27. Lewis Hamilton’s brand expert reveals the key to building a winning reputation | David R Mitchell

Summary

Podcast Summary: James Reed: All About Business
Episode 27: Lewis Hamilton’s Brand Expert Reveals the Key to Building a Winning Reputation | David R Mitchell
Release Date: May 12, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 27 of "James Reed: All About Business," host James Reed engages in an insightful conversation with David Robertson Mitchell, a seasoned brand consultant with nearly two decades of experience in branding and rebranding companies. Known as the "Brand Rover," David has an impressive background, including nine years as a brand consultant for the Mercedes Formula One team before establishing his own consultancy, D,DNA-RB (brand spelled backward). The episode delves into the intricacies of brand building, personal branding, reputation management, and the challenges of rebranding, particularly in the high-stakes world of Formula One.

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David’s Role at Mercedes in Formula One

[00:00 – 04:52]

James Reed opens the discussion by highlighting David’s tenure with the Mercedes Formula One team, where he was responsible for corporate branding, personal branding of drivers, sponsor integration, and reputation management. David explains how he translated Mercedes' strong corporate identity into a dynamic sports brand:

David Robertson Mitchell [04:05]: “The team’s brand positioning was aspiring to be the best. So it was a sort of an aspirational thing, which meant that the team was always trying to be the best. Sometimes you weren't, sometimes you were.”

This strategic positioning not only maintained brand consistency but also set realistic expectations within the competitive realm of Formula One, contributing to Mercedes’ success, including eight Constructors Championships during his tenure.

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Branding Challenges and Solutions

[03:40 – 05:45]

James probes into the challenges of adapting Mercedes' established car brand into a Formula One sports brand. David discusses the delicate balance of maintaining brand integrity while making it resonate within a competitive sports environment:

David Robertson Mitchell [04:03]: “From a sporting perspective, we would take the brand and probably use about 95% of it in terms of the brand positioning, the brand values, all of that would be meshed into the team.”

He emphasizes the importance of aligning brand values with team culture to ensure a cohesive and authentic representation both internally and externally.

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Case Study: Personal Branding of Lewis Hamilton

[05:45 – 10:12]

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on personal branding, specifically David’s work with Lewis Hamilton. Initially branded as the “world’s fastest racing driver,” David recognized the need to evolve Lewis's brand as his influence extended beyond Formula One:

David Robertson Mitchell [06:28]: “We decided that the world's fastest racing driver really wasn't strong enough for him. So we created a brand positioning around 'inspires to rise,' taking Lewis's mantra, 'still I rise,' to connect with a wider community.”

This repositioning allowed Lewis Hamilton to engage in philanthropic efforts and social causes, enhancing his personal brand's depth and reach. The discussion also touches on Lewis’s recent move to Ferrari, highlighting the strategic alignment between his personal brand and Ferrari's luxury image.

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Managing Rebranding Efforts: Jaguar Example

[19:35 – 22:44]

James and David examine Jaguar’s recent drastic rebranding efforts, which involved overhauling their traditional brand identity to appeal to a younger, wealthier audience amid shifting market dynamics towards electric vehicles:

David Robertson Mitchell [19:55]: “Jaguar have basically thrown out pretty much all their old brand. Even the leaping Jaguars gone... They expect to have lost 80% of their traditional customer base but are targeting a new audience.”

David acknowledges the boldness of Jaguar's approach, noting that while the rebrand has faced criticism, it may be a necessary step to ensure the brand’s longevity in a rapidly evolving automotive landscape.

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Building a Brand: Xerox Rebranding Story

[25:00 – 26:45]

David recounts his experience with Xerox's rebranding from a photocopier company to a business services powerhouse:

David Robertson Mitchell [25:36]: “I didn't know whether I could say that. I went through this in 2007. Xerox was being repositioned from a photocopier printer company into being a business services company.”

Despite initial constraints—such as not altering the logo—Xerox successfully refreshed its brand by focusing on values like humanity and vibrancy, demonstrating that effective rebranding extends beyond superficial changes.

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Branding vs. Marketing

[32:39 – 36:10]

A pivotal segment differentiates branding from marketing. David defines brand as the desired thought and emotion customers associate with a company, while marketing is the strategic endeavor to source and harvest cash flow:

David Robertson Mitchell [33:03]: “The definition of marketing you should use is that marketing is the sourcing and harvesting of cash flow...”

This distinction underscores the strategic role of marketing in driving business growth, emphasizing that consistent and clear branding forms the foundation upon which effective marketing campaigns are built.

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Personal Branding Tips

[36:10 – 38:41]

David offers actionable advice for individuals seeking to develop their personal brands. He stresses the importance of clarity in how one wants to be perceived and maintaining consistency across all interactions:

David Robertson Mitchell [37:03]: “What else. Once you've worked that out, you then work out how are you going to deliver that...”

He highlights the significance of defining one's brand positioning, behaviors, and messaging to create a cohesive and authentic personal brand, comparable to managing a corporate brand.

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Employer Branding

[43:39 – 46:51]

The discussion shifts to employer branding, where David emphasizes that a strong employer brand is genuine and reflects the internal culture of the organization:

David Robertson Mitchell [45:03]: “You've got to make sure that your internal culture and the way you operate and the way you reward your staff is in line with your brand.”

He advises leveraging various channels like company websites, social media, and employee testimonials to authentically showcase the company's work environment and values, thereby attracting top talent.

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Reputation Management

[46:51 – 49:53]

Reputation, as distinct from brand, is addressed with David explaining that reputation reflects the actual perceptions based on customer and employee experiences:

David Robertson Mitchell [48:37]: “Reputation is a reality. So that's what people are actually thinking about you.”

He advises continuous monitoring through social media listening and addressing customer complaints diligently to sustain a positive reputation.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[53:15 – End]

As the conversation wraps up, James Reed reflects on the insights gained, particularly the evolution of personal branding exemplified by Lewis Hamilton. David shares his motivations and future aspirations, expressing a desire to continue impacting lives through branding before potentially retiring:

David Robertson Mitchell [53:15]: “What gets me up on a Monday morning? I think just the sheer variety of what I do. Working with other people...”

James concludes by encouraging listeners to explore further resources linked in the show notes and to engage with future episodes for more business insights.

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Notable Quotes

• David Robertson Mitchell [04:05]: “The team’s brand positioning was aspiring to be the best. So it was a sort of an aspirational thing, which meant that the team was always trying to be the best. Sometimes you weren't, sometimes you were.”

• David Robertson Mitchell [06:28]: “We decided that the world's fastest racing driver really wasn't strong enough for him. So we created a brand positioning around 'inspires to rise,' taking Lewis's mantra, 'still I rise,' to connect with a wider community.”

• David Robertson Mitchell [19:55]: “Jaguar have basically thrown out pretty much all their old brand. Even the leaping Jaguars gone... They expect to have lost 80% of their traditional customer base but are targeting a new audience.”

• David Robertson Mitchell [33:03]: “The definition of marketing you should use is that marketing is the sourcing and harvesting of cash flow...”

• David Robertson Mitchell [37:03]: “What else. Once you've worked that out, you then work out how are you going to deliver that...”

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Key Takeaways

1. Brand Consistency and Culture Alignment: A strong brand must be consistently represented across all levels of an organization, aligning internal culture with external messaging.

2. Strategic Rebranding: Rebranding efforts should be driven by clear business objectives and thorough research to ensure they address underlying challenges rather than superficial changes.

3. Personal Branding: Individuals, especially leaders, should approach personal branding with the same strategic rigor as corporations, defining clear positioning and maintaining consistency in their public persona.

4. Reputation Management: Proactive monitoring and management of reputation are crucial, as reputation reflects the true perceptions held by customers and stakeholders.

5. Differentiating Branding from Marketing: Understanding the distinction between branding (desired perceptions and emotions) and marketing (strategic activities to drive business growth) is essential for holistic business strategy.

6. Employer Branding: A genuine employer brand that reflects the company’s internal culture is vital for attracting and retaining top talent.

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This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of branding's multifaceted role in business success, illustrated through real-world examples and expert insights from David Robertson Mitchell. Listeners gain valuable strategies for building and maintaining strong brands, managing reputational challenges, and leveraging personal branding to enhance career trajectories.

Transcript

[James Reed]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. Having a consistent brand could increase your revenue by a whopping 20%. But with massive rebrands making headlines for all the wrong reasons, how can you refresh your image without alienating your audience? Today's guest, David Robertson Mitchell, has been branding and rebranding companies for nearly two decades. Nicknamed the brand Rover, he spent nine years working as a brand consultant for the Mercedes Formula One team and now runs his own consultancy firm. Well, today I'm really pleased to welcome David Robertson Mitchell to All About Business. And David, as well as being a neighbour of mine in Wiltshire, is an expert on all things brand. And he has his own brand consultancy that he started, which is called D, DNA Hyphen rb, which David tells me is brand backwards. So I've invited you in today because I think brands branding is super important. I think it can make a massive difference between business success and failure. And I think some people have got it spectacularly right and some people have got it spectacularly wrong. And I want to explore some of these themes with you. And also the word brand is attached to more and more things these days. You have personal brand, you have employer brand, you have digital brand. And so all about brand building is all about business for this conversation. And I want to start, because I know you've got a fascinating history working in an area that so many people are interested in, which is Formula One. And you have worked for the Mercedes team in Formula One for nine years. You've also worked for the McLaren team. And tell me about what you were doing at Mercedes and how you were helping them with their brand.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yes, I started working with Mercedes in 2014. I'd met. Met Toto Wolff, who just bought into Mercedes, and he was looking for somebody who understood corporate branding, personal branding and motorsport. And I'd got in my sort of career history, I'd got all of those aspects. So I started working there in December 2013 and my role covered a variety of different areas. So how do you take Mercedes as a brand, as a car brand, but apply it to a Formula One team? Which is an interesting challenge because the aspects of a car brand, you want to get out the exciting bits of it to Put it onto a Formula one team, which is effectively a sporting team. I then work with the drivers on their individual driver brands. So Nico Rosberg, Lewis Hamilton, George Russell on how we could be really clear and consistent in the way that we talk about them and make sure that they come across clearly to their fans. I worked with all the different sponsors as we brought the sponsors into the team, making sure that their brands meshed seamlessly with the team's brands. And then finally, it was the reputation management. So when things started going wrong, I'd be there in the background, understanding where we wanted the story to be as far as the brand was concerned and working with the comms people and Toto to get the story back onto track again.

[James Reed]

Well, so much in what you just said that I want to ask you about, because some of this feels quite hard to pin down. So Mercedes is a reputable brand. It's been around for a very long time. It's associated with fabulous saloon cars, I would guess. How do you take a brand like that and make it into a sports brand? Let's start with that one.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

So that was an interesting challenge because Mercedes is a very strong brand and it has very clear brand guidelines. But there were areas, when you applied it to a Formula One team that slightly jarred, that didn't quite gel with what you were trying to do. From a sporting perspective, we would take the brand and probably use about 95% of it in terms of the brand positioning, the brand values, all of that would be meshed into the team.

[James Reed]

What jarred? What was the bit that you had at the time?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

It was actually, I can. I'll talk about that in specific. So their positioning was the best. And as a sports team, defining yourself as the best is quite a challenge because sometimes you are the best if you win the race, but other times if you don't win the race, you're not the best. And so you're setting up an expectation. So what we did is we softened it ever so slightly and we put the brand's. The team's brand positioning was aspiring to be the best. So it was a sort of an aspirational thing, which meant that the team was always trying to be the best. Sometimes you weren't, sometimes you were. In the nine years I was with the team, we won eight Constructors Championships, so it was a great time.

[James Reed]

So you put those four words in front of best.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yes.

[James Reed]

Aspiring to be the best.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yeah, Inspiring to be the best. And that just softened it slightly. The rest of the brand model. We were then able to take and apply that to the Formula one team.

[James Reed]

But it's also giving a clear message to everyone in that team what you're about.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

And that, I think, is where brand and culture has a really strong overlap. So when you have a company has a brand, you need to make sure that that flows through to the culture, because the brand is the external promise of what you want people to think about you. But that's got to align with what it's like internally for the people working there. And then that the culture then leads onto the customer experience. So the experience people have of that brand should be driven by the culture. And I think one of the things that people often forget is that brand is something that the whole organization owns. It's not just something the marketing department does. Everybody in the organization, whether they are a customer service rep or a finance person or a salesperson, or even just somebody working in factory or wherever else, will be talking to people outside. They all represent the brand. So it's something that you've got to get the culture, the brand, the culture aligned, and then that aligns with the customer experience.

[James Reed]

That's so true. And you want the whole team to be pulling together in the same direction. I hadn't really thought of brand as being a sort of key driver of that in that way. So, yeah, that's very powerful. I was thinking about Lewis Hamilton. So Lewis Hamilton's just started driving Ferraris. You know, I think of Ferraris, red, cool. It's different brand from Mercedes. The best or aspiring to be the best. You just said that you worked with Lewis Hamilton on his personal brand. Let's start with that. What were you trying to achieve? Well, I mean, Lewis Hamilton is a racing driver. He's a bloody good one. But what beyond that were you trying to say?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

So with Lewis? When he first started working with Mercedes and I got involved, we had a brand positioning for him, which was world's fastest racing driver, and that worked well for him.

[James Reed]

So that landed with me, because that's what I think of him.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yeah, that's right. But come by the end of 2016, he'd had a challenging year. He'd been beaten to the championship by Nico Rosberg. He transcended Formula One. So his audience was way beyond just the Formula one audience. And he was achieving a sort of stature within the sport, which was more than just being a racing driver. So I sat down with him and his management, and we decided that the world's fastest racing driver really wasn't strong enough for him. And it sort of confined him within Formula One. So we went off and we looked at how to take his brand positioning in a different direction. So on the back of his helmet, he has a quote, still I rise, which is from a poem by Maya Angelou, who was a black American poet from the 1950s, and she was talking about the struggle of black people in America. And still we rise. And so he had, still I rise. And we put those two together and created a brand. Positioning around inspires to rise in taking Lewis's sort of mantra, still I rise to other people. And you can see that extending that to a wider community, Much, much wider community. And you can see now in, you know, today, he's still using that as his inspiration. You know, he's doing an awful lot of work with minorities in Formula One, bringing people through from education right into the sport. Watched a couple of years ago, he was. He went to the Met Gala in New York and he. Normally, as a superstar, you go with a fashion house, but he went to the Met Gala and said, I'd like to buy a table. And they went, okay. And he turned up with a handful of young black designers from America who would never have had a chance to get to the Met Gala wearing one of their outfits. And he was on. I saw him on the BBC news. He was on the front page of every newspaper. And he was, you know, that inspiring to Rise was, you know, spreading his goodness to other people. So that was his brand positioning. He's still using that today.

[James Reed]

So he was able to take his personal branding, which you helped develop, from one manufacturer to another. So he's now driving the red Ferrari. I mean, I heard him on the radio. I think he was saying he was having a bit of trouble getting his head around that.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Which I thought was interesting because, I mean, for me, it's like I'd be, you know, if you cut me in half, it would say, Reid, you know, I couldn't imagine going to work for another recruitment company.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

So I think.

[James Reed]

So how do you deal with that? If you were advising him now, what would you be saying about this transition?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

I think it's an amazing transition. I mean, first of all, Ferrari is an iconic brand, both as a car brand and a motorsport brand. And pretty much every rating driver in the world would want to drive for Ferrari at some stage in their career.

[James Reed]

How did Ferrari achieve that?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Years in the making that, you know, it's Italian, so it's got that passion. They own the color red. You've got all the history and the heritage and the mythology of Enzo Ferrari and they've managed to create a very high profile luxury brand. It's a very niche brand in terms of people who can afford it, but it's got mass appeal, so it's.

[James Reed]

And everyone can get a cap with it.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yeah, we can get a cap and we can, we can dream that they're going to win the next championship, but.

[James Reed]

They don't, do they?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

That's a different, that's a completely different story.

[James Reed]

Ferrari. I mean, that's sort of yesterday's news on it, but go on. So, so Lewis has gone there and he's going to have to lift this.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

He's probably already lifted it. He's probably lifted their share price quite a lot because he's, you know, he is a superstar and wherever he goes, eyeballs will follow him. And I think the alignment of his brand, you know, he's a high profile superstar brand with the high profile luxury brand of Ferrari. It's a match made in heaven. Much more so perhaps than Lewis and Mercedes was. And I think, you know, good on him. He's, you know, he'll be there for two or three years, maybe four years. You know, he might win a championship, he might not. But that iconic vision of Lewis dressed in red, racing for Ferrari will be on people's minds.

[James Reed]

He'll be on the podium at some point, won't he?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

But he was. He won the sprint race this last.

[James Reed]

Weekend, but then he was disqualified from the.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yes, the main grand. That was unfortunate.

[James Reed]

It was, it was unfortunate. But I think, you know, you can see him now on the podium and he might, as you say, win the champion, be a fantastic new chapter. So in a sense he's reinvented himself. Yes, by making this move. And it's good for both brands that they've come together and coalesced in that way. We're delighted that you're listening to this episode. Hit the follow button so that we can continue to bring you the best business insight and actionable advice to help your business and or career. So you also said that you did sort of communications around when the proverbial hits the fan and you have to manage situations which are tricky. How does that work?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

When things happen in Formula one and the story starts spinning out of control, it happens very quickly. It normally happens during a race, so.

[James Reed]

Someone hits someone else or something.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

And back when I started working with Mercedes, I would be the eyes and ears sitting at home watching the commentary, watching the social media, I mean, the eyes and ears for the comms director who was in the thick of it. At the track.

[James Reed]

So you had a sort of hotline to the concert. So you were on watching the telly like everyone else.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

And.

[James Reed]

And you can't tell what's going on when you're at the track, really, because they're going around out of sight.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

I think you have a fairly good idea, but you don't have that context of being away from the thick of it and, you know, seeing what's, you know, getting a sense of what.

[James Reed]

So talk me through a scenario that you had to do.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

I mean, there was a couple of times when back in 2014, when Lewis and Nico collided with each other on track.

[James Reed]

Yeah, I remember that.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

And you know, that got very tense and you know, so we would be.

[James Reed]

Interesting rivalry there was.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

But, you know, when you've got two top drivers in a team, you know they want to win. Yeah. So, you know, we'd be chatting behind the scenes. How do we respond? And then 10 minutes later, Toto would stand up and talk to the world. Now, as a brand person, that level of influence in terms of getting the message back onto where you want it to be from a brand perspective is amazing. Brands normally use, it move at glacial speeds. In sport, you know, you can be go from hero to zero almost immediately. So having that sort of level of influence and ability to guide the story behind the scenes was amazing.

[James Reed]

So looking beyond Formula one into sports more widely, who do you think? I mean, this might be an unfair question to ask you, but who do you think is doing a good job brand wise at the moment in a wider sport?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

There's one obvious one that I think is doing a good job from a brand perspective is Wrexham football club. So you've got the two American film stars who've bought into into the club and it was a nothing sort of lower division club. And suddenly it's got a global audience, it's got a clear brand positioning, it's getting lots of revenue and they're gradually rising up through the ranks.

[James Reed]

So why did they do that? Who thought that was a good idea? I mean, if you're sitting in California, I mean, heading to Wrexham to buy a football club is not obvious.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

It's not. But I think, where did that come from? They. They did a lot of research to find the right football club. And I think you're looking for, why.

[James Reed]

Don'T they pick Swindon, our local too?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

I wish they would.

[James Reed]

That would have been good.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

I wish they need some more Hollywood.

[James Reed]

Stars to come to Swindon.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

There's a club which. Which Swindon is a club which, I mean, I was born in Swindon, so it should be the club I support. But it's. Yeah, it's a.

[James Reed]

It's a tough time.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

It's a tough time and it's gone from owner to owner who never quite get it right. So there's an opportunity.

[James Reed]

Yeah, there's lots of opportunities everywhere on the branding front. I'm beginning to think so. And then you also did the personal brand for Toto, you said.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yes.

[James Reed]

So talk me through that. Tell us a little bit about him and what your role was. They're all quite different, these sort of tasks you've got.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

So. So Toto was an interesting one. He's very clear in terms of what his brand is. Anyway.

[James Reed]

Tell us who he is for people who don't know.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

So Toto Wolff is the team principal and CEO of Mercedes Formula one team. And he's Austrian and he bought into the team in 2013 and a third owner of it with Mercedes and a couple of other people. And he's. But he's very clear on what his brand is. So there wasn't an awful lot we needed to do with him in terms of clear in what way. He knows who he is. He's, you know, he's.

[James Reed]

He's got a good name, he's got.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

A great brand, doesn't it? And, you know, if you can be known by one name in your life, that's. That's even better than having two names. So he's. And he comes across very well in. In the media, comes across very well on tv. It's a really nice chap to work for.

[James Reed]

So that's an ambition for people listening, to be known by one name in your life.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

I think you can.

[James Reed]

Yeah, I'm just thinking of a few people. There are not many. Quite a few played for Brazil.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

One of was Prime Minister in this local. You've got Toto there. But yeah, it's interesting.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

So if you can get to one name, it certainly helps.

[James Reed]

Was he born Toto? I mean, was he given that name? Did he name it? Did he create, I mean, Elton John or something?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

It was a different name and I.

[James Reed]

So he made that name. So you can create your own name out there, you know, you can do. If you're into personal branding. Well, I think that's worth thinking about, I think, for the ambitious. So that's really interesting. It's given us a good sort of overview, David, of what you do and what you think about rebranding. This is a minefield and it's something that companies do periodically and I know ourselves, we're on our fourth or fifth iteration of our brand since the 1960s. We haven't ever changed it very radically, but it's sort of evolved. But some people do things a lot more dramatic. And as we're in the car space, Jaguar, I mean, that's the one that has really hit the headlines. I mean, what's going on there? I mean, how do I upset and lose a lot of customers? What are they trying to do? I mean, explain what's happened there and what you think they're trying to do.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

With brand and branding, they are words that get thrown at all sorts of things and used interchangeably along with marketing. So brand branding and marketing, you know, you see them used in lots of different ways, and no one's ever really sure what they mean. And I'm quite keen, when I talk to my clients, to define that in a really simple way to start with. So brand is the thought you want customers to have about you or your company. So it's a thought in their head. And ideally, it's more than a thought. It's a thought and an emotion, because an emotion creates that feeling of connection and it spurs action. So it's a desired positioning. You want to try and get people to think in a certain way.

[James Reed]

So if anyone's watching, we've got Love Mondays, which is our brand message. So we want people to think they can find a job that they'll love, but that's.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

You want that thought and emotion in somebody's head, you can't force them to have it, but you can shift the odds in your favor that they will think that way if you. If you're very consistent in the way you deliver your branding. Now, branding is everything you do to get people thinking that way. So as an example, if you went to a party and you walked into a party and said, hello, I'm James, I'm funny, people would look at you slightly strangely, but if you went to a party, you told jokes, everybody enjoys themselves. When you leave, they go, that's James. He's a funny guy. So the branding, there was the jokes, the, you know, being, being, you know, an enjoyable person to be with. So branding is made up of all sorts of things. It's the values of your organization that you stand for. It's the behaviors that come out of that, the behaviors in the culture of the organization. It's the tone of voice in which you communicate. It's the identity that you have as an organization. And part of the identity is the logo. And then it's the messaging that you use thereafter. So there's lots of different elements to branding. All of that is what you're doing with total clarity and ruthless consistency to try and shift people's perception to the direction you want them to have.

[James Reed]

If you know what you're doing, you're doing it with total clarity and ruthless consistency. If you don't know what you're doing, I can imagine it's quite easy to be all over the shop.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

You can be all over the shop and you end up looking unfocused, which is why you need somebody like me to come in and help you.

[James Reed]

Then that's what you do.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

You inject clarity and clarity and then. And then consistency. Yes.

[James Reed]

Building a brand is a long task.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

It's something that doesn't happen overnight. So it takes a long time to build it. It can be very quick to destroy it. So it takes a long time. It takes a lot of hard work, it takes a lot of effort, it takes a lot of money to build a brand. But once you've got that and you can be totally clear and ruthlessly consistent about it, then you. You start to shift the odds in your favor that people think about you in the way you'd like them to think.

[James Reed]

But it's an interesting combination of what you said of thinking and feeling.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yes.

[James Reed]

So when you see brands they have, they should evoke both.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

They. Well, they do. And I think I do an exercise when I do brand training and I get the audience to tell me, think of a brand they love, and I want them to tell me how it makes them feel.

[James Reed]

So what brands do you get coming?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

All sorts of, you know, you get food brands and drink brands and travel brands and things that make people feel, you know, nice and warm. And then a few minutes later, I'll say, right, I want you to think about a brand that you don't like or you even hate. And when you do that, you often get the same brands coming up, the same ones, but the feelings, the feelings are really negative. So you. Then you contrast the feeling in the room between the lovely, warm feeling you had with the brands you love and the feeling, you know with the brands you hate. And then the next question is, why do they make you feel like that? What is it that makes you feel negative about. About those brands? And it's pretty much always personal. It's something that company has done. So they've been disrespectful or they failed to do what they said they were going to do. It was a customer experience thing. So Advertising can build nice warm brands, but customer experience can destroy brands. And that's where you, if you don't have that connection between your brand, your culture and your customer experience all lined up and working perfectly, then as hard as you work to build a brand at the other end, you can be destroying it very easily.

[James Reed]

So that's where the consistency comes.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

That's where consistency comes in. Yeah.

[James Reed]

So back to Jaguar, Jackie. I mean, they haven't been that consistent in their branding or they've suddenly changed. So describe for people who might not have seen it. We'll try and put some pictures of the new Jaguar ads in the video for YouTubers, but try and tell us what Jaguar have done.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

So, so Jaguar have, have basically thrown out pretty much all their, their old brand. Their old brand.

[James Reed]

Even the Leaping Jaguars.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Even the Leaping Jaguars gone. And they've come up with a typeface Jaguar. There's lots of bright colors that the car model that they showed is, is very bold. And basically what they've announced is that they, they've looked at their marketplace. They realized that they, the, the switch towards electric vehicles, the competition from China, you know, their, their traditional market is rapidly going away. Their traditional customer base is rapidly dying off. And they have a choice. They either try and play around the edges but gradually decline or do something drastic. And they've gone for the drastic. And they've publicly stated that when they launch their new cars, in probably two years time with all the new brand around it and everything else, they expect to have lost 80% of their traditional customer base. But they're going after a completely new audience of young, wealthy, aspirational customers which are very different to the customer base that they've had previously, which were, you know, seen as well. I would look at that Jaguars, I would always thought as the sort of car my dad would drive. I never saw it as a car that I would drive.

[James Reed]

I think my dad did drive one. The gin and Jag belt used to be known, wasn't it? People in blazers would drive around in Jackie would and go to drinks parties.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

And although I'm of an age where perhaps I would be a Jaguar driver, even that thought now, you know, it's my dad's generation.

[James Reed]

So you think they're on to. Because it was widely mocked, it was this rebrand. But you think they're onto something.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

I think they, they are following a route that is the only, probably the only sensible choice they've got. And it's, it, because it's so drastic, people have, you know, who aren't who aren't brand savvy are going, oh, it's, it's, they're throwing it all away and it's all terrible. I would love to see them succeed because it would be great. This is a great British brand. I'd love to see it continue. And they've got a huge task on their hands, but if they execute it correctly, it could be good.

[James Reed]

Yeah. And they've got everyone talking about it, which is a big thing. I mean, just getting noticed in this world is hard enough. I'm with you. I hope they succeed too. I think it's good to try things, but it's a pretty bold bet.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

It's a bold bet, but the alternative, I think is a slow, painful decline.

[James Reed]

Yeah. Our company's called Reid. I mean, we're not very imaginative. My dad just stuck his name above the door. But I suppose, fortunately for us, it's a four letter word. And that's quite good for branding, as it turns out, because it's simple and people can remember it. But if you're, if you're called into consult with a business that's saying, well, we think our brand is out of date or isn't helping us shift more product or feels tired, where do you begin?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

I think I begin by looking at all the business fundamentals. So what's really going on? Why are you starting to think that your brand is tired or out of focus or out of date? And there could be all sorts of reasons. It could be that you've got a shiny new competitor in the marketplace who's making you look dull. It could be that the marketplace itself is changing. It could be that your audience no longer want what you're doing. Or it could be you're just at the end of a brand cycle. Brands all have a cycle. They start, they build, they grow, then over time, familiarity comes in and they start to decline and you need to have a refresh. So there could be all sorts of different business reasons why you'd need to rebrand, but being really.

[James Reed]

But you need to try and identify what the main one is before you start advising, before you start fiddling with it.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Because I think if you start changing the brand and not understand why you're doing it, that's one of the big reasons why rebrands fail.

[James Reed]

And once you embark on it, what do you need to make sure you get right?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

I think you need to make sure that you, once you've understood what the business problem is, that you're going down a process that is going to lead you to the right answer. So, first of all, you've got to go and do your research. You've got to go and talk to lots of people. You've got to look at the marketplace. You've got to look at, you know, you've got to talk to customers, you've got to talk to employees. The leaders of the organization, Even suppliers to the organization will give you really valuable information about what's really going on and then start to work out how you're going to respond. So I went through this in 2007. I was hired by Xerox to be their head of brand and marketing for Europe. And at the time, they were going through a major rebrand. And what was driving that rebrand was a move away from being a photocopier printer company into being a business services company. So really repositioning the company from a business perspective. And at the time, the CEO of the company and Mukahi said to the guys leading the rebrand, I want you to do four things when you do this rebrand. One, I want you to do it globally. Two, I want you to do it quickly. Three, I want you to do it cheaply. And four, you're not allowed to touch the logo.

[James Reed]

Didn't want much then.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

No. What did you do? That's right. Fast, global, cheap, and no, no touching the logo.

[James Reed]

Right.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

And sounds like a level of reasonableness.

[James Reed]

So then what happened?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Well, and that I thought was very smart because normally people go, oh, we need to rebrand. Let's fiddle with the logo. And as I said already, the logo is just one part of the brand identity, which is just one part of branding. But, you know, you get somebody coming into an organization and says, we need to. We need to revitalize the business. Let's change the logo. And that's where you've seen a lot of brand projects fail in the past because it's just been. It's just been sort of gilding the. The brand smelly thing rather than polishing the turds. I didn't know whether I could say that.

[James Reed]

I know he said it quite openly about advertising. So sounds like the.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

So the Xerox brand changed, did all the research, and the research came back. Xerox is gray. It's not. It's. It's sort of very corporate. It's, you know, not got any excitement to it. And going to business services, you need to have, you know, need to be much more human. So they. They started to reposition the company and the brand values and the. And the positioning around being Much more human and colorful and vibrant. But as we went down the route of that, looking at the logo, the old bold red capital letter Xerox logo started to feel like a barrier to where we were going. And so the guy in charge of this project, Richard, went to the CEO and said to her, you know, this is, this is the problem. The logo feels like it's a barrier. She said, we'll change it. He said, but you said number four was don't change the logo. She said, no, if you have to change the logo, you're changing it for the right reasons. And I thought that was absolutely genius on her part. You know, it was, it. It was clear that she really understood that the brand was much more than just the logo. So the logo changed and the. And the, the whole brand went out and refreshed the feel of the business.

[James Reed]

So that's a good way of handling it. We've talked about big brands, Mercedes, Ferraris, Xerox. Frankie, my producer, has a brand called Flamingo. And she was telling me that when she spoke to you before, you gave her a little bit of advice, can you remember what it was?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yes. So she. I asked why it was called Flamingo, and it was all to do with her grandmother and flamingos. And she'll be able to tell the story much better.

[James Reed]

I think her grandmother gave her flamingos a lot.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

That's right.

[James Reed]

So, but what did you suggest?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

So, but what I said was, if you got that story, that backstory, then tell it. Find a way of bringing that out because it makes your. Your brand and you feel much more human. And so when I arrived today, she said to me, she's put that on her website. So that, that was great.

[James Reed]

That was maybe a free consultancy, which is good, man. She told me that. But I think it's interesting for people starting out, which. Why I ask you. Because if you're trying to establish a brand or create a brand for your business, you know, being human is clearly important. So what else. What other advice do you give people who are starting up? You know, you've got to pick a name. And we had a young woman in here the other day who started a business called Good Squish. And it's a great business that makes hair accessories. And. And she's doing really well. And she said it just sort of came to her, you know, then it was a eureka moment. She knew that was it. But I don't know that if that's an experience shared by many or everyone, maybe it's not so obvious.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

I think I Mean the name. The name isn't so important. If it's a cool name or a funky name, then great. But it's the meaning you build into the name, which is key. And you know, you look at one of the biggest companies in the world, Apple, you know, it's just a piece of fruit. But the meaning that Steve Jobs built into that brand over the, over the years is immense. And now when you think of Apple, you don't think of it as fruit. You're thinking it as computer hardware and phones and all the rest of it. So the meaning is more important than the actual name. If it's a funky name or a simple name, then that's, that's all really good. But I think when you're so.

[James Reed]

Okay, so when you start. So what do you mean by meaning? You know, so if you're starting off an accessories business.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

What's the meaning you should be searching?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Well, it's. The meaning is whatever you want. You want your, that one thought and one emotion that you want your audience to think about you, the conclusion that they have about you. That's when I talk about meaning. That's that sort of brand meaning. Meaning that I'm trying to get to. Because if you can be really clear with your audience, you're also being really clear with your, with, with the people within your organization. I did a work, some work over the pandemic with a technology company. It was a sort of a technology wearables company. And they brought me in and they had a, they had a brand name. And they said, we'd like you to, you know, we want to sort of create a brand model around it. And I spoke to the C. I said, what's it mean? He sort of explained what it was all about. So the part of the research I did was to go and talk to everybody who was involved in it, you know, most of the employees, some of his investors. And the presentation back to this big group at the end of the project was, this is a product that can do everything for everyone if I listen to what you're saying, because everybody had a different idea of what it was about and how it's positioned and what it stood for and what the values were. So when you're starting out with a new product, make sure that you've got that total clarity and make sure that the people working on it understand that and make sure that as you're building.

[James Reed]

Who the product is for, who the.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Product is for, what it stands for, what it does, the problem it solves, plus you Know, as a business, what are the values that you want to represent and, you know, how you're going to communicate and what style you're going to communicate all of these things. Because when you've got a small organization, quite often, you know, people are just making assumptions because you, if you haven't done that piece of thinking, then you're just allowing people to assume what it is. And the chances are that everybody's assuming something slightly different and it just means that what you're.

[James Reed]

That was the case in that example.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Absolutely.

[James Reed]

So how did you, how did you sort that out?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

By, by gradually iterating. So you start off with, so this is where I think it should be. And then you, you iterate, you, you work with the lead, you know, the owner of the business, the marketing people in the business, and you iterate into something that everybody feels is really comfortable. And then.

[James Reed]

Did you get there?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yeah, we did. Yeah. And then you lock it in.

[James Reed]

How long did that take?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

It doesn't take long. I mean, you know, it's a, it's a. The research took probably a couple of weeks and, and the iteration, two or three weeks to sort of, you know, get everybody around the table. But once you've done that, you've got that clarity.

[James Reed]

What I've observed in our business and elsewhere with advertising and obviously closely associated with brands, is people inside the business get tired of campaigns long before people outside even notice. They've probably come on air and they make, you know, that they lose consistency by trying to do new things when actually it might be better to just consistently deliver the same message or similar. And is that something you've come across in the brand space or is it people like tinkering? I mean, everyone has opinions.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

And that, you know, they're not necessarily of equal merit.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

I think you come across it sometimes with people deciding that they, particularly from a brand design perspective, they can go, oh, you know, well, I'll use that color there. Or, you know, you've got your little heart shape on your Mondays. Yeah. I'm going to do a presentation where all the zeros are little hearts. And suddenly, you know, this, this thing, which is meant to be very specific, it sort of leaks out into other areas because everybody thinks they're a creative director.

[James Reed]

You end up with a mess.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

But I think I've certainly seen it on the marketing side where there's a sort of a boredom threshold with marketing people that, that, you know, they get, they, they want this year's campaign or that, you know, this, this quarter's campaign.

[James Reed]

And you have to just say, sorry, we're going to carry on.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

But that I think is, you know, when we talked about the difference in brand and branding, marketing is, is another area where depending on who you talk to in that, in that, in that industry, you will get their perspective on how the, how the marketing works.

[James Reed]

So what's the difference between branding and marketing then, in your view?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

So brand, brand is that is, is how you get that thought. Marketing. The best description of marketing I've ever come across was from the London Business School, a gentleman called Tim Ambler, who used to be in charge of marketing for Diageo, and he did a lecture on how to talk about branding to, about marketing to finance directors. And he said that.

[James Reed]

Go on.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

The definition of marketing you should use is that marketing is the sourcing and harvesting of cash flow. And marketers should know who's got the money out there, who's got the need, come up with products and prices and promotions and positioning and techniques.

[James Reed]

Sourcing and management of cash flow, harvesting and harvest.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

So come up with creative ways.

[James Reed]

Sourcing and harvesting of cash flow.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Harvest. Harvest that cash out in the marketplace from, from the audience.

[James Reed]

It's there you want to bring it.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

In and then deliver it to the finance directors as cash flow. Now, to me, when you go and talk to a marketing person, you'll, you'll get their particular lens on their particular discipline within marketing. Yes, you'll get their. Of metrics, which means nothing but often to the business itself. But if you start to look at marketing as a sourcing and harvesting of cash flow, you're linking the effectiveness of marketing directly to something that matters really, really important to the business.

[James Reed]

But that's quite hard to then link to putting a Guinness ad on the telly, isn't it? I suppose. How did the finance director swallow this?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Well, I think, I think, you know, as long as you can start to demonstrate, you know, the overall mix, you know, people are buying it and you're increasing your sales, then it links back to cash flow. But it does show that, you know, and I use this with various finance directors when I was in marketing roles. And you know, first of all, you explain it and this sort of an, ah, no one's ever explained marketing to me like that before.

[James Reed]

Well, I haven't heard that explained like that before. I think it's really interesting. So the sourcing and harvesting of cash. But also what it does, I'm thinking, is it gets the marketing people thinking much more strategically about what they're there for. They're not there to make a pretty ad with pink and a lover on it. They're there to think about the business. How are we going to grow this business, reach more customers and be super relevant?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

And most finance directors will look at marketing as a cost center. And so the, you could then have the debate that says, well, if you'd like, like me to do more sourcing and more harvesting, that's great, you'll get more cash flow. But if you reduce the amount of sourcing and harvesting I can do because you cut my budgets, then you have to accept that you're going to get less cash flow. And it, it became a very interesting debate then.

[James Reed]

Yes. I mean, you have to demonstrate that you're good at sourcing and otherwise you.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Might not, but it does, as you absolutely said, it forces you as a marketer to think about the business rather than just your own little discipline of marketing. And then that gets you away from wanting to do a new campaign every quarter.

[James Reed]

So you're sourcing and harvesting cash flow. And at the same time, I mean, does branding change a lot? I mean, you've got your brand, that sort of branding bit that sits between.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

That, I think is the thread that runs through everything. And once you've got your brand, don't change it. You can keep it fresh and vibrant by doing different marketing and using different messaging relevant to the time of year or the product or whatever else. But that ruthless consistency of delivery of brand is how big brands built. So you can go anywhere in the world into a McDonald's store and you know pretty much what you're going to see, you know pretty much what it's going to taste like, you know pretty much how, how it's going to operate. And that's ruthless consistency in action.

[James Reed]

Yeah, yeah. So interesting. So moving on from sort of big brands and products and services like McDonald's to personal brand, I mean, with the development of social media and sort of digital marketing, personal branding, in my impression, has really become much more important for sort of business leaders. I mean, all sorts of people actually sort of involved now. Influencers. What should someone be thinking about if they want to develop a personal brand?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

I think they need to go through the same piece of thinking that any brand goes through. So any corporate brand, when they, when they come up with that brand positioning and those, the branding activities that they do, it's the same whether it's a.

[James Reed]

Business individual, what's the top five things you do as a business?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

So I think the first thing to do is how do you want to be Perceived. What is that thought that you want to leave behind? What's the conclusion that you want people to have about, about you?

[James Reed]

And so what do you want people to be saying about you after?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Absolutely, yeah. And what else, once you've worked that out, you then work out how are you going to deliver that? What are you going to do through a, you know, a meeting with somebody or a presentation that you're giving or when you're doing your social media, what are the things you're going to be doing that give you that ruthless consistency in the way you express yourself? Whether it's the values you stand for, the behaviors you exhibit, the, the, the way in which you talk, the identity that you have, the, you know, even the name that you use. And the messaging, what are, what's, what are the key sort of messages that you're repeating time after time? One of the, I think one of the things that, you know, if we want to bring in Donald Trump at the moment and he's a very, very strong personal brand.

[James Reed]

Yeah, we have difficulty bringing him because then we can't market. Podcast on YouTube we mentioned Donald Trump, but go on. But, yeah, go on.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

So he's very good at catchphrases. You know, his messaging is, is very, you know, you know, whether you love him or hate him, he is at the catchphrases.

[James Reed]

Part of a personal brand is having a catchphrase or two. Well, he invented your fight. I mean, he was the Apprentice original, wasn't he? Yeah. So he's taken it from there onwards. So catchphrases, do you think he comes up with them himself or do you think other people are doing it for him?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Got no idea. Maybe there's someone like me sitting behind him.

[James Reed]

I wonder. Yeah, I think he probably comes up with them himself would be my guess. You're saying very much of what I'm hearing is that if you want to develop a personal brand, you approach yourself like me, PLC as if you're a business and you know, you think about how you want to be remembered, what sort of impact you want to make and what name you want to give yourself. Almost to that extent, absolutely.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

And I think if you're, you know, a high profile individual or really anybody in, in, you know, somebody even starting out in work, having a clear understanding of how you want to be perceived can be really helpful. And it just requires a bit of thinking to do it and then a bit of discipline to deliver that consistency. I think there's one exception to this rule, and that's CEOs and CEOs are really interesting because they have a personal brand and they've probably got to their position as a CEO through being a personality and being very good at what they do. But they also have to be the public face of an organization, so therefore have to represent the brand to the outside world. They also have to be the role model internally to employees for the culture. And so if you imagine the old school Venn diagram, they've got their own personality, they've got the corporate brand, they've got the internal corporate culture. Somewhere in the middle of all of that is the CEO brand.

[James Reed]

I said sort of distinct from all three.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Absolutely. So, and, and okay, so this is, this is where you have to, you know, you quite often, when you sit, when I work with CEOs, you know, you start off by understanding what their, their CEO brand is. And then you look at the cor and you're looking at where's that overlap? What are the values that you can put into their brand, their CEO brand, that make them distinctive? What's their personality? What are the strongest elements that make their personality stand out? And what are the elements from the corporate brand which you can put into their CEO brand which mean that they're looking genuine as the CEO of that company?

[James Reed]

They end up with a sort of one pager saying, this is my CEO brand. What would typically be on that? And it's like it'll be on my one pager.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

David, you're another, perhaps another exception we should come to in a minute because, you know, but yeah, you're a founder. You're a founder CEO. It's such a family CEO family and.

[James Reed]

Some founder of some things.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

So we'll talk about that in a minute. But with a CEO, I mean, you're looking at the, maybe the brand values of the organization and taking maybe two or three of those which work and then combining those with, with the two or three, maybe from the personal brand. But that is, it's like a uniform that the CEO wears for the duration of their, their tenure. And where you see CEOs going wrong, I think quite often is that they come in and ego takes over and they start to believe that their brand is more important than the corporate brand. And when you start to get that divergence, there's a tension there and eventually something will break.

[James Reed]

Usually the CEO.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yeah. One of the things I always say to CEOs is the corporate brand has a lot longer shelf life than the CEO brand brand. But whilst you're there, you have to be that face of the, the the.

[James Reed]

You kind of want to leverage the.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Corporate brand and it makes you look much more genuine if you are very closely aligned with that. Family brands and, and founder brands are fascinating because they are, you know, the values of the organization tend to be the values of the individual. So I mean that's true. Three examples, all James's. You've got James Dyson. You know, you look at the Dyson brand, that's very much James, his own personal brand. Sir Jim Ratcliffe at ineos. You know the way INEOS operates and it's, it's culture and its brand is, is just Sir Jim Ratcliffe. And then you've got Reed. And I'm sure that if I talk to the people at Reed they'd be.

[James Reed]

Going, well, I'm also thinking another James, James Timpson.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yes.

[James Reed]

I don't know about that. Yeah, they've all got different surnames fortunately, otherwise it'd be very confusing. But I think, yeah, there's, I suppose there's a. I would say our brand is very closely associated with our family values which, and they go back to the original founder, Alec Reid and we've carried them forward and all the new things we've started since they sort of also pervade that I hope. But I would also hope that it's evolving. You know, it's not a, it's not fixed in 1960.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

No. And I think that's. You can move with the times but you don't need to change it, it every five minutes. I think is the key with brands.

[James Reed]

Those individuals you name are sort of notable entrepreneurs. I mean sometimes they say or do things that are controversial. How does that affect the corporate brand?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Well, I think it's a really good example going on in the world.

[James Reed]

Well, Elon Musk.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

People having to put stickers on their Teslas saying I bought this before Elon.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Went nuts and things like that and, and that, that's, you know, I think what we're watching is a Gerald Ratner in, in, you know, in, on a massive scale, on a global scale. You know, here's somebody who as the CEO of a company is, is doing things which people just don't understand and the, the knock on effect, the knock on impact of the reputation of his company. You know, in sales in Germany they say are 85 down. That's, that's drastic and that's terminal.

[James Reed]

Well, it is drastic. It'd be interesting to see what happens. I mean Starlink's still doing pretty well and apparently X is now back up in value So I don't know what. He's playing many games.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

He's playing many games. But you know, the, the, the, the car company is X you can get away with using without anybody really noticing. Starlink is so far removed from what we're doing, you know, on a day to day basis. But if you're driving a Tesla, you're starting to see it get. Getting vandalized or you take it to parties because people will see you arriving in it. That's really.

[James Reed]

I've got a lovely friend who, who's very right on and very cares about the environment. He's got big white Tesla. I do feel for a. Driving it around, so. But yeah, so that's interesting, isn't it? So the, so those sort of brands are vulnerable to sort of some, I don't know whether sabotage is the right word, but sort of volatility of the, the founder or the CEO or the leader. Yeah, the volatility of those people can have a big a, a big impact on the brand. The Ratner moment. We've talked about rebranding, we've talked about building a personal brand. The other. I don't know if you've got expertise in this really, but the other area I'm very interested in is the employer brand. You know, is this a good company to come and work for or be part of? And what sort of things should people be thinking about in terms of employer brand in your view?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Well, I think first of all is you want to have a strong employer brand. It's not something you can fake, so it's not something you can build. If the reality is different, then you'll get found out. There's, there's, you know, various online sources that you.

[James Reed]

Oh yeah, there's a TripAdvisors for.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yeah, TripAdvisors for working somewhere. The glass ceiling or something like that.

[James Reed]

That is glass door.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Glass door, that's right, glass door that, you know, you can go and see what real employees say. So if, if you are trying to, you know, gild the turd, so to speak, of what it's like to work somewhere, you've got to make sure that.

[James Reed]

First of all that's true of everything in this world now.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Absolutely.

[James Reed]

Sort of everything's become very sad.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

You've got to make sure that your internal culture and the way you operate and the way you reward your staff is, is in line with your brand. And if you're making that promise outside to customers, you need to make sure that you're also making that same sort of promise. Insight to your employees. If you can do that, then, you know, you have the basis for a really strong employer brand. Then it's a question of working out what are the stories, what are the messaging that you want to pull out that you can tell which are really genuine, which encourage people to come and work for you.

[James Reed]

And you would do that through what sort of channel? Social media, mainly, is it.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Well, you have lots of routes. You have your own website which can tell the stories. You have your social media. I'm sure you have, you know, sort of open days where, you know, you have graduate intake and whatever else that people can come in and see what it's like. So, you know, and it's even as far as people going down the pub with their friends and saying, well, I work for Reed, and this is what it's like, you know, that it's wherever people touch the organization, you know, the experience is right. You know, and they're talking to employees and the employees are giving off a good vibe and saying, yeah, actually, I really enjoy working here. And, you know, if they are genuinely loving Mondays, then, yeah, then you've got a strong employer brand.

[James Reed]

So maybe lots of companies out there, you know, delivering that to their teams and colleagues, but aren't talking about it enough, perhaps, to attract others.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Well, but then a player brand becomes marketing for. For employment effectively, doesn't it? Yeah, it's, you know, how do you take that messaging and. And market it to potential employees so.

[James Reed]

You become a destination employer. Yeah, I suppose so. People think, I'd really love to work at Reed, or love to go and work. Yeah, Ferrari or whatever.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

But it's interesting for Reid because you're representing.

[James Reed]

Well, we're representing a lot of employers. Well, we. We recruit for a lot of employers. Some of them would be household names and some of whom people wouldn't have heard of. And so the. I think, especially when you're a smaller business, it's creating that sort of feeling in your catchment area. I think it's really quite important. So it makes such a difference getting the best people.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

And, you know, one form of media for them is their. Is their recruitment agent. So how Reid tells that story about what it's like to work there and your understanding of that organ.

[James Reed]

Sure. I mean, if someone comes and registers with us and says they're looking for a job as an accountant, we'll say, well, here are the five companies hiring. This one gets a very good press from people who work there. Go there first.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

And that's. That's where I think the other Thing we've not talked about yet is reputation comes in. And reputation is fascinating because if brand is your desired state, is what you'd like people to think about you. Reputation is a reality. So that's what people are actually thinking about you. And it's based on how well you're representing your brand to them. So how well you're getting into their heads combined with. With their experience of you and, and the reality of dealing with. With. With your organization, and that's reputation. And reputation, whether it's as a corporate level or an individual level, has a life of its own. It. It lives beyond any control that you might have over it.

[James Reed]

Well, people might be thinking, talking in very different ways as well. Some people might think this organization's got a good reputation, others the opposite.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

What do you do about that? I mean, is this something we, you know, companies should be sort of paying attention to? I mean, we do social media listening.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Listening, yeah.

[James Reed]

Which I find quite interesting. Every Monday I get the report and you see all the comments that people have made on LinkedIn, Facebook, some negative, some positive. You know, what people have put on Trust Pilot. It tells you a lot, actually.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

It does. I think it, you know, social media listening is very important. Looking at what complaints you're getting, you know, if you're logging complaints from customers and looking at those in detail and understanding what caused them, you know, that that experience is part of what's driving your reputation. And at a personal level, if you are going for a job, I often say to people, if you've got a really strong brand and you've done a really good job, by the time you get to the interview, your reputation is already interviewed. You know, you're.

[James Reed]

You've got a really strong band. As a person.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yeah. As an individual, if you, you know.

[James Reed]

And you're saying about you before you get.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Yeah, yeah. And your reputation will have had an interview before you even arrive in person.

[James Reed]

Guardiola.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

That's right.

[James Reed]

They're going to want to hire you then.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

But likewise, if you've got a, if you, if you've got a, you know, an inconsistent brand or, you know, people have got a bad experience of you, then your reputation's already been in there. You might not even get to the interview.

[James Reed]

But is that a reasonable level of expectation to put on someone? I mean, you know, I'm thinking of younger people coming into the workplace. How do they, how do they achieve that? Because it would be great if they could.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

I think it's something that they need to be conscious of and I go and talk to young people in schools about how to have a successful career and not what to do. There's a couple of things we look at. One is just a sort of way of thinking about it. We talk about careers as a noun. You know, have a career. And that comes with lots of words like career, structure and ladder and path. And it sort of feels like it's all uphill for the rest of your life. But actually, if you switch it around and can think about it as a verb, careering, it comes with words like, sounds more fun, it's much more fun. And, you know, careering down a hill, you know, you've got speed, exhilaration, change of direction, lack of control. That's what life is like. That's what work life is like, all of those things.

[James Reed]

So you turn career from a noun to a verb.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Turn it into a noun.

[James Reed]

And so, hang on, do you turn it into a noun?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

I turn it from a noun into a verb.

[James Reed]

That's what I thought.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

So, so I first of all say to young people, people, think about going careering for the rest of your life. But if you're. Instead of something you have, it's something you do, it's an activity. And if you're going to do it well, there's a set of skills you need to have. And as an, you know, making yourself a successfully employable human being, you need to be able to take decisions, you need to be able to communicate well. You don't want to leave a trail of bodies. All these skills that you need to have to get you successfully through life.

[James Reed]

What do you mean? You don't leave a trail of bodies?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

You don't want to be the. You don't want to be toxic. You don't want to be the asshole in the room. You know, you want to make sure that people enjoy working with you and being with you. But if you're, if you're leaving a trailer, bodies behind you as you clamber up, you know, clamber through your life, that'll catch up with you eventually. But reputation is something I talk to them about, which is understand that you do have a reputation. You're in.

[James Reed]

You know, all kids will have a reputation amongst their classmates.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

You can, but you can influence that reputation by doing great stuff and also by being completely clear and, and, and consistently, you know, ruthlessly consistent in the way you present yourself.

[James Reed]

So you do this presentation. What's the question you get asked most commonly at the end?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Have I worked with Lewis Hamilton?

[James Reed]

To which you say, yes, well, Here's a guy with an amazing reputation actually. And I thought what you said right at the beginning about how he sort of went beyond being the fastest racing driver into something on a different level was so interesting and he really has achieved that. I know colleagues of mine just follow everything. He does have huge admiration for him, so. But he obviously wanted that there was something, it was a big part of what was inside him. It wasn't. Someone said, well, that's what you should do next. Lewis, was it?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

No, that's, you know, he's, he's completely driven as far as that's concerned. And there are other racing drivers who want, you know, who, who don't want that and who are quite happy just doing the racing driving bit and then disappearing off, sit on their super yacht or something like that. So.

[James Reed]

Ye. Hey, thanks for coming and talking to me, David. I've really enjoyed that. I've learned a lot. I'm going to be harvesting cash flow from my marketing team from now on and I've got two questions I always ask at the end, which I'll ask you and the first is, it's related to this poster beside us is what gets you up on a Monday morning?

[David Robertson Mitchell]

What gets me up on a Monday morning? I think just the sheer variety of what I do. Working with other people. For me, when I started my business, I looked at the marketplace for corporate brands and there are hundreds of corporate brand consultants and I thought, no, actually I want to work with people. I want to because when you do something for a company it's okay, but when you change somebody's life, when you work with somebody to really change the direction they're going, that's immensely satisfying for me. It's working with people.

[James Reed]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more with that. And then the last question is, where do you see yourself in 5 years time? This is a question from my interview book. Why you.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

You retired.

[James Reed]

Retired, but with a great reputation.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

Well, I turned, I turned 60 last, last year and so I see myself the next five years just doing stuff I enjoy doing. But yeah, 65, 66, that's, that's probably when I'll sort of hang my business.

[James Reed]

You're a bit of a historical sleuth. I haven't today.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

I am, yeah. I won't, I won't stop doing stuff, but I just, maybe just move away from work and do the stuff I really enjoy doing.

[James Reed]

Fantastic. Thank you. Thank you for coming, sir.

[David Robertson Mitchell]

It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much.

[James Reed]

Thank you very much. Thank you, David, for joining me. On All About Business. I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reid or the brand rover, all links are in the show notes. See you next time.