39. Smarter, fairer, faster: How AI is redefining graduate hiring | James Uffindell

Summary

Podcast Summary: Episode 39 - "Smarter, Fairer, Faster: How AI is Redefining Graduate Hiring" with James Uffindel

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Introduction

In Episode 39 of "James Reed: All About Business," host James Reed CBE, Chairman and CEO of Reed Group, sits down with James Uffindel, founder and CEO of Bright Network. Released on August 4, 2025, this episode explores the transformative role of AI in graduate hiring, the mission behind Bright Network, and actionable advice for both young talent and businesses navigating the modern job market.

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Background of Bright Network

James Uffindel opens the discussion by outlining the origins and mission of Bright Network.

[01:08] James Uffindel: "BrightNetwork is a tech, AI and data platform and we are the number one way that undergraduates and students connect with jobs and opportunities."

Bright Network was established to address the gaps Uffindel experienced during his own university years. Coming from a modest background and being the first in his family to attend a top-tier university like Oxford, he recognized the barriers many students face in accessing quality career opportunities.

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Mission and Use of Technology

Uffindel elaborates on how Bright Network leverages technology to democratize access to job opportunities.

[06:05] James Uffindel: "We use four different types of data to better match you to opportunities in terms of jobs, learning, and being."

Bright Network utilizes AI and data analytics across four key areas:

1. Declared Data: Information directly provided by students, such as their university, field of study, and career interests.
2. Behavioral Data: Insights into how students interact with the platform, including content engagement and job searches.
3. Psychometric Data: Results from career pathway tests designed to help students understand suitable career paths.
4. Learning Data: Data from over a million hours of online learning, enabling personalized content delivery.

This multifaceted approach ensures highly personalized and efficient matching between students and employers.

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Internship Experience UK

A significant initiative discussed is Internship Experience UK, launched during the pandemic to provide virtual internships.

[18:36] James Uffindel: "We launched a program called Internship Experience UK, which became the biggest internship experience globally. Over 150,000 young people have now done it."

This program not only kept students engaged during lockdowns but also scaled Bright Network's reach, reinforcing its leadership in the graduate recruitment market.

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Impact of AI on Graduate Hiring

The conversation shifts to the profound impact of AI on the graduate job market.

[24:22] James Uffindel: "The number of applications has gone from about 80 applications per graduate role to about 120."

AI has streamlined the application process for students, making it easier to apply for multiple roles. Simultaneously, it has allowed employers to better manage and sift through an increased volume of applications. However, this has also intensified competition, making it crucial for candidates to stand out through resilience and genuine passion rather than solely relying on academic achievements.

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Challenges and Opportunities

Reed raises concerns about the ethical implications of AI in hiring, particularly the potential for bias and the depersonalization of the recruitment process.

[26:04] James Uffindel: "I personally think there should always be a human decision in any hiring process."

Uffindel agrees, emphasizing the necessity of maintaining human oversight to ensure fairness and mitigate biases inherent in AI algorithms.

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Personal Development and Skills

The discussion highlights the increasing importance of soft skills in an AI-dominated job market.

[33:36] James Uffindel: "With AI and a lot of hard skills becoming commoditized, we're back to soft skills in terms of how you can influence a team, how you can lead, how you can communicate."

Skills such as communication, problem-solving, and resilience are becoming critical as AI handles more routine tasks.

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Inclusivity and Social Mobility

Bright Network's commitment to fostering inclusivity and enhancing social mobility is a central theme.

[48:20] James Uffindel: "60% of people from ethnic minority backgrounds still believe that their background is holding them back."

Through targeted events and personalized matchmaking, Bright Network aims to level the playing field, ensuring that talented individuals from diverse backgrounds have equal access to opportunities.

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Future Plans and Growth

Looking ahead, Uffindel shares Bright Network's growth strategies, including technological advancements and international expansion.

[56:41] James Uffindel: "Continuing to invest in our technology is the number one kind of focus."

Plans include expanding into new markets like Germany and potentially the United States, leveraging their robust data-driven platform to maintain market leadership.

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Closing Thoughts

In his closing remarks, Uffindel reflects on the importance of unlocking hidden potential and the role of mentorship in professional development.

[58:49] James Uffindel: "Everyone can go further than they think they can with the right support and help."

He emphasizes Bright Network's mission to support and mentor members, ensuring they have the resources and confidence to achieve their career aspirations.

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Notable Quotes

• "Everyone can go further than they think they can with the right support and help." [59:34]
• "AI is making people more productive, but it's also reshaping the competitive landscape for graduate roles." [24:22]
• "A growth mindset is essential to handle the constant changes in the job market." [45:05]
• "There should always be a human decision in any hiring process." [26:04]

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Conclusion

Episode 39 of "James Reed: All About Business" offers a comprehensive look into how AI is revolutionizing graduate hiring. Through the insights shared by James Uffindel, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the challenges and opportunities presented by technology in the recruitment landscape. Bright Network's innovative use of AI and commitment to inclusivity serve as a model for businesses aiming to navigate and thrive in the evolving job market.

For young professionals and businesses alike, the episode underscores the importance of adaptability, resilience, and the continuous development of both hard and soft skills to succeed in a rapidly changing environment.

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Transcript

[James Reid]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Joining me today on All About Business is James Uffindel, founder and CEO of Bright Network, an innovative organization on the UK job market scene that connects data, talent and businesses in exciting new ways. Having successfully collaborated with leading employers such as Google, Apple and Amazon, James shares valuable insights and his knowledge for both young talent and businesses on how to find a good path forward. Today on All About Business, I'm really, really pleased to welcome James Uffindel, who is the CEO and founder of of Bright Network. This is a network and a platform that supports young people and students in their early career progress, I suppose it's fair to say, but I'm going to ask you my first question to you, James, is apart from welcoming you, what is Bright Network? Explain.

[James Uffindel]

Thanks, James, and really great to be here. BrightNetwork is a tech, AI and data platform and we are the number one way that undergraduates and students connect with jobs and opportunities. So we set up the platform because we believe that talent is everywhere of opportunity is and how we can use tech, AI and data to better build the workforce of tomorrow.

[James Reid]

Yeah, so go on, how do you do that? How do you use tech, AI and data?

[James Uffindel]

So they say.

[James Reid]

I've got lots of questions around.

[James Uffindel]

No, it's great. Well, let's get into this statement, let's get into them and it's great to obviously particularly have the conversation with you given everything kind of you and your business has achieved and is achieving in the world of recruitment. So there's kind of lots of overlap.

[James Reid]

Yeah, exactly. I'm interested in that.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. So say founders kind of solve their own problems. So I guess the background to Bright Network goes back to the experience I had when I was at university. When I grew up it was a kind of single parent working family. My mum and dad are separated. When I was three, we were living in rented accommodation when my mum.

[James Reid]

Where was this?

[James Uffindel]

Up in Warwickshire. And when mum remarried, the biggest kind of qualification in our household was my stepdad's taxi driving license. So neither of my parents had been to university. But I got lucky. I got to go to a good school and I got to had an amazing teacher and he encouraged me to apply to a top university. So I was lucky enough to get into Oxford and went off to Oxford, but still didn't come from that kind of like professional services. I describe as mudded background. And at university I was working in the local pub. I also had worked as a controller for my stepfather's taxi driving business where he worked.

[James Reid]

You answered the phone?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, basically answering the phone all through the night stuff. Yeah. Well, actually, no, I never did night shifts, actually, I used to. I used to do Sundays because that's when the tax drivers, all their problems would have been a day off and I sent them in the wrong directions and stuff. Right. I learned my skills.

[James Reid]

Definitely a controller. I was the controller that's now done by Uber.

[James Uffindel]

Exactly. And it's now a great example of AI and automation. Anyway, I went off to university and I had no idea what to do when I left university. The career service at the time kind of wasn't very engaging unless you wanted to do kind of banking or finance. It was very narrow. And I had an idea for a startup and I started an organization helping other students apply to top tier universities. And the school I went to didn't send a lot of students. The service was focused on Oxford and Cambridge. Didn't send a lot of students to Oxford and Cambridge. And I thought there's an opportunity here to help students, non traditional backgrounds, kind of access kind of Oxford and Cambridge, basically.

[James Reid]

So this is quite a small market, I imagine.

[James Uffindel]

Yes. Yeah.

[James Reid]

And other people you're talking to, well healed, if that's right. Were they able to pay for this?

[James Uffindel]

Yes.

[James Reid]

Did you not charge them or how did that work?

[James Uffindel]

So where it worked was we had a model where we worked with a lot of local education authorities and schools. So we had about, we worked with about kind of 200 schools going into schools and encouraging them to apply to top tier universities, into the schools. And then we did have a model where if people kind of wanted to come to us individually, they could, but also if anybody couldn't afford it, they got the service for free. And looking back now, we're all searching for growth right in this economy we're in. It was absolutely rampant. And it was a nice cash model in terms of often kind of you got paid up front. So I was able to grow that business through my 20s and I sold that business to essentially to private equity in about 10 years ago.

[James Reid]

So what was that called?

[James Uffindel]

It was a business called Oxbridge Applications.

[James Reid]

Is it still going?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, it's still going. It's continued to grow and develop and prosper. And a nice reminder that kind of hopefully build a premium asset is good for everybody. To answer your question then, I was then kind of early 30s and I was like, well, what do I want to do next? And these students were coming to me saying, what do I do next? How do I get into the world of work. And these are all hopefully like pretty bright, hunger, ambitious students. And I realized, back to the question you asked me about where did Bright Network come from? I realized that the problems I'd experienced at university were still very prevalent. And in terms of social mobility, democratisation, how do you access and make sure that everybody has kind of opportunity, that problem still existed. And what I'd learned through my own journey of kind of, I guess, being Oxford and seeing how certain kind of families operated, I call it like the tap on the shoulder. There's a guy who's at university with me and went off to do a paid internship. I was working at the Red Lion Pub in Stratford on Avon and he went to do a legal internship. And that was because his older sister was a lawyer and she said, if you want to get into law, you need to do a vacation scheme and, and this is what you do. So then I thought about how often social mobility can be facilitated and the networks that happen in kind of, often wealthy, well connected families and the data that happens in wealthy, well connected families because young people in those families are often getting these taps on the shoulder from, you know, you're at maths, you're at a top university, Uncle Dave might run a private equity firm, go and work at Uncle Dave's private equity firm. And I was like, actually what you can do here is put all these amazing bright young people from all walks of life on a platform and then use the data to personalize experience. So that's what we do on Bright Network. You sign up for Bright Network and then we use four different types of data to better match you to opportunities in terms of jobs, learning, you being.

[James Reid]

A student at this point.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, exactly. To better match you two opportunities. And then it's all free for the student members. So we've got over a million on the platform now and we have an amazing client roster, about 300 blue chips, enterprise level clients, pairs to access talents.

[James Reid]

So I had a little dig around on your website. It seemed to be very much promoting internships in the early summer. And you were encouraging people to sign up for internships.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

Is that right? Is that your. So what's the business model there? These people sign up and then they get placed into companies. Is that what you hope happens? And you can, yeah. Me charge an introduction fee?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, we don't work on the kind of introduction fee basis. The way the business model works is interestingly, you've got about half a million kind of graduates coming out of UK universities a year now. There are about 50,000 graduate schemes. So if you think about a kind of a graduate program, now the vast majority of these graduate programs are filled by people who've already worked at that organization. So if you want to get into a top tier organisation, the reality is applying your third year is too late. So doing an internship, so classically a second year program is the way to get ahead. But then actually, interestingly with that, a lot of those internship places in the second year are actually given to students who have done the first year programme. So actually from a social mobility angle, if you want to break into one of these organisations that is all in these skyscrapers that we have around us right here in the heart of London, you actually need to do a first year internship. So part of the mission is then encouraging students when they land on campus to get ahead and to get stuck into their career early. Because if they don't do the first year internship, they're less likely to get the second year internship attention and less likely to get the final year a graduate replacement scheme. And actually if you think about the war for talent that's going on and I was reading your article the day about what we've got happening around decreasing demand for jobs and kind of, and obviously in terms of the empty vacancy rate going from about, I think it's about 1.3 million to about 700,000 now, there is still however, incredibly intense competition for the top talent. So in terms of the mission, the data and the AI technology allows bright young people to understand how this works in terms of getting their first job, but also the employers to compete for that talent more efficiently.

[James Reid]

So you would recommend to a young person that they should get an internship at the end of their first year, go back in the second and then get a job in the third.

[James Uffindel]

Is that how you. Yeah, I think there's a no brainer if you're 18, landing at university to really start exploring your career. So that gives kind of three main benefits. You can build what we call CV capital, so you can boost your CV and show kind of dedicated experience in the sector in doing kind of a first year internship. Secondly, it helps you understand if that job is good for you or not because you're actually kind of doing the work you're in the organization. I did a week as a accountancy work experience when I was basically 16, 17. It taught me I'd be the world's worst accountants. So actually kind of understanding whether that job is a good fit or not. And thirdly, skills, you're developing your skills which might be Transferable to another sector.

[James Reid]

Yeah. So I'm so listening to this and thinking I have two sort of anxieties. One is the nature of 18 and 19 year olds that you know they all going to want to do this sort of, you know as a parent I'm thinking how would I get my 19 year old to go and do that? So I imagine a lot of them as I've got other ideas.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

And then on the other side a lot of these businesses, you know, these Uncle Dave's that you referred to are thinking I don't need so many graduates now because we're going to automate. So there's a sort of couple of challenges there. How do you deal with those challenges? How do you make this type of route way appealing to the young people and how do you keep the Uncle Dave's going back for more?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, you've touched on two huge areas there in terms of monitoration. Yeah, I'll go for the first one Then we can obviously maybe come back to the AI automation piece which is obviously particularly prevalent given everything that's happening.

[James Reid]

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[James Uffindel]

So the great thing with the Data on the BrightNetwork platform we've got about billion plus bits of data now and that's obviously topping up live all the time in terms of students on the platform is that you can then segment the audience and we call them the kind of non engagers so they're as part of the audience on the network there are the students who might sign up but then kind of not really engage much. So with that audience there it's about incentives and particularly with Gen Z how do you create the kind of. Right. Incentives for them to engage and make. Yeah, well, well it's personalization. Bright Network is all about personalization at scale. So a classic, you then kind of if you have somebody say for example your daughter is on the platform and signed up not really engaged them you might send them an article being for example, you know five, five reasons to make sure you do a first year program and that kind of like slightly clickbaity. Right. They need to read it now you wouldn't send that to a student who knew had already applied for five or ten first year internships. So it's the personalization at scale and that's the Bright Network platform. We have kind of four data sets we use, we use the declared Data. So they might say, look, I'm at this university, I'm studying maths and I want to go into investment banking. But then you get secondly, the behavioral data. So what are they actually doing on the platform to understand, you know, are they reading certain content, are they clicking on certain jobs? The level of engagement that's happening then psychometric data is fascinating. So we've built a two minute career pathway test to help you decide what career you might want to go into. Fourthly, learning data.

[James Reid]

So we do two minutes.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, two minute test. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of modern web products and you can give it more information. But in this world of kind of, you know, so much attention deficit and people have short retention spans. A two minute test to kind of look at a first, like what career choice could be of interest. And again, you think if you grew up in a certain family, you've got lots of people from certain sectors around you, you're having that given to you. And then finally is learning data. So you do about a million hours of online learning on the platform every year. So we use that to then try and personalize the content to where, to where the student is. So for example, if a student is just looking at or engaging with content, for example, in the charity sector, we're not going to then start sending them content about consultancy or banking or law because they're not going to engage with it because we know they are kind of hyper focused. So it's personalization at scale, I guess, much like, you know, Instagram works or something like that.

[James Reid]

Yeah. I remember doing those tests when I was at school. I think it was a paper my brother and I did. It told him he should be a librarian.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

And it told me I should be a truck driver.

[James Uffindel]

There you go.

[James Reid]

The weird thing is he's been a librarian for 30 plus years and thoroughly enjoyed it. And I love a road trip.

[James Uffindel]

There you go. Exactly.

[James Reid]

I just wish it was a truck business.

[James Uffindel]

It would have been very successful.

[James Reid]

I urge people to try a bit more jobs and opportunities before they set settle on one thing.

[James Uffindel]

There's so much choice out there.

[James Reid]

Exactly. That's the thing I think a lot of people miss sometimes get locked into a view that I'm struggling to get something when actually there's a world of opportunities and it's about taking a bit of time and approaching them strategically.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, I would say, I mean, absolutely. That's what we've tried to systemize. So the reality is with young people, 90% of them, the primary source of careers advice is the parents. So, you know, if you've got a parent who's kind of a butcher or whatever like that, that is going to be the primary place that used to.

[James Reid]

Be very common that people would do the same. I mean, it's still fairly common, even surnames. Right.

[James Uffindel]

Baker and Butcher, I guess, being an example.

[James Reid]

But it was very common that you'd follow in the same line of work. Yeah, it's become less common, I suppose, because of so much change.

[James Uffindel]

Absolutely. And what excites me is, I guess having done economics at university is it's a matching problem in terms of you've got all these great jobs out there, you've got all these. This great talent, supply and demand. How do you create more efficient matches? And for the employers and the companies we're lucky enough to work with, what it does is as well as allowing them to get in front of that super high performance, kind of diverse candidate pool, which is, you know, comes from.

[James Reid]

So how does it work with the employees? Do they subscribe to your.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. And employees. Yes. So they.

[James Reid]

Would you explain the model for.

[James Uffindel]

It's a yearly subscription model. So essentially they are buying a kind of a yearly access to the platform. Then they're able to do a number of things. The primary one is they're able to kind of segment our database so they can take our network of 1.2 million now and actually be like, we, we want to get to more candidates who have X, Y and Z qualities. And then we can send them a very, very targeted bespoke email. And these email rates have about a 3x average open rate compared to kind of job boards because we're getting so much data based on those data sets. So when you get that targeted email, it's a bit like getting an email from an older brother or sister. Because we're not kind of spamming you because we're sending you super personalized information. You're more likely to engage that and it's more relevant to you. So back to the personalization points.

[James Reid]

And also, what would it say in the email?

[James Uffindel]

It would say, for example, hi J Names. As you're in your second year and your interest in jobs in investment banking, you might want to know that the internship for XYZ bank, one of our 300 enterprise clients, closes next week. Click here to apply.

[James Reid]

Right.

[James Uffindel]

So that's our classic kind of model, but it's super, super personalized.

[James Reid]

So you're prompting them a lot.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, so sometimes these E shots, these kind of E alerts can be down to just like 12 people, I think is our minimum. There was a consultancy firm and they wanted to target people at a certain university and they were having coffee in the local coffee shop and they wanted, they were keen to get to kind of, they wanted more female.

[James Reid]

How many of those 12 showed up?

[James Uffindel]

I don't know the answer actually. I think in terms of kind of that email. Yeah, I think got a pretty high kind of open rate from memory. And then they approached to apply and turn up and meet.

[James Reid]

So you won't know necessarily who gets jobs where out of this.

[James Uffindel]

So we do track to. We've built quite a cool tool. So some employers will tell us who's got jobs where. When I went into the business.

[James Reid]

Because you're not charging an introduction fee.

[James Uffindel]

No, no, we don't.

[James Reid]

You're not. That's not a moment that you.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. Our model is based on it's platform model, model fee. And one thing I noticed in the graduate recruitment industry, it was a classic, that famous quote, you know, I know these firms seem to be saying, I know half my marketing budget's a waste of money, I just don't know which half. So tracking what we call attribution is a key part of the business. So what firms can do is they can actually through our system anonymously and all GDPR compliant, work out who they've hired from where. And that then allows them to know that we are getting them great results. And our whole business model is built on, we get them great results, they get a great service, they renew the following year and we're then able to actually look at certain of our members and actually track their journey. Like for example, they signed up, they kind of like looked at a certain profile and then you can actually see all the way through to hire.

[James Reid]

So as a member, what you call.

[James Uffindel]

A customer, a member, is a bright network member. So you join the platform as what.

[James Reid]

A business or a person that we.

[James Uffindel]

Talk about as a person. Yeah.

[James Reid]

So what do you call the businesses?

[James Uffindel]

Client partners.

[James Reid]

Okay.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. So you've got about 300.

[James Reid]

You become a member of the platform.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. You sign up for the member.

[James Reid]

So you said there are 1.2 million members. I'm just trying to understand. Yeah, some of those will be quite recent graduates and I guess some. I mean you've been going more than a decade. Yeah, we quite sort of.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. So in terms of our old. So we signed up about a quarter of a million members last year. So we've already cracked acquisition as a business. And I guess it's, you know, thinking about kind of the World of business is that idea of being customer obsessed with. And when we started, I was like, okay, what do these young people need? How do you give it to them? They wanted more personalization, bigger access to kind of opportunities in terms of kind of making sure. So on the Bright Network platform, we make sure we list as many opportunities as we can in terms of putting that stuff in front of our members and the personalization thing. And also events. We actually do events for about 100,000 a year in person and virtual. So we.

[James Reid]

What sort of events?

[James Uffindel]

So we'd always done events and these are essentially very kind of focused sector events where, for example, women in technology, black talent in banking, women in leadership, like very focused events, using the data to really put the right candidates in front of the right employers. So, for example, we do the Women in technology events is all about how do big corporates get access to more often kind of STEM females who want to pursue a career in technology. However, back to crisis, being the mother of invention. When the pandemic hits, we, as much of the world was, we're thrown into kind of complete kind of disruption. But we really wanted to make sure we stood up for our community. So we launched a program called Internship Experience uk, which was set about during the pandemic because employers were saying, we can't have these young people into the offices for the internships.

[James Reid]

No, I remember that, yeah. And done virtually.

[James Uffindel]

Yes, exactly. As well, young people can go into office. And we realized there was a huge opportunity to connect them virtually. So we launched a program called Internship Experience UK. It became the biggest internship experience globally. Over 150,000 young people have now done it. We've continued to run it every summer.

[James Reid]

So you run that from the. It was an idea that arose in the pandemic, just kept going with it.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, absolutely. So that's.

[James Reid]

How does that work? If you want to do one of these internships, what do you need to do?

[James Uffindel]

Absolutely. Well, you need to sign up for Bright Network and we do it this year starts on the 14th of July to the 17th of July. We have different streams. For example, kind of banking and. Well, yeah, sorry if you've already missed it, but depends when it goes. When, when it goes out, it doesn't matter when.

[James Reid]

So it's once a year, is it?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, it's once a year.

[James Reid]

In July.

[James Uffindel]

In July. And it allows our members, our brand network members, to get kind of really valuable kind of work experience with the employers. They come on and do sessions and it allows them to sample what certain.

[James Reid]

And what age what age are the people?

[James Uffindel]

So typically undergraduates. So typically kind of 18 to 21 year olds. But it was fascinating lesson when that hit in terms of business and entrepreneurship, because I remember reading an article about there was a famous volcano in 1815, I think it was called Mount Samura, and it erupted and that year, 1815, it was known as the year with no summer. And obviously there was this kind of global catastrophe. And what happened was it created a volcano, what's called a volcanic winter in 1816, putting up so much ash into the. Into the environment that crops all over the world were dying and. And as a result horses were too expensive to feed. So a lot of kind of horses were dying. And at this incredible horrific crisis came, came the bicycle. So the bicycle was actually invented as a. They think as a result of this global phenomenon.

[James Reid]

So I, I don't get the connection.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

So talking about your poor horse died, so you had to get a bike.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, essentially. Well invented. Yeah. As an alternative mode of transport. They really.

[James Reid]

Because of that.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, they think, yeah. What happened with us then when the pandemic hit was we launched our internship experience uk, but that then, then propelled us to being number one in the market in terms of how young people get their first job. Because it became such scale, we didn't kind of charge anybody for it and it really propelled us to being kind of front of the market. So I thought it was a nice reminder in terms of business that change is the only constant and when something happens, it can actually lead to a kind of unplanned.

[James Reid]

So, yeah, so that's an interesting observation and I, I think looking around now, it seems like change is happening really fast and in a really substantial way.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

Taking that sort of lesson, what would you be your advice to people now? And what's the new bicycle?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, it's. It's a great question. What is the new bicycle? One of the best quotes I've heard is that you're not. Your job's not going to get taken by AI, it's going to get taken by somebody using AI. So all of us have to kind of become.

[James Reid]

Do you believe that?

[James Uffindel]

I actually do.

[James Reid]

I think actually that's the optimistic version.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

A pessimistic version is it's going to.

[James Uffindel]

Be taken by AI in the short term. I think kind of the research seems to show that often these things can kind of not be. Can take a time to kind of bed in. I think personally, I think the AI, the impact of AI is quite insidious. It's happening kind of almost like under the counter, kind of often kind of unnoticed, incrementally. So, for example, if you take software developers copilot making them 30% more productive kind of copywriters.

[James Reid]

So you have fewer of them.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, absolutely. And it makes kind of existing workforce more efficient or just quite frankly, which.

[James Reid]

Would explain why there are fewer vacancies.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. And it's fascinating what is behind that kind of fewer vacancy number. My own observation, I guess, being in the market is that the big blue chips we work with are kind of very stable. You know, if you have a graduate program, you're hiring a thousand graduates a year, you're probably going to be pretty stable around that.

[James Reid]

But not what's been reported though. You know, with these accountancy firms all cutting back on graduate trainings, you're saying that's not widely the case?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. So we're not from your market. We're not experiencing that significantly. However, the graduate market at the moment is tough and there are about a 33% decline year on year in terms of the number of roles being advertised. They're talking about being the worst. Some data that it was the worst kind of market at the moment for graduates since some 2018.

[James Reid]

Yeah, I've heard that too.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. But what we're seeing from the big blue chips is stability. However, back to my point earlier is that only about 10% of graduates go into classic kind of graduate schemes. So if you think about more about those kind of SMEs and smaller businesses and it's hard to distill, isn't it? Is it AI that's causing this reduction in vacancies? Is it the general, general kind of economic environment? You've got the 20 billion kind of jobs tax. So what is actually economic malaise?

[James Reid]

Perhaps, but I think the AI is having a growing impact. Would be my observation this automation is widespread.

[James Uffindel]

Yes.

[James Reid]

And I think one challenge for I'm not just saying you and your business, but us as a society is all these young people are going to be coming out of university probably looking for, broadly speaking, what would have been described as white collar jobs. And they're going to be increasingly scarce, I think. Where next? I suppose what do we do? Because you want to keep placing them and keep them engaged and happy with your platform. And as a country we need to make sure that we don't have great cohorts of people who are disappointed and out of work.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, I completely agree. I think the big emphasis here is to make sure that young people are getting up to speed on AI and making sure. They are getting skilled in that area so that they are competitive. Back to your point earlier about kind of making sure that, that people engage with their career early on and don't kind of disengage. Because those kind of graduates who haven't done much, they are probably the ones kind of most at risk because it isn't a competitive market. A big phenomenon we've seen in our sector is the number of applications per vacancy rocketing up due to, we believe due to AI. So what do you mean the number of applications has gone from about 80 applications per graduate role to about 120.

[James Reid]

And so 50% increase.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. And that's.

[James Reid]

What do you mean by that? What's AI got to do with it?

[James Uffindel]

So it's doing two things. Firstly, it's making it easier for graduates to put in applications using AI. So our own research on Bright Network suggests that about 50% of students are using AI in their application, which is up from 38% kind of last year.

[James Reid]

You should discount the other 50%. They're obviously not.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, well, you switched on. Well, interestingly, happens to them. Interesting. Interestingly, 40% of firms aren't giving guidance about AI use. So some firms, all the firms are.

[James Reid]

Using it, aren't they?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, well, the firms are using it, but some, some firms are saying basically kind of, you know, use it in the right way. Other firms are saying use it, just, just please don't use it. Interestingly, when we ask our members would they comply with rules set down by firms that have said please don't use it, they say they, you know, the vast majority say they would kind of comply with the rules in terms hopefully being kind of ethical. And then the other thing is obviously there are these bots, which I'm not.

[James Reid]

Going to say the opp.

[James Uffindel]

No, I don't know. I don't know. I don't. I generally believe in people being kind of quite ethical, but you know, you know, you never know.

[James Reid]

Well, I don't. I'm feeling a slightly aggrieved for a lot of these young people in that I'm hearing stories of companies using AI to interview people.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

So you've come across that. You're nodding.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Reid]

I mean, what's going on? How does that work? And is it acceptable for a computer to reject a human being?

[James Uffindel]

No, I think there should always be a human decision in any hiring horror.

[James Reid]

But that's not happening though, is it?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, I, I personally, I think there should always be.

[James Reid]

I know, so do I, but that's not happening. Now these companies, a lot of them, these big blue chips you describe, are using this software to sort of screen people out.

[James Uffindel]

I think there should always be ethically a kind of a human decision at some point in their prison.

[James Reid]

But the problem works now because, because they've also then got so many applicants and as you're saying, well, 100.

[James Uffindel]

Imagine having 120 applicants for every job. And the other way ideal. No, no, the other way that candidates are using AI is, you know, there are bots now where you can literally set the bot up to go and apply for jobs for you and the next day you can wake up and have interviews arranged.

[James Reid]

A rejection from AI people. I mean, I was, I was on the radio the other day and there was a woman who had applied for 647 training accountants and jobs and she finally got one.

[James Uffindel]

Great.

[James Reid]

So all credit to her, but she'd been doing it two a day, so she wasn't using AI, but it taken her a long time, which I think a lot of people are in that situation.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the market has been kind of really thrown by AI because the employers are having to come up with new solutions because they're obviously flooded with applications and you know, there's a whole kind of reordering going on. But that's a great example there about kind of back to advice for young people is that really understanding what employers want is absolutely critical and what that young lady there has shown is resilience. So on our Bright Network research, when we ask employers, what do you want and what are you after? The number one thing they will say is passion for the business, but the number two thing is resilience. Now, students and young people only rank resilience about kind of seventh in terms of what they think employers are after. Instead, students and young people think the thing that employers really want is a 2:1. And actually employers only rank that as about the 10th most important thing.

[James Reid]

A 2:1.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, so I think that's a degree grade. Sorry, degree grade.

[James Reid]

I've never asked Anyone in my 30 year career what their degree is.

[James Uffindel]

Actually. I don't know why I work so hard at university. It is a bit of a waste of time looking back.

[James Reid]

I'm not interested in their history skills.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, so I think back to your point about what advice can we give young people is we can do. I guess, for example, the great work you're doing here explaining kind of commercial awareness and really educating young people about what employers are looking for is key. Making sure they're getting up to speed and developing their skills, staying competitive. And I think kind of the key thing is this reminder that change really is the only constant. That is how you handle uncertainty. And that's where resilience is so critical. Right.

[James Reid]

So, yeah, I'm sort of thinking about this because you just told me and this isn't. I'm not trying to catch you out here. I'm genuinely interested. The Jobs Advertiser are now getting 120 applicants on average, up from 80. And we're talking about members or candidates who've applied for many, many jobs to employers who say they want passion for the company and resilience. So the converse of that I'm hearing is, if I said to you I've applied for 600 jobs, being rejected, but I really love your business and I'd like you to get me a chance, would the 600 rejections make you think better or worse of me?

[James Uffindel]

Well, if I was. If I was a.

[James Reid]

No, you're the. You're the person on the other side of the table. Do I want to see this applicant called Reid?

[James Uffindel]

Well, you probably wouldn't disclose him. 600.

[James Reid]

That's what's interesting to me because. That's what's interesting to me because I'm thinking back a long time ago. I interviewed a young man who said on his CV he got a first class degree from Imperial. I didn't ask him and he was obviously super intelligent and he'd been rejected from all these jobs, so I hired him immediately. And I think he just had a squint or something, you know, something like that that sort of was, you know, shouldn't have been taken into account all. But I think that might have been the reason. So when he told me, I've been rejected from every heart of a medium and he was brilliant.

[James Uffindel]

He turned out well.

[James Reid]

Yeah.

[James Uffindel]

Great.

[James Reid]

So in a way, it might be the people who keep going are the ones you want, aren't they? The ones who don't get fed up and angrier, but they'll just keep trying?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, absolutely.

[James Reid]

They're the ones we all want 100%. How do we identify them and flag them to those organizations? I mean, this is a challenge for us as people in this space that we share. I'm asking you for your ideas.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, well, I think what you give an example of there is a robust hiring process, because I think the more you can systemize the high crime process and make it more scientific, which you did there, because it sounds like he might have been discounted by previous roles back in the day because of essentially a body language tick, the more you can actually make a systematic kind of evidence based hiring decision, which I think employers have made leaps and bounds in that, trying to get rid of things like unconscious bias just because somebody has a certain kind of body language quality there you described and what we see amongst the kind of blue chip employers who work with, because they're obviously pretty robust kind of successful organizations, is a scientific kind of hiring process. And back to how they compete and get the best talents by casting their net wide, super wide and not for example, just going after graduates from certain universities or certain degree disciplines or certain backgrounds. They can then filter to find those needles in the haystack.

[James Reid]

So what are they looking for? You said resilience was second.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

How can you have passion for an organization that you've never been into and you know so little about? I mean, is that a reasonable request?

[James Uffindel]

I think it is quite. I think it is.

[James Reid]

How could I suddenly feel passion for Google?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

When they're one of your clients.

[James Uffindel]

Well, yeah.

[James Reid]

So how do I feel that?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, I guess being bought into the Google mission and the kind of culture fit and wanting to have.

[James Reid]

So what's your advice to your, your.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

How do they develop their passion? Because I mean it takes a bit of time to feel passionate.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, I guess knowing about the business, knowing what it's kind of trying to achieve, knowing about the mission of the business, the values. I know you have your values that read and I think.

[James Reid]

So you're saying immerse, you're saying not just a bit of homework, you're saying immerse yourself in this.

[James Uffindel]

I think the more you can know the organization, the culture you're joining, you think about culture being kind of how things are done around here.

[James Reid]

So you should ask AI, shouldn't you?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, well that might be. Tell me about the culture at Google. Say that.

[James Reid]

Yeah, well you should.

[James Uffindel]

I mean it depends on the.

[James Reid]

Some of these clients might have said, no, no, no, no, don't do that.

[James Uffindel]

You've got to find out.

[James Reid]

You've got to use what you can to find out what you can.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. Other qualities, what they're looking for is communication skills. So interestingly, with AI and a lot of hard skills becoming commoditized, we're back to, back to soft skills in terms of how you can influence a team, how you can lead, how you can communicate. So actually interestingly, softer skills are becoming more important, which is why our research shows that young people are actually now more prone to wanting to go into the office so 58% of our bright network members want to be in the office four days or more a week, which is up from 9% last year. So offices are obviously incredible learning machines. And then also problem solving skills is another thing that employers are really looking for. For in terms of top of the stack.

[James Reid]

Yeah. Well, our research shows the same that Gen Z want to be in the workplace.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

And. And it's often the older people who have nicer homes and.

[James Uffindel]

And it's a problem dogs to walk.

[James Reid]

And all that sort of stuff.

[James Uffindel]

And it's very.

[James Reid]

Deliveries to receive.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

That prefer work at home, which I find a bit unconvincing.

[James Uffindel]

I think there's a moral.

[James Reid]

And help the young people get started.

[James Uffindel]

I completely agree and I think there's a moral argument to it, particularly for those people who've been lucky enough to go through that kind of dynamic office environment. And offices are. As I said, offices are great learning machines. And our research turns up, they show to learn from the older people in the organization and if they're not there and they're padding around, they're later in their careers. If we've got nicer houses. Exactly. Kind of dog to walk. Maybe a spouse. So kind of working from home. I think there is a moral responsibility.

[James Reid]

I'm very worried about all this because I think a lot of those jobs just being lined up to be automated or offshore.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

Because if you can pad around at home in Croydon or Kingston, you can also pad around at home in Soweto or Hungary somewhere. And that's what's happening. All the jobs are being offshore.

[James Uffindel]

Well, as you know and you talk about, you know, we have a massive productivity gap in the UK. We're about 20. Less productive than.

[James Reid]

Say that again.

[James Uffindel]

About 20% less productive in terms of productivity, aren't we, than kind of mainland Europe.

[James Reid]

20%.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. In terms of. It takes them about four days. It takes us back.

[James Reid]

So we have to work five days for them to.

[James Uffindel]

Well, that's 25% but you're not far off. Yeah. And then we know that Britain are the second biggest when it comes to remote work after Canada. And we also. The research is increasing.

[James Reid]

It snows a lot in Canada.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of fair up. But we also know that remote working overall seems to be less productive now. Of course we should have flexible working arrangements and it's really beneficial for kind of. Of some sex society, for example, kind of working parents. But it's getting the balance right.

[James Reid]

Yeah. I think that every argument for flexibility. But you're Right. I wouldn't disagree. And it makes those roles, I think more jeopardy.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, so.

[James Reid]

So your advice to young people is.

[James Uffindel]

Show up, get into the office. I think absolutely. Get into the office, build those relationships, practice those soft skills, practice collaborating, learn from kind of senior people in the business, have those serendipitous conversations about your work and that will help you get ahead.

[James Reid]

You've talked a lot about the companies you deal with and you describe them as blue chip. I'm imagining sort of banks, consulting firms, technology companies, the sort of names that people would know.

[James Uffindel]

Yes.

[James Reid]

It's a certain type of person, is it who wants to go to the best school and work in a big bank. There are lots of people who, who don't want to do that or who would rather be in a smaller environment or work in a non profit or do you cater for them?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, well, the great thing about the Bright network platform, it's built to help young people connect with the world of work. And one of the things I love most about the model is that the platform caters for every undergraduate and students. So even though the firms are using it to kind of engage the talent they want to hire, if you're not 100% sure what you want to do, or you probably don't want to engage your career maybe until you've left university or you want to go and work for a startup, all the advice and information on those kind of two key things we're solving for. Going back to the problem, hopefully I was trying to solve that I experienced as a founder is like, what should I do with my life? Back to your point about what are the opportunities out there? How do I match to a specific career? And secondly, how do I get ahead? We still help you even if you don't go and work at one of our clients, much less space you're doing at Reed.

[James Reid]

Well, we have a lot of clients that are smaller organizations. I mean we work with big organizations and small. But I, I just think in my experience, or just observing, it's often you get a lot of good experience in a smaller organization where you may have to do a bit of everything.

[James Uffindel]

Absolutely.

[James Reid]

And if you're just clocked, if you become a specialist in a bigger one and that's good for early career development.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, absolutely. And most graduates will actually go and work for an SME. That's where the majority of them go. And as Napoleon said, we're a nation of shopkeepers. Right. We've got 5 million SMEs and they are the greatest.

[James Reid]

I don't think he meant that as a compliment. I think he was shown to be foolish in his sneering.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, yeah, I agree, he was definitely meaning as a trip down. But the reality of us having lots of kind of small businesses is, is, is, is the case.

[James Reid]

So how do you see the landscape? I mean you, you're using AI firstly. I mean, what do you use it for in your business? Because I'd like to understand that. And then how do you see it changing the landscape?

[James Uffindel]

So we bought AI into our business about four years ago. So pre ChatGPT, I was very much onto our tech team, kind of reading articles about what was coming as the kind of the business. So what we use it, what we bought it in for then, which is what we use it for now, is the match matching. So in terms of the talent on the platform and how we match them to roles, when we introduced a. Onto the platform, introduced our matching ability by about 10x using the data I was describing earlier in terms of.

[James Reid]

So how did that actually improve the matching? Because I mean there were matchings. There's been matching software around for a long time.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. So one of our core products is our personalized newsletter that every one of our members gets. So the roles we list in there, so the click through rates when the matching was done by AI, which previously we were using kind of humans to put these newsletters.

[James Reid]

So the AI would post different jobs to different individuals.

[James Uffindel]

It's completely personalized.

[James Reid]

It could mass produce that as well, whereas before it would have been a mass producer. So it mass produces personalized communications with specific jobs maybe of interest to that individual.

[James Uffindel]

Individual, yeah.

[James Reid]

So that, yeah, that's something that wouldn't have been easy to do before AI.

[James Uffindel]

No, 100%.

[James Reid]

So you're using it for that?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, that's, that's been a kind of.

[James Reid]

And how did it improve your business?

[James Uffindel]

Well, so improve the matching rate by 10x. So if you think about our job being we've got these 1.2 million bright network members, we've got these 300 corporates and we're trying to kind of more efficiently match them. So a use case might be a young person who has no idea they could go and work in a sector earning a huge salary, gets put in front of them a role that they wouldn't even thought they were a good match for. But actually all the data suggests they could be a really good match for it. And then they apply for that role, they get the role, the client's really happy because they've got a super Great. Hire. The young person's really happy. That creates, obviously a case study, so that becomes quite powerful.

[James Reid]

But you don't necessarily track who's hired.

[James Uffindel]

We are able to kind of track, track to hire.

[James Reid]

When do you use AI to do that?

[James Uffindel]

We don't use AI to do that, but we do use a data platform we built where the employers can see actually which of their young people come from Bright Network.

[James Reid]

Right. And has your business grown as a result of this?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, absolutely.

[James Reid]

Well, that's encouraging for people who want jobs.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

So what, so four years ago to now, how's it grown?

[James Uffindel]

Well, in terms of our kind of headcount, we've probably gone from about maybe about 40, something like that kind of four years ago to about roughly the headcount size, about 100 now.

[James Reid]

Right. So. But, but those people wouldn't be doing that task.

[James Uffindel]

No, but our overall revenue was growing, which has meant more marketing people, more kind of people to look after our.

[James Reid]

Clients in other areas.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

So would you say that was a key decision, a key moment for you doing that, or were there other things that happened four years ago in terms.

[James Uffindel]

Of kind of powering our growth? Growth? Yeah, I think investment in technology. We've raised venture capital and we've put a lot of that money into technology. And that then has given us some more of a competitive edge in the market in terms of us becoming number one player in our very specific part of the. Of the jobs markets. And then other things we've done that has really kind of powered our growth has been investing in bringing more students onto the platform. So the bigger audience we have, the more.

[James Reid]

So what do you, how do you, how do you do that? I mean. Mean, I'm just interested in anyone who's starting a business who wants to sort of create a network or. It's quite hard to do it, isn't it? I mean, there are not many social networks.

[James Uffindel]

No. Building it from scratch. And the kind of cold start problem. And I was able to get.

[James Reid]

What did you do?

[James Uffindel]

Well, so initially I had access to my database to students. My previous business, that kind of was like the catalyst. And then it was a lot of getting out on campus, getting into universities, building relationships.

[James Reid]

So literally bounding the pavement.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, absolutely. We used to give out mugs, actually, which is a great kind of story. Although, you know, if someone signed up, they got a Bright Network mug, or they hadn't really thought through logistics, casting around all these mugs around campus, that was quite a big operational experience. And then we also kind of build relationships with societies. But now we've got to a point in terms of our audience where because we're the number one, because the product is so good for young people it creates kind of a self fulfilling prophecy.

[James Reid]

One of my young graduate colleagues told me she'd done one of your interns.

[James Uffindel]

Oh great. Okay.

[James Reid]

How'd she find it? She said it was very good.

[James Uffindel]

Excellent.

[James Reid]

And she said it was really. It gave her a bit of confidence and it made. And it also ticked off a box that was required.

[James Uffindel]

Great. Well they're allowed to put on their CV and then. Yeah, the syllabus as well is.

[James Reid]

Yeah, so I think that that was, she thought it was very good.

[James Uffindel]

Great. One please intervention on your part. Right now we have members everywhere. Yeah, great.

[James Reid]

So. So you go to Bright Network if you want to do an internship and it's easy to do it.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Reid]

Which doesn't cost the member anyway.

[James Uffindel]

Completely free. Free. It's all free for the members. And yeah, we're trying to solve those two problems. What should I do with my life? And, and how do I get ahead?

[James Reid]

So okay, so AI you've found helpful in your business. But I suppose it's interesting in that example you described it sort of doing a job that a person wasn't actually able to do before in your case, I mean it must be in other businesses doing jobs that people were able to do before. I mean you're saying you're sort of seeing that.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, absolutely.

[James Reid]

So where do you think this is heading? Because you want to place graduates into jobs, you're using AI. You're probably looking at other ways to use AI. Where's it headed from here? Because 2025 I think will be thought of as the year of AI. The year it became mainstream, widely deployed, everyone using it really. Some better than others.

[James Uffindel]

Yes.

[James Reid]

Where's it going next?

[James Uffindel]

Well, the tech community seems pretty kind of split, split on, you know, is AI a good thing or a bad thing? Personally I think it's going to have a hugely and is already having a hugely transformative impact on, on society and I think yeah, you, you, you, I think insidiously is going to be taking kind of jobs but we might not see it all the time because essentially it's making kind of people kind of more productive. And if you think about like for example like junior Techn. Technology roles or marketeer roles, arguably you need kind of, you do need, need kind of less of these people. So the emphasis is on the young people to stay competitive ultimately kind of for us great organizations are always going to want to hire great entry level talents. And our job is to make sure that our mission in terms of building the workforce of tomorrow is to make sure that talent is aware of how far it can go and the opportunities out there. So yeah, we're moving to potentially a very disruptive time and we've got to make sure that young people are equipped for this.

[James Reid]

Yeah, that's a good point. I mean being equipped for this is an interesting question. How do we equip people for something that's so hard to foretell?

[James Uffindel]

I think coming back to obviously we can do kind of the basic things like encourage them to use AI and maybe even like start building into the syllabus, et cetera. But I think it's this idea of this kind of growth mindset which is one of the three values of our business. This is how do you kind of handle change and being able to adapt to new environments. We need as much as a country and if you think about our position as a country and where we are, we need to be showing as much resilience as possible and adapting to the kind of changes are coming.

[James Reid]

So you said growth mindset was one of your values. I just want to know what the other two are.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. So will to win in terms of kind of being competitive and wanting to be the best. And that's hopefully kind of done well for us in terms of becoming number on the market and then the final one is trusted to deliver. The idea of like we are trusted by our client partners to deliver. Every year they pay us to do a job and we do that job and we.

[James Reid]

So when they subscribe with you just want to understand what is the job that they expect you to do.

[James Uffindel]

Because generate high quality applications just through these mailings. Yeah.

[James Reid]

So that people keep coming into the.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. And various other things on our. On our tech platform as well. And. And then hire great talents and then using this again the following year. Because it's a very cyclical business.

[James Reid]

And is it very seasonal?

[James Uffindel]

Yes, yes, it's a very, very seasonal business.

[James Reid]

So when is it super busy?

[James Uffindel]

So typically applications are open from very roughly period kind of September to January for third year, second year and first year internships. So quite a small window. And some of those are very specific in terms of kind of. They might only be like a month window when they're open. Which again I had no idea when I was at university when I was working in the pub. So our ability to tell students when to apply for certain roles and that's a tip I'll Give to any student. Listening to this is really think about when employers are advertising vacancies and then they review the campaigns typically in kind of the first kind of half of the year and then they will book in their campaign the following year. So the kind of classic milk round season in terms of timing, it's been elongated and kind of messed around has changed a little bit, but it's still, it's still already there in terms of acquisition.

[James Reid]

So the companies still show up on campus and stuff?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. So they still go on campus, still do that? Yeah, absolutely. But the great thing the Bright Network platform has enabled is by putting all students in the same place, it's made those kind of things a little bit more efficient. I think we do a big event every year called Bright Network Festival which has about 4,000 come to to it.

[James Reid]

Oh great, that sounds like a good event to attend.

[James Uffindel]

You should come along and have a look.

[James Reid]

I will, I will.

[James Uffindel]

That's right. You should come and do. It's the Queen Elizabeth Conference center directly opposite Westminster. Have about 4,000 come along and yeah, we'd love to kind of have you there if you want to come and do a how to be a successful entrepreneur talk or whatever you want to talk about.

[James Reid]

That's very kind. I might take you up on that.

[James Uffindel]

Be great.

[James Reid]

So. So one of the, one of the motivations I understand behind you sort of setting up the business in this way was to try and make things fairer in the job market, particularly for people with what are described as protected characteristics, but people from minority groups or people with disabilities, what have you done to make that happen?

[James Uffindel]

So this is where the AI and data and tech gets really interesting because through that you can create better matching. So 60% of people from ethnic minority backgrounds still believe that their background is holding them back. 40% from social mobility backgrounds believe their backgrounds holding them back. So by coming back to the tap on the shoulder and putting the right opportunities in front of you, whatever your background, not just because you're at a certain university, it allows the max gene to work a lot more efficiently.

[James Reid]

So these people feel this even if they're at these high university, high end universities.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Reid]

They don't feel because they've got to Cambridge that.

[James Uffindel]

No, an imposter syndrome's a huge thing as well.

[James Reid]

An issue.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, absolutely.

[James Reid]

So they might have come from a family.

[James Uffindel]

No one had been university, first generation university or.

[James Reid]

And they still feel that this is holding them back.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, that there's still a perception of that. So what, what we try to do.

[James Reid]

Is there a truth in that?

[James Uffindel]

So the data doesn't suggest so, but.

[James Reid]

So it's more perception than reality.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, absolutely. So the big thing, the important thing.

[James Reid]

To know is not true.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, absolutely. Like, like firms want the best and brightest. Yeah, it's irrelevant, right?

[James Reid]

It's absolutely, completely. I was so disappointed that people are still feeling that.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, there is that. There is that perception. So we also run kind of super targeted events. For example, we do you know about black talent in banking events. We do like a proud to be events. Like we do neurodiverse leaders events. So looking and really trying to give specific, specific help to people to, to create a quality of opportunity and giving them the advice and information they need to succeed ensures that they have kind of fair access.

[James Reid]

Yeah, I mean one of, one of the other I, I'm, I've observed sort of changes is that some companies have sort of reigned in their graduate programs because they want to make sure they recruit people from a whole range of backgrounds and they.

[James Uffindel]

Military or.

[James Reid]

Yeah. And they thought that people from universities were of a certain type and so they might not take as many or they might not do it in the same way. Are they wrong to do that now?

[James Uffindel]

Well, the reality is that students at university are incredibly diverse in terms of.

[James Reid]

That's what I'm wondering.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, absolutely.

[James Reid]

When I was at university they were not.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, absene. And now they are.

[James Reid]

So does that sort of change the sort of thinking a bit?

[James Uffindel]

I think firms should be as inclusive as possible and reaching out to as wider candidate pool as possible, be that on university or encouraging, you know, kind of returners to work after paternity or maternity, et cetera. So yeah, having a broad reach as possible, however you want to do that and having a very systematic, systemic, organized and recruitment. Recruitment process gives you a competitive advantage. So kind of go broad, get, get out to as many applicants as possible and then make sure your recruitment process is as robust as possible.

[James Reid]

So do you anonymize people so you don't do that? Some people argue that's what should be.

[James Uffindel]

But some because we're generating applications for the firms. Some firms will then be, you know, kind of like have scrap cvs for example. That's been something that's kind of been a bit a of a phenomenon, not looking at academics. So yeah, there is some movements like.

[James Reid]

That happening in the market, but is that. I've heard that too, but they never seem to last very long and people say I want to know what.

[James Uffindel]

HR has trained, the train, the Internet.

[James Reid]

Is that a bad Thing to know that though, I mean it's part of your sort of life journey, isn't it?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

You're saying on the one hand these clients want students from these top universities and then on the other they can't.

[James Uffindel]

See well no, so I didn't see from the top universities. I think there is a. Isn't that historically I think things have changed. So some firms would just go to top universities and now they're able to kind of target all universities with platforms like Bright Network because they're able to get kind of broader access in terms of all those candidates being on the platform. I do think kind of academics can obviously show something and you know, if you've got a, A, if you've got.

[James Reid]

A first from it shows how good you are academics.

[James Uffindel]

Well, it can show certain things. Right, but it can show you know, in terms of, but certain jobs, you.

[James Reid]

Know, if you're going to be a doctor or something, it's pretty important.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, absolutely. There's a vacation angle and there's also, it is, you know, good academics can be a signal of kind of cognitive speed and ability for example but what you want to make sure is that you're giving kind of fair access to say for example there's a student who grew up on a, on a councilor stay is the first generation to go to university and then maybe they hadn't gone to a top tier university because maybe they weren't encouraged by their school to apply to a top tier university. Through the Duxbrite network they can still access top employers and making sure they.

[James Reid]

Get very and importantly I'm thinking the top employer can access them 100% because you want those people in your organization because they'll bring a lot with them.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, absolutely. They bring the kind of hunger and the drive and arguably well a candidate like that has actually proved moved a greater distance traveled than a student who's gone to a top private school, got the top grades and gone to a top university.

[James Reid]

Yeah. They haven't had any setbacks.

[James Uffindel]

No, no. Back to our points.

[James Reid]

The resilience still to be, still to be found.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

One thing I'd say that you said that companies said pageant for the company and resilience were the top two when I did a huge piece of research about I mean it's more than 12 years ago now you're asking companies what they were looking for in terms of mindset qualities. The thing that came top always was integrity and trustworthiness. You don't want to hire a crook, you want people to show up on time. Is that not still the case?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

And they don't talk about that in schools and colleges.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. I mean, values is obviously kind of critically important. And personal values. Personal values. It's not.

[James Reid]

Well, you don't go and say to someone in the job interview, I'm not a crook.

[James Uffindel]

No.

[James Reid]

So how do you come across as someone who's sort of honest and upright? Because that's what they want.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, absolutely. It's not something that they. I guess it would come out generally through the graduate kind of recruitment process in terms of kind of looking for what is the composition of someone's kind of character. And I think, think, you know, they're hopefully maybe kind of taking people at kind of face value more. I think this is where probation periods come in, because you obviously only know what an individual is really like until they've started.

[James Reid]

Yeah. I mean, you can be. And people change as well. So it's a sort of. It's so important, I think, the sort of integrity aspect.

[James Uffindel]

Yes.

[James Reid]

So we developed the. The 3G mindset.

[James Uffindel]

Okay, what was it?

[James Reid]

Well, I'll tell you in our book, the put your mindset to work, which was written years ago, verse G was. Was good, and that was integrity and kindness. So two types of good. The second G was grit, as in resilience and persistence, which you've absolutely settled on and stuff. And the third G was global, which was open growth. Mindset could have been growth. And those were the three things that we sort of summarized they were looking at.

[James Uffindel]

I think they're great. I would say you should write a book, but you've already done it.

[James Reid]

Maybe we should do a single equal. Yeah, but I think that. And this book was prompted at the time by someone saying at a conference I was at, they were asked from. They were from some skills body from the government. You know, what skills will most be in demand in 10 years time. So we're talking right now, back 10 years ago, and I was sitting there thinking, well, I have no idea what skills will be most in demand. I mean, I didn't know I was going to be working podcast producers, but I do know what sort of people I want to hire in 10 years. And they have these qualities and these characteristics.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, these fundamental kind of.

[James Reid]

So you're doing the same in a sense.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. These fundamental underlying kind of qualities, values, characteristics, because they kind of last forever. Right.

[James Reid]

Character is everything.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. Back to kind of change being the only constants. Those fundamental underlying qualities are often what makes for high performance.

[James Reid]

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's potentially the one constant that doesn't change. So is there anything you'd like to add about how your business is going to evolve from here into the future? Do you have any ambitious plans or some initiatives coming out you want to share? Because I'm intrigued, yes.

[James Uffindel]

So continuing to invest in our technology is the number one kind of focus, because that then continues to give us an edge in the market. And we're also working on some quite interesting technology at the moment that looks at how employers can handle kind of mass applications, an AI. So we've got some interesting stuff in. In the pipeline there that allows kind of candidates and employers to kind of think about how they use AI when it comes to the app, the application process. So that's quite interesting. Our tech hub is based up in Edinburgh, so we've got some interesting kind of work happening there, which is exciting.

[James Reid]

And so did you do that in house?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, all of. All our technology is done in house.

[James Reid]

Right.

[James Uffindel]

So that's. Yeah, in Edinburgh. Yeah.

[James Reid]

That's interesting.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

Is there a sort of tech Silicon Glen, is it called?

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, yeah. So we set up because our. We had had our tech hub in London, but we found it incredibly competitive to. To hire talents and to get the kind of right people. And our CTO at the time, funnily enough, located to Edinburgh and we thought it would be really interested, kind of build a tech hub up there. And it's actually worked really, really well in terms of kind of the phenomenal talents up there and kind of buildings. Yeah, it's Grimes. A great city, isn't it?

[James Reid]

Yeah, absolutely. We did that. We put a tech team in Sligo in the west of Ireland.

[James Uffindel]

Did you really? Wow. Is it still there?

[James Reid]

Yeah, people love living there and working there. And there's a very good tech college not far away, which people graduate from and join us.

[James Uffindel]

Do they? Fantastic.

[James Reid]

Only about 20, but it's nice. Yeah, but it's good. They do really good work. So I think that's quite interesting because there's a great sense of gravity, there's a great gravitational pull of, you know, being in, well, ultimately Silicon Valley, I suppose, but. But there are other ways of approaching tech, especially if you're a smaller business or a startup entrepreneur.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. You've got to be agile and we've got about 15 up there now, so it's works really well.

[James Reid]

Yeah, I mean, I wish you continuing success with that. No forgetting how the business evolves. Now, I've got two questions that I always ask at the end, James.

[James Uffindel]

Right.

[James Reid]

And the first question, there's a clue on the wall is what gets you.

[James Uffindel]

Up on a Monday morning? I think for me it's the mission in the business and unleashing the talent of our Bright Network members. And the wonderful thing we get in testimonial is having kind of had, had had our members sign up when they're 18 at land at university and then get these incredible jobs is just seeing how far they can go. And I think everybody can probably go further than they think they can with the right support and help. And I, I had that support and help when I was at school. I had this incredible teacher who encouraged me to apply to top universities. I think it's the mission for me and unleashing kind of the talent on Bright Network to, to go far.

[James Reid]

You said something interesting or just caught my attention. Everyone can go further than they think they can.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

So you're saying we've got sort of hidden potential or hidden from ourselves. Yeah, I like that idea.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah. And I think it's the power of having somebody believe in you. So at Bright Network, our big things like believing in our members, backing them, being on their side again, much like that kind of older brother or sister and we think about kind of having.

[James Reid]

You must have had a nice older brother or sister.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

Not every relationship.

[James Uffindel]

Well, technically I was saying, child, you.

[James Reid]

Have a utopian view of brothers.

[James Uffindel]

So.

[James Reid]

But I know what you mean.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

And that's kind of like someone on your side.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, absolutely.

[James Reid]

And that's where cheering you on.

[James Uffindel]

Absolutely. With mentoring. Almost like the difference between kind of mentoring with a capital M and a little M. You can have kind of like, you know, proper kind of mentors with a capital M or you know, you meet up with down there and kind of like trying to help you develop. And you have mentors that are little M who are like, like, you know, you're learning from in the office or seeing, seeing stuff. So having somebody believe in you. And again, if you think about how we try and power more social mobility about what works in these kind of, again these kind of wealthy, well connected families is they've got somebody believing them often these kids and gunning for them. And we try and do that on Bright Network for every one of our members. So yeah, that's what gets me out of bed every morning.

[James Reid]

That's great. And my last question, where do you see yourself in 5 years, years time?

[James Uffindel]

In 5 years time kind of building a bright network. The business is growing, developing. We've got a lot of opportunities in the business and the Big things are alumni. So once our members get their first job, we've created this kind of hyper personalized network of talents who know us, know Bright network in terms of being trusted, deliver. We deliver great results for them. They've gone and got their first job. So you know, that's an interesting kind of growth opportunity for us as well. So. Yeah. And kind of overseas is also an interesting opportunity for us.

[James Reid]

I was wondering that. You bet. You might be going into where you're opening in Germany.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, two years ago.

[James Reid]

Yeah, it's two years. You got any other countries you look at?

[James Uffindel]

Just, just that so far. Yeah. I mean we call Germany one at a time. Yeah. We're learning about international and how to do it. And we picked Germany because. And it was where our clients asked us to go. So we spoke to our class. Yeah, they wanted, they wanted Germany.

[James Reid]

Yeah. Not America.

[James Uffindel]

They did want America as well. The reason we didn't go for America first was because it's a, you know, a significant amount of capital to launch well in America and so we wanted to learn. Learn about international first. Yeah, yeah. America could be next.

[James Reid]

Well, I wish you every success with that.

[James Uffindel]

Thank you very much.

[James Reid]

Get you back in five years time. Well, it's going.

[James Uffindel]

Yeah, brilliant. Well, I've really enjoyed it.

[James Reid]

Thanks very much. Thank you for coming to talk with me.

[James Uffindel]

Absolute pleasure. Thank you.

[James Reid]

Thank you James, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reid, James Uffindel and Bright Network. All links are in the show notes. See you next time.