37. From hitting rock bottom to building a global brand from scratch | Matthew Jones, The King of Doughnuts - James Reed: all about business

Summary6 min read

James Reed: All About Business – Episode 37 Summary

Title: From Hitting Rock Bottom to Building a Global Brand from Scratch | Matthew Jones, The King of Doughnuts
Host: James Reed
Guest: Matthew Jones, Founder and CEO of Bread Ahead
Release Date: July 21, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 37 of "James Reed: All About Business," host James Reed engages in an inspiring conversation with Matthew Jones, the esteemed founder and CEO of Bread Ahead, an international bakery renowned for its delectable crème brûlée donut. The episode delves into Matthew’s tumultuous journey from professional success to personal downfall and his remarkable comeback, culminating in the creation of a global bakery empire.

Early Career and Founding of Flower Power City

Timestamp: 02:34 – 17:04

Matthew Jones began his career as a Michelin-starred restaurant chef, immersing himself in London's vibrant food scene during the 1990s and early 2000s. His passion for pastry and baking led him to transition from the restaurant kitchen to the bakery business. In 1998, inspired by the burgeoning Borough Market, Matthew launched his first venture, Flower Power City, a humble bakery started with minimal investment.

Matthew Jones [17:04]: “I opened on my own, literally just on my own with some flour and, you know, nothing like 500 quid and a wing and a prayer, really.”

Flower Power City quickly gained traction, supplying local restaurants and participating in weekly farmers' markets. This initial success set the foundation for his entrepreneurial spirit and deepened his love for baking.

Founding of Bread Ahead

Timestamp: 25:43 – 31:19

After selling Flower Power City, Matthew aspired to create a more significant impact in the baking industry. In 2013, he founded Bread Ahead in Borough Market. Starting with a market stall, Matthew's commitment and expertise led to the bakery’s rapid growth. The brand emphasized artisan baking, using natural yeast and sourdough techniques.

Matthew meticulously crafted his brand identity, combining his love for quality bread with educational initiatives. Bread Ahead expanded beyond just selling bread, introducing baking classes and workshops designed for home bakers and aspiring professionals.

Matthew Jones [25:44]: “I drew the word bread and then I drew a little arrow after it and I thought, just bread ahead. That's going to be the name of the business.”

Challenges Faced: Alcoholism and Rock Bottom

Timestamp: 18:40 – 24:38

Despite the success of Bread Ahead, Matthew struggled with alcoholism, a common plight in the high-pressure culinary world. His dependency on alcohol began to affect his professional and personal life, leading to erratic behavior and poor decision-making. This culminated in a critical intervention in 2009, where a friend confronted him about his deteriorating health.

Matthew Jones [19:15]: “I didn't have an off button, but somehow I made it work. Through brute force, really.”
James Reed [21:49]: “He sacked you from your own business?”

The turning point came when Matthew was diagnosed with alcoholic pancreatitis, landing him on a path to recovery. With the support of friends in recovery, particularly Clarissa Dixon Wright, Matthew managed to overcome his addiction, marking the beginning of his resurgence.

Recovery and Restarting Business

Timestamp: 24:38 – 29:14

Post-recovery, Matthew stayed at a friend's farm, focusing on healing and rebuilding his life. This period of reflection and sobriety fueled his determination to relaunch Bread Ahead with renewed vigor and a clear vision. Leveraging his established reputation from earlier ventures, he returned to London, reestablishing his presence in Borough Market.

Matthew emphasized the importance of education in his business model, expanding Bread Ahead to include a comprehensive bakery school. This initiative not only diversified his business but also fostered a community of passionate bakers.

Matthew Jones [25:44]: “I started at the beginning. I drew this word bread and then I thought, just bread ahead.”

Growth and Franchise Expansion

Timestamp: 31:20 – 37:18

Under Matthew’s leadership, Bread Ahead experienced substantial growth. By maintaining full ownership through cash flow and reinvestment, the bakery expanded its footprint within London and internationally. Key milestones included opening multiple locations in Chelsea and Wembley, each meticulously designed to uphold the brand’s standards of quality and artisan craftsmanship.

Recognizing the potential for global expansion, Matthew adopted a franchising model, partnering with entrepreneurs worldwide. This strategy facilitated rapid scaling, with Bread Ahead now present in regions such as the Middle East and the Philippines.

Matthew Jones [37:10]: “We train them, we send a team out there. It works really well.”

Impact of COVID-19

Timestamp: 33:03 – 35:56

The COVID-19 pandemic posed unprecedented challenges for Bread Ahead, threatening to disrupt its expanding operations. However, Matthew's resilience and adaptability allowed the business to navigate the crisis effectively. By pivoting to online platforms, offering virtual baking classes, and maintaining operational continuity, Bread Ahead not only survived but thrived during the pandemic.

Social media played a pivotal role in this phase, with Matthew personally managing the bakery's Instagram presence, drastically increasing the brand’s online following and customer engagement.

Matthew Jones [34:14]: “Our Instagram went crazy. Went from like 60,000 followers to 200,000 in six weeks.”

Social Media and Marketing Strategy

Timestamp: 35:07 – 37:18

Matthew’s hands-on approach to social media marketing has been instrumental in Bread Ahead’s success. By consistently posting raw, authentic content on platforms like Instagram, he cultivated a loyal and global customer base. Daily posts and interactions made the brand highly relatable and accessible, enhancing its international reputation.

Matthew Jones [35:36]: “I make these silly little videos of myself talking about the product… I keep it raw.”

This organic growth through digital channels enabled Bread Ahead to establish a recognizable and distinctive brand, essential for its international franchising efforts.

Education and Bakery School

Timestamp: 31:20 – 54:15

A cornerstone of Bread Ahead’s philosophy is education. The bakery offers comprehensive baking courses, ranging from short workshops for home bakers to extensive training programs for aspiring professionals. The Bread Ahead Academy provides six-month programs focusing on artisan baking techniques, instilling practical skills and fostering a deep understanding of the craft.

These educational initiatives not only create skilled bakers but also reinforce the brand’s commitment to quality and innovation in baking.

Matthew Jones [52:22]: “We give them real skills. Six months. So got a really good teacher.”

Additionally, corporate team-building events and school groups contribute to the academy’s diversity, attracting participants from various backgrounds and enhancing community engagement.

Future Plans and Advice

Timestamp: 54:15 – 63:58

Looking ahead, Matthew envisions further global expansion of Bread Ahead. With existing franchises in the Middle East and upcoming locations in the Philippines, the brand aims to penetrate new markets, leveraging its educational programs and high-quality products. Matthew aspires to establish Bread Ahead as a global leader in artisan baking, maintaining the balance between growth and the personal touch that defines the brand.

When asked for advice to aspiring entrepreneurs, Matthew emphasizes resilience, continuous learning, and passion. Drawing from his own experiences, he underscores the importance of perseverance through adversity and the value of building genuine relationships within the industry.

Matthew Jones [42:37]: “If I was told to be at work at six, I would be there. At half past five, I would be.”

Matthew’s journey from rock bottom to global success serves as a testament to the power of determination, self-improvement, and unwavering dedication to one’s craft.

Closing Remarks

The episode concludes with James Reed and Matthew Jones enjoying a crème brûlée donut, symbolizing the sweet rewards of Matthew’s arduous journey. The conversation leaves listeners inspired by Matthew’s ability to overcome personal struggles and build a successful, internationally recognized business through passion and perseverance.

Matthew Jones [63:53]: “Yeah, [the donut] is a lot more than just a donut.”

For More Information:

Bread Ahead Website: www.breadahead.com
Follow Bread Ahead on Instagram: @breadahead
Inquire About Franchises or Courses:
- Franchise: Matthew@breadahead.com
- Courses and Team Building: Molly@breadahead.com

This episode offers valuable insights into the resilience required to rebuild a business and personal life, the strategic importance of education in business growth, and the effective use of social media in expanding a brand globally. Matthew Jones’ story is a compelling example of turning adversity into triumph, providing actionable advice for entrepreneurs at any stage of their journey.

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Transcript605 lines

[00:00]
James Reed
Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. How do you bounce back after hitting rock bottom? One man did that and more, both turning his life around and creating a viral enterprise attracting customers from all over the world. Joining me today on All About Business is Matthew Jones, the founder and CEO of Bread Ahead, an international bakery made famous, among other things, by its scrumptious creme brulee donut. In this episode, we discuss Matthew's recipe for success, how to bounce back when everything falls apart, and how he built an international franchise from scratch. Well, today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to welcome Matthew Jones, head baker and founder of Bread Ahead. And in front of me, for those who can't see, who aren't watching on YouTube, we have some amazing donuts that I've just picked up from Bread Ahead in Borough Market. And these are unlike, I have to say, Matthew, unlike any donuts I've actually ever seen. I mean, they're fantastic. Also unique, I think. And you have been, I believe, described as the donut king. So can you tell us a little bit about what we're looking at here and why people are queuing up outside your bakery in such huge numbers, as I just witnessed?
[01:52]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, lovely to. Well, thanks for having me. It's great. And it's always lovely to be, you know, in the room with donuts when I'm talking about the business because they really help me sort of to connect with what we do. So, I guess, really. Well, my background, I was a chef. I was a restaurant chef. I worked in the Michelin world from really when. When I left school. So I've always been in the food industry. I love cooking, I love baking and started off as a restaurant chef and. And then sort of meandered my way through the kitchens of London in the 90s and the noughties, and then ended up in pastry and then bakery. And I opened bread ahead in 2013 and the donuts have become a thing. You know, they really.
[02:34]
James Reed
Why? Yeah, did you know that when you started, I mean, did you want to make them? So what happened? How did that happen?
[02:40]
Matthew Jones
So we were merrily baking away. First day we made donuts, we made 60, put them outside at Borough Market. And they just sold. They. They just sold. You know, there was just. It was like giving sweets to children. You know, they. And then the next day we made 80. The next day we made a hundred. I can remember the first time we made over a thousand. And at the time it was. That was back in 2014, and it was like the ceiling was coming in, you know, like a thousand. And then we made 2000.
[03:08]
James Reed
And just setting them in one day from, you know, bar market.
[03:11]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, yeah.
[03:12]
James Reed
What are you up to? How many do you make a day now?
[03:15]
Matthew Jones
It's just. It's ridiculous. Yeah.
[03:19]
James Reed
Well, that's nice and exciting. I like that story.
[03:21]
Matthew Jones
So the. Our all time record is currently 4612.
[03:26]
James Reed
Right.
[03:26]
Matthew Jones
Donuts in one day.
[03:27]
James Reed
So was that a particular time of year? Is there a donut day?
[03:30]
Matthew Jones
It was actually Donut week. Yeah, it was a donut week. National Donut Week.
[03:36]
James Reed
When is this?
[03:36]
Matthew Jones
Five or six weeks ago.
[03:37]
James Reed
All right. I missed it to waste.
[03:39]
Matthew Jones
Smashed it, did you?
[03:41]
James Reed
Okay, National Donut Week, everyone. That's one to look out for. So just to share my experience with you, I went to Borough Market. We're talking to each other in the afternoon. I went there at lunchtime. It's heaving with people, is really busy at this time of year. In the summer, you walk in the Borough Market and you can see your bread ahead. Outlets, bakery, pretty much from everywhere in the market. It's very prominent. You've got a great location, I observed. But a couple of things surprised me. One is that all the sales seem to be happening in the street, not inside today at least. And people were queuing up on one side for bread and one side for donuts specifically. And the process was really efficient. But when I looked at the donuts, I've never seen a range I saw from afar that said creme brulee. I thought that was going to be a pudding, but actually it's a kind of donut.
[04:28]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, yeah. So.
[04:29]
James Reed
So you the creator of these. So just talk us through. What is there in your sort of donut portfolio that people like and which do they like the most?
[04:37]
Matthew Jones
Okay. So it started off with four flavors. We had chocolate, vanilla, caramel, and jam. So that was. That's how we started.
[04:45]
James Reed
And jams is a regular old school homemade.
[04:48]
Matthew Jones
We make fresh raspberries. Make from scratch. I mean, we make everything from scratch. So caramel made from scratch. You know, we make all the creme patissiere ourselves. So we started with four flavors when we opened in 2013, and we kind of sat on that for Years, to be honest, and probably three or four years we just sat on those four flavors and then we kind of started to experiment a little bit. We introduced pistachio, then we did lemon curd, then we did a blackcurrant cheesecake. And we've just grown it over the years. The. The most recent addition has been the creme brulee donut. And that has taken us to a completely different level altogether. It's actually half of our sales is that one product.
[05:28]
James Reed
Please say I bought two of them. I'll take one home with me.
[05:31]
Matthew Jones
And it's just almost like, you know, we thinking we've kind of reached the peak and we. We think we're going to plateau out and we don't. We just keep peaking. It just keeps peaking.
[05:41]
James Reed
That's interesting to hear. So you've sort of evolved by experimentation, it sounds. But the other. I mean, the other thing I noticed, I mean, it's a very efficient process. You've got there, very good location. It's really well branded. You can. But they're not cheap. I mean, I paid £54 for 12 donuts, but they're like a meal in themselves. So 450 for a donut, it's a different proposition altogether than what you might get at a service station or.
[06:04]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, totally. Yeah.
[06:05]
James Reed
So you must have been quite brave in going and positioning your product in the first place. Yeah, quite so far away from what people might expect, I'm thinking. I don't know.
[06:15]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, it's outside the box. It's a food experience. It's not just a donut, you know, this is something you're going to eat and you're going to remember that, you know, it's going to take you on a. On a journey and it's going to kind of push little buttons inside you that you may or may not be aware that you had. You know, it just sort of really does take you to another place. It's a journey. And we have people. I mean, just today in the Kiew at Borough Market, there will be people from all over the world. There'll be people from Mexico, from this, from the States, from Japan, from, you know, you name it. There will be literally all over the world come to see us.
[06:49]
James Reed
And that's because your reputation is now worldwide.
[06:51]
Matthew Jones
It's gone bonkers.
[06:53]
James Reed
It's a food experience. And was that very much your initial intention?
[06:57]
Matthew Jones
Absolutely, yes.
[06:58]
James Reed
You went out with that in mind?
[06:59]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. We want to create flavors that take you on a journey. You know, if you look at flavor as a bandwidth and, you know, normal food, as we say, you know, sort of a normal sandwich, it's got quite a narrow bandwidth. It's sort of, you know, quite boring, really. You know, but we take you out there, you know, it goes to the highs and the lows of sweetness and sour, and we really take you kind of outside your comfort zone a little bit and then put you back in again.
[07:22]
James Reed
Well, what does that mean in food? It's going outside your comfort zone.
[07:25]
Matthew Jones
If it's acidic, it's got to be really acidic. If it's lemon, it's got to be really lemony. If it's a caramel, that's a really dark adult caramel right on the edge of the palette.
[07:35]
James Reed
So you really taste it. Yeah, okay, so the sort of flavor, there's a real strategy here.
[07:40]
Matthew Jones
Yes. Yeah, you've gotta. Well, the thing is, with flavors, you don't just want that sort of initial hit.
[07:45]
James Reed
You.
[07:45]
Matthew Jones
You obviously, you want the initial hit, but then you want a kind of a secondary flavor that stays with you 45 minutes later, an hour later, the next day that you're still that long thinking about. Yeah, you're still thinking about it.
[07:58]
James Reed
Right. So you're getting into people's heads in. Yeah, a number of ways there. Just the mouth.
[08:04]
Matthew Jones
It's the mind journey.
[08:05]
James Reed
It's the Maya. Deep journey. You've used that word journey. And business and growing a business is. Is also a journey.
[08:12]
Matthew Jones
So, yeah, it's been extraordinary. I mean, you know, I started my life as a chef. Yeah, I was pretty chaotic as a youngster, really. I know all I really knew was how to get into work, how to get my apron on, and how to just behave myself in a kitchen, you know.
[08:26]
James Reed
Right, so let's go back to the beginning. So where did you start? Yeah, how did this journey begin?
[08:30]
Matthew Jones
So I, you know, I was very fortunate. When I left school, or even while I was still at school When I was 15, I knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a chef. I wanted to work in the restaurant. I'd read down and out in Paris, in London, and I thought, that's me. I've read that George Orwell. Yeah, great. You know, I fit in somehow. I told myself that I'm going to fit into that world. So it already kind of made my mind up. I got my first job. It was a youth training scheme in Thackeray's house in Tunbridge Wells, which at the time was a brilliant restaurant. I was really lucky that I found, you know, my first experience as a real young man. I mean a kid. I was 15.
[09:07]
James Reed
So you started working at 15?
[09:08]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[09:09]
James Reed
And the youth training scheme was a government scheme at the time to help young people get into work.
[09:13]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. £27 a week.
[09:14]
James Reed
That's what you got paid.
[09:16]
Matthew Jones
I had more money than I'd ever had in my life. Relative, I suppose. Spent every penny of it and. But it was an amazing environment to learn in. We, you know, it was the first time I'd seen fresh foie gras, good quality herbs. Turbo came in on the boat. You know, the fish came in on the bone, guinea fowl came in with the feathers on. It was a proper restaurant and the, the chef there and the team were amazing. It was, you know, this was in 1986. It was when the good food guide was around. The food scene in London in the UK was kind of really small, you.
[09:54]
James Reed
Know, nothing like today. I was around then. I remember it so it was a.
[09:58]
Matthew Jones
Cheese sandwich, wasn't it? Pub, you know, it was. It was so basic and so undeveloped and I was very fortunate to step into a career that was in an industry that was just, just about to go on an incredible journey.
[10:15]
James Reed
We're delighted that you're listening to this episode. Hit the follow button so that we can continue to bring you the best business insight and actionable advice to help your business and or career. What was it that set in a light, so to speak, or got that journey for the industry as a whole? I think what changed back then, I.
[10:32]
Matthew Jones
Think the Brits kind of woke up.
[10:35]
James Reed
Enough had been a broad thing. Why do I have. We like this.
[10:37]
Matthew Jones
We started traveling. You know, I can remember the first time going to France with my parents and having like a baguette. It's a fresh baguette and it's like we'd had nothing like that, you know, even the fruit and veg that you get in, you know, south of France was just completely different, you know, and it was just extraordinary really to. Well then really from there, working in Thackeray, I embarked on a career as a chef for 15 years. And that's what you did.
[11:05]
James Reed
It sounds to me like you worked in pretty top establishments. You said Michelin.
[11:09]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, Michelin World, you know, two star Michelin, you know, the best, the best at the time. Gidley Park Hotel with Sean Hill. Then I went to Bebendum with Simon.
[11:17]
James Reed
Hopkinson Bendam in South Kensington. I remember that.
[11:20]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, yeah, I was there for two years. Loved it. And it was great team of chefs there. I, I know them all still now, you know, we're sort of in touch and it was just a really tightly knit community in, in London of, you know, chefs. I mean at the time you had Alistair Little, you had Rolly Lee, you had Sally Clark.
[11:39]
James Reed
You know, she's still going strong.
[11:41]
Matthew Jones
Yep, I love her. That's kind of it.
[11:43]
James Reed
You know, Sally Clark's restaurant, Kensington Church Street. It's brilliant.
[11:46]
Matthew Jones
Stood the test of time.
[11:47]
James Reed
40 years she's celebrating this year. So yeah, so that goes back to the 85.
[11:52]
Matthew Jones
But I think it, what was really, you know, the real thing for me was when I worked in Babendum and with you know, Terence Conran who was, he was an extraordinary, you know, and a visionary, you know, because it was.
[12:06]
James Reed
Lots of restaurants at that time, didn't he? That was a big deal.
[12:09]
Matthew Jones
He changed the scene.
[12:10]
James Reed
Right. He really changed people wanting more variety. And partly Terence Conrad, you'd say.
[12:15]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, he was.
[12:16]
James Reed
And some pioneering chefs.
[12:17]
Matthew Jones
Yeah but so Terence was a, was a huge player. You know he sort of brought that modern bistro cooking, you know, high end bistro cooking really to London with Quaglinos Lepond later. Yeah, I worked in those places. Absolutely loved it. You know it was just non stop. It was just 24 7, you know, London at that time in the, in the 80s and the 90s was just electric.
[12:42]
James Reed
Right. So that was a really good foundational experience. And so at some stage you must have started thinking maybe I'm going to start my own place. Or did you think about starting a restaurant? I mean you, because you sort of branched out in a slightly different direction from what you'd been in.
[12:56]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, I always had two jobs even when I was working in the, in the restaurant. You know, I always had jobs on my days off doing part time work. Anything I was of a restaurant.
[13:07]
James Reed
Yeah, I see you just love what you do.
[13:08]
Matthew Jones
Working for friends, doing sort of dinner parties, anything I could. I always just, you know, wanted to make money and just wanted to work as much as possible. Whether that's a good thing or not, I don't know. But that was my job.
[13:20]
James Reed
Suggest you love your work.
[13:21]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, I do, I love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Love, love.
[13:24]
James Reed
I think that's really important. I mean I love Monday's message. It's all about that, you know, finding something you love.
[13:29]
Matthew Jones
And then I, I, I ended up really in pastry, being a pastry chef in the restaurants because really nobody else could do it. You know, it was just a sort of a corner of the, of the, of the restaurant kitchen.
[13:40]
James Reed
Nobody else could do it.
[13:41]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, nobody was really interested in really And I just like.
[13:44]
James Reed
People like eating puddings and pastry.
[13:45]
Matthew Jones
I like bread. I love pastry. I love bread. I love British desserts. You know, good bread and butter pudding, good crumble.
[13:51]
James Reed
So do I.
[13:52]
Matthew Jones
Good syllabub, you know.
[13:53]
James Reed
You like cooking them or do you just like eating them as well?
[13:55]
Matthew Jones
All of it.
[13:56]
James Reed
All of it, yeah.
[13:57]
Matthew Jones
The whole process. I love the cleanliness of working with patisserie. Then I. When I was working at Mezzo Bakery, which was a Conran venture, I ran the bakery there. They had a separate standalone bakery that was in that.
[14:11]
James Reed
Where was that?
[14:12]
Matthew Jones
Border Street, 1997, 1998. And it was standalone bakery. And while I was working there, I. We made all of the. All the bread for the restaurants and I started supplying local restaurants. I thought, oh, this would be a good venture. So I got talking to the guys at Neil's Yard Dairy Shop. We started supplying people like Zilly F at the time and Pont Street Deli. I can remember all sorts, really. And that really got me thinking. I thought, God, this is an amazing business. You know, I could just have a little bakery somewhere and then I could start supplying people and that would be my business. And that's. That's what I'm going to do.
[14:51]
James Reed
Business to business.
[14:53]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. Really pretty much. B2B. Yeah. While I was at Metso, I got. Just got into a conversation with the guys at Neil's Yard Dairy, and they told me about this thing called Borough Market that was being developed in 1998. All right.
[15:09]
James Reed
Was that when it was.
[15:10]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, that's when it was. It was a fruit and veg market in the nights. And a bunch of people had got together and did once a quarter. It was Randolph from Neil's Yard Dairy. It was Henrietta Green. They got together and they organized sort of a food fair right down at Borough.
[15:25]
James Reed
Once a quarter.
[15:26]
Matthew Jones
Once a quarter. Yeah. And they said, why don't you Columba come along, bring some bread and see how it goes. Bring a table. I was like, yeah, right. Yeah, let's see. Let's see what this looks like. So I. Julie did. And actually outside Neil's Yard dairy shop in 1998. So it's pitched up with a table that's smaller than this table here, probably six foot across. Just put a load of bread on it. How does. How does this. Okay, four pounds sourdough. Yep. Olive bread. Yep. Great. You know, sold everything. I took there. And literally, I mean, and it was. They just had the right audience. They had people who got it. You know, there was, you know, they. They wanted sourdough they wanted decent produce. And that was the. The beginning of Borough Market. And I was like, wow, that was incredible. You know.
[16:15]
James Reed
So you'd found your home in a sense. Yeah, yeah.
[16:17]
Matthew Jones
And that really was the pivotal moment. I thought, I've got. I'm gonna do this for myself. I'm going to look for a premises.
[16:23]
James Reed
Yeah.
[16:24]
Matthew Jones
And set up shop.
[16:25]
James Reed
Because I was thinking the location is pretty important for this. I mean, you've got a really sort of receptive audience there.
[16:32]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. So that was my first business venture before Ahead. This was, you know, my. When I. When I was a youngster. So I had this idea and I thought, I'm going to design.
[16:43]
James Reed
What was that called?
[16:44]
Matthew Jones
It was called Flower Power City.
[16:46]
James Reed
Right, okay.
[16:47]
Matthew Jones
And it was, you know.
[16:50]
James Reed
You like rhyming names?
[16:51]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, yeah, I did. It just sounded good. I don't know where the name came from really. It just sort of Flower Power, I guess I was a bit of a hippie and, you know, I thought, oh, let's, let's do a bakery.
[17:02]
James Reed
It was spelled F L O U R. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[17:05]
Matthew Jones
And, yeah. And it. And it ripped. I mean, we opened. I opened on my own, literally just on my own with some flour and, you know, nothing like 500 quid and a wing and a prayer, really.
[17:18]
James Reed
And getting up at sort of 3.
[17:20]
Matthew Jones
In the morning, 24, 7.
[17:22]
James Reed
So you're working really hard.
[17:23]
Matthew Jones
Oh, yeah, yeah.
[17:24]
James Reed
I don't think that should be overstated.
[17:27]
Matthew Jones
If I do a new vent, sleep on the floor, I will sleep on the floor. I will literally live in that place until the business works. It is.
[17:34]
James Reed
You've done that more than once?
[17:35]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, right, yeah, I've done that twice.
[17:39]
James Reed
When you say, how many days in.
[17:40]
Matthew Jones
A row sleeping on the floor? I've been through this journey twice.
[17:44]
James Reed
So Flower Power was the first flower and then Bread Ahead was the second.
[17:47]
Matthew Jones
One, was the second.
[17:48]
James Reed
And on both occasions you slept on.
[17:50]
Matthew Jones
The floor on both occasions. I started from a very, very rock bottom, we'll come to that. All right, so Flower Power was a success. It was really good. I like a month down the line, I employed a couple of bakers. I grew, started supplying restaurants around and then Borough Market was once, once a quarter. This Stage back in 1999, this would have been so once a quarter only, you know, it was brilliant. We'd turn up there, take a load of money. It was really, really good. And then some other markets started opening. London, like farmers markets. So I started doing those. I employed more staff, I saved up some money. Then I moved premises to A big industrial warehouse unit down in near Millwall.
[18:41]
James Reed
Right.
[18:42]
Matthew Jones
And things went really well. All good. Grew. The business kept growing. I was in my mid-30s and. Yeah. You know, which seems. It's funny really, to talk about it, because my life now is so different, actually.
[18:59]
James Reed
Yeah.
[19:00]
Matthew Jones
And I. But I was a pretty chaotic character.
[19:02]
James Reed
So what happened then? What? What?
[19:04]
Matthew Jones
You know, well, through that journey, I mean, the bit that I haven't gone through is, you know, as much as I have my lovely cup of tea in front of me now, my companion at the time was not tea, it was booze, you know.
[19:15]
James Reed
Right.
[19:15]
Matthew Jones
And I was a. A very frequent drinker.
[19:19]
James Reed
Right.
[19:19]
Matthew Jones
You know, with no off button.
[19:22]
James Reed
So you were sort of drinking all the time. Yeah, I suppose that can happen when you work in restaurants and that world. I guess I can have it anyway, can't it? Yeah, yeah. So you discovered at that point that you didn't have an off button.
[19:37]
Matthew Jones
I did not have an off button, but somehow I made it work. You know, I just. Through brute force, really. Right. I was just so driven and so sort of single minded about making it work, that I would make it work. But, God, I made my life hard, you know, I really made my own life hard.
[19:57]
James Reed
So about the drinking. So some people think, you know, the addictions, you move from one. But. So work can be an addiction as well?
[20:06]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, yeah, I think it can, yeah. Exercise can. Yeah, many things can. Yeah. But.
[20:10]
James Reed
But at that point you have this issue.
[20:12]
Matthew Jones
But they're probably not quite so destructive.
[20:14]
James Reed
No.
[20:15]
Matthew Jones
You know, so I kind of managed, you know, I kind of managed. My life was successful. You know, I had probably 80 staff, you know, turning over a lot of money, big business, great. And then the wheel started to come off.
[20:33]
James Reed
Right.
[20:33]
Matthew Jones
You know, I was kind of. I. I was in my late 30s, so I thought, great, this is just amazing. I've got my business, I've got everything. Another guy approached by an investor.
[20:45]
James Reed
Right.
[20:46]
Matthew Jones
I thought, well, this could be really great. You know, he was very flattering. And I sort of. And I got sucked in. And I thought, yeah, yeah, yeah, this, this is the right thing to do. I'm gonna take an investor. Yeah, yeah. Individual, yeah, lj, let's call him LJ and who's a serial entrepreneur and a very extraordinarily successful man. And, you know, I have nothing but respectful, to be honest. And. And he duly invested in the business. And the beginning was great. It was fine. And then he sort of got wind that I was not. There was something wrong with Matthew. You know, it's like this guy's turning up to meetings late, drunk, whatever, you.
[21:26]
James Reed
Know, it's like, oh, I see. So he.
[21:28]
Matthew Jones
He was aware he was having it. He was having absolutely none of it. So he sacked me from my own business.
[21:35]
James Reed
Okay. I think this is. I think I know this lj. I might even call him a friend.
[21:41]
Matthew Jones
But, yeah.
[21:41]
James Reed
So he sacked you from your own business?
[21:43]
Matthew Jones
And he sacked me from my own business and my life fell apart and it was.
[21:48]
James Reed
Had a majority share then at this point.
[21:50]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[21:51]
James Reed
I was sold out some shares to him.
[21:53]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. And I was just so compromised and I. I was just in no fit state to run a business. I was just. I was ruined. Yeah, I was broken. I was absolutely broken. I, I honestly, it was just like being in this corner and suddenly I realized that I'd kind of lost, you know what I mean? And being, you know, for a very determined person who's focused on business, had a great career, and suddenly at the age of like, 39, right, being in this position, when you finally realize that you have just lost everything. And that was like, you know, I mean, I had houses, as they could say, rock bottom. Yeah, yeah. Brutal. It was absolutely brutal. I mean, I had nothing but debts and I, you know, it was just horrendous. And so I packed my bags. Well, a bag, because that's all I had. And I went to see a mate of mine who lived up, who's got a farm in Northfield Farm, it's in Oakum up in Leicester.
[23:00]
James Reed
Right.
[23:01]
Matthew Jones
And Yan's really good mate. And he, he just took a look at me and he said, you're like yellow. You're. You're just ill. You're just. You can't go on. You. You need to stop. You're gonna die.
[23:13]
James Reed
Yeah.
[23:13]
Matthew Jones
And. And funny enough, at that time, his friend Yellow goes with sort of liver failure, doesn't it? Yeah. I'd had. I've been hospitalized. I had alcoholic pancreatitis. I. I mean, I was on Death's door, right.
[23:28]
James Reed
39.
[23:29]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. I was like, really, like fat around my neck. I've got this old photo somewhere and it's just like, you know, right. And everything fell apart. Marriage, family, everything. Everything, everything. And so I went to stay with Jan for a weekend and. But Jan's farm was staying Clarissa Dixon Wright, who's. Who's a recovering alcoholic. And she sort of had a chat with me and just said, why don't you come along to one of these, These meetings I go to? He might find that quite useful. And I did and really, that's really when my life started. And it was extraordinary. So I ended up staying in Jan's spare bedroom for nine months. I didn't go back to London and made myself busy on the farm.
[24:16]
James Reed
So you helped on the farm?
[24:17]
Matthew Jones
Yep. And then we had a little tea house there, so we started doing some baking. And you started drinking. Yeah, yeah, I just stopped. You just managed to switch literally one day to the next. The moment I stepped foot on that farm, that was it.
[24:30]
James Reed
Right.
[24:30]
Matthew Jones
And I realized, you know, so it was.
[24:34]
James Reed
That's been the case since.
[24:35]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I haven't touched the drop in 15 years. I've been so before.
[24:39]
James Reed
Which is.
[24:39]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, it's quite extraordinary. Say it really.
[24:41]
James Reed
And that's Clarissa Dixon, right?
[24:43]
Matthew Jones
Oh, she's dying, she said. She did. She died a few years ago.
[24:46]
James Reed
Yeah.
[24:48]
Matthew Jones
But she really did help me on my way. Good old Clarissa. But, yeah, so then it was during that time, I was sitting up at Yan's table in his. In his kitchen, and the first thing I thought, you know, I got my head clear and I thought, right, I better sort this out because I think I've got another chart. I've got it in me, you know, I can do this again. Yes, I can. I'm gonna do this again.
[25:09]
James Reed
Yeah.
[25:10]
Matthew Jones
I'm not going back.
[25:11]
James Reed
Another opportunity.
[25:12]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. I'm not going to go and be a pastry chef again in the kitchen in a Michelin world. I'm not going to do that. So somehow I don't know how I'm going to do this. I'm going to open a new business. Where'd you start? Where'd you start with that?
[25:28]
James Reed
That'd be my next question. Matthews, where'd you start?
[25:31]
Matthew Jones
So I started at the begin.
[25:33]
James Reed
You got any money as opposed?
[25:35]
Matthew Jones
No. No revenue. So.
[25:38]
James Reed
So where do you start? You've decided you want to do this? Starting from a tough place.
[25:44]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. Piece.
[25:44]
James Reed
Start with a piece of paper.
[25:46]
Matthew Jones
So then I drew this word bread. I've still got the book at home. I've got a little notebook. I love sketching and drawing and I do that a lot still. And I wrote down the word bread and then I drew a little arrow after it and I thought, just bread ahead. That's. That's the name. That's going to be the name of the business.
[26:05]
James Reed
Just so you drew a piece of bread with an arrow and that became Bread Ahead.
[26:08]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, it came out nowhere.
[26:11]
James Reed
I love that. I've heard that before. We've talked to other people. Where's your brand come from?
[26:14]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[26:14]
James Reed
So they have this sort of moment.
[26:16]
Matthew Jones
Where they just decide and.
[26:17]
James Reed
Yeah, so that was that. So you had your brand, so you knew you were going to do something, going to be forward looking.
[26:25]
Matthew Jones
And then I thought, you know, one thing I really want to focus on is education because I just like to teach people stuff, you know, I just really like to have people in the room showing people how to make bread. And I think I find it quite healing, really, to have people just around the table and talk to them about making bread. So start, I think, right, I'm going to. I'm going to do this. So this was like six months into being at Yan's place and friend of mine, Olivier, who used to work for me, he wanted to also set up his own bakery. So I. He was a great guy. Olivier's smart, he's, you know, young French guy and he. Yeah, he found a premises in Bermondsey that was a disused bakery. So I thought, great, Olivia, well do. I'll give you a hand to open up and I'll bake some bread in your place. Sleep on the floor. So I'll come back to London, basically, and then I'll take my bread to borrow Market and I'll sell it on a market store under Bread Ahead. This is Bread Ahead now, new name. It was a two year. Two. Two years between Flower Power and, you know, Borough Market knew me, I knew them well. Had me back. Yeah, happy to have you back. He's doing a new venture. Great. Good. CEO. Yeah. You look a bit better, Matthew. Actually, you can, you know, you're not spending the entire time in the pub.
[27:49]
James Reed
Disappointed. But everyone else was pleased.
[27:52]
Matthew Jones
It was actually really nerve wracking. I remember the first time. It's really strange thing, if there's any listeners out there, you know, because there probably will be. It's really weird, right, when you're in early recovery, like being back in the same environment because you feel really vulnerable, I bet. And. And funny, you know, and then.
[28:11]
James Reed
Then because you used to go into that pub or.
[28:13]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[28:13]
James Reed
And you'd have people you knew yourself.
[28:15]
Matthew Jones
To be near that and, you know, and I just found the courage to do it really. And before I knew it, I got myself a little flat back in London and Olivier was, you know, I was. I was baking my stuff there, taking Olivia.
[28:29]
James Reed
Your business partner?
[28:30]
Matthew Jones
No, no, no, he's got his own.
[28:31]
James Reed
Business, so he has his business. You were using his bakery to make your bread?
[28:34]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, it was kind of a temporary solution until I.
[28:37]
James Reed
Until you got your own one.
[28:38]
Matthew Jones
Back on my feet.
[28:39]
James Reed
So he Was a supplier, in a sense.
[28:41]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I still get on with him now. And, you know, you know, Olivier, we used to go drinking together. I mean, God, you know, it was. And, you know, we've. We've both grow, you know.
[28:53]
James Reed
Right.
[28:53]
Matthew Jones
Big time.
[28:54]
James Reed
You have coffee together now?
[28:55]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, yeah. Cup of tea, you know. So then I eventually found the space in Borough Market, where we are now actually. It came available and I converted.
[29:04]
James Reed
It's a great space.
[29:05]
Matthew Jones
Is that.
[29:06]
James Reed
So you must have been pretty pleased when you saw that. What was it?
[29:09]
Matthew Jones
Before it was just storage of fruit and veg, actually. Yeah. Potatoes and carrots and onions.
[29:14]
James Reed
Because it's very immediately vis visible.
[29:16]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, well, when we moved there, it really wasn't. I mean, the market, like. Like, you know, 13 years ago now. 12. Yeah, 12. 13 years ago. The market was actually much quieter. So especially during the week, the sort of Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday were pretty, you know, tumbleweed down there. The Saturdays are always big.
[29:34]
James Reed
Yeah. It's not like that now, is it?
[29:37]
Matthew Jones
Oh, God, it's just so busy.
[29:39]
James Reed
It's a huge destination now.
[29:41]
Matthew Jones
Massive. Yeah. International, you know.
[29:43]
James Reed
Yeah. So you really landed in the right place.
[29:45]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. And it's been the heart of the business, really, ever since we opened. So we opened originally we were selling bread on the market stall. And then about six months after we opened in Borough, we started doing the bakery courses.
[30:00]
James Reed
School, because. Yeah. You have a bakery and a school.
[30:02]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, yeah. And it's a big thing. I mean, this school has grown.
[30:04]
James Reed
You said you like to teach.
[30:06]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. So we ran short courses, three hours, like workshops, really. Designed for the home baker that wanted to improve their skills.
[30:13]
James Reed
Right.
[30:14]
Matthew Jones
Before you know it, we started doing little school groups, which was really nice to have you, like, you know, sort of 14, 15 year olds in. And I. I found myself talking to him about my career path, you know, about, you know, I was so fortunate, really. When I was at school, I just knew what I wanted to do.
[30:29]
James Reed
Yeah.
[30:30]
Matthew Jones
And that was really rewarding. That really sort of helped me, you know, to. On my journey with baking and bread. And then we just grew and burrow. Just got busier and busier. We employed more people. I mean, I used to be in the bakery 24, 7. I was the first, probably five years there a lot. When I had a flat, I literally. Next to the bakery.
[30:56]
James Reed
Right.
[30:57]
Matthew Jones
And my life used to consist of a little triangle went between my flat, the bakery and Monmouth Coffee. That was it. That's what I did for, like a couple of years.
[31:07]
James Reed
Yeah. So this is a really big commitment. A huge effort.
[31:12]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. 100 from cash flow. No loans, no partners, no debt, no.
[31:19]
James Reed
Loans, no partners, no nothing.
[31:21]
Matthew Jones
No. And it's still the same today.
[31:22]
James Reed
So you're. You wholly own it.
[31:24]
Matthew Jones
Yep.
[31:26]
James Reed
With your wife. Fantastic.
[31:28]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[31:29]
James Reed
So that's from Cash Flow, Cash Inflow, Investment, Revenue Investment. We call it Marine. That's what. That's how we've grown our business.
[31:35]
Matthew Jones
Well, it's a real business, you know, and I think it's. That. That's real. And we had a couple of sort of real milestone events, I suppose, on the way. You know, we. We were always recognized for doing so profoundly good food, because we do, you know, I mean, that's my background. I mean, I was a. Came from the Michelin world. So it was all about flavor and do it properly or don't bother sort of thing, really. You know, simple range. You know, we don't. We don't do too many things. Probably 12 real key products. We do VMware, sourdough bread and donuts and the teaching. We opened a couple of locations since 2017, 2018. We opened on Pavilion Road in Chelsea. That was. It's been very, very good for us. We opened in Wembley. We opened a really big bakery up there.
[32:22]
James Reed
How's that?
[32:22]
Matthew Jones
It's amazing.
[32:23]
James Reed
Wembley is like a new city.
[32:25]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[32:25]
James Reed
All around the stadium, all those new flats.
[32:28]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[32:28]
James Reed
It's a huge area, isn't it?
[32:29]
Matthew Jones
And I think we've been very fortunate.
[32:31]
James Reed
So how many outlets have you got now?
[32:33]
Matthew Jones
Five now in. In London, South Kensington, one in Bromley. But we've been in a very fortunate position that generally we've been helped by landlords. So the landlords have given us, you know, incentivized us to move there. Given us capital contribution because it brings people into their. Yeah.
[32:51]
James Reed
Neighborhood. I suppose.
[32:52]
Matthew Jones
We're.
[32:52]
James Reed
We're a smell of baking. It's good as well.
[32:55]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. And we still. We bake on site. It's proper baking. We don't have a freezer. We don't freeze things at all. And we've kept it very natural and real.
[33:04]
James Reed
But I understand you're also setting up outside of the uk.
[33:07]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[33:08]
James Reed
So I've heard this, but, yeah. What are you doing?
[33:11]
Matthew Jones
What a journey. So, you know, it's. It's sort of give me goosebumps, really, to talk about it, but, you know, it was always. It always became apparent when we were down at Borough Market that we had a following, you know, from. From far and wide. You know, people would.
[33:26]
James Reed
People from all over the world coming.
[33:27]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. From, you know, from America would sort of rock up and say, hey, you know, I'm not going to try and do an accent because I'm terrible. But, you know, and they'd say, hey, you guys, you're really, you know, we've seen you on Instagram or Tick Tock or whatever. And. And they would just love our stuff, you know. So during. Essentially during COVID now. Covid. I mean, that's a whole chapter of a book in itself. Covid was a. Was just this all over the place thing for us. We. We just opened Wembley, our biggest site. We'd gone massively over budget. We had to find literally overnight a ton of money that we didn't have. We had to refund six months bookings for the school in advance because you.
[34:15]
James Reed
Couldn'T deliver the courses. So people are paid and you had to send the money back.
[34:18]
Matthew Jones
Send it back.
[34:19]
James Reed
You couldn't do it virtually for that?
[34:20]
Matthew Jones
No, we did some. A lot. There was a lot of love around, so, you know, a lot of forgiveness and, you know, But I think just, you know, the first kind of couple of months of COVID nobody knew what the hell was going on. We didn't think it was going to last for two years.
[34:33]
James Reed
No, no, I remember. Yeah, I was in exactly the same situation.
[34:37]
Matthew Jones
We were thinking, oh, this is.
[34:38]
James Reed
What are we going to do next?
[34:39]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, we'll be. Yeah, by the summer this will be out of the way. No chance. But it ended up being really good. We ended up being busier than ever because we were kind of the only thing open we didn't close for one day.
[34:52]
James Reed
You kept your bakeries?
[34:53]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, I kept everything open. Yeah. Because I. Because I love being open.
[34:57]
James Reed
So what you just said we're. Because I suppose you're a food supplier. There was no rules saying you had to close.
[35:02]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, bread was huge. We were posting flour out. We were doing online classes. Our Instagram went crazy. Went from like 60, 000 followers to 200, 000 in six weeks. We did. We developed the online platform for teaching baking, which is something we'd always wanted to do, but just said we're too busy. So we had to. So we did.
[35:23]
James Reed
So you've mentioned Instagram twice or. Tell me social media a big deal for you.
[35:27]
Matthew Jones
Massive.
[35:28]
James Reed
So how does that work? And I think you do it yourself.
[35:31]
Matthew Jones
All of it. Myself, you do all of it? Yeah.
[35:33]
James Reed
So what do you do.
[35:36]
Matthew Jones
Instagram? I make these silly little videos of myself talking about the product. Typically I'll be down at Borough Market saying, hey, everybody. I'm just down on the bakery store down at the bakery store here. And I'm eating a donut and it's really delicious. Why don't you come down and have one? I keep it.
[35:52]
James Reed
How often do you do that?
[35:53]
Matthew Jones
Every day. Yeah. And I. I don't edit anything. I keep.
[35:57]
James Reed
Have a daily post.
[35:58]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes six times a day, you know.
[36:00]
James Reed
Really?
[36:00]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. I can really push it. And, you know, I like content that's really raw because I like, you know, live music or opera. And, you know, because it's real. Even if it's.
[36:12]
James Reed
Even if I make you, like, going to Joy. You don't sing on your Instagram?
[36:16]
Matthew Jones
No.
[36:17]
James Reed
I just wanted to understand.
[36:18]
Matthew Jones
Never.
[36:18]
James Reed
So the opera is what you enjoy going?
[36:20]
Matthew Jones
I do, yeah.
[36:21]
James Reed
Okay. You don't deliver.
[36:23]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[36:23]
James Reed
Bakers. The opera baker. Oh, right. So. So that's become. That's become a big part of your marketing.
[36:31]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, Huge. Huge.
[36:32]
James Reed
But you were saying. So you were aware that people were coming from all over the world to enjoy your donuts and.
[36:38]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[36:39]
James Reed
And bread and. And then you thought, what, in terms of expansion.
[36:43]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[36:43]
James Reed
So you're on a journey that you might.
[36:46]
Matthew Jones
We got approached by a family from the Middle East. So since then we have opened in Dubai.
[36:53]
James Reed
They're like a partner of yours.
[36:55]
Matthew Jones
Franchise partner. Yeah.
[36:56]
James Reed
Okay. We have gone into franchising.
[36:59]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. Internationally. It's really the only way.
[37:01]
James Reed
So they use all your branding.
[37:03]
Matthew Jones
We train them, we send our guys. Send a team out there.
[37:06]
James Reed
When you get a cut of what they sell.
[37:08]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, yeah, that's. Yeah, yeah.
[37:10]
James Reed
Franchising.
[37:11]
Matthew Jones
It works really well. Does it?
[37:13]
James Reed
In yours, in your space, you're going.
[37:14]
Matthew Jones
To find the right partner. And we. We were lucky we found the right. The right people to do this, you.
[37:19]
James Reed
Know, because I remember years ago, one of the. I don't know whether I should dare mention them in this. In this podcast, but Krispy Kreme, you know, they were doing franchising in the uk.
[37:27]
Matthew Jones
Well, I mean, they've. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they're a huge company.
[37:32]
James Reed
But they do franchise.
[37:34]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, yeah. It's the only way to scale it. Real sort of speed of growth. Yeah, I mean, it's. Yeah, it's. It's. I'm not a Krispy Kreme eater myself.
[37:42]
James Reed
I didn't think you would be looking at your donut. Yeah.
[37:44]
Matthew Jones
Kind of. It's pure sugar, isn't it? But it's not real flavor.
[37:47]
James Reed
No, no, no. That's why I didn't really want to mention them. But I only mentioned them in the context of franchising because they obviously did that quite successfully.
[37:56]
Matthew Jones
A very. I mean, they kind of. Yeah.
[37:58]
James Reed
So you see that as a strategy for you. So are you looking for other potential franchise? Would the benefit of this discussion be if you're interested in becoming a Bread Ahead franchise, send email, contact. So if you want to be a Bread Ahead franchise, who do you contact?
[38:12]
Matthew Jones
You just send Matthew, bread ahead.com and email and say, hey, but it's, you know, why not?
[38:18]
James Reed
Actually, I can see that that could be a good living, you know, you have a good business being a Bread Ahead franchise.
[38:23]
Matthew Jones
Yes. Franchise. Yes, you do. Yeah. There's. There's good margin in the product and it's, you know, it's funny to say that really, but it's, you know, we're looking for the sort of people who are passionate about our business. That's what's really important. You don't want somebody who's just thinking about how much profit can I make from this is.
[38:39]
James Reed
No. People who love baking and the things.
[38:41]
Matthew Jones
That you like mainly to share the values. Yeah, yeah.
[38:45]
James Reed
Do you have some defined values? I mean.
[38:48]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, I mean, people know what they.
[38:49]
James Reed
Are in the business.
[38:50]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, but what are they? I think it's just a love of natural food.
[38:54]
James Reed
Is that what you say?
[38:55]
Matthew Jones
You know? Yeah. A good sourdough baking. And I think, you know, well, since then, we've. We've actually got a partner in the. In Philippines, so we're opening in Manila this year in September.
[39:05]
James Reed
That's another franchise.
[39:06]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. Which is a big thing for us, actually. Yeah.
[39:08]
James Reed
Wow. I mean, you could end up with.
[39:11]
Matthew Jones
A lot of these thousands.
[39:13]
James Reed
Thousand. Is that the ambition?
[39:15]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[39:16]
James Reed
Right.
[39:17]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, I would like that. Yeah. Yeah.
[39:19]
James Reed
All around the world.
[39:21]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. And it's really exciting because, I mean, the thing I love is. I love traveling and I, you know, I've been. I've traveled extensively. It's really nice to be, you know, to go to a place to a city and to not be a tourist, to actually have a business there.
[39:36]
James Reed
Yes.
[39:37]
Matthew Jones
It's so relatable. And you just have a really different relationship with the city and the people who live there. But, you know, such a transferable skill. I mean, I would love to be, you know, especially the bakery school part of it, because people already come to us from all over the world, so it's very easy for us to set up a bakery school in.
[39:56]
James Reed
You kind of know, you've got customers in these, in these geographies because they're coming to you already.
[40:01]
Matthew Jones
But it's so, you know, from Mexico City to Tokyo to, you know, it's a baking Is a global phenomenon.
[40:09]
James Reed
Do you do franchises in the UK as well, or are you sticking.
[40:11]
Matthew Jones
No, I don't think, you know, the uk, we just do ourselves.
[40:15]
James Reed
Yourselves. So the strategy would do it yourselves in the UK and franchises outside. Yeah, right, yeah.
[40:21]
Matthew Jones
There's, you know.
[40:21]
James Reed
So you've got the Middle East. Where in the Middle east are you going?
[40:25]
Matthew Jones
So we open in Saudi, Dubai. So they're already open? Yeah, they're open. We have 11 bakeries there.
[40:31]
James Reed
11 in Saudi?
[40:33]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, yeah, Saudi and Dubai, UAE. Next would be Egypt, right, yeah. Huge foodie communities in these. In these countries.
[40:41]
James Reed
Yeah, I bet.
[40:43]
Matthew Jones
And it's. Yeah, there's. There's so much.
[40:46]
James Reed
So have you been out to Saudi?
[40:48]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, I go all the time. Yeah, I was there back in March. Yeah.
[40:51]
James Reed
Right. Is the audience the same? Do they like to eat the same.
[40:55]
Matthew Jones
Things people see in borough markets?
[40:58]
James Reed
Same people. And is it the same products? I suppose I'm asking. So that's brilliant.
[41:03]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, it's extraordinary.
[41:04]
James Reed
Yeah.
[41:04]
Matthew Jones
And then likewise, when I'm in. If I'm in the. In the bakery in Chelsea, I'll see guys. Oh, yeah, I saw you in Jeddah, you know, and the world has become such a, you know, it's so much smaller now, isn't it, really?
[41:16]
James Reed
Well, that's very interesting though, because you're establishing a brand online, in a sense, through your social media, Tick tock, Instagram, and then you're repeating it in different parts of the world. Everyone knows what it is and what they can get and it's very immediately recognizable and distinctive, isn't it?
[41:32]
Matthew Jones
But I think is ready for new brands. I mean, if you look at, you know, in my childhood, there was, you know, there was McDonald's and there was KFC and there was, you know, and. Yeah, I mean, it's not great, is it? You know, there's, there's, you know, I mean, I know they serve a purpose.
[41:47]
James Reed
And I've been around a long time.
[41:49]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, yeah.
[41:49]
James Reed
But I think it's nice to go somewhere else.
[41:51]
Matthew Jones
I think there's time. I think it's just that I think the market. Markets ripe for new brands. For, you know, if you think of companies like Arabica Coffee, you know, who. From Japan, I mean, amazing brand, really focused on what they do, really successful.
[42:06]
James Reed
So. So the world is ready for new brands. You're creating one, you've created one, you're creating one and it's growing fantastically. What, what sort of advice would you give to someone who's thinking, who's got their piece of paper, like, you Had a few years back, one, just starting to write something on it. How to think about a new brand or a new position in a market. You know, if you wanted to start out as a young entrepreneur or indeed a middle aged entrepreneur wants to have another go.
[42:32]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, I think.
[42:32]
James Reed
What would you suggest as a way? Just a thought process really. Any advice for people?
[42:38]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, it's extra, it's a, it's a funny thing because, you know, when I was in the early stages of setting this up, did I think that we'd become a really big international business? No, I didn't. But I think most importantly, I learned from very good people. You know, when I was, When I was 15, 16 years old, I was in those kitchens, I was learning and I gave 100 of myself to what I do. You know, if I was told to be at work at six, I would be there. At half past five, I would be, I'll be in there on my days off, I commit 100 to what I do.
[43:10]
James Reed
It sounds like more than 100.
[43:11]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, it's. And that's not an easy thing to be around for, you know.
[43:16]
James Reed
What do you mean? As a colleague of yours, I think.
[43:19]
Matthew Jones
For anybody, you know, because it's, you know, I'm the guy, I work seven days a week. I, I have no issue with that. Would I want my guys to do that? No, I don't. So we sort of live in this quite kind of, sort of quite hypocritical world really. I think people who, who are pioneering in businesses because what they say and what they do or their expectations of others can be at times quite unreasonable. And I've got.
[43:44]
James Reed
What do you mean?
[43:46]
Matthew Jones
Because I wouldn't want anybody to work seven days a week for me. I'd actually be annoyed. I'd be, yeah, I'd be angry with myself. But somehow I'm prepared to abuse myself almost to do that. I'm, I will feel like abuse to you. No, it feels the way you do.
[43:59]
James Reed
It because you like it, you're enjoying it. Are you or not?
[44:02]
Matthew Jones
I love it.
[44:03]
James Reed
That's what I can say. That's what I'm sensing, love. So why would you stop doing something you love?
[44:07]
Matthew Jones
Because it's all seventh day or precisely. I mean, but it's, you know, I wouldn't want other people to do that because I would, I would feel that it's wrong. But you know, every single day I get up, I'm looking forward to going into work. I look forward to it. I, I so, you know, and I think partly is that Because I. Not a day goes past when I don't remember what I had, what I lost. And that was brutal. I mean, in terms of your previous. Yeah.
[44:34]
James Reed
Flower power.
[44:35]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. Because it's. It's not only losing in the business, is it? You lose your confidence, you lose your, you know, you lose your family on the way. You lose. You know, you lose things that you will miss. Big things.
[44:48]
James Reed
Yeah.
[44:48]
Matthew Jones
And some of those things you can't get back. Some you can.
[44:51]
James Reed
Yeah.
[44:52]
Matthew Jones
And there are. You know, that's hard. So when you are presented again with an opportunity, or I was. I took 100, you know, of the opportunity, and I don't want to miss out on that because I. I know the value of it.
[45:07]
James Reed
Well, that's a powerful message for everyone, you know, myself and everyone listening, because.
[45:11]
Matthew Jones
You know, often I share that, actually. I mean, probably been in that. In such an articulate way, but maybe this is just the right environment for that, so.
[45:18]
James Reed
Well, I'm really pleased you did, because, I mean, that's true of us all in life, in a sense, and. But what you've had is. It's shown to you very starkly through what happened.
[45:29]
Matthew Jones
Oh, yeah.
[45:30]
James Reed
So that's what I'm taking from your.
[45:32]
Matthew Jones
Sort of.
[45:32]
James Reed
From your remarks.
[45:33]
Matthew Jones
Very raw. Much easier, I think, you know, when you've sort of crossed certain milestones in a business. You know, it's. It's very difficult to sort of talk with confidence about things when you're three weeks sober, you know, and it's all really fresh because nobody really takes you seriously. But now people do, you know, and they take me seriously, which is really nice, and I've earned that, you know. So I suppose, going back to your, you know, you said, what would you advise to a young entrepreneur? You've got to stick it out. That you don't get success on day one, but you've got to be resilient. And that doesn't matter if it's sport or if it's playing a musical instrument or if it's, you know, learning a craft. You've got to be prepared to do the 10,000 hours because it's what it takes and more.
[46:21]
James Reed
My last guest on this podcast told me it took him five years to get his first sale.
[46:25]
Matthew Jones
Wow.
[46:26]
James Reed
And he's got a fabulous business.
[46:28]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[46:28]
James Reed
And he's growing. Growing it around the world. But I think that's. I think that's almost a record five years. But, yeah, he really demonstrated what you just said. So, I mean, but this is on. I mean, I. In a way, I'M feeling you're here. And he was here because you have this quality in unusual quantities, perhaps, you know, being persistent, not quitting and sleeping on the floor. Where does that come from? Or when? Is it innate or a decision or what is it? I mean, where does that come from?
[46:58]
Matthew Jones
You know, I think when. When I grew up. I mean, we. You know, I like the world I grew up in. I was really, you know, born in 1969. Great music scene, you know, the time. The Sex Pistols and the Clash and, you know, it just all seems so good. Oh, you like them?
[47:14]
James Reed
I like the Clash. I remember going to see them live.
[47:16]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, they were very wonderful, you know, they were brilliant and so raw and so honest and just so unapologetic, you know.
[47:25]
James Reed
So that gave you energy, did it?
[47:27]
Matthew Jones
It did, yeah. Yeah, it did. And then just things, I suppose my memories was things like my holidays with Pet, with. My parents were camping. You know, we slept on the floor, we made fires. We. We had our food from tin plate, you know, from tin cups. We. It was very, very basic. And I love that, you know, I love it. I love.
[47:47]
James Reed
Do you still go camping?
[47:49]
Matthew Jones
No. Why not?
[47:51]
James Reed
She liked it or your wife doesn't like it?
[47:55]
Matthew Jones
My wife would not put her foot into a Ted.
[47:58]
James Reed
Wouldn't you? I take my family camping a few times, but I haven't done it recently. You're making me think I'd like to do it again.
[48:04]
Matthew Jones
I think, you know, just buying all the kids.
[48:06]
James Reed
More expensive than staying in a hotel, though.
[48:08]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. Yeah. Camping's really changed. I mean, back in the day, it was. I think it was, you know, important to be actually really uncomfortable and wet.
[48:16]
James Reed
Yeah. But you did all that and you enjoyed it.
[48:20]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[48:20]
James Reed
So are you saying. What are you saying that gave you a certain sort of.
[48:23]
Matthew Jones
Of resilience, I think, being prepared to live with very little, you know? Yeah, yeah.
[48:30]
James Reed
You didn't need much and you knew you could enjoy yourself and get on with it.
[48:33]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. And I think that's one of the lessons I learned about having to restart my. Not only. You see, I didn't only restart business, I restarted my life. That was a thing, you know, and to do that, you've. You've got to be you. You know what it tastes like to have, you know, less than very little, you know, but you did have a good friend.
[48:52]
James Reed
That jab. Yeah.
[48:55]
Matthew Jones
A gem.
[48:56]
James Reed
Yeah. And so that's. So it's important if people are feeling in that they're in a sort of crisis, to think about who they can reach out to. I Suppose. Because there will be people, I imagine, who come.
[49:05]
Matthew Jones
You know, there's not very many.
[49:07]
James Reed
No, no, no. But they will be. They're out there. They're rare, you're saying.
[49:11]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, yeah. Well, you really learn, you know, I remember somebody said to me when. When everything went wrong back in. It was 2009 was the year when the. When my world caved in. And somebody said to me, you'll find out who stands up and who sits down. You know, that's. Not very many people stand up.
[49:32]
James Reed
Right.
[49:33]
Matthew Jones
Sadly, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[49:37]
James Reed
But one did at least.
[49:38]
Matthew Jones
But I really did take the piss, you know, I mean, I was.
[49:40]
James Reed
Yeah, I was. I was totally on themselves in that situation.
[49:43]
Matthew Jones
I was unmanageable, you know. Totally. I mean, chaotic, you know.
[49:47]
James Reed
Yeah.
[49:48]
Matthew Jones
And it was funny thing because, you know, back. Going back to bar, going back to early days of. Of bread ahead, you know, occasionally I'd sort of see an old customer from Flower and they'd sort of look at me in this way that they were expecting me to be. And. And I. And I. And that stopped happening. That doesn't happen anymore. You know, that hasn't happened. You know. Come on. I've been.
[50:07]
James Reed
I know, the new year.
[50:08]
Matthew Jones
No, I've been cleaning sober for many years now. And, you know, I. So I, you know, I've become, I think, really quite a different person through that journey.
[50:17]
James Reed
So do you mentor people in and do support people in their journey?
[50:21]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, I do, yeah.
[50:22]
James Reed
Yeah, yeah.
[50:24]
Matthew Jones
I go to meetings. I. I have a lot of friends in recovery. A lot, actually. Pretty much most of my friends are actually in recovery. And it's quite a common thing in the chef world, you know?
[50:32]
James Reed
Yeah, I imagine so, yeah. One or the other.
[50:37]
Matthew Jones
Well, either they're dead or they're in recovery.
[50:38]
James Reed
Recovery, Is that right? Yeah, because it's an extreme lifestyle.
[50:42]
Matthew Jones
Very. And I think it, you know, I think it attracted a, you know, especially that sort of world. At the Michelin world, it was very. It was almost glamorous to be sort of, you know, overtired and overworked and, you know, it's all a bit silly, really.
[50:55]
James Reed
Yeah.
[50:55]
Matthew Jones
And it did attract a certain time.
[50:57]
James Reed
Is it still like that?
[50:58]
Matthew Jones
No, it's really cleaned up. You know, it's become much more sort of human.
[51:03]
James Reed
So it's different. Yeah, different era.
[51:05]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. You know, the laws have changed, you know. You know, restaurants now have HR departments and they have to abide to the laws. You know, you can't make people work 70 hours a week.
[51:14]
James Reed
Yeah, yeah, no, quite. So what's. What's next for you then? I mean, you're obviously expanding with the franchises.
[51:22]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[51:23]
James Reed
I mean, what are you going to do with your school? Which I think is a wonderful thing.
[51:26]
Matthew Jones
The most recent addition to the To Bred Ahead's, you know, educational side has really been the academy. So this is long in the making. Took us six years of, of, of sort of design because it was always, you know, on the, on the, on the cards. We really wanted to design a, a program where young people can come in and learn. Not really just young. Anybody can come in and learn to be a baker. And not just a baker, but an artisan baker in our field, which is, you know, it's about sourdoughs, it's about natural yeast, it's about via moiserie croissant. You know, it's a particular type of baking and it's really the one that's growing. That's the, you know, if you look at the successful bakeries in London, be it dusty knuckle or be it toad or beer, you know, there's a bunch of us and this is the stuff we do, you know, it's, it's those sexy focaccias, the sourdough pizzas. That's, that's our thing, you know, that's what we teach.
[52:23]
James Reed
Are you just creating lots of future competitors doing that?
[52:26]
Matthew Jones
Ah, the market's so deep.
[52:28]
James Reed
Yeah.
[52:28]
Matthew Jones
You know.
[52:31]
James Reed
You'Re generous spirited.
[52:32]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. Look, this, this, you know, I'm not going to own bakery worldwide, you know what I mean? No, it's not gonna happen, you know.
[52:39]
James Reed
So, so if someone wants to go on your academy, it takes six months, is it? So people listening, where do they go to sign up for that?
[52:46]
Matthew Jones
They send Chris an email, actually. Chrisbread ahead dot com. And this is. Hey, brother, I'd love to be one of your new students. Students. The chances are we'll end up employing them because they, they sort of.
[52:56]
James Reed
So it's a great way to get a job as well.
[52:57]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, yeah, it is, yeah. We give them real skills. Six months. So got a really good teacher. Weigella, who is a gifted baker, comes also from a sort of chef background. So foodie.
[53:09]
James Reed
So many of the people signing up, school leavers, are they or are they older?
[53:13]
Matthew Jones
Bit of a mix. I mean, we've got one, one girl at the moment who came actually over from California. Yeah. Yes, came over, moved to London. Yeah. So real, real mixture.
[53:23]
James Reed
Very famous chef school in Ireland, isn't there?
[53:26]
Matthew Jones
Bally Malu.
[53:26]
James Reed
Yeah. This is attached to a hotel and so many people have been There. Yeah, Trained there.
[53:32]
Matthew Jones
Well, that's how these things.
[53:33]
James Reed
Creating that in the bakery world, you know, such a nice combination.
[53:38]
Matthew Jones
And I suppose that the thing I've learned really is, you know, it's time in the market is really what's needed because you know, even if you go back to the early days of something like Cordon Blur, it would have been originally a couple of people in a room saying hey, let's do some teaching. And, and it grows. And you know these, the really good businesses I always think grow organically and they just, most importantly is the, the substance is pure.
[54:04]
James Reed
Yes. So. So the, the school and the bakery are sort of complementary in that sense.
[54:11]
Matthew Jones
Very much.
[54:11]
James Reed
And will grow organically.
[54:13]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[54:13]
James Reed
In a, in a way together, which is really powerful.
[54:15]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. And we, you know, the, the school side of it, it's, you know, it's quite informal, quite relaxed. I mean we. The. The norm, the day to day classes we run a three hours for just individuals who come along. You know, it's Mr. Mr. And Mrs. Smith from Tunbridge Wells will come up for to make Italian baking lesson. You know we do a lot of school groups. A lot. Almost every day we do a school group and they'll come in to make you know, some bath buns or whatever. We do corporate bookings. So that's a really big one for us. A lot of corporate like team, Team building groups.
[54:49]
James Reed
That's fun.
[54:49]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, it's something really good, you know. So if you're listening.
[54:53]
James Reed
Yeah.
[54:53]
Matthew Jones
Bring your office on a team building course.
[54:55]
James Reed
So who do they email for that? Chris again?
[54:58]
Matthew Jones
No, that'll be Molly. Molly. Because Molly is.
[55:01]
James Reed
Put all this in the show Demon.
[55:03]
Matthew Jones
You know, she's.
[55:03]
James Reed
No, no. Well, that would be a really fun. On a team building day. I can see that.
[55:07]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[55:07]
James Reed
I think everyone would really enjoy.
[55:09]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, we had, we have loads of. I'm not if. I'm sure if I'm allowed to mention company names on here, but we have.
[55:14]
James Reed
What you like on here. Yeah, this is free speech.
[55:16]
Matthew Jones
Last week we had, we had Ikea, we had Bentley Motors, we had Soho House recently they're all coming into the team building. Yeah, they love it.
[55:23]
James Reed
That's brilliant. I didn't know you did that.
[55:25]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, yeah. It's huge. And they go away with big bags of product. It's really generous, you know and just we have this nice. It's a lovely spirit we've created.
[55:32]
James Reed
And is that in Wembley?
[55:33]
Matthew Jones
Wembley and borough.
[55:34]
James Reed
Yeah, as well. So now I have to ask you this because it's, it's front page News on my city. We're in London on the City AM today and as well as all these lovely donuts in front of me, the front story on City Am says slim pickings and there's grocery sales fall as popularity of weight loss jab leads to fewer items in the bagging area. I mean our tastes going to change as people take big weight loss jabs or other.
[56:01]
Matthew Jones
Well, I mean it's, it's interesting for sure. I mean that, you know, the Ozempic thing is, you know, I, I know three people are taking his mpic. It's everywhere. It's so big. Has it affected our sales? No, we are.
[56:14]
James Reed
So you.
[56:15]
Matthew Jones
We're growing.
[56:16]
James Reed
The bagging area hasn't been affected at Bacon?
[56:18]
Matthew Jones
No, it has. Not at all.
[56:21]
James Reed
So. So this might happen, but it's not. You're not seeing it yet.
[56:24]
Matthew Jones
No, true. But you know, I think people slightly.
[56:28]
James Reed
Different things, that's all.
[56:29]
Matthew Jones
I think we're still pretty much. We're quite a niche brand. I mean we're typically the sort of, we're a treat day, you know, we're something that people have once a month.
[56:36]
James Reed
Yeah.
[56:36]
Matthew Jones
You know, we're not, you know, we're not a, we're not on every corner.
[56:40]
James Reed
No.
[56:40]
Matthew Jones
You know, so I mean we're still relatively a small business. You know, it's a. Yeah. We have five locations in London. We have about 200 staff. It's.
[56:48]
James Reed
How many franchises are you at?
[56:50]
Matthew Jones
We have so 11 locations open in the Middle East. They'll open another four or five this year and we're opening Philippines. So we'll. By the end of this year we'll have probably 2020.
[57:01]
James Reed
So that's fast growing as well.
[57:03]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, but it's, you know, once it gets it, once it gets a grip, it can really grow very fast.
[57:07]
James Reed
Yeah. So that's, that's for the next year or two. That's a big focus.
[57:11]
Matthew Jones
It's a big thing.
[57:12]
James Reed
Yeah. Well, I wish you huge success with that. Thanks for coming and talking to me. Now I'm going to ask you two questions which I always ask at the end. You kind of half answered one or more than half answered one.
[57:23]
Matthew Jones
One.
[57:23]
James Reed
Which is what gets you up on a Monday morning. That's my first question.
[57:27]
Matthew Jones
Gosh. Well, I'm an early riser, so I'm just up, you know, it's an early.
[57:34]
James Reed
Riser in your world.
[57:35]
Matthew Jones
5, 5, 4, 5. I get, I'm one of those people, I get up early on holiday, you know, so terrible.
[57:43]
James Reed
How early did you get up on holiday?
[57:44]
Matthew Jones
Four or five. Terrible. Yeah.
[57:52]
James Reed
So you get up early because I.
[57:54]
Matthew Jones
Like to go for a walk around, go and have a cup of coffee, just sort of go through my emails, see what's going on, make some notes, sit down with my pen, you know. Yeah. I've just.
[58:03]
James Reed
So you've always been like to connect.
[58:05]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not one for snoozing. Yeah, that give me that impression.
[58:10]
James Reed
And then my last question is question from my interview book. Why you 101 interview questions you'll never fear again then it's very simple to. Where do you see yourself in 5 years time?
[58:21]
Matthew Jones
Gosh, in 5 years time. Pretty much the same I, I would hope really at the moment I've got a really good sort of work life balance, probably the best it's ever been. I'd like to be playing the piano.
[58:37]
James Reed
Describe that because you said earlier that you work seven days a week.
[58:40]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[58:41]
James Reed
So what's your best work life balance look like for you?
[58:43]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, so what it looks like now I, I get up, up early, have a cup of tea, do sort of potter about the house, take my son Magnus to school, he's only four so.
[58:55]
James Reed
I've got my four year old grandson staying at. Such fun.
[58:58]
Matthew Jones
Oh gosh, I love it. And then I go down to Pavilion Road, I see the guys there, we've got great team, see Kelly and the team and hey guys, they make me a double espresso. Then I nip over to Borough, I'll see the team there, see what's in season, see what's on the market, have chat to some of the traders and then sometimes go to up to Wembley. I go to the gym, I have a trainer, I train almost every day doing various things on exercise stuff, you know.
[59:27]
James Reed
Right, that's good.
[59:28]
Matthew Jones
I'm really into that and it's great and I like to sort of be back home by mid afternoon and do some cooking.
[59:36]
James Reed
Right.
[59:37]
Matthew Jones
You know, what do you cook? Nice risotto maybe samoso buco maybe simple steak, you know, just simple food really.
[59:45]
James Reed
But fish, that's your evening meal.
[59:47]
Matthew Jones
Some soup. Yeah. And then go to bed at half 8, 9 and start over again.
[59:52]
James Reed
So you're very visible in the business.
[59:54]
Matthew Jones
Very, yeah.
[59:55]
James Reed
You're out there with everyone all the time.
[59:57]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, I, I so you know everyone?
[59:59]
James Reed
You know everyone I imagine.
[60:00]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, I know all the stuff. Yeah.
[60:02]
James Reed
That's going to change. It gets bigger and bigger, isn't it?
[60:04]
Matthew Jones
It will.
[60:04]
James Reed
How do you feel about that?
[60:06]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, I'll, I'll adapt. You have to.
[60:09]
James Reed
I mean it's Strange, because our companies sort of grown over time and. And I've gone from knowing pretty much everyone to not.
[60:16]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, yeah. But it's, you know, and I think it's. I'm in the best place. Funny. I mean, you know, I'm in the best place I've ever been in my life right now.
[60:26]
James Reed
Fantastic.
[60:26]
Matthew Jones
Which is an extraordinary thing because it's been a pretty. Pretty turbulent ride at times. You know, it's really. And I really value the consistency of how I live now. It's really. I really treasure that. That. And I just don't want to disrupt it too much. So, yeah, in five years, if it's the same or something close to right now, that'd be great.
[60:46]
James Reed
So, Matthew, under. Under here, I've got a couple of your books.
[60:49]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[60:50]
James Reed
You're a published author. Bread Ahead, the Expert Home Baker and Baking School, the Bread Ahead Cookbook. Can I pass them through to you?
[60:59]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[60:59]
James Reed
Tell us about these quickly.
[61:01]
Matthew Jones
So, lovely.
[61:02]
James Reed
Why did you do books and why would we buy?
[61:06]
Matthew Jones
Right, well, the first one, this was written in 2014, baking school, the Bread Ahead Cookbook. Which was really a way to condense the Bakery School, the lessons into a cookbook. So. Because it became really clear that the. The audience we have in the bakery school, you know, they're home bakers and they. They love. They were all asking for a book, so we. Julie did one. It's a lot of work doing a cookbook. Wow. You know, it's one of photography.
[61:35]
James Reed
Has to be particularly good, the whole.
[61:36]
Matthew Jones
Thing, you know, it really scientific, the approach. You need a certain 100 recipes and this and 100 recipes. Yeah, yeah.
[61:45]
James Reed
Didn't do just one, you did two.
[61:47]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. And then during lockdown, because it wasn't busy enough.
[61:50]
James Reed
Right, okay.
[61:52]
Matthew Jones
But I think, you know, it was really.
[61:54]
James Reed
So that second one's your lockdown one.
[61:56]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[61:56]
James Reed
Again, 100 recipes.
[61:58]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. Near about. I think it's 97 or something. And. Yeah, just lots of nice recipes in there and it's, you know, getting those really. It helps me to. To sort of reflect on my life because it required a lot of me to do this, you know, and this is the sort of stuff that needs a pretty stable mind. I mean, I wouldn't have done this if I'd been down the pub every five minutes, you know, it needed all of my brain to really focus on. To deliver.
[62:22]
James Reed
Yeah.
[62:23]
Matthew Jones
And it's such a satisfying thing when it's actually there and done.
[62:28]
James Reed
It's very nice. I. I like writing books. I do books as well. And then I A better. Better than a business card sort of thing. Here's some of our best ideas.
[62:36]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, it's, it's really solid.
[62:38]
James Reed
It's sort of recorded somehow in a way that it's for posterity as well. People pick that up in years time and.
[62:44]
Matthew Jones
Yeah.
[62:44]
James Reed
Will enjoy what you've suggested.
[62:46]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. And a lot of people, you know, it's a very giftable thing and it's just. Yeah. Lovely to do. And it, it does again, it's, you know, being an author, you know, I don't, I don't really consider myself an author really, but it's just nice to have. Yes, I suppose it is.
[63:02]
James Reed
Baker and an author.
[63:04]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. So the expert home baker has been published in other languages, so in Spanish, Dutch and South Korean.
[63:12]
James Reed
I, I had a. My interview book was translated into South Korean or Korean and it was 101 interview questions, but they asked if they could take four out that weren't culturally appropriate.
[63:24]
Matthew Jones
Really?
[63:25]
James Reed
Yeah. One of them was, have you ever stolen a pen from work? So that's not in there. So I don't. But baking obviously doesn't have this challenge, so you don't keep all of that in. Great.
[63:37]
Matthew Jones
Well, should we eat a donut?
[63:39]
James Reed
Yeah. I think we should conclude by eating a donut.
[63:42]
Matthew Jones
Yeah. Enjoy. James, bite deep. I'm gonna go for the lemon one here.
[63:52]
James Reed
This is fabulous.
[63:53]
Matthew Jones
Yeah, it's a lot more than just a donut.
[63:58]
James Reed
I don't want to make people too jealous who might be listening, but anywhere near Borough Market, get down there. Thank you very much. This is delicious. Thank you, Matthew, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reid, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reid, Matthew and Bread ahead. All links are in the show notes. See you next time.