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James Reed: all about business
46: The power of PR: Controlling your brand reputation and the steps to handling a media crisis | Sarah Woodhouse
00:58:22
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. How can businesses build lasting trust in a world of shifting media patterns and instant scrutiny? What role does strategic communication play in shaping reputation, especially during moments of growth or crisis? Joining me today on All About Business is Sarah Woodhouse, co owner and director at Ambitious, a communications agency supporting high growth businesses across sectors like finance, healthcare and technology. With over 25 years of experience in public relations, Sarah shares practical lessons on how to communicate with purpose, prepare for the unexpected, and tailor your message to connect with the audiences that that matter most. Well, today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to welcome Sarah Woodhouse, who is the co owner and director of a strategic communications agency called Ambitious. And Sarah's come from Bristol today to talk to me, which I'm very grateful to her for. And she's been involved with this agency for, well, since 2012 and has worked also prior to that communications in Hong Kong. So you've got 25 years of communications experience, I believe, Sarah. So I'd like to begin by just saying thank you for coming and asking you. What is ambitious? What do you do?
- [01:36]
B
What do I do? That's a really good question. So Ambitious is a strategic communications agency. We lean very much into sort of public relations and content and social media. And our objective is around helping companies achieve their goals, whatever they might be. So clients come to us because they want to repair a reputation, build a reputation, create perception, change, or support their sort of sales and marketing process.
- [02:02]
A
So there's masses in there, Sarah, I want to sort of delve into further, but let's start with those words, strategic communications. What makes some communications more strategic than others? I suppose. And what's the difference between communications and marketing?
- [02:17]
B
Okay, great. That's a really great question. So if we talk about, I guess, marketing first. Marketing is normally what you do to reach your end consumer. So it will be about how you support the sort of sales process, how you reach that consumer to elicit an action which is normally a sale. But certainly when it comes to communications and public relations, that's a much broader job to be done. So public relations is often involving different audiences. So you embark on communications because you want to reach a regulator, a policymaker, an investor, an employee, a potential employee, lots of different audiences around your business. And today, you know, trust is so important and in order to sort of do business, you need to make sure that all those audiences are taken care of and that you are communicating with all of them.
- [03:09]
A
So what you're Saying I think listening to you is that it goes well beyond your customers or potential customers here. There are all sorts of other stakeholders or people who could have an influence on your future success.
- [03:20]
B
That's absolutely right. I mean, it definitely involves customers as well. And you can have PR and communications campaigns that just focus on your customer, but often PR is used to help reach those audiences, to help build relationships with lots of different stakeholders that are involved in a company's success.
- [03:38]
A
So I remember being told years ago, you know, PR is good because if you can get in the paper through pr, you don't have to pay for an ad. It sounds like it's moved on a bit, but that's the, still the essence of it. Is it?
- [03:48]
B
Yeah, it's definitely in the toolbox.
- [03:51]
A
You've got so many more channels now though.
- [03:53]
B
That's right. So we live in a, a world where we're bombarded by different channels vying for our attention. And so public relations has definitely moved beyond just about being about securing media coverage. Securing media coverage is definitely still very much important part of the toolbox of what PR people have up their sleeve. But it's also about that multi channel world we live in. So it may be about building a presence on YouTube, having influence on TikTok, creating a really big following on LinkedIn could be about then the networks that you work through, the partnerships that you build. It's much more around looking at the whole ecosystem of different touch points that your business can come across and then how you build your influence in those.
- [04:39]
A
So for a lot of entrepreneurs starting out building a business, they're not going to have a big budget necessarily. They've got to think about how to build a brand, you know, how to get awareness up and maybe do some communications. Where would you suggest someone in that situation might start?
- [04:57]
B
I'd start small. I wouldn't try to tackle everything at once. I would really think about where your core audience is and what you're trying to achieve. So if you're a startup and you're, you know, biggest objective is around securing investment, you think about the channels that are going to reach those investors to start with. So that might naturally lead you somewhere like LinkedIn and about building your following on LinkedIn, looking at what you're, you know, communicating what you're doing, how it differs from your competitors, how it's going to change the world and focus on that channel. But actually if your objective is around securing, I guess, permission to do something. So if you're in financial services, you may need to reach A regulator or you may need to covet opinion, sort of policy level with government. Then, you know, you, you find ways to get into those circles. So don't try to do everything, don't try to communicate with everyone, really pick on those channels that are going to move your business forward. And then you can always layer on and build in other communication plans as you go.
- [05:58]
A
So really prioritize. But you can do that with quite a modest budget then.
- [06:02]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And I guess it's, it's also about the team and the size of team that you've got. So when you first start out, you may have no one in a communications or marketing role, might be you as a sole founder, or it might be you and a few, I guess, bright sparks that you've employed to help you along the way. So you need to pick something and then put all your attention, your focus on that rather than trying to build following or build influence across all channels to start with. You can always come back to that later and you can always pick that up as your priorities change, which they do as you build a business.
- [06:36]
A
I was thinking when you were saying that how are you going to go on LinkedIn and get someone to invest in your business? And then I suddenly realized I actually did invest in someone's business because of LinkedIn. And this chap, he emailed or messaged me on LinkedIn, made some comment about a post I'd made and my red socks or something, which, and he made me laugh and he said you might be interested in an idea and it worked in a related sector. And we did invest in his business and it did really well. And so that does work. But what I was thinking when you were saying that is you need to be proactive as well. He, he came out towards us and said, you know, this might be of interest to you.
- [07:11]
B
Yeah.
- [07:11]
A
As well as just posting stuff.
- [07:12]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So when we talk about strategic communications and you asked what makes communication strategic, it is about being intentional with what you're doing and how you're building your communications on, say, LinkedIn as a platform. So it's not just about posting you think about in that given moment, it's about laying down a plan, thinking about your audience and all the aspects that they may be interested in. So for instance, if you were a founder going into a building a new category, you may want to look at, you know, why you're doing that, what that's all about, how it's going to grow, the trends that are coming out and not trying to get all of that into one post, you know, really thinking about what you post over time, but then also how you engage with your community, how you build your following, how you ask, ask people within your network to connect you to others, how you look at groups that sit with on LinkedIn and your influence within those and really look at it in the round and invest time in that.
- [08:12]
A
So that is an investment in time and effort, as you say. You have to be intentional. What are the sort of biggest reputation mistakes that you see entrepreneurs making early on? What, what sort of warnings would you share with us?
- [08:25]
B
I think when you're an entrepreneur and you're scaling a business, things can happen quite quickly, can't they? Often you're putting in a lot of effort and it's going slow for a while, then all of a sudden momentum kicks in and sales pick up and all of. And you're in a different stratosphere. But often then the size of the team around you doesn't keep track with that progress. And so whereas you may have had, say one person looking after everything to do with marketing communication, suddenly you need a diverse range of skill sets. But where you've got lots of investment priorities to make in a new business, perhaps you haven't kept track of what you need in that team and you're not putting the right resource in place. So as businesses scale, you know, making sure that you are keeping track of the budget that you're spending on marketing to reflect where you are now as opposed to where you were is really important because you've got to just keep investing in order to see that return on investment.
- [09:20]
A
Why you might be encouraging people like me to keep investing, which is fair enough. But I'm thinking about the mistakes. I mean, I suppose not investing is one mistake, you're saying, but there are others, surely that. I mean, it feels like there are lots of bear traps out there.
- [09:34]
B
Yeah.
- [09:35]
A
In the world of communications, to me, things that can go wrong. I just wanted you to maybe surface one or two for us to think about and be aware of.
- [09:43]
B
No, absolutely. So I guess a lot of founders have their own personal brands and part of the joy, I guess when you're building a business is being able to share your own personal stories, being able to use your own personal brand as a real leverage to building your business. But as you scale and as you draw more attention to yourself, your own views can then either be helpful to your business or counterproductive to that growth and success.
- [10:12]
A
And so what you mean your own views beyond business?
- [10:16]
B
Yeah, exactly. Your political views, your views on all aspects of society, your views on football even, or anything else you know, they can be seen as being controversial. So there's always that really fine line to tread between being, being a high profile person, using your own personality and your beliefs to build your business, and embracing sort of the values that you stand for, but at the same time not walking into bear traps that could be counterproductive to the success that you're building.
- [10:50]
A
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- [11:42]
B
Really, it's not a long term strategy. And I guess the risk there is what you say in the early days where you may have a very core following, people that really buy into what you're doing, you know, that can come back to haunt you later. So if you're controversial in your early days because you see that that's a way to get attention, that's a way to score points, maybe with people that are really championing what you stand for later, as you become more mainstream, as you open up to more customer bases and attract more people, then that can come back to get you. Because nothing ever goes away, does it?
- [12:15]
A
But it could be a Marmite strategy, could be a good strategy, couldn't it? I mean, it might be that you've got a big enough audience that likes what you're doing, you don't really care about the others.
- [12:23]
B
It could be, and it depends very much on the sector that you're in as to whether that works or not.
- [12:28]
A
So which sectors might that be sort of okay in?
- [12:31]
B
So I think, I guess, I guess in youth culture. Youth culture, yeah, where you're really focused.
- [12:36]
A
On, you're a mod or a rocker in the old days, but what is it now? I controversially switch from One to the other, which is shocking stocking. It's like changing your football club, which is also a minefield.
- [12:46]
B
And then of course, I guess, you know, food and drink as well. We've seen lots of controversy, haven't we, in those sort of sectors, especially within the beer industry. Right. There's lots of quite high profile people that have had lots to say on subject matters that haven't necessarily landed in the beer industry. Yeah. So but then if you're in financial services or you're in the legal industry, then you've, you've probably got to tread a different path, haven't you? Because you.
- [13:10]
A
I don't know, I'm not in those industries. But that would be your advice to me if I was.
- [13:15]
B
Yeah. I think you obviously if you are a new entrant into a market, you want to shake that market up. You want to. Well, you need to get a few things differently. Absolutely. But you've got to make sure that you stick to your values. You've got to make sure that what you're saying is helpful to your business isn't going to come back to get you later.
- [13:32]
A
So that's interesting. You say stick to your values so you would advise your clients to start there, really, would you?
- [13:37]
B
Yeah, definitely. I think really articulating what you stand for as a person and where those are reflected in your business and then using your business to show examples of that is really powerful. And then that also provides a bit of guidance in terms of what conversations you get involved in, what causes you support, what you champion outside of your business. You know, if you, if you've got a really clear idea on what those values are, that can really help to ensure that you build a bit of a framework for yourself. Without making that sound too jargony, but if you've got an idea of what you stand for as a person, then that will help you to shape up conversations that you are prepared to get involved in and others that you probably should just stay away from or stay in your lane about.
- [14:20]
A
It's a good, a good challenge to anybody. I'm just thinking, what do I stand for? Yeah, it's a good, good question to ask oneself. And you would say that's a good starting point.
- [14:30]
B
That's a really good starting point. And I think especially for founder led businesses, when you're building a business, a lot of yourself will be in that business, a lot of you will have probably recognized a problem in an industry and your business will be about solving that issue. So it will be impossible to at the Beginning to really sort of delineate yourself from the business because you are the business. And then as it builds, other people sort of input to that, don't they, and they help to shape it as well. But really those core values, especially if you're looking for a legacy, if you're looking to then you know, pass that business on to your, to your family, to others that may have started the business with you, you know, coming, always coming back to those core values can really provide a good solid framework from which to think about, you know, your, your behavior as a business.
- [15:19]
A
So you, you talked about founder led businesses. I suppose all businesses in the early days are founder led, aren't they? They will start with somebody doing something. Is it your view that the founder really needs to take a lead then in these strategic communications that needs to be their voice to begin with?
- [15:34]
B
I think in recent years that has started definitely become a huge expectation of businesses.
- [15:39]
A
In recent years.
- [15:40]
B
In recent years.
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A
Why is that? What's going on?
- [15:42]
B
That's about trust and the world that we live in. Companies can no longer be sort of faceless entities. People want to know who's behind the business. We have so many channels available to us to find out information and those are constantly fed either by ourselves, if we've embarking on sort of proactive communications or by others, if we're just reacting to what people say about us in the market. So if you, if you have the opportunity to sort of shape your communications by using your own profile, if you're a bigger company, using the profile of those executives that work for you, you know, that that can really help you to stand out in the market and can help tell your story and people love stories as well and those are so powerful and people have stories and if you are just a brand that's sort of communicating without that, that type of kind of personal touch that you know, that that's, that's difficult to sometimes get the cut through, you've then got to create the stories.
- [16:38]
A
The companies are no longer faceless organizations. So every company needs a face or two. Is that what you're saying?
- [16:45]
B
For every company? Because I guess there's lots of examples out there of huge companies, utilities, I'm thinking utilities.
- [16:51]
A
Or they get a bad, they get a bad rap, don't they?
- [16:55]
B
Yeah, they do get a bad rap. But big brands where, you know, perhaps the turnover of CEOs is every few years, that's difficult to then build that personal brand aspect. And there's always the risk that, that.
- [17:05]
A
Yeah, the tenure of the CEO not as long as the life of the business.
- [17:09]
B
In those situations, I think especially when you consider the role of employee engagement and employee communications within brand building, then the expectation is that your leadership is not invisible. People want to know who leads the business. They want to know who they work for, they want to know what they stand for. So even if you're not projecting that externally into the world, that's really important for your, for your staff and for your team.
- [17:37]
A
So when you're describing that other some business leaders that are popping up in your mind, do you think are good examples of that you could share?
- [17:45]
B
Yeah, I mean the businesses that we work for, a lot of those are sort of scaling businesses. I mean there's lots of, I guess obvious examples out there. People like the Richard Branson's of the world, who I think were pioneers in personal brand and using kind of the first almost. I would say he was probably, probably the first. Yeah. I'm trying to think, I suppose people like Henry Ford and people like that.
- [18:07]
A
May have come before they think about personal brand. You think Henry Ford was thinking about that? Was he just thinking about making a good car?
- [18:15]
B
I think he probably stood for a whole generation of I guess manufacturing and industry that didn't exist before he came. So he, he was a category leader, wasn't he, in that sort of automotive industry and probably pioneer. Yeah. And as was Richard Branson. An icon of anyways, I guess like 1940s, 50s America. Yeah. Now sort of racking my brains really get examples from this day and age.
- [18:41]
A
Well, maybe there aren't many. That may be the challenge for all of us in business. We've got to step up and do better.
- [18:45]
B
No, I think there are so many now. I think that.
- [18:48]
A
So many. You'd say it's the opposite.
- [18:49]
B
Yeah, I think there are a lot and I think that people do look to those individuals to work out whether they want to work for that business or do business with that business. And we can pull out lots of sort of, I guess blue chip businesses. But I think those sorts of strategies of building a personal brand is really key in that scaling business phase and in that startup phase where, where, where that's just an opportunity to get ahead and to use.
- [19:19]
A
So when you think about building personal brand, I mean, is there some sort of list of types of personal brand? I mean, can you be this type? Is it like picking a color? I mean. Well, I mean, how do you approach it? What, what. I mean, how do you begin with a personal brand? Because we're all somebody. Yeah, we all Have a name. We all come from somewhere.
- [19:39]
B
Absolutely.
- [19:40]
A
So, so, but what else is required here?
- [19:44]
B
So first of all, it's the sort of strategic aspect of it, which is again, what we said, coming back to the values, what do you stand for really articulating those and getting those down on paper so you can use those to judge everything you do by. Secondly, it's about the messages that you want to get across. So it's not enough just to think about broadcasting and getting out there and saying things on different channels. You need to really think about what it is that you want to say and have those sort of articulated. Thirdly, it's looking at the channels on which you can be most effective, being quite single minded about those, picking two, three, whatever your time and budget allows for to invest in those. And then fourth, it's looking about how you're going to amplify what you're doing. What is going to give you that sense of credibility so that people see you as a, as a recognizable personal brand. So that might be, are there awards that you should be going for? Are there speaker opportunities where you should be having something to say? Are there networks where you could be investing in those networks that are going to move the industry on?
- [20:51]
A
This sounds like a full time job though. You got to run a business or sell a product or whatever.
- [21:00]
B
I disagree, actually.
- [21:01]
A
I disagree.
- [21:01]
B
I disagree.
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A
Why?
- [21:03]
B
Because I think a lot of business leaders do all this stuff naturally anyway. What they don't do is package it up and use their channels to replay it. I mean, most business leaders, when they're building a business, will be already thinking about, oh gosh, the talent pool of the future.
- [21:20]
A
So they haven't found their media really, but they're sort of doing it.
- [21:23]
B
They're doing lots of great stuff, but what they're doing is articulating that back through their channels. So half of it will be about taking stock. You know, what am I actually doing to build this business that will be of interest to others and how can I showcase that through my own channels? And so taking people on a journey with you to show them how you're building your business or what it takes or, you know, that's all really interesting content as well.
- [21:51]
A
I mean, what about this word authenticity? It comes up a lot, you know, so You've got a LinkedIn page, lots of people following it. Should you get your assistant to post on it or should you do it yourself?
- [22:04]
B
I think you should do it yourself.
- [22:06]
A
Yeah, I agree. So I do mine. But it is time consuming.
- [22:10]
B
It doesn't mean that others can't guide you. So we talked about a content strategy and having sort of key pillars of things that you might talk about. Other, other people can guide you with that. Communications.
- [22:24]
A
Here's a sort of menu of things you should be thinking of doing over the next few periods and some ideas. Yeah. So you can get input and help.
- [22:32]
B
Yeah. And you can use other assets that you're creating in other areas of marketing to then play back on your own personal channels. So if you appear in an article in the press, you know, replay that through LinkedIn or if you, if part of your business has commissioned some research, you know, replay that at a speaker platform that you're talking at.
- [22:51]
A
So make sure you're using everything, using.
- [22:53]
B
Everything you've got and start there. Don't, don't look to create stuff from the outset. Look at what you're already doing. That's probably the most cost effective and time effective way.
- [23:03]
A
And for sure you'll be doing stuff. So you start, you'll be doing it.
- [23:06]
B
I mean, I've never met a founder that isn't passionate about what they're doing. And if they're passionate about what they're doing, they're normally passionate about the industry that they're in and they probably care deeply about the staff that they're growing and all of that. There'll be aspects of that that they can tell those stories about. So you know why they've taken on or invested in apprenticeship.
- [23:27]
A
Interesting to me listening to this is from when I started in my career. There was no, there was no sort of suggestion that you should be sharing all that stuff publicly about, you know, how you do your business, you know, how you run your company. And now you're saying it's, it's a good thing to do that and to do it all through these different channels.
- [23:46]
B
Yes. Yeah.
- [23:46]
A
Because. Why? Why?
- [23:48]
B
Because I think people are looking for new ideas. And I think that from a, I guess the buzzword over the last few years has been thought leadership. I think we're in a new era now of full leadership because we have, we have new challenges in our world, don't we?
- [24:04]
A
Certainly do.
- [24:04]
B
We have cost of living crisis that many employers are trying to support their employees through. We have mental health challenges that many employers feel really responsible for helping their employees to overcome. We have all sorts of sort of, I guess, ideology, politically that we're trying to navigate. And so the role of a leader now is sitting across all of these very, very challenging, polarizing conversations and trying to navigate their staff and their team and their workforce through those. And that's challenging. And they, they need to. And by sharing perhaps their approaches or the ideas that they've got or how they've tackled certain subjects that can be really compelling to all aspects of their supply chain or their stakeholders.
- [24:53]
A
I really like thoughtful leadership.
- [24:55]
B
Thank you.
- [24:56]
A
Thanks for. No, thanks for sharing that. I'm gonna use that and think about it. And, and all those things you've just described are surreal and. And we're all trying to keep our show on the road, so to speak, and keep the team together and keep people focused and keep people, I hope, happy in their work. So that, that, that is a new kind of leadership in many ways.
- [25:17]
B
It is, it is.
- [25:18]
A
And I guess especially with digital and working remotely and all these new things that have happened really, in the last decade.
- [25:25]
B
Yeah. And I guess you can't just be focused on profit anymore, can you? I mean, ultimately, I'm a true believer in growth. I don't think that we can have conversations about business without talking about growth. But at the same time, there is responsibility towards planet and to people as well. And I don't think there's ever been a time when there's been more responsibility needed to those two other things. So leadership is not in a vacuum. It's the consideration of how profit is made in context of those other two areas. And so leaders do have to navigate their way through that. And all of that content is really, really interesting.
- [26:06]
A
So that's profit with purpose.
- [26:08]
B
Yeah. I mean, purpose is such an overused word, isn't it? And it's, it's challenging purpose. Now, what do you mean? Well, because I guess a lot of companies, especially if they've got foot both sides of the Atlantic is the Atlantic, isn't it, with the U.S. yeah, if.
- [26:23]
A
That'S the way you're going. Yeah, yeah. Going to France. It's a channel.
- [26:28]
B
It's really challenging, isn't it? Because, you know, perhaps what would have landed in the last administration won't land well now. And if you're running a global business, you've got to take into account perhaps what all of your audiences are thinking and feeling. So companies do need to be.
- [26:44]
A
That becomes very difficult. I mean, I think the company's got to believe in its own purpose, surely.
- [26:48]
B
Correct. But I think that's where the values come in, isn't it? Company's got to follow its own values and what it cares about.
- [26:54]
A
Yeah. I mean, our purpose is improving lives through work. Whoever's the president of the United States or anywhere else doesn't change.
- [27:01]
B
Yeah.
- [27:01]
A
So. But it worries me that you think, you know, some company might have to sort of, you know, do some sort of dance to change their purpose because of what's going on politically.
- [27:09]
B
No, it's not, it's not a dance. I think it's more about how companies come back to their sort of true values and how they're living those. Not just throwing around words like purpose, but really focusing on that.
- [27:22]
A
But of course, the reality, it's become a bit sort of.
- [27:24]
B
Yeah.
- [27:25]
A
Overused.
- [27:25]
B
Yeah. I mean, you won't see any sort of marketing comms these days without the word purpose thrown in.
- [27:31]
A
Right.
- [27:32]
B
But I think what purpose means and how companies articulate it has to reflect their own values and their own ideology.
- [27:39]
A
Yeah. So. So one of the things you do, I believe, is, is help companies when they have a crisis.
- [27:46]
B
Yes.
- [27:47]
A
So I, I've been thinking about a few. I mean, I follow business stories closely and there have been a few business stories that have given me the heebie gps and I think, oh, you know, what would I have done in that situation? Well, I'd have called a good communications expertise and said, how can you help? So can I just role play a couple of these?
- [28:08]
B
Oh, my goodness. I'm a bit nervous about this, but absolutely, please go ahead.
- [28:13]
A
Well, one big story this spring was the Heathrow Airport fire.
- [28:19]
B
Oh, yes.
- [28:20]
A
And you'll remember that was a fire that occurred at an Electric Tracy substation in the night and it closed Heathrow, or the decision was taken to close Heathrow.
- [28:30]
B
That's right.
- [28:30]
A
Which meant, you know, 1,200 flights were canceled, 200,000 passengers were inconvenienced, to say the least, and a lot of money was lost. And so one of the, one of the notable things that came out of that was that the CEO Thomas Woldby had slept through this momentous night. The CEO of Heathrow. And so I am, for the purpose of this role play, Thomas Holby. And I've just woken up and I've called you.
- [29:06]
B
Oh, my Lord.
- [29:07]
A
Yeah, I'm saying, Sarah, what, what should I say? What should I do? What, what's, what should I be thinking about now this has happened. Help me, please.
- [29:16]
B
Absolutely. Well, the best help that any PR person could have given Heathrow at that time is the preparedness that would have gone in pre this crisis situation.
- [29:27]
A
Oh, thanks for that.
- [29:28]
B
Yeah.
- [29:28]
A
But it's happened.
- [29:29]
B
No, we'll come on to that in a minute, but.
- [29:31]
A
Okay.
- [29:32]
B
Ultimately it's all about the process when it comes to crisis communication. So it's about knowing who's on call, who's responsible, how they're contactable, what that process looks like to make sure that the right people are available in this sort of instance, and then who is going to step in if that person, for some reason, I don't know, wife's in labor or they're in a family crisis or something is going to take over. So, so someone did take.
- [30:01]
A
Someone did make the decision to close down. It wasn't like there was no one there. But he, he obviously made the decision to switch his phone off, which is not an unreasonable. You know, we keep hearing. I've talked to many people who say, you know, shouldn't have your phone on 24 7. You should give it, you know, it's not good for one's mental health, should turn it off. Yeah, so that's what happened here.
- [30:22]
B
So I guess then if you were the PR person briefing him as you have, as that's the scenario that you've given, then I guess it's about being honest with him about the impact that's going to have, which it did have on the perception because people were outraged that that would have led to him not being available to speak to the. To the public. So in that instance, I don't think. I think you've just got to. You, you can't shy away from what's happened. You can't pretend that you weren't asleep.
- [30:52]
A
You have to say it as it is.
- [30:54]
B
You got to say it how it is. You've got to lean on the fact that you've got a very capable team, that, you know, there was a process in place and that exec team is all sort of responsible. But I think also probably an apology is also required in that instance because ultimately, when you're the chief exec, can you ever really be off? That is the question.
- [31:18]
A
Okay. Okay, thank you for that. Well, that's a good question. Can you really ever be off if you're the chief exec? That's one for us to reflect on. Possibly not. And so the next one was a tragedy that happened in America, which was the assassination of Brian Thompson, the CEO of United Healthcare.
- [31:37]
B
Yes.
- [31:37]
A
By a young man who's been accused of this crime called Luigi Mangione. And, And Luigi Mangione was apprehended, you might recall, in a McDonald's. And not long after his apprehension, because someone who worked at McDonald's called the Police, they recognized him and he was arrested. Not long after his apprehension, a tweet appeared on X from Burger King, simply said, we don't snitch. And then it's become apparent sometime later that this wasn't actually from Burger King. The tweet. We don't snitch. It was a fictitious account looking like Burger King, but it went viral. And Burger King got a lot of incoming comment, some of it favorable and some of it critical, criticizing the insensitivity of their communication. They didn't actually do it. So I'm the marketing manager at Burger King. What would you advise me to do in that situation?
- [32:43]
B
I think that warrants a statement from the business just to say, you know, take matters like this, although you have a reputation for humor and they've done some great work in the past, haven't they, where they've, I guess, riddled McDonald's or take. Taken them taking the mickey out of McDonald's. But in this instance, I think that's a statement from the CEO just to say, you know, this is fake news. This didn't happen. We didn't put the statement out. We support our colleagues at McDonald's. Yeah, absolutely. Because it's the. There's a real gravity there in that situation. It's not. It's not one for humor.
- [33:18]
A
Interesting. I don't actually know what they did, so I know.
- [33:22]
B
I'm trying to recall myself.
- [33:23]
A
I'm not sure they did anything.
- [33:24]
B
I don't think they did anything.
- [33:25]
A
No. So they didn't do what you just suggested?
- [33:27]
B
No, but I do think, you know, I think that that's quite.
- [33:30]
A
I mean, are we.
- [33:31]
B
Someone's died, haven't they?
- [33:32]
A
Yeah, but are we responsible for correcting what other people are doing in our name? Nefariously, I don't know.
- [33:42]
B
No, but I guess you probably want it on record somewhere that you behaved in the correct manner. You were a good corporate citizen. At the end of the day, you choose the situations you make light of. Maybe that's not one to. To make light of. It's difficult, isn't it? We live in a world where you absolutely can't control the narrative anymore.
- [34:05]
A
No, quite. That's what social media is interesting about, these scenarios. Yeah.
- [34:09]
B
I mean, maybe billions of people could know about your crisis before you, as the CEO, even knows about it. Especially if you've slept through the night. Yeah, absolutely. You can't control the narrative, but you can do things. Do you remember the Astronomer case recently where Gwyneth Paltrow appeared in a video after the event, after the. The kiss, where.
- [34:32]
A
This is the Coldplay concept.
- [34:33]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought that was a brilliant way to kind of Bring the narrative.
- [34:37]
A
So what did Gwyneth Paltrow do?
- [34:39]
B
So astronomer her to appear in a video. It's very tongue in cheek and all. And all it did was sort of ask questions about the company and helped sort of correct, I guess, bring it back to the business and what the business actually did rather than being about the kiss and the CEO.
- [34:55]
A
But this was a company no one had ever heard of before this event.
- [34:58]
B
No, absolutely. And, and probably a business that was completely irrelevant to most the people.
- [35:02]
A
Relatively small startup, I think. But neither the CEO nor the HR director are still there, I think.
- [35:09]
B
No, that's right. But I.
- [35:10]
A
So it was obviously their successors that decided to involve Gwyneth.
- [35:13]
B
Yeah, I just thought it was such a good quick turnaround of an idea and you know, using that link between Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin, she's his ex wife. And then the way that the video was staged was just a brilliant way to take back control of the narrative. And as we said, as I said, it's impossible, isn't it now to control the narrative. But you can.
- [35:36]
A
That was sort of the story of the summer.
- [35:39]
B
Oh my goodness.
- [35:39]
A
Every summer has some moment.
- [35:41]
B
It was every PR's nightmare, wasn't it?
- [35:43]
A
I don't know. I don't know. I mean it was pretty good for Coldplay. Everyone knows they're on tour now if they didn't before.
- [35:51]
B
Yeah, that's true.
- [35:52]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so then the third one I'm going to ask you, and this, this was a big story, was the, the cyber attack on Marks and Spencer?
- [36:03]
B
Oh yes.
- [36:04]
A
Which obviously caused huge disruption and, and, and closed down aspects and elements of the business. I'm the CEO of Marks and Spencers. What advice would you be giving me in a situation like that?
- [36:18]
B
Do you know what? I'd love to give advice but you know, I think Ms. Did such a great job.
- [36:22]
A
So why did they do a good job in your view?
- [36:24]
B
Because they kept communication channels really open. They were very honest. They kept everyone up to date with what was happen. Think if anything, what it really proved was how much this country loves Marks and Spencers and how reliant we are on them. We have a Marks and Spencer's just around the corner from our office food hall. And the way that the customers were interacting with the staff, you know, feeling sorry for them because their shelves were empty, still supporting them by buying what was available, you know, that was just an incredible, you know, incredible response. But they're from a communications point of view. I, I can't, I Can't criticize them. I felt like they did a brilliant job.
- [37:05]
A
So you obviously followed that.
- [37:07]
B
Absolutely.
- [37:07]
A
Communications really closely. I mean, just the sort of three key things they did that we can learn from.
- [37:13]
B
Yeah. They were super quick to react and honest about what was happening.
- [37:17]
A
We've got a problem.
- [37:18]
B
Yeah, they kept people up to date every step of the way. They used all of their channels to communicate what was going on. And then they, as things started to come back online, then they were communicating what was back online and what wasn't. And they did a really good job at reassuring people that their data. What was going on with their data because obviously that was the most sensitive aspect of the. Of the situation. So. And I guess they weren't the only one that was attacked at that time. It's probably the biggest impact on them compared to others. But they came out of it the most favorably.
- [37:54]
A
They weren't the only one. And others, the toughest question I think they were asked and others were as well was well, did you pay the hackers anything to go away? And different companies gave different answers.
- [38:09]
B
Yeah, well, I suppose that's all down to the cyber insurance and whether their cyber insurance.
- [38:14]
A
It was interesting to me that different companies gave different answers.
- [38:18]
B
Yeah, I think, I mean, this isn't a comms response, I guess, but it's becoming more and more difficult for the bigger companies to pay the hackers because I think that's what.
- [38:28]
A
Yeah, I don't know. It was either no comment or no.
- [38:32]
B
Yeah.
- [38:33]
A
And so if it wasn't no, you wondered what no comment meant?
- [38:36]
B
Well, absolutely no comment probably means the opposite.
- [38:39]
A
Well, exactly. So that was interesting. And I suppose given what you were saying about being prepared, it might be good to have a, a view on whether you're going to do anything of that sort before this happened. Yeah, I'm just thinking sort of.
- [38:53]
B
Definitely. Yeah. Though the issues, preparedness side is so important and that's where a cry a crisis starts. Well, before a crisis hits, a crisis starts if you haven't prepared for it. So really thinking through what other things that could go wrong with your business, what are the technological things that could go wrong? What are the human. We're all human, aren't we? We all make errors.
- [39:14]
A
But then something like Covid happens. I mean, that's quite hard to prepare for, isn't it?
- [39:19]
B
Yes, I will admit that that is really hard to prepare for.
- [39:23]
A
So there are things that we can prepare for.
- [39:25]
B
Yeah, there are things that we can definitely prepare for.
- [39:27]
A
I suppose we're all in that in the Same boat.
- [39:29]
B
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I think there's still aspects of COVID that you can prepare for in terms of sort of an outbreak of something, whatever that might be.
- [39:38]
A
Well, now we're more.
- [39:39]
B
Yeah, yeah, we probably, but. But yeah, very hard to predict that one for sure.
- [39:44]
A
Yeah, yeah. So I want to ask you about technology. I mean, we've just alluded to it a little bit and AI, you know, everyone's talking about it, so I'm sorry to land this on, but how is AI changing how people find and evaluate businesses online? You know, this is part of your sort of world, positioning people and businesses in a positive way to their potential customers or wider stakeholders. And what should entrepreneurs be aware of?
- [40:14]
B
Yeah, okay, so whereas if you needed information before, you would go to Google. Now obviously a lot of people are going to other platforms like ChatGPT, TikTok, YouTube, all of those places are acting like search engines now and bringing you up information in different sort of formats. So in Google, your search, if you, you type a question, you'll get a number of different sort of search engine results come up. Everybody's always talked about the first page of Google, haven't they? Whereas now if you go to AI, you're more likely to just get a response. You won't necessarily get a link to different websites. So whereas before you might have ranked in the first five.
- [40:58]
A
So what you do. Yeah. How do you.
- [41:00]
B
Well, you need to look at where those AI platforms are pulling their information from and they're all pulling them from different sources. So you need to really learn and.
- [41:09]
A
Understand how can you see that? You can ask it, you just ask it directly.
- [41:13]
B
You can ask the AI, where are.
- [41:14]
A
You getting your information?
- [41:14]
B
Where are you getting your information?
- [41:15]
A
So that should be your first question.
- [41:17]
B
Yeah. Or you can look at, you can, you can ask the AI platform about your own business and find out where it's pulling from. And that will give you some idea of the sort of platforms and things that you need to be influencing. You can think about your own communications plans and how they're supporting you and being found. So I don't want to make this a massive plug about public relations, but you mentioned about media coverage when we first started speaking today and yeah, if you are well quoted in the press, if you're, if there's lots of information about your business and different sources, it's not just the media, it could be influencers talking about you, it could be information about you on membership websites or industry platforms, etc. Etc. That's going to stand you in good stead. Because then what that's telling AI is that you're a credible business, that other people feel you're a credible business, bring that information.
- [42:14]
A
So that's what I was going to ask you, the role, media coverage. So you're saying if you've got media coverage, AI will go and find that.
- [42:20]
B
Yes.
- [42:21]
A
And then replay it back to whoever's asking the question.
- [42:24]
B
Yes, yeah. That might change over the next couple of years because there's obviously a lot of cases out there where the media are trying to grapple with how they want those AI platforms to scour their.
- [42:36]
A
Well, they don't like it. Their website, their IP being sort of.
- [42:39]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So I think this will all change. It's constantly changing. So any advice will go out of date really, really quickly. But at the moment those, those platforms are really important because they've got really high domain authorities. So, you know.
- [42:54]
A
So these are third party publishers.
- [42:56]
B
Yeah, absolutely. They've got really high domain authorities. And so that's telling AI that, you know, that's really credible information and that, that, that support.
- [43:04]
A
There's a lot of fake information out there as well, isn't there?
- [43:06]
B
Is there?
- [43:07]
A
I could be going on that too.
- [43:09]
B
It could, it could be. Which is why it's always important to ask for sources if you're, if you're doing a search. And it's also important to look beyond sort of media coverage as well.
- [43:18]
A
So explain. You said something I want to understand. So it's important to ask for sources if you're doing a search. Do you mean on each search?
- [43:25]
B
So if you're, so if you were, I don't know, looking for, say, say in the recruitment industry, if you were looking for a new supplier of office furniture or something like that, you might, and you, and it brought up a series of results for you, it would be worth you saying, and what are the sources for that? So you can judge whether you feel those sources.
- [43:44]
A
So that should be a good supplementary question.
- [43:46]
B
Yeah, absolutely. If you're in the sort of, if you're in a world where you're using AI to, to look for information because.
- [43:53]
A
You want to know whether it's.
- [43:54]
B
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
- [43:56]
A
Reliable.
- [43:56]
B
Definitely, definitely. But, but I guess when it comes to you marketing your own business, then yeah, absolutely. Media is a really good source to build credibility. But you should also be looking at influencers within your space, looking at the way you're portrayed across different channels and your own media activity. So whether you've got your own YouTube channel, the role of your own LinkedIn, all of those sort of platforms will be scoured for that information.
- [44:24]
A
So that was my next question really. How can founders optimize their own content such as websites or articles or other platforms to surface themselves successfully?
- [44:35]
B
Yeah, sure.
- [44:35]
A
So what would, what would be your advice to focus on first?
- [44:38]
B
No problem. So I guess in the old days when it was all about search engine results, it was, it was all about keywords. So companies would try to make sure that websites had a lot of keywords on that might, may help them be found. Now it's a lot of it's about intent. So trying to understand what potential buyers or people that want information, whatever format is, or whatever. The question might be that they understand the intent behind the questions. So for instance, if I wanted to get my nails done after this session, then the question, the intent that I would have would be what would be great nail salons around Chancery Lane? So my intent is of, is captured in a whole question there rather than a singular word.
- [45:23]
A
So but you would, you would put in a longer search into chat, GPT or whatever if you would ask it that question, wouldn't you?
- [45:31]
B
Yeah, yes, absolutely.
- [45:33]
A
Put nail salons near me. I mean probably give you the same result.
- [45:36]
B
Yeah, probably, probably give you the same result. But I guess it's also just really trying to think of you with a nail salon. What, what people are going to ask for. So yeah, acrylic nails near me or.
- [45:48]
A
Oh, so you're saying from the nail salons point of view. Yes, they need to. So what, so how, what should they be doing then to make sure that they come up first in your AI generated answer to that question.
- [46:02]
B
Oh, that's this poor nail salon. I'm going to create a lot of work for them now, aren't I?
- [46:06]
A
I think you're going to help them a lot. Anyone in nail salons listen to this? So what should they be doing?
- [46:12]
B
So they, they need to make sure. So they could be working with local influencers to talk about different services that they offer that might be different to other nail salons. Yeah, absolutely. They could be thinking about Google reviews and ensuring that all of their customers are giving them good reviews or incentivizing them to do that. They should be thinking about platforms like YouTube, perhaps they're doing tutorials for customers and how to take care of their nails. They could be looking also platforms like even things like Google my business, you know, it might be Google, but it's still important because it's still a trust signal that they've got, you know, their profile up together on that. They've got lots of images and videos about what they're doing on those types of platforms. So it's just trying to understand all those different touch points that could influence the search. And although Google, you know, may not have the same sort of, I guess, power as it did before when it completely sort of owned the ecosystem, I mean, obviously there are others, Yahoo, Bing, etc. Google also has AI overview.
- [47:13]
A
So that's also sometimes comes up and sometimes, doesn't it?
- [47:16]
B
Yeah, it does, Yeah. I think 55% of the time I read earlier. Yeah. But it's becoming more and more, you know, part of that platform too. So you, you, you're more like, you just as likely to get an AI sort of type of response on Google is what you would using ChatGPT, you.
- [47:32]
A
Gave a lot of useful tips to the nail salon. But one thing that, that I particularly think is special is this idea of tutorials. And we had a wonderful baker on the podcast recently and he runs bakery courses. And it seems to me that if you do that and you're giving back in that way, helping people learn something that really helps with content and sort of activation.
- [47:59]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [48:00]
A
You've seen that elsewhere, have you?
- [48:01]
B
Definitely. I think that comes back to that whole idea of that thoughtful leadership piece. It's, it's, it's also about being helpful, isn't it? I think one thing we've seen in business and all the different industries that we work in is since COVID a lot of people that were competitors have now become almost collaborative. You know, that environment is changed. People want other people to succeed.
- [48:24]
A
Yeah. You think in the old days, well, I'm a baker. Why am I going to teach other people to be bakers? Because they'll compete with me.
- [48:29]
B
Yeah.
- [48:29]
A
But you're now saying this helpful aspect which goes with thoughtful is very important.
- [48:34]
B
Now being helpful is really, really important. And it's not a, it's a pretty good content strategy is to share, you know, what, what you do. If you're on the consumer side, obviously that might be around, as you said, consumer marketing side, showing people how to make bread, how to make cakes, et cetera, et cetera. And if you're in the business to business world, that might be around how you're building your business or what you're doing differently. That's creating success.
- [48:59]
A
Yeah, I think I like this. Thoughtful and helpful are good communication starting points? I think so, yeah. Are there any other smart ways that small businesses can use AI tools to communicate effectively? Because yeah, we're trying to help our audience here.
- [49:17]
B
Yeah.
- [49:19]
A
Build their business.
- [49:20]
B
I think I should be part of any communications toolbox now.
- [49:23]
A
Got any special ideas?
- [49:24]
B
Yeah, for sure. So I guess there's lots of ways that you can use AI to sort of triangulate research and insights. So if you're starting out and you haven't got the budget to do your own proprietary research into your customer base, you can use AI to develop prompts to help you find out more about your customer. You can create your own sort of little GPTs which aren't hard to do. And I say that because I've done it and I'm definitely not within my team.
- [49:56]
A
Have you created.
- [49:57]
B
So we've, so we've created one for clients on award entries. So it's, it takes a lot of time to write award entries.
- [50:06]
A
So if you want to go into a composition field, Business.
- [50:09]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So we've programmed GPTs with client information. We've used obviously professional versions of those AI tools so that, that, that information is safe and secure and governed. And then every time we want to enter something we can write down what it is we want to say, pop that through AI, get the information back and then it's really important to then have that human touch to shape it up, make sure it's accurate.
- [50:36]
A
You can enter a lot more awards.
- [50:37]
B
You can enter a lot more rewards, but most importantly you can save quite a lot of time. And then if we get back to that sort of research and insight bit, you can, you can program GPTs to be your, your, your audience. So if your audience is, I don't know, 40 year old, 40 year old middle class men or something like that, then you can program a GPT to be and to think and to act like we've got nail salons, we've got 40 year old man, I'm coming out with all of them today.
- [51:09]
A
Are you suggesting all 40 year old men are the same?
- [51:12]
B
No, no. You can create multiple personality.
- [51:15]
A
That's even more frightening.
- [51:16]
B
Yeah, exactly. But what that does is just allows you.
- [51:19]
A
So what does it do?
- [51:19]
B
Yeah, it allows you to have a conversation so you can say, how will this land?
- [51:23]
A
What do you think of this, Dave?
- [51:24]
B
Or what do you think of that? So there's lots there that you can build. I mean all of that takes time of course, but it's going to be a lot more cost effective.
- [51:31]
A
Sure.
- [51:32]
B
Than using research houses. And then when you get into communications, I think, you know, anyone that runs a PR agency or works in PR is considering or using, starting to use AI. In their comms. But it's really important that it's human first and that anything AI is used to augment what you're already doing rather than create it from scratch. And. Yeah, and that efficiency is all about then creating time to do more meaningful work, you know, better consultancy. It's freeing up your time to do. To do valuable activities that are going to move your business on.
- [52:07]
A
So Creating your own GPTs is a big message.
- [52:10]
B
It is, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, our team love triangulating research with, with AI. So they'll look at research from different sources and then pop that in and ask to find the overlaps and then they feel much more confident.
- [52:25]
A
Is that what you mean by triangle?
- [52:26]
B
Yeah. So they take lots of different sources.
- [52:29]
A
Yeah.
- [52:29]
B
And put it into AI, and then they use that to sort of see where the overlap is and where they then start to feel confident in the output of that. That of that research. Because when you're sort of developing those.
- [52:41]
A
Communications plans, this is more reliable than it.
- [52:45]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So, you know, for instance, information that's widely available. So you, I mean, gosh, some of those big consultancies like PwC and EY, they're really generous, aren't they, with what they publish? You can start to, you know, take some of that information and say, well, how this relate to my business? What should I be taking out of this? And it just, just support some of your thinking also.
- [53:07]
A
There's a lot of it, so it takes a long time. Unless you have some help to decide which to read.
- [53:12]
B
Yeah, definitely, definitely. And then from a communications point of view, we talked about thoughtful leadership, but let's go back to thought leadership. If you want to understand where you can sit in on a topic compared to your competitors, you can start to ask AI, you know, what are my competitors doing on this subject matter? What's the space that I could own on this? What's the sort of narrative that I could develop to help me stand out my business to stand out. And all those sort of prompts and you have to keep prompting, keep shaping, can lead you somewhere. I mean, you've still got to put the human aspect and you've still got to have a point of view, but it does help you to. To find it. Yeah, exactly. But it helps you to find space, isn't it? Because potentially we live in such a.
- [53:56]
A
Cluttered communication to create our business strategy yet. But I might try it now. One of my competitors doing. Always an interesting question, so bring all this together. You know, what next for ambitious? What are you going to be doing. Where are you going to take the business from here?
- [54:16]
B
Well, we're on a bit of a journey at the moment to double our revenue in the next two to three years. So that's a really big thing focus for us and we're doing that through sort of growing into the sectors that we're strong in. So we do a lot in professional services, financial services, a lot in sort of that ESG space as well. And then, yeah, technology is a big focus for us as a sector too. So. And the kind of clients that we're working with, the scaling businesses, we're growing with them. So as they grow, we grow. Many of our client relationships are sort of in the fifth, sixth, seventh plus years. So. Right, as long as we start, keep, keep, keep going with those, then we can, we can, we can grow alongside.
- [54:59]
A
Of our clients and your clients all over the country or in a particular area or around the world.
- [55:03]
B
I mean, all over the country, really. So we're based in, in, in Bristol and that is a huge growth area as a high GDP compared to some parts of the uk. So we have a lot of businesses that are coming out of that part of the country and that stood us in really good stead. So about 50% of our business of our clients are based in Bristol, but they are going national or international and then the other 50% are all over the world. We come up and down to London regularly because we've got a lot of clients here too, and it's great to have that mix and we play a very active role. I suppose that's another PR strategy. But being, being a very active player within our community serves us very well. You know, investing in the different business communities that we have there. That's part of our soft power, I guess, as an agency and something we recommend our clients do as well is, you know, be active in the communities that you're in.
- [55:58]
A
So you're big in Bristol, we're big in Bristol. I love Bristol, that's a great city. So I hope you get bigger in Bristol. That's very good. So. Well, thank you so much for coming.
- [56:13]
B
In to talk to me today. Thank you.
- [56:15]
A
I really found that very interesting. I'm going to ask you a couple of questions I ask everybody at the end. My first question is, what gets you up on a Monday morning?
- [56:28]
B
Doing great work for our clients, but mostly it's seeing the growth in our team. We haven't had anyone leave our team on the client servicing side for five whole years and seeing those people go From I guess being junior to senior or mid to senior, it's just incredible. So yeah, my team get me out of bed because they're all excitable, they're all investing in their futures, they're investing in understanding sort of technology that's coming down the line and their excitement really fuels me.
- [57:02]
A
Fantastic. And my last question, which is from my interview, but why you is where do you see yourself in 5 years time? It's not meant to be a joke. You can laugh. People should do that in job interviews.
- [57:16]
B
I hope in the next few years we, we double our revenue and we meet our goal to do that. And I'd love to be in a position then where absolutely still very much involved in ambitious and its growth. But I'd love to be giving back more to the PR community and the sectors that we're, we're active in because I think in my 25 years, the real joy for me now is, is, is making a contribution and seeing the impact of that rather than it being sort of all, all about me.
- [57:47]
A
Fantastic. Well, I wish you every success with that and thank you again for coming in to talk to me. That was very enjoyable and interesting. Thanks so much.
- [57:55]
B
Thank you.
- [57:57]
A
Thank you, Sarah, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reid, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reid, Sarah, and ambitious. All links are in the show notes. See you next time.