33. Surfers Against Sewage: Are we sitting on a public health time bomb? | Giles Bristow

Summary

Podcast Summary: Episode 33 - Surfers Against Sewage: Are We Sitting on a Public Health Time Bomb? | Giles Bristow

Date Released: June 23, 2025
Podcast: James Reed: All About Business
Host: James Reid
Guest: Giles Bristow, CEO of Surfers Against Sewage

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Introduction

In Episode 33 of "James Reed: All About Business," host James Reid welcomes Giles Bristow, the CEO of Surfers Against Sewage, a marine conservation charity dedicated to protecting oceans, rivers, and freshwater from pollution and sewage. The episode delves into the intricate challenges surrounding water pollution, the systemic issues perpetuating environmental degradation, and the grassroots efforts spearheaded by Surfers Against Sewage to instigate meaningful change.

The Root Causes of Ocean Pollution

Giles Bristow opens the discussion by highlighting the toxic treatment of oceans as a primary issue. He emphasizes the imbalance of power where large organizations fail to account for the environmental costs of their operations, leading to overfishing, deep-sea mining, and sewage pollution. Bristow underscores the ocean's critical role in sustaining life, noting, “Every second breath we take is oxygen created by the ocean. We should really call it planet sea, not planet Earth” ([03:21]).

He further explains how pollutants like nuclear waste, industrial chemicals, and microplastics are not merely dispersed in the vastness of the sea but are bioaccumulated by marine life, ultimately entering the human bloodstream. This accumulation poses a significant public health threat, effectively positioning humans as “the canaries in the coal mine” ([04:20]).

The UK's Sewage Infrastructure Crisis

A significant portion of the conversation centers on the UK's declining sewage infrastructure. Giles attributes this crisis to a combination of inadequate investment by privatized water companies, agricultural runoff, and climate change-induced extreme weather events. He states, “We've had massive underinvestment by the water companies” ([09:54]), leading to overwhelmed sewage systems that overflow into natural waterways.

Reid expresses concern over the rapid environmental changes, to which Giles responds by outlining the "perfect storm" of factors contributing to the sewage crisis. He elaborates on how privatization, initiated in the 1990s under Margaret Thatcher, prioritized shareholder dividends over environmental restoration, resulting in insufficient funds for necessary infrastructure improvements ([12:00]).

Surfers Against Sewage's Campaigning Strategies

Surfers Against Sewage operates with a modest team of 54 members but wields substantial influence through a massive community of ocean activists nationwide. Giles discusses their multifaceted approach, which includes organizing protests, paddle outs, community clean-ups, and hosting large events like their upcoming party in St. Agnes on July 5th, which they expect to draw 3,000 attendees ([05:00]).

He emphasizes the importance of giving individuals a sense of agency, enabling them to transform their concern into actionable campaigning. This approach fosters a strong, unified community committed to environmental advocacy.

Systemic Change and Policy Reform

Giles details Surfers Against Sewage's successful lobbying efforts that led to the establishment of an independent Water Commission in the UK. By mobilizing public support and engaging directly with politicians, they pressured the government to acknowledge and address the sewage crisis. He recounts, “We said, right, what you've got to do is have a commission on water,” which resulted in the government's announcement of the commission shortly after their advocacy ([16:07]).

The Water Commission, headed by Sir John Cunliffe, aims to provide comprehensive recommendations for reforming the water industry. Giles expresses cautious optimism, acknowledging that while initial measures are promising, substantial systemic changes are imperative to effectively tackle the crisis ([22:12]).

Global Perspectives and Circular Economy

The conversation shifts to a global context, with Giles referencing successful models like Paris's purification efforts ahead of the Olympics and Denmark's effective waste management systems. He advocates for a "circular economy," where materials like aluminum can be endlessly recycled without degradation. However, he points out the complexities surrounding plastics, given their diverse types and the fossil fuel industry's vested interests in their continued production ([36:00]).

He explains, “In the current economy, aluminum is leaking out all over the place,” contrasting it with the challenges posed by plastic recycling due to its varied forms and the lack of economic incentives for effective recycling.

The Role of Community and Activism

Giles highlights the critical role of community engagement in environmental activism. Surfers Against Sewage empowers individuals through initiatives like citizen science programs, where community members monitor local water quality. This grassroots involvement not only generates valuable data but also galvanizes public action against polluters.

He underscores the importance of authenticity and passion in campaigning, stating, “We built a brand that was based in authenticity. We are all water lovers,” which resonates deeply with their supporters and fosters a strong, committed community.

Future Plans and Optimism

Looking ahead, Giles shares Surfers Against Sewage's ambitious plans to expand their campaigns, address issues like overfishing and biodiversity loss, and engage with the devolved nations of the UK. He remains optimistic about humanity's ability to innovate and reinvent societal structures to achieve sustainability, despite acknowledging the severe challenges ahead.

He concludes with a personal note on his motivation, driven by his love for the ocean and a commitment to leaving a better planet for his twin daughters. “My optimism comes from human beings are incredible ingenious,” he reflects, emphasizing the potential for positive change through collective action ([59:10]).

Conclusion

Episode 33 of "James Reed: All About Business" offers an insightful exploration into the pressing issue of sewage pollution and its broader implications for environmental and public health. Through Giles Bristow's passionate discourse, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the systemic challenges, the importance of community-driven advocacy, and the imperative for substantial policy reforms to safeguard our oceans and water bodies. The episode serves as both a call to action and a source of inspiration for individuals and organizations striving to make a meaningful impact on environmental sustainability.

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For more information about Surfers Against Sewage and their initiatives, visit their website. To support their efforts or join their upcoming events, refer to the show notes provided with the podcast episode.

Transcript

[James Reid]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reid, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. The UK is ranked last in Europe for bathing water quality. With a small team and limited resources, how have a bunch of Surfers from St Agnes in Cornwall got Parliament to listen and then launch a parliamentary commission into England's chemical cocktail of stinking sewage? Joining me today on All About Business is Giles Bristow, CEO of Surfers Against Sewage, a water reform charity that's been around for over three decades now. Coming up, we discuss the dangers of not taking sustainability seriously, how to get the government to sit up and listen, and why community lies at the heart of every charitable brand. Well, today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to welcome Giles Bristow to. To the studio. Giles is the CEO of a fantastic charity that I've been a supporter of for a number of years now called Surfers Against Sewage. And, Giles, thank you. You've come all the way from Cornwall and you've brought a surfboard with you with Cornish sand on it and a mask that demonstrates the need for clean water because you won't want to wear that when you go swimming, and a banner that says Sick of Sewage, which is our new tablecloth for those watching. So thank you for bringing these things along and most importantly, thank you for coming.

[Giles Bristow]

My pleasure.

[James Reid]

Delighted that you're here. We talk about sorting out some pretty big problems.

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

Most importantly, you're a marine conservation organization that's trying to protect the oceans and the rivers and water generally from pollution and sewage. What's the root cause of the problem here and what are we up against?

[Giles Bristow]

Oh, my goodness. What are we up. That's. That is a big question. But I would say, what are we up against? The way we treat the ocean is toxic. That's the way we think about it. So there's an imbalance of power here. There are large organizations that haven't internalized the cost, if you like, of the way they're treating the ocean. So whether we're talking about overfishing, whether we're talking about deep sea mining, whether we're talking about, you know, the banner on the table is about sewage. So the way we treat and dispose of our wastewater or the impacts of climate change, so a lot of these are driven, if you like, at that highest level by big businesses and, you know, an increasing population impacting on the globe. And the seas are vulnerable. They're really, really vulnerable. Every second breath we take is oxygen created by the ocean. More of the earth is sea than it is Land, we should really call it planet sea, not planet Earth. And it's a very vulnerable environment that looks after us. It gives us protein, it regulates the temperature and the salinity of our water, the temperature of the globe. The other thing is, as human beings, we all. We love it. We have this amazing relationship with the sea. It's quite rare to meet someone who doesn't have passion for the ocean and the sea. So a root cause, it's a very systemic set of issues. But it's really the way we treat the ocean isn't right. But as interestingly as individuals, the way we relate to the ocean, though, is still positive and healthy. So there's a kind of strange dichotomy, if you like, there.

[James Reid]

It seems like we still treat the ocean as a dustbin, really.

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah, we do.

[James Reid]

People chuck things in the sea. We do because it's so big, perhaps, and it disappears underwater and people forget about stuff.

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And, you know, we give thanks to people like Jacques Cousteau, who brought it to our TV screens back in the, what was it, 60s and 70s, for the first time, really uncovering what it was like underwater. Just the sheer brilliance and the biodiversity. And then science as well, you know, starting to uncover what's the ocean really means for our very existence. You're right. Out of sight, out of mind. We've dumped nuclear waste in the ocean, industrial chemicals in the ocean. We consistently and constantly think that diluting pollution in the ocean is fine and it will just go away. But the more we learn, the more we realize that that just isn't the case, you know, biodiversity. So animals in the ocean are bioaccumulating, you know, nuclear material forever. Chemicals, plastics, this doesn't stop with them. We ingest this protein. We are all ingesting plastic. Not only from the ocean, not only from fish, through the air we breathe into all sorts of things. But via the ocean, we are accumulating toxins in ourselves. You can test almost any human being. We have microplastics in our blood and we have PFAS foremochemicals in our blood. It's causing all sorts of. Well, we're sitting on a public health time bomb, potentially. Plastics and microplastics probably provide a micro environment for harmful bacteria and viruses to breed and to change. So, I mean, it's the problem stemming from how we treat the ocean is multiple and manifest. So we're dealing with big, wicked, systemic issues. And that's. We exist therefore to try and protect and restore the ocean. Be the voice for the ocean, because surface can search. We're a tiny organization. We're 54 people, principally based in Cornwall, in St Agnes. But we represent a massive movement of what we call ocean activists. So hundreds of thousands of people around the country who care about the ocean deeply, passionately, because they're in love with the ocean and at the same time, you know, feel anger, I guess, in part, and they want to turn that anger into action. They want to campaign with us. So we protest together, we paddle out together in the surf and we party together. We have a ball coming up in St. Agnes on the 5th of July, which is a celebration of our community. We'll have 3,000 people and you're invited, James. Please do come.

[James Reid]

Fantastic. I can't do that day because my wife's having a birthday party.

[Giles Bristow]

Bring the part. Bring the party.

[James Reid]

Sounds great, I think.

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

But that's going to be some surfing involved.

[Giles Bristow]

There will be. There'll be definitely surfing. There'll be. There'll be some surf stars there. We've got some great bands and some DJs, but it really is, for us, it's about people power, it's about community. It's about people joining together and to be the voice of the ocean. The ocean doesn't have its own voice, but because we love it, we are that voice and we speak out for it. We are operating at the intersection of the environmental issues and human health. So where we really major is where the issues affect us when we get in the water, because that's what's particular about us as surfers and swimmers and paddlers and others. But when we get into the water and we're exposed to toxic or harmful chemicals or bacteria, in the case of sewage, we are like the canaries in the coal mine, if you like. Yes. So if we can get ill and we do, you know, constant earaches, sickness, that kind of thing, or worse, if it's chemical pollution. But where we are the canary in the coal mines, we're a signal that the wider environment is under threat. And we see it visually. We've emerged from COVID people have gone back out into their natural environment and loving it. You know, this massive meteoric rise of wild swimming, but also paddle sports. About 17 million people a year in the UK enjoy going into these environments to do paddle sports in some form on a regular basis. That's enormous. Enormous number. We've seen the huge rise of surfing in its popularity. And as we emerged from COVID we went back to places we love, beaches, riverbanks, lakesides, we went, hang on, this doesn't look like we remember it, because we've seen a rapid, particularly in relation to sewage pollution decline in these places because of the effects of sewage and agricultural pollution and other toxins. And in front of our eyes, we're seeing huge degradation of these environments and people were shocked. So that's why it's rapidly. You're saying rapidly.

[James Reid]

Why is that?

[Giles Bristow]

What.

[James Reid]

I mean, what's changed in the last five years?

[Giles Bristow]

So it's, if you like, crossing a tipping point. So we have seen massive underinvestment by the water companies. We've seen the rise of agricultural pollution along the banks of the River Wye chicken farms and this kind of thing. So huge growth in planning permission for agricultural farming that has a direct impact on our rivers. But we've seen rapid and increased development. So a lot of road runoff and houses, you know, this. This means that rain runs off hard surfaces more quickly into rivers, meaning our sewage infrastructure is overwhelmed, and that causes more sewage to go into rivers, lakes and the sea. And we've had climate change, like our climate is changing rapidly. So we've had much wetter, warmer, wetter winters with more ferocious, if you like, downpours, deluges of water. So we've seen that flooding across the uk, far more intense than we've had for years. So those things coming together means that the infrastructure that we have and the planning that we've done for the future has just not kept up with what we need. And at the same time, in particular in the water sector, the privatized nature of that sector has meant that the water companies have prioritized making a profit and creating dividends for shareholders and not invested sufficiently in the environment. So we've seen this kind of a crisis in the environment and a crisis of financing of the infrastructure that we need to see take place. So it's been, if you like, a perfect storm of things that's led to this issue.

[James Reid]

I'm worried that, I mean, because the climate change, you said it's happening fast.

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

That doesn't seem to be anything immediately in the past to stop it.

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

And then we're told we're going to be building a million new homes in the uk, there's a lot of. And that development's going to be made more easy. And, you know, the wider situation is, you know, with the water companies is unresolved. You know, there's. It's not like they've suddenly got an injection of huge amounts of capital, as far as I can see, or that They've got a new approach. So how's an organization like yours going to do anything about a problem as big as that?

[Giles Bristow]

I suppose, I mean, that's a great.

[James Reid]

Question, great spirit, but I mean, I mean, come on, how are we going to really make this change?

[Giles Bristow]

James, that's a really, really, really good question because like, how can 50 people odd from Agnes, I'm thinking 57 you said. Yeah, and we are. And, and you can change the world.

[James Reid]

With 57, but how are you going to do it?

[Giles Bristow]

And we're not aiming for tinkering around the edges either. We're aiming for systemic reform. So when we think of, okay, we have to sort of slightly break up the different issues. But when we think of the crisis, the sewage crisis, what we know is that the current system is broken. It was broken back in the 90s when it was a nationalized system and Margaret Thatcher privatized it because we needed a huge investment, injection of capital to bring very aged Victorian infrastructure up to date. And not a bad job, to be honest. At the beginning, at the very beginning, the sewage infrastructure licenses were given to private companies. We all could own some of that utility investment. And there was a huge new sewage.

[James Reid]

Pipe built in London, I remember.

[Giles Bristow]

Well, that's happening sort of now. What the Thames Tideway project. And that's, that's quite recent but, but back in the day, in the, in the early 90s. So Margaret, Margaret Thatcher, her plan was we could all own some of this utility infrastructure and benefit from its ownership. So I don't know if you remember that the don't tell Sid campaign, you know about British gas prices, popular shareholding. Yeah, exactly. Now at that point, that was a great way to put new, inject a huge, vast amount of capital into our sewage infrastructure. And the government put 5 million pounds, which by then at that time, huge amount of money into environmental investment. Unfortunately, what's happened over time is that those shareholdings have moved. We all sold them. I'd say we, I wasn't quite there at the time, but we sold them. They were sucked up by pension companies and others. And then over time, financial innovation, we saw the rise of securitization and bungee schemes and tax efficient schemes, all these kind of different things. And the investors in our utility infrastructure, which by the way is meant to be like utilitarian, it's meant to be low risk, low, low reward, base rate, you know, ticks along the bottom. You'd love it in your pension because you know where it's going to be, gives you A reliable return, an absolutely reliable return. And it's based on customer bills. We could pretty much know what they are, we know how many people, roughly there will be, so it's highly predictable. But what happened over time is the risk of investing in utilities changed by the nature of the investors that got into the system. So they started to extract more, which slightly increased the risk around the return on those investments as we started to take more out and then debts were. They were geared up, heavily geared up. We see Thames Water now, hugely geared up and now 35 pence in our pound on a customer bill goes to servicing debt or dividends. So that's phenomenal. It's more than a third of the pound we could have put in, which means there's no space for after you pay for running the company, et cetera, and day to day maintenance and IT infrastructure and billing, etc. The amount of money that's available to go into environmental restoration is small. So this.

[James Reid]

So systemic change is required.

[Giles Bristow]

Ah, so we need systemic change now. We are not calling for renationalization, we are calling for systemic change. We are just a bunch of surfers from the west country, right? But we've been leaning in, we've been doing our homework on finance, we've been trying to understand systemic risk, we're trying to understand where the money's going to and who benefits. And at the general election last year, in the run up to the general election, we got a double decker bus, we wrapped it in surfers against sewage logos on the back, it said voters against floaters. And we went and engaged people everywhere, we said, look, this is a major issue, your rivers are dying, there's a crisis, sort it out. And we engaged politicians across the country, they gave us their OR in return for promises to protect the ocean and to sort this mess out effectively. We gave them their votes. And we have stuffed parliament full of pro ocean, Pro Environmental Restoration MPs. They owe their seats to a large extent and many of them because they said they would tackle this situation. So we said, great, after the election, Steve Reid or well, first of all, Keir Starmer on the steps of Downing street, sort of, you know, page one, paragraph one, sentence one was, this is the government's going to sort out this sewage crisis. Then Steve Reed, the Secretary of State for the Environment, said he has two priorities. First one, sort out sewage crisis. The second one, to bring in a circular economy into the uk, which is great because the other area that we're campaigning hard on is plastic pollution and waste. So we Were really delighted with that. And Steve Reed followed that up really rapidly with the water special Measures bill. We had a private briefing along with other NGOs about that bill they were about to announce. And when they told us the measures, we said, well, this is good. It's tightening up. It's putting a bit more of a spotlight on the execs, it's putting them under a bit more pressure, making them a bit more liable for environmental pollution that's going on. Fines could increase and this kind of thing, but it wasn't going to transform the system. And we said, right, what you've got to do is have a commission on water, because we need to air this dirty laundry in public. That's what we were arguing for. The public knows something's wrong, they need to understand just how wrong so we can see just how broken the system is. So long. And the short of it is, two days later, in Putney, Secretary of State announced an independent Water Commission on water. So those 50 people campaigning in Cornwall, with the mandate and reach of hundreds of thousands of supporters and putting that political pressure on, got that water commission. And so since then we've been presenting evidence, both environmental evidence and data and sickness data and all that kind of good stuff, as well as finance data, borrowings, data evidence around CEOs and boards, these privatized water companies, their management and decision making. And sort of, we've been pushing that. Some of that is perverse because it's being driven by profit, not about wider sense of environment, environmental protection. So that commission is about to report literally any day now. And then that'll become the recommendations for government, for the reform of the industry. And governments promised a water industry reform bill.

[James Reid]

So I've got lots of questions arising from that summary. So, firstly, voters against floaters. That's a great slogan. Who thought of it? Was it you or. Where did that come from?

[Giles Bristow]

I don't know. I don't know where that came from. We, we, as you can imagine, when you're dealing with sewage, we spend a lot of time coming up with puns and stuff. And so we do swear quite a lot as well. So I hope your listeners don't mind that. Well, cut the crap, you know, end the shit, show voters against floaters. You know, these are all things that allow people a way in to this problem.

[James Reid]

Yeah, yeah, well, that, that. And so this commission. Yeah, how does that work? Who's. Who's part. Who's leading the commission politically across the.

[Giles Bristow]

Spectrum, it's an independent commissioner, Sir John Cunliff. He's the former Deputy Governor of the bank of England. So he worked with Mark Carney, who I have huge admiration for as someone who's doing a lot on the climate side actually.

[James Reid]

Mark Carney or cif.

[Giles Bristow]

So Mark Carney, now Prime Minister of Canada. Exactly, exactly. And I, you know, and, and I think a really decent, reasonable guy understands that business needs to be tempered somewhat to avoid the externalities, the negative externalities of business. So he brought in tons of regulation around the stock markets and the disclosure around climate effects and things. And Sir John Cunliffe worked with him. So when the identity of the Commissioner, Sir John Cuneiffe was announced, people sucked in air through their teeth. Oh, really? Deputy Governor of the bank of England. How is he going to sort out an environmental problem?

[James Reid]

Fair question.

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah. But to be honest, we said, and I think we're a pretty lone voice, we said, well, hang on, this dude, he understands big business, he understands the drivers of finance, what it means in systemic terms. He understands management and board level decisions and behaviors. So we were quietly quite pleased. And over the time of his commission gathering evidence, we've got to know him a bit. We've met him five or six times. He's come down to St Agnes to see us in person, beats down on the beach with us and meet water users.

[James Reid]

But can he surf?

[Giles Bristow]

No, he can't. And I asked him if he'd like to come for a surf and he did decline, which was a shame. However, but what I realized, talking to him and getting to know him a bit, he's a mountaineer, so he has an affiliation, he has a passion for the natural world. And once we appreciated that, we knew it's a sidestep for him to understand how other people can just love and care for the ocean. He loves and cares about mountains. I do think he's a decent and honorable guy and he's trying to do. And he will try and do the right thing. I'm sure we haven't seen his recommendations.

[James Reid]

Yet, but we need the other side of this. I hope so too. I mean, I'm a scuba diver, I love. All right, so, yeah, but I hope so too. But the UK is a relatively small part of, you know, we've got quite a long coastline, I guess. But yeah, you know, when you look at the world as a whole.

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

I mean what's going on elsewhere is any.

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah. So you're absolutely right. When we move into different issues then, yeah, we are a small polluter in terms of climate. But then we've had Our big climate effect. We've chopped down our trees, we've had our industrialization, we have. We now export our emissions effectively by bringing in, you know, products and services from the rest of the world. So we sense that this is a.

[James Reid]

Movement that's more global now in scope, or is it still fairly local?

[Giles Bristow]

So our movement is national, it's the four corners of the uk, but we're tapping into a broader movement that is global. So almost any poll about concern, the public are worried about climate, they're worried about biodiversity loss, they're worried about our relationship to the natural environment. So we are definitely tapping into a broader worry that exists in humanity, in society, 100%. Where I think we're succeeding, if I can sort of, you know, bit of hubris there, but where I think we're succeeding is we give people something to do to turn their worries and their, or their anger into action. Whether it's protesting with us in a fun and very family friendly way, like the paddle outs around the country that we had last weekend, where we got about 10,000 people out around the country to make lots of noise on the beach and to paddle out with us and to really enjoy that. But it gives people a sense of agency where we feel powerless quite often in the face of climate change or plastic pollution or even sewage pollution. I think we give people some hope because they enter into a community so they feel part of something. And feeling part of something can make you feel more bold and right. I am going to write to my mp, I am going to demand that they join the Surface Against Sewage Cross parliamentary group or I am going to make my voice known and protest outside my water company because I care that they're chucking shit in my river. So I think we give people a sense of hope and agency. We also hope that we are building some form of campaigning capacity across communities. We train people as citizen scientists to test their local water.

[James Reid]

Citizen scientists?

[Giles Bristow]

Citizen scientists, yeah. So to do water quality monitoring.

[James Reid]

People want to do that.

[Giles Bristow]

How do they get in touch with us?

[James Reid]

Where do they go then?

[Giles Bristow]

So go to our, go to our website, have surface against sewage and we have a whole section of the website dedicated to gathering data. We will train you if we can. So there's an annual application, but we will also fund community groups to do their own water quality monitoring and testing. And that's great because it puts the data in our hands. We follow all exactly the same scientific methodology and procedures and laboratories as the Environment Agency do, so they can't complain or, you know, say, oh, you're using different techniques. But what we do do is test more frequently, more often and in the right places where people swim and surf. And what we always find, almost without exception, is that what we find is the water is more polluted than we're told. So that puts data in the citizens hands to then be able to campaign locally. So I think we're tapping into something. We hope that we're tooling people up to give them agency and hope that we're giving people some hope that together we can actually shift things.

[James Reid]

So you've used the word hope a lot. I mean, what are you, what are your hopes this commission might table, you know, what are you hoping that will come out of the commission? That will be good news for all of us.

[Giles Bristow]

So you can guarantee that when the commission reports and the government responds, we will come out and say that's just not good enough because we're campaigners.

[James Reid]

Yeah, quite. Okay. I'd be disappointed if you said, oh, this is all fine in the world because it will clearly work. It'll be a small beginning.

[Giles Bristow]

I suspect that's very likely to be the case. It'll be a small beginning, but failure will look like some tinkering around the edges of some re regulation because that's just not going to cut it.

[James Reid]

That's failure.

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah, that is failure. We have been here before, back in the mid-90s at the last change, actually the introduction of Tony Blair's Labour government was another. That was a very positive moment for the ocean. But this government, and in this moment it has the opportunity to transform this broken system. It staked its claim on growth in the economy as the way to build our way out of a lot of the problems. And what we said is that's true and this is a massive growth opportunity. Investing in UK infrastructure is a huge opportunity for skills, jobs, finance, etc. Etc. Etc. If we can manage it well, regulate it properly, ensure the benefits flow to the right places in society. We need to invest tens of billions of pounds in our Victorian infrastructure if we get it right and the right type of investors are investing. So UK pension funds.

[James Reid]

You mean private sector investors, Surely?

[Giles Bristow]

Private sector investors, but blended with government support of cash. At the moment, government's very short of cash, so we don't think that it can go on the UK PLC balance sheet. Of course not. There's too many other competing demands which are more of a priority 100% NHS, et cetera. But government has a proper role in creating good, solid, watertight legislation and regulation, funding the regulator. So it can do its job properly, bring people to court who are polluting, but provide the wider framework for long term investment. So investors, I speak to investors all the time and they say, do you know what, it's really simple. It's really simple. We just need three things. We need a long signal, we need a vision, we need a strategy for this sector that will clean up the rivers, lakes and seas. Right. If we can have that and have cross party consensus, that's great. We need a legal signal. So don't just say, it can't just be policy, it needs to be enshrined in law. Bit like with the Climate Change Act. That was a world leading, that was a first. Once we had that Climate Change act, business financiers and others could line up behind it and go, there's an opportunity here. So long and legal, and then loud. We absolutely need to trumpet this signal and say, right, the UK is going to fix this sewage crisis. Once you start to do those three things, which sound really simple, and then they're more complex in reality, but once we do that, those interests can line up and we can solve this problem. Because this is just an infrastructure problem. This is not as complex as climate change or biodiversity loss or other much more complex problems. This is within our grasp. And the best thing about watery environments, and as a scuba diver, you might know this, watery environments can bounce back quickly. So if we treat them well, they can be restored rapidly.

[James Reid]

So, Charles, this might be an unfair question. It's going through my mind, so I'm going to ask this thing to you. So if a headhunter was to ring you out tomorrow and say, charles, we've got this job, CEO of a major water company.

[Giles Bristow]

Right? Yeah.

[James Reid]

Would you take it?

[Giles Bristow]

Absolutely. No way. No way. But you could actually do something about.

[James Reid]

It, though why no way, though? Why no way?

[Giles Bristow]

So I love my job. I literally have. Because you love your job.

[James Reid]

All right?

[Giles Bristow]

That's the best job in the country. You could be.

[James Reid]

You could really drive change, surely, as the CEO of a water.

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah, but after sewage, we're moving on. We're working plastic, sewage, climate change, biodiversity loss, overfishing, you know, you name it.

[James Reid]

I appreciate you don't want to leave the job you're in, but.

[Giles Bristow]

No, but, but in addition, the CEO of a water company, what are they responding to? And so that's what we've got to get, right? So at the moment, in this privatized system, they're responding to their shareholders, their debt holders, their. These other forces. Now that's good. And for people who can be motivated and driven by those things, fine. But we've got to make sure it's going in the right direction. Me personally, I'm driven by this community when I'm frequently James, as you can imagine, I mean, with policymakers.

[James Reid]

You are a surfer, aren't you?

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, but I mean with policymakers. And policymakers are forever asking us. Forever asking what? I mean, why they think a bunch of surfers from Cornwall should have the in inverted commas business case to solve this problem. I think they're mad, but. So I say to them, I can't help. They need the help. But I say, I can prompt you to ask the right question questions. I can, I can help you look in the right places. But at the end of the day, what I'm dealing with is a community who could not give a. About the business case. This community loves these places. And the last time I had a meeting with a policymaker when they said, well, so come on, how are we going to solve this? What's going to drive this? And I was like, well, quite frankly, you've got an entire nation here who love their watery places, their rivers, lakes and seas. And because they love them, they want them sorted out. What, what, what other business case can there be?

[James Reid]

Well, it was obviously a vote winner, as you said, and it was. I mean, I remember in the election it was a big issue and people have continued to be very concerned about it and there seems to be the problems obviously persisting as we go into summer.

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

People want to be able to swim safely. And are there any countries you think have really got it right who you look around and say, couldn't we be more like X, Y or zed?

[Giles Bristow]

That is a fascinating question. And I would say there's nowhere that's got everything right, but there are lots of places that got bits of it right. So that's not meant to weasel out of the answer.

[James Reid]

For example. Yeah. Who are you thinking of?

[Giles Bristow]

Okay, so globally, the trend is re municipalization of water infrastructure. So the blending public ownership, is that public? Well, it's a, it's a mix of public and private ownership.

[James Reid]

Right.

[Giles Bristow]

And the reason why that's important is because it comes down to governance. When you look after a water body and you look after the water infrastructure because the water flows through the whole infrastructure, so no one really owns the water. They own the processing of the water. When you govern that water and you have your license holder, so your water company, you have your municipal authority, who says, I'm looking after my citizens. So their public health is important. When you have environmentally NGOs on that board too, and saying, and we're looking after the environment. We're here to represent the environment. When you have community interests who care both about cost, but they also care about their physical environment and the way it feels and access to it as well. When you have those imbalance in a municipal authority, you can create rapid change. So a good example for this is Paris before the Olympics, getting to grips with it and going, oh, my goodness, if we want to be able to show the world that we can run an event and swim in the Seine, we're gonna have to radically reform this system. And they did, you know, they moved very quickly.

[James Reid]

Did they do that?

[Giles Bristow]

Oh, it was a matter of a couple of years or really sort of.

[James Reid]

Shows what's going to be done if you.

[Giles Bristow]

Exactly, yeah. Sort the system out that drives different outcomes. And it became safe enough. Okay. They did have a blip along the way, but it became safe enough to hold swimming events in the same. That's a great model. But then the Danes have got models of really good clean water. I know it's a different size population and this kind of thing, but there's aspects that can be taken from there. There's aspects that can be taken from all sorts of systems. But what's fascinating for me coming back to Margaret Thatcher. This comes all back.

[James Reid]

She made a big impression on you.

[Giles Bristow]

Well, she's setting train wrong or good. Look, I think she was in particular time and context, Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, they were at the kind of birth of sort of new capitalism here. And we had the big bang in the city and we had privatization of utilities and stuff. I remember Margaret had a vision for a different future now that's to be respected. She had visionary.

[James Reid]

She wanted to plant a lot of trees.

[Giles Bristow]

Well, and that. That kind of thing too. Yeah. But in terms of privatization of social goods and public assets, the UK went further than anyone else. The only country in the world the two have gone as far as us was Pinochet's Chile. Now, that was fascinating. Even Ronald Reagan went, oh, this is getting a bit too much. So he backtracked a bit on the project of privatization. So we became a global outlier. And for a number of years it looked like it was all going well, but then we've had this. So it went too risk higher. It went too, too far. We need to swing the dial back. So there's somewhere in my view, this is a personal view, but there's somewhere between Privatization and nationalization, where there's innovation to be had. Innovation in governance, finance, business models, municipalization, it might be. That's one form. Yeah, there's a variety of forms in this middle bit here where we need to experiment. More people are involved. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

[James Reid]

Very interesting. The word campaigning and communities come up a lot. Yeah, I mean, your organization is obviously created or is part of this great community and is very actively campaigning. Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking of other smaller charities. What's your advice to them? You know, how do you get yourself on the map? You know, you've done that spectacularly, successfully. If someone was acting in a different space, are there any sort of pointers that they should think about?

[Giles Bristow]

So we, this year, we're 35 years old, so there's something about that consistency of approach. Since the very beginning. We were established by a small band of pretty disruptive punky kind of surfers from Cornwall who had meetings in their caravans and St. Agnes Village Hall. They were just fed up with surfing in sewage. And I mean. And I. And I was. I have surfed at that age in those kind of waters where on the board you're seeing.

[James Reid]

They're literally floaters.

[Giles Bristow]

Exactly, exactly.

[James Reid]

You have to keep your mouth shut sort of thing.

[Giles Bristow]

Keep your mouth in the old classic, down a can of coke when you come out. You know, whether that does any good or not. Who knows? People got ill and they get ill and they are getting more ill again now, some very seriously. But we built a brand that was based in authenticity. We are all water lovers in Surface Against Sewage and our campaigning, ocean activists, the hundreds of thousands of people around the country all love the water. So at the end of the day, we can speak from a place of this really matters to us. So from passion, but an authentic connection to the water. So I think for anyone campaigning on an issue, that's really important because if you don't have that authenticity, you can see straight through it. And I think that, I don't know, one of the ingredients of our success, I think is that we've been able to mix the shocking. So the gas mask industry, we've got the gas mask on the table here. So that kind of juxtaposition of young people in the water with a gas mask trying to enjoy surfing with that kind of shocking imagery and shock tactics and some quite hard hitting videos and things that we produce, but with playfulness. So our protest stuff are always fun, they're always safe in very inclusive places. So I think we mixed the invitation to invite everyone in, but with a very solid sense of an authentic connection to the water. And that, I think is a part of the ingredients of our success. Also, the truth is there are many factors that lead to an issue being in the front and center. So I mentioned Covid earlier, anger at the water companies. If you have a target, and it's clear that that target isn't being fair or wielding its power in a way that offends people, that galvanizes people too, roughly. There's a number I always have in my head, but roughly 20% of people in the UK care deeply about environmental issues. Then you have a massive slug of people who care a lot, but they just perhaps know a lot less. But you're not going to get them out on the street in the same way just because it's an environmental issue. And so for me, the other bit of the success of Surface Against Sewage is it is that bringing together of human health and the power and that kind of conflict with the environmental issue. And so the challenge I find, or that I think we have as Surface against surgeons in the future is how do we take that same moment we have in relation to sewage now and apply it to more diffuse and incredibly existential issues like climate change?

[James Reid]

So what are your thoughts on that? I mean, that's not obviously straightforward.

[Giles Bristow]

No, it's not. It's not straightforward. It's very, very difficult just to go and shout about climate change. You're just shouting into the air. It doesn't help. You still got to have a target in the climate space. Those targets are hugely powerful and the fundamentals of our modern economy, the fossil fuel producers and others. But for us, the way into tackling climate change, I think, is plastic. So plastic is becoming the justification for the fossil fuel industry of continued need to look for new fossil fuel resources and reserves to exploit it. Because plastic is a necessary product in this time. And that's true to some extent, but not to the extent that we are mining to create plastic. So we're going to campaign hard to reduce unnecessary plastic, take virgin plastic out of the system. We do not need plastic in the way that we are currently producing it, being forced on us by the large fossil fuel producers. So we'll be creating a target there.

[James Reid]

And this isn't coming soon, is it?

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah, I mean, this is well trailed for the.

[James Reid]

No, that's good. No, I'm interested.

[Giles Bristow]

I just watched coming down a lot line. Definitely, because we work literally with thousands of communities across the country that are going plastic free. We call them plastic Free communities and plastic free schools. These are people who are deeply motivated and passionate about the places that they love. And seeing them littered in plastic in lots of places. We're very good at cleaning up. Literally just taking place.

[James Reid]

We have your cut the crap campaign, we have the crap bags collecting rubbish.

[Giles Bristow]

That's right, that's right. At the moment, we have have 21 cleans a day happening on a beach around the UK. So every day, day in, day out, 21. So we're taking plastic out the system. But we look at that plastic and we look at the waste, we audit it to see which brands it's come from.

[James Reid]

Right.

[Giles Bristow]

And then we use that to lobby the big brands to say, you are ultimately responsible for this waste. It's not going into a circular economy. It's not being recycled properly because we found it in the environment. Multiple reasons for this, but ultimately you bear responsibility and then we're going to work our way back up the circulation.

[James Reid]

What do they say?

[Giles Bristow]

Well, we're working very hard to reduce the plastics and we really would like a circular economy. We say, well, really, do you? Because it's possible. But what's happening is the forces acting against us are wanting to ensure that plastic. There's a diversity of types of plastic. Now, that's a real problem for a circular economy, because sorting plastic is very difficult.

[James Reid]

Just for the benefit of our listeners and me.

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

Could you explain what a circular economy is? Because I think I know, but I.

[Giles Bristow]

Want you to say best explained through a can to a Coke can. First of all, that aluminum was mined once bauxite smelted, we create aluminium made into a can in a circular economy, that can, after its use, can be crushed, melted, made back into a can of equal value. No degradation in its componentry. It remains just as good the hundredth time as a can as the first time it was a can. So once you got the can, is that impossible? Yeah, with aluminum. It is.

[James Reid]

It is.

[Giles Bristow]

No, I need to find other.

[James Reid]

You can just recreate the same can.

[Giles Bristow]

Again and again and again and make.

[James Reid]

Instead of chucking it in the verge or whatever, usually.

[Giles Bristow]

Well, exactly. So that's in a circular economy. In the current economy, aluminum is leaking out all over the place through pollution, through littering, but also through process. So we don't have the incentives lined up to make that very worthwhile. That's with aluminum, where it's quite easy, but with plastic it's incredibly difficult. Aluminum, you can literally sort it in a waste, sort it correct, gather it, it has a value. Plastic currently doesn't have that value and that's because there's so many different types of plastic. Because the fossil fuel industry wants us to keep extracting more oil and gas to create more plastic. So a circular economy. We're a long way away from it. And unfortunately over half of our plastic at the moment gets shipped off to Asia for very homespun cottage industry recycling. So it's highly toxic, massively environmentally polluting. But that's what we consider when we put our recycling into the recycling waste. Unfortunately, that's a lot of our plastic is going off to do that. But the other thing is it can usually be recycled once into a lower value. Good. And then second time it can't be recycled. So all dead dinosaurs in those fossil fuels get used, sucked up, used once, protests and then it's gone. Fossil fuels are way too valuable to be burnt or thrown away. You know, we're going to need them. We're going to need them for greases and components and medicines and all sorts of things into the future. So to be wasting them like we are at the moment with all the climate impacts and everything else too. So it's tragedy.

[James Reid]

Is plastic largely replaceable? I mean, do you think there's alternatives to plastic or there's recyclable plastic? Is there? What, what is the river? We're not using plastic because it seems to be so ubiquitous in packaging. Yeah, endlessly. I mean, I don't need all this plastic, but it seems to be there.

[Giles Bristow]

It is, you're right. It's absolutely ubiquitous. It's everywhere. Oh, and. And now it's ubiquitous in our environment. We're probably breathing in microplastics right now and they're going crossing our lungs and into our bloodstream right now. So plastic has become absolutely ubiquitous. But in products. Yeah, there's substitution. I mean, we've innovated our way through all sorts of things. There's a lot of unnecessary plastic and we are getting rid of those single use items. You know, the slowly working their way through a schedule of single use items. The stirrers and the plates and the forks and that kind of thing. But there's a load of other stuff in packaging. You know, one of the first pioneers around banning plastic was Kenya. Just saying we're not going to have a plastic bag overnight didn't bust the economy at all. Plastic bags came out and plastic bags are no longer blowing across, you know, the Masai Mara and polluting. And so we can do this. We just need to identify the problem, put the incentives in place properly as well as look at how we change consumer behavior.

[James Reid]

So they ban them. Kenya banned plastic bags. Did it?

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

So why can't other people do that? I mean, that seemed to work. You're saying I have other types of bad guys.

[Giles Bristow]

I'm a campaigner. I would tell you this, but the reason why we don't have such stretching environmental provisions like that is because of the strength of the lobbyists on the other side.

[James Reid]

Okay.

[Giles Bristow]

Simple as that.

[James Reid]

Lobbying is something I want to talk to you about.

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

Because I mean you obviously do your fair share of lobbying. You said on the other side. Yeah. You're transparent. How does that work? I mean, what you said, you sit down sometimes with policymakers. How do you get into those rooms? And how does that work?

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

And does it make a difference?

[Giles Bristow]

I think it does make a difference. We tend to think of systems and organizations as having their own personality. We don't. We think of them as these edifices, these places. They're nothing other than made of people. So if you can get access to those people and then if you can have a discussion as two human beings, we can change each other's minds. So that's where I always start from that place.

[James Reid]

So what you do go to MPs, surgeries and things or do you get.

[Giles Bristow]

Your supporters to do? Supporters and others. So how do we have access? I think it's because there's a recognition in political circles that the public at large across about these issues, they really, I mean they really, I'm going to say cross. They are angry about sewage pollution, they are angry about plastic pollution. So the public, if we're well connected and genuinely and authentically representing the public on their behalf, then we have a reach into Parliament for them. But we have, because we have their mandate. And that is something politicians understand because it's the same currency they work in. They're only in Parliament if they've got the mandate of the people to be there. So we find, and I don't overblow this at all, like it's not like you just walk up and knock on my.

[James Reid]

Pretend you're explaining.

[Giles Bristow]

But it, but it, but it is almost as simple as when we've had an effective campaign and protest and people have let their MPs know, then we invited in for a discussion because policymakers and mps and parliamentarians know that we're representing people. It's not just because we walk in, but it's. They've also been getting the emails and they get in the phone calls and they come to the Surgery. And so it's a whole collection of stuff that has to come together but it builds up to a platform.

[James Reid]

But has that all that effort actually delivered any meaningful change from your point of view?

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah, that's a really good question. We can only measure it by the health of our rivers, lakes and sea. Today things are getting worse. But these levers of policy and finance and big business, they take a while to get into.

[James Reid]

And you're still putting faith into the process.

[Giles Bristow]

Yes. In relation to sewage, in relation to climate, I think we're going in the wrong direction. In relation to plastic pollution, we are projected to double the amount of plastic going into the planet by 2050. I mean this is phenomenal given how polluted.

[James Reid]

Double the amount of plastic. I mean I'm. I don't mind telling Our listeners I'm 62 years old. Yeah, this has all happened in my lifetime in the last 50 years. All this plastic crap everywhere.

[Giles Bristow]

That's right.

[James Reid]

I mean there wasn't plastic around everywhere when I was a kid and now it's all over the place. And you're saying it's doubling in the.

[Giles Bristow]

Next 50 years if we do nothing about it.

[James Reid]

Which is deeply shocking to me because it's definitely wrecked large swathes of the planet. I mean you go in places and you see plastic blowing around in the trees and.

[Giles Bristow]

And I used to work a lot in India.

[James Reid]

Well that's the place I was actually thinking, yeah, I've been there recently. It's plastic everywhere. You see cows picking their way through plastic.

[Giles Bristow]

And the beach in Mumbai is 12 foot under dense plastic. The one of the world's largest landfill sites is just outside Mumbai permanently on fire with because of the gas is being released by the rotting stuff and it's burning the plastic toxic fumes. I mean it's just. So this is plastic is really. Yeah, big problem with my really optimistic hat on James.

[James Reid]

Well, you're like an entrepreneur here, which I really admire because you're relentlessly optimistic and trying to solve.

[Giles Bristow]

So I'll give this problem. This is good.

[James Reid]

I mean I want to encourage that generally because you know there are a lot of problems we see and we've got to do something about them.

[Giles Bristow]

I have to be optimistic because it can be very, very, very dark if we think about the future for humanity and the future of our planet when we look at the environmental indicators. So what I read on a daily basis is soul destroying. It's gut wrenching. And I've got two, I've got twin daughters, they are 12 and they are Going to inherit an absolutely broken planet. Some of my optimism comes from the fact that they ask the right questions. Dad, why is this like this? And it's almost like that. And we adopt that naive spirit of it doesn't mean to be like this in your lifetime. James, you said there's plastic everywhere. This was a new system. The plastic didn't exist before we created it. We innovated it. We weren't aware of. Well we collectively weren't aware of the impact that production of plastic was having on the planet. Now we know sustainability should be the driver for a massive amount of growth in human well being and the planet. Like we can all benefit from new industry, new technologies, new processes, new governance forms. There is a rebirth of humanity that can happen based on tackling these issues. So my optimism comes from human beings are incredible ingenious and you know, necessity is the mother of invention and we can reinvent our society in a much more sustainable way that allows us to relate to the planet in a much more positive way and relate to each other in. In a much more positive way. So, so I am optimistic but I think we're gonna go through some terrible, terrible times before we get there.

[James Reid]

Well, I want to sign up to your anti plastic campaign.

[Giles Bristow]

Great.

[James Reid]

Right now because I hate plastic. I know it's necessary sometimes, but it's cause you know, really mess everywhere. Yeah, but what about other methods? You know, what about Just Stop Oil? What do you think about there activities? Because yeah, they're in the same space as an organization, they deploy different methods. What do you think about that?

[Giles Bristow]

Quite often disruption is what is required and I think Just Stop Oil is disruptive and have been disruptive.

[James Reid]

Well people know about them.

[Giles Bristow]

People know about it and cause people to think and cause people to get cross with them but they then know about them. So XR is another organization that caused an awful lot of distinction. Distinction rebellion. Yeah, yeah now but they sort of.

[James Reid]

Gone quiet or respectable or something. What's happened with their disruption?

[Giles Bristow]

I mean. Yes, you're absolutely right. I said the truth is I don't really know where XR are at now. Extinction rebellion. But I think for two years they literally stopped us in our tracks in London and other places. It felt like oh are we on this tipping point, you know where people were literally gluing themselves to Trafalgar Square and the traffic was stopped.

[James Reid]

I suppose you can glued to so many things before you.

[Giles Bristow]

Oh that's right, skin left. That's totally true. But also the response from government was to crack down on Environmental campaigning, big time. So a lot of that nature. Of that nature, yeah, yeah.

[James Reid]

I mean, it's very annoying to Londoners trying to go about this business.

[Giles Bristow]

I know, I love that.

[James Reid]

I say that to you as a guest from Cornwall.

[Giles Bristow]

No, I know, exactly.

[James Reid]

But go on.

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

So I think there's some place for this 100.

[Giles Bristow]

So when I think back to our origin story, surface against. They were punky disruptors acting from the outside, saying this isn't good enough and driving a wedge into the status quo in theoretical terms. So in the kind of campaigning theory, what we're all trying to do the whole time is do something called shifting the Overton window. Now, this is a theory, shifting the Overton window.

[James Reid]

Don't know this theory. I want to know it.

[Giles Bristow]

It's really basic, but it's basically, what window are we looking through on a problem and then as we think about the solutions, what is the acceptable response? So the shifting the window metaphor is, if we look at climate change, is an adequate response just to electrify all cars. But the campaigners are saying the just stop oil. And others are saying, no, no, no, no, we've actually got to stop oil extraction here, otherwise we are doomed. So their campaign shifts. What is the adequate response from, oh, a few more EV through to right, the uk you need to bat. We need no more new extraction licenses in the North Sea, because that's the only way we can tackle climate. So successful campaign is shifting that window.

[James Reid]

Why is it called Overton? Is that someone.

[Giles Bristow]

I think it was the chap who came up with it, you know, sort of theorist.

[James Reid]

So it's about changing people's sort of mindset.

[Giles Bristow]

It is, but also moving in many respects from end of pipe solutions. Oh, there's a thing. Let's clean it up, up to a systemic response. Ah, let's get to that root cause. This shouldn't be the way. Let's tackle this differently, let's drive the system in a different way, let's look for different outcomes. So as campaigners, that's what we're always trying to do. So I have huge respect for just Stop Oil and Extinction Rebellion and others. I've been an extinction rebellionist myself, joined a lot of those protests and marches because at the time it felt like the only rational thing I could do to get my voice publicly with others heard. Joining Surfers Against Sewage, I have a similar sense of that. But we're a charity, we're regulated by the Charity Commission. We would never do anything illegal, we would never do anything that would jeopardize your status. We jeopardize our status. But also we, I think we'd lose part of the brand and part of what makes us attractive. So I would. We would never do anything like that. But we have done things that are on the edge. Like last year we created a brilliant, I would say a blink campaigning video and we projected it it at midnight onto the Houses of Parliament. All about. We're watching you. You've promised to sort this switch crisis out. We projected a film, we filmed the film.

[James Reid]

Yeah, I really thought that was good.

[Giles Bristow]

And, and you know, technically that was anti a bylaw of Westminster and yeah.

[James Reid]

I was going to ask you how you do that. So you can't tell me.

[Giles Bristow]

Well, I can tell you as much as you just got to have good friends.

[James Reid]

A lot of people want to project things on our department. Listen, probably when we switch these.

[Giles Bristow]

These microphones are far tell you jokes but okay, but no but that sort of thing is a lot of fun. It galvanizes our supporters, people love it and we hope we cause no damage. We definitely would never want to cause, you know, but want to inspire people that, you know, campaigning is fun and creative.

[James Reid]

So you, you have to be creative in terms of getting your message across clearly.

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

So what about. I mean we've talked about businesses that pollute and I mean there are businesses that are trying to improve their performance on there. And you've worked with some, I believe.

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah, absolutely.

[James Reid]

Could you give me an example of what you've done and because I want to encourage other listeners who are in business to think about these issues and perhaps change their approach where possible, you know, if appropriate. What examples might you be able to share?

[Giles Bristow]

I think there are all sorts of examples from the big businesses. So there are businesses who are trying to understand their impact and then trying to build that into their business model. So we're thinking of the unilevers and this kind of thing. They say we are setting global goals to reduce our environmental.

[James Reid]

So Unilever, a huge company, produces a.

[Giles Bristow]

Lot of products, fast moving consumer goods, packaging and loads of packaging and this kind of thing.

[James Reid]

Well, so what are they doing and what have you done with them?

[Giles Bristow]

So when I was at Forum for the Future, so another organization, we worked with them on strategy. So it was very much about how you inspired the business that change is necessary and doable and to set targets that perhaps didn't feel doable but were aspirational to drive business innovation and change. Myself and lots of others at Forum for the Future worked with the likes of Unilever and many other businesses to try to create that case and push and encourage senior people. Paul Polman was the champion. Him and he got it, he understood it. Paul very much knew that if they did nothing, Unilever's own business model was going to eat up Unilever. You can't keep extracting and polluting. In expecting this to go on forever, you're going to lose the public license to operate. At some point you're going to run up against environmental laws. But also so you know the future just won't allow you, the planet won't allow you. So therefore you've got to move. Now that's enlightened self interest of a business and there are very few businesses that are genuinely like that. But we can think of some great ones like Patagonia and others in your. The floor. Sorry, not in your, not in yours at all. But the, the floor. I can now can't remember what they're called. They make a lot of the floors we have in offices. So rather than if you spill a cup of coffee and you damage your floor, having to rip the whole, you have floor tiles. It's that kind of looking at business models for sustainability and going, ah, if we want to have a lower impact, we've got to design differently. So we've worked with lots of businesses like that. At Surface Against Sewage, we work with lots of small and medium inside enterprises that are challenges. So doing things like taking old waste, discarded fishing nets extracted from the ocean gathered by local fishermen, turning that into a waste stream that is valuable and making sunglasses or other recycled plastic products, that's the kind of thing we need to both try and power down the big bad businesses that are doing things that are ultimately unsustainable and then power up and support businesses that can be part of a future economy. And then in the middle there are most businesses, there's a huge ramp of most business that has a lot of environmental impact but is providing jobs and powering our economy. And so we need to get that bit right in the middle. But where people are polluting in knowledge of the effect that they're having on the planet and lobbying against environmentalists and the public, I think that's where we have to really quickly sort that out because that's just not right. Is that a big problem?

[James Reid]

I mean, do you think there are lots of companies actively in that space?

[Giles Bristow]

Yes, I think there are very few businesses that triple bottom line account to account for their, you know, profit and loss, plus the environmental profit and loss and social. The More businesses do that, the more they understand their impacts and then go, oh, perhaps we should do something about this. Triple accounting, triple bottom line.

[James Reid]

Triple bottom line, yeah, that's what we call it. Well, that's good. Just stepping back for a moment and looking at your own organization, Surfers against sas. Yeah, I mean, it's sort of one's a military organization.

[Giles Bristow]

Often when I am asked by someone for my email address and I'm spelling it out to them on the phone, they go, oh, you're in the sas? No, no, no, no.

[James Reid]

It's quite clever in a way. I think they're both strong brands, they're short. And you talked about the creating this community. Is community and brand overlaid for you? Is that the. How do you think about the brand?

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah, that's a. That's a really good question. And I think, yeah, I think they really are interwoven, not even though they are mutually dependent. I think there's something about surfing that is attractive. It is that kind of disruptor, outsider enjoying nature, doing something sporting and athletic. There's something very kind of. And the culture around surfing has always been attractive. I think when you take that and build a community of purpose around it, those two things can be really, really powerful. I would say the majority of our supporters and members aren't surfers, but they're attracted to the brand. They love the ocean and it's the association with that brand that is positive, creative, that's really, really good and very, very powerful. So the community element, for me, you couldn't lose one or the other. So a nurturing both is most of my money.

[James Reid]

I must ask you this because it's sort of on my mind, but have these new developments in technology changed your approach to campaigning or reaching people? Or have you done anything creative?

[Giles Bristow]

I mean, we use a lot of visual media, we projecting on the House of Commons, good projections and that kind of thing. We've projected onto the White Cliffs of Dover plastic pollution images and things like that. So bringing together disruptive and interesting creative visuals with music and other artistic forms, that is powerful and speaks to the soul. That's when we really connect with people. Because you actually, we're trying to connect with those values that people hold dear, aren't they? And your event recently, Earth Rays now, that was powerful as well. Because you use creative forms to tap into us as human beings, not just tell us stuff, because you used comedy, used music, used light and sound to make us feel something. So that's what we're trying to do.

[James Reid]

Thank you for mentioning Earth.

[Giles Bristow]

Because this.

[James Reid]

Is a campaign that we're doing with Big Give, a charity we want to raise for World Earth Day next year to raise a lot more money for environmental and nature charities that work all around the world. So watch this space. I mean, for listeners, we're looking for some big sponsors, we're looking for a good streamer and we're looking for some great stars to perform. Because I think that connection of music, everyone, rather, everyone loves the sea. Everyone loves music.

[Giles Bristow]

Absolutely.

[James Reid]

Different types of music. Yeah. And changes what types of weather on the ocean. I suspect when you surface, like it's.

[Giles Bristow]

Stormy, but I love them. So you've been asking me a lot of questions, questions about what it's like to be a campaigner and to have bold and ambitious, you know, ambition that maybe is beyond our reach. But I think you're doing something similar with Earth Rays, which is amazing. Which is saying we absolutely need to channel more money into the environment because at the moment about 8% of philanthropy, so of capital, philanthropy is a small part. And then 8% of that small part goes to the environment. Majority of that goes into single species issues. So again, what is available for other organizations, Very small. So what you're doing in setting a stall out and saying, hey, we can go about this in a different way and we must, absolutely must raise money for the environment in a different way that connects people to it. I personally, you know, it's amazing.

[James Reid]

I feel the same way as you. I think that's there's a great groundswell of support from people for that. Yeah, People want that to happen. Happen. And if we can create a, a way of enabling that through match funding with the big give and a big campaign called Earth Rays, then let's give it a shot. I mean, like you, I want to try.

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

And see if it works and we can make a difference. So that's our campaign for next year. Have you got anything you want to share? Coming up? You mentioned your party in St. Agnes on the 5th of July.

[Giles Bristow]

Yeah. So do do do do. So yeah, we have parties and Agnes, 5th of July. We've got got space for 3,000 people, so it'd be quite epic.

[James Reid]

You can sign up for that.

[Giles Bristow]

You can sign up for it right now. Tickets are available and we, we would love to welcome anybody and everybody. You don't have to be a surfer, you don't have to be an SAS member. If you love the ocean and you want to celebrate the ocean with a bunch of other people who love the ocean, come and join us. So 5th of July is Agnes Hedland. Sign up on the. On our website and we'd love to welcome you. We've got campaigning things going on in the rest of the year, so we will be doing a lot around the next set of legislation that comes out of the recommendations of the Water Commission. We're going to be doing some big, very public protesting around plastic towards the end of the year, so we're going to do some big cleans and turn that into protests as well, which will be fun and creative. So they're going to be really, really good fun. And then we're going to be moving through elections in the devolved nations over the next couple of years. So Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland. And we probably might whip out the double decker bus again. And we'll be doing tours and when we go on tour, it's about music, it's about partying and paddling out together and protesting and engaging politically. So look out for us. Come and join us. Yeah, that's going to be good fun.

[James Reid]

That sounds great. Well, thank you so much. I'm looking forward to reading your comments on the commission's findings.

[Giles Bristow]

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[James Reid]

That's not enough.

[Giles Bristow]

Exactly.

[James Reid]

I applaud what you're doing and I'm inspired by your enthusiasm and optimism. Optimism, which is really encouraging. So, Giles, I always ask two questions at the end and my first question, there's a clue on the wall here, but what is it that gets you up on a Monday morning?

[Giles Bristow]

Oh, gosh. I mean, apart from the very obvious thing that I absolutely love my job, but the reason I love my job is our mission is the right mission right now. It's current, it's public, I. I talk to so many people about it in the supermarket, to the. You name it. Wherever I am, if I'm wearing this T shirt, people come up to me and talk to me.

[James Reid]

Your T shirt for everyone.

[Giles Bristow]

All right, surfers again, Sewage.

[James Reid]

Very smart.

[Giles Bristow]

Thank you. So, I love my job, but I love my job because the mission is right. I have a fantastic team. I honestly, I have a brilliant, brilliant team. They are fun, they are creative, they're young and spirited and optimistic and at the same time, hugely driven. So, I mean, I literally, I could not ask for a better set of people to work with. I have a brilliant board of trustees as well, who are hugely committed and right behind the mission and will do anything to support it. But add that up, that's probably 70 people altogether. But what I really love is this huge movement of ocean activists around the country who support us with individual membership, but they come out at paddle outs, they join us on the street when we go do protests, they do the litter picking and cleaning with us and they write to their MPs and, and, and, and being part of that is full of hope and joy. And so that, that's. Yeah. So I love my Mondays for all of those reasons.

[James Reid]

That's fantastic. And my last question, which is an interview question from my book, why you? But is where do you see yourself in five years time?

[Giles Bristow]

Oh, gosh. Well, I hope still surfing, although my knees are getting creaky. So where do I see myself? I mean, I very much hope to still be with Surfers Against Sewage, having won some big things and we're moving on and we're moving through in some perhaps more difficult spaces like overfishing, like biodiversity loss, like climate change. And I hope that we can see a trajectory to winning those. So if I'm doing that in five years, I'll be well happy and we'll.

[James Reid]

Be making progress by the sound.

[Giles Bristow]

That's right.

[James Reid]

Thanks, Charles. Thanks very much for coming in to talk to me today. It's been a great pleasure for me and I'm gonna go swimming as soon as I can on the basis of what you'd say.

[Giles Bristow]

Well, thank you, James. And again, I just want to thank you for your support for Surfs Against Sewage. It means so much. So, yeah, thank you. Pleasure.

[James Reid]

Thank you very much. Thank you, Giles, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reid, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reid, Giles and Surfers Against Sewage, all links are in the show notes and if you enjoyed this episode and would like to listen to more, please press the follow button. See you next time.