← James Reed: all about business
James Reed: all about business
44. Should you hire ex offenders? Reed's report is here and the verdict is in! | Alex Head
00:50:56
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Resettling into society after prison is a huge challenge, especially when employers are reluctant to hire people with a criminal record. Too often talented individuals are overlooked, leaving skills and potential untapped and making them far more likely to reoffend. Today on All About Business, we're unpacking Reid's 2025 prison leavers report, which reveals a significant drop in the number of employers hiring prison leavers since 2013. Joining me is Alex Head, founder and owner of Social Pantry, the UK's leading hospitality employer of prison leavers, to discuss why hiring prison leavers matters and how businesses can approach it. Well, today on All About Business, I'm truly delighted to welcome Alex Head, who's the CEO and founder of the Social Pantry, which is a catering business. I heard you go, yes. And it's a fabulous catering business based here in London. And one of the things that's very special about it is that you employ lots of prison leavers, Alex, and I'm going to ask you all about that because our company, Read, in partnership, has just produced a report, I have it with me, employer attitudes to employing people with criminal convictions. And we were evaluating how attitudes had changed from when we last did a piece of research in 2013 to now in 2025. And concerningly, attitudes have moved against employing prisoners, prison leavers and people with criminal convictions. And one in five employers say they would not consider someone with a conviction at all. So I've asked you here partly to learn about you and your business, Alex, but partly to learn about what it takes to successfully employ prison leavers. Let's start at the beginning. How did you get going and what do you do and how's it going?
- [02:15]
B
Perfect. Well, thanks so much for having me. So I started Social Pantry 14 years ago at prison. Prior to that, when I was young, I was had a lot of energy. I had been expelled from school and it was over the summer holidays that my mum said, well, you better start thinking about how you're going to make some money. And I'd always had a passion for cooking and kind of being in the kitchen. So I actually printed out some clip art posters, I don't know if you remember Clipart back in the day. And I put them around my dad's office and then actually people would phone up with their little sandwich orders. I'd make the sandwich, jump on my bike and go and deliver them. And that was long time ago. And at that point I thought, oh.
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A
So how old were you at this point?
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B
Probably kind of 15, 16.
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A
So you started out as an entrepreneur as a teenager?
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B
Yes.
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A
Your school career was checkered.
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B
Checkered, exactly.
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A
And you got on your bike, literally, as Norman Tebbett would have said.
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B
Exactly.
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A
To find some work.
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B
Yeah. And you know, naively at that point I thought, oh, what can be so hard about, you know, you know, the hospitality industry. And now I know that it's definitely a challenging industry but a brilliant one to be in as well.
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A
But you started from selling sandwiches to where you are now, where you employ, I believe, prisoners.
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B
Yeah, exactly.
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A
A lot of people though. How many people?
- [03:20]
B
At the moment we've got kind of just, I think just over 85 full time team members, which is brilliant. And there's three pillars to the business. There is our events catering. So where we're on list, it's lots of brilliant venues in London from National Portrait Gallery to Roundhouse, Somerset House and they do all sorts of events from kind of brand concepts to high end weddings, high net worth individuals and they do about 30 to 40 events a week. So they are a busy team. Lots of logistics, brilliant, brilliant menu planning and we create, you know, incredible events. Then we've got our BNI arm to the business which is office catering. So where employers are wanting to kind of pull back their teams into the office. Obviously a way to do that is to provide a brilliant, healthy, nutritious lunch. And that's where social pantry and a number of law firms, tech companies and kind of fintech companies where the employers are as an employee benefit, giving their team lunches. And then we have our standalone sites. So we won Tower Bridge a couple of years ago. So we're the exclusive caterer at Tower Bridge where lots of kind of corporates and private events get hosted in the two walkways, the glass walkways above Tower Bridge. So it really is stunning. And then we also have Mansion House, the Old Bailey, so Central Criminal Court where we feed the judges every day in the judges dining room. And we also have a couple of cafes there, one for the jurors, one for the barristers. And then we also have a restaurant and a cafe in Chelsea, Design Centre as well.
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A
You're super busy operating a lot, assuming that the prison leavers aren't welcome in the Old Bailey, is that right?
- [04:42]
B
Sadly I actually don't think they are.
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A
They shouldn't be. But imagine there are rules.
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B
Exactly. But we're working on that. We're working on that. Which is good.
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A
No, because I remember we employed someone years ago who was a Prison leaver. We wanted him to go back into prisons to talk to the young prisoners about why they maybe should think about changing their ways and. And the rules changed and he wasn't able to do it anymore. He wasn't able to go back in, which seemed a shame because he was extremely persuasive and compelling.
- [05:06]
B
Yeah, it's what you need.
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A
Our data, which is interesting, shows that, as I said, one in five employers would immediately reject candidates with criminal convictions. And then compared to 2013, the willingness to hire people with convictions has dropped sharply, it Sundays so. In 2013, 88% of employers were prepared to hire people with driving offenses. That's dropped to 41%. And in 2013, 62% would hire people with alcohol related offenses. That's dropped to 27%. And criminal damage has dropped from 40% to 10%. So there's a real hardening of attitudes, it seems, from our research, against employing people with criminal records or convictions. But we know that it's important to give people a second chance because it means they're less likely to reoffend. It's better for society. It's better for them. And when you commit an offense, I don't think that should mean that you're unemployed for the rest of your life. I mean, that's. That's for me, not right. You've sort of found your own way to doing this. What made you think, I believe it's 10 years now since you started hiring people. How did that come to your attention? Why did you do it and what have you learned?
- [06:18]
B
Of course. Well, it started really organically. And 10 years ago, I was volunteering through a charity called Key for Life, and I went into ISIS prison and I met Reuben and I was incredibly nervous going in, and I was just going in as his mentor. So.
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A
So where's this prison?
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B
This prison is next to Belmarsh. So it's a yoy. So young offenders institute. It's called isis. And Reuben had been in there, I think, for a GBH offense, and he had just kind of lost his way. And ultimately the charity had. Were working with him behind bars and on release. I was his mentor. So I went in to meet him and that was my first ever prison visit.
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A
So this was something you did as a sort of.
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B
Exactly. Yeah.
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A
Just extracurricular thing.
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B
Yeah, exactly. And we kind of, you know, I was definitely kind of, you know, a bit apprehensive going in, nervous. But on meeting Ruben, actually, that kind of dissipated. We, you know, we chatted, we bonded over giving up smoking and, you know, a few little things that we kind of had in common. And on release, actually we kind of, you know, I then was his mentor, so I'd meet him for a coffee and, you know, help him with a few things.
- [07:12]
A
Is that a scheme that people can sign up to a mentor of someone on release?
- [07:16]
B
Yeah, they can definitely through the charity Key for Life. And I'm sure there's Life. Yeah, exactly. They're brilliant. So that's how I got into it. And then actually at the time, the founder of Key for Life asked me if I'd employ one of the other gentlemen that been released. So at that time I had eight employees and I got them all in a room and I said, hey guys, how do you feel about working alongside a prison leaver? And they were up for it. So Suhail started and he was quite. At first, he wasn't that reliable. And I sat down with him.
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A
When you say wasn't that reliable, what do you mean?
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B
So he was working as a kitchen porter and he just. Yeah, he wouldn't turn up for every shift, which we obviously, you know, couldn't kind of maintain that kind of employment. A, we're a small company and everybody had to pull their weight, but B, I couldn't afford to pay somebody that wasn't there or pay somebody twice. So I kind of said to him, look, this is your opportunity to get on board and make the most of it or don't, you know. Quite straight. Yeah, exactly. And actually he kind of went away and had a think and then he came back five days a week and, and loved it and it kind of all went from there. And he stayed with me for three or four years. So he was a brilliant, you know, he was my first prison leaver to employ and, you know, we learned lots as an employer over that, you know, over that journey. But he was a great success.
- [08:23]
A
It's interesting that you asked the others first.
- [08:25]
B
I think it's. Yeah, I mean, obviously employment, prison leave, it is a USP of social pantries. Having done it now for a decade, we're definitely quite forward thinking with it and we have, you know, we have kind of led the way, which is really exciting. But I think it is important. Everybody starting Sasha Pantry, often they cite it as why they want to join Sasha Pantry in an interview. But, you know, it's common knowledge that you would be working alongside somebody that has spent time in prison for a.
- [08:49]
A
Conviction or when you, when you first did it, you consulted the team.
- [08:52]
B
Yeah, totally. Because it was a small team and Ultimately, I wanted them to feel comfortable with it as well. I was completely comfortable with offering an opportunity for me. If probation and the prison server, if they've done their time and the probation is saying, this person's going to be released, why wouldn't we offer an opportunity? I also think in the industry, we've, you know, we've got very low barriers to entry in the hospitality industry. So, for example, they could come having had no kitchen experience, and they'll start as, you know, maybe within our logistics team or as a kitchen porter, or if they've had some cooking experience, they might then start as one of, you know, one of the chefs. But, you know, we can onboard pretty much anybody within the industry. So for me, I suppose it felt like a really good opportunity. And a lot of them, they're charismatic, they've got transferable skills that, you know, they can work hard, they're driven. So why wouldn't I look at that, you know, look at the opportunities that come with employing people that have got convictions.
- [09:42]
A
Are there certain convictions you will not entertain? I'm just thinking in terms of what other people might.
- [09:47]
B
Yes. Yeah. So for us, yes, we wouldn't have anybody with kind of a sex offense. And that's just something that I'm personally not comfortable with. And that wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't expect anybody else to be comfortable with that. But, you know, other than that, we have kind of said no in the past when it hasn't quite worked for us or when potentially that kind of first interview hasn't gone well. But. But other than that. Yeah.
- [10:06]
A
Recruit and to grow. This is what inspired us to create Reed AI, your new AI hiring agent. It's here to save you money, to save you time, and to help you get the right match. Whether you're hiring your first team member or your 50th, read AI is here to make it easier. Try it free for 28 days exclusively available during our beta period. Go to Read AI and get started. Read AI your higher power. So there's a lot here that you've said that I think might be interesting to someone maybe contemplating doing this or wondering. Wondering whether it's for them or their business. I mean, the first is the relationship with the probation service and the prison. So do you go into the prison to interview people first before they released? And how does that work?
- [10:54]
B
Yeah, so now, having done it for a decade, I'm now in touch with a number of prisons and a number of kind of employment boards and prison that, you know, I've Got enough contacts that they will phone me. And so I've got somebody coming out and I think they'd be great for Social Pantry.
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A
They're thinking about you before.
- [11:06]
B
Yes. And that might be because we've gone in and done an employment session. Session behind bars. Or we've worked with the prison before or I kind of know them. There's relationship there. So. But for somebody looking to do. I would definitely partner with a charity. I think that's what really helped me back in the day. It's kind of. It then means you've kind of got a triangle of support. So you've got your. The charity, the employer and you've potentially got the probation. And if you're lucky enough, then you've maybe got their family as well. So if it's a potentially, you know, a younger person coming out and they're moving back with their family, then actually you've got a lot of touch, you know, you've got some support with it. And the charities often will support you as an employer. So they might kind of bring them on their first day to work, which. Which might be needed. They might meet them at the gate and organize for them to go into work the next day. So there's not too much of a lag period in between. But ultimately you've also got somebody to phone and say, oh, I'm. We've run into a bit of, you know, if there are any problems, you know, how should I approach this or. Or what should I do or help as an intermediate. Yeah, it gives that. It just gives you that. I suppose it gave me a bit of confidence, actually, knowing that I had a brilliant charity there to lean on and ask any questions.
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A
So what charities are particularly prominent in this space, in this work for people to come to?
- [12:09]
B
Key for Life were brilliant for us. We've also got a charity called Switchback, who are very good. So I think. I think they're good. And then I suppose it's also. Yeah, I mean, I suppose it's probably working out what charity is local. I think ultimately for us, when the prison leavers, I suppose to kind of, you know, for us it works well when they're commute and when they live locally. So potentially kind of local charities and local prisons to where the business is based is definitely what I'd encourage people to kind of. To explore.
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A
So keep it as close as possible.
- [12:37]
B
Yeah, I think so. I think any employee, you know, prison leave or not, like a manageable commute, is really important. It also means that their probation service might be Close.
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A
When someone leaves prison, I believe they're giving us some of money. Do you know how much it is?
- [12:49]
B
I actually don't.
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A
You don't? I don't think it's very much.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I do have this issue where someone's left prison. How quickly do they need to be paid? I'm just thinking, yeah, you've got a monthly payroll, of course.
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B
Yeah. There's lots of different things, things you.
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A
Can do to mitigate that.
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B
Yeah. And there's lots of support that you, you potentially do need to put in place. Some prison leavers have somewhere to live, have a family to go back to and can start and they're completely off and actually some need a bit more support. So really, as an employee, you've got to be understanding that they're coming out and that may be facing more challenges than, you know, your general employee. I think housing can be a bit tricky, so kind of, you know, ensuring that they've got housing is really will also play into the success of the employment. The other, the other factor is probation. So ideally you want their probation kind of curfews or meetings and not be in the middle of the day. There's been a number of points where I've had to phone a probation officer and say, actually, can we move this person?
- [13:42]
A
It's lunchtime.
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B
Exactly. Probation meeting to the end of the day. So really, you know, that can be helpful. But also, they might not have a bank account. They might also not know how to kind of travel. You know, that commute might be a little bit challenging. So in the past, one of my team members has kind of done that commute with one of the prison levers to make them feel confident. But yes, there's definitely kind of, you.
- [14:01]
A
Know, if you don't have a phone or a bank account, it's quite hard to commute, isn't it?
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B
Yes, it's really challenging. So.
- [14:06]
A
So yeah, do that these days. It's true. So you, you, you mentioned that, you know, sometimes you'll meet a prisoner or ex prisoner and decide that person's not for you. What do you look for when, I mean, what's your process? Do you interview everybody or do you do give them some other forms of assessment? How do you decide? This one's for us. This one maybe not.
- [14:25]
B
Liam heads up all of our hr. He's our people director and he's fantastic. And before, prior to that with Sylvia, he was great. So we kind of, I suppose for us, yeah, it's about meeting them, it's about whether we have A role that we feel is suitable. It's about whether we have got, you know, kind of good management and good kind of structure within the kitchen or, or, you know, that they're going into.
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A
What is it about them?
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B
So for them, yes, I want them to be determined. I want them to kind of. I want them to want it.
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A
How do you test that?
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B
So really by getting them to start. And that's what the challenge is, James. You have to kind of just offer the opportunity. So for me, I'll often have gone into a prison, met with a couple of the guys behind bars and said, when you leave, come and see me and I'll give you a job. It can be as straightforward as that.
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A
It's like a two week trial or something.
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B
Yes. Yeah. It's always paid. They might do a work taster. There's a three day work T taster that you can do and that's through the Key for Life charity. They'll often send us people on work tasters. So that's. If you've come out of prison, you might do a work taster with us in the hospitality industry and you might do it in a couple of other industries. So it gives you a bit of a taste of what the industry would be. Yeah. And that they're really successful. But ultimately they just. For me, they just have to be determined and able to work hard. When I kind of started, this is, you know, I don't think you need. You don't need any qualifications, really.
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A
Skills. Because, I mean, a lot of hospitality involves dealing with people.
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B
Yeah. They have to be able to kind of listen, they have to be able to conduct themselves in a kitchen and they have to be personable enough to work within a team. It's also. We can upskill them. We, you know, we do. It's great if they've got some experience. They've worked in the prison kitchens or they've worked in the prison cafes. But having experience. Yeah, but that isn't essential. We can also pop them in as a KP and they get kind of. They also get a mentor internally at social pantry, which helps, but. Yeah, I suppose.
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A
So you give each person.
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B
Yeah, we give them a mentor and interestingly, a mentor in a different department so that they've kind of just got a buddy in the business.
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A
Would that be another prison lever or.
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B
That won't be a prison leaver, that'll be somebody else who. And effectively they take them for a coffee every month and just say, how you doing? How are you finding it all? And then you've obviously got the HR support.
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A
Have you got any people who've joined as prison leavers now in sort of leadership roles or senior management?
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B
No, not, not at the moment, no. No. And I think I'm often asked about kind of what's the success of a prison leaver, but really it's case by case for some of them, you know, staying a couple of years is absolutely brilliant and that's a real success. Obviously. That's fantastic. And they, you know, if they go off to another, you know, employer within them, brilliant. They've learned, you know, they love the industry, they've, you know, had an opportunity they wouldn't have had previously. But also for some of them, just kind of, I suppose, you know, coming for a three day work taste is a real success. So it really depends and it can, it can depend on kind of, you know, the challenges that they face in their home life as well. But yeah, success story totally varies.
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A
I mean, every person obviously is different. But what sort of issues have you encountered where, where it's been less than straightforward?
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B
Yeah, I think housing's probably the biggest one. I think that definitely can be a challenge.
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A
How does that affect you, though?
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B
So ultimately, if they haven't got anywhere to live, then it's really hard. The chances of prison leaver or non prison leaver kind of committing to a role and giving their all and being really focused is going to be really challenging. If they're kind of sofa surfing or staying with friends, effectively they haven't got anywhere to live, then that's obviously quite challenging.
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A
So it's really important that, that goes hand in hand.
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B
Yeah. Really, you need housing, probation. Yeah, exactly.
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A
And the support for that is there. For prison?
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B
There is, but it's if, if an employer can kind of, you know, support, then obviously, obviously that's great. In the past we have had to kind of support, but there is, there are services in place. It can just be quite slow. I sit on the board of Wandsworth Prison, on the employment board, which is brilliant. And actually housing is often cited as one of the challenges. So I, I think it's.
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A
Have you had any conduct issues you've had to deal with inside the business?
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B
Inside the business? No, nothing that, nothing that, that's other than kind of, you know, you're late. Yeah.
- [18:08]
A
You should show up for your ship.
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B
Exactly.
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A
So you haven't had any issues with theft or no disputes or fights? Now I'm asking this because I think it's important that we understand as business owners.
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B
Yeah. I think what you have to Place.
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A
What the issues are. And it sounds like it's been.
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B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, ultimately they. They do need the additional support, as I. As I said with kind of that, you know, potentially the admin side of it of helping, you know, a letter for the bank or an employment letter to prove for housing. But really you have to trust them. Like they've come quite a long journey since they've come out of PR and like. Yeah, it's often that I'm asked like, you know, do I trust them? And you have to. For them to kind of go back and land themselves back in prison is.
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A
Have any of them ended up back in.
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B
Yeah, one. One has for a driving offense. But over the years.
- [18:50]
A
Well, they was working for you at the time.
- [18:51]
B
No. So. But.
- [18:52]
A
So that's pretty small number then.
- [18:54]
B
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
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A
We've had a very high success rate stopping reoffending.
- [18:57]
B
I genuinely think, like with some of these. With some of the guys that I've met, the guys and girls I've met, if we hadn't offered them the opportunity, they genuinely wouldn't have had one. So I think we, you know, we really have made a difference and I can say that kind of quite. Passion, it is so important just to offer them the opportunity and then it's there to roll with and run with and be brilliant with or it's theirs to lose. And that's like anybody that you employ, you know, here are the tools. We're going to give you what we can. We're going to, you know, also like any employee, I suppose you have to kind of keep it interesting. So if they start as a kitchen porter, we do try and move them out of their role quite quickly. They will start on London living wage, but it's trying to kind of promote them quite quickly within definitely kind of improves retention. Otherwise they can, you know, they can get a little bit bored and it's a tough industry to be in if you're kind of potwashing.
- [19:42]
A
Well, there's quite high turnover in hospitality and catering.
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B
Exactly. Yeah. Me and my. Yeah, Liam actually were chatting the other day about with one of our prison leavers who actually he started on Rothwell, which is released on temporary license, where he would come from prison every day. So we worked with the prison and that's towards the end of his sentence. He'd be released every day to come and do his job and then go back.
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A
Release on temporary license.
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B
Yes.
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A
That's a good way to test someone out and test them.
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B
Exactly, exactly. So it's really successful in the Ross hall candidates we've had have been brilliant. He's now fully released and actually we've just moved him within our kitchens. He's just moved to another kitchen just to keep it exciting and varied and keep him engaged. So we work kind of hard to give them every fighting chance.
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A
So our report talks about employing people with criminal convictions. Your language is slightly different because you're talking about prison leave. Could you just explain what your thinking is here and how that's different?
- [20:32]
B
Of course, of course. So Wandsworth is a prison that we work with and they are a remand prison. So a lot of. Yes. So, for example, somebody could be on remand at Wandsworth Prison and then be released, but they've actually gone to trial and been found not guilty. So they are leaving prison rather than being an ex offender. So we kind of.
- [20:49]
A
They have many of the same challenges as an ex offender.
- [20:53]
B
Yeah, I mean, yes, ultimately they spent time in prison, so they've lost their job, they've potentially lost housing, they've lost any support, they've had time away from their family. So, yeah, if, you know, spending any length of time in prison definitely presents a challenge.
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A
And you also mentioned that you were on the employment board at. Ones is an employment board in a prison and how do people get involved with that if they're interested?
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B
Yeah, so, yeah, the Employment Board. So sitting on the board is a number of kind of key employees at the prison and then there are some other business owners like myself, or kind of business leaders. So we've kind of got an. I'm obviously representing the hospitality industry and then there's a construction company.
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A
These are all from the local area, aren't they?
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B
Yes, yeah, they are, actually, and they're brilliant. Ultimately, we will try and work out how we can kind of make prisoners aware when they come into their journey at Wandsworth, that there is opportunity, there's kind of training within the prison and on release, there is opportunity and support there. So it might be that there's employment workshops that we would want to get them involved in. We also will support by reaching out to other businesses to see if they've got opportunity to employ or. I mean, they recently had, like, PwC, went in and did an employment day. We might kind of run like a CV writing workshop, but we're there just to kind of support and advise, connect.
- [22:09]
A
What are the skills they can learn. You said there was some training. Training opportunity?
- [22:13]
B
Yes, yeah. So there's interview techniques, which is really important. There's CV training and for. Of. For some of them, they kind of, you know, haven't potentially ever had a job. Job interview or ever. Haven't ever kind of written a cv. But it's also finding out what they're passionate about. I know that there's computing as well and then there's obviously kind of barber radio. There's so.
- [22:32]
A
So these employment boards exist in multiple prisons. I understand. So. So other people in other parts of the country could get involved.
- [22:40]
B
Yes, exactly, yes. And I think. Think I could be wrong, but James Timpson was kind of heading up the Employment Board and it's now in a number of prisons. I need to kind of check this out, but I think he started it. He's now obviously an mp.
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A
He's the prison's minister.
- [22:56]
B
Prison's minister, exactly.
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A
So, yeah, so he should be all over that.
- [23:00]
B
Yeah. So I think now there's a number of employment boards and hopefully it's kind of connecting and supporting, also linking in the charities. Supporting the charities with the prism.
- [23:07]
A
It was interesting. Your journey was sort of meeting someone, someone else being suggested to you. And it's when you meet people that yeah, maybe some of these sort of barriers start to totally.
- [23:18]
B
I honestly would challenge people that were kind of, you know, with your stats. I challenge the people that were saying, no, that one in five employers, I would challenge them to come in and come to prison and meet some of these, you know, some. Some of these, in some cases, incredibly young men and actually not, not. Not want to offer them an opportunity on release. Like, for some of them, it's. Yeah, it's definitely been like a challenging start to life and it's inevit, potentially would end up in prison. So it's quite.
- [23:45]
A
So it's really important to be given a second or even third chance, I think. Yeah, everyone has that right, I believe.
- [23:53]
B
Yeah.
- [23:53]
A
So, yeah, so that's what. And. And, yeah, just come and come and come and see. Is a really good sort of message.
- [23:59]
B
Yeah, definitely.
- [24:00]
A
Because you'll be surprised, I think, is what you're saying.
- [24:02]
B
Completely. And actually you might. And lots of them are charismatic. Like, you know, some of them are, you know, they're brilliant. You know, some of them have got kind of brilliant personalities which work in some roles and, you know, some of them are, you know, incredibly skilled, whether it comes to cooking, you know, other industries. Like, you know, these people have got skills and they're transferable skills that could well. Could well work within. Within businesses on the outside.
- [24:23]
A
So I'm just looking at the report here. Percentage of employers who have had representatives do one of the following. Only 22% have visited a prison.
- [24:34]
B
There you go.
- [24:35]
A
So four out of five really have not visited a prison, been to a prison event or open day. Just 12%.
- [24:42]
B
There we go.
- [24:43]
A
Okay, so this is really suggesting that you're onto something. Work with a probation officer to support resettlement. 19.
- [24:51]
B
Yeah.
- [24:52]
A
So there's a lot more that could be done just by being a little bit more curious.
- [24:56]
B
Yes. Yeah. There's a brilliant charity called Only A Pavement Away who do fantastic work with kind of, obviously the homeless, but also prison leavers. They're. They're an incredible charity, but, you know, they're kind of mantras that we're all. Only one pavement away from actually being on the wrong side of, you know, the wrong side of it. And I think when you. Yeah, we. Yeah, I think when you kind of, you know, realize that actually offering opportunity prevents reoffending and prevents, you know, if they have made, you know, if they have kind of done their time behind bars, you actually want to prevent it being really impactful for the rest of their lives. Like, why wouldn't we offer opportunity just to kind of stop the, Stop the cycle? But I do think it's really challenging for them to find work. And I feel like, yeah, businesses of any size, if we can do it as a small business, you know, with tight margins and limited HR resource, then the bigger business definitely can.
- [25:48]
A
So, so to, to get that right. You're. I'm listening. I'm. I'm hearing you give these people a mentor.
- [25:54]
B
Yes.
- [25:55]
A
You give them a trial.
- [25:56]
B
Yes, exactly.
- [25:57]
A
It's right for you. Right for them. Are there any other key things that people need to think about?
- [26:00]
B
Yes, I think you need to have the understanding that. That. Yes. I mean, I suppose for us, we're, We're. Yeah, we might. For some of them, that they start and they, they, they crack on and that there's no issues. But if somebody potentially hasn't come in for kind of a day or two rather than kind. Where on earth were you? It's like, do you know what? Great. Well done for coming back. Trying to kind of, you know.
- [26:22]
A
Really? That's what you say.
- [26:23]
B
Definitely.
- [26:23]
A
Because not, where the hell have you been?
- [26:25]
B
No, because other management style. Because I've learned. You've got to. Really. Because I've got no understanding of what it's like to, you know, what they're, what they're battling. And a lot of them have got, you know, they come out and they, you know, they've got family pressures. They might have a number of children and actually them adjusting back in. In. They might well have been battling quite a bit actually. And actually kind of them realizing that you're on their side. I'm not probation. I'm not, you know, I'm there to kind of support and help and if they're going to be brilliant and do a good job, then I will support. So I think there's the expectation of. I suppose you have to just, you know, maybe that gentle approach, you know.
- [27:01]
A
It look a bit surprised when you say that. Well done for coming back.
- [27:08]
B
I think it's just being like a caring, considerate employer that you kind of. You're taking the time to be like, you know what, you know, do you, you know, can you tell us exactly why you didn't come in? And often there. It's really valid reasons that are sensible. Yes. Yeah.
- [27:21]
A
And does that improve over time? You find things settle down and they sort of get into a sort of routine.
- [27:27]
B
Yeah, they do, yeah.
- [27:29]
A
Yeah. So. So that sort of understanding is really. That's the third element.
- [27:33]
B
And I feel like if I was an employee I would. And I was coming into you. I would rather being shouted out for a while wasn't that I'd want a chance to say like, actually, you know what, this is a bit more than I thought it would be. Or this, you know, it's just having that slight bit of empathy. So I think that that's important. Yeah. I think shouting at anyone's never a good idea. That's only going to get the worst.
- [27:54]
A
Kitchens are notoriously.
- [27:55]
B
Yeah, I was about to say we.
- [27:56]
A
Have like sharp elbow places.
- [27:58]
B
No, I've worked in some really tough kitchens before I started Social Pantry and we have really like, we call them kind of non shouty kitchens, but they're very calm. We've got absolutely, you know, like there's no kind of egos in there. Like, it's really calm, you know, our events kitchen and they're, you know, turning out 40 events a week. You know, that's pretty serious business. So it's kind of with some. An incredible exec chef who's incredibly experienced and intelligent. A brilliant team. Good communication, you know, and it's organized and it's. And it's a great place to work. And we've got, you know, female, you know, like we have actually without intentionally, we've got, you know, one. One of our main kitchens is female led. So, you know.
- [28:39]
A
But it's a really calm main kitchen.
- [28:41]
B
Oh, we've maybe I've.
- [28:43]
A
Maybe so it's not a female Led thing that makes it non shouting.
- [28:46]
B
No, but it's also, you know, it's. It's. It's great that, you know, it does potentially, you know, it leads to quite a calm environment. But, yeah, we've maybe got six or seven kitchens.
- [28:54]
A
Right.
- [28:55]
B
With different numbers of team members in each.
- [28:58]
A
But, yeah, you've obviously set the tone from the top as the founder. Yeah, I definitely want it to be. I mean, you've said that clearly.
- [29:05]
B
Yeah. And I've worked in some kitchens where I was. So it was horrendous going to work. It was terrifying being 18 and going to work in these. Yeah. Pretty scary environments, just chefing and. Yeah, it was intense and I, you know, it was.
- [29:18]
A
That's how you learn.
- [29:19]
B
You learn how not to do it. Yeah, it was not to do it. Yeah, it was. It was horrible. And actually, so for us, it's making sure that we're really approachable and that people can ask the right questions. And if, you know, the line managers understand. We've also done a fair bit of training with our team on how to manage a prison leaver as well. But often the mentor and their line manager will meet the employee behind bars. If we can. Can. So that's.
- [29:42]
A
If you're super busy and you've got a big. A whole lot of events, you've got to prepare everything.
- [29:46]
B
Yeah.
- [29:46]
A
And then someone doesn't show up. That's annoying, isn't it?
- [29:48]
B
Yes. And we're quite. No nonsense with it, so we can be empathetic.
- [29:51]
A
You say, thanks for coming back, but I mean, how many times do you.
- [29:54]
B
Have to say, oh, so we. What we do is we allocate. It's called a charity place. At Social Pantry, we have our core. Our core rotor. And then, in addition are the charity places. So if you were leaving prison, you would slot into one of my charity places, which means you're in addition to budget. So we. We commit that salary. It's not going to sink. Exactly. I'm not going to be working five hours later that evening because you haven't shown up yet. I learned that by trial and error, that's what I learned.
- [30:18]
A
So that's important to stress. So you create a bit of extra capacity.
- [30:21]
B
Exactly. Because ultimately the team can't be, you know, it can't be the team.
- [30:24]
A
Doesn't that add to your cost?
- [30:26]
B
Yes, it does. Yeah. And that's why it's. That's why it's great to get, you know.
- [30:29]
A
But you're doing this early. The world.
- [30:32]
B
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yes. We create three Charity places. Places. And. And then I suppose it. Yeah. Sometimes they'll slot into a rotor roll within three months or maybe six months, but once they've shown that they're reliable.
- [30:43]
A
And so what. So the charity places for a defined period of time.
- [30:46]
B
Yeah, it's just a defined budget, ultimately, that we kind of. Yeah. Will allow. Because we don't want the team to be affected by. By anyone that potentially looks like they're going to be brilliant and then isn't.
- [30:55]
A
Well, that. That sort of takes the tension out of it, doesn't it?
- [30:58]
B
Yeah, in a way. Exactly.
- [31:00]
A
Because the others can be supportive rather than.
- [31:03]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [31:03]
A
Rather than having to carry the burden.
- [31:05]
B
Yeah. And then sensible mentors as well, internally as well.
- [31:09]
A
Yeah, that's really. That's really helpful because there's a number of things there that I think, if applied together, make it much more likely that this will be a successful experience.
- [31:19]
B
And I think, don't be scared of it. Like, ultimately meet the person, you know, under, you know, understand, you know, I suppose the challenges with it speak to other employers, like. Like, you know, like us at social pantry. Link into a charity and they'll most likely be linked to a charity anyway, that when they're coming, understand their probation or if they're on tag and. And then, you know, if they're on tag. Yes. One time I was. We had a staff party. One of the boys was like, I have to go. And I said, is it because you're on tag? And he said, no, it's because his party's really dull. And I thought. I knew I had to allocate more budget, so I was like, oh, okay.
- [31:56]
A
Straightforward.
- [31:58]
B
Yeah.
- [31:58]
A
Allocate more budget to the party.
- [32:00]
B
Yeah. So you can tell.
- [32:02]
A
So this. When you say you're on tag, you mean he's tagged with.
- [32:04]
B
Yeah. They've got a curfew or a. Yes. Home on a certain area. Yeah, exactly. In home. So, yeah. And I think just enjoy and enjoy the diversity within your team and, you know, you'll know, I suppose, like most employers, you'll know employment, you'll know if it's going to work out quite quickly.
- [32:21]
A
So you've been doing this for 10 years. Would you say it's improved your business?
- [32:24]
B
Definitely, I think. Initially.
- [32:26]
A
How's it helped?
- [32:27]
B
Well, initially, I wouldn't mention it to anybody because we were just trying to win business and, you know, in a competitive market. Market, we were just trying to create. I was just trying to create a brilliant hospitality company and now actually, I'm really proud that it's One of our usps and it contributed to our B Corp. It's definitely a B Corp. We're B Corp. It's definitely something that we put front and center when we do tenders. So fantastic that our tenders, you know, if the Old Bailey or Mansion House, you know, they're government run tenders that we would have absolutely put that usp, you know, you know, up there with, with the other important selling points. And it's great that people are kind of open, you know, they see it as a value for sure.
- [33:01]
A
It's helped you win business.
- [33:02]
B
It has, yeah.
- [33:02]
A
You grow your business.
- [33:04]
B
Yeah, definitely. It's not been the only reason, but it, but it, but it has helped and actually that's just turned out. Yeah, I didn't embark on that mission because of that. I just did it.
- [33:13]
A
No, I'm not suggesting you do.
- [33:15]
B
No, no. But as in it's quite a nice roi, basically.
- [33:17]
A
It's worth people understanding.
- [33:19]
B
Yeah.
- [33:20]
A
It's been net positive.
- [33:22]
B
Yeah, definitely. It's definitely been positive.
- [33:23]
A
It's not just been a bit of a sort of ESG on the side.
- [33:26]
B
No, no. And the, and, and most of the team who that if you join Social French you'll go and visit a prison within a year of being with us and they find that everyone who works with you. Yeah, they find that really opening. So. And then they enjoy being a mentor.
- [33:39]
A
What do they say about that?
- [33:41]
B
I am. So the last time I took some of our event planners. So these girls obviously kind of plan incredibly high end events and brilliant events.
- [33:49]
A
Lots of weddings and parties.
- [33:50]
B
Yeah, exactly. And in some incredible London venues. And then for them to be kind of. I took them to Felton Prison. We used to, we were young offenders. Yeah. So we ran a cafe there for a year. So one of my. We put in, we paid the salary of a team member behind bars that worked for Social Pantry and we opened up their staff hub so they would work with the inmates and. Yeah, so yeah, it was brilliant. Brilliant kind of initiative. And it's still running now, so. Yeah. So they came to see Felsom, I think they were. Yeah. I suppose like anybody, kind of quite shocked at how young they are.
- [34:22]
A
So how young are they, the people?
- [34:23]
B
So Feltham, they've got side A and side B and site A, A, if I'm correct, are really quite young boys that are all in for very long sentences. So they all just go straight onto adult prison. So they might be 15 or 16 and in for, you know, 30 years. 30. Looking at 30. So that's really Incredibly sad. But side B is where we had the, the staff hub and the lock. The Loch Mess as they. As the prisoners named it and they. The Lock mess. Yeah. Yeah.
- [34:51]
A
So these are people who are going to be released.
- [34:52]
B
They're going to be released. Exactly. And the idea was on release that they would. Would come and work at social pantry and. Yeah, we had, we had one gentleman that did that which was great. But the girls, I think they. Yeah. I mean they having not seen a prison before, you know, I suppose it's always quite eye opening but meeting, meeting the guys, you know, I suppose they come out having. Yeah, I suppose probably wanting to help is the biggest, you know, the biggest thing. These boys are quite engaging. You know, they want to kind of change their lives. They're determined. You know, it's incredibly sad seeing some of them in there. I mean not condoning. Not saying they shouldn't be or condoning their crime at all. I think understanding that the challenges that the boys have behind bars potentially makes you. Yeah. Understand, you know, your employee better on release.
- [35:36]
A
Yeah. And you know, once the sentence has been served.
- [35:39]
B
Exactly, exactly. They're going to be released.
- [35:42]
A
They'll haven't. Yeah, quite. They're going to be in society so it's better I think that they're doing something.
- [35:46]
B
Yeah. We can definitely keep busy. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
- [35:51]
A
So I'm just going to have a look at some more of the sort of detail sales of this report which I think is concerning because I mean it seems like for every category people have become less tolerant of.
- [36:07]
B
Yeah. I wonder.
- [36:07]
A
Of giving people an opportunity and I don't know why. Why do you think that is? I mean, why is it over since 2013 to now that companies have become more averse to.
- [36:18]
B
Yeah.
- [36:18]
A
Giving people a second chance. Thanks.
- [36:21]
B
I mean I can only kind of talk from our experience and definitely for us as an industry like it's, it's quite challenging. So something like, you know, where it's become more expensive to employ people that then limits our kind of charity places that we can open up and the amount of people we can employ.
- [36:35]
A
So when more expensive now to hire people.
- [36:37]
B
Exactly. Yeah. So people aren't really, you know, with the, you know, recent budget it is incredibly difficult. So.
- [36:43]
A
No, I know, I think that. So you're talking about here. Let's be very specific. The important employers national insurance which then was made on lower paid people.
- [36:51]
B
Yeah.
- [36:52]
A
Especially has made it harder.
- [36:53]
B
Yeah, definitely. And, and costs have gone up across the board. It's not just our, the cost of our team it's the cost of all of our, you know, our brilliant suppliers have, at their cost up. So if the landlord, you know, there's. There's costs across the business that have then increased as a result of it. And that does that, you know, that. That does happen.
- [37:06]
A
So one thing you would say is because business is under more pressure.
- [37:09]
B
Yeah.
- [37:10]
A
There's less room for these charity places.
- [37:13]
B
Yeah, I would say, from my experience, that's exactly why.
- [37:16]
A
Or maybe taking a risk where you. You wouldn't.
- [37:18]
B
Yeah. Or haven't kind of, you know, haven't got capacity to potentially kind of put the right systems in place or the right budget or the right people to kind of, you know, support it. And actually, maybe. Yeah, maybe there just isn't that.
- [37:28]
A
Another thing we noticed is there's a lot more employees using the DBS checks or disclosure and borrowing service checks, which is a way of.
- [37:37]
B
Yes.
- [37:37]
A
You know, asking about somebody if you're about to hire them. And it seems like the number of jobs that require those checks has grown in number.
- [37:47]
B
Yeah.
- [37:48]
A
Is that something you. You're aware of or.
- [37:50]
B
No, not.
- [37:51]
A
I suppose you don't do those checks, do you?
- [37:53]
B
Yes.
- [37:54]
A
You're not worried about that? Yeah, yeah. It says that DBS checks have become, you know, they should not be used as a pass fail mechanism. So I suppose people are doing these checks, comes up, someone's got a record of some form and they fail.
- [38:10]
B
Yes.
- [38:11]
A
Where it shouldn't be. It's saying they should provide opportunity for improvement, employers to appropriately assess and manage any risk. So that's saying it might be the report suggesting in our reflections that that should be the beginning of a conversation, not. Yes, you're off the list.
- [38:27]
B
Yeah.
- [38:27]
A
So, I mean, I suppose it's important to know what the offense was, as you say. And.
- [38:31]
B
Yeah, for us, we do. Yeah, we do do checks. Yeah. We. We also don't disclose. Yes. If us. Sometimes it's very clear when they're a prison leaver, when they start, but sometimes it's not.
- [38:41]
A
So you don't tell the team?
- [38:42]
B
No, we don't tell the person. It'd be down to you whether to tell the team if you wanted to.
- [38:48]
A
As the prisoner.
- [38:49]
B
Yeah. As a prison lever. And. And because really it's a fresh start for them. But also the crime. We wouldn't disclose as like a nuclear team at social pantry that know what the crime was.
- [38:58]
A
Sort of HR group.
- [38:59]
B
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And you know, to check that. Yeah, I think for our insurance. When I employ people with arson. That's another one. Yeah. So, so yeah, so that's a crime that we would, we would say no to. But yeah, but we kind of, I suppose, keep it confidential because ultimately prison leads.
- [39:15]
A
Do you feel, do you find that the prison leavers do share it or.
- [39:18]
B
Do you think it totally depends on the characters?
- [39:20]
A
Some do and someday.
- [39:21]
B
Yeah, some. Some, yeah, some are completely fine with it and actually some you just want to crack on and put it all behind them and don't really want to want other people to know or to be asked any questions.
- [39:32]
A
Years ago, a colleague of mine who I was extremely fond with, he told me that he'd been in prison for football organism.
- [39:39]
B
Oh, how did, how did you feel been in.
- [39:44]
A
Well, he'd been in the Birmingham Zulus or something and, and, and I was sort of amazed.
- [39:49]
B
Yeah.
- [39:50]
A
But no, I mean it didn't make me think any ill of him because it done an extremely good job for us. And this was in his youth. He made a mistake.
- [39:59]
B
Yeah. So they, so that's somebody that's really.
- [40:01]
A
At this point when he told me this, you know, he was a middle aged man.
- [40:04]
B
Yeah.
- [40:05]
A
And yeah. So I just thought it was interesting and.
- [40:09]
B
Yeah.
- [40:09]
A
So whoever had hired him in our business, he said, knew this.
- [40:13]
B
Yes.
- [40:13]
A
I didn't know it as the managing director, whatever I was at the time, I didn't know. But he, yeah, people who had him knew this. He'd had the conversation and they'd said, okay, just come in and get on with it. And it worked really well. And he, he was in our sales function and won us masses of business.
- [40:29]
B
Yeah.
- [40:30]
A
Because as you said, some of these people are very charismatic.
- [40:33]
B
Yeah, completely. So.
- [40:35]
A
So he was one of those.
- [40:36]
B
Some of them have been very good salesmen in their, you know, drug careers.
- [40:39]
A
You know, they're not lots of crimes that involve selling. Yeah, I suppose that's true.
- [40:44]
B
Exactly.
- [40:45]
A
You know, they're definitely transferable skills is what you're talking about here.
- [40:49]
B
Yes. I went into the kitchen recently and one of them, one of our team members was kind of weighing out these arancini and I was like, oh, how are you getting on with that? And he's like, I can use scales, don't you worry. You knew that about me. I was like, of course, gosh, sorry, I forgot that you in for some quite impressive drug dealers feeling.
- [41:04]
A
Yeah, well, I remember talking to someone, so.
- [41:07]
B
Yes, but obviously not to highlight that, but that does make you like, you just think.
- [41:11]
A
Yeah, yeah, you're right.
- [41:12]
B
That was me thinking of, you know.
- [41:14]
A
I remember talking to someone who just reminded me who we'd found a job working on railways in maintenance crew at night. And he'd been an armed robber and serious, you know, robber. And so I said, I'd said to him, how are you finding working nights? And he said, well, I've always worked nights.
- [41:33]
B
Just on the right side of the tracks.
- [41:36]
A
Right. And he went on to be. Really became the manager of this team. So yeah, I think to make your point.
- [41:42]
B
Yeah, such good examples that actually if you give somebody that second chance then they can just roll with it and they can have a successful career.
- [41:50]
A
Well, that's so positive. So where next for your business? What do you.
- [41:55]
B
Oh gosh, where next? So we, we on a nice little growth trajectory at the moment, which is. Yeah, exactly. So we, yeah, most recently won the Old Bailey and Mansion House contract. So yeah, we're going to, to put our hat in the ring for the.
- [42:08]
A
Mansion House is for the Lord Mayor of London.
- [42:11]
B
Yes, he lives there. Yeah. So we.
- [42:13]
A
So what do you do for them? Events, I suppose.
- [42:16]
B
Exactly. Yes, we won a five year contract. We.
- [42:19]
A
Congratulations.
- [42:20]
B
Thank you.
- [42:20]
A
And didn't you just win an award? Can't you tell us a little bit about this? So what was your award? Go on, please share. Alex, who did you meet just recently?
- [42:29]
B
We did, we won a, we won a King's Enterprise Award.
- [42:32]
A
King's Enterprise Award, yes.
- [42:33]
B
And we won it for offering opportunity. Yeah. So which fell within their sustainability category. And actually we were only one of two businesses in London that won.
- [42:44]
A
One of only two.
- [42:45]
B
Yeah. So there was.
- [42:46]
A
So there's a lot of opportunity for other businesses to win the King.
- [42:49]
B
But it's a, it's a UK based award and there was. The categories were Sustainability, Innovation and International Trade and we obviously sit in the sustainability category. Um, and I think there's 100 winners from each category but obviously only two in London, which is great. So it was really nice to be recognized.
- [43:05]
A
So you met the King?
- [43:06]
B
I did meet the King. Exactly. I. Yes, yeah. Coming. Yeah. Not that recently had a baby and you had to go on your own. So yes, off I went to Windsor Castle.
- [43:17]
A
Windsor Castle?
- [43:18]
B
Yeah. Have you ever been there?
- [43:20]
A
Yeah, a long time ago. Yeah.
- [43:21]
B
Yeah, it's amazing. It's wonderful. So it was brilliant. It was really good. And yeah, had a nice chat with the King and there was a few other roles. There's Princess Anne and, and Edward was there and it was great crew. Yeah, exactly, there's a whole crew. It was fantastic. So yeah, we chatted about. Yeah, about it. It was great.
- [43:39]
A
So the King's Enterprise Award Is every year. Is it just. I mean other companies went to.
- [43:45]
B
Yeah, I mean do. It's. I, you know, I think it's, it's great awardness. You know we're privileged that alongside some other brilliant businesses that got awarded. Yes. So I think we retain it for five years. I think could be wrong.
- [43:57]
A
Did you get a sign?
- [43:59]
B
We got a plaque and then that got presented to us yesterday at HQ which was great. So we had a little, you know, celebration of it in Battersea where we've got kind of our catering units and warehouses. But it was great. It was really nice to be recognized for actually because. Yeah, we haven't deservedly so.
- [44:18]
A
Yeah, I think what you're doing is really positive. Could I ask the people who join. I mean one of the things in our survey is that people with previous convictions often when they get a job show more commitment, more resilience and are often more trustworthy, which might surprise people than the sort of average person. Is that something you have found or.
- [44:42]
B
Yeah, I mean ultimately when they join social we have to give them the level of trust and I think, yeah, I mean we haven't kind of had any, had any real issues with our prison leavers or with our team members but I think maybe giving them that trust rather than them kind having to earn it as such, I think definitely kind of worked for us. So there's various, you know, various things that they're exposed to. But I think, yeah, James Simpson actually did a brilliant video where he, he is on YouTube and he talked about all of his prison leave is obviously it's the key cutting business and they have prison leavers operate the cash and they, they show them exactly how you could. Or how they, how they know I think is what he said, how they know how they. If they were to take money out or they show them how they could do it. So they're like, you know, if you were to do it, this is how you do it. And actually by giving them the trust or showing actually it's that slight reverse. Why would they lose the opportunity they're being given for something so minimal or so small? And also they, you know, sometimes they've come on such a long journey that to go back a number of, a number of stages would really. Would, would. Would, you know, would really cause issues or you know, either put them back, back behind bars.
- [45:45]
A
So that's underlying the point that they often are more trustworthy.
- [45:48]
B
Yes, I, I mean, yeah, I think so. I'd have to kind of ask. Ask the team. I know that when we surveyed our team, they really enjoyed working alongside prison leave. And I, you know.
- [45:57]
A
And you haven't seen anything to suggest they're less trustworthy?
- [45:59]
B
Exactly, yeah. Sort of, yeah.
- [46:01]
A
Baseline.
- [46:02]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [46:04]
A
Okay. One of the one, one of the things I've often thought is prison leavers might be, what well considered to be self employed because you're not then having to get it, you know, someone saying, yeah, you're okay. I mean, you can just set yourself up as a.
- [46:21]
B
Yes.
- [46:21]
A
Business.
- [46:23]
B
Yeah.
- [46:23]
A
What do you think about that?
- [46:24]
B
So for us, they start on payroll. We had a lovely, a lovely guy who actually, when he first got paid, thought he'd been robbed. And I had to say, no, this is tax. And I said, that's tax and that's what keeps some people behind bars, like. And he was just like, okay, I get it. So like, well, that's one view, you.
- [46:39]
A
Know, I mean, it's not voluntary.
- [46:43]
B
So he kind of, you know, that for him, he was kind of like, right, okay. I, you know, I wasn't thinking of.
- [46:49]
A
The difference between payroll and being sort of a contractor. Just thinking starting your own business, you know, sort of starting a catering company like you did, or why not starting a carpet cleaning business or window cleaning business, all sorts of things. Yeah, that's quite a. Gives people other more options.
- [47:04]
B
Totally, totally. And I feel like, I feel like so many of them are ambitious. It's just brilliant. And I, you know, sometimes, you know, people have started with us and then gone on to do their own thing and, and it is brilliant. Ideally they've kind of got the right experience and you know, can, can do it successfully. Otherwise it's probably quite challenging, but yeah, very good.
- [47:22]
A
So what message? Just to sort of pull things together here. Alex, what message do you want to give our listeners or entrepreneurs, business owners or maybe HR managers.
- [47:32]
B
Yes.
- [47:33]
A
To consider here.
- [47:34]
B
Yeah. So I think it's, it's really important that. Yes. That you at least explore it and at least think about it not only to kind of reduce reoffending rates in society, but often, you know, also to offer an opportunity. To offer often quite driven and charismatic and hard working people that need the opportunity. It also diversifies your workforce in a brilliant way. And then fine, if you want to do it to tick the ESG box, then you can also do it for that as well. But I think if you went on the journey, you would genuinely enjoy it and it would give you a totally different perspective, which is often very beneficial. But Social Pantry are going to launch actually later this year, which is very exciting. A networking kind of group where we ideally will pull together charities and HR teams and, and our experience as well. So for any businesses. Yeah, that kind of want to understand a bit more, then come along to one of our, to one of our sessions and we will kind of introduce you to charities and, and network and other businesses that are doing it and other businesses that are doing it brilliantly. Because I think if we're all in it together and all trying, then we genuinely can, you know, we can, we can have more impact, enjoy the journey together and, and, you know, make a.
- [48:44]
A
Difference as you have been today. So that's really good. How do people find you then, if.
- [48:50]
B
They want to join this group, socialpantry.uk or, or, you know, drop us an email to inquiriesocialpantry.co.uk and then we'll pick that up. And our brilliant Liam, who heads up our kind of, you know, people's team will be in touch and send more details. But yeah, it is more accessible than people think and it's definitely worth it.
- [49:08]
A
And it sounds like there are lots of other organizations out there you can reach out to, whether it's charities or probation service.
- [49:14]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [49:14]
A
It will get you started in some way.
- [49:16]
B
Yeah, totally. And what's the harm in trying to Completely agree.
- [49:19]
A
What's the harm in trying. Let's leave it there. So I'm going to ask you two questions which I ask everyone at the end of my podcast, Alex. The first one is what gets you up on a Monday morning?
- [49:30]
B
Oh, gosh. So, oh, just. Yeah, deliver incredible food, make memorable events and to do it whilst making a difference.
- [49:40]
A
That sounds great. Spot on. And my last question is, where do you see yourself in five years time?
- [49:48]
B
Oh, hopefully having employed and helped many more prison leavers. Hopefully we kind of, you know, still pioneering with it, you know, just as involved in prisons and hopefully with a bigger business and more of a, you know, bigger brand and bigger influence to do it with. I hope, hopefully still in business.
- [50:06]
A
Well, yeah, I hope so too. And I wish you every success and continued success with that. I think that's a great ambition. Thank you so much for coming in to talk to me. I've really learned a lot in this conversation about how to approach what I think is a really important issue and giving people a second chance, I think is an obligation, actually. So congratulations on your award, which I feel is richly deserved. Thanks a lot. Good to see you. Thank you. Thank you, Alex, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reed A family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reed, Alex and Social Pantry, or if you'd like to see our report, all links are in the show notes. See you next time.