28. How UK businesses can improve efficiency in manufacturing | Livio Manzini

Summary

Summary of "James Reed: All About Business" - Episode 28: How UK Businesses Can Improve Efficiency in Manufacturing with Livio Manzini

Podcast Information:

• Title: James Reed: All About Business
• Host: James Reed CBE, Chairman and CEO of Reed Group
• Guest: Livio Manzini, Chairman and CEO of Bell Holdings, President of the Italian Chamber of Commerce and Industry in Turkey
• Episode: 28. How UK businesses can improve efficiency in manufacturing
• Release Date: May 19, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 28 of "James Reed: All About Business," host James Reed engages in a comprehensive discussion with Livio Manzini, the Chairman and CEO of Bell Holdings. The conversation delves into various aspects of manufacturing efficiency, the challenges and strategies within UK businesses, and the broader implications of global trade dynamics. Livio brings a wealth of experience from his three-generation family business based in Turkey, offering actionable insights for business leaders aiming to enhance their operational strategies.

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Early Career and Apprenticeship

The episode begins with James Reed highlighting Livio's formative years, particularly his apprenticeship under Philippe d'Estelle, a renowned figure in the recruitment industry. Livio recounts how, at a young age of 24, he was appointed as the general manager of Echo's UK operations during a tumultuous period marked by Brexit and rising tariffs.

Livio Manzini [03:23]: "Philip Destoz was my first employer after school... he was very good at seeing the potential in people."

This early responsibility taught Livio invaluable lessons in leadership, cost management, and customer focus, laying the foundation for his future endeavors in the manufacturing sector.

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Management Philosophy: Cost-Consciousness and Customer Focus

Livio attributes much of his management philosophy to his mentor, Philippe d'Estelle. He emphasizes two core principles:

1. Cost-Consciousness: Philippe instilled a stringent approach to cost management, often going to great lengths to minimize expenses. From opting for super cheap travel arrangements to sharing hotel rooms, Philippe's frugality was a testament to his dedication.

   Livio Manzini [04:29]: "He was extremely cost-conscious... to save money, we once went to New York and had to share a room because they were very expensive."

2. Customer Focus and Follow-Up: Philippe's approach to customer relations was meticulous. He would personally visit branches, ensuring that customer feedback was documented and acted upon rigorously.

   Livio Manzini [05:03]: "He would not visit a branch without a customer visit... next time I came, I would follow up on what we discussed."

These principles not only saved the company but also fostered a culture of excellence and accountability.

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Rethinking the Calendar: A Call for the Roman Calendar

A unique and engaging segment of the conversation revolves around Livio's advocacy for reverting to the original Roman calendar, which starts the year in spring rather than January.

Livio Manzini [07:57]: "Everything said that it's actually pre-Roman... the cycle of 12 months in a year is closer to nature."

He argues that aligning the calendar with natural cycles can enhance productivity and well-being, drawing parallels with Lithuania's Persian New Year celebration, Nevruz, which marks the beginning of spring.

This discussion extends to business practices, where Livio shares Reed Turkey's innovative approach of dividing the year into 13 four-week periods, facilitating more consistent and comparable financial reporting.

James Reed [13:07]: "We have 13 four-week periods... you get 13 goes at sort of making sales."

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Improving Manufacturing Efficiency

The conversation transitions to manufacturing efficiency, where Livio critiques the traditional five-day workweek prevalent in the UK compared to Turkey's six-day schedule. He highlights the competitive disadvantage this presents, especially in continuous production environments.

Livio Manzini [25:30]: "The Turkish worker works six days a week... productivity is not just a question of money, it's a question of flexibility of attitude to work."

Livio emphasizes the importance of aligning work schedules with production needs to maximize efficiency and reduce idle machinery time.

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Turkey's Role in Global Manufacturing

Livio provides an in-depth analysis of Turkey's strategic position as a manufacturing hub. He cites factors such as:

• Geographical Advantage: With a large landmass, Turkey offers ample space for greenfield sites.
• Infrastructure: Excellent transportation, telecommunications, and banking systems.
• Workforce: A young, educated, and industrious population with high productivity levels.
• Customs Union with the EU: Facilitates smoother trade relations.

Livio Manzini [17:29]: "Turkey is a very good manufacturing hub... top class banking system, good universities, big population."

These factors collectively make Turkey an attractive alternative to traditional manufacturing powerhouses, especially as companies seek to decouple from China.

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Navigating Global Trade and Protectionism

Livio discusses the rising trends of protectionism and trade wars, expressing concern over their potential to hinder global economic growth.

Livio Manzini [21:35]: "Trade wars are only losers... there are only losers."

He underscores the necessity for businesses to stay ahead through continuous innovation and automation to remain competitive in a fragmented trade landscape.

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Adapting and Innovating in Business

Highlighting Bell Holdings' adaptability, Livio shares the company's evolution from soap manufacturing to packaging solutions. He attributes this success to:

• Agility: Quickly responding to market changes.
• Investment in Technology: Upgrading machinery and automating production lines.
• Benchmarking: Regularly comparing performance against international standards.

Livio Manzini [23:03]: "Our motto has always been Adapt or die."

This proactive approach enabled Bell Holdings to thrive despite the removal of protectionist barriers and increased global competition.

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Sustaining a Family Business Across Generations

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on transitioning leadership within a family-run business. Livio emphasizes the importance of:

• Adaptability: Embracing change and innovation.
• Benchmarking: Continuously assessing and improving operational standards.
• Succession Planning: Mentoring the next generation without coercion.

Livio Manzini [32:04]: "It's adaptability, being agile, adaptive and open to new ideas."

He shares his personal journey of leaving an international career to join the family business, underscoring his entrepreneurial spirit and commitment.

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The Intersection of Service and Manufacturing

Livio highlights the synergy between service-oriented approaches and manufacturing processes. By prioritizing customer-specific requirements and maintaining long-term relationships, Bell Holdings has achieved sustained success.

Livio Manzini [45:11]: "We have developed long-standing relationships... because you are giving them what they want in terms of quality but also service."

This blend of service excellence with manufacturing efficiency sets Bell Holdings apart in a competitive market.

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Climate Change and Sustainable Manufacturing

Addressing one of the most pressing global issues, Livio discusses the challenges and imperatives of sustainable manufacturing. He advocates for:

• Recycling Initiatives: Launching businesses focused on recycling plastic packaging.
• Government Policies: Implementing fiscal policies to incentivize the use of recycled materials.
• Innovation: Investing in biodegradable materials and advanced recycling technologies.

Livio Manzini [48:34]: "If you want people to use more recycled plastic material, you have to make the virgin plastic material more expensive."

He stresses the need for coordinated global efforts to effectively tackle environmental concerns without compromising economic competitiveness.

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Closing Thoughts and Advice for Entrepreneurs

In the concluding segments, Livio offers valuable advice for aspiring entrepreneurs:

1. Start with a Dream: Begin with a clear vision or problem you intend to solve.
2. Prepare for Challenges: Entrepreneurship involves significant dedication and overcoming failures.
3. Seek Objective Feedback: Utilize virtual boards and associations to gain unbiased perspectives on your ventures.

Livio Manzini [40:25]: "You need to have spotted something that you are making. Going to make a different hamburger... you set up to make a better sock or whatever."

He reiterates the importance of adaptability, continuous learning, and maintaining a strong customer focus to drive business success.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Livio Manzini [23:03]: "Our motto has always been Adapt or die."
• Livio Manzini [32:04]: "It's adaptability, being agile, adaptive and open to new ideas."
• Livio Manzini [45:11]: "We have developed long-standing relationships... because you are giving them what they want in terms of quality but also service."

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Conclusion

Episode 28 of "James Reed: All About Business" offers a rich exploration of manufacturing efficiency, global trade dynamics, and sustainable business practices through the lens of Livio Manzini's extensive experience. Livio's insights underscore the importance of adaptability, continuous innovation, and a customer-centric approach in navigating the complexities of modern business landscapes. For UK businesses aiming to enhance their manufacturing efficiency, the lessons from this conversation are both actionable and profoundly relevant.

Transcript

[James Reed]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. With Brexit and unexpected tariffs throwing international trade into disarray, how can UK companies protect themselves during times of economic uncertainty? Joining me today on All About Business is Livio Manzini. Livio is the Chairman and CEO of Turkish manufacturing company Bell holdings, which has been in his family for three generations. He's also president of the Italian Chamber of Commerce and Industry in Turkey. In this episode we discuss the key to achieving success in manufacturing, what taking over a family business is really like, and why we need to ditch the Georgian calendar. Well, today on All About Business, I couldn't be more delighted than to welcome Livio Manzini, who's traveled all the way from Istanbul in Turkey to talk to us. Full disclosure here. Livio is my business partner in Turkey and has been for 15 years now and I've invited him to come and talk to us on the podcast All About Business because every single meeting I've had with LIVIA over those 15 years, I have learned something that I didn't expect or was interesting and I found helpful. And I'm sure we're going to learn a lot and he's going to be sharing some new points that I don't even know about in this conversation. Now, Livio is the CEO and Chairman of Bell holdings, which is a manufacturing company based in Turkey. Although he's of Italian heritage, he was born in Turkey but is fluent in Italian and Turkish. And he's also the chairman, honorary, honorary chairman, honorary chairman of the Italian Chamber of Commerce in Istanbul and Turkey as well. So thank you so much for making the journey. Livio, really warm welcome. I'm going to ask you a very self serving question to begin with because I happen to know, because you told me before that your so early apprenticeship was served with a man called Philippe d' Estelle who's a sort of legend in the recruitment world because Philippe founded his French and founded the company Echo in France, which later emerged with a company called ADIA to become Adeco, which was the ultimately the biggest recruitment company in the world. But your apprenticeship with Philippe was, I believe, here in the UK as he was expanding Ecco in the uk And I'd like you to just tell me a little bit about what you did and what you learned.

[Livio Manzini]

Well, Jim, thank you very much for having me here today. I must say it's a real pleasure and an honor to be in your podcast. Yes, the UK has figured prominently life at different stages of my life. I was a student here, then later I worked for a British company as their country manager in Turkey. But Philip Destoz was my first employer after school, and he was really charismatic, I think. I mean, I shouldn't say this, but I think he was very good at seeing the potential in people because I was very young and the uk, The UK operation was not doing very well, and there was even some question of whether it was going to continue or not.

[James Reed]

So this was the company echo in the UK.

[Livio Manzini]

The company Echo in the UK, it had 15 branches and I was basically fresh out of school and I said, no, I think the people here deserve to be given a second chance. And he made me general manager. I mean, age what, 24, 25. So I learned a lot from him.

[James Reed]

So he put you in charge of those? 15, 24.

[Livio Manzini]

They saved the company, I think, but.

[James Reed]

So I shouldn't save the company. But what did you get from him in that process? You said you learned a lot from him. How did, how does he operate?

[Livio Manzini]

Learned a lot from him. Well, he had two. Two peculiarities. One, he was very cost conscious, and he started with himself. So he hated costs.

[James Reed]

Hated costs.

[Livio Manzini]

He hated cost services.

[James Reed]

Hating costs. I've known that before in services.

[Livio Manzini]

You. You really have to. To be very cost conscious. The margins we were making were clearly not very, very comfortable. And therefore in his private life, he could be, you know, it was said that the company was his wife and his wife was his mistress. And so he was treating well. He was treating well his wife.

[James Reed]

This is a continental thing. We don't have this sort of behavior.

[Livio Manzini]

In England, they said in the company. And so. So he was extremely cost conscious. When I started going for him to the US it was always on companies at the time existed like People Express or on spare tickets that were sold at the last minute.

[James Reed]

So not only did you not go class.

[Livio Manzini]

No, no, no, no. Didn't even go economically.

[James Reed]

It didn't even go economy.

[Livio Manzini]

Super cheap, super cheap, super cost conscious. Also the hotels we were staying in and so on.

[James Reed]

I remember he. He made you share a room with him, didn't he?

[Livio Manzini]

Exactly, exactly. To save money, we once went to New York and we, we had to share the room because they were very expensive. So this was one of his peculiarities. But the other, the most important one, he was very charismatic. So people really love to work for him and he was very customer focused. And this is maybe the big took from him. I mean he would not go to visit a branch even in far flung place of France. At the time the company was mostly France without going to a customer visit. And branch managers knew if Philip d' Estussi was coming, they had to have a customer visit in, in the program. And there were these books and when somebody was visiting they would make notes of sort of things to do that were decided there. At the time there was no Internet, there was no mail. And so next time you came, you opened the book and you said oh yeah, last time I was here we talked about this, this happened in discussions, what happened and you would follow up.

[James Reed]

You had a follow up on that.

[Livio Manzini]

You had really follow up. So one was customer focus, second it was also follow up. He was good at choosing his collaborators, his team. He had excellent people. And when he delegated, he basically delegated fully. I mean at the time, all where communications, you know, we basically. I came of age when the facts started being used so you couldn't micromanage. I mean I was in the uk, I was on my own and I remember once I called him on a problem I had. He said it's your battle.

[James Reed]

I mean it sounds immodest in you saying, but I'm observing that and you're an extremely effective business leaders who he spotted when you were in your early 20s. So. But you saw that in others as well, that you worked?

[Livio Manzini]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. The people I worked with, yeah. There was also a kind of joy of living in, in people enjoyed themselves too.

[James Reed]

Yeah, I think, I mean, I mean.

[Livio Manzini]

They sometimes made fun of the boss because he was stingy and so on but.

[James Reed]

Well, people make fun of the boss, I mean for some reason or other.

[Livio Manzini]

But they, they got that culture. So you know, there's nothing wrong with.

[James Reed]

Being known for being stingy is you're trying to have a cost controlling culture. So there's some valuable lessons. So recently Livia, we, we were looking at our business plans for the year ahead for Read Turkey, which we run together, are partners in and we were talking on a fairly dry subject of accounting and, and suddenly, you know, you shared with me a whole world of information I had no idea about, which I'm going to ask you about now because I was so mesmerized by this. I thought it was absolutely fascinating. And this is about the way our calendar works. I mean, I know you're biased because you're of Italian background, but in particular, why you think we should be using the original Roman calendar. Is that correct? Yes, it's.

[Livio Manzini]

It's a bit facetious of me to. To say that we should move back to that, but.

[James Reed]

Well, let's hear it.

[Livio Manzini]

I mean, everything said that it's actually pre Roman and it, it is a calendar or, you know, the cycle of 12 months in a year which is closer to nature. And we as human beings or as living beings have been programmed, our metabolism has been programmed to work well in tune with the natural phases. As a matter of fact, the Economist, I think last week advocated for the elimination of summertime, saying that it's, you know, it's ridiculous to continue.

[James Reed]

I'm also interested in your argument, Olivia. Con. And then.

[Livio Manzini]

No, no, but coming back to the calendar, it's actually pre Roman with basically the year starting with spring. The year begins in spring and life begins in spring.

[James Reed]

When exactly in spring?

[Livio Manzini]

Well, 21st of March.

[James Reed]

So you're saying that's the spring equinox, that's the beginning of the year in the ancient Egypt.

[Livio Manzini]

Absolutely. Today in Iran, which is, together with the Vatican, the only two theocracies I know the biggest festival or occurrence in the year are not the Islamic ones, but 21 March, Nevruz, the start of spring. And it is the start of the official year in today's Iranian calendar. And the whole country closes down for close to a week.

[James Reed]

So this predates Islam, Zoroastrianism, cult of.

[Livio Manzini]

Fire and all that. The Romans, of course, they started also with it and they gave names to the months. And so it started with the Ides of March, more or less, I guess. I don't know.

[James Reed]

What are the Ides of March?

[Livio Manzini]

Probably around 21st of March as well. So that's, that's when it started. And this is why today a September, taking from the Latin Sept, which means 7, should be the seventh month of the year and not the ninth month of the year. October, which is Octo 8, should be the eighth. November.

[James Reed]

This must be particularly upsetting you as an Italian. All the numbers are like two hours.

[Livio Manzini]

And it's. And it's not working because September is the 9th.

[James Reed]

October is ridiculous, clearly.

[Livio Manzini]

Yeah, exactly.

[James Reed]

I mean, it's quite funny why that happened, isn't it?

[Livio Manzini]

The Romans also messed it up a little bit.

[James Reed]

They messed it up, the Romans.

[Livio Manzini]

Messy tip. And then you have a Julius Caesar that comes along and he decides that because he's God, whatever, he has a Month all to himself. So he takes July.

[James Reed]

Oh, so he's so important, he gives the month his own name.

[Livio Manzini]

Yeah. So Julius. July is the month of Julius Caesar and it has 31 days. Then along comes Augustus and he says, who am I?

[James Reed]

He's another important emperor.

[Livio Manzini]

Exactly. So he takes August to himself and.

[James Reed]

He can't have fewer days and he cannot have.

[Livio Manzini]

Here it is.

[James Reed]

So he's got 31 as well.

[Livio Manzini]

So he goes. Where does he steal the day from? From the last month of the year, which is February. He steals it from February. This is why February is a bit of a, you know, bizarre month with less days than everybody else.

[James Reed]

Just stole a day from February.

[Livio Manzini]

Well, yes. And then he had. You didn't know that he had to reschedule everything else.

[James Reed]

So he rescheduled it. So then what? So then February ended up short.

[Livio Manzini]

February ended up short. And maybe it was the last.

[James Reed]

Numbers are all out.

[Livio Manzini]

And it was the last month of the year. And it is in tune with nature. I mean, if you say that, that life restarts every year in spring, which it does. And our metabolism, everything else. I think also for business, it works better than the Gregorian calendar on top of it.

[James Reed]

So just explain the Gregorian calendar.

[Livio Manzini]

Well, this is where we start on 1st of January, what we have now. And then, of course, the Russians have got something a bit different because the. The first Christian calendar moved to January and all that.

[James Reed]

Yeah.

[Livio Manzini]

And then Pope Gregorius, he also brought it back a few. He made some calculations and he changed the day. So, yeah, the Orthodox and the Catholics have got different kinds of riots.

[James Reed]

In England, when the Pope did that because people thought they'd lost 10 days of their life. It really kicked off in London. I remember studying that. So that's what happened. So, you know, there's a lot going on with these dates. So what are the implications for business?

[Livio Manzini]

Well, the implication of business. I mean, right now we have at the end of year for companies that close down their accounts at the end of December, which, By the way, December DHE10 is the 10th. Should be the 10th. We have Christmas, which is a big holiday. Then New Year, which is also, you know, time festive. And we have to close the year. We have to make up our budgets. So it's quite stressful. If Christmas remained in December, but New Year was either the end of February or the end of March. I think for business it would probably work better, certainly for.

[James Reed]

So it could be for CEOs.

[Livio Manzini]

The.

[James Reed]

Spring equinox would be your preference.

[Livio Manzini]

My preference, Yes.

[James Reed]

I think we might struggle Persuade people to do that. But I would agree that's got a lot of appeal. The interesting time of year for a holiday as well.

[Livio Manzini]

Exactly. Interestingly in. In some countries the government's fiscal year is in March.

[James Reed]

Yeah, it is here. Well, it started. The tax year starts beginning of April. So your business. Do you. Does your accounting year end in December?

[Livio Manzini]

Yes, it does.

[James Reed]

So I was used to. And then we switched it to end in June, which I find quite helpful because you don't have the stress of the sort of Christmas.

[Livio Manzini]

Absolutely. No, no, you're quite right. Activities plus you divided the year not in 12 months but in 52 weeks, which is also brilliant.

[James Reed]

So just to explain to listeners, in our business we have 13 four week periods.

[Livio Manzini]

Exactly.

[James Reed]

Which we introduce. Oh, a long time ago now, 2008, which was a bit of an adjustment from 12 months. But people like it because they get paid 13 times.

[Livio Manzini]

Oh, okay.

[James Reed]

And I like it because you get 13 goes at sort of making sales and.

[Livio Manzini]

And then you can compare one period.

[James Reed]

With another and the periods are the same length and so comparable. Rather than a 31 day month versus a 28 day month. And that's actually the lunar cycle. So it's more in tune with nature as well.

[Livio Manzini]

Excellent.

[James Reed]

So that's what I like about rhythm with the lunar cycle. What do you think about the clocks going backwards and forwards then given this? Because that's an added piece of confusion that's been thrown in by administrators.

[Livio Manzini]

You mean the summertime? Yeah, yeah. I think summertime is. Maybe at the time there was a reason. There is absolutely no good reason for. I mean the specialists say that it's not good for your health either because.

[James Reed]

We all get jet lag or something. Is it?

[Livio Manzini]

Well, I don't know.

[James Reed]

Well, in the spring I find like this time of year, early summer, I wake up really early in the morning.

[Livio Manzini]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Because it's the daylight, I suppose. And. And I like to get up early when it's like that. But I don't feel like that in December, which is now in my mind as the 10th month of the year. So I'm only going to be confused. So. So this is interesting because I think, well, life works to certain rhythms, doesn't it?

[Livio Manzini]

Exactly.

[James Reed]

So trying to get your established in.

[Livio Manzini]

The way our energy level, I mean it changes with age as well, but it does also change with. With nature. And the idea is to get the most to work in a company, to have the company work at its best. And the company is made up of people. Machines are important, but people are as you know, always more important.

[James Reed]

It's probably something that not many managers and business leaders give that much thought to, but it's well worth thinking about. You're based in Turkey, your business is based in Turkey. Could you just tell me a little bit about it? Bell Holdings.

[Livio Manzini]

Okay, well, Bell holding is turning 85 this year, so clearly I am, let's say third generation. It was originally set up making soap, so we didn't steal the name Bell from anybody. It was a, a soap. And interestingly enough, the brand belonged to Unilever. At the time, Lever Brothers Port Sunlight was their main soap manufacturing place. It was 1940s. International trade has totally collapsed and Turkey basically was not even producing soap. So a group of European permanent residents in at the time. Constantinople. No, sorry, it was already Istanbul maybe decided to, to make soap. So they opened a small soap factory. And then if you fast forward, holding is just a holding and the companies that are fully controlled are all involved in making packaging material for fast moving consumer goods, plus some activities in services such as Reed Turkey. But the bulk is making consumer goods packaging in both aluminum and plastic for pharmaceuticals, personal care, home care, food. Those are the main.

[James Reed]

So what sort of products specifically might you be? Packaging.

[Livio Manzini]

We make the packaging. We don't feel them, you don't. The customer fills them. Companies, I mean, multinationals such as Unilever.

[James Reed]

So Unilever is still a big client.

[Livio Manzini]

Unilever is still one of our main customers. Yes.

[James Reed]

Yeah.

[Livio Manzini]

We would make for instance, aerosol cans in aluminum for them. Then for pharmaceutical companies, we make tubes for creams, ointments. We would make bottles for ketchup, mayonnaise or shampoo.

[James Reed]

And all these things we sort of just pick up and use. Probably take for granted.

[Livio Manzini]

Absolutely.

[James Reed]

You're producing and you do that for export principles.

[Livio Manzini]

You cannot export, but we do export. And obviously our customers in Turkey, they in turn, once they have filled the bottle or the tube, they do export the finished product.

[James Reed]

Right. So a lot of these products, cans, bottles end up in other countries.

[Livio Manzini]

Exactly. Turkey is a, is a very good manufacturing hub, let's say, for these multinationals, some of whom by the way, are now Turkish multinationals. Because over time countries such as Turkey have developed their own champions, Right, who have grown internationally.

[James Reed]

I mean, Turkey, as you said, is a, is a very important hub for manufacturing now and seems to have won a lot of business from Europe and elsewhere. What, what is it about Turkey that makes it so good for this type of work?

[Livio Manzini]

After the collapse, let's say of the Soviet Union, the first countries where Manufacturing investment went where the Eastern European countries, places like Poland, Hungary and so on. Like in North America, the Americans developed this, what is being called the co Prosperity sphere. With Mexico, Canada and the US in, in Europe we pulled in the ex, let's say Soviet colonies. Turkey was on the fringes and then started becoming more important. What is in particular now that we want to say, just to use a term that is being used, decouple from China, from the Far East. If you look at it closely, there aren't so many other alternatives for the EU than Turkey. I mean Turkey is a big landmass, so there is space to build greenfield sites, the infrastructure is excellent. Communications, I mean Turkish Airlines is the airline in the world with the most international connections. Number one, telecommunications, roads, shipping. You have harbors, you have top class harbors, you have top class banking system, you have people educated, good universities, population, big population. And they are hard workers. I mean basically at the end of the day, what makes a difference when I say is people. The Turkish worker is productive. Yes. Obviously the cost of labor is still lower than in the eu but productivity is not just a question of money, it's a question of flexibility of attitude to work. And, and in Turkey all these are, are positives. I mean we have factories outside of Turkey as well and we see the difference.

[James Reed]

So that positions Turkey pretty well for, I mean how big's the population of Turkey?

[Livio Manzini]

Population of Turkey is 85 million.

[James Reed]

Right.

[Livio Manzini]

It grew very fast. It's now like the rest of the world demographics are now. So it' yet an aging country. It's just about there. It's starting to approach the threshold.

[James Reed]

So it might become more like Europe.

[Livio Manzini]

It will eventually. Yeah. But it still has a catching up to do because per capita income is still lower than the EU average. And the Turkey, the Turks are really interested in doing this catching up. They want to get there.

[James Reed]

Isn't Turkey in the customs union, is that correct?

[Livio Manzini]

Exactly. One of the big advantages I failed to mention it is that it has a customs union with the eu. And now it has also interesting, we.

[James Reed]

We do not have exactly which I.

[Livio Manzini]

Mean it's quite telling but for the uk the relationship with Turkey is so important that the next day from Brexit, the UK signed a trade deal with Turkey. It was the first trade agreement they signed and it was less than 24.

[James Reed]

Hours after having left EU and I didn't know that.

[Livio Manzini]

Yeah, so. And now they're negotiating an even deeper, let's say trade relation between the UK and Turkey.

[James Reed]

Trade is very much on the global agenda, isn't it? With tariffs being increased and the potential for a trade war escalating. I mean, where do you think we're headed with all this? I mean as someone who's been sort of.

[Livio Manzini]

Well, obviously I, I view it with alarm but also a lot of sadness because after, let's say the collapse of the Soviet Union and the failure of ideology, managed economies, let's say there was a period and they even said, you know, it's the end history where everybody was in tune and the benefits of globalization, the benefits of managing economies rationally. And everybody was in agreement with that and it lifted billions of people out of poverty.

[James Reed]

So that's your perspective from Turkey. You could see.

[Livio Manzini]

Yeah, yeah, you could see that happening.

[James Reed]

Yeah, because in America they all in parts of the UK they saw certain cities and, and, and neighborhoods in decline.

[Livio Manzini]

Well, there are always winners and losers.

[James Reed]

Yeah, that seems to be.

[Livio Manzini]

And the politicians I think are at fault addressing that there are going to be losers and you have to address that fact. You cannot just ignore it.

[James Reed]

So de industrialization in Europe.

[Livio Manzini]

Exactly so. But it did the world a lot of good. And the average American got much richer. The average European got also richer, but not that much. But then at some point they stopped and now you have new walls being erected everywhere, some of them in my view, mental. And it is sad because it's going to be again opportunities lost. Protectionism hidden with the words fair trade has never actually created. I mean some people will win clearly, but on aggregate I don't see that.

[James Reed]

Well, the history of protectionism, I'm not an expert, you might be able to help me. But is that people have always decided they don't want to do it anymore at some point because it hasn't worked, I think, or it hasn't given them the upside perhaps they were hoping for.

[Livio Manzini]

Well, you see, we have this experience, I mean if I look at it from the point of view of Bellholding, okay, so our Main Company in 1980 was the company making aluminum tubes and aerosol cans. Turkey was extremely protectionist. It was a close society producer working. We could sell what we were producing at any price. People had no choice. You wanted an YouTube, you had to come to us.

[James Reed]

No one else was produced. So you know, you had to market yourself.

[Livio Manzini]

You had the market yourself and then overnight the then prime minister eliminated custom barriers.

[James Reed]

So you went from high tariffs to no tariffs.

[Livio Manzini]

It wasn't just a question of tariffs. You needed import permits to import anything. It was a fairly complex kind of thing to tell you. And it went on for much longer, the importation of alcohol was not forbidden, but it was the monopoly of the state and the state didn't use that monopoly. So no alcohol was imported. But officially it wasn't forbidden, you know, that kind of thing. So. And we had to adapt or die. And this is our motto, the motto of our company has always been Adapt.

[James Reed]

Or die as your motto.

[Livio Manzini]

You know, we had, I don't know how many people we had at the time and now we have one third and we're making three times as much. It's more or less that kind of ratio. Because you become inefficient when you are constituted and protected and so on. You have no incentive to become better, you see. And this is why competition is so good. This is why, I mean, capitalism and liberal economics are based on this. But there are losers. There are always going to be losers. And tomorrow this could be us politicians.

[James Reed]

Not many politicians seem to be making the case for this, which is interesting, seems to have gone out of fashion or everyone's decided it wasn't the right thing. But I look back on the last 25 years and think that was a sort of golden era.

[Livio Manzini]

Being a liberal today in the US I think is an insult.

[James Reed]

I don't think it is here. But there is a Liberal party which is. It doesn't get a lot of votes.

[Livio Manzini]

No, no, I'm not talking in terms of.

[James Reed]

No, I know it's become sort of a label that find disparaging. So flipping it from the Turkish experience, why do you think the US or Europe has not competed successfully in manufacturing? Why is it that we, you know, because this is where manufacturing started.

[Livio Manzini]

Yes, it's still continuing, you know.

[James Reed]

Yeah, but it doesn't, I mean, not.

[Livio Manzini]

In the UK that much. But Germany and Italy are still big manufacturing countries and manufacturing is still an important part of their economy. And now Spain as well. And then as I told you, Poland and Hungary have taken over. But at the end of the day, it's really about first of all, clearly innovation and secondly about productivity. I'll give you a very simple example. If you work five days a week and another country, the blue collar workers work six days a week like in Turkey. Okay, so that already is a 20 difference. Okay.

[James Reed]

Oh, you didn't say that earlier. So the Turkish worker works six days.

[Livio Manzini]

Six days a week? Yeah, 48 hours.

[James Reed]

48 hours, exactly.

[Livio Manzini]

The difference between five and six days is not just a question of labor work time. Your capital invested in the machinery is also working only five and not six days.

[James Reed]

Yeah.

[Livio Manzini]

So the price at which you have to sell the goods that come out. You're losing out on the economies of scale because you also now have idle plant. And in a world where everybody's working five days a week and all the plants are closed for two days, that wouldn't be so dramatic. But it's not the case. And it's not just a question of how much you pay the workers. I haven't done the maths, but I think in Europe you could pay people more but get them to work more. Now we seem to be wanting to work less for more. Clearly, life work balance is important, but at the end of the day, when you are in production processes which are continuous, you need to keep plant and machining working all the time.

[James Reed]

So there's a debate or in the uk, some people are arguing for a four day working week. Do you have that in Turkey? Are people advocating that? No, no. You're looking a bit incredulous. And I think the people who are making that argument, I don't expect to get, you know, 80% of the pay. They expect to get the full pay for the four days. And the, the idea is you do 10 hours a day for four days instead of eight hours a day for five. What would you take on that?

[Livio Manzini]

It really depends what kind of business you're in. But for manufacturing that doesn't work.

[James Reed]

Are your manufacturing plants open 24 7?

[Livio Manzini]

Yes, absolutely.

[James Reed]

So you're running all the time?

[Livio Manzini]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Reed]

And schedule people.

[Livio Manzini]

So yeah, shift to where you do three times eight shift work is, is difficult. I mean we talked about being in tune with nature. Yes, clearly working at night is not natural and therefore people work at night, do get more. It's, it's all fair but you need to keep the plans working.

[James Reed]

I hadn't thought of that. If you have 10 hour working days, you can't get three in a 24 hour.

[Livio Manzini]

It's very difficult.

[James Reed]

That goes with what you were saying right at the beginning.

[Livio Manzini]

Eight hours you have to build a fourth shift or a fifth shift becomes very.

[James Reed]

And people don't get enough hours. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I suppose that's being sort of driven by people who work in service type.

[Livio Manzini]

Well, exactly as I'm saying, you. It depends the type of business that you're in.

[James Reed]

Well, the message I'm receiving from you is we're in a very competitive world and if, if not everyone's working at the same pace and at the same, on the same timetable, don't be upset if you get out competed.

[Livio Manzini]

Well, I mean the Chinese have got two Advantages. They work very hard right now, by the way, their monthly salary is, has gone up. Chinese, you know, the Chinese, they're not working for a pittance.

[James Reed]

So quite well paid now.

[Livio Manzini]

Well, quite well. They're much better paid than, than the time. I mean, I think it's coming close to Turkey, Bulgaria, Romania, whatever kind of stuff. But they work the hours and they're very productive. They work very hard and they have a scale. So they have these economies of scale which are very difficult to match because they're, you know, they're producing for an economy of 1.3 billion people.

[James Reed]

What do you think will happen then with these tariffs on Chinese goods?

[Livio Manzini]

No, the tariffs are, I respect everybody's opinion. I don't see any good coming from the tariffs. And it is actually surprising because the economy of the US was really at the end of the Biden era in great shape and it was top dog in the world. When you look at the per capita income between the US and the EU like 20 years ago it was fairly close and then it diverged and the US Is now much richer. So criticizing the EU is, seems, seems very strange.

[James Reed]

But it is on paper, isn't it? But is that money evenly spread, you know, the per capita income, or has it all gone to people like Jeff Bezos who's sort of worth a fortune?

[Livio Manzini]

Yeah, no, no, that's, that's a good point. I don't, I don't know. I mean, clearly inequalities are much higher in the US Than they would be in some EU Countries. Clearly.

[James Reed]

And this now global sort of change is driven by U. S politics, obviously.

[Livio Manzini]

Absolutely.

[James Reed]

I mean, because the president is, seems to be doing absolutely what he said he'd do when he saw election. He is giving his voters what they asked for.

[Livio Manzini]

Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[James Reed]

Yeah. So that's sort of so not much the rest of us. So we've got to live in this world of sort of fractured trade. What advice would you give to businesses?

[Livio Manzini]

I mean, the businesses in the EU let's say, or UK or even the American ones, you have to, to always be one step ahead, and that is R and D innovation. So investing in higher education, research, automation. I mean, one way to reshore some jobs is to make them highly automated. We ourselves are very much involved in trying to improve our productivity with digitalizing our production lines and after that trying to automate them. But for European UK Business, it's a life or death situation. I mean, you need to stay one step ahead.

[James Reed]

It seems that extreme. Why do you say that? Life or death situation. That's a strong well because if you're.

[Livio Manzini]

Going to compete with the productivity of your labor force, it's going to be difficult because you're not going to go back to a six day week. So you need to do more with less. And this is automation, highly automated factories, bringing in robots. A lot has been done, a lot more can be do can be done. And I think the public authorities, the governments have to pay for part of, of this transition. Let's say what is in a sense also worrying is that the Chinese are doing a lot of that. So against the other emerging markets like Brazil, South Africa, India, whatever, we can still stay one step ahead with China is more difficult.

[James Reed]

So this might be a trade war that China wins.

[Livio Manzini]

Oh, not up to me to speculate, not up to me to escape. I tend to believe that the trade wars are only losers.

[James Reed]

Yeah, they're only losers. Yeah.

[Livio Manzini]

There are only. At least this is what I think.

[James Reed]

I can see why you would say that. Let's talk for a little bit about sort of business through the generations. You said your company's 85 this year. Our company is 65 this year. So you've got 20 years. Congratulations to you. So your third generation. What does it take for a business to transition and grow and be, you know, super relevant like yours through three generations? And what are your thoughts for the future?

[Livio Manzini]

It's adaptability, being agile, adaptive and open to new ideas. In our case, you know, we moved from making soap to then making packaging. Then we were in a protected environment. The Prime Minister at the time, in 1980, he opened up the country all of a sudden and in our company at the time, it was headed by my father, they didn't sort of whine or cry or whatever. They said, okay guys, you know, let's get, get down to work. We have to remain relevant. So we have to adapt. We have to be agile.

[James Reed]

What did they do at that time to invest?

[Livio Manzini]

Invest in more in better plant and machines.

[James Reed]

They put more money into the business.

[Livio Manzini]

Exactly. Because it was. At the end of the day, when you are in a protected environment, why invest in new machinery?

[James Reed]

You can run your old ones.

[Livio Manzini]

Yeah, until they die. Then you benchmark. That's the other thing. You have to be extremely fair with yourself. And call is paid, is paid. You know where you are. You have to benchmark yourself with your competitors and see the distance. And the distance can be a matter of despair or can be a challenge. Okay, this is our target.

[James Reed]

But you're saying you were behind the competitors when you Started doing that.

[Livio Manzini]

International competitors.

[James Reed]

Yeah.

[Livio Manzini]

Oh, yeah.

[James Reed]

And that was quite hard at the time, I suppose, but they did it.

[Livio Manzini]

And then when I came.

[James Reed]

Just a question. How did you do that benchmarking Excel? Do you get consultants to do it or your own people? You got some outside help and that's what you asked for, a benchmarking exercise.

[Livio Manzini]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can also, I mean, we joined international associations of companies doing the same job and we do have benchmarks internally.

[James Reed]

But you suddenly became quite outward looking. I mean, you really embrace the change rather than complain about.

[Livio Manzini]

You embrace the change. But in order to do that, you also need. And that's also where, you know, maybe a bit like this to say we had in the company people that were you. You cannot impose that. You can preach by example, but they have to be, to have an open mind. Because you will hear like, oh yeah, this worked elsewhere, but this is Turkey. Or we've been doing it quite successfully like this for many years. Why change? In our case, it wasn't, it wasn't like that, first of all, maybe because they, they thought, okay, we, we can be hammered here. So that worked quite well. And when I came along, I came with a different set of experience. So this I would also recommend. I mean, Twerk for me doesn't necessarily work for everybody, but I had 10 years work experience, I mean, with Philippe Destres and then I joined Glaxo, with Glaxo and so on. So I was bringing my own credibility in a sense. And again, when I brought new ideas at a time when Turkey was continuing to open itself up to the world within the company, it was seen as an opportunity, not as a risk. So that was quite good. And I must say at the time, in most of these countries, which ended up to open up more or less in the 90s, you know, it was fairly easy to start something and be successful because you could just, you just needed to look what had been successful in the us, what had been successful in Europe. And it was a globalizing world. So I thought, you know, chances are it's going to work here. This is how I brought temporary stuff and so on, which didn't exist. I also introduced guarding services. You know, uniform didn't exist. So these things worked. Clearly, I may have missed some opportunities. Some of the biggest successes have been in mobile telephony. I erroneously assumed that the big winners in mobile telephony would be the legacy carriers, but it didn't work out that way.

[James Reed]

You could have set your own one up. We will have regrets like that.

[Livio Manzini]

Maybe.

[James Reed]

What do you think about now though? What would you see as. Do you still look for opportunities from the US or Europe?

[Livio Manzini]

We still do, but it's harder now because everything moves so fast. Technology, communications and there are startups everywhere. I mean, Turkey also has its own startup base.

[James Reed]

Yeah. Information is much more available now.

[Livio Manzini]

Much more.

[James Reed]

You can see what people are doing.

[Livio Manzini]

So. So you need, in a sense, instead of bringing something, we are now at an age where you need to have your own idea, you need to spot an opportunity, you need to invent something yourself. It can be a service, doesn't have to be.

[James Reed]

So how would, how would you be looking to reinvent Bell in this.

[Livio Manzini]

Head to a hundred spotting.

[James Reed]

Have you got anything in mind though?

[Livio Manzini]

One thing that I learned from some of our customers is that there are still what is called white areas in, in the world and also in packaging. So there are some countries which are big countries, population wise, but have not yet, let's say, are just potential. Africa is considered, you know, one of them of those areas and therefore there could be opportunities.

[James Reed]

What would you go and establish there potentially? So you should open a factory.

[Livio Manzini]

Okay.

[James Reed]

Do you have factories in Africa now?

[Livio Manzini]

No, no, no, no, no. We're present in Bulgaria and in Italy.

[James Reed]

Yeah.

[Livio Manzini]

With a, with a factory.

[James Reed]

So you could go and expand.

[Livio Manzini]

Exactly. I mean, Ethiopia, say, is a huge country, 100 million people and very little manufacturing base. And those people also need the same shampoos or deodorants.

[James Reed]

Yeah, they certainly do. And it's a, it's a very interesting country. I've been fortunate enough to visit it.

[Livio Manzini]

Oh, good.

[James Reed]

Recommend you go and have a look. So what about the sort of movement from one generation to the next? What are your thoughts on that? Are you going to continue as a family business?

[Livio Manzini]

Well, exactly. I, I always consider that I took it in trust for the next generation when I took over from my father. And so, yes, I want to give a chance to my children. And my eldest son is working in one of our.

[James Reed]

So he's interested in.

[Livio Manzini]

So he's.

[James Reed]

So he's. He's your sort of likely successor.

[Livio Manzini]

We have three children, so I want to give them a chance to, to take over if they want to, but it cannot be forced. My father never forced me to come back. It was my decision.

[James Reed]

What, what did he do to lure you back?

[Livio Manzini]

Well.

[James Reed]

Because it's not a gift.

[Livio Manzini]

No, I mean, I came back. I came back as I was recruited by Glaxo Pharmaceuticals to be general manager in Turkey. Obviously I was looking for a way back My father helped with the introduction, but then I came to Turkey's general manager of Glaxo, and I had the possibility to have an international career in Glaxos. So after Turkey, go somewhere else. And at some point I decided, with of course, the approval of my wife, to make the jump and quit an international career for joining the family firm. I have no regrets.

[James Reed]

No regrets. That was going to be my next question.

[Livio Manzini]

No regrets.

[James Reed]

So that was a good decision.

[Livio Manzini]

Was a fantastic company.

[James Reed]

Sure, it is a fantastic. So you made that decision. Why are you so comfortable with it? Why do you have no regrets? Why do you think it was a good decision? What is it about running your own business that you.

[Livio Manzini]

Well, I have always been an entrepreneur at heart, so I always wanted to build companies, basically. Yeah, you have it in your. I have it in my blood. I think I'm called a serial entrepreneur. And obviously the family company was. Was the right place where to do that. I mean, when I joined the family.

[James Reed]

You couldn't have done that at Blacks. No, per se. You'd have to convince a lot of people to start something new.

[Livio Manzini]

Exactly. Back when I joined the family firm, I initially spent very little time looking at what was happening already. I did my own things and, okay, most of them worked.

[James Reed]

Most of them. You're ahead of me then. So I think. I think one of the things that my father said to me, you've reminded me of it, is that, you know, a business is a vehicle and you think of it as a vehicle. You can take it any number of directions. You don't have to keep doing what we're doing now. And. And you've illustrated that saying, you know, you started out in the soap business and now you're doing all sorts of different things.

[Livio Manzini]

Exactly.

[James Reed]

And you've built a successful business by starting and trying new things and looking for what? The market.

[Livio Manzini]

But as they say very often, no enterprise is built on dreams. None without. You have to, of course, have a vision. You also have to have.

[James Reed]

I haven't heard that. So no enterprises built on dreams, but none without.

[Livio Manzini]

Exactly. You hadn't heard that? No, I didn't invent it.

[James Reed]

So, no, I like it. So let's explore that a bit. It. So what does that mean to you?

[Livio Manzini]

Well, it means to me, you see, sometimes I have young people, let's say, that come for advice and some, you know, look at my past and say, yeah, I would like to be my own boss. I would like to have my own company and build my own company. And I tell them, okay, do you have a dream. Having your own company is the result of the dream. You don't start by building a company and then deciding what to do. You need to have something in your mind. You need to have spotted something that you are making. Going to make a different hamburger or because you see that the current ones are not good enough.

[James Reed]

I'm just, you know, picking that as.

[Livio Manzini]

An example, just picking that as something.

[James Reed]

You care about, something you care about.

[Livio Manzini]

And you see an opportunity and you say, you know, I'm not satisfied, I think I can do better. And then you start selling this idea to friends and family and it's like you get in love with your idea and building the company is the next step. Maybe, maybe in your garage or whatever. But you have to start with the idea, with the dream, with the. And, and very often money is not involved. I mean you don't set it up because you want to become rich. If you're successful then you make money and making money becomes the measure of the success. But you don't set up to become rich. You set up to make a better hamburger. Yeah, you set up to make a better sock or whatever.

[James Reed]

I think that's really important advice to all would be entrepreneurs because you know, solving problems is what it exactly often about. Is there anything, you said you're born entrepreneur. Is there any advice you'd give to people who have share that feeling, who want to get started? You, you, you've said you have a dream, but what are the practicalities?

[Livio Manzini]

Well, the practicalities is unfortunate in the rest is, is pain. It's a lot of pain. Pain.

[James Reed]

So they prepare for some pain. Well, what pain are you talking about?

[Livio Manzini]

Well, idea. It's 24 7. When you get on an idea, forget about sitting in your office and directing other people. You have to be on the front line day in, day out. That has not changed. So that's the first thing. And the second is that unfortunately sometimes it doesn't work. So you have to give yourself a stop loss.

[James Reed]

So you have to. That's hard to do, isn't it?

[Livio Manzini]

That's very hard to do.

[James Reed]

Kill an idea that you've put so.

[Livio Manzini]

Much energy to be objective enough with yourself to see whether you know it's not working out. Maybe it was too early to help.

[James Reed]

You with that or is it just.

[Livio Manzini]

Yes, it would be good to have somebody help you with that. Having a virtual boards and there are associations. There are associations that do that too.

[James Reed]

Yeah. Because otherwise you know, you can keep going doing the same thing for far too long. Yeah, you Run services. I mean, I'd like to explore this as we come to a close, but you run service businesses and manufacturing businesses. What have you learned from the sort of overlay? Because often people are in one or the other, but you're pretty unique in doing both.

[Livio Manzini]

Well, I don't know how unique it is, but in my case I see a lot of overlaps. That's strange to say. First of all, let me clarify something. We are in manufacturing, but we make two orders. So all our customers are asking tailor jobs from us. We don't produce for stock, put it in shops and wait for people to come and buy its orders because it's intermediary goods. So say Unilever needs aerosol cans, they place an order, we make it the shape they want, we make it with the print they want, etc. And it cannot be sold to somebody else. I'm saying this because in both cases the service part of the offering is perhaps in some cases even more important than the quality because you need to be attentive to the needs of your customer. Every customer is different. Every customer has different requirements, different needs and a different culture. A different approach requires a different level of attention or detail like in services. And this is what makes you or us successful. We have, we're pretty proud that we have developed long standing relationships with their customer that go back to, well in the case of Unilever, eight years, but with others pretty long time. Not because they didn't have an alternative, but because if you are giving them what they want in terms of quality but also service and you leave the journey with them, they don't necessarily need to go and look for something else. And that's happened. We've lost customers and we're making gaining new ones. Very often we gain new ones because they're not happy, not with the quality, but sometimes with the service that they're getting from. From competitors. So the service element becomes so important that service companies, manufacturing have got in that.

[James Reed]

So I see in a way there's an overlap. Brought sort of a lot of service expertise to manufacturing. Have you also brought manufacturing expertise into services?

[Livio Manzini]

I, I try.

[James Reed]

I associate really slick manufacturing with great automation.

[Livio Manzini]

Exactly.

[James Reed]

Efficiency, just in time, inventory, lack of, of waste. You try?

[Livio Manzini]

Yes, I try.

[James Reed]

Is it more difficult to do that in services?

[Livio Manzini]

It's more difficult to get service productivity up than machine productivity.

[James Reed]

That's interesting. It's also difficult to get consistency, isn't it? Because of. I suppose because of the involvement of people.

[Livio Manzini]

Exactly. Yeah.

[James Reed]

Yeah. You can produce a widget over and over and it comes out pretty much the same. But the service delivery, I mean that's, I suppose McDonald's is an exemplar of sort of producing something consistently all around the world. And you know what you're going to get when you walk in. But there are many examples of that.

[Livio Manzini]

Absolutely. And there are. They are very careful about that.

[James Reed]

Yeah. Just to wrap up. I mean obviously climate change is a huge concern for people around the world. You're in manufacturing, there's a lot of policy around net zero that seems to be coming up against pushback because people say that it's increasing energy costs and it's making it impossible for companies to produce things at price competitive way. Where do you think we're going with this and what do you think should happen next?

[Livio Manzini]

It's both a good question and I don't necessarily have an answer. I think climate change and global warming is the biggest threat that we are facing. And we are I think past the level. We can keep global temperatures below this famous 1.5 degree. We have to look at ways to minimize the impact instead of preventing it to adapt again. Adapting and therefore it's. We are in uncharted territory and US administration is going in a totally opposite direction, not caring too much about it. So it's not going to make it any, any simpler. The planet will survive. Planet will change, but it will survive. What we're talking is about the survival of life of human beings. And some parts of the planet will become inhospitable. And so there are going to be massive movements of populations probably. And then we're talking of course about the animal species in the seas and so on who are also, you know, threatened. We now see tropical fish in the Mediterranean and they are seem much more aggressive and they kill off the local ones. As I said, the planet will survive. How are we going to live on this planet? That is that it is what we're talking about. We are also more and more people. The standard of living of people have increased so the consumption of consumer products, packaged goods increase. So we produce more and more trash or post consuming and therefore we also need to address that problem. We are running out of space for landfill. So we have to go past landfill. And we shouldn't be throwing it in nature or in the seas. Even though according to me deep sea fishing does much more harm to the ocean population, fish population, the ocean than, than plastics. But it has to be addressed. We're trying to do our own little bit. We are starting a recycling business for plastic packaging. But Governments have to be more involved. I mean it's a question of fiscal policy and it has to.

[James Reed]

When you say fiscal policy, what do you think they should do?

[Livio Manzini]

Well, I mean, if you want people to use more recycled plastic material, you have to make the virgin plastic material more expensive. People react to that kind of stimulus. If you say you have to use 30% more in your packaging, that is an empty threat. But if you have to pay more when you buy plastic, you have a tax on plastic, virgin plastic, then you make recycled plastic more.

[James Reed]

Has anyone done that? Has anyone introduced that?

[Livio Manzini]

Yeah, apparently they should. But you cannot introduce it just in the uk Then you make.

[James Reed]

No, that's what I was wondering.

[Livio Manzini]

Because it's competitive, has to be coordinated.

[James Reed]

But that hasn't happened.

[Livio Manzini]

I know that is not already happening.

[James Reed]

So this question of coordination has come up more than once.

[Livio Manzini]

Yeah. You cannot rely on the consumer. I mean the consumer will not pay necessarily more. I mean some will, but it will not be a mass movement.

[James Reed]

But then I suppose governments are reluctant to make things more expensive for people when they're already struggling with the cost of living crisis.

[Livio Manzini]

Yeah, that's the whole point. That's the whole point.

[James Reed]

So maybe it's innovation we need to rely on here.

[Livio Manzini]

Yes, there are lots of. There is a lot of research.

[James Reed]

Everything became biodegradable.

[Livio Manzini]

Yeah, yeah. Enzymes. Yeah, there is a lot of research in that. Absolutely likely that you see a future.

[James Reed]

In which we might have totally biodegradable packaging.

[Livio Manzini]

Totally biodegradable or enzymes and other, let's say, processes to degrade the plastic even if it wasn't. Yeah, yeah, there is a lot of.

[James Reed]

Research because I mean there's a lot of garbage around and it would be good if it was recycled and you.

[Livio Manzini]

Know, loading it into a ship and sending it to the other end of the world is not a solution.

[James Reed]

No, no. They have rubbish dump somewhere else. That's what happens a lot, doesn't it?

[Livio Manzini]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

So offshoring of carbon and rubbish, it's not a solution. Okay, Livia. Well, thank you very much for coming and talk to me from Istanbul. I think that we've covered a lot of ground there. I found it fascinating. I'm going to go back to a Roman calendar by myself.

[Livio Manzini]

Let's do it together.

[James Reed]

Let's do it together. I think business should take the lead. I think makes a lot of sense. Sense. But I think trying to work in harmony with nature and the natural world makes complete sense to me in terms of people's well being and energy and that of our Organizations as well. Now I'm going to ask you, I ask you at the end, two questions. I ask everybody.

[Livio Manzini]

Okay.

[James Reed]

And the first question is in. There's a clue on the wall here. What is it that gets you up on a Monday morning, Livio?

[Livio Manzini]

Well, today's a Monday, so this morning it was your podcast. Basically looking for it. Made sure I was awake before 7 this morning.

[James Reed]

Good.

[Livio Manzini]

But apart from that is I'm always connected, so I never really switch off. So the weekend is when I start having, you know, sometimes weird ideas, but ideas and so on. And so I look forward to Monday because that's the moment when I can get my collaborators around me and bounce it off the wall.

[James Reed]

See what they think about your weekend's idea.

[Livio Manzini]

Exactly. What can we do with this?

[James Reed]

Yeah.

[Livio Manzini]

You know, so I look forward to Mondays. Yes, I do love Mondays.

[James Reed]

Oh, I'm pleased to hear that. And I like the idea of weekends being a sort of time for gestation of ideas. And then my last question, which is in, it's in the Italian version of my interview, but why you? Which is behind you there, Olivia, as well as the English one, is one of the fateful 15 interview questions in where do you see yourself in five years time?

[Livio Manzini]

In my case, it's fairly obvious, let's say, because I've told everybody that I want to retire from day to day operations when I turn 70 and I'm 64. So, you know.

[James Reed]

Okay.

[Livio Manzini]

The company will have turned 90 by then. So really my challenge is succeeding in the succession planning and then being more of a mentor and. Okay, I may have some.

[James Reed]

You wouldn't be chairman or I could.

[Livio Manzini]

Be non executive chairman.

[James Reed]

Right, but you want to step back at 70.

[Livio Manzini]

Yes, exactly.

[James Reed]

I wish you total success with that, Livia. Thanks very much.

[Livio Manzini]

But not to stay home and watch tv.

[James Reed]

I suspect you won't be doing that. That's good to hear. Thanks, Livio. That was really interesting.

[Livio Manzini]

Thank you, James. So did you learn something?

[James Reed]

Yeah, I did. Adapt or die. I like that. Well, thanks again for coming in.

[Livio Manzini]

Thank you, James. Much appreciated.

[James Reed]

Thank you, Livio, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reed, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reid, Livio and Bell holdings, all links are in the show notes. See you next time.