all does work out? What if I can grow the business to meet the target that I've set? What if we do some amazing work with a great team and just doing that little. I mean, there's countless exercises that you can do, but again, it's about being more intentional about working through that voice.

[James Reed]

So just inverting it.

[Steph Ricks]

Yes. Yeah. And I think it's about also reflecting back on your past achievements and things that you never thought you'd be able to do and how you've overcome them. So doing a little journey mapping exercise of what you have achieved can be, can be really helpful for people with confidence as well.

[James Reed]

So things I hear about a lot are imposter syndrome.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

So in leaders. And the other one is overthinking.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Do you come across those a lot?

[Steph Ricks]

All the time, yeah.

[James Reed]

A Bit of advice on each.

[Steph Ricks]

Well, I don't like the term imposter syndrome because it makes it sound like a medical illness or something, which it's not because it's. It's imposter phenomenon. Well, it's. You meant imposter phenomena, but that's actually quite difficult to say. So I say. To say imposter voice. So I often see these things on Facebook or LinkedIn saying, we will help you get rid of the imposter syndrome. You'll be rid of it forever. And I'm like, really? I don't believe that. And so I actually go a bit of the opposite approach and think actually, why don't we just embrace that voice and actually be a bit more playful with it. So when. And some people give the imposter voice a name. So this might be a bit overshadow. I was going to ask. This is a. Mine's called Steve. I don't know why I'm going to call mine Beryl.

[James Reed]

I've just decided.

[Steph Ricks]

So I have. So Steve is. My imposter voice.

[James Reed]

Sounds like a loser.

[Steph Ricks]

I know Steve's really horror. Steve's very critical and he will be. And then I have my. And then I then. So when I hear Steve going with, you know, how have you. How are you actually sat on this, you know, chair speaking to James Reed or whatever Steve might be saying. I will. Then Mo is then my kind of voice of inner mentor voice.

[James Reed]

So you've got quite a few.

[Steph Ricks]

Yes. So I want to hear Steve and the others.

[James Reed]

So Mo challenges Steve.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah. And Mo will say, you know, you deserve to be here. Look at what you've achieved. You are, you know, you're on a journey or whatever. Whatever a kind inner mentor voice would say to you.

[James Reed]

So that referee is that you.

[Steph Ricks]

And then. And then you balance those out. Any other voices and then I think this is inspired.

[James Reed]

I love the idea of having these personalities.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Listen to them and drop it and carry on.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah, yeah. So there's. So I. So that's one. And then just sort of. So it's about embracing it. Really being a bit playful with that imposter voice rather than just trying to shut it out. And I think it's okay to have self doubt bit of imposter symptoms syndrome, as we call it.

[James Reed]

It's almost becoming fun in the way you do.

[Steph Ricks]

Exactly. And then. But it's about not letting that prevent you from taking action. I'm a big action taker, so I have loads. I have self doubt all the time. But I think I Have a strong inner sense of belief in myself. But I have the outside lot of like self doubts going on at the same time. And I just try not to let that prevent me from taking action because actually by the process of taking action, it helps to get rid of the self. I think there's a, there's a quote, isn't there? Inaction is the biggest breeder of self doubt.

[James Reed]

Right.

[Steph Ricks]

And so that's. So when I'm working with clients, helping them, I'm helping them. So small step actions, just if you feel like you have control over something can help with that self doubt.

[James Reed]

So then that leads into this sort of overthinking which is probably related to inaction.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah, exactly.

[James Reed]

Sort of some sort of paralysis of.

[Steph Ricks]

Analysis as they call it.

[James Reed]

Talk me through that. And how we, how do you deal with that?

[Steph Ricks]

Well, so quite often, I mean this happens a lot with the people I'm working with, particularly on a one to one level. And the reason why they want to work with me is because I help them organize their thoughts and so people will overthink.

[James Reed]

What does it mean, overthinking?

[Steph Ricks]

Overthinking.

[James Reed]

We hear a lot of phrases.

[Steph Ricks]

Well, I think overthinking is where you have an inability to take action because you're constantly in your head weighing up all the different possibilities, the what ifs, the risks of doing something. Certain people have a tendency to do that more than others. So you have some people who are not overthinkers, they just get on and do it. Other people, that can be bad too. Yeah, exactly. So there's pros and cons. There's pros. A little bit of thinking is probably useful.

[James Reed]

Yeah. So it's. When it's.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah, yeah, a little bit of thinking is probably useful. But there's, there's. But with overthinking, I would define it as overthinking that prevents you from taking some kind of action next step and getting stuck, getting real stuck and not being able to see the wood for the trees. And quite often my clients will describe me as a thinking partner. I've had that. People have used that phrase about me before. So we'll work together, we'll think something through together by me asking questions, getting them to reflect, see it from a different perspective. And then we'll think about, okay, well what options do you actually have with this challenge, this issue? And then we'll then work towards, okay, well what steps are you actually going to take? And I think when you've got some steps or actions to take based on that Problem. It can be the smallest thing. It doesn't need to be a huge action. It's just a small first step that can help you get out of that overthinking cycle.

[James Reed]

So the other big theme that you deal with, I understand, is change. And change is all around us. Change is accelerating and ever present and kind of often we don't like it very much, do we? It might be nice to go somewhere different for our holidays. But change in the workplace can be.

[Steph Ricks]

Quite sort of disorienting if you're not driving it yourself.

[James Reed]

Yeah. When you're just being sort of moved around. Yeah. Especially if you're not driving it yourself. So how do you help people with that?

[Steph Ricks]

You mean organizations or do you mean individuals?

[James Reed]

I mean, I suppose I was thinking individuals. So you're in. If you're coaching or supporting a team that's going through the.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Transformational change that's in the.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah, well, I. Yeah, I think one of the problems is, is that when companies are going through a lot of change, it might be like a restructure, it might be a new system being put, whatever it is, that sometimes they forget that how it actually affects people because the companies are just teams of people after all. And as individuals, as humans, our brains are not really wired for change. We have a tendency to not like change, some people love it. But as a whole, we don't really like change as humans. I mean it comes from like neuroscience from. There's a whole. I won't go into all the background but it does come from a sort of neuroscience perspective of if you were to step out of the cave, there's change when you know then you would be eaten by a saber tooth tiger. And our way our brains have developed is our brain's primary function is to keep us safe. And change poses a risk of sort of the social risk and being almost, you know, out of the tribe type type thing. And so our brains are wired to not like change. And we want to feel like we belong, we want to feel secure. And so whenever we're going through change, certain, like in an organization people will feel that to different extents depending on the individual.

[James Reed]

So this is an ancient fear you're talking about.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah, it's part of the way that we're wired. That's what it comes from. And what. So what we do is just try and focus leaders and teams on the more human side of this. And I've seen it done really well in organizations. So whatever is happening, whether it's a restructure, transformation, whatever Words, the company calls it. If you take time to just help people. You may have heard of the change curve as well, the Kubleros change curve, which is often. It was taken from the five stages of grief, so denial, anger, acceptance, exploration, commitment. And it's been. There's various different versions of it, but it comes from the Elisabeth Kubler Ross grief cycle and it's used in leadership development quite a lot. But the point, the helpful thing about that curve is the fact that it makes you think that people are at different stages within that curve. So you'll have some people who will embrace a change really quickly and you'll have other people that will take time to do it still in the anger stage and in the denial stage. So I think it's about. So companies where I see do this well, leaders that do this well listen really well to the team. They'll make space, make time. That costs nothing, doesn't it? Just listening to people, it sounds so obvious. I know what I'm saying, it sounds really obvious. But you'd be surprised at how many organizations I see that don't do this when there's a change happening. And it's. It's about making that time for people to air their views, being really clear and honest. I think transparency is absolutely critical when you're going through a change in an organization, even if you can't say all the detail but just being honest about that. So I can't share this with you now because we're still working on it. However, by this date we will share it and then you've got to make sure that on the date that you said you were going to share something, you keep to that date. Even if you can't then share everything else, you still have to do an update on. You can't let that date pass. So it's about that commitment, transparency and constant over. You can never communicate enough with these kind of things. So I think that's from. And we, I mean actually just this week with one of our teams gone in, working with leaders to help them, to help their teams work through the change curve, taking practical examples, working through potential ways they can develop their team, take their teams through the change curve. So it's happening a lot at the moment and it's similar for individuals. So quite often individuals will come to us because they want to make a change. And I mean I'm a great believer in anything is possible. I've come from a family who always inspired me from doing things for my mum, who became a gp, immigrant family, Greek Cypriot women. A woman in I guess the early 70s. Not many female doctors around that time with a foreign name. And she was like, I want to be a doctor. And that's what she did. She had to redo her A levels a few times to actually do it. And then my dad changed careers numerous times, from a tube driver to washing dishes in a tea shop, to then becoming a sports agent and bringing football players to this country and then becoming a lawyer. And my brother as well did. He became. He was doing a geophysics PhD dropped all of that to become an actor and a comedian. So I think I've always been inspired by people changing.

[James Reed]

I mean, there's been living examples of this.

[Steph Ricks]

And so I believe I've seen it and I see it with my clients as well. You know, I was one. I remember one person I was working with, she was an MBA student. She was a singer, jazz singer in hotels. She's now a senior consultant for big consultancy firm. So I see that all the time.

[James Reed]

Sing. Occasionally.

[Steph Ricks]

She does still sing. That's a useful skill. I mean, it was really. I just find it fascinating and rewarding seeing people go through that. And it's not an overnight thing. It's a stepping stone approach. I think with all change, whether it's in an organization or whether it's your own career, it's about taking it step by step. And actually that's where coaching can be really helpful, is helping you to see what those steps are and helping you all the way through that journey.

[James Reed]

So what about businesses when they mess up change, you know, what can we learn from that? Or how would you advise companies? You know, because we don't get it right all the time, do we? Things go wrong, people lose their jobs.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Reed]

It hits the fan, as they say.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

So how do you sort of embrace all of that?

[Steph Ricks]

Firstly, vulnerability. To actually acknowledge that is really key. Now, some people would find that all. But is that, you know, we need to show that we're strong and we need to show that we knew what we were doing. So I think actually if you can.

[James Reed]

You think that's wrong, to be strong?

[Steph Ricks]

I think you need to be strong. But you can be strong and vulnerable. It's not an either or.

[James Reed]

Okay, that's interesting. So how do you do that?

[Steph Ricks]

So you are honest about the mistakes that, that you've made. So you. And I've seen people do this really well. I say, look, you know, we got this wrong. Okay, we acknowledge we got this wrong. This is what we learned from it. I. I don't think carry on saying we got this wrong and then not say anything else. But it's important to say we got this wrong. This is what we've learned and share with. With people. This is what we've learned. We're now we. And then we're gonna. We need your views and actually making that more of a co creation of a path rather than the just the senior leadership team coming up with all the ideas. Actually you make that more of a dialogue and saying let's hear your views. How can we change this? And then co creating something together to come up with a way of then working through the, the whatever has hit the fan to get through it.

[James Reed]

And you've seen that. Good examples and I guess bad example.

[Steph Ricks]

I've seen bad examples. Yeah. I'm being careful. I can see the, the companies and the people. I'm not gonna name any. No, I've seen.

[James Reed]

How do they play out? How does it play out when it goes wrong?

[Steph Ricks]

Then when people leave.

[James Reed]

Yeah.

[Steph Ricks]

That you have like mass exodus of.

[James Reed]

And a lot of damage to your employer brand.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah, employer brand. People leave the company. Results, commercial results go down as well. So there's all, all of those, all of those things.

[James Reed]

So this difficult conversation. I love this. Yeah. How to have a difficult conversation. What, what sort of advice would you give someone who has to give someone some difficult feedback? How do you go about that or what way should we approach that?

[Steph Ricks]

So there's different types of difficult conversations.

[James Reed]

Talk me through those.

[Steph Ricks]

So if you're talking about giving difficult, difficult. If it's about constructive feedback.

[James Reed]

So you have a colleague who has body odor. Okay, so this is a real problem. How do you surface that subject in a way that I say is this. I mean it's not an unusual situation. I mean I've.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah, no, I actually I have had someone who's. Who's gone through this. So what was it?

[James Reed]

What was it?

[Steph Ricks]

So they. And it happens more often than not.

[James Reed]

Yeah, it happens a lot.

[Steph Ricks]

It happens. And I think, well, obviously in this particular case, like you're talking about sensitivity, obviously. So you would take someone to one side. I think you have to be honest. I don't think you can sugarcoat it. And a lot of people when they're giving difficult feedback, whether it's about body odor or performance, whatever it might be, will do. What we call. I don't know if I can say this on the podcast. So what you like the shit sandwich?

[James Reed]

What's that? Yeah, talk us through it. I know this our podcast.

[Steph Ricks]

You say what you like. It's free speech. So where you say something nice at the beginning.

[James Reed]

Oh, I see.

[Steph Ricks]

And then you kind of, then kind of do the shitty part in the middle and then you kind of try and make up for it by saying something nice at nice at the end. Personally, I don't like that approach because it's, you're then just trying to hide the bit in the middle. And I think it's just better to be really, to be upfront and honest and say, look, you know, we've, we've had some feedback on this. This is. And if it's, there's the classic. If it's performance related, there's the classic standard behavior impact. This is the standard we expect. The behavior you are showing is this, the impact of that behavior is X, Y, Z. It's quite a nice framework for doing that. You could probably even apply that to the body odor example. You know, you know, we have an expectation that, you know, everyone feels that, you know, we're, as an office, it's not going to disrupt other people, it's not going to put people off. You know, these are certain hygiene standards that we have in the office. We know, you know, we've had some feedback on that. You know, there's, we've got some odor coming from you. And the impact of that on people is. It's making people feel really queasy in the. I mean, I'm kind of joking a bit, a bit in using the example, but I think it's about. So obviously you're going to be sensitive. You're going to not do that in a public forum. Obviously you're going to take someone to one side.

[James Reed]

In my experience, a difficult conversation. I think it's good to get to the point.

[Steph Ricks]

Right, yeah. And there's, there's different types.

[James Reed]

Oh, how are you? And you know, do you have a nice weekend? And then X, Y, Z. Yeah, you.

[Steph Ricks]

Say, you'd say, you know, look, I've got something that I need to talk to you about. It's quite sensitive. Or you just. I think it's about being honest. And there's different, the other types of difficult conversations is where, you know, you're not getting on with a colleague or they've done something that's upset. I have a lot of people talk to me about those kind of things or they need to address a certain issue with their manager, their peers, I think.

[James Reed]

Especially if it's with a superior.

[Steph Ricks]

Yes, difficult. Yeah. So there's, there's a really good book actually, Crucial Conversations, it's called I can't remember the name of the authors because it's about three different authors. But there's, there's a framework in that and it always starts with understanding the other person's perspective first. So our tendency to go into a difficult conversation when it's something like that will be to offload and say, look, I'm really unhappy about this, you've done this, or whatever. If it's a super, if it's one of your, if it's your manager, senior stakeholder, you might not.

[James Reed]

That's what I mean by superior. Superior in any other way.

[Steph Ricks]

You're senior in rank, you might find it more difficult to put it in that way. But you still need to say something. And actually the best starting point is to, is to actually say, look, I've got something to talk to you about. But actually ask them what's going on for them first. So see it from their perspective first. So I once had someone who was really struggling actually with their CEO actually. And I'm being careful not to use names and companies as I'm playing through the example. And he went to the CEO and said, look, I'd like to talk to you about this, but approach it from a, how can we work better together? So it's not like this is about me or this is about you. It's about that connection between us. And the starting point is that, you know, I've noticed. So you might call, might notice that I noticed you seemed really angry in that meeting. So you notice a specific behavior. So you might start with that. And then you say, you know what I want for us, and you think about what you want for the relationship. What I want for us is to be able to work really well together and show a united front. And then you ask them to start, what's your view on this? And interestingly, in that conversation, when he went to the CEO, the CEO then got really upset and all of this stuff came out that was good stuff was going on for this CEO that he had no idea about, absolutely no idea. Stress, all sorts of personal things and some professional pressures as well. And that just massively cleared the air. He didn't then get to put forward all the points as to why he was then, but it just cleared the air. So just by pausing and approaching it in a collaborative type way, how can we work better together? And then giving the other person time to just listen, put yourself in their perspective, it just helped to clear the air. Things are a lot better in their relationship, relationship now. And interestingly now he, he doesn't find those kind of conversations difficult anymore. Now he's a lot better at sort of going and saying, look here, this is what I need. You know, when, you know, we need to improve this together. He finds it a lot easier now because that kind of broke the ice.

[James Reed]

So a lot of business leaders have sort of scarce resources. Times are quite tough. What would you say to them if they're thinking of scaling back this type of support?

[Steph Ricks]

You mean people development support? It's tricky. So obviously I would think it's a bad idea.

[James Reed]

What's gaining back people develop.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah, because it's short term thinking and it can have long term adverse effects. In fact, there's actually been quite a lot of reports. So Deloitte, McKinsey, Gallup have all done quite a lot of research on this, on where, where you invest in performance and people, you tend to get companies that are more profitable. So you kind of drive commercial success through the people. And so there's always a bigger risk. If you then think, well, budgets are scarce, we need to then cut a leadership development program, for example. But then obviously you can, you know, you might just not have the cash flow to be able to, you might want to do it, but you just, just don't have the resources. And so I think, I think you have to then be really creative about how you have to keep people development going in some shape or form. You may not have a huge budget to do a, you know, 100k big leadership development program, for example, but then it's about equipping your leaders to be able to have great career conversations, for example, with the team that, that costs nothing, like so time, you know, it's just about having some great questions that you can ask. How are you measuring that? How are you governing the fact that your leaders are speaking to their team members about their development so you can always do something is my view. I think it's very risky to cut all people development. You don't have to. I mean, when we're working with clients all the time, we'll have organizations get budgets cut all the time and say, actually Seth, we've now only got a budget of this. What can you do for that? We'll always come up with a creative way of trying to do the best we can with what resources you have available. And there's a lot of free resources around as well. I mean there's. So I think it's about being very intentional in keeping the focus on people development regardless of how much money you.

[James Reed]

Have to be able to do that so sustained interest.

[Steph Ricks]

Absolutely.

[James Reed]

The people in the organization.

[Steph Ricks]

It's about thinking about people, it's about really acknowledging them. It's about making them feel. Value people. People leave companies because they A, have a values clash, B, they feel like they're not being developed or, or they want a new chat, like want a new challenge. I mean, sometimes people do that for more money.

[James Reed]

We know that because we see that.

[Steph Ricks]

Might be a combination of facts.

[James Reed]

If you're an employer and you're. You're not really able to give people much more money because your business can't afford to.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Reed]

What can you do in it in place of it that would keep people engaged? I mean, that's very much your.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah. So it's. So what are they. So how are you then. How are they then feeling fulfilled in the role? So if, say your wages aren't the best, what is it then about your company that makes people want to stay there? Is it the people that they interact with? Is it. Is it that you have cake Fridays? I don't know. Is there some kind of engagement type things that keep people in the organization? Is it. Is it the people often leave companies as well because of their own direct line manager. So how great are your line managers at managing people with a real focus on development? People will stay in roles even though their wages are not as high as when they get elsewhere because they like the people and because they like their manager and they feel like they are valued. If people feel like they belong, you don't necessarily have to be getting the best wage. If you feel like you belong, if you feel like you're being fulfilled, and if you feel like there is some kind of development and it's leading somewhere, people will forgive the fact that the wages are not the highest. So it's a constant kind of juggle between all those different factors, but really focusing on the belonging, the engagement, feeling like you're being developed, like you're cared for. I mean, you use the term co members. Don't you feel like you're part of something of you want to feel like you're a member of this organization?

[James Reed]

People want to feel part of something.

[Steph Ricks]

Yes.

[James Reed]

The belonging points. Really.

[Steph Ricks]

Yes.

[James Reed]

And that goes very much with inclusion.

[Steph Ricks]

Which we've been talking about in this podcast as well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[James Reed]

So managers or leaders of business that are a bit sort of strapped for cash should really focus on these aspects to keep the team together, to keep.

[Steph Ricks]

The culture strong and learn the skills. You could go on YouTube, you could read books on these things, podcasts you could chatgpt what are great questions to ask my team about their development. And then you put in an hours me separate from a performance review. Because a lot of leaders will only do a career development discussion when it's linked with the performance review. I think it's a separate thing. I think it needs to be a separate conversation and actually be, be interested, be curious, listen to them and then help with the development. And it doesn't need to cost.

[James Reed]

And it's very helpful to ask people, you know, what are your hopes and aspirations?

[Steph Ricks]

People want to learn.

[James Reed]

What do you want to do next? How do you see your career progressing? Because it's possible then to help them achieve their objectives. You know what they are. Yeah, you can't. So I think that's very good advice. So, you know, as a, as a manager or leader in a business, when you spot someone that you feel has real potential and you want to sort of lift them up a bit and draw that out of them, how do you go about doing that in the most constructive way? What advice would you give people?

[Steph Ricks]

I think the first thing is not to make assumptions because I see this a lot where I've had leaders say they've got real potential, I'm going to give them this role or that role or that I'm going to give them. So firstly, you've got to actually have the conversation and say, and you say, look, I notice you've got great potential. Like what? And then ask them, what do you. How do you want to develop your career? What do you want? So it starts off as a conversation. So I think that's the first thing, not to make assumptions about people's desired career development. Just because you see it yourself, you want to test that assumption. And if they do then want to develop and those assumptions are grounded and correct, then it's about thinking about ways together that you can stretch the development. So is it, is it getting a mentor? Is it about a different project they could be working on that stretches them in their interest areas? Is it, is it a leadership position or a promotion? There's a whole host of different things that you could do, but it's got to be from their interest and desires and what they want versus what you as a leader think that it should be. That has to be a, a joint discussion because I have seen it where people push someone in a certain direction, it's just not where they want to go.

[James Reed]

Right.

[Steph Ricks]

Even though they can see potential. So it's. So there may be ways to build confidence in that area. And, and it's about experimentation as well. So it's about, well let's try this and see how that works. It may not work and actually might be a different direction or project that that is the better one for that individual. It's about not making assumptions, having the conversation about development and finding ways that are going to stretch them, keep them challenged in a whole host of different ways of doing that.

[James Reed]

I suppose you need to find out whether they're motivated to do more as well, whether they have that sort of drive and ambition.

[Steph Ricks]

Kim Scott, who CEO of, she was, I think Google Silicon Valley CEO, wrote a book called Radical Candor and in that book she talks about rock stars and superstars. I think so. And rock stars are your people that you know who are keep the business going, grounded in what, what they're doing. They don't necessarily want that fast paced career promotion, development and it's important to. And so that what they want is breadth of role to keep to keep them interested and where you've got your superstars who want to progress. They want to become the next leaders of the company. And so when she talks about dynamics about think about, don't assume everybody is a superstar and wants that fast growth, leadership development and responsibilities. Think about your rock stars, what's going to keep them motivated, fulfilled and stay with the company as well.

[James Reed]

Yeah. We find in recruitment that there are some recruiters who just want to carry on being fantastic recruiters and we have a pathway for that. And others who might want to go into management, we have a pathway for that. And they're both of equals standing. Yeah, I think it's important to give people the opportunity to go the way they want to go. Okay. And so is there anything, you know, as a manager we should be particularly tuned into if we're looking for potential? I mean what, I mean everyone is different, everyone's in different circumstances. But have you noticed anything we should be particularly tuned into? Because I think it's so important to spot potential.

[Steph Ricks]

The one common theme that I've seen when people are talking about potential in their teams is individuals who have a real desire to learn and improve. And where you've got that trait in someone, they can then do anything. And so I think that's the thing. If you've got someone who gets something on, learns from it or is constantly seeking to improve that that's the. So they may, they may not be the loudest voice, they may not be the most confident, but quite likely not.

[James Reed]

To be, in fact.

[Steph Ricks]

Yes. Yeah. But if they're constantly looking for improvement or and learning. You see them learning and growing in what they're doing. I think that's a good indicator of potential.

[James Reed]

That's very helpful. I'll remember that. Thank you very much, Steph. So the last two questions I'm going to ask you are questions asking everyone.

[Steph Ricks]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

So the first is, you know, what gets you up on a Monday morning? Steph?

[Steph Ricks]

What gets me up on a Monday morning? The cats. What gets Actually I've recently been doing some work where you know, we wake up in the morning. What's the first thought that you have in the morning? And I rather than it be I've got this to do, that to do and gratitude is probably what was so when I wake up in the morning I think about what am I really grateful for. And then the second thing I think is what am I really looking forward to today? So it might be a client, it might be a piece of work that I'm doing. It might be time to have a nice cup of tea this, this morning. So the first thing I do is think about what am I grateful for. And then I think what, what am I looking forward to today?

[James Reed]

Thank you. And the second question is where do you see yourself in 5 years time? It's a classic interview question from the book, but where do you see yourself in five years time?

[Steph Ricks]

I'd like to be continuing doing what I'm doing now. Running, running the business, probably a bigger team, hitting our growth targets that we've set for ourselves and continuously growing and we've got global presence now. So continuing to expand the team and grow that that would be my in 5 years time but it's not too dissimilar to where I am now, but bigger and more people.

[James Reed]

So growing the business is your.

[Steph Ricks]

Absolutely, yeah.

[James Reed]

Thank you very much. That's perfect. Thank you to Steph for joining me on All About Business. If you'd like to find out more about Steph and driving results through people development, visit her website. The link is in the show notes. I'm your host James Reed, chairman, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you want to hire the best talent for your business, Visit [e-mail] and speak to one of our specialist recruiters today. See you next time.