21. Fix your ops issues and save thousands every year by looking at THIS data | Anita Dougall

Summary

Podcast Summary: James Reed: All About Business
Episode 21: Fix Your Ops Issues and Save Thousands Every Year by Looking at THIS Data | Anita Dougal
Release Date: March 31, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 21 of "James Reed: All About Business," host James Reed engages in an insightful conversation with Anita Dougal, the founder of data consultancy firm Sagacity. The episode delves into how businesses can harness their data to address complex operational challenges, enhance customer engagement, and significantly improve financial outcomes. Anita shares her extensive experience and actionable strategies that have transformed some of the UK's largest brands by turning data into tangible business value.

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Sagacity's Approach to Data Utilization

Improving Return on Investment (ROI):
Sagacity primarily focuses on leveraging data to enhance the ROI for businesses. Anita explains, "What we focus on Sagacity really is improving return on investment for businesses" (01:46). This involves using data to drive growth and enhance customer engagement through effective segmentation.

Customer Engagement & Segmentation:
Anita emphasizes the importance of understanding customer preferences to tailor communication effectively. She states, "If James likes a letter, let's send James a letter. If James likes SMS, let's send James SMS" (05:17). This personalized approach reduces waste in customer contact and minimizes customer irritation.

Data Normalization (Single Customer View):
Using the Automobile Association (AA) as a case study, Anita discusses how Sagacity created a Single Customer View by normalizing and integrating data from multiple systems. This approach allowed AA to swiftly consolidate customer information, which was initially projected to take three years by other companies (03:09; 04:25).

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Solving Operational Issues: Billing and Debt Management

Billing Issues:
Sagacity identifies common billing problems such as customers never receiving their bills or being overbilled. Anita explains, "We've never found a business with that yet" (10:25), referring to the discrepancy between expected and actual billing outcomes. By analyzing data across different departments, Sagacity uncovers issues like system breakdowns that lead to billing lapses.

Debt Challenges:
With rising costs in various industries, debt collection has become increasingly challenging. Anita highlights, "As prices are rising, the income is not probably rising proportionately" (11:53). Sagacity assists clients in proactively reaching out to customers who may be struggling to pay, offering support and solutions based on detailed data analysis.

Sagacity's Methods to Resolve These Issues:
Sagacity utilizes comprehensive data segmentation to identify different customer behaviors, from those who need financial assistance to those who simply haven't received their bills. Anita notes, "We use data heavily and a lot of the time our client's data itself is to help segment those customers" (14:47). This strategic outreach often results in significant improvements in collection rates, with up to a 30-40% uplift in a month (18:32).

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The Journey of Sagacity: From Startup to Growth

Anita’s Background:
Anita shares her professional journey, starting in investment banking at a young age. She recounts her challenging interview experience and eventual realization that the investment banking environment was not for her (20:11; 22:44).

Starting Sagacity with Family and Friends:
Following a stint in telecoms and a failed broadband startup, Anita was inspired to establish Sagacity alongside her brother Harry and best friend Malka. She explains, "We decided that we would set up Sagacity and it would be a third. A third, A third" (27:00). Their complementary skills—Malka’s operational focus, Harry’s analytical prowess, and Anita’s stakeholder engagement—fueled their initial growth.

Challenges and Growth Strategies:
Starting as independent consultants, Sagacity secured contracts with major clients like Virgin Mobile. Over time, they expanded their team from contractors to full-time employees, growing the organization to nearly 200 employees today (30:13).

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Advice for Aspiring Entrepreneurs

Anita offers five key pieces of advice for those considering starting their own business:

1. Just Do It:
   "Don't overthink it. If you've got an idea... I get on with it" (30:25). Taking decisive action is crucial.

2. Build Strong Relationships:
   "Surround yourself by good people and people you know and can trust" (31:17). Anita emphasizes the importance of trust and reliable partnerships.

3. Engage with Clients Effectively:
   "Identify who your clients are likely to be and go and talk to them and see what they need" (31:38). Utilizing personal networks to understand and meet client needs is vital.

4. Deliver on Promises:
   "Do what you promise. I think is really, really key" (32:30). Maintaining a strong reputation through reliable delivery builds trust and encourages business growth.

5. Manage Finances Wisely:
   "Make somebody accountable for the money... treat each other fairly" (34:33). Effective financial management and clear accountability prevent common pitfalls.

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Building a Cohesive Team: Hiring and Culture

Value Sets and Cultural Fit:
Anita stresses the importance of hiring individuals whose values align with the company's culture. She shares, "One of the biggest things we're looking for is their value set" (41:10). This includes attitudes towards work, customers, and the products or services offered.

Interview Techniques:
To assess candidates' values, Sagacity employs specific interview questions that reveal how individuals handle difficult situations and their genuine motivations. Anita explains, "You might say, talk me through where you've had a really difficult situation... how did they overcome it?" (41:57).

Creating an Engaging Work Environment:
By focusing on cultural fit and allowing roles to be tailored to employees' strengths and preferences, Sagacity ensures that team members are motivated and excel in their positions.

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Managing Investor Relationships

Selecting the Right Investor:
When Sagacity sought investment to fuel further growth, cultural alignment with the investor was paramount. Anita notes, "The biggest thing we were looking for is a company that's culturally aligned to us" (36:42). This alignment ensures harmonious decision-making and mutual support during business fluctuations.

Expectations and Long-Term Goals:
Anita discusses the typical three to five-year cycle with private equity investors, focusing on achieving growth strategies that benefit both the company and the investors. She advises entrepreneurs to understand that such partnerships are not indefinite but are geared towards achieving specific milestones (40:09).

Maintaining Open Communication:
Regular board meetings and transparent conversations are crucial for aligning goals and addressing challenges collaboratively with investors (38:17).

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Closing Thoughts and Personal Insights

What Drives Anita:
When asked what motivates her, Anita passionately responds, "The fascinating stuff we do with data with our clients, that's what gets me up" (46:11). Her enthusiasm for data-driven solutions and client success underscores her dedication to the field.

Future Aspirations:
Looking ahead, Anita envisions advising smaller businesses and empowering young entrepreneurs, particularly those who may not thrive in traditional academic settings. She believes in nurturing entrepreneurial spirit from a young age (46:55).

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Notable Quotes

• James Reed (04:25):
  "It's only a one syllable name, which is very confusing. Yeah, you can still read in lots of different ways."

• Anita Dougal (05:17):
  "The key in all of that is really understanding the customer and getting the engagement right."

• Anita Dougal (10:25):
  "We've never found a business with that yet."

• Anita Dougal (29:14):
  "We are known and have a really strong reputation for very good delivery."

• Anita Dougal (34:33):
  "Having enough money, I think there's various ways to run a business and de-risk some of the money needs."

• Anita Dougal (43:35):
  "I'm a great believer that people will excel in something they like."

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Conclusion

Episode 21 provides a comprehensive overview of how Sagacity leverages data to solve operational issues, enhance customer engagement, and drive financial growth. Anita Dougal's journey from investment banking to founding a successful consultancy offers valuable lessons for aspiring entrepreneurs. Her emphasis on cultural fit, effective client engagement, and meticulous financial management serves as a guiding framework for building a resilient and thriving business.

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Links and Resources:
For more information about Reed Global, Sagacity, and Anita Dougal, refer to the show notes accompanying this episode.

Transcript

[James Reed]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. What's the key to increasing revenue, improving customer relationships and making better business decisions? According to today's guest, the answer is hidden in your data. Anita Dougal started her data consultancy Sagacity, all the way back in 2005. Since then, she's worked with some of the UK's biggest brands, spinning their data into business gold. In today's episode, she'll explain how you can use your data to solve your most complex business challenges and to turn your data into dollars. Anita, thank you so much for coming to talk to me this afternoon on All About Business. I've been looking forward to this conversation very much because it's all about data, isn't it? And you are the sort of leader in data services and data analysis and we hear so much about data. People are always saying you need to know more about data. The sort of secret is in the data. But you're a person who actually does stuff with data and your business. Sagacity makes it its job to help companies use data much more effectively. I want to understand what is it you do first and how do you do it?

[Anita Dougal]

What we focus on Sagacity really is improving return on investment for businesses. That's one of our biggest things that we look for for data. You know, this data, you could do security data, you could do quality on data, you can do return on investment or growth, et cetera. So it's so such a broad topic. What we focus on is really increasing either that growth for companies or really helping with that customer engagement and segmentation. So that's the facets Sagacity that we deal with. So if I really take you through some real examples, we will help companies with challenges on growth to really help acquisition. So AA is a recent example. You can go onto the scarcity.co.uk website and have a look at the testimonial where they really wanted to understand the customer and grow their customer base base mainly through cross sell. The challenge they put to us was they've got customers on lots of systems and different products and they need a mechanism of bringing that together, but they need to bring that together really quickly. And most companies had advised them that it was a three year journey to do that, given how vast the AA is.

[James Reed]

So this is the AA that was described as the fourth emergency service. So people who come and fix your car, but you talk about cross selling, they do insurance and other products.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, so they do various things and.

[James Reed]

You'Re helping them, but what their sort of motor support database is separate from their insurance database, is that what you're saying?

[Anita Dougal]

Yes, yes.

[James Reed]

So how do you approach a problem like that to help them grow, build their business?

[Anita Dougal]

So what we did was understand how many systems they've got with data in there on the customer and what systems have what products. So what we put together was a solution then that, that brought together what we call a single customer view. So bringing all that data together, rather than having to work each system and change each system was actually build a solution over the top. What we call single customer view, that takes the feeds from all those various systems, normalizes the data, I. E. So we understand it, we standardize that data, we join that data. So we might have James Reed for example, appearing in different ways. It might be with an S, without an S, with one E, two E's, etc.

[James Reed]

Yeah, you can still read in lots of different ways. It's only a one syllable name, which is very confusing. Yeah, I mean you joke about that, but that's a problem with data, isn't it? Because the little changes, little differences can confuse and lead to the wrong outcomes and conclusions.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Reed]

So the AAA example is interesting. You used the term cross selling. This has always been a sort of goal in business to, you know, you have a customer that uses one of your services but not another. How do you get them to use both? And I've found that in my career, really difficult. You know, they might want because they're very clear what they want and they, they're buying one thing and they don't necessarily want it. Have you found that this sort of greater knowledge of data or this forensic examination of data actually enabled that successfully? I mean what, what was the AA's journey? Have they made more cross sales than they were in the past? Is that actually working? Because that would suggest this is a change in the weather on that subject.

[Anita Dougal]

Well, the key in all of that is really understanding the customer and getting the engagement right. So that means engagement in terms of tone of the communication. It's the type of communication. So if James likes a letter, let's send James a letter. If James likes sms, let's send James sms. So this is where we utilize our data to add that personalization so that increases that engagement, so there's less waste in that customer contact. And also you're not irritating the customer by just sending them anything you feel like.

[James Reed]

How do you know if I like a letter though?

[Anita Dougal]

I mean, so we have preferences that are captured by you in some kind of mechanism. So it might be you've responded to mail, so that might be recorded, it might be that you've responded to digital communication, so that's recorded. And wherever we get these, if you imagine bits of information, we're continually building that profile of the customer. So we have really clear data at individual level as well as demographic, sort of geographical level on how customers like to be contacted. And we do that either by real data or modeled data. It's really accurate.

[James Reed]

You mentioned you help companies build their businesses through, I guess, added sales. But you also mentioned that you help them with debt and the financial side of things. How does that work? What do you do?

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, so we use data across the customer life cycle. So right from prospecting, acquisition, billing or in life, right the way to debt collection. So we will use data. If we just take billing and customer management for a minute, I think a bit surprising. So sometimes this can be a hard sell. But we've never been to a company where they don't have billing issues ever. And what do we mean by billing issues? So we will look at data, we will look at process and we will look at people and join them up. And often that billing journey has a cross functional element in companies. And that cross functional element means that a customer's joined and that is dealt with by one department, the billing happens by another department. Yeah. So you've got all these different departments and silos in companies. What we're doing through the data is understanding the process and the people, but bringing it together through data. And what we will often find is things like customers that have never been billed. Now that's always a surprise to most companies. So they've been onboarded, they're using the service. And this is, you know, a good example in telecoms, for example, we do this and we do it in agriculture.

[James Reed]

So some people aren't getting their telephone bill.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah. Or water bill or electricity bill or.

[James Reed]

They'Re not going to ring up and say, hey, you haven't sent me the bill, are they?

[Anita Dougal]

No, they're not.

[James Reed]

Yeah. So you're surfacing those.

[Anita Dougal]

So we're surfing.

[James Reed]

You find that a lot, do you?

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, it's multiple millions in larger companies and even in the small companies it's.

[James Reed]

How does that happen? Because it's not been passed successfully from one department to another.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah. So it happens. So some of it's through system. So, for example, I've acquired 100 customers, but only 95 have reached the billing system because there's been some exceptional problem along that system journey and nobody's really picked up the exceptions or understood them or processed them. So whilst the customer's receiving the service, they're not receiving the bills.

[James Reed]

So you do you sort of run a cross check where you look at all the customers and look at all.

[Anita Dougal]

The bills and say, look at the bills.

[James Reed]

These ones are missing.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Reed]

Do some customers get billed more than once?

[Anita Dougal]

Yes.

[James Reed]

So the reverse is some people are getting overbill.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, we look at overbilling and under billing because with regulated industries, which is what we operate in, both of those things are a problem. There are fines for businesses that are over billing and there are obviously challenges with revenue with under billing, losses and losses that are experienced. But the other thing that is of interest for most companies is we'll also go back to contracts and look at what the contract says versus what should happen. And you would be surprised how many times they are not aligned. And if I give you an example to bring it to life, it might say that if you join X, you will get a discount of y for 12 months. When we go and run the data, that discount is still running on those customer accounts. So it was never taken away at month 12. Now we're in volume business. This is big money. Or it says you've got to buy these three services for you to get the discount. So the customer joins with the three services and then cancels one and hasn't got the right, really, to have those discounts. But they're never removed by the system because the system's not been configured. But then no governance is in place to go and check that either forensically.

[James Reed]

So you're really digging into the detail, aren't you?

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Well, it sounds like there's a huge amount of money at stake in these big organizations right there in the detail, in the data.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, yeah. And that's the biggest issue, is putting the data across what should happen to what does happen.

[James Reed]

And they're never the same.

[Anita Dougal]

No, never is the word. We've never found a business with that yet, so.

[James Reed]

Interesting. So none of them are doing what they think they're doing. They're all doing something different.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

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[Anita Dougal]

And then I think just moving on from billing, you've got the debt journey. Now, every company has a debt challenge and that could be what's a debt challenge. So this is where customers are being billed. So our clients have their customers B2B or B2C being billed but not paying. And that could be they're not paying at all, or it could be they're paying really slowly. Either of those, as we know, present a challenge to businesses.

[James Reed]

So are you seeing that more and more? Is that an increasing phenomena that people aren't paying or.

[Anita Dougal]

Yes, it's definitely increasing as the bills are rising. We all know you talk about energy here. Well, any industry really.

[James Reed]

All prices are rising.

[Anita Dougal]

All prices are rising.

[James Reed]

They're not going down in many places.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah. So it's, I mean, recently in the press, Water energy have taken a real hit on that. But all prices are rising. And as prices are rising, the income is not probably rising proportionately. For some people, particularly those at the vulnerable, financially vulnerable end of the scale, that starts presenting challenges. And what we're really doing is helping customers, our customers. So our clients proactively reaching out to those customers and offering support. So there is a lot of support available to customers that is untapped.

[James Reed]

What sort of things you talk about?

[Anita Dougal]

So if, for example, your income is below a certain threshold for argument, say 20,000, you could contact a water company and there are packages where you can get up to 30, 40% discount off the bill. Now, many people don't know how to tap into that or feel embarrassed to tap into that. We did a survey recently and only 6% of customers knew that there was actually support available to them, but they.

[James Reed]

Could get a discount or reduce bills. So it's worth making that call anyway.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Reed]

But do people pick up the phone when you make that call? Because some of these companies quite hard to get hold of.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, I mean, they, they do. There's sometimes specific lines or you can write in. So this, this topic's taken very seriously by our clients and we see that across the board. There's a big push from sagacity for companies to proactively help customers. Because the other thing our survey extrapolated was that customers were embarrassed to ask for that support, so they don't feel comfortable. So what we're doing through profiling and the data we hold is helping those customers segment that customer base and reach out proactively where we can see people that need help. Because we've got household income, for example, in Our data.

[James Reed]

Right.

[Anita Dougal]

So there's a big push from our perspective that we should be helping those customers. But that's only one end of the scale.

[James Reed]

But where people are entitled to these, these discounts or support. Yeah, they should be getting it, shouldn't they? I mean, that's the.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah. And money's there. Available using the data. Yeah, companies want to use it, but companies have done it the other way where they wait for somebody to contact them to ask and aren't really proactively reaching out to that.

[James Reed]

And you can help them do that?

[Anita Dougal]

We can help the other way, yeah.

[James Reed]

Well, what about people who just don't want to pay because they don't want to pay? Yeah, that's what I was saying. That must be another segment.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, there's other segments throughout. So that's one segment. But you go all the way through to people just not paying and they're not paying because they're not being chased or they're not being chased appropriately. So this is where we use data heavily and a lot of the time our client's data itself is to help segment those customers, but also use some third party data. So we can use third party data where we can see if an individual, for example, you, James, you're paying every bill you receive, but you're just not paying the water bill or you're not just paying the energy bill or the telephone bill that we're seeing for our clients. What that normally indicates is two things. One is there's a process breakdown at our clients where things are not being chased effectively or you've got a problem with that customer which is why you're not paying. So there could be an underlying issue or a complaint. That's not.

[James Reed]

I was thinking, yeah, I might be annoyed about something or I have a complaint that's not being addressed or maybe I haven't seen the bill, I haven't received it, or maybe if it's been sent by email, I missed it or that sort of thing or it went into my company junk or something. Yeah, that can happen. So sometimes it's not because choosing not to pay, just don't know it's there.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah. So often our clients are worried about customer experience and complaints off the back of being chased, etc, but I think they're pleasantly surprised when we work with them and segment their data and reach out to customers and the amount of customers that pay.

[James Reed]

So. So they're worried that you might go chasing these individuals that haven't paid and upset them.

[Anita Dougal]

Yes.

[James Reed]

So how do you make sure you don't upset them because obviously that you want to have, if possible, a fair and equitable outcome for everybody here.

[Anita Dougal]

We do that through the customer communication itself. So we're mindful of the way we're communicating with customers. We also tailor that communication in a way that gets that engagement. And we've always said to our clients, don't be afraid to apologize. So it might be we haven't got in touch with you about your bill, or it may be that you might not have received your bill. So be engaging as opposed to going in straight with you haven't paid your bill and you need to pay it now. And we also do it through outbound dialing. So calling customers and making sure that the teams are coached and trained to handle those calls effectively. But more importantly, if the customer has an issue to listen to that issue, take ownership, address the issue and then take payment. And often that goes amiss. So you'll have agents asking for the money. The client's saying, I've got an issue. And you can see the clashing going on. It doesn't go any further and doesn't go any further. So they're not paying, but you've got.

[James Reed]

To empower the agent then in that sense.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah. And it's good, it's done.

[James Reed]

So how do you do that?

[Anita Dougal]

So it's through coaching, training, giving them their remit, making sure they're really clear about the conversation, making sure they're human in their interaction, you know, not.

[James Reed]

So start with data, but then you're.

[Anita Dougal]

Ending up with the human interaction and systems. So we're training them how to interact with the system, to have a look at when that bill was sent and how much was it, and has the customer contacted them so they can quickly get a profile and then engage with you. And we've got a huge success rate. We can have an uplift of 30 to 40% in a month on collection rates. And these are large businesses with large debts. You can imagine that is multiple millions of pounds.

[James Reed]

And this is through going through this process and reaching out to the customers in new and different ways, or in.

[Anita Dougal]

Fact just reaching out, because reaching out in some cases. But then the other thing is not reaching out once and hoping the customers will react, because customers don't do that.

[James Reed]

Some customers like making sales in a way, isn't it the other end? Yeah, you have to keep going.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, you do. And something we always say is really important is making sure that you do what you say. So if I say, I'm going to call you tomorrow morning, call you tomorrow morning because otherwise you're training the customer to behave in a way that they shouldn't, which is not to keep to promises and you're not keeping to your promise. So it may be that you agreed to call tomorrow and the customer might not answer. You need to diarize and keep going and then use other make mechanisms. So if I've got your phone number, I can't get hold of you. I can send you an sms. If you don't respond to the sms, then I'll send you a letter. You don't respond to the letter. That's where it then escalates into debt collection agency. You can affect your credit rating, etc. So we ask for the journey to be explained to that customer but in a really nice customer engaging way.

[James Reed]

Okay. So Anita, you started this business, Sagacity, I think 20 years ago now. What was your first sort of insight or project? How did you get started? I mean I don't think it was debt collection. Was it or was it?

[Anita Dougal]

It was implementing a system actually for debt collection.

[James Reed]

Implementing a system, yeah. So talk me through that. Your first. Okay, so why you decided to start in business with a couple of partners, I think.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, I mean I started life actually in investment banking on the credit side and analysis for the energy sector. So bp, Shell.

[James Reed]

So you were evaluating these big businesses saying if their share price was likely to go up or down.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah. And they're lending with the bank. Investment banking. So.

[James Reed]

So you're lending them lots of money.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, billions, billions to these companies and.

[James Reed]

You had to decide at the age of the price.

[Anita Dougal]

21.

[James Reed]

21.

[Anita Dougal]

The age of get that job? I have no idea.

[James Reed]

Well, good for you.

[Anita Dougal]

How did I get that job? Actually a friend put in the application for me because I never thought I'd get that job. But yeah, one interview I'll never forget actually my life, it was so intense.

[James Reed]

Why was that?

[Anita Dougal]

Well, to get these roles, why was it?

[James Reed]

What was intense?

[Anita Dougal]

Intense, just the, the interview starting at 8 o'clock in the morning till 6 at night, full on different scenarios, financial tests, English literacy, accountancy, a set of accounts put in front of me that I'd never read and then to present to a team. So you had a whole day of intense interview. I, I remember at one point thinking I was going to walk out because I just thought it was awful, couldn't cope with it. In fact I remember calling my father during the day? Yeah, during the day, quickly to say I think I'm going to leave. And the best thing he ever said to me Was if you leave, you haven't got the job. If you stay, you may have the job.

[James Reed]

So that was good advice.

[Anita Dougal]

That was good advice. So I stayed and they phoned me the next morning to say I'd got the job on the top grade and I'd done really well.

[James Reed]

And you were surprised?

[Anita Dougal]

I was surprised.

[James Reed]

Well, that's interesting. Why do you think you got that so wrong?

[Anita Dougal]

I don't know.

[James Reed]

It's interesting, isn't it sometimes really hard to tell what's going on.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah. I think it was just the pressure and the intensity.

[James Reed]

You're also performing in a way. Yeah.

[Anita Dougal]

And you're 21 years old.

[James Reed]

Yeah.

[Anita Dougal]

So, you know, now you think of it differently. But then it was just intense questions. My first experience. So I did that for three or four years and then I decided it wasn't for me. It was very male, stale, pale investment bank.

[James Reed]

You're around me.

[Anita Dougal]

Yes, I am. I always break rules.

[James Reed]

Clearly. Yeah, yeah, I'll let you. Let you have that one. I normally counter it, but go on. So you didn't. You felt it was, you know, and.

[Anita Dougal]

I think I was the only female and only non white person really in the bank across that whole floor.

[James Reed]

I'm asking you this genuinely, was that a motivation for leaving?

[Anita Dougal]

No.

[James Reed]

So you, you observed that, but that wasn't why you left?

[Anita Dougal]

No, it wasn't why I left, but I observed it to think, is this for me?

[James Reed]

Right.

[Anita Dougal]

You know, really given this environment, was quite structured and stayed and, you know, wasn't really fast paced in any way. Everything was too methodical and it was a great experience. And I know why it had to be like that because you're dealing with billions of pounds with large.

[James Reed]

It's just a different culture.

[Anita Dougal]

But the culture, Business culture. Yeah, the business culture made me leave because I couldn't see I wouldn't personally.

[James Reed]

Be drawn to that either.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

As a culture.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah. So I just thought that's really not for me. So I went another extreme and joined a company called One to One at the time, which was a mobile telephone business that nobody had really heard of within the M25. And I think everyone thought I was mad. Going from an investment banking environment, really hard to get into and probably very well paid. Yeah, very well paid. In fact, I think I was paid probably what graduates get paid today, 30 something years on. So I was very, very well paid and then decided to go and join this company called One to One that no one had heard of. And I remember people saying, why would anyone want a mobile phone? Why Are you joining a mobile phone business? Because nobody really had mobile phone other than a few businesses had mobile phones.

[James Reed]

They were car phones, weren't they?

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, yeah. And I love the campaign that they launched with, which was a phone every day for everyone. And they were saying that they were going to get the mobile phone into the mass market. And I think, you know, that was just a brilliant point in my career because I joined the company really early on and watched it grow to millions of customers and got the opportunity to work in lots of different areas. So I then thought actually it'd be good to go and do something different. And I joined another startup company which was a European broad based, a broadband based company. It was quite high risk and it was interesting because.

[James Reed]

But you're moving from banking into technology here, aren't you?

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, so I moved into telecoms and then this was broadband, you know, moving another stage. Because that wasn't.

[James Reed]

That was new.

[Anita Dougal]

That was new. That company folded six months later.

[James Reed]

Not all startups succeed.

[Anita Dougal]

No, no, they don't.

[James Reed]

Important truth.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Reed]

And in fact, most don't.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, most don't. And that was an interesting moment because I could see quite a lot of tears in the room and I was really excited that everyone, just not everyone but me, I'd been made redundant.

[James Reed]

And you were excited?

[Anita Dougal]

I was excited by that.

[James Reed]

Explain.

[Anita Dougal]

Because I thought actually I could go and set something up now and it's going to force me to do it.

[James Reed]

Right.

[Anita Dougal]

So that's why I was excited.

[James Reed]

So this was going to make you.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Embrace the next chapter.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, yeah. So I decided that I wasn't going to take a permanent job and I was actually going to go and set up on my own, which I did for six years pre Sagacity. So.

[James Reed]

And so that was as a consultant.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah. So as an independent consultant.

[James Reed]

And what were you consulting?

[Anita Dougal]

My first contract was Virgin Mobile consulting on a debt challenge. They had. They had no debt system to manage it.

[James Reed]

I see.

[Anita Dougal]

And then that's where the idea started generating into we could do something more with this. And that's when Harry Malka.

[James Reed]

So they're your business partners?

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, yeah. So Harry's my brother, Malka's my best friend.

[James Reed]

Right. That's interesting. Family and best friend.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

It's quite high risk that, isn't it? Well, if you all fell out, you did not have a friend or. Well, obviously you haven't. Obviously. So I hope you haven't.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, Quite a lot of people had said that. In fact, my accountant was really nervous about it.

[James Reed]

Right.

[Anita Dougal]

At the Time and said, look, Anita, you're doing quite well. And you know, is this the right thing? He's a good friend of mine even today and he has said that your journey's been amazing because. Yeah, still my best friend. In fact, even more of a best friend. And Harry's my brother and also a friend. So.

[James Reed]

So that's worked out well. So may I ask, did whether you're a third. Third. Third. Is that.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, so that's what I decided at the time was that we.

[James Reed]

Did they invest money in it as well?

[Anita Dougal]

No, no, we just decided that we would set up Sagacity and it would be a third. A third, A third. And I think that's, you know, really good way of doing things because I think a lot of business people that I talk to or businesses fail, they don't have that attitude. They think either pay into it or this. Whereas I'm a great believer there's enough for everybody. And actually if you share that.

[James Reed]

Yeah, then no, this is really interesting. I had another guest here who had a business partner. I said, what about a triumvirate as I called it, you know, a three like you're described. And he thought that wouldn't work. So you're living proof that it has. Yeah, I'll send him the episode. So. So how do you work together, those three? I mean, obviously three co owners. But what are your different sort of special.

[Anita Dougal]

Responsibilities now or early on?

[James Reed]

Well, when you began, how did you.

[Anita Dougal]

When we began, who did what? Yeah, yeah, we worked as a team and we've got very different skill sets and we recognize that and we use each other. All right, so depending on the skills.

[James Reed]

Talk me through each person what the skill sets are.

[Anita Dougal]

So Malka is very operational process and delivery focused. So very operational and really good at that. Shaping something from nothing in order to make it executable. She's excellent on that. Harry's very analytical. So business cases analysis, data. He's. He's that. And then there's me. My skills are really around the stakeholdering, the selling, the engagement with clients. Customer facing, very customer facing. I mean, we're all customer facing.

[James Reed]

So who looks after the finance side of it?

[Anita Dougal]

Harry.

[James Reed]

So he's got. So he's dating, but. And then. So you're the sort of front. You go out and open the doors and get. Yeah, really tracks and then they'll come behind you to deliver them.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was very.

[James Reed]

That was how it works at the beginning.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah. And then we all got involved in recruitment and we. Yeah, we all got involved with.

[James Reed]

So you, there are three of you at the beginning and then you hire a fourth person. So the first person in between. How did you agree on who to hire?

[Anita Dougal]

Well, we had a need on. On one of the contracts we'd won and it was around technology and data. Because what we're doing is if we're helping clients in the debt space, which is what virgin contract and that was one of our contracts with Sagacity as well as just they were a long standing customer was that data and technology. And we'd worked with a couple of guys historically and they're still with us today. So those two joined the business as independent contractors. So we were all contractors rather than employees. So it de risked anything early on. And we run that model actually for a little while in the business before we started bringing employees on. But it was the assignment project based.

[James Reed]

Work was there, I suppose at the time.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's how I guess the journey.

[James Reed]

So how many people do you have today?

[Anita Dougal]

Nearly 200.

[James Reed]

200 people?

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

What advice would you give to someone thinking of starting up now? If you're thinking of starting a business today, you know, what top five things should you be thinking about, Anita?

[Anita Dougal]

Firstly, just do it, don't overthink it. If you've got an idea.

[James Reed]

If you've got an idea.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah. Because I think the problem is people would like to have their own business, don't have the idea. And that's where I think it sometimes goes wrong. And they almost dwell on that for years. But actually if you've got an idea.

[James Reed]

So what was your first idea?

[Anita Dougal]

So my first idea was to go and be better than other consultancies and give proper practical advice.

[James Reed]

So you would like to be measured by your sort of results?

[Anita Dougal]

Yes. Yeah. Make it measurable.

[James Reed]

It's okay. So you've got an idea, so what else do you need?

[Anita Dougal]

So I get on with it.

[James Reed]

What else?

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah. So I think having the idea and not overthink it. Secondly, relationships so surround yourself by good people and people you know and can trust.

[James Reed]

And you couldn't have done better than your best friend and your brother, I suppose in that respect.

[Anita Dougal]

Exactly.

[James Reed]

So know and trust.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, yeah, trust. Thirdly, build that engagement and rapport with clients. Yeah. So identify who your clients are likely to be and go and talk to them and see what they need.

[James Reed]

How do you get in front of them?

[Anita Dougal]

So using your network. So I would say everybody has a network and sometimes they don't realize they have a network. And what I mean by that is could be a next door neighbor, it could be a relative, it could be somebody from your previous employment, if you were employed. So use your network and people you know to help you and people are willing to help. I mean I have people starting businesses now and I'm always willing to help them or introduce them to our advisors or people I know or.

[James Reed]

Sure.

[Anita Dougal]

So I'd say part of it's just.

[James Reed]

Knowing what they want or asking.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah. So I think that's really important. I think the fourth thing is to deliver on what you say. So build that reputation.

[James Reed]

You said that more than once.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Doing what you promise.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, do what you promise. I think is really, really key. We are known and have a really strong reputation for very good delivery. You were listening to a video earlier from Synergy Bank, Paul Trotter and so.

[James Reed]

What have you done for Synergy Bank?

[Anita Dougal]

So Synergy bank, we've done a variety of transformation programs, really helping them with new applications like the mobile app or building or understanding what they need to build.

[James Reed]

So you help them build a mobile app for their banking service.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, so it's helping project manage or do some analysis or help with the tech in, in some cases. So it's really helping businesses in that space. So delivery is absolutely key. And then the fifth thing is billing and collections, making sure you've got the money in the business. Don't over expose yourself too quickly. So keeping an eye on the finances and actually one of the strong advice I'd say is where businesses fail, where there's more than one person involved is over the finances. And I think what do you mean going. So somebody might start saying, well I've done more hours than you or I deserve more of the share of this or, or things haven't been billed properly. So it can happen from a relationship point of view or it can from a transactional point of view. And I'd say make somebody accountable for the money. So in our with us three, Harry was key in leading that and trusting and making sure that that's happened. Of course you have governance, checks and balances but you know, just treat each other fairly and then I think that's a key recipe for success. Most businesses that fail that I talk to or aren't progressing. There's always some issue around money, generally odd ones we talk to.

[James Reed]

The obvious one would be they haven't got enough income, I suppose. But I suppose you're saying it's beyond that. It's how it's administered.

[Anita Dougal]

It's how it's administered and managed.

[James Reed]

Yeah, that's what you see invariably.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, yeah. See that where we see businesses fail or business owners I've spoken to. But having enough money again, I think there's various ways to run a business and de risk some of the money needs. It's almost like you need to sell a bit before you grow. And that's how we started actually. We would never go and overstretch ourselves. We only employed people when we had the money to employ them. We.

[James Reed]

So do you, do you borrow money? Do you have debt in your business?

[Anita Dougal]

We do today, but we didn't and pre. Say five years before that. So 15 years. We run the business with no debt and we were cash rich as an organization because we were very, I guess, astute with how we ran that and not to get caught up in some of the things you can, you know, everyone's always giving you great ideas to bring in this third party and bring in this system and bring in that into your organization. And before you know it, you get caught up into it and you can spend a lot of money, which I think can be a waste. And I think the key there is to choose the right investor. So.

[James Reed]

Well, that's interesting because you obviously as a triumvirate, you've sold some of your shares to a sort of. Now four of you involved, is that right? Yes.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

So how did you come. Yeah, how did that work as a decision making process? You obviously didn't sell the whole company. You've decided.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, talk me through that. Yeah, I mean we kept a proportion between the three of us, but I think we got the company to a stage where we recognized that in order to grow we needed fresh ideas, different type of investment into the business. So, you know, if we're buying a business, it's multiple million pounds we need. So we wanted to de risk ourselves by bringing in an investment company. And I must admit I think we took quite a lot of time trying to work through. Did you the type of investor we needed?

[James Reed]

Did you speak to a few people?

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, we spoke to a lot of people.

[James Reed]

It was an elaborate courtship process here.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Reed]

You spoke to a lot of people.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, we did, we spoke.

[James Reed]

So what were you looking for in that?

[Anita Dougal]

So we were looking for. The biggest thing we were looking for is a company that's culturally aligned to us. So the way that they operate and we operate, how could you tell they understood us through the interactions we were having. They were understanding our products, they were understanding us.

[James Reed]

So how would you describe your culture?

[Anita Dougal]

So our cultures, it's very fair. It's open, it's honest, it's fast moving, it's, you know, wanting to get on with stuff. So we didn't want to have a partner that took forever making decisions. We didn't want a partner that didn't.

[James Reed]

So can do culture.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, a can do culture, but also that. Listen, so a lot of investment houses are very spreadsheet driven and nothing else. Whereas they were demonstrating whilst the spreadsheet is important, so are people and supporting founders in a business. So that's their real ethos, which we've been living through for three years. So when things in business, as you know, they don't always go the way you plan. So sometimes we know that. So they go the way you plan.

[James Reed]

They go the way they go. You have to keep going.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah. And sometimes they don't. And what we found with those guys and we had those open combinations conversations at the beginning is they've supported us through that rather than feel they can beat you up because you haven't met this number. Etc.

[James Reed]

Yeah, so. So they feel like partners, do they?

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, they do. And I think that's really important because sometimes people go into these relationships with investors because they're desperate for the money. So we weren't desperate for the money because we were cash rich. We wanted more the capability, the ideas, the growth story and strategy. So I think so.

[James Reed]

So if someone who's grown a business was thinking of seeking a investor, you said look for cultural match. Is there anything else they should look for?

[Anita Dougal]

The reason I say cultural match is key or was for us. Prior to that, we had a small investor engaged with Sagacity and they were just not a cultural match. And that made it really difficult and made us not enjoy our job for a period. And it was.

[James Reed]

How did that manifest itself?

[Anita Dougal]

That was more what in terms of.

[James Reed]

What were they doing that made you.

[Anita Dougal]

Not enjoy, you know, continually on the numbers, you've missed this, you've missed this. And you know, it's that beating up type feel continues without understanding any reason. Rationale. And you all know, James, in business the economy changes, clients change.

[James Reed]

Yeah, you win some, you lose some.

[Anita Dougal]

It goes up, it goes down, you.

[James Reed]

Know, over the long view, you want to be going forwards and improving.

[Anita Dougal]

Exactly. So as long as you've got that longer term. So they just didn't fit with us culturally, but QPE did and that's why we spent a lot of time. And I think if you can get the people element right, like I said throughout, really, if you can get the people element right with clients during sales with clients, during engagement, with investors. The rest kind of flows because you can work together, providing, you know, you've got half a brain cell and a product and a service that sells, then I think you get through it.

[James Reed]

But is there an expectation from a private equity investor that you've got to sell the business at some point because they want their payday, don't they?

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah. So there's normally, you know, a three to five year cycle with investors and then if the growth strategy's been achieved, then obviously they get greater multiples and so do we.

[James Reed]

Yeah. So that's a sort of part of the expectation or shared goal.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Reed]

But people going into the, into an arrangement like this need to understand that you can't stay in there indefinitely.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, necessarily.

[James Reed]

I suppose some private equities sell to other private equities, don't they? Sort of.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah. Or trade or. Yeah, yeah. And then that part of the strategy is, is agreed and, you know, have regular board meetings where we can have those sensible conversations.

[James Reed]

You've asked, you've mentioned the people aspect of this quite a lot. And, and I want to ask you, when you recruit people, this is my favorite subject, what do you look for in terms of building your team? Because you built a team from where you originally hired two people to join. We didn't persuade them to join and start a business. You build a team of 200. What are you looking for in the people you hire?

[Anita Dougal]

One of the biggest things we're looking for is their value set. So what is their value set in terms of their attitude to work, their attitude to customers, their attitude to the product or service you're selling? You know, how much research have they done, how much have they looked into it, how much do they really want the job? That cultural fit again as well is really, really important because they've got to fit into the teams and make sure they embrace the culture that we've built as an organization.

[James Reed]

So how do you identify someone's values? That's quite hard, isn't it?

[Anita Dougal]

No, I think you can extrapolate and understand some of that through some of the questions that you ask them directly.

[James Reed]

Or what do you ask?

[Anita Dougal]

Well, it's just sometimes through questioning. So you might say, talk me through where you've had a really difficult situation. What's that difficult situation been? And you can see, how did they overcome it? And you can often see their value set. Sometimes you'll see people go, oh, listen, you can see that. Oh, probably not the value set we want because of what they've Just said the outcome of that issue was. And then sometimes you can think, well, they handle that really maturely and they've dealt with it in an appropriate manner. That's a really good example. So.

[James Reed]

So tell me about a time when type question.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, yeah. And I think that draws out quite a lot and I think in our questioning they're probably not standard. Give me your strengths. Weakness. What have you done here? It's trying to understand them more. You know, a question like, how would you be described down the pub? What do you just not like? And I always give an example, you know, I say, I don't like sitting in front of a spreadsheet, but I love seeing the output of one. So I say, look, it's okay to say what you don't like and what you like because you ask them what they don't like. Yeah, I asked them what they don't like. And I say that's really important to us because we have so many different roles that we can adjust a role to what you.

[James Reed]

I suppose a lot of people ask that question and think, oh, I better be careful what I say. Let you. You want to hear what they don't like so you can make sure they're in the right.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah. And we explain that. So I say, look, and part of the role is this. And if you say you don't like that part, we can remove that part and actually focus on the bit you like. Because I'm a great believer that people will excel in something they like, as opposed to many organizations will spend time training people in what they're not good at and what they don't like.

[James Reed]

Yes. No, I agree with you. I mean, if you. There was so much more energy unleashed if people are doing things that they like. I said, listening to that, I'm thinking, well, I suppose, do I want someone to understand me better or not? You know, you're saying I can. I know whether you want to get an SMS or whether you'd like to get the post, is that. Is that helpful or is that threatening? Because there's so much data, you said it can take you in infinite directions. And some people are worried about these big companies having all this data and other people feel that maybe it will enable them to get a better service or. Well, if you remember how can you reassure me, Anita?

[Anita Dougal]

Well, one of the things I said early on is we will only use fully permissioned data and we will use it for the purposes that that data has been permissioned for. So each data attribute in the company has a tag what we can use it for. So if we have data on you, for example, James, it might be we can only use it to market something to you, but we can't use it for debt collection. Or it might be we can only use it for debt collection, but we can't use it for marketing. So each data has to be marked, but it's fully permissioned in the sense that you've given permission for that data to.

[James Reed]

But how do I give permission for my data to be used for debt collection?

[Anita Dougal]

So.

[James Reed]

Because if. If I knew that might not. Yeah.

[Anita Dougal]

So, for example, you may sign up to sky, for example, and in their terms and conditions will be that they have the right to send your data for debt collection if you don't pay. So most contracts will have that in there.

[James Reed]

Because I've said that once that applies.

[Anita Dougal]

Well, that then applies for sky to use that data, but just for Sky. Yeah, just for Sky.

[James Reed]

So people who are doing this should be aware that that's what they're doing. Yeah, that's important if you've got a.

[Anita Dougal]

Concern and you can always go back to that data. So if you can't remember and you say, right, I've now received this from Boots, for example. So all these are clients of ours, boots, Tesco's, the AA I've mentioned. So we've got over 350 brands that we work with.

[James Reed]

Right.

[Anita Dougal]

So.

[James Reed]

So communicate. We're communicating with millions of people every day.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, yeah, we are. Our data's out there. So you could then come back and say, well, where did I permission this? And we've got that detail as to where it was.

[James Reed]

So if I, if I was to ask that, you'd be able to tell me.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

And now I like asking these two questions that I ask everybody. I'm going to ask you. And the first question is, what gets you up on a Monday morning, Anita?

[Anita Dougal]

I think the fascinating stuff we do with data with our clients, that's what gets me up.

[James Reed]

So you just want to look at the next data set?

[Anita Dougal]

I want to look at the next thing that we found we've identified. Just the excitement that our teams and myself come from that, you know, got probably shows huge passion for making that data workable for clients. So I guess I love my job and I love the company and that's what gets me up on a Monday morning.

[James Reed]

I can see that. Thank you for that. And the last question is a question from my interview book. You've mentioned some of the questions you like to ask. This is one of our fateful 15. So it's a classic interview question that people get asked often which is where do you see yourself in five years time?

[Anita Dougal]

I could see myself advising businesses, smaller businesses and I could see myself helping young children that don't enjoy school. But how to become entrepreneurs. Interesting because I think there's a big link there.

[James Reed]

I mean, a lot of the entrepreneurs I've spoken to didn't go to university and didn't perform particularly well at school.

[Anita Dougal]

Yeah, I think there's a link.

[James Reed]

Yeah. So I wish you well with that. Keep encouraging them. Anita, thanks for coming in.

[Anita Dougal]

Thank you. Thanks, James.

[James Reed]

Thank you. I enjoyed that very much. Thank you, Anita, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reed, Sagacity or Anita, all the links are in the show notes. See you next time.