22. 82% of management are 'accidental managers'. Here's how to fix it | Ann Francke, CEO of CMI

Summary

Podcast Summary: James Reed: All About Business
Episode 22: 82% of Management Are 'Accidental Managers'. Here's How to Fix It | Anne Francke, CEO of CMI
Release Date: April 7, 2025
Host: James Reed CBE, Chairman and CEO of Reed Group
Guest: Anne Frank, CEO of the Chartered Management Institute (CMI)

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Introduction: Understanding Accidental Managers

In the 22nd episode of James Reed: All About Business, host James Reed delves into a critical issue plaguing modern businesses: the prevalence of "accidental managers." Citing a recent YouGov survey, Reed states, “82% of business leaders are accidental managers” (00:00). To unpack this phenomenon, Reed welcomes Anne Frank, CEO of the Chartered Management Institute (CMI), to discuss the root causes, impacts, and solutions related to untrained managers in the workforce.

Defining Accidental Managers and Their Impact

Anne Frank provides clarity on the term "accidental manager," explaining that these managers are typically promoted based on their technical expertise rather than leadership skills. “Most people put in management positions, a whopping 82%, according to our research at the CMI, aren't trained in management” (01:52). This lack of training leads to significant challenges within organizations, as the relationship between managers and their teams becomes a pivotal factor affecting employee well-being and performance. Frank emphasizes, “the biggest determinant of your well-being and therefore your likelihood to perform well and to stay at work, is your relationship with your line manager” (01:52).

The Need for Professionalizing Management

Reed and Frank concur on the necessity of viewing management as a professional discipline. Reed articulates his belief that management should be as rigorously trained as professions like medicine or dentistry: “It's about better results at every level in your organization. Better cultures, better growth, better outcomes” (54:31). Frank echoes this sentiment, advocating for the professionalization of managers to enhance organizational performance and employee experiences. She questions the cultural acceptance of amateur management, highlighting the "cult of the gifted amateur" prevalent in Britain (06:20).

Key Competencies for Effective Management

Frank outlines four critical competencies that new managers must develop to transition from accidental to effective leaders:

1. Communication: “Communication is not only what you say, it's what the other person hears” (08:50). Effective communication requires managers to ensure clarity and mutual understanding.

2. Clarity: Managers must clearly define expectations and objectives, utilizing frameworks like SMART (Specific, Measurable, Actionable, Relevant, Time-bound) (09:10).

3. Compassion: Being aware of and empathetic toward employees' well-being is essential. Frank notes, “Bad managers have absolutely no regard for how their behavior impacts others” (11:00).

4. Coaching: Managers should adopt a coaching mentality, focusing on developing their team's skills and confidence rather than merely directing tasks (12:08).

Challenges in Management Training

One of the primary hurdles in professionalizing management is overcoming cultural resistance to confrontation and feedback. Frank discusses the natural discomfort many leaders feel towards addressing conflicts, yet underscores its importance for maintaining a healthy organizational culture. “Most of us will go out of our way to avoid [conflict], but one of the hallmarks of a good leader is that they lean into it” (34:55).

Building a Positive Organizational Culture

Frank shares insights on fostering an inclusive and supportive workplace culture. Highlighting the importance of resolving toxic behaviors, she recounts a scenario where a CEO identifies toxic culture origins and takes decisive action to address it, emphasizing the need for accountability and external coaching (28:08). She also discusses the significance of sponsorship in promoting talent, differentiating it from mentoring by explaining that sponsors actively advocate for their protégés’ advancement within the organization (38:36).

Gender Equality and the Say-Do Gap

Addressing gender balance, Frank reveals that while there has been modest progress in closing the gender pay gap, significant challenges remain in achieving parity in leadership roles. She introduces the concept of the "Say-Do Gap," where organizations claim inclusivity but fail to implement effective diversity initiatives (50:58). Frank calls for actionable and measurable steps to enhance diversity, moving beyond mere symbolic gestures to tangible changes in hiring and promotion practices.

Practical Steps for Leaders

Frank offers practical advice for leaders aiming to improve management practices within their organizations:

• Train Managers Professionally: Invest in comprehensive training programs to equip managers with essential leadership skills (53:26).
• Promote Sponsorship: Actively support and advocate for high-performing employees to foster their career growth without favoritism (40:38).
• Encourage Open Communication: Establish a culture where feedback is regularly exchanged, and managers are approachable and transparent (09:05).

Concluding Thoughts: Making a Difference as Leaders

As the episode concludes, Frank shares her personal motivations and future aspirations, emphasizing the importance of making a positive impact through effective leadership. Reed and Frank underscore the critical role of conscious leadership in driving organizational success and fostering inclusive, supportive workplace environments.

Key Takeaways:

• Accidental Managers: A significant portion of managers lack formal training, impacting employee well-being and organizational performance.
• Professionalization of Management: Viewing management as a profession with structured training can lead to better business outcomes.
• Essential Management Skills: Communication, clarity, compassion, and coaching are pivotal for effective leadership.
• Addressing Cultural Challenges: Overcoming discomfort with conflict and actively promoting diversity are necessary for a healthy workplace.
• Sponsorship vs. Mentoring: Sponsorship involves actively advocating for employees’ advancement, distinct from mentoring’s guidance role.
• Say-Do Gap: Organizations must move beyond declarations of inclusivity to implement concrete diversity initiatives.

Notable Quotes:

• James Reed (00:00): “82% of business leaders are accidental managers.”
• Anne Frank (01:52): “Most people put in management positions aren't trained in management.”
• Anne Frank (08:50): “Communication is not only what you say, it's what the other person hears.”
• Anne Frank (34:55): “One of the hallmarks of a good leader is that they lean into [conflict].”
• Anne Frank (50:58): “People are paying a lot of lip service... they’re not putting in place action plans.”

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This episode provides invaluable insights into the pervasive issue of untrained managers and offers actionable strategies for cultivating effective, conscious leaders. By professionalizing management and fostering a culture of continuous learning and inclusivity, organizations can enhance both employee satisfaction and overall performance.

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Timestamps Reference:

• 00:00 – Introduction to the topic and guest
• 01:52 – Definition and impact of accidental managers
• 06:20 – Cultural factors contributing to accidental management
• 08:50 – Key competencies for new managers
• 12:08 – Challenges in management training
• 28:08 – Building a positive organizational culture
• 34:55 – Importance of confronting conflict
• 38:36 – Sponsorship vs. mentoring
• 40:38 – Ensuring sponsorship without favoritism
• 50:58 – Gender equality and the say-do gap
• 53:26 – Practical steps for leaders

Transcript

[James Reed]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. A recent YouGov survey found that 82% of business leaders are accidental managers. So what is an accidental manager? Why are there so many of them? And just how much is it affecting results within your business? Joining me today on All About Business is Anne Frank. Anne's the CEO of the Chartered Management Institute, where she provides cutting edge training for managers of all levels. We discuss what makes a great leader, how to stop negativity from spreading, and whether gender equality is truly on the horizon. I've thought for a long time that too many people in Britain in particular, look at management as a sort of amateur activity. And I believe passionately that it should be professionalized and that with more professionalized managers, our companies will perform better, people will have better experiences at work, and the economy will do better as well. So. So I think what you're doing is so important and I think this conversation is an opportunity for us to explore some of the ingredients so that you can share some of your thoughts, ideas and observations. And. But one of the things I've heard you say is that managers have a huge impact on the well being of the people who work for them. I think I heard you say that they're the second most important person in a lot of people's lives. How does that work?

[Anne Frank]

We like to say that we exist to turn accidental managers, those amateur managers that aren't trained, into capable, competent, confident leaders. And that is so necessary because as you rightly said, most people put in management positions, a whopping 82%, according to our research at the CMI, aren't trained in management. They're promoted on the basis of their functional expertise. Right? So they're great IT people, they're great finance people or marketers. And then suddenly someone taps them on the shoulder and says, congratulations, you're leading the team. And the budgets, good luck with that. And this is where the problems begin. And to your point about the impact of line managers on people's well being, it is of course, the biggest impact at work. So the biggest determinant of your well being and therefore your likelihood to perform well and to stay at work, is your relationship with your line manager. And it's actually the second biggest impact outside of work. So that's that second most important person in your life. So line managers have a huge impact on the well being of those they manage. And of course it also impacts the line manager's well being as well, because none of us as humans are completely immune to what we experience in our, in our working day.

[James Reed]

So that's so interesting. So. So the line manager is the second most important person in anyone that works. So that I'm imagining. I'm just saying who's the most important person? Either partner or life partner or parent or.

[Anne Frank]

Absolutely.

[James Reed]

Sibling or whoever they're living with or that sort of thing. But I'm sure very few managers know this. I mean, this is a huge thing. So you go into work and you've got a little team, you have no idea as their manager that you're the second most important person in, in their lives in terms of their well being.

[Anne Frank]

Yes. And maybe if you did, you'd take it more seriously, to your point.

[James Reed]

Well, that's what I'm thinking. You know, how you greet people, how you leave at the end of the day, how you interact, how you give feedback. All of those things are put into sharp relief by that observation of yours.

[Anne Frank]

Absolutely. And this is why, to your point, we need to take it more seriously. And yet far too many people don't. And in fact, it's not just that we don't take it seriously, it's that perhaps we don't respect the position of managers as much as we should. We don't aspire to it. I recently was asked about a finding that many Generation Zed individuals don't aspire to be managers. Now I think in part this is because of the way in which they're managed.

[James Reed]

Right.

[Anne Frank]

They don't have enough role models.

[James Reed]

I don't want to be like them sort of thing.

[Anne Frank]

Yeah, exactly.

[James Reed]

Do you? So what are we getting wrong then? I mean, what are these Gen Z individuals experiencing? Thinking? Well, I don't want to go anywhere near that because it does seem a shame.

[Anne Frank]

Yeah, yes, absolutely. And British business and the productivity of the country in the, in the public as well as private services depends on having people at every level who are really good managers and leaders. And I think the number one thing we can do, and of course this is what the CMI helps with, is train people that management is a profession. There are skills that can be learned just like anything else, whether it's, you know, playing the piano or welding or, you know, many of the other skills that we or being a doctor or dentist. You know, we would never say it's fine to have untrained individuals in those roles. So why do we think it's okay to have untrained managers? This is a conundrum and one of the biggest things that we could all do is take it seriously as a profession and get training and, you know, ask your employer when you're promoted. That's great. I need help to manage this situation. I need to do a course, I need to get some help. I need the skills, I need to practice those skills and that would help a lot.

[James Reed]

Why do you think it is that we see management that somehow doesn't matter so much as being qualified to be a dentist or a doctor? Where did that come, where did that evolve from? Have you got a view?

[Anne Frank]

Well, I do, I think it's. I do think some of it, not all of it, but some of it is cultural. There is in, in Britain, and you'll hear from my accent that I wasn't born here, but I am a British citizen. But you'll hear a lot the phrase in Britain, the cult of the gifted amateur. Right. So somehow muddling through is considered an art form. Is, is considered, you know, a well done. And actually muddling through is, is. Is more often than not, not a well done.

[James Reed]

Yeah. No, no. Listening to you, I've heard that expression so many times and it's, it does fill me with some anxiety, as it should, because things can go wrong and I, I think there was a sort of, I think it was probably considered ungentlemanly to be too sort of qual.

[Anne Frank]

Yes.

[James Reed]

And you know, muddling through looked like you were sort of just naturally capable.

[Anne Frank]

Exactly. And cool and understated. Right.

[James Reed]

Yeah, all of that.

[Anne Frank]

Yes.

[James Reed]

Which doesn't apply anymore.

[Anne Frank]

No, it absolutely doesn't. And I think that that's not what people want. And if I go back to, for example, those young people that perhaps don't aspire, you know, if you're muddling through as a manager, chances are you're improvising. You may not be communicating clearly, if at all. You may not be giving feedback. Right. Because again, feedback isn't what one does, but it is absolutely vital in management. And by that I mean both sides of that feedback coin. Praising. Right. Just saying a heartfelt thanks. That was a job, really. You did great on that project or presentation. But equally saying, you know, you put a lot of effort in there, but it would have been better had you perhaps had fewer words on the slides. Now those are concrete examples of Feedback. And I use concrete examples deliberately because feedback needs to be specific and it needs to be frequent. And that again is something that many managers don't realize.

[James Reed]

So that's very helpful. You mentioned when someone's promoted to a management job for the first time, they might be ill equipped and they should seek qualifications or support in starting out as a manager. You've mentioned communication, you've mentioned feedback. I mean, what are the three to five key things that a new manager needs?

[Anne Frank]

Yes. Okay, well, let me elaborate a little on communication. Because most people think communication is what you say, but in fact, communication is not only what you say, it's what the other person hears.

[James Reed]

I was told years ago that communication occurs in the mind of the listener.

[Anne Frank]

Absolutely.

[James Reed]

Which I really like and I've held onto because you might be saying a lot and no one's listening. Well, you're not communicating at all.

[Anne Frank]

Or exactly. Or what you say is absolutely not what the other person hears. And you go away blissfully, you know, assured in your own mind that you got that point across and the other person is sitting there thinking, I didn't get that, I got something completely different. So when you are communicating, always check after you have a conversation, just say, why don't you play back to me what you think the main points were? Because if that person then plays back to you something completely different than you intended, you have the opportunity, as that conversation is occurring, to correct it. Whereas if you leave it, I guarantee it will get worse, it will get harder to correct, because people's expectations will not be aligned. And that brings me to a second point. It's not just ensuring that what you intended has been heard and listened to. It's clarity. So many managers are simply not clear in communicating their expectations of what they would like their team to deliver. And again, people aren't mind readers. They won't know what you think good looks like. They may have a different idea. And therefore being very specific and clear on the objectives of what good looks like and what your expectations are, not doing the work for them, not going into such detail that they feel overwhelmed, but giving them the clarity of the framework, including how much freedom they have and explaining that to them clearly in what we call smart. You've heard that acronym, right? Specific, measurable, actionable, relevant, time bound. Setting objectives in that way is again a vital part of management. So we have that communication, we have that clarity. The third thing is really compassion, because managers are aware, good managers are truly aware of the impact of their behavior on others. I go back to our Opening point about the impact of the line manager on well being. Bad managers have absolutely no regard for how their behavior, how their often bad behavior impacts others. They don't care. That shows a real lack of compassion and empathy. And again, good managers have to have that. And that final point is that coaching mentality, right? You're there to challenge and support and develop your team. You're not there to boss them about. You're not there to make them feel small. You're not there so that they can make you look good. You're there to coach them and develop them so that one day actually you hope they'll be better than you at their job.

[James Reed]

So they all start with C. I.

[Anne Frank]

Know, conveniently.

[James Reed]

Communication, clarity, compassion and coaching.

[Anne Frank]

Absolutely.

[James Reed]

Very clearly put and really powerful advice. Which one do you think people struggle with the most?

[Anne Frank]

Oh, I would say, James, that it's like that, that Tolstoy quote about, you know, all unhappy families are unhappy in their own way. You can fall down any of those rabbit holes. You can fall down the communication rabbit hole. You can fall down, as I said, for those that aren't self aware, the compassion rabbit hole. You can fall down the clarity rabbit hole. Maybe you say a lot, but it's totally unclear or it's filled with jargon. And you know, also you can be somebody that just never has a coaching conversation. So I think that, that it's possible for poor managers to be poor at one of those four, but probably and in our studies, the thing that people get wrong the most is the first communication.

[James Reed]

We're delighted that you're listening to this episode, hit the follow button so that we can continue to bring you the best business insight and actionable advice to help your business and or career. Very interesting on the coaching. I mean that's not something we sort of know intuitively either. I mean, what are the elements of coaching that a new manager should sort of pick up and run with to start?

[Anne Frank]

Well, again, I think having the conversation is important. So many new managers don't they think that, oh, I only review the performance of the people that work with me once a year. And that is one of the worst things you can do. You know, too often performance reviews are very tick box, fill in the form, tick the scale one to five. That's not really helpful. So a good manager, a coaching manager, will ask open questions at the beginning of every project. Right. So what, how do you think you're going to approach that? You know, what, what do you think needs to be done? Who do you think you need to Speak with about it. How might your output be. Be. Be pulled together? You're actually trying to ask questions and then when the person gives you the answer, then you're picking that up. Oh, okay, so you want to do it that way. But have you thought about who your audience is? Because maybe they won't understand that. For example, I was having a coaching conversation with some people that were putting together a course for undergraduates and they were very proud of their course and they were showing me the language they were using and I was sort of looking at the. And I was saying, gee, who's the. Are you targeting this at undergraduates? And they were saying, yes. I said, oh, okay. Well, do you think undergraduates would actually understand what you've put up there? Yes, they said. I said, well, have you asked any? Oh, no. Oh, all right, then. Well, maybe you should ask a few.

[James Reed]

Yeah, quite. Yeah.

[Anne Frank]

A coaching conversation, you know, it wasn't a listening involved. Yeah. It wasn't like, oh, well, that's never gonna work. That's completely wrong. That's a very bad job. Right. You know, you, if you do that, I guarantee you're definitely not going to get the best performance. But if you point out to people how they might do things differently and better and indeed when they're doing things well, because you're also trying to give them confidence. Right. You've got this, James. You've done this before. I've seen you do excellent presentations to this audience and you will again. You know, it's also about giving people.

[James Reed]

Thank you. I feel encouraged.

[Anne Frank]

There you go.

[James Reed]

Immediately. You said that you had my attention and I was thinking, yeah, I can do it.

[Anne Frank]

That.

[James Reed]

No, but that doesn't. That sort of conversation probably doesn't happen enough.

[Anne Frank]

No, it doesn't.

[James Reed]

And that's, I think, very, very good advice. You, you said, Ann, that you, you, you were about turning accidental managers into conscious leaders. What's a conscious leader look like? I mean, give us the sort of. We've heard about some of the pitfalls.

[Anne Frank]

Sure.

[James Reed]

What, what, what's an exemplar of conscious leadership?

[Anne Frank]

Well, firstly, I would say that anybody can be a conscious leader. And at cmi, we offer a professional qualification and we call it chartered manager. We're the only ones that can offer it. It's a right given to us by the Privy Council. And what it does is codify your behaviors as a professional manager. And you do so in a little bit of an assessment that isn't a test. So you're actually talking about how you behave at work. You're talking about, you know, how do you coach your team, what kind of feedback sessions do you have, what are your team's objectives, how have you achieved those objectives? What were the results, what was the impact on the organization? And you're telling a story full of specific and corroborated examples that show how you do what you do and whether or not you do it in line with what underpins all of CMI's work, which is our professional standard. And we have assessors that are, you know, monitoring what you're, what you're saying and then you can be awarded chartered manager. And that signifies that you are a professional manager. Now you might say, and you know, those listening might say, well, so what, you're a chartered manager. Well, you know, I wouldn't be a good manager if I didn't seek to independently verify the impact. So we do, we verify using an external firm the impact of the chartered manager. And it's quite incredible because conscious managers have absolutely self awareness and self confidence. They improve the fortunes of their organization. If it's in the private sector, just under £60,000 a year over five years, that's almost 300,000.

[James Reed]

So your research has shown this?

[Anne Frank]

Absolutely. They add £20,000 to the GVA of the UK and on average they get a £13,000 pay rise. So there are many impacts, including the impact on the individual and the organization. And of course their teams appreciate that they're being better managed and play that back. 80, 90% say, my chartered manager is doing a better job of managing me. So a conscious leader does all of those things and does them well. And chartered manager is the pinnacle of that.

[James Reed]

So you, you said your conscious leaders, conscious managers have self awareness. Yes, and self confidence. I mean that's a big step forward for a lot of us.

[Anne Frank]

Yes, it is.

[James Reed]

You know, that's. So are you saying that's part of this sort of program of development that you can give people that?

[Anne Frank]

Absolutely, absolutely, yes. Because you teach people to be aware of the impact of their own behavior. It's not something we think about enough. You know, if you go back to those bad bosses, particularly senior people, I would add, who shout or throw things or somehow, I mean, do they really exist though?

[James Reed]

I mean, they do, do they? Well, throwing things, I've never done that. Maybe I've raised my voice.

[Anne Frank]

Well, certainly not you.

[James Reed]

Well, I try not to, but I'm sort of worried now. But, but yeah, shouting and throwing things is not good, is it? This usually in the movies, I always think, well, but it has Caricature boss.

[Anne Frank]

But you're saying it's. No, I wish, I wish, I wish that it were. But, you know.

[James Reed]

So this is commonplace, this level of bad behavior.

[Anne Frank]

Yes. And if you. And, and I would say so a couple of facts on that. Well, first of all, there's just the anecdotal evidence. If you Google my manager is what do you think will come up? It isn't my manager is a conscious leader. It is. My manager is a bully. My manager is harassing me.

[James Reed]

Really.

[Anne Frank]

Right.

[James Reed]

That's what comes up.

[Anne Frank]

That's what comes up. My manager is a micromanager. All of these are exemplars of bad management. It's going back to that 82% accidental manager stat. And unfortunately it is quite commonplace. Our research shows, and this is a very recent survey, that actually half to three quarters of the population have witnessed bad behavior from their managers in the workplace. And everybody out there should be aware that if you're a bad line manager, one out of every two people who work for you are going to leave in the next 12 months. That's what our research says. Because that's how people ultimately deal with bad line managers. They leave.

[James Reed]

So you've said a lot of thoughts running in my mind with that summary. I mean, one is what do you do if you are an employee and you have a bad, or you're witnessing someone being bullied or mistreated and you're in a, in a team and you're not, you're not connecting or enjoying the experience, being led by this manager? What, what do you do in those situations?

[Anne Frank]

Well, see, this is where the impact on well being comes up. It's. People find it very hard to deal with because they're afraid to confront bad behavior.

[James Reed]

They don't want to lose their jobs.

[Anne Frank]

That's right. They're afraid of retribution. And again, one of the hallmarks of being a good manager, in addition to practicing those good behaviors yourself, is calling out those bad behaviors when you see them in others. And again, you have to be appropriate, but you also have to be specific. And so really what people can do. So I think what the manager that sees a colleague being a bad manager should do is just have a quiet word with that colleague. Gee, you know, when we were in that meeting and you shouted at James, or you took Elena's idea and said it was your own, or you interrupted Rosie, any of those things which happen all the time, or you ignored John. Right. These are all behaviors that happen in meetings that are going to impact those individuals. If you're that manager's colleague, you might say, how do you think that made that person feel? Because what you're trying to do isn't say, isn't to say, hey, you know, you're a jerk and a bad manager. That's not going to help. But if you challenge the individual and say, how do you think your behavior made that person?

[James Reed]

Can you do that as their junior? I mean, in the sort of hierarchy of an office?

[Anne Frank]

Yes, you can, but it's, but so for those people who are working.

[James Reed]

So can I have a word with you or something?

[Anne Frank]

Yes, but I also advocate.

[James Reed]

It's quite brave.

[Anne Frank]

It is quite brave. But I also advocate safety in numbers.

[James Reed]

Right.

[Anne Frank]

And, and I'll tell you a story in that regard. I'm, you know, of course, because of what I do, one would like to think, I mean, but this is completely untrue that I've always been a great manager. This is not true. You learn and you always learn. And when I was at Procter and Gamble and I was a senior brand manager, I would say, and, and on the cusp of getting promoted and responsible for a very big launch, and I was very stressed out about it. And, and you know, I was coming into the office every day full of the stress of this multimillion dollar at that time, launch all across Europe. So one day my team and I managed about five people. Three of them came to see me and they said, we want to talk to you about your behavior. I said, oh, okay.

[James Reed]

Putting you on notice. You're paying attention, aren't you? There are three of them. Yes.

[Anne Frank]

And you know, we had offices in those days with doors. So they came into the office and we shut the door and they say, you know, Ann, every day you come in here, head down, you never say hello, you never ask us how we are. And you go straight into your office and you shut the door. And the only time you open that door is to stick your head out and say, I need this now. Or where's that? Or what happened to this? And you know, it doesn't make us feel valued and we don't like it and we would like you to get better and, and, and, and care about us more as human beings. And I thought, geez. Now of course, your first instinct might be that defensive reaction rising up, how dare you. But I just thought, you know, I have to listen to what they're telling me. I have to reflect on it. So I just, and this is what you should always do with feedback, especially if it's negative. Don't Pounce on it. Just say thank you. I'm going to think about that and I appreciate you sharing that with me. And so that's what I did. It was hard. It was very hard for me to do that. But I thought, I am not. I'm just going to say, right, I'm going to take this away and think about it. And then the next day I called them all in and I just said, you know what? You're right and I'm sorry, and that's wrong. And we've been under such stress with this launch and it's just not going to be how we're going to get the best results. So we're going to reset and we're going to build a much stronger team and we're going to spend more time caring and sharing about how each other are doing and what our problems are and how we're feeling and what we can do to help. And we're going to tackle more things together. And I completely changed my behavior. And I have to say, so did they. And we went on to deliver what for decades was one of the most successful P and G launches in Europe. And it was because of that behavioral change and because we built a super strong team. So this works. It did with me. And those folks confronted me together. So back to your question. If you have a situation where you are working for somebody that you feel is not valuing, you think about, you're not the only one feeling that your colleagues will feel the exact same and think about going to talk to them together. But again, be constructive. Like, they didn't say, ann, you're an obnoxious jerk. They said, you know, Ann, your behavior is this. And here's the impact of the behavior on us. Here's how it makes us feel.

[James Reed]

Well, I think your opening line there was, we want to talk to you about your behavior.

[Anne Frank]

Absolutely.

[James Reed]

That certainly had my immediate attention. You know, if three people came into my office and said that, I would be listening. You also said you take time to reflect on feedback, especially if it's negative feedback. And I've sort of thought over the years that I've sort of removed the word negative because feedback's feedback and it's an opportunity to improve, as you just said. I mean, it might hurt at the time, but in a way, you know, it's just information you can. You can embrace or reject after reflection. That's a really great story. And so if thinking about this sort of flawed manager, shall we say. So you've talked about how to approach the problem from the team's perspective, what about if you're running an organization, if you're an entrepreneur or director of a company, you can see that there's someone whose behavior is problematic, toxic perhaps, and is causing unhappiness in their part of the organization, is harming the culture of the company. How do you deal with them?

[Anne Frank]

Oh, so this is one of the, another of my favorite topics and I think what leaders need to realize. And here I'll tell you another story.

[James Reed]

Good.

[Anne Frank]

The CEO of a FTSE Hundred company. Right. So obviously, and actually this person had made this a FTSE 100 company. So their efforts were critical to the success of this organization. And this CEO knew that they had kind of a culture problem. They knew that there was a toxic culture. So they hired what a lot of CEOs do, expensive consultants to come in and crawl all over the place and ask lots of questions. And then the consultants came with the report and they said, okay, we figured out the source of the toxic culture. The CEO was all ears. And they paused. And then they said, it's you.

[James Reed]

Did he asked for a refund at this point?

[Anne Frank]

There you go.

[James Reed]

And it is a he, I'm assuming.

[Anne Frank]

Yes, it was a he. And he was like, what? And they went on to say, and the reason for that is you have a lot of, you have some very dysfunctional members in your executive team, the people that you're directly line managing who are always at each other's throats, always undermining each other. And the rest of the organization sees this plain as day and they see you doing nothing about it. And so the conclusion that they reach is that you don't care. It's fine for people to behave in that manner and the culture turns toxic.

[James Reed]

So either in that situation, either the CEO doesn't care or doesn't know, and neither are acceptable.

[Anne Frank]

Absolutely.

[James Reed]

So the action is required.

[Anne Frank]

Yes.

[James Reed]

So what do they do next?

[Anne Frank]

Yes, well, and if I could add another C to my ever growing repertoire, it would be curiosity, because good leaders are curious. And I always, I always put a, a question mark behind any leader that isn't curious enough to know what's going on in their own organization. A lot of CEOs don't want to know. You know, like one of the worst lines you can say is, you're all grown up. Boys and girls. Sort it out. We're humans, you know, you're the leader. Your job as CEO is to resolve the conflict. That's part of a CEO's job. And when you see conflict, I don't care if it's business conflict or personality conflict. The worst thing you can do is sweep it under the rug or ignore it. So in, in this case, if you're the CEO and you see those two people and they're not getting along and it is undermining everybody else and having a toxic impact on the culture, you have to address it. So, you know, you can, you can do it in. Fundamentally, the steps are make each individual aware that there is a problem and they are part of the problem. Don't just blame one individual for the problem, because that will just take you three times as long to sort it out. Because, you know, it's the old it takes two to tango. Right. So you have to acknowledge that you believe they both share accountability and responsibility for creating that problem, and then say that you want it resolved. Absolutely. It's unacceptable. And that you will help them resolve it. And it may not be you that does this, but this is the. This is where I do think getting external coaching for those two individuals, you know, make clear as CEO, you have to fix your relationship. And because it's having a toxic impact on the organization, I will give you some help in the form of external help and support. But my expectation is this will be fixed, because if it isn't fixed, there will be consequences. And the consequences really in that sense are one or both of you will.

[James Reed]

Go, yeah, that has to be the consequence.

[Anne Frank]

And, you know, it could be that one of those people is a rainmaker. You know, maybe they're a star salesperson. Doesn't matter if, if you really want to have a good culture, you will not tolerate toxic behavior as a CEO.

[James Reed]

So culture is so important in business, and it's quite hard to change a culture.

[Anne Frank]

It is.

[James Reed]

So, so you're. You're saying. I, I think what I'm hearing is you need to protect your culture at all costs, if it's a good culture, and remove people who are not performing according to the values.

[Anne Frank]

Yes.

[James Reed]

And. And that's another C, isn't it? Conflict and conflict resolution, confronting people.

[Anne Frank]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Do you think. I mean, do you think enough leaders do that?

[Anne Frank]

No.

[James Reed]

No.

[Anne Frank]

You know, why is that again?

[James Reed]

Because they haven't learned to or because they haven't got the courage or what is it?

[Anne Frank]

Uncomfortable.

[James Reed]

Makes them uncomfortable.

[Anne Frank]

Most of us. And it's natural. Most human. Not all. I can think of some very notable exceptions right now on the global stage.

[James Reed]

Yeah, I can think of some. Yeah. But we won't name any.

[Anne Frank]

No, no, no, no. Most of us do not enjoy conflict and confrontation. Most of us will go out of our way to avoid it. But I think that actually one of the hallmarks of a good leader is that they lean into it. And, you know, I was speaking with a very senior leader at one of the world's largest consumer goods companies, and this is somebody that used to work for me back in Procter and Gamble days. And that goes back to, you know, don't you want your people ultimately to be more successful than you? And, you know, this, this person is. And so was that Footsie Hundred CEO. These are both people I used to work with. So that's why they tell me their stories. But I do think that what this person said was notable. So what she said was actually one of the things I've had to learn as I've gotten more and more senior as a leader is to lean into conflict. Because some of the best advice I ever got from somebody who was a mentor to me was, you know, you know, Sally, your teams run too smooth. And what they meant by that was, nobody's really surfacing any of the issues. They're just kind of rubber stamping the whole thing. But underneath that, there's all these issues bubbling that you're not seeing or allowing them to see and encouraging them to talk about because you're prioritizing peacekeeping. And that's one of the worst things you can do as a leader. You have got to get under the skin and surface the disagreements, surface the conflicts and help people resolve them. That is your job as a leader.

[James Reed]

So you shouldn't prioritize peacekeeping.

[Anne Frank]

No.

[James Reed]

That's very interesting. I haven't heard that before. So you're saying you should get stuck in and find out what's really going on, be curious and be engaged as a leader.

[Anne Frank]

Yes. And, you know, it doesn't mean you have to be disrespectful.

[James Reed]

No.

[Anne Frank]

But it does mean you have to be clear. Right. And you just have to say, you're all telling me this is fine, but if I'm looking at the numbers here, you know, it's clearly not fine because it's X percent over time and Y percent over budget. And that piece of work needed to be redone. And you said this was green and you said that was red. So this does not seem like. No, it's all fine.

[James Reed]

And you've mentioned Procter and Gamble more than once. And, and, and I've had other guests on the podcast who've worked there and spoken very highly of it as a, as a sort of educational, as a company. Where you learn and, and as a company that you emerge from with skills and knowledge that is perhaps superior to a lot of other companies. There seems to be a lot of alumni of Procter and Gamble and strangely, I used to work in advertising and I work work for Procter and Gamble on the Head and Shoulders Shampoo account.

[Anne Frank]

Oh, wonderful.

[James Reed]

Surprising.

[Anne Frank]

Now looking at me, Saatchi and Saatchi.

[James Reed]

Yeah, I worked with Saatchi and Saatchi on the Head and Shoulders Shampoo account. And the line at the time was you never get a second chance to make a first impression, which was very good, a very strong campaign, and it went very well. But I was aware then that the people who came from that company were pretty smart and seemed to know their staff and very focused on what they wanted. How do you describe that culture? We're talking about business culture, but clearly that's a successful organization, has been for many decades. What sort of culture have they developed there and why is it successful?

[Anne Frank]

So one of the biggest things that P and G does is value the line manager. So it's about, you know, going back to the very beginning of our conversation, that people don't care about line managers. That's why 82% are accidental managers. They don't train them. Not true of P and G. So from the moment you joined P and G, one of your biggest learning and development tracks was learning line management and its importance. And so really, 18 months in, you were line managing somebody and you were being coached by your line manager on how to do that well. And all the while your line manager had been coaching you, you know, on what good looks like, what kind of behaviors are expected. And every evaluation, you'd be evaluated on two things. One was your results, right, the task outcomes, because obviously it's a very delivery, focused, results oriented culture as well. And the other was how did you get them? So, you know, if you got them by, like that story I told, you know, marching in, shutting the door and yelling at, you know, barking at people, give me this, give me that. You would get very. That was not at all well thought of and you would not get promoted. You know, you really did need to coach and develop your people. And that was, I think, the other hallmark. Not only did P and G really value line management and how you led and managed others, and it was a very strong culture of sponsorship as well as coaching. And sponsorship is something else that I think good leaders encourage and do, and was absolutely the case at Proctor and Gamble. And many people, including myself, benefited from it.

[James Reed]

So I've heard of mentoring, but sponsorship sounds slightly different.

[Anne Frank]

It is.

[James Reed]

What is it?

[Anne Frank]

Okay, so the saying there is coaches talk with you, mentors talk to you, and sponsors talk about you when you're not in the room. And so what a sponsor does is very publicly praise your capabilities across the organization to create additional opportunities for you, additional challenges, developmental steps, advocating for promotion. And you know that I was very fortunate at P and G to have a sponsor. It was a very senior gentleman. He happened to be British. This was in Germany. And you know, he believed early on in my capabilities because I said I would do something, and he noticed I said I would do it. It was, you know, I'm going to double the market share and double the profit margin or whatever it was. And lo and behold, I did it. And he was so impressed, he stood up and told the organization, look at this. This was done. It was masterful. It was excellent. And he ensured I got promoted onto the biggest brand the next day. Of course, I was felt completely unprepared. But that sponsorship, he also let me sit in on his team meetings as a junior person. That's real sponsorship. And I encourage leaders to find the talented people in your organization. And again, we don't do this enough. Somehow we think it's unfair. Tell them they're talented. There's nothing unfair about that. Just say, you know, you are a super high performer and you are going to go places and I want to develop you. There's, you know, somehow we think that's unfair. It's not. It's vital.

[James Reed]

So was it. So he, he just, so I understand this properly, he wasn't assigned you. He selected you. He decided. He saw that you were doing good work. And so I'm going to sponsor.

[Anne Frank]

Yes.

[James Reed]

And, and the way he did that was to sort of talk to other.

[Anne Frank]

People about what you were doing, give me opportunities.

[James Reed]

Give you opportunities, Involve you in other discussions that you wouldn't have been in. So help you learn and grow. I think that's really, really powerful.

[Anne Frank]

It was.

[James Reed]

And it's not happening enough.

[Anne Frank]

No.

[James Reed]

And it could happen a lot more.

[Anne Frank]

It could happen a lot more. And you know, again, I think there's. And going back to maybe why we don't do the confronting. And again, I think this is a little bit cultural. Not only do, you know, many, many people, not just British people, but many, many British people do not enjoy confrontation. So, for example, you know, the Dutch are often, people say, and I agree with this, are quite better at it. They're very direct.

[James Reed]

I find myself having confrontations with the Dutch.

[Anne Frank]

There you go. Yeah, right.

[James Reed]

I don't mind the odd confrontations.

[Anne Frank]

Well, there you go.

[James Reed]

That's good.

[Anne Frank]

It is good. And I think there is the British concept of fairness and somehow tapping somebody on the shoulder and saying, you're really good, I want to help you succeed. Somehow.

[James Reed]

Some people think that's unfair.

[Anne Frank]

It's not. It's just like developing talent. And it's quite selfish if you're a leader because you'll get better results.

[James Reed]

So, yeah, no, fairness is very important to us in our culture and I think we can recognize unfairness when we see it. I don't put that in that category. I suppose it might be seen as favoritism. You know, why do you select this person and not this person?

[Anne Frank]

Yeah, favoritism is another form of unfairness.

[James Reed]

It is. So how do you do sponsorship without favoritism? That needs some thought. I would suggest.

[Anne Frank]

Well, I think two things there. One is make sure that your sponsorship is based on results. Now, if I go back to that situation, you know, here that was this middle aged, very, you know, very British guy, you know, and then there was me, this sort of young American woman in Germany. First. First real job, you know, because Americans work between college and grad school, but it's not a real job. And, you know, we were very different. And I think one element of sponsorship, one pitfall to avoid is that you're sponsoring somebody that looks just like you and you're sponsoring them for the wrong reason. They look just like you. One of the worst reasons to sponsor somebody is you remind me of me at my age reason to sponsor someone. Yeah, so. So, you know, that is. That is one thing to avoid is, is try to pick somebody who's completely different to you, has a different background, a different outlook. And the second thing is also, though, make sure it's on the basis of their results. I mean, this guy didn't sponsor me because I was different. Sponsored me because I was on a very small, obscure brand and I got excellent results that in fact did perform very well for the company. So we thought, oh, I think I'll put her on a bigger brand. Right. There was nothing. It was highly calculated. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't philanthropy.

[James Reed]

No, no, no, I can see that, but. And it works. And we've been talking about some sort of behavioral examples of capable leaders. Can you share any specific examples of people you think we should be studying following, learning from that you'd like to tell me now?

[Anne Frank]

Yeah, I think one thing I would say to Everybody is. You can find good leaders everywhere. And I don't think that it's about idols. Now I know that so many people. Who is a good leader? Steve Jobs. Well, actually, he was a visionary, but he was, boy, was he a brutal manager. Like, none of the behaviors we've been talking about were necessarily, may he rest in peace, practiced by him. Doesn't mean he wasn't extraordinarily successful. But my view is, look, let's not focus on the Steve Jobs of the world because they are very few and far between. So what I would say is, I would ask all listeners, because we've all been working a while, who's been your best example of a good boss? And you may have more than one because some may be good in the different ways we've been discussing. And it's fine to have more than one role model. In fact, I encourage you to have a selection.

[James Reed]

You know, think back about people in your working life.

[Anne Frank]

Yeah. Think back about people in your career and who is especially good at coaching you? Who, who is especially clear communicator and, you know, make your little smorgasbord of role models and reflect on how they would have handled situations. Because what I think is so important is good managers and leaders are accessible. So I would say we all have examples of them in our lives and we need to take them more seriously and reflect more on what was it that made them good. Now, of course, there are many, many good leaders in the public domain that, you know, we can all find. But I'm, I'm not looking for the idols. I'm looking for the people that maybe do one thing well. So, for example, you know, James Timson does a certain two things very well. They have that inverted way of leadership where they are very bottom up and they empower their store managers a lot and it makes a big difference. And of course, they also employ ex offenders. Right. That's why he's prisons minister.

[James Reed]

Yeah. He's got a new job. I think his father's had to step back in to run the company. But.

[Anne Frank]

But, you know, but that's an example of. He's maybe very good on those two things. Right. I think another leader I really admire, and again, this is an ex P and G person is Allison Kirkby. She's running bt. She's, you know, she is. And not a lot of people know this, but she will be very honest about it. She did not go to university. She grew up on a Glaswegian council estate. She did an apprenticeship and became an Accountant, that was her route. Now what she is doing, and you will read about this at bt and I know this because I know her, she's very, she's actually leading those people. She's not like off in the boardroom doing deals. She's on the ground visiting the people, visiting the sites, curious about what's going on in her own organization, demonstrating a lot of these qualities that we've been talking about. And it is no accident that the company is doing better under her leadership because she is very visible and hands on. She wants to lead that company. Right. So I think, you know, those are just two examples in the public domain. There are many others. But I do think my advice to those listening is think about in your own life who made those differences. And also, by the way, think about the bad examples because you'll learn just as much from them.

[James Reed]

That's very helpful and thank you. Now you've written a book, I've got it here. Create a Gender Balanced Workplace. You wrote this a few years ago.

[Anne Frank]

I did.

[James Reed]

How do you think we're getting on?

[Anne Frank]

So, you know, the stats are not fast enough. So I think this, the slogan this year is accelerate action and I think that's what we need to do. So if you look, have we made any progress on the gender pay gap? Yes. In fact, we just very recently at CMI did a study across the gender pay gap across the women on boards and across women on excos. And what we found is, yeah, okay, there has been a modest improvement of a few percentage points in the gender pay gap since we've been measuring. So I'm not going to say it hasn't worked. It has created modest progress. But you know, if you used to be paid 80p for every dollar a man earns and now or every pound a man earns and now you're paid 83p or 84p for every pound a man earns. Wow. You have an extra 4p per pound. That's not huge progress. It's not parity with women on boards. We've made more progress, especially in the FTSE 350 now that's trying to be extended out. I think we're over 40. Well, we are over 40% women on boards. But, but what we do need to do, and this is the last vestige, is get more women in leadership and in particular in those, the positions that matter, CEO, cfo, divisional head, where the profit and loss is. So we still don't have enough female leadership on xcos. And the leadership we have often tends to Be in staff roles, general counsel, head of hr, Chief Marketing Officer. We need more women and other people with diverse characteristics in those line management roles because those are often the stepping stones to the CEO role. And that isn't happening anywhere near fast enough. And indeed, in some parts of the world, that's being challenged. And it's not helpful to challenge it because I go back to our opening conversation. When you have diversity in an organization, what you're really doing is creating an inclusive culture. And creating an inclusive culture is about valuing line management and valuing diverse perspectives, and you're creating a better culture for everyone. And what I don't subscribe to and the book talks about this is that, you know, this is not about flag weight. This is not about virtue signaling. This is not about lots of public campaigns and turning things different colors on your LinkedIn. This is about taking actionable, measurable steps to improve the inclusivity of your own culture.

[James Reed]

And that, that has to happen right the way through the business.

[Anne Frank]

Of course.

[James Reed]

So. So why is it that we're not getting more women into the sort of line jobs that you describe? CEO, cfo, divisional manager?

[Anne Frank]

I think it's because of what we at CMI call the Seydoux Gap. And again, we've measured this.

[James Reed]

The say do gap.

[Anne Frank]

The say do gap, yes. We did a piece of research called the Everyone Economy. And we asked across all protective characteristics, not just gender. We asked like two questions of managers and leaders across the uk, Public, private, third sector, large, small. We said, how inclusive do you think your organization is when it comes to X? So that's the say. You know, because they said all of them, whether it was gender or age or sexuality or ethnicity, disability. They said 80 to 90% said, oh, yes, very. We're very inclusive. Okay, good. So now the do. Could you name a specific initiative that you are aware of or have been involved with and its results in this area? That's a do. Suddenly, the percentage that could name an initiative dropped from 80 to 90 to a range of five to just under 40%. And that is what we call the say do gap. It means that people are paying a lot of lip service to this stuff because they see the flags, they see the campaigns, they see all the, the slogans, but they're not doing so. They're not, you know, walking the walk. They're not putting in place the action plans when it comes to promotion, when it comes to hiring, when it comes to putting people in the right roles, that will make the difference.

[James Reed]

And you're saying, as CEO of the cmi. That that's a very important part of being a conscious leader.

[Anne Frank]

Absolutely.

[James Reed]

You see that as critical.

[Anne Frank]

Absolutely. And all the other things that because.

[James Reed]

It makes your organization both morally better and accountable, it's more successful.

[Anne Frank]

More successful. I mean, there's absolutely evidence, and again, our most recent research showed that. That inclusive organizations get better organizational outcomes. Well, if it doesn't matter what you're leading, public sector, private sector, a startup, we all want better outcomes. I mean, that's why I think we're in, in those organizations, you know, is that we want them to flourish and thrive.

[James Reed]

Is there anything else that we should be doing as business leaders to support improving this?

[Anne Frank]

Well, I would go back to the initial point. Professionalize your managers. So train them. I mean, we at CMI can offer that. We can help, but honestly, this isn't just about cmi. This is about getting better results for the, the country and for your company. So don't assume that you or your people know what they're doing when it comes to managing and leading themselves, others, teams and resources and train them. Because this stuff can be learned. That's my main message. It can be learned. You have to take it seriously. You have to think of it as something that can be professionalized. And when you do, you know, this isn't about. And this isn't about some robotic automaton, unimportant, Ugh, those middle managers, who cares? This is about better results at every level in your organization. Better cultures, better growth, better outcomes. It matters. And you as an organization will attract better talent and you'll keep them for longer. So it makes a huge amount of sense.

[James Reed]

I think that's the perfect place for us to conclude our conversation and a very passionate vocation of what you do at the CMI and why we should be. We should be training managers and improving our skills as managers as well. So thank you so much for coming to talk to me today. I have two questions I ask everybody at the end. Okay, so I'm gonna ask you. The first one is what gets you up on a Monday morning.

[Anne Frank]

Oh. So I think you have to love what you do. And I love what I do. I've been doing it for over a decade and I do. My advice to people is if you don't love what you do, do something else.

[James Reed]

That's my advice too. Anne. Visit Reco UK and we'll find you another job. I think we only live once. I think it's so important to love what you do. Love Mondays. And my last question is where do you see yourself in five years time?

[Anne Frank]

Oh, well, let's see. I've been at CMI for over a decade, so I may not be at CMI in five years time, but I know through the work I've done at CMI that whatever I do afterwards, well, first of all, I will still be doing something because, you know, I like to keep active. Um, and, and I will probably be picking up on some of the things I've enjoyed most about my time at cmi, which is, you know, mentoring and coaching other people, advising CEOs and, and, and, and boards, perhaps a bit of writing. But I, I want to make a difference. And, and actually that's one of the reasons I love what we do at cmi is that you feel you have a purpose and you're making a difference. Difference. And I think that this is what we should all aspire to, hopefully a positive difference. Because don't forget, we can also make a negative difference.

[James Reed]

Well, you've made that very clear in your earlier remarks. So thank you so much for coming to talk to me.

[Anne Frank]

Thank you. I really enjoyed it.

[James Reed]

Making a difference.

[Anne Frank]

Yeah. Thanks very much.

[James Reed]

A positive one. Thank you so much.