35. Cargo without borders: How airships are about to connect the unreachable | Mark Dorey

Summary

Podcast Summary: James Reed: All About Business Episode 35: Cargo without Borders: How Airships Are About to Connect the Unreachable | Mark Dorey Release Date: July 7, 2025

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Introduction to Airships and Straight Line Aviation

[00:00 - 01:27]

James Reed opens the episode by highlighting a critical global issue: 50% of the world remains inaccessible through traditional transportation systems, making the delivery of essential goods like medicine and food both costly and challenging. To address this, Reed welcomes Mark Dorey, the co-founder and CEO of Straight Line Aviation, a pioneering hybrid airship company aiming to revolutionize cargo transport to remote areas.

Mark introduces Straight Line Aviation as an operator of a new generation of airships designed for heavy lift cargo and various applications. These airships are a spin-out from Lockheed Martin, leveraging decades of expertise in airship operations.

Understanding Airships: Traditional vs. Modern Designs

[01:27 - 08:06]

Mark explains the fundamental differences between traditional airships and modern hybrid designs. Unlike airplanes, which rely entirely on aerodynamic lift, airships achieve buoyancy through helium gas contained within a large envelope. This natural lift reduces the energy required for propulsion.

Notable Quote:

“An airship is air and foremost, it flies. It flies, it's powered, but it gets most of its lift from gas contained in a large envelope.” – Mark Dorey [02:31]

James draws a parallel between managing airship buoyancy and scuba diving, emphasizing the complexity of maintaining neutral buoyancy to ensure stability during flight.

Mark delves into the history of airships, noting their prominence in the 1920s and 30s as the fastest means of transatlantic travel and their use in World War I for defense and bombing raids. However, advancements in aircraft technology and safety concerns, especially after disasters like the Hindenburg, led to the decline of traditional airships.

The Revival of Airships: Hybrid Airship Technology

[08:06 - 18:14]

Mark introduces the concept of hybrid airships, which combine buoyant lift from helium with aerodynamic lift from a wider, wing-like body design. This hybrid approach allows airships to carry significantly heavier payloads without the need for extensive ground infrastructure like large crews or masts.

Notable Quote:

“The wider body is there to deliver that aerodynamic lift. So it's shaped like a wing, so it gets about 60 to 80% of its lift from the helium.” – Mark Dorey [10:20]

This design innovation addresses the major challenges of traditional airships, such as ground handling difficulties and the high manpower required for mooring.

Business Applications and Benefits

[18:14 - 33:32]

Reed and Dorey discuss the myriad benefits that businesses can reap from adopting hybrid airship technology:

• Connectivity: Bridging the transportation gap for remote regions in Africa, Asia, Australia, and the Arctic.
• Cost Efficiency: Significant savings on infrastructure costs, such as building runways or roads.
• Environmental Sustainability: Lower fuel emissions and reduced environmental impact compared to traditional aircraft.
• Versatility: Capable of vertical takeoff and landing, enabling operations from unprepared sites, including water, snow, and ice.

Notable Quote:

“If you're a business looking to expand your market, your reach, but also doing that in a greener, more sustainable manner, lower fuel emissions, lower infrastructure costs and damage.” – Mark Dorey [11:17]

Mark provides a compelling case study of an oil and gas company in Papua New Guinea, which could have saved 900 out of $927 million on runway construction costs by utilizing airships instead of traditional aircraft.

Mark Dorey’s Entrepreneurial Journey

[33:32 - 54:35]

Mark shares his extensive background in the aviation industry, including his tenure with Virgin Airship and Balloon Company. His experience spans managing commercial airship operations, engaging in innovative advertising strategies using airships, and leveraging partnerships to enhance business growth.

Notable Quote:

“The key was delivering more bang for your buck than somebody would get buying newspaper advertising or poster sites.” – Mark Dorey [21:19]

Transitioning from an employee at Virgin to founding Straight Line Aviation alongside longtime business partner Mike Kendrick, Mark emphasizes the importance of complementary skills and mutual respect in successful business partnerships.

Challenges and Resilience in Business

[54:35 - 58:35]

Mark candidly discusses the hurdles faced during the development of Straight Line Aviation, including political changes like the imposition of tariffs by the U.S. administration on Chinese partnerships, which derailed initial plans. Despite these setbacks, Mark underscores the necessity of resilience and adaptability in entrepreneurship.

Notable Quote:

“You've got to be patient and say you've got to have that resilience.” – Mark Dorey [38:22]

He also highlights the unpredictability of the business environment, especially in long-term projects like developing airships, and the critical role of trust and shared vision in maintaining strong international partnerships.

Lessons from Richard Branson and Business Partnerships

[31:17 - 46:29]

Mark reflects on his time working with Richard Branson, drawing key lessons on leadership and company culture:

1. Passion and Energy: Essential for driving business success.
2. Empowering Employees: Encouraging ownership and decision-making to foster a productive and positive work environment.
3. Trust and Collaboration: Building a team based on trust and shared values to ensure cohesive and effective operations.

Notable Quote:

“You've got to empower people and get them to, you know, and by doing that, they take ownership, then you deliver.” – Mark Dorey [33:37]

Mark also discusses the dynamics of a long-term business partnership with Mike Kendrick, emphasizing the benefits of having complementary skills and the ability to resolve disagreements through mutual respect and open communication.

Advice for Entrepreneurs

[40:36 - 52:32]

Mark offers invaluable advice to budding entrepreneurs:

• Perseverance: Push through moments of doubt and setbacks.
• Realistic Vision: Ensure there is a genuine demand for your product or service.
• Market Due Diligence: Conduct thorough research to validate your business idea.
• Flexibility: Be prepared to adapt and change strategies as needed.

Notable Quote:

“There will be three or four times when you think this is going to fail... you've just got to push through these moments and believe in what you're doing.” – Mark Dorey [40:55]

He also emphasizes the importance of establishing trust, shared vision, and long-term relationships when selecting business partners.

Future Vision and Closing Thoughts

[54:46 - 57:03]

Looking ahead, Mark envisions a robust fleet of airships operating globally, transforming logistics, enhancing connectivity, and contributing significantly to reducing the carbon footprint.

Notable Quote:

“If you look at the potential to reduce carbon emissions... improving the social and economic well-being for the communities... this is something which could be transformative.” – Mark Dorey [39:17]

The episode concludes with Mark expressing his dedication and passion for his mission, highlighting personal stories that underscore the real-world impact of their work.

Final Notable Quote:

“You get up in the morning because I feel what we're doing... is important and potentially... has the ability to transform the way we move things around the world.” – Mark Dorey [55:22]

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Key Takeaways

1. Hybrid Airship Technology: Combining helium buoyancy with aerodynamic lift to enable efficient, sustainable, and versatile cargo transport to remote areas.
2. Business Benefits: Significant cost savings, environmental sustainability, and enhanced connectivity for businesses expanding into underserved markets.
3. Entrepreneurial Insights: Importance of perseverance, adaptability, and building trust-based partnerships.
4. Leadership Lessons: Empowering teams, fostering a positive company culture, and maintaining a shared vision are crucial for business success.
5. Future Impact: Potential to revolutionize global logistics, support UN development goals, and pave the way for zero-emission aviation.

Slogan

"No roads, no rail, no runway, no problem."

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This episode provides a comprehensive exploration of the resurgence of airship technology, its significant business applications, and the entrepreneurial spirit driving this innovative venture. Mark Dorey's insights offer valuable lessons on leadership, partnership, and the resilience required to bring transformative ideas to fruition.

Transcript

[James Reed]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. 50% of the world is not connected. Transporting medicine, food and many products can come at high cost. But what if we were on the brink of a revolutionary solution? Joining me today on All About Business is Mark Dorey, the co founder and CEO of Straight Line Aviation, a new hybrid airship company that will transport cargo to every part of the planet. In this episode, we discuss how to turn your ambitious idea into a new business, tips for choosing the right business partner, and the lessons Mark learned from Richard Branson. Well, today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to welcome Mark Dorey, who's traveled all the way from Bridgnorth in Shropshire, and he's the CEO and co founder of a company called Straight Line Aviation. As the crow flies, I would say. And it's a hybrid. Well, it's a totally new way of delivering people and goods and services to remote parts of the world. So I'm going to ask you, Mark, just explain a little bit about what Straight Line Aviation is and will be and why you're doing this. Because you're a serial entrepreneur and you've got a great new venture here and I want to hear all about it.

[Mark Dorey]

Fantastic. No, thank you very much and thank you for inviting me down today, James. It's a pleasure being here. Straight. Straight Line Aviation has been established as a, an operator of a new generation of airships. And I don't know if you can.

[James Reed]

Catch that for those on video, Mark is holding a small airship, small airship model.

[Mark Dorey]

So this is a new generation of airship designed to move heavy lift, cargo, freight and a number of other applications. And we are, if you like, the airline in the piece. So the airship itself in this regard has been developed by Lockheed Martin over in the States and is now being commercialized by a spin out of the of Lockheed. And we were invited to get involved, involved really because of our airship operations experience. And we have a team of people with a great deal of heritage in, in the airship industry and many, many decades of experience of operating airships all over the world.

[James Reed]

So, Mark, I'm going to interrupt you because I'm not sure really what an airship is. Okay, so. So I mean, there's an airplane. I know what that is. And there's a ship. I know what that is. Yes, just tell us, people like me who maybe don't know what, what is an airship? How's it just different from a ship or a.

[Mark Dorey]

Okay, what is it? Fair question. So an airship is A is an air and foremost, it flies. It flies, it's powered, but it gets most of its lift from gas contained in a large envelope, a large bag really. And typically these days that lifting gas is, is helium, which is lighter than air. So you get free lift. It's different from a, from an aircraft that you have a buoyant flight as opposed to a flight where the entirety of the lift is generated by the wings, by the aerodynamics of the. Of the shape.

[James Reed]

So like those helium balloons we get for our kids parties, you know, they go up and they get stuck in the corner ceiling, so we know they're going to go up.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

And you attach an engine of some sort to that. I mean, obviously in a different manner.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

How does that then travel and how does it land?

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah. So traditionally, airships have operated around neutral buoyancy. So, so that means that they're neither heavier than air nor lighter than air. And they have two, four, six, eight engines on them and that powers the takeoff. And they get up into the, into the sky. And you've got to manage that buoyancy. You've got to manage the buoyancy created by the. By the gas.

[James Reed]

This is like my scuba diving endeavors. You under the water, you're trying to manage your buoyancy.

[Mark Dorey]

Exactly that. And what you don't want to do is, in your example is end up.

[James Reed]

Bobbing up to the top because you.

[Mark Dorey]

Start going up and you carry on going up.

[James Reed]

Exactly.

[Mark Dorey]

So you've got to manage that. That, that weight and buoyancy because if you go too far, the gas expands, the envelope drops and you're in real trouble because then you're coming back down again. So for a long time people thought, well, if you've got this free lift from the, from the helium gas in the envelope, if you, you should be able to build a big envelope and attach to it and you should be able to move that around using a lot less energy than it would take to power a regular jet or a helicopter.

[James Reed]

But is this quite old technology? I mean, I'm just imagining those. We've all seen those pictures of the sort of zeppelins of World War I. Yeah. These were similar things, weren't they?

[Mark Dorey]

Again, you know, those are traditional airships. And I'll come on to the. The difference between. Yeah, that kind of airship and what we're looking at.

[James Reed]

So you're in a new version.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah, a new version. But yes, I mean, the history goes back, the technology is, is old. But you'll also perhaps back in those days, that in Order to land that airship, you had literally hundreds of people grabbing hold of lines that came down from the nose and the tail of the airship. And they would walk it in and they'd moor it to a, to a mast. The most famous mast in the world is the Empire top of the Empire State Building. And that was designed so that was that as an ash.

[James Reed]

I didn't know that. So that was for airships. People dock on it.

[Mark Dorey]

I, I don't believe they ever did. No, I don't. But that's why it was built like that.

[James Reed]

That's so interesting.

[Mark Dorey]

I did not know that. So you. That's the problem that with a big envelope full of helium, you've got to physically hold it down to the ground and then you've got to moor it to a mast which also physically holds it to the ground. And that gives you a problem that if you're offloading or unloading that heavy weight, you take a 20 ton weight off that it wants to disappear rapidly up into the air. So you've got to put an equal amount of ballast on and with an airship on a mast, it will pivot around the mast, it'll kite up and down. So it's a very, very difficult aircra to ground handle.

[James Reed]

So that's so interesting what you were saying about the impasse state. I had no idea that that top of it was built for that purpose. I mean I was just visualized King Kong being attached. I mean, you've mentioned that these airships were used for travel quite widely. Can you tell us a little bit.

[Mark Dorey]

About what was happening very successfully in the 1920s, 30s airships were the first and the fastest way to move across the Atlantic by. By air. And then they went on down to Brazil and there was a, there was a huge amount of luxury. You know, effectively they were luxury liners of the. Of the sky. And then originally In World War I, airships were used for defense and also for. For bombing raids. Airship raids over. Over London. Airships in their heyday were widespread and common and fulfilled a number of different.

[James Reed]

So were the Germans the pioneers of airships?

[Mark Dorey]

To a large extent, yes, but there were other countries. I mean we, we were pioneering in the airship industry as well. The hangar still exists in Cardington where many of the British airships were bu. Germany. The Zeppelin company still produces airships out of Friedrichshafen in southern Germany. So yeah, there are many people still involved.

[James Reed]

So why did they fall out of use, you know, as a travel.

[Mark Dorey]

Well, other things overtook them. So. So literally, you know, literally Aircraft became more common, widespread and could move people faster. And from the technology point of view, traditional airships are more susceptible to, to weather. And there was a move to use hydrogen as a lifting gas, partly because of the lack of availability of, of helium and the freedom which, with which that was shared in the run up to the Second World War. So particularly the Germans started using hydrogen, which is flammable, rather than helium, which is, which is not. And it was seen as a strategic military importance. So there was a reluctance to supply helium to, to Germany at the time.

[James Reed]

Oh, very interesting. That was the sort of end of.

[Mark Dorey]

It, then ran into the Second World War. So, yeah, times moved on. The jet engine was, was invented and things have moved on. And I think we're now looking at a very different type of airship with applications in very different markets. And there's a clear purpose.

[James Reed]

No, clearly. And it's very interesting how it also combines the hollow technology, recycling technology in new ways.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah, I mean there's really very little in the way of new technology. It's just the way it's being put together.

[James Reed]

So not a lot of people have seen the film of the Hindenburg airship disaster. So. So having seen that and wondered about it, why would anyone now get back on an airship?

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah, it's a fair question and one that we're often asked less and less so as people understand the new technology. But first and foremost, that was filled with hydrogen and there were a variety of historic reasons for that. And hydrogen is flammable, whereas modern day airships are filled with, with helium, which actually puts fires out. So that's the fundamental differ. Start with. But airships in general are probably the safest form of flight because of the natural buoyancy from the helium. Even if you had all four engines fail in an airship, you wouldn't just plummet out of the sky, come down at similar speed to a parachute. You don't have to react like you do with an issue with a fixed wing aircraft which relies on forward momentum and some very clever electronics to keep it in the, in the air. The adage for an airship pilot is if you have a problem, do nothing, because you've got time to react and you've got time to work out how to solve the problem. There's a film that you may still be able to find on, on YouTube, not of an airship, but of a tethered helium balloon that broke loose from its moorings. And it was a US military balloon, big, big thing with some very clever wizzy surveillance equipment on it. Yeah, it started floating towards Iran from where it had been more. And so they were very anxious to bring it down. And the film shows a helicopter gunship taking off and firing multiple big rounds into this tethered balloon to try and bring it down as it's floating. And it takes a lot of ammunition to, to bring it to ground a huge amount. And that's, you know, really more than anything else illustrates why airships are particularly particularly safe.

[James Reed]

So an unexpected ad supplied by the Americans for the safety of airships, which we'll take. But yeah, thank you for sharing that, that's very interesting. I'll have a look for that.

[Mark Dorey]

The new airship design is what's called what we call a hybrid airship.

[James Reed]

That's what you're doing now.

[Mark Dorey]

That's what we're doing now. That's the Lockheed design. And there is a company in the UK that's also working on a similar design. The big difference between a traditional cigar shaped airship and the new wider bodied airship is that the wider body is there to deliver that aerodynamic lift. So it's shaped like a wing, so it gets about 80, 60 to 80% of its lift from the helium. But the balance of it comes from the aerodynamic effect as you drive that airship through the air and also with vector thrust from, from the engines. And that means it can operate significantly heavier than air. So when it comes into land, it sits naturally on the ground. You don't need a large crew, you don't need a mast. And that frees you up to do what people have wanted to do for decades, which is move large objects around or heavy objects around to places where there isn't any infrastructure.

[James Reed]

So Mark, so what sort of benefits will businesses see as this becomes more mainstream?

[Mark Dorey]

I think there's a, there's a range of things that the airship delivers on first and foremost, connecting parts of the world that are not connected currently. If you're a business looking to expand your market, your reach, but also doing that in a greener, more sustainable manner, lower fuel emissions, lower infrastructure costs and damage. There's an example where an oil and gas company spent $927 million building a Runway in Papua New guinea to fly Antonov aircraft in and out. And they calculated that they would have saved 900 of that $927 million if they'd had a fleet of airships available. And that's a combination of the, the actual cost of movement, but largely in the, in the, in the lower infrastructure requirements in building that Runway and knocking down two mountains. So on top of that, you know Less, less environmental damage. And, and in general we're cheaper than helicopters, we're cheaper than aircraft in a, in a cost per ton mile. We do everything that, that a helicopter can do, but we do it over a greater range with a greater payload. So linking those places that are other possible to reach or difficult to reach. If you're looking in the Arctic, ice road seasons are getting less reliable. So providing a reliable year round service. So with an ice road you may be able to reach those places for a month, a year. We can operate in the same area for 11 months a year. So there are lots and lots of things that, where we have a significant advantage over existing transport technologies.

[James Reed]

So that's the, that's the problem that your business is seeking to solve.

[Mark Dorey]

Exactly.

[James Reed]

Moving stuff around where there's no infrastructure, no railways, no ports, no roads.

[Mark Dorey]

Exactly, yeah. So you've almost got our tagline there. No roads, no, no railways, no, no airports, no problem.

[James Reed]

So is that what you say? No problem. No problem. Okay, so, so I like the sound of this. So, so what sort of tasks, you know, who wants to do that sort of stuff? Who are your potential customers?

[Mark Dorey]

I mean people are surprised always when I say that around 50% of the world is not connected by traditional. 50. So 50% of the world is not connected by traditional forms of transport, whether that be airports, aircraft, trains, roads, et. That's 50% of the world, both in terms of geographic area and also in terms of population.

[James Reed]

Well, the Sahara Desert must be a large part.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah, I mean, Sahara desert. But you know, if you think about it, large parts of, huge parts of Africa, large parts of, of Asia, Australia, a lot of the islands, so places like Indonesia, Singapore. But then there's large amounts closer to home or close to what we would call, you know, the western world, Northern Canada, massive amount. I mean I flew two hours north of Montre and in a 737 and you're only halfway up Canada and by that stage you've run out of traditional road and rail transport. You've left it way, way behind. Alaska, South America, the Amazon basin, but also large areas of the Amazon. And those people in those communities don't have access to what we would consider everyday things. Whether it's, whether it's hospitals, a medical provision, whether it's, it's food, fruit, vegetables. I mean if you go to. I went to a place called Kujuak.

[James Reed]

Was that in Canada?

[Mark Dorey]

That's in Canada, yeah. And I took a picture of supermarket and, and this was 10 years ago. And I'm going To ask you a question, how much do you think a lettuce costs in the supermarket in Kudrak? Wow.

[James Reed]

It's going to be more than I would imagine.

[Mark Dorey]

Five Canadian dollars, 32 Canadian dollars. And that is all in the transport because it is so difficult to get that kind of thing.

[James Reed]

And you've got many lettuce eaters.

[Mark Dorey]

That's a very good point. You know, I mean people out there, how do they get a hold of things that would, would constitute a good and mixed read. Multiple other issues. Moving waste, getting building materials in. They're restricted to the ice road season which with climate change is getting less and less reliable. I mean even in a good year it's six to eight weeks.

[James Reed]

So the ice road seasons, when it's frozen.

[Mark Dorey]

When it's frozen, you can drive across. You can drive across road truckers.

[James Reed]

Well, that's a huge area of a planet. Is it northern Canada, parts of Russia that are sort of frozen or semi.

[Mark Dorey]

Frozen for absolutely massive, you know, now I mean we've talk to people and you ask, you know, it could be people with existing facilities up there, you know, mines and that kind of thing. It could be cleanup operations, it could be all sorts of people. It could be medical treatment.

[James Reed]

I was thinking you could almost take a sort of ready made medical center on the airship and put it down somewhere and if it had its own power source, you could plug it in and go. And you'd be able to provide quite a good. Is that Something you're nodding?

[Mark Dorey]

Absolutely. 100.

[James Reed]

I thought that would be a very useful application for people in all sorts of remote parts of the.

[Mark Dorey]

Absolutely 100%. We've got a partner called Rad Aid. Rad Aid, a UN backed NGO with over 10,000 volunteers in the radiology sphere. And again, radiology equipment is heavy, it's bulky, it's sensitive. So the airship provides an ideal way of moving that around. So we've been working with them and their partners looking at how we can transport containerized units and drop them off in villages and provide those services. So that's one of the many, many things moving vaccines, you know, a topical Covid. How do you move, how do you move vaccines? How do you provide people with basic medical cover that can't, don't have access to hospitals, cancer treatment.

[James Reed]

You know what I'm thinking though is these are distances that are too far for helicopters or places that are too difficult to access.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

In that way. So. And you can carry a lot more than that.

[Mark Dorey]

Absolutely.

[James Reed]

And you don't need a Runway to Land. What do you need to land a field?

[Mark Dorey]

I mean we can do vertical takeoff and landing with a slightly reduced payload and unprepared head piece of ground. We can land on water, snow, ice, anything with an obstacle up to about, about a meter in height because underneath. And this is the key part of the Lockheed design which makes it different. You've got three hovercraft landing pads. So literally hovercraft designed and built.

[James Reed]

So it really is across between an aircraft seafaring.

[Mark Dorey]

So these, these air cushion landing systems allow the aircraft to maneuver on the ground. It can pivot on its own axis, it's hugely powerful. But on.

[James Reed]

But these aren't ready yet. We can't go quite ready yet.

[Mark Dorey]

There's a certification program with the faa, so that's underway.

[James Reed]

So in the States they're doing.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah, but the key is that you put the, what we call ACLS air cushion landing system into reverse thrust and that sucks the airship down to the ground and provides further stability. So you've got a really stable aircraft. And so all of the problems typically associated with the traditional airship that I mentioned earlier have now been removed by a clever piece of engineering designed by the team, a Lockheed.

[James Reed]

That's so interesting. I'd like to go back, Mark, a little bit, I mean, because you've been involved in aviation a long time. I mean, tell us a bit about your early career and how you got into this in the first place, because that's interesting.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah, no, well, it depends a little bit how far you want to go.

[James Reed]

Back, but go back to the beginning of your aviation.

[Mark Dorey]

So I graduated just down the road at the, the LSC and trained at Coopers and Library just down the road in that direction. And really I saw accountancy as a means to an end. And it's a great business qualification. It gives you a, a great foundation and understanding, some technical tools and knowledge. Yeah.

[James Reed]

Young people listening. I would endorse that accountancy is a good way of learning about business. One of my sons has just done.

[Mark Dorey]

Brilliant. Fantastic. No, so, but I never saw myself staying in, in the accountancy field. It was, it was a springboard to get into, into business and accelerate progression in that regard. So I left pretty much as soon as I qualified. I went to work in sales promotion, advertising as a financial controller. So still retaining the, the financial aspect. But it, the, that was a, was a, in some ways a baptism file.

[James Reed]

You work in an ad agency working.

[Mark Dorey]

In a sales promotion agency called klp. You may have come across them a long time ago and it was it was brilliant. I mean for a young, slightly green, wet behind the ears accountant to go out into that kind of world. And I really enjoyed it. I looked after a division of about 12 companies, small subsidiaries and that propelled me into the. Into the commercial world.

[James Reed]

Propelled you. So come on let's, let's take that word propelled you. So sales promotion. Then what you started sticking things on balloons.

[Mark Dorey]

Pepsi which gave me some international experience. And then I joined Virgin and, and.

[James Reed]

Obviously famous for ballooning. So he ballooned across the Atlantic.

[Mark Dorey]

He ballooned across the Atlantic and, and the Pacific as well. And then that was a project managed by my partner, business partner, Mike Kendrick. And then he was attempting to fly around the world right. In a balloon.

[James Reed]

I don't remember what happened on that one.

[Mark Dorey]

Didn't quite make him. Was being to the punch in. In the end by some. Somebody. Somebody else.

[James Reed]

Someone else went around somebody.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah. So joined Virgin Airship and Balloon Company.

[James Reed]

So it must have been really exciting. You know you had these great sort of missions to sort of deliver.

[Mark Dorey]

It was fantastic. But also just growing the commercial business. So.

[James Reed]

So what was the.

[Mark Dorey]

What was the commercial model principally? Advertising.

[James Reed]

So not sticking things on balloons.

[Mark Dorey]

Exactly that. So. So we had a fleet of hot air balloons many of which were special shapes so they could be designed to. We had Sonic the Hedgehog if you remember the old computer.

[James Reed]

I'm just thinking good year was always a good year.

[Mark Dorey]

Was an. An airship. They did have some, some hot air.

[James Reed]

A lot of virgin balloons on the M40.

[Mark Dorey]

A lot of virgin balloons. Those are passenger carrying balloons rather.

[James Reed]

But you see them in the summer and a nice evening.

[Mark Dorey]

Absolutely. And I and I set up that franchise network back in the. Back in the day. But. And then the airships. Yeah. So traditional cigar shaped envelope airships flying for people like Goodyear. We flew in 35 countries. What else did you have about that? Oh Sanyo, Budweiser. Many of the. We launched orange in this country.

[James Reed]

What was the appeal to land? I mean how did you sell. You know, why don't you stick your name on an airship? I mean how did you make that work for the. The advertiser?

[Mark Dorey]

The key was delivering more bang for your buck than somebody would get buying buying newspaper advertising or poster sites. And. And we did that by putting cameras on the airship. So the airships were used to cover major sporting events and other. And other events and we. We take them on a stage. Sweet sit above. So we, we pionee of aerial cameras for things like the Premier League for horse racing Channel for horse racing in this country. We used to do Monday Night Football, as it's called in this, in the, in the states and many of the, many of the NFL games and so on. And in return for providing the camera platform free of charge, the broadcaster would agree to give us a certain number of ground to air shots during the course of the so and there's a lot of debate about the relative value, but those, those, that exposure was during the program. Program. So your brand was seen as being associated and contributing to the sporting event rather than, okay, the adverts have come on now I'm going to go into the kitchen and switch. So it's more integrated into those. It was much more integrated. And we would encourage our clients to do a survey and value the media that they got. We didn't even count the ground, you know, people seeing it from the ground. But we would come back at the end of the year and demonstrate to them that they'd got five, ten times more media exposure than they would have done spending the equivalent amount on, on traditional advertising. I add to that customer entertainment, you know, supplier entertainment. People want to fly in airships, people want to fly in hot air balloons. And it engages with people and creates a real, real buzz. So the brands used to come back year after year. I mean most of our airships are on long term contract of, you know, multiple year contracts and very successful for those companies.

[James Reed]

So that was, that was the business model then. So you, you move from that to sort of more, more deliveries.

[Mark Dorey]

Yes. Yeah.

[James Reed]

So that was with your new venture.

[Mark Dorey]

So.

[James Reed]

So who's your business partner?

[Mark Dorey]

Mike Kendrick founded the Virgin Airship ruling company with Richard Branson and I've known Mike since I joined him in 1993 and we've worked together for the last 32 years more on than off. We have had a few, few breaks in the, in the middle, but more on, more on than off.

[James Reed]

And he's now what, chairman?

[Mark Dorey]

He's now chairman and I'm CEO. So. So we've kind of.

[James Reed]

You've worked together a long time.

[Mark Dorey]

We've worked y often joke we've been together longer than most married couples.

[James Reed]

So how's that still. Still get on?

[Mark Dorey]

Absolutely. I mean, you know, I think that's. We, we've got very different skills. We come from different backgrounds and we complement each other and have.

[James Reed]

Well, that's important in a business, in any partnership, I suppose. Yeah, yeah, that's important.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah. A lot of our success that you combine the, the vision, that entrepreneurial flare with a, a more, perhaps a more formal business background and yeah, we we've been very successful.

[James Reed]

When did you line?

[Mark Dorey]

So we started about 10 years ago now. We were invited by a number of the manufacturers and developers of the, this new heavy lift technology, if I can call it that in the, in the broadest sense, but airship based heavy lift technology who recognized two things. One is most importantly that the end use customers didn't want to buy and own and operate their own aircraft. I mean they don't want to buy and own and operate a helicopter lesser wall an airship which they don't understand. So the companies that were develop developing them said okay well how do we plug that that well let's go and talk to Mike and Mark and see if they're interested in coming back into the industry. And and so that's what we did and we did a lot of due diligence and we looked at all the different designs that are out there in the market and for the time being we've honed in on the Lockheed design as being most fit for purpose because of the, the things I mentioned, the air cushion landing system, the design of the, the wing, et cetera, et cetera.

[James Reed]

This is a slow burn. I mean it was a long time big investment. I imagine it is.

[Mark Dorey]

I mean you know people across the industry have spen money developing these aircraft. But things in aviation do take a long time. You know, it takes a long time to certify aircraft to design, to develop. Particularly when you're looking at something which is, which is relatively new, albeit that it combines known and existing technologies, it still takes time to, to get that done.

[James Reed]

Patient capital do you, you need patient.

[Mark Dorey]

Capital people who are passionate about the, the project. Most of the people that we have involved from an investment standpoint have an interest, many of them strategic partners in different parts of the world. So Ron Hyde in Alaska with his company PRL would be a, would be a good example of that. So people who see and understand the markets and understand the use cases and people that have really want to see us succeed and want to see the technology succeed in the Middle East. We've got an investor based in Kuwait, Abdurrahman Alisa. He has a vision of moving freight in and out of the region from Africa and in and out of Europe. You know, it's about finding good people and people that, that, that are there for the long haul.

[James Reed]

So these are people who as well as investors are potential customers, potential partners.

[Mark Dorey]

And or customers more more partners because they have, you know, so, so Ron in Alaska has a logistics business. So he would handle the oil and Gas company or the government contract, but we would provide the airship technology to, to deliver.

[James Reed]

How long did it take you to sort of get this idea up and running? You know, when you obviously left Virgin and he wanted to do this, was that a difficult process or do you have people saying, we want this or how did it come about?

[Mark Dorey]

From our point of view, I suppose we were more reactive, having been. We'd seen the original hybrid design launched in the UK up at Carlington Hangers near Bedfordshire back in the early 2000s, designed by a guy called Roger Monk, and we could see the potential. But as I say, it takes a long time for those ideas to come through and get to a point where they're close enough to delivery, they're close enough to reality to, for us as an operator to come in and start talking. But since then we talked with a lot of customers. You know, we've had conversations with significantly over 100 end use customers in all parts of the world. And so we've qualified the demand for the airship in many, many different, different areas, both geographically and in, in the sense of different markets. So all that work has been going on during the last, you know, eight, nine, ten years as we, as we've moved forward and we're now ready to launch. We put an order in for the first airship. Then our next phase is to build out the operations team. We've got key people already in place and lined up and to move forward with the business development.

[James Reed]

So if there are people who are listening, who are interested, who want to be part of this, where do they find you? Mark, what's your email or not your email, your web address.

[Mark Dorey]

Easiest fun, you can find us all on our website, which is straight line aviation.com that will give you the details about the airship and the technology and who we are and our background. So whether you know, whether you're a potential customer or business partner or whether you have somebody who likes the sound of what we're doing and potential investor, then yeah, please, by all means, get in, get in touch and love to have a chat.

[James Reed]

That's great. So how many airships do you imagine you might be running in the future? What's your sort of vision for that? Is there a great fleet?

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah, great. I mean, it's a great question. I mean, there have been a number of independent market surveys done by renowned and esteemed management consultants and interestingly they, they've all come up with a number around 500 aircraft using completely different assumptions. There's partial overlap, but there's not a complete Overlap in how they see the market. If you look at the customer inquiries that we've had, as I say, we've spoken to well over 100 serious people and many of those have use for multiple airships, acting often as a road bridge or an air bridge, I should say connect, connecting, you know, point A with point B directly. So we think that that's wildly underestimated. I mean we could probably tot up over 500 potential orders already. And bearing in mind that when, when it goes into production, you're looking at a production numbers of about a dozen a year in the first instance, you can see that demand wildly exceeds the, the supply side of things certainly does.

[James Reed]

So, yeah. So you'll have the first one.

[Mark Dorey]

We have the ordering for the first one. We got some ideas about where that's going to go. And before we get to the, the commercial deployment, you won't be surprised to hear this. We're planning on flying non stop around the world, which will be the, the launch and the marketing platform and also raise a lot of awareness and, and support charities in doing that. So we're excited about that. It's going to be easier than flying around in a, in a hot air balloon because you've got a couple of engines to take you where you want to go, but nevertheless, it's quite few. A challenge.

[James Reed]

Why is it a challenge technically?

[Mark Dorey]

What's the. Because you still, you still need to have the assistance and work with the, the weather systems around the world. So you've got to pick a good time. And so if you were flying into a headwind all around the world, you, you wouldn't make it. You just can't carry enough fuel right. To do it. So you've still got an element which means that you've got to plan and manage that, that process. It's the balance between the, the payload and the, and the distance you're flying. Temperature, altitude, there's that, that they come into the picture.

[James Reed]

That's fantastic.

[Mark Dorey]

I look forward to hearing all about that.

[James Reed]

That'd be a fantastic thing to do. So headwinds, they apply in all sorts of ways in business?

[Mark Dorey]

Yes, indeed.

[James Reed]

We don't want headwinds.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

So you once worked for Richard Branson, obviously for some time.

[Mark Dorey]

Yes. Yeah.

[James Reed]

What did you learn from him in terms of what you've carried on into your entrepreneurial endeavors as an entrepreneur?

[Mark Dorey]

You know, first and foremost, I think when you, when you meet Richard for the, for the first time, the thing that hits you is his, his energy and enthusias and I think that's something that is entirely relevant to whatever business you're running. You know, if you, if you've got that passion, you've got that drive, then you're going to succeed. You know, I can be as blunt as that. I'm not saying if you don't have it, you won't succeed, but certainly if you've got that, you've got a much bigger and better chance of succeeding. Clearly, he's known for injecting a lot of fun into the places that he, that he works, and I think that's, you know, important. It's got to be tempered, particularly when you're in aviation. You know, it's a serious business, but.

[James Reed]

You know, he's done that very successfully.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah. There's no doubt that if people are enjoying themselves, they perform better, they stick around longer. And in that sense, it's also easier to find, recruit, and retain good people. So finding those people, finding people that are going to take that vision on, I, I think is absolutely key to what Richard's done, certainly historically. And then empowering those people to get on and giving them the, the opportunity to make decisions, to back them when they make those decisions, to support that engenders, again, an ownership in, in what you're, what you're doing. So not being afraid to make a decision. You've got to make decisions. In life, if you don't make a decision, you're gonna. You're gonna fail. Sure. But a lot of places, you know, in places that I've worked, people who make decisions are setting themselves up for criticism, that you get the finger pointed at you. The blame culture. Okay, well, and then what happens is everybody ducks their head down by the, below the parapet and nothing happens. Right. You know, it's, oh, it's me. Oh, well, I emailed them, and then they, they, they haven't done it. And so if you can empower people and get them to, you know, and by, by doing that, they take ownership, then you deliver. I think there's a, A sort of slight misnomer that people talk about customer service and they imagine that Virgin's all about customer service, which it is, but it's customer service driven by the fact that the individual people in the organization, no matter where you are, are responsible and given the, the headroom to deliver. And that's why you get, why you get good customer service because you've got good, good staff.

[James Reed]

Richard Branson, you're saying, was very good then at delegating decision making to the people in the very front.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Reed]

Customer facing rules.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Reed]

And how did they do that? I mean, how did they stop the finger pointing, let's get my head down sort of approach?

[Mark Dorey]

I think because it's almost become self policing that if you get somebody in an organization that does behave like that, they don't stay around for very long because the other people won't wear it. It's a double edged sword in that, in that sense. And I think you've got a balance, balance that responsibility with authority. Richard was never a great one for large scale analysis and reams of business plans and pages of numbers which, coming from an accountancy background, you think, oh gosh, we must produce a, you know, and he'd say, look, just put it on two pages and if I, if it doesn't sound good to me when I've read two pages, then we'll move on and try.

[James Reed]

Just put it on two pages.

[Mark Dorey]

Just put it on two pages and that's it.

[James Reed]

Well, I think Churchill insisted on one page, but. Yeah, one page, two pages, but no more than that. Yeah, yeah, I, it's like a cv really.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Don't want more than that.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

So you, you then transitioned sort of from Virgin to start your own business with your business partner. So you went from employee to entrepreneur. Yeah, I know this is a journey lots of people consider. And what did you learn from that and what were the pros and cons? What was on your mind when you made that leap and how's it worked out?

[Mark Dorey]

It's worked out very well and we wouldn't be where we are now today if I hadn't made that jump. I think the biggest thing is, and it is quite scary, you suddenly remove the safety net. You're working for a, for an organization with some size. You know, it's got the financial clout and then in Richard, in Virgin's case, the brand to back you up and back those decisions. And you've got a team of people around you, you know, you've got people who are specialists in different fields and you can, you can delegate and then suddenly you go and you've set up your own business and you've got to do everything. I mean we were always very hands on and I would like to think that I rolled my sleeves up and.

[James Reed]

Got stuck in no IT help desk, for instance, which would worry me.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah, absolutely. You've got to do it yourself and, and sometimes it can feel like you, because of that you're making slower progress than you. You would like. Because Normally you'd have 10 people who'd all be scaring. Then a week later you'd have the, the decision out. Now you've got to, you've got to generate that yourself with smaller team. So you've got to be adaptable. You've got to work with people who have a similar, similar mindset. But at the same time, you've got to be very clear about your focus and, and what you're trying to achieve.

[James Reed]

When you said, you know, there's no safety net, the word that came to my mind was, you have to have some courage. Yes, well, without safety net, you know, you've got to step forward and, and do so with some courage, energy and vigor to make things happen.

[Mark Dorey]

Believe in yourself and you've got to believe in the team around you.

[James Reed]

Yeah, but courage isn't a gift. I mean, because there are still, you'd still be acutely aware that things can go wrong. Of course, you know, you're on the high wire and you don't want to fall off.

[Mark Dorey]

Exactly.

[James Reed]

But it does require some guts, I think, to go out and start something.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah, I think, I think it does. I think any. I mean, and hats off to anybody who's, who's thinking of trying it. I mean, I would say the rewards are there, but also, you shouldn't be afraid of failure. You know, again, going back to the example with Richard, you know, Richard set up many businesses which didn't succeed.

[James Reed]

You'd have trouble finding a virgin cola these days.

[Mark Dorey]

Well, Virgin Cola, remember the condom business and virgin fashion and perfume and a.

[James Reed]

Lot of things, which is what you've got to do.

[Mark Dorey]

You've got to, you've got to do it. And as I say, you've got to pick yourself up, dust yourself off and go again if it doesn't work. And, and that's the same with, with us in the airship business. We haven't had the failures, but what we, what we have had is to adapt to changing circumstances and move forward. And, and you know what are the most disappointing? We raised a lot of money in China to move that, move the business forward and meet what Lockheed was setting his objectives at the time. And then Donald Trump in his last administration decided to have a go at the Chinese and put tariffs in place and the whole deal fell over and there was nothing we could do about it. And you think, oh, God, I literally spent probably 8, 10 weeks in the last iteration sitting in a hotel in, in Hong Kong negotiating the deal and we got it all signed and everything else. And then, you know, they turn around and say, sorry, you know, Global political.

[James Reed]

So how do you feel about that? I mean, so you say you've got to get going, you've got to find some other, you've then got an avenue.

[Mark Dorey]

You'Ve got to take stock and look at different avenues and re. Engage with people that, that you think will be interested in taking that business and working with us to take the business forward. You know, there was a lot of things that had to then be reassessed. Lockheed reassessed, where they stood, you know, and all of this takes time and all of this is outside side of our, our control. You've got to be patient and say you've got to have that, that resilience.

[James Reed]

But the environment's very unpredictable, isn't it? At the moment especially it seems to be with lots of new technologies coming on.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Lots of disruption.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

And yours is quite a long project.

[Mark Dorey]

Yes.

[James Reed]

With a big vision.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Is that, I mean, that's difficult, isn't it? In, in an environment where, which is essentially quite chaotic.

[Mark Dorey]

It is, but I think the fundamentals remain unchanged. You know, there's a huge demand for the airship out there. There's a, you know, a great customer base. We know what the, where the markets are. We've got a supportive investor base and you know, we're engaged with, with people. We've set up our, largely set up our network of partners around the world.

[James Reed]

So yeah, you need to be patient. You're very clear in your objective and you keep going towards it.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah, exactly that. Yeah.

[James Reed]

One of our guests said, you know, the bigger the goal, the smaller the problem, you know. Well, I think, I think in a way that feels like this is the case.

[Mark Dorey]

I think that's absolute case. I mean, you know, people often ask me, well, you know, why do you stick at it? And I, and I think the answer is that there are very few things that come across your desk where you really feel that you could be involved in something that will make a huge difference to the world. And I don't want to overstate it, but if you look at the potential to reduce carbon emissions both in terms of operations and in terms of infrastructure, so not having to build roads and rail links in places like Canada where you've got, you know, beautiful wilderness, and improving the social and economic well being for the communities and the people in those regions, connecting them to the world, you know, this is something which could be transformative. We've done a lot of work with the United nations and the airship can help deliver something like 17 of the 19 strategic development goals of the UN and they identify a lack of transport connectivity as one of the major, or if not the major impediment to growth. So this is a global business and as you say, it's too great to give. Give up on.

[James Reed]

Yeah, no, I'm very clear that you're not going to give up on it. From what you've been saying and your obvious enthusiasm and passion for it. What would you say to entrepreneurs who, who maybe have been working through a vision of this, not the same, but some for years and, and have yet to break through. You know, your first flight is not, is yet to happen.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

But there will be people in all sorts of lines of work who are perhaps on the car sport think that they've got further to go.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

What words of wisdom would you share with them?

[Mark Dorey]

I'd steal something from Karen Billamoria who I had speak some years ago and he, he was in the process of developing Cobra Bear.

[James Reed]

Yeah, I know Karen, he's a good guy. Yeah. But what did he say?

[Mark Dorey]

And he said, you know, in the path that, that he took and bearing in mind how successful it's been, he said there will be three or four times when you think this is going to fail, whether it's financing, whatever it is. And he said you've just, you've just got to push through this, those moments and believe in what you're doing and you, and you will get through, you will find a way of getting through it. I think the other thing is you do, you know, to temper that you do have to be realistic. You've got to know and, and you've got to have a real sense that there is a demand for what it is that you're trying to, trying to build. And I would caution people, you know, just jumping into things that, where they don't have the expertise and perhaps they haven't done their, their market due diligence because on the other hand you can waste a lot of time if you know there's a demand out there and you know what you're doing is going to be game changing, then, then you will find a way and people will be there to support you.

[James Reed]

Well, so, I mean it's a sort of eyes open perseverance. Yes.

[Mark Dorey]

That's required. Yeah, yeah. I mean there are a lot of people in the airship industry who have missed completely the operational aspects of their, their design. So they're heading off in, in directions where we think they've, that, you know, they've got their design wrong, but they're passionate about what they're doing and time, time will tell, but you've got to understand what it is technically in, in particularly in aviation that you're trying to deliver.

[James Reed]

So airships in general, it sounds like, are about to make quite a big comeback. You've got other people developing them and.

[Mark Dorey]

Absolutely, yeah. I think this could be a big.

[James Reed]

Thing for the next 25 years.

[Mark Dorey]

Potential for airships, I mean, not least, I mean, we've talked about significantly reducing the carbon footprint with the hybrid airship as it stands. But the hybrid airship is also on the path to true zero emissions. Aviation. So whether it's zero net emissions using sustainable aviat fuel or whether it's use of hydrogen fuel cells battery technology to power the airships, the airships are uniquely capable. They don't have the same kind of payload penalty that a fixed swing aircraft or a helicopter would have. They don't have the same volume issues. So you can, you can see the airship being very much on the path to developing.

[James Reed]

So potentially it's the first true zero flying vehicle.

[Mark Dorey]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why a lot of people are interested. You know, it's, it's a reduction in, in the carbon footprint is being able to, to access places without destroying the environment, to give people that opportunity in a sustainable and manageable way.

[James Reed]

Oh, I wish you every success with that. So, so the last sort of theme I want to pick up on you. You, you said you'd work with Mike.

[Mark Dorey]

Yes.

[James Reed]

Your co founder for many years, longer than many marriages. I just want to explore that because, you know, some people go into business on their own, some people go into business with family members, siblings, things, you know, father and son, mother and daughter, whatever. You've gone into business with someone you'd work with before.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

You said you complement each other. What are the sort of pros and cons of that route?

[Mark Dorey]

I think it's, it's always great to work with people who have complementary skills because it's rare that you find somebody who doesn't benefit from input from, from other people and other perspectives, other thoughts and other thought processes. So it's a relationship of mutual respect and we're all the time testing each other and, and developing ideas. We don't always agree.

[James Reed]

So what happens then? Yeah. When you don't agree?

[Mark Dorey]

Oh, you know, we can, we can have the odd argument.

[James Reed]

But how do you make a decision if you want to go this way and he wants go that way?

[Mark Dorey]

I think we just go back, revisit it. We think about what the other person said. We amass arguments to support our point of view or we realize that.

[James Reed]

But you have to be prepared to change your mind.

[Mark Dorey]

You have to be prepared to change your mind. Absolutely.

[James Reed]

Absolutely. There'll be occasions when you go back and say, Mike. Yeah, I think you were right.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah, absolutely. And vice versa, you know, I mean, I've.

[James Reed]

You're the CEO.

[Mark Dorey]

I'm the.

[James Reed]

Yeah, I'm the exact chat.

[Mark Dorey]

He's exec chair.

[James Reed]

So that's kind of. You kind of like. I'm the chairman and CEO. So I argue with myself.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah, I think it's that process. I mean, we've been more on than off. We've worked together for 32 years now, coming up to 32 years. So we know each other. We know each other well. We understand each other. We understand what our relative strengths and weaknesses are.

[James Reed]

And would you be friends socially or not?

[Mark Dorey]

We tend not to socialize together. We do, but. Yeah, I think it would be too. Too much. You know, we're very happy socializing together, and we have done on many famous occasions. But, but I think if you, if you spend.

[James Reed]

You don't live in the same village. You need to give each other some space.

[Mark Dorey]

It would be, you know, too much if you were, you know, they're together for 18 hours a day or whatever. Yeah.

[James Reed]

No, I think that's what's interesting because in a business partnership like yours, that is different from a family situation. Situation.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

I wouldn't say you're so shocked, but you're kind of with each other a lot.

[Mark Dorey]

Yes.

[James Reed]

And you sort of discuss business over lunch or whatever.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

You can. You have some space. But obviously a very long standing, successful working partnership.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah, I know. I've learned a huge amount from Mike over the, over the years, and I like to think he might have learned a few things from me as well.

[James Reed]

He would say he has. I mean, otherwise you wouldn't still be working together.

[Mark Dorey]

Really.

[James Reed]

I don't think. I don't think. But I think any valuable relationship is one in which we're learning.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

So you've also developed sort of good partnerships with international businesses, corporations who've obviously got to know and trust you. So what, what's your strategy for negotiating and maintaining those partnerships? How do you. How do you sort of develop?

[Mark Dorey]

And for me it's about. About trust, particularly when you're dealing with a new technology. People have to trust you as a, as a. As an individual schedule to deliver what you say you're going because it's a vision. When all said and done. Now we can point at FAA you know, design criteria and, and all sorts of things to back that up. But at the end of the day, they've got to look you in the eye and believe that you're going to do what you say you're going to do. And I think that's the most important thing. I think for me, what I would call the old school adversarial nature of negotiations is, is certainly not appropriate in what we're trying to do. You're looking for common solutions. You're looking to understand the problem that somebody's come to you with and you're looking to build a solution that will work for them. And, and they've got to be convinced that you are capable and you understand what their, their issues are and you're capable of delivering that. That's the way I've always looked at negotiations. Not just, you know, in the current iteration, but I'm more of a collaborative negotiator than I am an adversarial negotiator.

[James Reed]

Well, if you want to see people again, that's usually a good idea, isn't it? I mean, it's got to work for both parts. Unless it's just a transaction when you walk away away anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that sort of zero.

[Mark Dorey]

You are, you know, whether it's a customer you are or whether it's a partner, but you're hoping that somebody's going to join you and build something together and that you're going to provide a solution for, for their requirements. And I think that's where, you know, you gain respect and support and, and it may not work out. You know, you may find that, that, that it just doesn't work. I mean, I had somebody pick up the phone Monday or email, email me on Monday. I hadn't spoken to them for probably two and a half years and they said, oh, we carried on working on the project and we'd like to sit down and revisit and we may have a need for five, six, seven airships. If we got into the sort of, well, why aren't you signing, you know, signing up now? Then they probably, you know, they may never have picked up the phone again. So you've got to enter the, the process not expecting that somebody's going to jump the first time in the first conversation. So again, it goes back to that, that element of patience because things take time to evolve and things.

[James Reed]

How many conversations would you say in your experience? You've done sales and I think there.

[Mark Dorey]

Are, there are stages. First of all, you can tell very quickly whether we're going to be able to offer a solution that's, that's economically viable relatively quickly. Secondly, you can, you can tell if the person's serious or not and they have the capacity to, to do their side and what they want to do. I, I wouldn't like to put a number on number conversation. So what, we've got a mining client, potential client on the, on the mining side. We've been talking to them for three years. Right. You know, and we've had regular communications during that time. We've looked at a number of different projects. We are now one of their approved logistics solutions. But they don't have a project where the airship fits at the moment. So we will carry on talking and at some point they will come back. But there are other people who you can have half a dozen conversations with and you know there's a match and you know that they've got the desire. The hardest ones are governments and quasi governmental organizations. So we've been talking to people down in Brazil and I've been down in Brazil and there's no doubt there's a, there's a massive role for the airship in, in that part of the world. But things take time. It's by their very nature. It involves a lot of people. We're not the end project so you know, we've got to talk to people and find the project that fits with, with what the airship can.

[James Reed]

You're one of the inverts.

[Mark Dorey]

We are, yeah. The Swiss army knife of the, of the air, as I told you.

[James Reed]

I like that. So what was your slogan again? No plane, no problem.

[Mark Dorey]

No roads, no rail, no. No run Runway, no problem.

[James Reed]

No roads, no rail, no Runway, no problem. I like that. Yeah, that's very good. So lastly, if you're a business owner and you're looking out for selecting a business partner or collaborating with larger companies and you've done both, you know, very significantly. What should you be looking out for? What, what should be on your checklist?

[Mark Dorey]

That's a, that's a tough one again and I don't want to keep coming back and, and giving, giving the same answer. But, but I think particularly with any business partner you've got to go in with a view to forming a long term relationship. And if you're doing that, there has to be shared vision, there has to be an idea of shared values, there has to be a trust. And I think that's particularly important if you're a relatively small company and you're dealing with a, with a much larger company. I mean There have been times I've felt that my dimensionals have been in a vice. You know, you're sitting between one multinational here and you're sitting, you know, next to another one on the other side and you're the, you're the guy in, in the middle being squeezed. You've got to take a, a pragmatic view at the, at the same time and understand that that may, may happen. It's your decision whether you, you see that through, whether what you're being offered makes sense for you. So you can always walk away. You have to establish and you know, whatever I've done, whether it was back in the virgin days or, or otherwise being interested in working with people who we felt we could work with for a long time.

[James Reed]

So you're looking for that long term relationship. But I like your, you said shared vision, shared values and trust. Yeah, it's trying to sort of get underneath the bonnet to establish those. Have we got a shared vision here, I suppose, or do I trust these people? I mean, have you got any tips on how to do that?

[Mark Dorey]

You've got to look first and foremost at the person you're dealing with. You know, do you trust that individual? Firstly, yeah.

[James Reed]

And is that something. It's got feel.

[Mark Dorey]

It's, I think it is very often gut feel. I mean you can do a lot of research nowadays on the Internet. You can see what, what people's track records are. You can see what organizations track records are. It doesn't take a lot.

[James Reed]

You're looking me right in the eye when you said that.

[Mark Dorey]

I'm wondering if that's what you, you probably do of a lot, lot of it yourself.

[James Reed]

I've always tried to assess that. It's a big, it's probably the biggest question in business.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Do I trust this person? Do I trust this relationship?

[Mark Dorey]

Exactly. And, and if you're, if you're taking a job, you've got to, you've got to look at the company you're joining and think, you know, is this somewhere I'm going to be happy in the long run and is it some, somewhere I'm going to be working with, with people who I can, who I can trust and believe in. And it's the same with, with partnerships. You know, one of, one of our greatest partnerships is with, on Hyde up in, in Alaska and, and there's a, there's a shared vision, there's a mutual respect. We're not experts, world experts and everything. So we, we, we have to rely on local partners. You know, if we're Going to operate in Alaska. We need people who have operated in Alaska to work with. We're not arrogant enough to, to turn up in the middle of the Amazon and say we know all the answers. We need people who know that part of the world because it's that information that's going to combine with our experience and knowledge and turn into a success, successful and safe business.

[James Reed]

Well, Alaska, Amazon, Kuwait, I mean, they're going to be very, very different, aren't they? They're going to have very different needs and requirements. So having important partners in. But I like your, your emphasis on shared vision, shared values and, and trust. And I, and I, I like the point you made as well about. That's the same when you're getting a job.

[Mark Dorey]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

You know, as a person applying to a business, you know, you should as an individual establish those things. Is this a trustworthy organization?

[Mark Dorey]

Personal crossroads. When I had an offer from Vir, an offer from News International.

[James Reed]

Did you.

[Mark Dorey]

And one was to stay in London, one was to go to. To Shropshire, which is what took me up there in the first place. And moving, moved up from London and, and that's what it came down to. It's, it's.

[James Reed]

So you were weighing up those two.

[Mark Dorey]

Companies, those two companies and saying, where do I feel at home and where, where do I really believe. Where do I believe that I'm going to?

[James Reed]

Branson in one hand and Murdoch in the other.

[Mark Dorey]

Which one, which one are you going to choose? And which one do you, do you feel you can contribute? And you chose Brans and I chose Branson.

[James Reed]

That was a better fit for you. But lots of people choose Rupert Murdoch and I've done quite well.

[Mark Dorey]

Absolutely. That's no disrespect. No, no, quite.

[James Reed]

But it's kind of a personal decision. That's it. I mean, different people fit better in different places. Different footballers play better in different teams.

[Mark Dorey]

Absolutely.

[James Reed]

I observe that a lot.

[Mark Dorey]

Absolutely.

[James Reed]

Yeah. There's some, some places better for some than others. That's fantastic. Can you repeat your slogan for me?

[Mark Dorey]

I'm gonna, I'm gonna say something different this time.

[James Reed]

I can remember.

[Mark Dorey]

No, no. No roads, no rail, no Runway, no. No runways. No problem.

[James Reed]

So I like that. I like that. Well, thank you. So talk to me about this wonderful, wonderful vision adventure that you have in development. I look forward to seeing your airships far and wide. Maybe I'll get to riding.

[Mark Dorey]

You certainly will.

[James Reed]

I like that very much. And I always ask two questions at the end, which I ask everybody. The first is there's a clue. You Know, what is it that gets you up on a Monday morning? That's my first question. You want to have a go at that?

[Mark Dorey]

I think in some months I've already really answered that. And that is, you know, you get up in the morning and I get up in the morning because I feel what we're doing as a, as a company and as a team is, is important and potentially, you know, has the ability to transform the way we move things around the world and, and transform the lives of people that are less fortunate and less well off than we are. I'll give an example to that. And it's actually an example that Mike uses quite often because he's himself suffered from, from, from cancer. If we take our mobile radiology equipment with rad aid up to the north of Canada, then we can deliver services like cancer screening. And I sat on a plane and coming back from a remote part of Canada and the lady sitting next to me was pregnant and had some complications in her pregnancy. She'd flown two hours to get to the plane that I was on in a light aircraft to fly two hours to get to Montreal just to have a scan. And you think, you know, these are things we take for granted. That transformative ability is, is something that, you know, if you can't get up in the morning to, to work on that, then you might not be getting up at all. Exactly.

[James Reed]

All right, well that's good to hear. That's good to hear.

[Mark Dorey]

And then my five years time, you know.

[James Reed]

Yeah. I want to ask you, where do you see yourself in five years?

[Mark Dorey]

We'll have a fleet, fleet of airships.

[James Reed]

A fleet of air.

[Mark Dorey]

We'll have a fleet of airships and we'll be operating those airships and, and, and delivering what we've set out to deliver whether, wherever that is in, in the world.

[James Reed]

Fantastic. Well, I, I look forward to seeing the fleet in flight.

[Mark Dorey]

That'd be great.

[James Reed]

Good luck with that.

[Mark Dorey]

Thank you very much.

[James Reed]

Thank you for coming.

[Mark Dorey]

Appreciate it.

[James Reed]

Good talking to you. Thank you, Mark, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reid, Mark and Straight Line Aviation, all links are in the show notes. See you next time.