2. Hollywood’s Paul Weiland reveals the key to profit-growing advertising campaigns

Summary

Podcast Summary: James Reed: All About Business
Episode 2: Hollywood’s Paul Weiland Reveals the Key to Profit-Growing Advertising Campaigns
Release Date: November 11, 2024

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Introduction

In the second episode of James Reed: All About Business, host James Reed engages in a dynamic conversation with Paul Weyland, OBE—a distinguished writer, producer, and director renowned for his extensive work in advertising. With over 1,500 commercials to his name and notable contributions to television shows like Blackadder, Paul brings a wealth of knowledge to the discussion on creating impactful advertising campaigns that drive profit and brand loyalty.

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Paul Weyland’s Journey into Advertising

Paul Weyland shares his unconventional entry into the advertising industry, highlighting the challenges and opportunities he encountered along the way.

Early Start and Determination

At the outset, Paul recounts leaving school at 16 and securing a role as a messenger at an ad agency on Fleet Street. Despite academic struggles exacerbated by childhood asthma, his passion for advertising never waned.

Paul Weyland [02:57]: “Don't listen. Basically, the weird thing about it is that we all develop at different stages.”

Rising Through the Ranks

Paul's proactive approach led him to take on more responsibilities, eventually rewriting advertisements and collaborating closely with the creative department. His boldness paid off, allowing him to transition from the streets to an office environment where he could further hone his craft.

Paul Weyland [06:07]: “It was brave and really pushing your ideas forward.”

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Creating Award-Winning Advertisements

Paul delves into the essence of crafting commercials that resonate with audiences and win accolades.

Understanding the Client’s Voice

A cornerstone of Paul's approach is capturing the client's voice to build authentic connections with the audience. He emphasizes the importance of aligning the creative vision with the client's objectives to ensure the advertisement not only entertains but also effectively sells the product.

Paul Weyland [12:17]: “You found a client's voice and it's like, 'I want you to like me because if I'm going to sell something to you, I have to build a relationship with you.'” [12:17]

Simplicity and Impact

Paul advocates for simplicity in advertising, believing that clear and straightforward messages often have the most significant impact. He cites his early success with a two-minute commercial for Mafia Strada, which won numerous awards due to its uncomplicated yet powerful narrative.

Paul Weyland [09:49]: “It was two minute commercial and then went on to win every single award.” [09:49]

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The Walker's Crisps Campaign

One of the highlights of the episode is Paul's detailed account of the long-running and highly successful Walker's Crisps campaign featuring Gary Lineker.

Campaign Genesis and Evolution

The original concept centered around Gary Lineker, a beloved footballer known for his impeccable record. The campaign portrayed Gary as a local hero, creating a relatable and heartwarming narrative that resonated with viewers.

Paul Weyland [19:23]: “Gary comes back and he's a local hero and everyone's patting him on the back...” [19:23]

Creative Challenges and Client Approval

Paul discusses the creative differences faced during the campaign's development, including disputes over the advertisement's ending. Despite initial resistance, the chosen narrative—where Gary playfully steals crisps from a child—became iconic and cemented the campaign's success.

Paul Weyland [21:39]: “The client didn't like the idea that we screwed up the packet.” [21:39]

Longevity and Client Relationships

The campaign thrived for over 22 years, a testament to its strong foundation and the robust relationship between Paul and the client. Paul underscores the importance of maintaining continuity and trust to sustain long-term advertising success.

Paul Weyland [32:05]: “Continuity between an ad agency and a client. A trust needs to be built up.” [32:05]

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Challenges with Clients and Supermarkets

Paul provides insights into the complex dynamics between advertisers and retailers, particularly supermarkets, which can significantly impact a campaign's effectiveness.

Supermarket Negotiations

He explains how supermarkets wield substantial power in product placement, often dictating terms that can undermine the investment made in advertising campaigns. This power struggle can lead to reduced product prices, negating the benefits of successful advertisements.

Paul Weyland [25:30]: “If you weren't on that center gondola... they say you have to sell us your product at a very reduced price.” [25:30]

Balancing Creativity and Practicality

Paul emphasizes the need for advertisers to negotiate effectively with retailers to preserve the integrity and financial viability of their campaigns. This balance is crucial for sustaining brand presence and profitability.

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Building Strong Client-Agency Relationships

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on nurturing productive relationships between clients and advertising agencies to foster enduring success.

Trust and Continuity

Paul stresses that long-term relationships built on trust allow for more creative freedom and consistency in campaigns. He highlights the importance of clients trusting their agencies to deliver impactful and coherent messages without being overly prescriptive.

Paul Weyland [26:43]: “Don't listen. Basically, the weird thing about it is that we all develop at different stages.” [26:43]

Ownership and Accountability

Maintaining ownership of a campaign's vision ensures that both the agency and the client remain aligned in their goals. Paul cautions against frequent changes in campaign direction, which can dilute the original message and reduce its effectiveness.

Paul Weyland [44:14]: “Continuity is everything... you're rudderless in a way.” [44:14]

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Transitioning to Feature Films

Paul recounts his ambitious move from advertising to feature filmmaking, detailing the challenges and lessons learned during this transition.

Creative Expansion and Setbacks

Venturing into feature films exposed Paul to new creative demands, where the extended format required more substantial storytelling and depth. Despite initial setbacks and the realization that his advertising prowess didn't directly translate to film success, Paul persevered.

Paul Weyland [40:56]: “My naivety finally caught up with me... A 90-minute film is very different from a 30-second commercial.” [40:56]

Rebuilding and Success

Through collaboration with talented individuals like Duncan Kenworthy and involvement in projects like Living With Dinosaurs, Paul successfully realigned his creative vision, earning accolades and restoring his reputation in the advertising world.

Paul Weyland [42:48]: “I persevered, came back and just thought, yeah, I can get this back.” [42:48]

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Advice for the Next Generation in Advertising

Paul offers invaluable advice to aspiring advertisers and the new generation entering the creative industry.

Embrace Confidence and Creativity

Paul encourages young professionals to harness their confidence and not be deterred by inexperience. He believes that having a strong, creative idea is paramount, even in the face of uncertainty.

Paul Weyland [43:38]: “It's about confidence... as long as you have an idea.” [43:38]

Build and Maintain Relationships

He underscores the importance of building lasting relationships with clients and maintaining continuity in campaigns. Trust and mutual respect between agencies and clients are essential for sustained success.

Paul Weyland [44:14]: “Continuity is everything. Continuity between an ad agency and a client.” [44:14]

Maintain High Standards

Paul advocates for upholding high standards and not compromising on quality, even when faced with lucrative opportunities that may not align with one’s creative vision.

Paul Weyland [45:26]: “I would turn down more staff than I did, you know, this is really.” [45:26]

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Paul’s Personal Reflections and Future Outlook

In the concluding segments, Paul reflects on his motivations and future aspirations.

What Drives Him

Paul finds inspiration in nature and the unpredictability of life, drawing parallels between creating advertisements and experiencing the ever-changing environment.

Paul Weyland [46:37]: “I love nature, I love how it changes and I love that it's not predictable.” [46:37]

Looking Ahead

He envisions a future where he continues to contribute positively to the world, fostering continuity and pride within communities. Paul's focus remains on creating meaningful and impactful work while maintaining a hopeful and confident outlook.

Paul Weyland [48:12]: “You want the world to be a better place to live... you want continuity.” [48:12]

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Conclusion

Episode 2 of James Reed: All About Business offers a deep dive into the art and science of creating successful advertising campaigns. Through Paul Weyland’s experiences, listeners gain valuable insights into the importance of creativity, client relationships, and maintaining high standards. Paul's journey from a humble messenger to an award-winning director serves as an inspiring blueprint for aspiring business leaders and marketers.

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Notable Quotes:

• Paul Weyland [02:57]: “Don't listen. Basically, the weird thing about it is that we all develop at different stages.”

• Paul Weyland [06:07]: “It was brave and really pushing your ideas forward.”

• Paul Weyland [12:17]: “You found a client's voice and it's like, 'I want you to like me because if I'm going to sell something to you, I have to build a relationship with you.'”

• Paul Weyland [19:23]: “Gary comes back and he's a local hero and everyone's patting him on the back...”

• Paul Weyland [21:39]: “The client didn't like the idea that we screwed up the packet.”

• Paul Weyland [25:30]: “If you weren't on that center gondola... they say you have to sell us your product at a very reduced price.”

• Paul Weyland [32:05]: “Continuity between an ad agency and a client. A trust needs to be built up.”

• Paul Weyland [40:56]: “My naivety finally caught up with me... A 90-minute film is very different from a 30-second commercial.”

• Paul Weyland [43:38]: “It's about confidence... as long as you have an idea.”

• Paul Weyland [44:14]: “Continuity is everything. Continuity between an ad agency and a client.”

• Paul Weyland [45:26]: “I would turn down more staff than I did, you know, this is really.”

• Paul Weyland [46:37]: “I love nature, I love how it changes and I love that it's not predictable.”

• Paul Weyland [48:12]: “You want the world to be a better place to live... you want continuity.”

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode, providing a clear and engaging overview for those who have not listened to the podcast.

Transcript

[James Reed]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. In the age of ad blockers and skip now buttons, is it still possible to create memorable ads that make millions of people want to buy from you? And how can you build a successful brand that keeps your customers coming back for more? Joining me today on All About Business is Paul Weyland, obe. Paul is a writer, producer and director whose credits include back Adder and Mr. Beam. He's also directed thousands of well loved TV ads and in 2015 received an OBE for his services to advertising and the creative industries. That's why he's the perfect person to talk to us about creating award winning ads that connect with your audience time and time again. Paul, full disclaimer here. Paul and I go back away. He's an old friend of mine, a good friend of mine, and he worked on Reid as a client for many years in his capacity as a director, creative producer of our ads. And Paul, it was you that conceived the Love Mondays idea two decades or more ago. And we have stuck with that, as, you know, religiously.

[Paul Weyland]

We've stuck with it or you've stuck with it?

[James Reed]

We have stuck with it. And that's an important point we want to come to in this discussion. So you have, you know, a hugely distinguished career in advertising. You've been a writer, director of over 1500 commercials. You've also been a film director. You've done television shows, many of them very popular like Blackadder, which I love. And you have a huge amount of knowledge in this subject of marketing and advertising, which is a big budget stuff for a lot of businesses and really important to the success of a lot of products and services. Could you tell me, Paul, just a little bit about how you got into this game? How did you begin? What's the story here?

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah, basically Left school at 16, so came in to advertise and weirdly, the first job I ever got was in an ad agency as a messenger fire running the streets just down the road. Fleet Street. I used to run with the artwork to all the printmakers on Fleet Street.

[James Reed]

But you were sort of early day email at that point.

[Paul Weyland]

Oh yeah, I was, yeah. And they always said, this is really urgent. You've got to get in a cab immediately and get this to the block makers, because they used to do it on metal in the old day, all the ads. Not really good at much at school. And that was because I had asthma as a kid. Johnny, you don't want to hear, like, if you probably pick up a bit of wheezing on the mic.

[James Reed]

Yeah, yeah, okay. It's inspiring, your story, because a lot of kids aren't very successful at school.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

So what? Talk us through that. What's your message to them?

[Paul Weyland]

Don't listen. Basically, the weird thing about it is that we all develop at different stages. And if you would see my school reports or any of those kids, it would be very reassuring. My first school report at 4 was Paul. He's seriously handicapped by Il Heath. The teacher had spelled health wrong. So it was almost like. And then from there, you're almost ma. You start to fall behind. And then it's like things like, he doesn't have a creative bone in his body. He just. He lacks imagination. And so basically you can get beaten down. But for whatever reason, there was this guy in life that I did think that I could appeal, I could do something. And my dad used to own. He's not around anymore, but he had a terrible hole in the wall in Watney Street Market, where I used be forced to go as a kid and work on the store outside. And I always remember that I loved the feeling because in those days, you know, all these soap powders used to give free gifts. And I started bartering with people, like calling people, come get your free gift. Do this. And then one day, I think I was. I realized the power of advertising when someone came into the shop and asked for a bar of bo, which was soap. And what they really meant was Lifebuoy. And what the advertising had got wrong was that they thought the bar was called bo, not Lifeboy. In that day, their campaign was. Someone would go up to someone and whisper in their ear, B O. Oh, I see.

[James Reed]

You smell.

[Paul Weyland]

You smell. And then Lifebuy would come on, use Lifebuoy and you won't have BO anymore. But the consumer had picked up the message that the bar of soap was called bo. So then I thought, well, I think advertising needs a bit of help here. And I think that was the early trigger for me thinking maybe I could do this better than the guys in advertising. And then, I don't know, I might be. It's not on a proper story. It's true. And whether it did trigger my introduction into that world. And then, yeah, so I started to run a really cheeky. I don't know where the confidence came from, but they had never seen anything like in a 16 year old before. And then within a week a job came up in production where things are printed block and you have to put everything on a proof and it's taken round to all the departments in the ad agency. And at that point advertising was full of trainees that come from big universities, Oxford, Cambridge and everyone either wanted to be in the creative department or do media, whatever. So this job came up in production, print and production and no one wanted it. So after a week I was off the streets and in my own office and that's how I started working in the agency, got to know the creative department, all the account people, whatever. And then I started to.

[James Reed]

Which agency was this?

[Paul Weyland]

And this was called Horny Blowcott Freeman. And yeah, basically I then started to rewrite the ad. So not only were I taking the ads into the creative department for them to approve, I started saying do you think this would be a better headline than you've written?

[James Reed]

That's brave.

[Paul Weyland]

It was brave and really.

[James Reed]

And I think pushing your ideas forward.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah, yeah, just. And then I was. Yeah, just very. Yeah. And I got away with it because I was young and we're delighted that.

[James Reed]

You'Re listening to this episode. Hit the follow button so that we can continue to bring you the best business insight to help your business and or career.

[Paul Weyland]

It was an interesting time. And then it's interesting point though.

[James Reed]

If you're young you can get away with stuff in a way because they will give you a chance and because.

[Paul Weyland]

You'Re not really a threat, you're kind of entertainment for them. What is interesting. So then what happened is the creator started to take me under their wing and then they said to this creative director. Yeah, he was like the creative director of the agency who was called Eugene Taylor. Big guy voices, big cigar from, you know. And basically I don't think he got my humor. And after a year they said we want to bring him in as a trainee copywriter and he didn't want to know. So I thought well, stop this. And I got. They put me in touch with a headhunter, a guy called Stephen Frewin. And yeah, I then got. He got me a job. So by this time I change your.

[James Reed]

Job, change your life.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah, cut and pasted my own ads and that got a bit of help from the grads department and I had a portfolio and then I got my first job and then where was that? It was called Royds London. They were a Manchester based agency and I went in there as a trainee copywriter and the first gig I got there was they were pitching for the RSPCA and I came up with this line at Campaign Against Cruelty today and there was a lot of cats with bricks around their necks and they won the business. From there I decided to win awards and started to make a creative reputation for myself. And then from there, at 25, literally left there and joined Alan Parker Film Company and became a commercials director.

[James Reed]

Right. And that's when you started standing behind the camera directing.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah, and then I started directing because I'd already had a reputation and won quite a lot of awards as a writer. So that was interesting. And this is what I'll get onto later is that my background was pure advertisement, although it was quick, it was pure advertising and I loved the moving image and I was good at being able to sell and make. Put that being upsell into that.

[James Reed]

Yeah. So what made you successful as a copywriter?

[Paul Weyland]

If someone said, you know, really again, it's really weird because if you've never been any good at anything and suddenly you're faced with a blank piece of paper and someone says, take for instance, you know, there's a car called Mafia Strada and we want to do the first two minute commercial and all you've got is a blank piece of paper and then you go through the process and whatever. And then I come up with a line hand built by Robo because it was the first car that was actually made.

[James Reed]

Right.

[Paul Weyland]

Because there was a lot of talk of Friday cars that if you got a Friday car. And I remember seeing something on Tomorrow's World, which was always that program where you saw the future and whatever. And they had a clip from the Fiat factory where the car's being made by robots. And originally the car was called RIP Mode. And here's someone who knows nothing about classical music or opera and I thought, Rip Mo sounds like Figaro. I know. What, why don't I put. So I took the piece of footage from the show Tomorrow's World and I put Figaro onto it as the. So it became a ballet opera of the car being. But.

[James Reed]

And was that a two minute commercial?

[Paul Weyland]

It was two minute commercial and then went on to win every single award. And Hugh Hudson directed it and yeah, it's. It became one of the most. You know.

[James Reed]

And this is quite a long time ago.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah, long, long time.

[James Reed]

So I was sort of ubiquitous.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

I went to Toyota the other day and they're everywhere. That's interesting. So then you went into directing commercials and you've done over 1500.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Your company that you built more than 3, 000. Yeah. What made. What makes a good commercial? You know, the 32nd on the TV.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

I mean, give me some examples of ones you've made that you feel like really. Well.

[Paul Weyland]

One of the very first ones I made as a director was for Hamlet. Cigars for Dinner.

[James Reed]

I remember that. The music.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah. Y G string. And it was. So I didn't come up with this line. This was a CDP campaign, but it was like happiness is a cigar called Hammer.

[James Reed]

Yeah.

[Paul Weyland]

And obviously there were hundreds and hundreds of commercials made on that theme. And each of them was when something goes wrong. And then. And I did a very early one which was called Bunker, where you don't see anyone, but all you are. Your camera moves in on. In a bunker and it's a golfer trying to get.

[James Reed]

Or I remember it. It's very good.

[Paul Weyland]

And again, so simple. And you go in and basically I had like 10 people in, all with different T. One throwing the ball up, one throwing the sand up, then one with a little lighting. Cigar. Yeah. And he can't get the ball out. And all you hear is. And there's divots flying in the air. And it was all done, you know, in 30 seconds with one shot, and it just worked. And again, quite lucky. And that commercial then went on to win lots of awards because of its simplicity.

[James Reed]

Yeah.

[Paul Weyland]

And again, it's almost like. Yeah. It was just kickstarted my career.

[James Reed]

Happiness is a cigar. We can't advertise cigars.

[Paul Weyland]

No. No. Which is a shame because you like a cigar.

[James Reed]

I do occasionally. I think that ad might have had a lasting effect on me.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

But after a bad day.

[Paul Weyland]

These were thin cigars, weren't they? You like the big.

[James Reed]

If I can find a fat one.

[Paul Weyland]

The owner of a big successful company. Cigar.

[James Reed]

You're giving away all my secrets. That's very interesting. But you say you. In my experience, because as I said, you work with us over many years, you have a very clear business view of what a commercial is for, which I found really helpful and inspiring because you had a clear understanding of what the end result should be for a client or a company using your services. Can you explain that a little bit?

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah, look, first of all, it's really interesting because I was a bit of a weird one because most directors are a bit kind of arty and they kind of like the fashionable shots and it all looks great, but it's almost like a lot of the time, it was like camera in search of an idea. And what I was always really keen on is that you found a client's voice and it's like. And for me, it was like. Like me. I want you to like me because if I'm going to sell something to you, I have to build a relationship with you. And you have to either understand my sense of humor or where I'm coming from or my serious intent and whatever. And I think that running my, you know. 25, Alan Parker decides he was very famous doing ads. That he doesn't want to do commercials anymore. Because at that point, commercials were seen as. Especially in timeout reviews. When he started doing movies, the commercial director Alan Parker, again, like it.

[James Reed]

Just tell us what movies he made, because some of the younger viewers might not know.

[Paul Weyland]

So basically, one of his first movies was Bugsy Malone. And then he made me, like, Spray Shoot the Moon, the Commitments. He was really hot, and I learned a heck of a lot from him. And he was the one that inspired me to want to be a director. And again, I was pushy with him. I used to write the ads and give him the ads to direct and watch him and then suggest things. Why don't you try this? And he would go, fuck on. Sit down, sit down. Shut up. Why don't. Just try it once? Right. Blah, blah, blah.

[James Reed]

So you weren't deterred by a bit of abuse, then?

[Paul Weyland]

No, love the abuse. Keep coming back for more. And then what happened? All right, I'll do one that you're suggesting. And it ended up. Always ended up in the car. And then I started to think, actually, maybe I could do this. Yeah. And that's. And then basically a year after being with him, he thought, I'm closing my company if you want to take it over. So at 26, I basically took over the island park film Coming. Change the name to Paul Allen Film Company.

[James Reed]

I didn't know that. So you took over the commercial arm.

[Paul Weyland]

Of his business and he didn't want it anymore. He lived to regret that because then.

[James Reed]

Very successful.

[Paul Weyland]

It was very successful and it made a lot of money. And he never literally. He never got over it, to be honest with you. He claimed his business.

[James Reed]

He gave it.

[Paul Weyland]

Well, it wasn't. I could. You can't trade on someone else's name because it's your name. I just took on the rent and the contact book and everything. Yeah. And the accountants and whatever. So. Yeah. And it became the full Wayland. Yeah. Paul Waitland Film Company. And it became quite, you know, obviously over the years I was doing it for 30 odd, 35 years, it became pretty successful.

[James Reed]

It was the foremost.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Advertising production company in London.

[Paul Weyland]

I'm glad you said that during the.

[James Reed]

Heyday of advertising, because I thought you.

[Paul Weyland]

Could have put that in your intro that I'm one of the most successful commercials directors of all time.

[James Reed]

I would say that, yeah. Yeah. Okay, Paul, you can see why this guy's good at advertising. So. So you. You had this company at 26, which is interesting because that's exactly the same age my dad was when he started Reid.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

So I think, yeah, that's a good age, isn't it? Because for a young entrepreneur.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

And don't have too many obligations or attachments.

[Paul Weyland]

And I think that what you have is a huge amount of naivety. And naivety, to me, is the key to success. Because there's not much you're frightened of. It's a bit like in the early days going into these highly paid copywriters and saying, have you thought about this? I wasn't frightened because you. Bit of an idiot to be.

[James Reed]

But this turned this into a strength. Yeah, I like that.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah, the naivety is the thing. So when I then started directing, it was almost like all these cameramen that I worked with, you know, I worked with the first assistant that did all David Lean's films and whatever, and I had, okay, let's try that. And they're going, all right. No one's ever really, you know, because you don't know really what you're doing.

[James Reed]

So David Lean been talking Lawrence Verray, Lawrence Vera, another great, great film director.

[Paul Weyland]

And then you're working with all these camera that worked with all these legends at the time, you know, making movies. But their bread and butter was also in the downtimes, making commercials. So you got to work with like the best crew and the best people and the best operators. But they would always say to me, you know, look, you know, you are very, very strong. You don't really know how it all fits together, but there was a weirdness that you just go, I want to try that. I'm going to try that. And. Yeah, but at the heart of it, my. From the very beginning, I was aware that clients are paying a lot of money for this and it has to deliver, because if it doesn't deliver and they. The sales don't increase. And it's not just the commercial, which we could go on to afterwards, but the. Then I would feel that I was taking their money under false pretenses. But I was very strong on the idea that, leave it to me, leave it to us, we know what you need and we'll do it the minute you start being prescriptive and saying, but we want this and we want that and blah, blah, blah. Of course I'm listening and I know what you want, but you have to leave it to us because we're in the entertainment business and the selling business and you have to do both, because if you're just doing the selling, you know, this is where we're at mostly today, it's just about flogging, flogging, flogging with no personality. Now they think there's personality, but in my view.

[James Reed]

So the advertising has lost something in that sense.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah. And today. Yeah. And it's easy for me to sit here because, you know, I came from a period where creativity was a thing where, you know, people did say, you know, talked about the ads, you know, you very rarely.

[James Reed]

Of course, we all watch the same ITV shows and then we all saw the same ads, I suppose, and we would talk about them and have you seen the Levi's ad or the Cadbury's ad or the Guinness ad and the Guardian ad or whatever?

[Paul Weyland]

And you kind of always look forward to the next. If it was a good campaign, you always look forward to the next ad in the campaign because you will become part of that campaign. You were a participant in that campaign and you might not like the next one as much as you like the previous one, but then maybe the next one along and.

[James Reed]

Well, one campaign you're famous for is the Walker's Crisps campaign with Gary Lineker, I think. How many of those did you make?

[Paul Weyland]

Oh, well, I think I probably made about 200.

[James Reed]

200 walkers? Yeah, yeah, I do. It was that many? Yeah. I thought you were going to say 30.

[Paul Weyland]

No, no, no, no.

[James Reed]

So that's.

[Paul Weyland]

It was over 22 years.

[James Reed]

It was over 22 years. So talk me through that. What was the original concept there and why did it run so long and why was it so successful, in your view?

[Paul Weyland]

Well, here's the thing that you can never second guess what is really going to work. You could get a feeling of what's good, but is it really going to have the magic dust? And that was basically that Gary Lineker had been away. Gary Lineker was this guy who'd never been booked, never got a card, had an impeccable.

[James Reed]

As a footballer.

[Paul Weyland]

Yes, footballer. And it's a gentleman. He'd never been booked, never been booked, never got a card. So he cut. He was basically in Japan, came Back from Leicester where Walkers is made. Was originally a local lad. Yeah, local lad and basically PepsiCo owned ball walkers a while back. And he came back and we, John Webster and these two guys, Malcolm, I can't green. And someone else came up, this guy. No more Mr. Nice Guy. And the idea was that Gary comes back and he's a local hero and everyone's patting him on the bar and it's beautiful, like documentary, really gorgeous looking ad. And we tell you. And he's doing it. Yeah, he's in Leicester walking. He comes back on the train and the, you know the everyone station. Yeah, like faded and like. And the, the music was welcome Home.

[James Reed]

Yeah.

[Paul Weyland]

Which was very sentimental and it looked great. And then he sits down on a bench and a kid looks up at him and he's got a packet of Walkers and he goes, it's Gary Henniker, right? Cause he was a hero, you know.

[James Reed]

Yeah, well, he got the Golden Boot in the World cup and everything. Yeah.

[Paul Weyland]

And then he, the kid like offers him a crisp and Gary takes a Chris and obviously he enjoys Chris so much that he then takes the packet of Chris from off the kid. And this was like not quite so heroic. He then basically.

[James Reed]

Was that your idea?

[Paul Weyland]

No, it wasn't my idea. This was the idea of the ad agency, basically. Then what happens? He then goes, runs off and the kid chases him trying to get his crisp back. Interestingly, the original ending, which was better for me, was that Gary then sat there on the bench eating the crisps and the kids like going, when's he going to give me my packet? He finishes the pack, screws it back, screws it into a ball and hands it back to the kid.

[James Reed]

So which ending do you go for?

[Paul Weyland]

Well, we had to go with the running off ending because the client didn't like the idea that we screwed up the packet.

[James Reed]

See, this is because of their products, because their product. Your idea is better though, isn't it? Well, because I'm, you know, if you're sitting with someone, eating, sharing a bag crisp, you always wonder, are they going to eat them?

[Paul Weyland]

All right, so this is the thing where trust starts to develop, right? Where basically I think, yeah, I probably put up a fight that that was. We shot both endings, but the client, just when you can't screw up our logo or our pattern, you're thinking, you Matt, it would have been a better commercial. But even so that he runs off, which I thought was a little bit corny. And then the kid chases him. But obviously it caught on. The press got behind It. Well, he was stealing. I mean, he stole the idea that he basically would have eaten the Chris. And then he's still stealing the Chris. But there's something funnier, I think, about that ending.

[James Reed]

So that was the first.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah, that was the first. And then that got like. So it was only meant to be a one off.

[James Reed]

Yeah.

[Paul Weyland]

And then the client realized, because his publicity has been talked about on. On the radio, it's been mentioned in the press. And then we did another one which was. They thought, right, quick, let's get onto this. And then we did another one which wasn't as good. And then oddly, we then did one with Gazza.

[James Reed]

Right.

[Paul Weyland]

Where Gary gets.

[James Reed]

So we weren't really the famous Paul Gascoigne.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah, yeah. Where basically Gary is at a football match and Gaza's behind. Gaza tries to pinch one of his Chris.

[James Reed]

Right.

[Paul Weyland]

You could probably find these and if you want to show them in the podcast, we could put them over there. And then we do this thing. Because Gaza cried at the quarter. Where was it? In the final.

[James Reed]

The semi final, unfortunately.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah, the semi final.

[James Reed]

Remember it?

[Paul Weyland]

Well, we put tears in his eyes. Again, you have slight browse with the agency, because the agency wanted even just to have tears running down his cheek. I wanted to push it and make it a cartoon. So I kind of put pipes and there was a water machine. Yeah, yeah. Squirting the tears out. And the agents said, no, no, you have to carry it. We just want the tears. And of course, when we retouch the thing out, it looked hilarious because it was a cartoon that really established the campaign, even though it wasn't Gary nicking the Chris, it was Gary protecting his crisps. But then from there on, we went.

[James Reed]

On and did like, these are obviously a cherished product. After that, you know, everyone wanted Walker's crisp.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah, yeah. And then it just went on and on and on. And then it was almost like a Woody Allen movie where all these celebrities would want to be in Walker's ads.

[James Reed]

Yeah. So you had an interesting experience with one of these Walker's campaigns, where it was a new product, I think, and they spent a lot of money on a campaign and then Tesco's sort of hardballed them. Yeah, tell us about that, because that's quite interesting.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Sort of commercial story.

[Paul Weyland]

Here's the thing, right? And everyone, obviously, advertising builds success, Brands become really popular, people want to buy it. And here's the thing, it's not really just about the ad. The ad is just one of the many things as, you know, tools in your arsenal to get people to buy the product. Obviously, supermarkets were getting more and more powerful, and where you were in the supermarket was key. So if you weren't on that center gondola or whatever as you walk in or whatever, and they put Pringles there, that would be a bit of a problem. There were always issues with the supermarkets where they would say, they know you're doing a really big campaign. They know you've spent a load of money last minute. They say, you have to do a deal with us because if you want that gondor, if you want all your points out there, you're gonna have to sell us your product a very reduced price. And often they would fall out. And so there was no point in running the ads because obviously that was there.

[James Reed]

Oh, so the whole investment was made in the ad and then.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah, and then they. And then they would then come to an agreement down the line, and then. Yeah, but it was. Yet the more successful the product becomes, the more the supermarkets played horrible with them on price.

[James Reed]

That's interesting because they're getting more margins.

[Paul Weyland]

And then that means that they then think, well, can we really spend all that money on the advertising if at the last minute Tesco or Sainsbury's or.

[James Reed]

Whoever ratchet on us. Yeah, yeah.

[Paul Weyland]

Are going to kind of do a dirty on you. And I think that, you know, it went on quite a long.

[James Reed]

If you're looking for ways to market your business online or are ready to kickstart your career in digital marketing, check out Reed Learning's digital marketing course. Packed with engaging videos and practical resources, it has everything you need to take your business or marketing career to the next level. The link is in the show notes. Okay, back to the episode. What makes a good client? If you're. If you want to commission an agency or a creative team to do some marketing or advertising work, what's the best way of going about that?

[Paul Weyland]

I'm glad we're filming this because I'm going to point at you.

[James Reed]

Hi, you are.

[Paul Weyland]

You are a good flying.

[James Reed]

Well, why? What did I do?

[Paul Weyland]

Even by mistake, you again, like, saying, I want to. I want my brand to entertain. I want to get the message across, but at the same time, I want it to entertain. And so many clients, you know, the best work that was ever, you know, like Heineken refreshes the parts that other beers can't reach. There was a client called Tony Simmons Gooding at Whitbread, and he had a really brilliant relationship with a guy called Frank Lowe who ran CDP and He trusted Frank. So Frank said to him, tony, follow me with this. And he was right, you know, and those campaigns went on.

[James Reed]

And that's a relationship.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah, it's about a relationship. And. But the big problem with relationships, like, you and I have a good relationship, we've known each other for a long time. You kind of do trust me. But then what happens? The team below you, your marketing team, right, also kind of want their say, do you know what I mean? They just don't want the owner of the company or the CEO who has a relationship with the director or the great director of the agency. They then feel a bit sidelined. So you, as a director or as an advertising, you're always dealing with that structure. It's, how can you keep the marketing team happy so they feel they're making a contribution and normally this situation has never really been resolved because in the end, what kill Walkers was that I had the relationship with Martin Glenn, but we had a relationship and there was a trust built up and every time. And with Gary Lineker, because Gary also is like, he's really smart, as we know, you know, hanger thing. Yeah. But he's just. Everything he touches turns to gold. Right. He was a terrible actor when I first got him, you know, he was a footballer, really self conscious, but slowly he picked it up and he's got a good sense of humorous. And obviously over the years the marketing team changes and they come in and they kind of, they have to follow along because this is successful. You're not going to break something that fix ain't not broken. But then as the campaign got older, you know, they then start researching things and they start. And then someone in a group, a housewife or bloke, said, Gary's looking a bit like Bruce Forsyth. Right. I. E. He's getting old. Right. So they immediately jump on that and then they take, well, we're not going to get rid of Gary, but could we just put him at the end of the ads? So let's come up with a different campaign. But Gary just signs off at the end and you think, what are you talking about?

[James Reed]

So they're in a rocking chair or something?

[Paul Weyland]

No, no. Your campaign is Gary Lineker. What are you doing? You've been fetched in Minions. It's been the most successful Pepsi snack brand of all time. And the reason why it's called Walkers and not Lays where it is everywhere else is because it has been so successful. And basically over the years, Gary and I and it, you know, in a way we had to play Hardball. And if there was clients on the shoe that would ask us stupid questions, we would say, that's a stupid question, and we're not doing that. Right. And we would normally. Right. And we had the benefit of the people up top, you know, because it.

[James Reed]

We kind of need a senior sponsor.

[Paul Weyland]

No, no, no. Because we were the guardians of the campaign. Right. I knew what that campaign was. I knew the beast of the humor. I knew when Gary knit things that he wasn't evil with his knicking. There was always a twinkle. And a lot of people didn't really get that. And then they were. Anyway, so in the end, we survived for 22 years. They bought us a fantastic dinner, they gave us plaques, they gave us gifts. But then the new people that came in wanted us out. They wanted rid of Gary and they wanted rid of me because we just had too much say and they felt marginalized.

[James Reed]

But nothing lasts forever, though, does it?

[Paul Weyland]

No, no, it doesn't. But at the same time, very linear. Carried on for some time. But again, how you take a campaign on is really important because they add this heritage, but they didn't take it on very well. And I will say now, you know, it's not sour grapes. Bloody well it is. No, it's not sour curry. But can you name me more? Because that's all right. They're now using David Beckham and Jerry on it. But again, it's not that well done. It's not that funny. But it's gone. So they invested all these millions and millions. Something. And if they would have found someone to hand on the mantle to, they still had a campaign. Irresistibility. Irresistibility. And I, you know, over the years, obviously it changed, because then that's a simple idea. Irresistibility. It's one word.

[James Reed]

Yeah. And that's the essence of that. Walker's campaign. And I agree. I mean, when you've got something like that, why would you ever let it go?

[Paul Weyland]

Just be brave. That's what all I would say. And for kind of marketing, people, just don't employ a dog and then wag the towel.

[James Reed]

It's let it bark.

[Paul Weyland]

Well, let it bark. Yeah. But make sure you're choosing the right person in the first place.

[James Reed]

It's very important. That's what we're all about.

[Paul Weyland]

Casting is everything.

[James Reed]

Casting is everything. I like that. I think people within companies, they. They sort of tire of the commercials sooner than the. The people outside. You might see them occasionally on their way to work or on the tv. Yeah, talk me through that. I mean, it's sort of.

[Paul Weyland]

Again, you know, for your example, I'll go back to Reed, right. We had Love Mondays and we. There were a few iterations of it. The, you know, we changed it a bit. We had, hello, I'm James Reed, which you obviously liked, but we had it and professional again, and we moved it on and we made it thing and whatever. But still, you know, the Martin team were always going, but, you know, LinkedIn. Is it LinkedIn?

[James Reed]

I can't remember.

[Paul Weyland]

All right, well, whatever. Yeah, those also rounds. They're new and they're a bit more modern and they're this and they're that And I'm thinking, but Reid, I trust Reed, I trust Reed with my career. Reed have been round, they've given. They've put so many people into jobs. They know what they're doing and, you know, and then all the new technology comes along and it's like, well, you know, this is this and this is that. But ultimately, if you've got a good idea, you stick with that idea and it stands out. You don't have a huge budget. You know, you're not Orcus, Chris, you're not PepsiCo, but you have certain amount of budget. But what that means is that the commercials have to actually work harder because you're running them a lot less.

[James Reed]

Yes. Yeah. Well, the Love Mondays idea.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah, I love that.

[James Reed]

Putting two words together that aren't often associated with each other. Yeah, that was your idea. And that. That says everything about what we're trying to do in terms of helping people progress.

[Paul Weyland]

Ultimately, there's no. I just feel that when a client has rules where within the first three seconds you have to say the product name. Right.

[James Reed]

That's a rule you come across.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah. A lot. This is. If you go to the. No, you know, you research something with one of these research companies.

[James Reed]

That's almost the first word then.

[Paul Weyland]

Well, that's what I'm saying. So what restriction does that put on the creative process? And here's the thing. When we were growing up, we would clients, we respected clients that paid the bill, but the clients respected what you did and while you kept that working. But we can't. You know, you could do a great ad, but if Tesco decide that they want to charge you too much to be on the Dongler aisle, then we can't really do anything about that. Is advertising. Well, you're going to ask me, is advertising changing? I think for the last 10 years of my career, everyone was saying the 32nd AD is dead. You know, everything's gone on, you know, social media and whatever. And then sunny. That really hasn't happened.

[James Reed]

Still. We're still.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah, they're still important of the landscape. Well, and also with things like Netflix. Right. Suddenly they've gone into advertising. You know, they're running ads. You need content and what clients really are plea. Yeah. I plead with clients. Right. Stop being prescriptive. Be creative with your product. Ask that of the agency. Look at what the agency have done for other and say, I want that standard, you know, I want my commercial to stand out because there's so much noise out there that there is even more need for a creative approach to your product.

[James Reed]

That's very well put. I agree. I mean there's so many channels now where you can put your message out. To have a strong creative message gives you a chance of being noticed only.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah, exactly. And that is about the amount of money you spend and whatever. But. And that is it. It's competitiveness off the scale competitiveness.

[James Reed]

So that's super. I mean it's supercharged competitiveness. Isn't it in business now? I mean it's so globalized. It's so sort of instantaneous.

[Paul Weyland]

And I also think you need to like take chances. Right. All I can say is a lot of the great campaigns. Bond in research. Heineken refreshes the parts other beers cannot reach. Bond in research. But the client was brave. They liked the idea and it went ahead and then ran for years and years and years.

[James Reed]

I guess the research was done before it was launched.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah. Yeah.

[James Reed]

So someone in that organization said, yeah, hey ho, this focus group, maybe we'll. We'll bin that.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

That's interesting. Why did they do that? Or how did they have the confidence to do that? You know leaders, that's about leadership and being clear about your objectives and having.

[Paul Weyland]

And. And here's the thing.

[James Reed]

Confidence in the people you work with.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah. And kind of leadership is key, but also stakeholders. Everyone's a stakeholder. What happens, you see. So if there's so many opinions, what the hell, you know, my. My sons are now doing what I did.

[James Reed]

Yeah. That's interesting. I wanted to ask you about that.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

No, no. But your son. So I think it's interesting that your sons are both doing.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah. And I did everything in my power to talk them out of it.

[James Reed]

Did you?

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah. Because I had the time of my life. Right. I had freedom. And here's the thing. You know, Alan Parker once said to me, and the phrase stayed with me forever or the advice, never let someone else Set your standards because you're done for. You have to have your own vision and you have to go with it no matter right or wrong. Stay in that lane.

[James Reed]

How does a company or a marketing team surface their particular narrative? You know, what's the process behind that? Have you got any thoughts that might help people?

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah, I think the people and clients hide too much behind research. And you know, they've Obviously, you know, CEOs have got into their position because they've relied on their instincts. And I would go, I would ask people to get raw, get, get with that blank piece of paper, say, all right, well we, you know, okay, so there's a bigger cream content or there's a bigger this, there's a bigger that simple message, five words, what you want to say and you are the client. You would live with that product, but don't, but just kind of make it as simple as you possibly can and then ask your agency to be as an imagination, as imaginative as they can without concept. And I know that it is really hard for clients because I think the trust has gone from the relationship with clients and ad agencies. And I think that there's this whole thing where agencies need to survive and I think everything is tied up with fees and you know, whether you pay retainers or whether it's a one off project or whatever. And I don't think advertising should be a one off thing. I think what you want to say is that I want, I need famous advertising for the next 10 years and I want it to be a campaign that is consistent. I want continuity. If you work with an agency and you've been really happy with the result that you end up with, ask to use that director again because then that director will feel an ownership towards you and to the brand. There's too much jumping around and a lot of that thing happens when you know, again, complications between the director, the production company and the ad agency can be quite tricky because sometimes when they employ a really good director, they don't necessarily go back to him, even though he's done a really good job on the last one, because they don't want it to look like, oh, it's that director that's bringing the magic dust. We should care about that. Our only brief is to make the client's product successful. And you know, as I said from the beginning, it's not just about the ad, it's about where it's placed, the distribution and whatever. But the ad is key. And the ad now with Netflix and all these streaming people, ads are going to be coming back again. You know, at one point it wasn't. And it was then we went on, as I said, on social media with the bots and all the likes. And were they really getting the likes?

[James Reed]

Yeah. So, Paul, you went on and made feature films, and so you moved from advertising into making feature films. How was that? Tell us about that.

[Paul Weyland]

Different. I think my big problem was that I like doing advertising. I always like coming back to the womb. And again, where I become really unstuck was when my naivety finally caught up with me. If everything goes right, there's no story, there's no balance. So. And you learn from.

[James Reed]

I think that's really interesting because you said your naivety caught up with you, but in any career we all have moments of failure or crisis or where things go wrong. So how did you deal with that? It must have been difficult at the time. But you went on and carried on being very successful. You did more films, you did more ads.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah, No, I think what happened was, again, it gets back to that line about allowing someone else to set your. So this was with David Putnam, who was a big deal at the time, did lots of very successful films, you know, worked with a lot of English directors on their first films that became very successful. And I ended up getting the turkey, you know, and I went in there thinking, ah, could make anything work, because that's what I got used to, you know, like, basically when you work in advertising, mostly you're polishing a turd. Sorry to say that.

[James Reed]

Mostly. Not always.

[Paul Weyland]

Not always. But in nine times out of 10, you perfume in the pig. Maybe that's a bit better than polishing a turtle.

[James Reed]

I'm getting the message, okay?

[Paul Weyland]

You get a message. So then you start to believe, well, I can make anything work in a commercial. 30 seconds, you're gonna get away with it. You put a bit of a joke in. There's a wink, there's an eye, there's a movement, there's a bit of an idea. You're gonna get away with it. You go to 90 minutes, you ain't gonna get what. You're going to be really exposed because people can't. They're not going to sit through 30 seconds of not being that great. But an hour and a half, they leave the cinema, you know, luckily enough. You know, I'd been working with Richard Curtis on things previous to that. And then I met this guy, Duncan Kenworthy, and I went to work with the Henson Organization with a writer called Anti Miguel, who is, like, seriously talented. And I got involved with Storytellers and a thing called Living With Dinosaurs. And suddenly the quality was back.

[James Reed]

Yes.

[Paul Weyland]

And I'd almost like, yeah, it was hard because it.

[James Reed]

Yeah, well, you persevered.

[Paul Weyland]

I was wounded, but I persevered, came back and just thought, yeah, I can get this back. And. Yeah. And then that started to win awards and the advertising thing kind of. They kind of took pleasure in Paul Whalen, like, getting his comeuppance.

[James Reed]

Well, it's a lot. I mean, a lot of people enjoy that when someone's successful.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah. Yes.

[James Reed]

Yeah, yeah.

[Paul Weyland]

Like Mr. Cocky is like. Yeah. So. Yeah.

[James Reed]

So you mentioned both your sons had followed in your footsteps into advertising. You also said that a lot of the younger generation haven't got. Don't really get it or haven't got the experience. What advice would you give to the next generation coming into this profession to make themselves as capable of being successful and impactful as possible?

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah. I mean, again, it's about confidence. And as I said, when you don't know much, it doesn't matter, because as long as you have an idea, because what people are looking for is how. What voice? How do we find our voice? And maybe through your voice, that might happen. But what I think people need is that if you young people, if they do a good job, they get the business again. Do you know what I mean? This is the trouble, because it's almost too random. So then they don't care as much, I think, oh, I see.

[James Reed]

The relationship isn't being sort of developed and not being retained.

[Paul Weyland]

Continuity, to me is everything. Continuity between an ad agency and a client. A trust needs to be built up. And then I think the work will then develop and the work will become solid and then we'll have great foundations. If you change your campaign, you change your idea every time you're just fishing. And I just. Yeah, you're, I think, rudderless in a way.

[James Reed]

Very interesting.

[Paul Weyland]

And young people, again, you know, I say to my son, so they get really annoyed with me, said, dad, you know, we're doing. We've got this. Well, I better not go into D spell. But they turned me in. I go, no, no, you don't want to do it. You don't understand. And you don't understand the business now, you know, there's really big directors just taking on this stuff because they just do it for the money. And what I, you know, obviously, yes, I liked earning the money, but I. I would turn down more staff than I did, you know, this is really.

[James Reed]

So you turn down opportunities.

[Paul Weyland]

I would in the. In My successful years I would Turn down probably 9 out of 10 commercial.

[James Reed]

Sent to me because.

[Paul Weyland]

Because I just didn't feel that I could bring anything to them and they wouldn't be good enough. Now if I.

[James Reed]

This is the point about your standards. Yeah.

[Paul Weyland]

So now what happens is anyone. People would just take, just take the money. And my son say, well, you know, we. But dad, what are we going to do? Because there are no good, good ads out there. So that is not a good message for them.

[James Reed]

I mean the world has changed. Has it? The market has changed.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Probably it's more, it's more all over the place.

[Paul Weyland]

But what are the most successful things ever? The best album is always like a really good half film that sells the best film is normally a really good film.

[James Reed]

Message is quality. Quality.

[Paul Weyland]

Yeah, quality, quality. And then if clients, this is the thing. So clients get a bit carried away with their, you know, prescriptive idea and what all the bits that they want to put in. If directors were more honest and agencies were more honest that this isn't really good enough, then the client would have to go, all right, well can you make it good enough so someone will do the job?

[James Reed]

Yeah. So I'm going to ask you two closing questions, Paul, which I ask everyone. The first question is what gets you up on a Monday mornings?

[Paul Weyland]

I've been lucky, really. I, I think that my environment and in a way the idea that you work your whole life and then suddenly you're not going into the office anymore, which is, you know, I kind of. I don't like to say the R word because I am still involved with lots of things but the idea of. I love being in the country, I love nature, I love how it changes and I love that it's not predictable. It's a bit like doing an ad. You don't really know what the outcome is going to be. But if you get that magic dust and you get the light right and it all feels good, that gets me out of bed and you know, the, the life that one leaves with your grandchildren and yeah, I feel very, very lucky. I thought when my sell by date was over, which was inevitable because it happens, you know, the world changes and people don't, you know, young people don't want necessary that wisdom. They don't want, oh no, dad, it's different now or, you know, you can't do that anymore. So I think that I'm pleased that I didn't become this basket case that I don't have anything to do because I seem to have lots to do.

[James Reed]

Yeah. I think a lot of people listening to this will enjoy your wisdom. So I think this is a good one. I feel we've bottled it and captured it which is really useful I think and helpful. So the, the last question I have is where do you see yourself in five years time?

[Paul Weyland]

I'm probably adding more holidays with you and Nicola.

[James Reed]

Really? I look forward to that.

[Paul Weyland]

Where do I see myself? I don't know. James think that, you know, you just want to live life. I mean and I think in the environment now with what's going on in the world is quite, you know, do I ever say in that. And this is the thing, it's almost like the bigger picture is where do I see myself? You want the world to be a better place to live. You want the country and the economy. You want people to be as a unit. You want things to happen together, you want continuity, you want the people to feel proud of where they live. So I would like to see that happen and be part of that instead of all the negativity that's going on. And I don't again I don't want to be come across as being negative. Oh it's all change. It's not like. Because there is always hope and there is always a way of just people need to be confident and sure. You're not always totally sure. I'm sure. But even if you're not, pretend you are.

[James Reed]

Okay. Stay hopeful. Yeah. Stay confident. Things will improve. I believe that too. Thanks Paul. Thank you very much. Thank you to Paul for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host James Reid, Chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you're interested in a career in marketing or the creative industries, visit reed.co.uk to find a job you'll love. The link is in the show notes. See you next time.