34. The importance of being idle: A serious case for doing less | Tom Hodgkinson

Summary

Podcast Summary: James Reed: All About Business – Episode 34: The Importance of Being Idle with Tom Hodgkinson

Release Date: June 30, 2025

In Episode 34 of "James Reed: All About Business", host James Reed engages in a profound conversation with Tom Hodgkinson, the founder and editor-in-chief of Idler Magazine. The episode delves into the philosophy of idling, contrasting it with the prevailing hustle culture, and explores how embracing idleness can lead to a more fulfilling personal and professional life.

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1. Introduction to Idling Philosophy

James Reed sets the stage by questioning the necessity of maximizing productivity in a world where nearly half of small business owners experience burnout. He introduces Tom Hodgkinson, describing him as an advocate for idleness and highlighting his roles as an entrepreneur, publisher, and educator.

Key Quote:

"James Reed: ...is maximizing productivity really the only way to build a successful business?"
(00:00)

2. Idling vs. Laziness

The conversation begins with a fundamental question: Is idling the same as being lazy? Tom clarifies that idling is a deliberate choice to slow down and reclaim control over one's time, distinguishing it from mere laziness.

Key Quote:

"Tom Hodgkinson: ...idling could mean something like doing your own thing, or idling could mean a kind of a freedom to do something that you want to do."
(01:44)

3. The Paradox of Idling and Busyness

Tom discusses the paradox where embracing idleness can sometimes lead to increased busyness. He emphasizes the importance of being "quite busy, not too busy," advocating for a balanced approach to work.

Key Quote:

"Tom Hodgkinson: But quite busy, not too busy."
(02:43)

4. Historical Perspectives on Work and Leisure

The dialogue shifts to historical insights, exploring how ancient cultures incorporated idling through days off, festivals, and religious observances. Tom references how practices like prayer and contemplation are forms of idling that help mitigate anxiety and societal pressures.

Key Quote:

"Tom Hodgkinson: ...praying is definitely a form of idling, absolutely."
(03:21)

5. Work Ethic and Its Evolution

Tom reflects on the concept of work, differentiating it from play and discussing how the work ethic has evolved, particularly under the influence of the Puritans. He critiques the elevation of work to a near-religious status, contrasting it with more balanced historical practices.

Key Quote:

"Tom Hodgkinson: ...they elevated work and they made it close to kind of godliness."
(17:57)

6. Impact of the Industrial Revolution and Modern Technology

The conversation touches on the Industrial Revolution's role in extending working hours through technological advancements. Tom draws parallels to the current AI revolution, expressing skepticism about whether new technologies will truly reduce work hours or simply exacerbate the work ethic.

Key Quote:

"Tom Hodgkinson: ...the working day got longer."
(20:08)

7. Idling and Entrepreneurship

Addressing entrepreneurs, Tom asserts that it's possible to be a successful CEO while embracing idleness. He emphasizes that taking breaks and managing time efficiently can lead to better decision-making and creativity.

Key Quote:

"Tom Hodgkinson: ...CEOs could all slow down a bit because... you don't make good decisions when you're tired."
(26:30)

8. Tom Hodgkinson’s Entrepreneurial Journey

Tom recounts his transition from traditional journalism to founding Idler Magazine. He shares challenges faced while running a bookshop, including managing finances, handling staff, and securing funding. These experiences led him to author "Business for Bohemians", offering practical advice to aspiring entrepreneurs.

Key Quote:

"Tom Hodgkinson: ...we should have employed a very, very good bookkeeper and Financial manager before I was doing it."
(39:59)

9. Idler Retreats and Current Initiatives

Tom describes Idler Retreats, immersive experiences combining philosophy, leisure activities, and community building. These retreats are designed to provide participants with opportunities to relax, learn, and connect with like-minded individuals.

Key Quote:

"Tom Hodgkinson: ...we took a group to Spain, to Andalusia recently... sing alongs. We all eat together."
(44:18)

10. Lessons for Aspiring Entrepreneurs

Drawing from his experiences, Tom offers three critical lessons for those starting a business:

1. Managing People: Understanding that managing staff is a distinct skill separate from other business functions.
2. Financial Acumen: Emphasizing the importance of maintaining accurate financial records and seeking professional accounting help.
3. Securing Funding: Highlighting the necessity of adequate funding and being open to innovative financing methods like crowdfunding.

Key Quote:

"Tom Hodgkinson: People. Tax and vat. Right, Tax and accounting. That whole area."
(35:34)

11. Addressing Criticisms of Idling

Tom tackles the misconception that idling is exclusive to the wealthy, asserting that idling is accessible to anyone willing to manage their time wisely. He rejects the notion that idling is a luxury, emphasizing that it’s about thoughtfully organizing one's lifestyle.

Key Quote:

"Tom Hodgkinson: Idling is free. Anyone can be idle. You know, it's a question of taking control of your time..."
(48:18)

12. Final Thoughts and Future Plans

In the concluding segment, Tom shares his motivation for the future, aspiring to grow Idler Magazine's subscriber base and continue promoting the idling philosophy. He also hints at his upcoming book, "How to Live Like a Stoic", scheduled for release in February 2026.

Key Quote:

"Tom Hodgkinson: ...hopefully just carry on. Hopefully we'll be able to survive one that's, you know, that's an achievement but also grow the business..."
(55:33)

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Key Takeaways

• Idling vs. Laziness: Idling is a conscious choice to prioritize leisure and personal well-being over relentless productivity.
• Historical Insights: Ancient practices of leisure can inform modern approaches to balancing work and life.
• Entrepreneurial Balance: Successful business leaders can incorporate idling to enhance creativity and decision-making.
• Practical Business Lessons: Effective people management, financial literacy, and securing proper funding are crucial for sustaining a business.
• Accessibility of Idling: Idling is not an exclusive privilege but a manageable lifestyle choice achievable through strategic time management.

Notable Quotes by Timestamp

• 00:00 – James Reed questions the sole emphasis on productivity in business success.
• 01:44 – Tom Hodgkinson distinguishes idling from laziness, emphasizing freedom and personal choice.
• 03:21 – Tom highlights prayer and contemplation as forms of idling that alleviate societal pressures.
• 17:57 – Discussion on how work was elevated to a near-religious status by the Puritans.
• 26:30 – Tom argues that CEOs can incorporate idling to improve decision-making and creativity.
• 35:34 – Tom identifies people management, financial acumen, and funding as key challenges for entrepreneurs.
• 48:18 – Tom refutes the notion that idling is a luxury, asserting its accessibility to all.
• 55:33 – Tom outlines his vision for Idler Magazine’s growth and his upcoming book on Stoicism.

Conclusion

Episode 34 of "James Reed: All About Business" offers a compelling exploration of the idling philosophy, presenting it as a viable alternative to the dominant hustle culture. Through Tom Hodgkinson's insights and personal experiences, listeners are encouraged to reevaluate their relationship with work, prioritize leisure, and adopt a more balanced approach to business and life.

For more information on Tom Hodgkinson and Idler initiatives, visit idler.co.uk.

Transcript

[James Reed]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. In a world where hustle culture is the norm and 45% of small business owners are suffering from burnout, is maximizing productivity really the only way to build a successful business? Today's guest, Tom Hodgkinson, believes idleness is key to creating a life and business that's truly fulfilling. He's the founder and editor in chief of the Idler magazine, where he encourages his readers to slow down, have fun, and live well. In this episode, we discuss the idler philosophy, how to turn your passion into a business, and why the world's most successful entrepreneurs embrace idleness. I'm really delighted to welcome Tom Hodgkinson. Tom is going to have a lot to say about the subject of idling. He's written several books on the theme. One called how to Be Idle, another the Idle Parent. Tom is an avowed self avowed anarchist. I think he's the first anarchist on our show. And he's also an entrepreneur, publisher, and he runs an academy, the Idler Academy, with his partner, Victoria. So idling is your big theme you're wearing. For those who can't see, a T shirt with a wonderful red snail on it. Tom, the question on my mind that sort of just, I can't get out of my head to start with. I want to understand this philosophy, but the question on my mind is, is there a difference between idling, as you call it, and just being lazy?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Frankly, there are loads of synonyms for lazing around, loafing, lollygagging, and so on. But I felt that idling as a word or idler had positive feeling about it. Actually. It's, it's a. That you take, you know, you don't want to be caught up in the rat race full time. You want to kind of slow down a bit. You want to take some control over your time. And idling could mean something like doing your own thing, or idling could mean a kind of a freedom to do something that you want to do. So in a paradoxical way, as you know, in kind of embracing idling, people often become quite busy. In my case, I didn't really feel I kind of suited the more conventional world of work. So my option was to become some sort of a freelancer or start my own business. Well, of course, both of those things also have their pressures and worries and you might end up, you know, working pretty hard.

[James Reed]

But for me, in pursuit of idleness, you have become busy. Is this quite busy?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

But quite busy, not too busy.

[James Reed]

When I think of the word idling, you see little signs around saying no idling, but I think that's to do with engines running in the street. But an engine that's idling is about to go forward, isn't it?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

It's about. It can go forward, it's taking a rest. You know, it's an important part of. For me, idling is a very, very important part of life that we've essentially neglected, you know, particularly over the last few hundred years. In most older cultures, you know, the religious culture actually provides idling days off, bank holidays, feast days, festivals and so on. You know, timing, church, mosque or, you know, synagogue, whatever it is.

[James Reed]

So praying is a form of idling, is it?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

I think praying is definitely a form of idling, absolutely. And I think, you know, contemplation is a form of idling. You know, what we now call mindfulness or meditation is a form of idling. It's a chance to sort of get off the treadmill, escape the sort of pressures of things like status and money and all the things that the so called sort of real world imposes on us.

[James Reed]

Well, I like work, but that's why I want to explore this subject.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah, well, it's interesting because actually work is a really weird word, isn't it? Like, what does it actually mean? There's work, there's play. Are they opposites? Is work something that you don't want to do? Or could you turn work into something that you do want to do? That's what I've attempted to do anyway. I saw work as something I didn't particularly want to do, but I had to do for money. So in that situation, you either sort of perhaps change your mindset so that you enjoy your job, you change your job, or change your whole situation and maybe do the thing you really want to do, which in my case was journalism, book writing and to start my own magazine.

[James Reed]

Right. So, I mean, you talk about working for money. I mean, everyone needs to earn a living. The aristocratic ideal, I think, was sort of founded on some other people working and then sitting in large houses.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

The idle rich.

[James Reed]

Yeah, the idle rich, yeah. But I mean, that's not what you're talking about here, is it? Is it?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

No, because. Because that's obviously only open to a few people and in any case that's in many cases immoral. I think, you know, a lot of fortunes have been built on, well, quite recently on slavery, you know, more recently on exploitation of people in factories. Before that. Well, Henry vii Stole land and buildings from the church and gave them to his mates, you know, and then they were able to live off the rents. That's not really what I'm talking about. So living off, as you said, living off the toil of other people. I don't think that's really kind of what.

[James Reed]

That's not the type of idling you're commending to us.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

No. But I think you could be a little sort of mini aristocrat in your own.

[James Reed]

Just by doing so. How do you do this? So you're not going to do immoral idling, you know, like these people you've been describing Henry VIII and his ilk, but you want to find a life where you have more time.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

And you're calling it an idle life. Maybe. How do you accomplish that as someone living now in 2025?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

There are all sorts of little moments in the day I think, that you can sort of grab. Now, lots of people, for example, have a lunch break. Well, in America, I know, you know, in some companies, it's sort of frowned upon to go out at your lunch break because you're supposed to be sort of working really hard. But I think that's a quick thing to do to sor. Reclaim your lunch break. And actually an hour is quite a lot of idling time. When I used to work in High Hopen at the Sunday Mirror magazine, which is very near where we are now, you know, I would go out at my lunch break, wander around the church, sit on a park bench, probably have a little bit of a doze, you know, read some poetry, eat my sandwich, and that was quite sort of blissful, I felt.

[James Reed]

You ever get moves on?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Well, yeah, there is this prejudice against hanging around doing nothing.

[James Reed]

Yeah, there is.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Loitering with intent.

[James Reed]

That's a crime. Or an essential.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Like stop sitting still, like do something, you know?

[James Reed]

Yeah, yeah. Get on with your day. So you're encouraging people to lie on benches?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Absolutely, yeah. It's obviously not stopping someone else from.

[James Reed]

Sitting on it, which would be. Which would be discourteous. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. So tell me about your journey. How did you. How did you start out in your career? And what drew you in this direction? I mean, what put you off, you know, a conventional route? Maybe doing a graduate scheme at a major law firm, as you just described, into this more sort of esoteric. Yeah, Career choice.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

I really kind of went into the family business because both my parents were Fleet street hacks, so they both did well in Fleet.

[James Reed]

So journalists.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Journalists. When. When it was really sort of Thriving, you know, they worked at the places like the Mirror Group, Sunday People, Daily Mail.

[James Reed]

Well, those were good jobs back in the day when newspapers carried a lot of advertising, weren't they?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Absolutely. They were great jobs. They're very well paid. They weren't too hard work. My mum had a four day week. You know, they're in the pub half the time, but they made loads. And my parents gradually started doing better in their own lives and therefore my brother and I were taken out of the state schools when we were quite young and put into prep schools and, you know, we became sort of posher than my parents really. And I went to a school called Westminster and then went to Oxbury Jesus College, Cambridge, did English. So it was a really sort of like, you know, sophisticated education, which I very much enjoyed. And I enjoyed the academic side. But I also had this other thing at our school. It was quite cool to be sort of punky, you know. So we were fans of the Clash, Sex Pistols, Joy Division. We used to love going to gigs. So living in London as a sort of 14 year old public school boy, you know, you actually got this sort of influence of underground music. And I also enjoyed the philosophy at school. So there were these two things kind of combining. And then I played in punk bands at university. A lot of the punk bands that we liked ran their own record labels. You know, I thought that was quite an imp, like small business taking Rough Trade. Rough Trade. Well, then I went on to work for Rough Trade.

[James Reed]

You work for Rough. Yeah, I remember Rough Trade being one of the labels.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah, that's the label they also had. They had a shop and in Portobello, in Porto Bell.

[James Reed]

That's what I remember it.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's. It's still there. In fact, they've expanded. They've got a big one in Brick Lane. I spent a year there. And they also had a skateboarding shop. And the people I met now were very entrepreneurial, you know, they were sort of very creative. They were running fanzines, putting on club nights, I don't know, you know, playing in bands, designing T shirts, starting up skatewear labels.

[James Reed]

And then what happened after that?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Well, you know, I found the people who ran rough trades actually quite inspiring. Pete and Nigel. Nigel still runs it. It was their own business that they wanted to run. So I ended up with this weird mix of wanting to start my own business and also sit around doing nothing.

[James Reed]

That is quite difficult.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

It's quite hard. Impossible, I would say. But then I got a job at the Sunday Mirror on magazine and I was there for two years. That was 1990, a long time ago. Alastair Campbell was the political editor at the Daily Mirror. To give you an idea of how long ago it was, it was still owned by Maxwell. And that was sort of started as three days a week, then I did five days a week. Very junior position as a kind of researcher. I didn't like it particularly because I was too snooty. I wanted to be sort of writing about Romantic poetry. But it was very good training, actually. Very good magazine training for two or three years. Then I was sacked. And at this point.

[James Reed]

Well, I must ask, why were you sacked? You remember, it was.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

They just said, oh, we're sort of cutting down the stuff. I was kind of a freelancer, so I didn't have a proper contract or anything, you know, and then. So I was on the dole and in a way, sort of free to do my magazine project. I've been turning it over in my mind probably for two years. The Idler.

[James Reed]

We're delighted that you're listening to this episode. Hit the follow button so that we can continue to bring you the best business insight and actionable advice to help your business and or career. So. So you decided to start a magazine.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah, and I went to see my friend Gap.

[James Reed]

How did you finance that? How did you set that?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Well, the finance. Essentially, it cost 800 quid.

[James Reed]

Right.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

In 1993, to get a whole magazine published, to print a thousand copies. Yeah. And do the reproduction and the sort of necessary things that we had to do. My friend Gav had a computer. He had an Apple Mac, so that was okay. We did it in his flat, in his back room. And that money came from Lifetime subscribers, you know, a bit of money from my mum, maybe friends and family. Friends and family, you know, 50 quid here, 100 quid there. I think actually we got 790. 90 pounds. And then my friend Gav's girlfriend gave us the Last Tenor. And then I went and sold it. Literally got on my bicycle.

[James Reed]

Did you sell enough to cover the cost?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Well, we did. I think we sold just about enough. And we got some good publicity, too, with my friend Claire, who's now very senior at the Guardian. I went around all the newspapers dropping a copy off.

[James Reed]

Right.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

And we got some good publicity in the Daily Telegraph, for example.

[James Reed]

Right.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Gavin. I went on a radio show, so it started quite well. We got a little bit of coverage.

[James Reed]

So that was your initial business and that was.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

But I wasn't really expecting it to make any money. In fact, it didn't make any money for the next 27 years. Right. But it led to lots of other stuff.

[James Reed]

Oh, okay. So that sort of. That was the initiative. So what. What other things did you do after that, then?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Freelancing for all sorts of newspapers and magazines. Vogue and the Independent and stuff. And after publishing for about. Only about a year or two, I think we'd printed about four or five copies. The Guardian marketing department sort of picked up on it and brought us into the Guardian fold. And we stayed there for three years. And in fact, we ended up running a department, special ideas department there.

[James Reed]

Right, okay. So you've done some collaborations. So how many editions of the Idler have there been now? You've got the latest one behind you, I can see. It's got Michael Palin on the COVID Yeah. What number is that?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

That's 103.

[James Reed]

Number 103.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Unbelievably.

[James Reed]

Yeah, unbelievably. So that's. That's been going very consistently, but then you've added to it. I mean, you've started this academy. Yeah, with courses. And you also do trips for fellow Idlers to have idling experiences.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Victoria and I, my partner and our three small children moved to North Devon for 12 years, and that's where I kind of wrote most of my books. And while we were there, we had this idea of an Idler Academy. So, like Plato's Academy or. Well, any kind of academy. And we all know how frequently that word is used. It comes from the groves of Academe. You know, it was the area outside of Athens where Plato first taught his students in one of the first philosophical schools. And that was a real inspiration for me. The ancient Greek philosophers.

[James Reed]

Is that what the word means?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah, that's where it comes from. Yeah.

[James Reed]

All right.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

And, you know, Aristotle had his lyceum, which was also in Athens. And Epicurus started his own school, which was called the Garden, also near Athens. The Stoics taught in the marketplace. And there was an amazing period where there were several philosophical schools, all inspired by Socrates and all saying to people, look, you really need to take more time for leisure, whoever you are. Was.

[James Reed]

Before Greek culture disappeared. Or was it?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

It was.

[James Reed]

Or was it its heyday?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

This was sort of.

[James Reed]

It wasn't for the Romans occupied them, was it?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

No, it was a bit earlier. It was like 3rd to 5th century. It was an absolute heyday. How you doing? Yeah. And it was when the famous Greek playwrights were operating, you know, Aristophanes, whatever, the Greek tragic playwrights. An amazing period in Athens 100,000 people, a self governing city, you know, and the philosophers were saying, but people were anxious too, as we are today. So there was a lot of anxiety around and they were perpetual at war with Sparta, for example, and it was a kind of warlike culture. It was very dynamic and it built incredible things like the Parthenon, you know, in that period. But there was, you know, there was a level of anxiety. The philosophers came along and started teaching people how to become less anxious.

[James Reed]

That's interesting. And it's like Stoic philosophy is quite in vogue these days. There's lots of.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Well, Stoic philosophy is amazing. I just finished writing a book about it.

[James Reed]

And why is it amazing? What's good about it? Give us a quick heads up.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

The basic principle that everyone will quote is you can't control external events, but you can control your reactions to those events.

[James Reed]

Yes.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

So if something bad happens, you know, is it all in the mind? So if something bad could happen, but it's only bad if you allow it to. If you allow yourself to think it's bad. I mean, it's a tall order. It's a very, very tall order. But the Stoics say, you know, even when I'm being tortured on the rack, I remain happy because it's only my mind that said this is a bad thing. They say that, you know, I can remain happy if my children die, my wife dies, if I lose all my money, if I lose my job, you know, whatever it is. So they're saying that happiness comes from within.

[James Reed]

So. So is your sort of idling or idler philosophy sort of quite aligned with this Stoicism, do you feel, or is it. Is that something different?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Well, I think it's Stokes. Yeah, a little bit, but I think it's actually a bit joyless.

[James Reed]

Stoic side.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah. Lacking in fun.

[James Reed]

Yeah. I can imagine sort of Puritans identifying with that to an extent.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

I think they liked it.

[James Reed]

I did. Did they? And you're not keen on Puritanism by the. You've already had a go at Henry viii.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Y.

[James Reed]

Well, he wasn't a puritan, was he? But he sort of.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

No, he wasn't, but he was precursor to them, set the stage for it. Because when I was writing my books, I read a lot of medieval history and started to realize that the. A lot of us have this sort of caricature of the Middle Ages, which is like everyone was kind of a leper and living in mud huts and very unsophisticated. There was no science, people were superstitious and so on. But actually was, it was, it wasn't anything like as much as a dark age as people say. It was much less Monty Pythonish than, than, than we think. A lot of fun. You know, it was quite a sort of merry culture. We have this idea of merry England. And I grew up with people saying, oh, merry England was a myth, you know, the sort of time before Henry viii. But historians I've read recently, you know, contemporary historians, you know, professors, not crazy people say that. Well, actually the late Middle Ages particularly, there was a lot of fun and dancing, maypoles, boozing. The church encouraged it. They wanted people to enjoy themselves.

[James Reed]

Why did they encourage it?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

They encouraged it because it bonded communities. Also it raised money so they, they sold the beer. So they. There you go. Instead of.

[James Reed]

They ran the breweries.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah, it's like rave culture instead of. Hang on. Instead of cracking down on rave culture, let's put the raves on. Yeah, then we can make the money. And I think they thought it, it.

[James Reed]

They made the wine, the beer and they did, they profited from it. But people were happy, you're saying people were happy.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Maybe there was enough tensions as well, I don't know. You know, and then, and then.

[James Reed]

So Mary England was real, England was real. And you're trying to recreate it.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

So there's elements of it that are really fun to, to bring back with, you know, guilt free versions, you know, big feasts. Funnily enough, pilgrimage is coming back. A lot of these medieval customs I think are coming back in again.

[James Reed]

Pilgrimages.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Pilgrimage, yeah. Really people going on, large groups because pilgrimage was also banned by the Puritans. But the thing that's particularly, I suppose, relevant to the idler and James, to what you do as well read, was this idea of how kind of the work ethic, you know, appeared.

[James Reed]

Tell me about that. How did that appear?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Well, very briefly we have an image of Puritans in black hats. There's a Puritan in Shakespeare called Malvolio in 12 nights and he's priggish, self important. And crucially, the new Puritans who felt that the church had become corrupt. You know, priests were selling indulgences and all that sort of thing. The clerics were, you know, feathering their own nests. And it just got hopelessly out of hand and totally lost touch with the real original idea behind Christianity, Calvin and Luther, you know, so Calvin, Luther ushered in a new sort of era and they were very keen on work in a way that the medieval people had. Obviously they worked, they made things and you Know, but work wasn't. It was less of a sort of a cultural religion.

[James Reed]

Elevated work.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

They elevated work and they made it close to kind of godliness.

[James Reed]

Why did they do that or what's the thing?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Well, I think partly they did it because it went hand in hand with. Well, it was kind of an individualism actually. They didn't like being told what to do. Like there were people at the time who said, why should I? How come I'm not allowed to fight on a Monday? Why do I have to go to these feast days? But also it was very much a religious thing because they considered these attitudes to be popish and superstitious and sort of old fashioned. So they wiped out all those feast days. Christmas was sort of nearly banned. It was certainly banned in Boston and they tried to ban it under Cromwell a bit later. So there was an attack on the festive culture. But also they thought that the festive culture led people to getting drunk, fornicating, having children out of wedlock and therefore those people were going straight to hell. But if you essentially got people onto the straight and narrow, working hard, turning up on time, avoiding enjoying themselves too much, life became a more serious business, I think, more or less. And it's a very complicated series of Reformations, Counter Reformations, and eventually those Puritans, as we know, sailed off to America with their black hats.

[James Reed]

Well, I was just thinking about that. The Mayflower was a ship of Plymouth Brethren, wasn't it? Yeah. That went to America with those, with those ideas or took those ideas to.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

America, those ideas to Mercury. What a.

[James Reed]

They, you know, what a success they made.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

It's been an amazing success, hasn't it? I mean, an incredibly sort of dynamic culture.

[James Reed]

The merry England crowd had gone. Do you think it would have been.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

The same, the very England crowd, they still would have been sort of like dancing around a maple and passing out in a ditch.

[James Reed]

So there is something. So this culture that emerged with the black headed Puritans that you described still pervades the way we view a lot of things today, is that what you're saying?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah, and I think the Industrial Revolution came along after that too. And that, that also accelerated this whole thing. So technology extended the working hours because we had light bulbs, new machines came in which could work 24 7. So that meant that the working day should be extended so that the medieval people had, they had this, you know, there wasn't any electric light obviously. And they, they were actually against overwork because it might give you a. It was a more collective, cooperative culture, largely Speaking. I'm just. I'm slightly generalizing. I know it was much more complicated. We talk about 500 years, but generally speaking, you know, you had a guild system of business, and the guilds were like a sort of a union, but they. They also owned the means of production and they fixed the prices and they limited the working hours a bit like a union might do today. Because if you worked where you're not supposed to work, it might give you an unfair advantage over your brother in the guild. Or if you work by candlelight, you know, you produce inferior materials and things are obviously less mechanized, you know. But the machines, if you've invested a million pounds in a machine or whatever it is, then you want to get maximum productivity out of it. Hence very long working days in the early 19th century and women and children working, and also the. The migration from, you know, from countryside to town because the new machines needed lots of people to work on them.

[James Reed]

Well, I was thinking when you were saying that the sort of communal rural society in the Middle Ages, there wouldn't have been a lot of work to do in the winter because you harvested the crops, you plant them in the spring, you know, make merry in the winter perhaps, and have big festival, 12 days of Christmas.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Absolutely. It was a natural time to have a festival. Yeah.

[James Reed]

Yeah. So that I can see there was a pattern to life that these, these innovations disrupted. And we're now getting new innovations that are likely to disrupt us again. Especially, you know, this AI revolution that's right upon us. Can you see anything in history that might reassure us about what's coming next? Or are we going to be working even harder in this new world of AI or are we not going to be working at all? Some people are saying there won't be any jobs left. What do you think about this?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

I think there needs to be a good balance. Thinking about AI, it's hard to predict. Well, although I will make a prediction, which is that it's not going to be anything like as good or bad as people are saying. It's going to be something in the middle. I'm indifferent. We've had this before. Remember six years ago, everyone was talking about the robots are coming. In the 70s, people were talking about this amazing amount of leisure that we were going to have. What would we do with it all? Because machines become more sophisticated, the working day gets shorter. So I don't think AI, I mean, clearly AI is affecting some jobs. It's not going to take them all away. AI can't build a house. I mean, there are certain obvious things that it simply can't do. Again, in the Industrial Revolution of this idea that the machines would do all the work, but somehow it doesn't seem to work, have end up like that under the conditions of, you know, capitalism or whatever you call it, actually, the work, you know, the working day got longer. Shouldn't, you know, if you have new technology, shouldn't we sort of as a collective think, oh, that's great, now we only have to work 30 hours a week? I was. I did a diary story in the Idol about Sergey Brin, you know, the founder of Google. And you would have thought that he might be giving himself a little bit of time off now. I mean, he's probably nearly 60. He's. He started one of the biggest companies in the world. It turns over $250 billion a year in advertising, rising sales. I mean, he's made an absolute fortune. But because they want to compete with AI, he's running a new AI department and he keeps sending memos to his staff to encourage them to work harder and harder, sleep under the desk and this sort of thing. So that's the work ethic, I think, sort of gone a bit crazy. There were philosophers in the 30s who were like John Maynard Keynes, the economist. They thought we were working too hard then and that a sane society would come down to just very slowly, gradually reduce the working week, which has happened.

[James Reed]

You know, Didn't Bertrand Russell have a view about this?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

And Bertrand Russell was definitely his thing.

[James Reed]

What was his thing?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Well, he wrote an essay called In Praise of Idleness, which, you know.

[James Reed]

Praise of Idleness.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

In praise of Idleness, yeah. Because he says that work in itself is not good, you know, so we say, oh, hard work is good, but hard work is not necessarily good because you could be working very hard for something bad. You could be working very hard selling heroin. I mean, you could be working very hard as a. I mean, I hope that's not a glib example, but, you know, the Nazis worked hard. I mean, you know, so just working hard itself. Torturers work hard, you know, and you might be working hard doing something that's. That's immoral. So I think he was saying that, you know, work itself is not a moral good.

[James Reed]

Didn't you have some thoughts about innovation as well, or.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Well, he did. He thought that, you know, if you. If you got a new. A new machine, then you should reduce the. It was. It was the pin factory, wasn't it?

[James Reed]

I think so, yeah.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

So. So let's say you've got a pin factory and you get a new machine and, you know, you've got 100, you know, employees in the factory, you get a new machine and, and this machine allows you to make the same amount of pins but in half the time. So Bertram Russell said that, you know, a sort of kind society, as probably we would say, would say, oh, this is great, you 100 workers, you've been working 50 hours a week. We've got this new machine. You only have to work 25 hours now, so you've got more time with your family, you've got more time to sort of for your own pursuits or creative pursuits. You've got more time for sport, you've got more time for church, you know, you've got more time for cooking and making things, building, looking after your home, all these important things. I think, you know, looking after yourself, looking after your soul, which is what philosophy is about. All these things need time. If we devote all our life to work, we haven't got enough time for other equally important stuff. So. But, but, but the. But that doesn't happen. What they do is sack half the.

[James Reed]

Workers or produce twice as many pins. Yeah, I was thinking that's why I had to.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah, that was the. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, this is great. We can make more pins. Then you might flood the market with pins.

[James Reed]

You'll put someone else out of business who's still got the old machine. I don't know. But there is a sort of relentlessness to competition.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

There is, and it's capitalism, isn't there?

[James Reed]

That is quite. It's, it's exciting, forgiving in that respect, but also exciting.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

It's brutal, but it's exciting. And, but, you know, I think the idler, we're trying to say, yeah, that's all fine, but, you know, we need this other voice, the philosophical voice that's constantly saying, okay, but, you know, just slow down a bit, look after yourself.

[James Reed]

All right, so, you know, we're talking about entrepreneurs. You know, a lot of our listeners are entrepreneurs. And it occurs to me that for most entrepreneurs, the idea of idling might feel a bit alien. And, you know, do you think it's possible to be the CEO of a successful company and also an idler?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

I think it is. I had a chat with Luke Johnson once, the entrepreneur, and he said he's very anti idling. He's very, very hard working.

[James Reed]

He's been a guest on this podcast.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Well, he's amazing. I mean, he's done incredible things. You know, most famously, probably Pizza Express, but it's, you Know, it's quite a brutal world he's in that he's in. And he's got a lot of things on his plate, I suppose. So he does have to work hard. But I think, you know, CEOs could all slow down a bit because, as everyone knows from their own experience, you don't make good decisions when you're tired. You don't have good ideas when you're tired. You don't manage well when you're tired. You know, you slow down horribly and you get quite. You can get quite sort of techy. So the CEO in particular needs to make sure that he or he is, you know, taking time off, taking a break, you know, going for walks. I don't know whether it's true, but there's some apocryphal story. You know, Warren Buffett takes every Friday off. I don't know, it's maybe not him, but it's someone like that just to go for a walk and to think and also, you know, couldn't he do that on Saturday? You know, you're busy catching up with your kind of domestic stuff.

[James Reed]

Point taken. So you go to clear your head and have some to clear your head.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Entrepreneurs are creative people, actually, aren't they?

[James Reed]

Yeah. And you, and you. And it's a long game. I mean, you, it's a marathon, not a sprint. So you can't, you don't want to exhaust yourself or burn out, if there are any. What are the benefits of, for businesses of idling? I mean, is there, is this a philosophy that you can apply to your company or organization usefully?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yes, I think it is, because it's about, you know, keeping a distance from it. I mean, I know from my own personal experience it's really hard. Victoria and I ran a bookshop for five years. I mean, that really was actually very hard work compared with what I've been doing before, which is writing books. And I was.

[James Reed]

Selling books is harder than writing them.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Is it much harder respect to anyone in retail? Because it's really hard. We had events in the evening. We were quite good at the events. But the actual everyday business of running a shop and it was a. The idea was coffee house, like an 18th century coffee house and bookseller. So you could come and have a coffee, buy books, talk about ideas, you know, but it didn't, it didn't look like a bookshop. So people came in and just sat there all day and then left without buying a book or even buying a coffee. They thought it was a, like a library.

[James Reed]

They were just Idling, I mean, why are you up just idling? Just been saying to us, you should go and drop on a park bench. They just came in your shop and live the dream. And they talk.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

I could have, I could have paid the rent on that mate and the staff.

[James Reed]

You're now sounding like a capitalist.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Well, this is the thing that was the weird thing, the weird kind of mix. And I tackled this in a book called Business for Bohemians, you know, because.

[James Reed]

Yeah, tell me about that. What's that that's sitting right behind you? So tell me about that project. What was that about and why did you do it?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

It was kind of a story about experiences running this small business bookshop and also trying to keep the magazine going and some, some publishing projects and a bit of consultancy that we did various things to try and make ends meet. And I realized that, you know, I suppose I'm a sort of creative type of person. Not really naturally very sort of business like. But if I want to avoid having a full time job and make money out of my own business, then I needed to learn about business. You know, it's not something you just know, it's. It's a skill in itself.

[James Reed]

Yeah. So you realize that I realized that.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

I just want to teach myself, you know, and, but also want to help other people avoid the same mistakes that we had made. And so the book is about all the different aspects of business, you know, pricing, marketing, spreadsheets, you know, how to sort of stay resilient. And you know, I do talk about the stoics in the book too because that's. They got some useful advice for business people who are under stress, you know.

[James Reed]

What's that?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Well, I think take, take, you know, detach yourself from it. Maybe it's not that important. There's this thing catastrophizing. You probably heard this word people in. It's like, oh my God. And I used to stand in the shop and go, what's the point? What's the. Why all this hard work you put in and then, you know, you have a whole day of kind of. Yeah, yeah. And that's to be avoided. So just, just to be one step detached. I suspect you're very good at this, James. And you know, you can sort of step back from it, not allow it to kind of stress you out too much. But. And that probably comes with training, you know, but I found that quite difficult, so I got better at it. But. And then also things like just learning to be sensible with money. Also. How do you sell? They're all Very, very difficult arts, I think. So, you know, I'm slightly cautious. If I say to people, I will quit your job and start your own business, you know, it's, it's. It's very difficult.

[James Reed]

There's a lot involved. Well, I commend your book business for Bohemians to people who want to do that, because I think it's got a lot of interesting and useful content, and it's from your own lived experience, isn't it?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

It is, it is. And James, you were very. You were very great. You came and give talks on how to recruit people.

[James Reed]

I remember doing that. Yeah. And so I think that's a. That's a good initiative. But is it possible to be. To live that life, you know, to earn enough as a sort of bohemian, as you described it, realistically? I mean, is this a. Is this an avenue that people can. In 2025?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, obviously you're not going to be necessarily making so millions or certainly not billions if you're, if you're, if you, if you want to do that, this thing, whatever it is, you know.

[James Reed]

And monetize your hobby.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Monetize your hobby. I mean, maybe it's a grandiose comparison, but, you know, I remember interviewing Damien Hirst many, many years ago, and he said, my business model is the Beatles. I thought that was a really good comment. You know, the Beatles, okay, They're obviously the special case. You know, we can't.

[James Reed]

What does he mean by that?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Well, what he meant was that they were enjoying themselves, doing what they wanted, but they're also very good at the sort of business side and they're very kind of ambitious, you know, so I'm. Although this is all about idling, I'm also sort of quite ambitious. It's like John Lennon was. A lot of Beatles songs also are about the importance of idling. Wheels go around. Imagine all the people. These kind of stoic ideas.

[James Reed]

But they work really hard, didn't they? I mean, they played for many years in clubs before they sort of.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

And so, yeah, it's just.

[James Reed]

But they love what they were doing.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

But they love what they were doing. And Paul McCartney had this phrase that we've had the hard days play. So it's when play and work get sort of mixed up together and.

[James Reed]

But, you know, that's the kind of sweet spot you're looking for.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

That's the sort of sweet spot. And it's. It's almost like it's a sort of vocation, really. But Victoria and I went through a period of being Sort of quite skimmed and that wasn't much fun at all. So you've got to be sensible about the business, as a business.

[James Reed]

What do you say to your kids about idling? I mean, is this something you encourage or is it something actually do your homework sort of thing?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Well, how do you approach that? I can imagine it being a little sensitive.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah. I tried to hide the magazine when they, when they were teenagers. But you, dad, you say, you know, it's good to. Well, strangely. But my eldest son is really not, not very idle at all. I mean, he's sort of a tech bro. You know, he works for a tech company.

[James Reed]

Right.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

He works really hard and he's always on his phone and he thinks in a sort of. He thinks in a sort of tech way. And he's very hardworking and he was. Actually worked quite hard when he was quite small. He used to run businesses and things.

[James Reed]

So he's an entrepreneur.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

He's an entrepreneur. He's got a job at the Shock Horror.

[James Reed]

I mean, what are you gonna do? Dynamo in the house?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

But then he did see Victoria and I sort of slaving away. Not slaving away, but, you know, it was chosen. But going to festivals, you know.

[James Reed]

Well, you grew up in a home where you were, you know, entrepreneurial, I.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Guess, you know, I'm not saying successful entrepreneurial. That's my joke. It's like I'm on James Reid reads podcasts, he interviews entrepreneurs. And they don't have to be successful ones.

[James Reed]

Well, no, I mean, you're an entrepreneur if you're running your own show.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

No, I think you are. I think if you're more or less doing what you want to do and you're making a living, that is a success. Yeah.

[James Reed]

And I think that thing about, you know, having your time as your own, I think is important to a lot of entrepreneurs.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

I think that that is the great benefit. So, I mean, in one sense, I'm working all the time because I'm always thinking about the magazine, ideas for the magazine, little sentences in my head for bits of writing. It's, it's, it's kind of 24 7. On the other hand, I can take Wednesday afternoon off and go and play tennis or go for walk if I choose to. So personally, I really enjoy that sort of freedom. You know, I can quite work, do two or three hours work on a Sunday morning at home writing something, you know, but then, yeah, reserve the right to sort of, you know, so I'd like to explore.

[James Reed]

You talked a bit about having this bookshop where she ran for a period of time. And you found it tough. Give me some specifics for. For some people who are listening, who might be thinking of starting a business. What would I say? Three things that you felt. Well, I didn't realize that was coming towards me and I wish I'd known about it and I would have done it differently.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah, well, staff.

[James Reed]

So people.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

People. Tax and vat. Right, Tax and accounting. That whole area.

[James Reed]

Yeah. People.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Finance, accounting and funding also, I would say, actually. I mean, I think we were quite good at coming up with the ideas and making things happen. Booking people for events and events were good. We were quite good at publicity. We had got a lot. Got a lot of publicity.

[James Reed]

But what about the people side of things? What did you find? People.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Something. It's. It's. You know, we should have come to you, James, on day one, because.

[James Reed]

Thank you for saying that. We're very happy to help you, but.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah, I think retreating people is, again, it's a skill in itself. You know, it's very important to get it right. We didn't know anything about it, you know, we were completely useless. We had no experience at all, really. I mean, I had worked with people at the Guardian, obviously, but I didn't have to interview people, employ people, and then work out, and then manage them, really, you know, and then work out all their tax and everything and their contracts. And we had a lot of, you know, quite bad episodes with. With staff, and I found that very difficult. And also because it was called the Idler Academy, you know, it's difficult for me to kind of crack the whip when. If they were late or lazy. I remember, like. I remember overhearing some stuff saying, yeah, it's such a hypocrite. Correct. You know, we have to work really hard here.

[James Reed]

So they've been Ms. Sold, do you think?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah, it's got the wrong name. We should have called it the Hard Work Academy.

[James Reed]

Yeah, yeah, I can see that might be. So, okay, so the people side thing, I think.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah, that's really.

[James Reed]

There's a statistic that really struck me that 80 of managers in Britain have had no formal training. So I suppose if you're starting your own business, you've had no formal training. You fall into that category.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah, you do.

[James Reed]

And it makes it a lot harder.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

It does. Because you think. You don't realize it's a skill in itself. I think it's like being a carpenter. I mean, I can't build a table and I think I can manage a team of staff. Well, I Couldn't you think, because I'm just a human being, oh, I'll just be nice to them. There's more to it than that, isn't there? Well, as you know, as you well know. And so that was a bit of a shock and told me about being a bad boss and being a bad manager.

[James Reed]

Well, and so there's that then what you said, finance generally, what was the challenge there for you?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

We didn't keep books properly and this led to all sorts of really stressful problems with being late with VAT tax issues, you know, and we got like a really, like a sort of five figure VAT bill that I hadn't been expecting. And we were pretty hand to mouth in the business, so we didn't have any.

[James Reed]

What did you do when that came?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

I don't know. We dug into the overdraft or we paid in installments. The amazing thing is that actually if you ring up the government, well, what I learned was the more you put your head in the sand, the worse it gets. If you got a problem, deal with it like instantly. And people are actually really nice. They're human beings at the other end. They don't want to destroy you. And we found that once we faced up to it, it was okay that we'll put an installment plan and you can pay a certain amount per month.

[James Reed]

So that's good advice. Pick up the phone, talk to someone.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Pick up the phone and tell them.

[James Reed]

Weren'T expecting this or you.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

You admit you made a mistake, you know, and rather than sort of probably what I did at the beginning, just get angry, you know, get angry. Well, okay, Tom, don't get angry. You know, everyone else pays VAT in tax, you know, why do you think you're exempt from this? You should be exempt. Same with rent and rates and things like that, you know. So if you want to enter the system like this and start a business, well, you have to accept that there are kind of laws around it and.

[James Reed]

Get a good bookkeeper by the sound of things.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

And that was the other thing we did. Our books were terrible. So that just caused a lot of chaos. We didn't, you know, we just about managed to keep up with everything. We had a good chartered accountant, so they were able to do our accounts each year, so that's fine. So we didn't miss the account deadline with Companies House, but the everyday accounts were a complete, everyday books were a complete mess. When we closed the shop and relaunched the business, the first thing we did was to employ a very, very good bookkeeper and Financial manager before I was doing it. And this person now will chase up invoices, send our invoices out and helps me to produce budgets, management accounts and all these sorts of things that we were taught later. So I started to learn that stuff towards the end of our tenure at the bookshop. I should have learned that before. We should have gone on some sort of proper business course or something.

[James Reed]

Yeah, a good course is finance for non financial managers and things like that.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah, I just think there are things like that out there. They should be. We. I've actually put some on our website.

[James Reed]

Yeah, no, that's really important. I can see that. And then you said funding was the third.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

We didn't have enough money. So I mean the whole thing was a bit sort of foolish really because it wasn't really a very good business idea.

[James Reed]

We only knew that later.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

We only knew that later. Although I was warned on before it started by Frank John Brown who's.

[James Reed]

He's a publisher.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

He's a very successful publisher. He published biz. Yeah. He made absolute millions and you know, lives in Holland park and all the rest of it. But he's great, he's a great support and advice. He popped round because before we'd opened the shop it was too late to do anything. We'd already taken out a five year lease. And he said, well, what is it then? Well, it's the Idol. Academy of Philosophy, Husbandry and Merriment. Bookseller and Coffee House. Bit of a long title. Okay, fine, but. And what are you going to do? Well, we are sort of stuttered. You know, we're going to have. During the day it's a bookshop and a cafe and you know, a sort of hangout place. And in the evening we'll have talks, events, dancing, I don't know, you know, Latin lessons, grammar. And he said, I see midlife crisis center, marginal at best.

[James Reed]

But you did do all of those things.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

We did do all those things. And so there's something to be proud of that you had a go.

[James Reed]

I mean that's the important thing, isn't it? You had a go.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

And on the plus side, I think.

[James Reed]

You learned some things along the way.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

You learned some things along the way. Actually. You do get some, some, you do get some respect for having a go. But the problem is respect don't pay the rent.

[James Reed]

No. So you moved on from bookshop and you now run an academy that's digital.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah, this time we raised some money because I was saying that, you know, we didn't really. We never had Quite enough money in the council. It was always, always just a bit behind everything. And that's just really stressful, you know. And then we weren't paying ourselves. We paid ourselves less and less. By the end, we're paying ourselves nothing. So I was having to live off bits of journalism or I just borrow a 10 quid out of the till, you know. It was really tough. Yeah. And we did other things, like we bred puppies. I mean, we did all sorts of desperate things to try and make some money and. But with the new iteration, I really dipped my toes sort of deeper into capitalism, if you like, went to a company called crowdcube, which a lot of your listeners will be aware of, and this actually worked quite well for us. I mean, I have some reservations about it, but it's a crowdfunding business where.

[James Reed]

People can invest in other businesses.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

They invest. So it's not. It's not. It's not Kickstarter. So you're not selling stuff in advance.

[James Reed]

But you're actually shareholders now, I guess.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah. So now we got 150 shareholders. We sold a percentage of the company, 11 to 12%, and we raised 150 grand. It was great. So that meant that we could, you know, quite comfortably hire an assistant, rent an office and also have some money in the bank for marketing. That's one thing we did. And then the second thing was we got advice from. I think the other advice thing I've learned is if whatever it is you want to do, find someone who's done the same thing but successfully, and get advice from them. Because we got a lot of. You get a lot of advice. You're probably too successful, James, to experience this, but I find that when you're doing a small business, lots of friends, well, meaning friends, advise you. But as Luke Johnson would say, have they run a small business? Have they done something like you? If the answer is no, then there's not much point listening to their advice, really. But we went to another magazine called the Oldie, who we're good friends with, very similar sort of business, and they've advised us really well on how to run a small magazine that also does some other things.

[James Reed]

So the Oldie advises the idea like an older sibling.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

It is. It really is.

[James Reed]

It's like Uncle Oldie, Uncle Oldies have been helpful.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah. Helping out the idler.

[James Reed]

So looking for sort of fellow travelers so you can share a mentor, you.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Know, when somebody's done something very similar and knows what you're going through. So James, at the Oldie, the publisher, you know, they also run holidays, they sell subscriptions for a magazine, they sell advertising. It's just a very, very similar.

[James Reed]

So you're not competing?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

We're not competing at all. We've both got quite quirky titles and. And so that's been really good to learn from them.

[James Reed]

Right, right. So the business is on a new basis now, then. It's. You've been financed, you're doing digital, you've got your academy going, you're doing these trips as well.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah, so.

[James Reed]

So if someone wants to subscribe or come on one of your trips, tell us about one of these trips so that people know what's on offer here and then tell us how they can find them.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Well, thanks, James. Yeah, we, we called them Idler retreats. And in the modern lingo, I suppose you would call them experiences. We started doing them actually when Victoria and I were living in a farmhouse in North Devon. Short weekends for people to come and sort of experience a bit of country life. You know, vegetable growing, beekeeping, these things that we were doing then. And the retreats. But then a few years ago, we found a really wonderful villa in Italy called Villa Pier and we've now done a lot of retreats with them. We take a group of sort of 20 to 30 Idler readers for a week and there'll be some sort of a theme. We'll go and visit churches, Piero della Francesca, Renaissance art, Siena, Arezzo. The last one was a pilgrimage theme, so it was all about St. Francis. And we retraced his steps on three separate days on short walks, medium walks, seven miles, and ended up in Assisi on the last one. And then I'll be giving talks about idling or philosophy. We took a group to Spain, to Andalusia recently, and, you know, it's a mix of philosophical thinking, good chat, good fun evenings, sing alongs. We all eat together. So there's a sort of feasting element. So the sort of merry making is a part of it, but it's also very educational. I think people really enjoy learning, you know.

[James Reed]

So you have sing alongs.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

We always have a sing along at the end.

[James Reed]

Okay, so. So. So if, if someone wants to come on one of these retreats, where do they go? How do they find you?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

They go to idler.co.uk idler.co.uk. the thing people love about them as well is that, you know, you just meet so many interesting people.

[James Reed]

Well, I, I know you do beekeeping courses. They're very good because my wife, Nicholas.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

They are brilliant experiences.

[James Reed]

Brilliant experiences. But they are. And, and so many people have learned beekeeping.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

They're good on it.

[James Reed]

Yeah, it's a good thing.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Well, congratulations on, I guess, pivoting and reinventing your business. Are there any other lessons you want to share to entrepreneurs or would be entrepreneurs from your journey so far?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Well, I think there's a flip side to idling going, going back to why CEO should be more idle, which is efficiency. So it's all about not wasting your time. And I think an efficient ethic is better than a sort of work ethic. So long hours don't necessarily produce better results or sort of more productivity. They might do in some industries, but in general they're not necessarily linked. So I think the arts of efficiency need to be studied. And perhaps the person who sort of, you know, leaves on time should be more respected than the person who kind of lingers for two or three hours after whatever the home time is, just to be seen to be sort of working harder or something like that, you know. So I think that that's one of the lessons is efficiency is the kind of another way of saying, you know, I don't work too hard, I guess, you know, I, I work efficiently and I enjoy it, but I'm not going to still kill myself. And I think that's an important lesson for anybody. And also to find, as I said at the beginning, to find these little bits of time during the day when you just let your mind wander and drift and turn the phone off, put the phone away, sit on a park bench. As we talked about at the beginning, idling is free. So one of the main questions we get and have always had is, oh yeah, you probably need to be rich to be an idler. Oh well, it's all right for you sort of posh people. We have a festival in Hampstead and we do ukulele teaching and someone once got angry and sent me an email saying, you know, it's all right for you and your, you and your poshmates playing the ukulele in hamster.

[James Reed]

What's your answer to that? Because, I mean, there is a bit of that you must want, you know.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah, it seems a bit silly.

[James Reed]

Well, the answer to that is lifestyle.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

It's like, oh, well, you know, like, yeah.

[James Reed]

You'Re saying you're sort of financing this from your endeavors.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah, and I'm saying, you know, we don't have any private income or anything like that. You know, it's all self financed. It's for buying and selling, you know, some selling things, making things and selling them like the Beatles. Yeah, so, but yeah, the idea of the idle rich, no, you know, idling is free. Anyone can be idle. You know, it's a question of taking control of your time and sort of, you know, being a bit kind of thinking smart as they say in America, about your time, organizing it carefully and also I think actually scheduling idle idling nowadays.

[James Reed]

All right, so, so I asked you right at the beginning, is idle idling the same as being lazy? So, and, and you, you said it was not. And I suppose sort of to summarize what I've heard and you can correct me if I'm wrong, the sort of upsides of idling, if, if you're an entrepreneur or someone who's probably quite driven one the. You might make yourself more efficient by managing your time more carefully and in a more focused way. Yeah, you might have better ideas because ideas come often in this sort of less likely situations where might be idling. And I suppose I'm sort of underlying all this. You might have better relationships as well because you have time for other people. And is that a fair summary of the.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

I think that's right.

[James Reed]

Can we reconcile our positions here?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah, we can. Because you could do your job better if you have a bit more idling. There was one example was is doctors. You know, I've met quite a few doctors who've gone down to a four day week. Well, they feel they can give a better service to their patients because they're enjoying it, they're not exhausted.

[James Reed]

You know, as long as you don't get sick on one of their days off. That's what I worry about.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

That's fallible logic, James, because there's a bunch of them, you share the work, you know, so yeah, you don't all take the same day off. That's what someone objected to the. I think it was Jacob Rees Mogg objected to the four day week in Cambridge Council. He said, well, what happens if, you know, there's a pothole, leaves fetig on a Friday? It doesn't work like that, you know, like not everyone. The entire department doesn't all take Friday off, you know.

[James Reed]

Are you sure about that? Some people might wonder, I mean Fridays have become a bit of a fall guy for some of this stuff. I notice the productivity takes a hit. Yeah.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

So if this is sacrilegious, love Fridays.

[James Reed]

So no, I think you should love every day, but love every day. So are you a fan of the four day week?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Well, I mean I don't do it personally because it's just all Sort of spread out. But I am, you know, anything that's moving forward to giving people more leisure. Yes, I'm a fan of it, so. But I don't think it should be imposed on people.

[James Reed]

AI, you should love that. I mean, that's going to give people a lot more leisure, isn't it?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

I don't know whether it will. We just don't know. Like I said, it tends not to happen with labor saving devices. You think they're going to get, give people more leisure and they somehow don't. They get sort of.

[James Reed]

Windmills were meant to give people more windmills.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

People were scared of windmills at the time. They thought they were a bit like we're scared of AI, but they were scared of windmill. They thought they were sort of like ungodly creatures, ungodly machines harvesting, you know, the air.

[James Reed]

Yeah, well, they were a new innovation, weren't they? All right, so, well, thank you for coming to talk to me.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Thank you.

[James Reed]

Yeah. And thank you for your words of wisdom. I mean, it's good to hear some philosophy on the podcast and go back to stoicism and ATH and one other thing I remember you telling me on another occasion, the origins of the word scholar or school. Yeah, Just share that at the end of this podcast. I think that's really interesting.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah. I found this out quite recently. We were talking about the ancient Greek philosophers and they want, they, they argued that everyone should make, you know, give themselves more leisure time to do more philosophizing, you know, to take care of their soul, take care of their body, take care of their friendships, that take care of their life, not just work. And their word for that was scole, leisure. So schole was the Greek, ancient Greek word for leisure. It's when you did what you wanted, when you were released to do what you wanted to do, not things that you sort of had to or are forced to for whatever reason. So it meant kind of freedom. But it turned into the words Latin word for school scholars, because school was what, again, at the beginning of school, it was something kind of fun, you know, that you did because you wanted to go and school yourself. So that's kind of what idling was about in our idling academy. Like in your spare time, make more leisure time to educate yourself to, to enjoy your life more. So that's an amazing idea that this word, you know, which now to us the word school sounds like something that's actually imposed on you that you sort of don't like originally was a word meaning the kind of stuff that you would do for fun in your leisure time.

[James Reed]

So back to school for learning in leisure. Yeah, Scully, I like that thought. Thanks so much for coming to talk to me, Tom. It's been a real pleasure. I'm going to ask you two questions at the end that I ask all my guests. The first one is, you know, the clues on the wall. You know, what is it that gets you up on a Monday morning?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Well, I think. I think idling, as we said, it doesn't mean not working. It means enjoying the work you're doing. And I actually look forward to. You're right. You know, if you can go. The sign of a happy life must be something like, do you go to bed on a Sunday evening looking forward to getting up the next day? You know, I've had lots of periods when I really didn't that really, you know, and, and so. And if that's happening, then I think that's the sign you need to change your life. And that might be in getting another job, finding a different position, changing your arrangement in some way or other, but you need to make that effort to do it. And for me personally, I look forward to Monday mornings because that's in general, that's my sort of writing time. So that's the time when I can sit down at home and meet my stoic philosophers or whatever it is and write articles, continue work on my next book. My next book is about Socrates. So I enjoy that. And I think that's almost. It almost feels like a skive, because that's the morning I give off my idler stuff.

[James Reed]

So when's your stoic book coming out?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

That's coming out in February, 2026.

[James Reed]

And what's it going to be called?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

You know, it's called how to Live Like a Stoic.

[James Reed]

Okay. By Tom Hodgkinson. We'll look out for that. So that's your Monday morning that's covered. Socrates next. Are you pretty busy on Mondays? But I completely agree with what you say. If you're not looking forward to Monday, then it's time to make a change. We're here to help, but so are you with your philosophy.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

And then the last question is, where do you see yourself in five years time?

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Well, I think I've mentioned. Although, you know, I think idlers can be quite ambitious. So often people who are entrepreneurs are people who might have been quite lazy when they're at school or quite lazy when they had a sort of more conventional job because they had. It's a kind of the laziness can be a sort of a sign of the free spirit, I think sort of rebelling against on authority or being told what to do. And an alternative to that is to become an entrepreneur. And I think that's quite common with entrepreneurs. There's something maybe slightly wrong with them. Often they don't quite sort of fit in. I mean, you know, Richard Branson is famously dyslexic and he's got a slightly different way of looking at, looking at things. What was the question?

[James Reed]

Where do you see yourself? That's good. Carry on. I'm enjoying the, enjoying the ramble.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

That's my main, one of my big problems. Talk too much but you can't see.

[James Reed]

Yourself in five years time.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

In five years time I see myself keep my mouth shut a lot more often. No, I think doing the same thing but with more readers. You know, we're quite, we're quite ambitious for the Idler. We'd like to be doing more trips, spreading the word more widely, more subscriptions like a band, a band wants more fans, you know. Ariane idling yeah, so I'm really happy with the everyday work I'm doing. I don't feel like I want to retire and I'll probably never retire because it's really quite fun and journalists generally say, well journalism, it's not really work, it's sort of fun, you know. So for me it's, it's all fun, you know, so hopefully just carry on. Hopefully we'll be able, we'll survive one that's, you know, that's and achievement but also grow the business so that we have, you know, we have 5,000 subscribers. The circulation is 8 or 9,000. Well yeah, we'd like to be on 10,000 subscribers and circulation 20,000, you know the oldie have a circulation of about 40,000. That's you know, quite a successful magazine to sort of keep spreading the idle word.

[James Reed]

Good. Well I wish you every success with that and I hope praise from John Brown in the future. It sounds like a ton mentor. Thank you Tom, Very good talking to you.

[Tom Hodgkinson]

Thanks.

[James Reed]

Thank you Tom for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reid, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reid, Tom and the Idler, all links are in the show notes and if you like this episode and would like to listen to more, please click on the follow button. See you next next time.