48: Is your passion a business worth starting?: The simple method to find out | Johnnie Boden

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: James Reed: All About Business
Episode: 48: “Is Your Passion a Business Worth Starting?: The Simple Method to Find Out”
Guest: Johnnie Boden, Founder and Creative Director, Boden
Date: October 20, 2025
Host: James Reed

James Reed welcomes Johnnie Boden, founder of the iconic British clothing brand Boden, for a candid, insightful discussion on transforming personal passion into a successful business. The episode explores Johnnie’s unconventional career journey, the lessons learned in building Boden into a household name, practical frameworks for aligning passion with business viability, the importance of adapting to feedback, and advice for both aspiring entrepreneurs and seasoned business leaders.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Johnnie Boden's Early Career & Finding His Passion

• Career Detours and Motivation:

  • Johnnie started in the City after Oxford, attracted by “glamour” and financial prospects but admitted he was “completely useless at it.”

    “The money was good, the girls were pretty... But I was completely useless at it. I wasn't a very good stock picker or... didn't really get the point.” (03:11)

  • Spent time working as a teacher and running a pub, but neither suited him.
  • His wife, Sophie, played a pivotal role in prompting him to act on his clothing business idea:

    “She said, ‘Well, if you don’t do it, I’m going to leave you.’ So that was the catalyst.” (03:02)

• Lifelong Interest in Clothes:

  • Early passion: Shopping for secondhand clothes at Portobello Road, writing for a teenage fashion magazine, and observing fashion as a child.
  • Despite family background not supportive of creativity, his interest was persistent:

    “You've got to find out... what is it that you're really, really interested in. Sometimes it's very, very hard to work that out. But you're never going to be happy unless you do something you really love.” (06:04)

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2. Assessing If Passion Can Become a Business

• Experience and Self-Awareness:
  • Johnnie recommends trying various roles (“get holiday jobs, speak to people…make a list…narrow it down”) and being brutally honest about what you’re good at.
  • Emphasizes the intersection of passion, skill, and economic viability, referencing Jim Collins' "Good to Great" Venn Diagram:

    “What you are deeply passionate about. What drives your economic engine. What you can be the best in the world at.” (11:31)

  • The biggest challenge: Identifying what you really love, and where that overlaps with market opportunity and ability.

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3. Boden's Evolution: From Menswear to Womenswear

• Market Feedback and Adaptation:

  • Started with menswear but discovered it wasn't profitable due to men’s lower clothing spend:

    “Men make do... Women, there is a psychological need to wear new clothes…and therefore the market is much bigger.” (13:21)

• Core Brand Values:

  • Boden’s three guiding principles: Uplifting, Grounded, and Stylish (“UGS”).
  • “Uplifting” implies color, uniqueness, cheerfulness—“Happiness you can wear.”
  • “Grounded” covers practicality, ethics, quality, value.
  • “Stylish” is about confidence and flattering clothing—transformation.

    “The most important thing with clothing is that...when she puts an item of clothing on, she feels fantastic. The clothes flatter her.” (19:51)

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4. Listening to Customers and Handling Change

• Feedback, Flexibility, and Difficult Choices:
  • Regularly surprised by which products sell — sometimes "boring dresses" become bestsellers (16:11).
  • Fashion business is uniquely challenging due to shifting trends and intense competition.
  • Pivoted to focus on profitable lines and let go of cherished but unviable products (“stopped menswear three years ago”, 15:35).

    “You have to listen to your customers and give them what they want, not what you wish they'd want.” (15:47)

  • Candid about fashion industry realities: half of competitors from 30 years ago have disappeared.

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5. The Entrepreneur’s Role: Management vs. Creativity

• Self-Awareness & Delegation:
  • Johnnie reflects on his strengths as a founder: creative vision, disruption, energy. Admits to being a “terrible manager.”
  • Stepped back from CEO and chairman roles, remaining as creative director and majority owner.

    “Entrepreneurs are terrible managers. By definition, an entrepreneur is quite wild, always looking at new ideas, disruptive... To be a good manager, you’ve got to be steady, measured, patient. I’m terribly impatient.” (22:29)

  • Advises against outside investment unless essential—warns of losing control, based on his own experiences:

    “If you're not willing to put the majority of your own assets into the business, then you shouldn't be doing it.” (25:31)

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6. Team, Hiring, and Culture

• Building a High-Performing Team:
  • Toughest decisions are about people—distinguishing between “9 out of 10” versus “7 out of 10” performers (28:06).

    “There’s a big difference between a 9 out of 10 person and a 7 out of 10 person, and sometimes you have to let go of good people who aren’t quite good enough.” (28:06)

  • Hiring best practices: use a mix of interviews, live tests (e.g., real design tasks), and detailed references (48:46).
  • Values those with real-world, hands-on job experience from a young age; looks for growth mindset:

    “If they can’t think of a holiday job, forget it.” (29:33)

  • Champions honesty, vulnerability, and rapport within teams for trust and effective feedback (37:43).
  • Recommends a gender-balanced interview panel and values women’s insights in candidate assessment (50:50).

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7. International Growth: Cracking America

• U.S. Expansion Strategy:
  • Boden built its U.S. business methodically—with strict spending limits and low overhead, targeting coastal, typically Democrat-leaning states at first (40:25).
  • Observed that Americans spend much more on clothes, and appreciate Boden’s British, colorful aesthetic.

    “They don’t hate themselves in the way that, you know... In England, people don’t want to stand out so much, but in America they love standing out.” (41:57)

  • Stresses challenges around tariffs, logistics, and the need for nimbleness in operations (43:27).
  • Preparing to open first U.S. store in Atlanta, embracing an experimental, trial-and-error approach to retail and marketing (44:09, 51:26).

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8. Handling Failure, Feedback, and Personal Growth

• Learning from Mistakes & Coaching:
  • Johnnie was twice "fired" from CEO and chairman roles, recognizing it’s best to play to his creative strengths (22:29–24:14).
  • Shares stories about hiring missteps and correcting cultural fit issues, especially after the business suffered heavy losses with the wrong leadership (48:26).
  • Is open about receiving—and struggling with—harsh 360-degree feedback, and advocates for regular coaching and self-reflection:

    “Anybody who can help you be more self-aware is a good thing.” (33:32)

  • Advice on feedback: Focus on growth, be able to laugh at criticism, and use it to improve (31:18).

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9. Future of Retail, Fashion & AI

• On AI and Technology:
  • Embracing AI already—using modeled images, analytics, and design aids.
  • Predicts that customers will be unfazed by AI-generated models or imagery (“Yes, I’m sure they will be.” 55:54), and that skills will shift into new areas, as with past technological change.

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10. Final Advice & Memorable Moments

• Testing a Business Idea:

  • “There’s an awful lot you can learn by testing the idea with your friends, asking what they think, listening... testing the idea of potential customers before committing.” (56:46)
  • Warns not to fall in love with ideas that don’t attract paying customers; the only thing that matters is if people will “pay for and change their behavior” for your product/service. (57:12)

• What Gets Him Up on Mondays:

  • “I love the people I work with. I love making, creating lovely things.” (58:40)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If you’re not willing to put the majority of your own assets into the business, then you shouldn’t be doing it.” – Johnnie Boden (25:31)
• “The most important thing is, is this a product or a service that people are willing to pay for and change their behavior? If you haven’t got that, then you haven’t got a business.” – Johnnie Boden (57:12)
• “You have to throw a lot of... shit at the wall and see what sticks. Marketing—no amount of theory can help... Just try lots of different things.” (52:58)
• “There’s a big difference between a 9 out of 10 person and a 7 out of 10 person.” (28:06)
• “Entrepreneurs are terrible managers. By definition, an entrepreneur is quite wild... To be a good manager, you’ve got to be steady, measured, patient. I’m terribly impatient.” (22:29)
• “The more you listen, the more the universe reveals itself.” – James Reed (27:01)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:00 – Introduction to Johnnie Boden and episode theme
• 01:24–06:04 – Johnnie’s early career, failed attempts, discovering fashion passion
• 08:21–12:42 – Framework for turning passion into business, Good to Great’s Venn diagram
• 13:09–15:46 – Shift from menswear to womenswear, brand values, listening to customers
• 17:23–20:59 – Navigating changing trends, evolving product lines, customer feedback
• 22:29–25:31 – Johnnie’s management style, delegating CEO/chairman roles, investment advice
• 27:01–30:39 – Team building, feedback culture, qualities of high performers, growth mindset
• 37:20–38:34 – Team honesty, vulnerability, fostering open feedback
• 40:25–44:09 – U.S. expansion strategy, lessons learned, international retail
• 48:26–50:59 – Lessons from failed hires, recruiting best practices, live testing candidates
• 52:58–54:12 – Aggressive trial & error, international focus, learning from failed foreign ventures
• 54:50–56:39 – AI’s future in retail, technology adaptation
• 56:46–58:12 – Founders’ advice: test, listen, iterate
• 58:40–59:09 – What motivates Johnnie: his team and the creative process
• 59:09–60:08 – Looking ahead: passion for work, balancing career and holidays

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Overall Tone and Takeaways

Lively, self-deprecating, candid, and filled with humility, Johnnie Boden’s insights are deeply practical and steeped in decades of trial, feedback, adaptation—and relentless testing. His story underscores the importance of genuine self-awareness, testing ideas in the market, building the right team, listening to feedback (even when it hurts), and focusing on enduring values while remaining nimble in the face of change.

For aspiring entrepreneurs: start small, stay honest, test voraciously, and never stop listening—to yourself, your team, and your customers.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Finding your passion is one thing. Knowing if you can turn it into a successful business is another. Most people never take that leap, but are you someone who should? Today, we're joined by Johnny Bowden, founder of the iconic British clothing brand Bowden, known for its bold colors and playful style. We'll explore how Johnny discovered his passion, assessed his strengths and built a brand that's now a household name. And how you too can align your own skills and passions to create something successful. Well, today on All About Business, I could not be more delighted than to welcome John Johnny Bowden to our studio. Fabulous to have you here. Johnny is the founder and creative director of the eponymous Bowden. And this is a company he started in 1991 that has grown to a business that is now turning over 350 million pounds a year and has over 2 million customers and sells in a number of countries, but most principally in the United States, Germany and the uk this company has become a household name. Johnny. And it's.

[B]

Well, you're very kind, James.

[A]

And I want to know how it all began. You know, what's the sort of story?

[B]

It's a. It's a slightly awkward beginning, like a lot of businesses, but I started when I left Oxford. I'm very lucky to go to Oxford. And I, I went to work in the city because I thought it was rather glamorous. You know, the money was good, the girls were pretty, it was all sound that sounded fantastic. But I was completely useless at it. I was very. I wasn't a very good stock picker or I didn't really get the point. And I didn't enjoy it very much. And my lovely firm, my firms were very kind to me and they sent me to work in America in 1988. And when I was in America, two dramatic things happened. The first of all was that I noticed all my colleagues in my bank were buying clothes from catalogs. I'd never seen this before. And secondly, I got left some money by a lovely childless uncle. And I thought, I've got to reinvent myself because I was so bad at what I was doing. So I threw in the towel. And I didn't initially, although I had an idea of good clothing business, it wasn't. I wasn't bold enough to do it straight away. So I did a couple of other things that I'd always wanted to do. I was a teacher for six months and then I ran a pub for six months. And none of those quite worked. I was far too greedy to be a successful teacher. I remember spending my paycheck in about a week, my monthly paycheck in a week. And then I didn't like running a pub because I. I wasn't very good at dealing with drunk people. And then I met Sophie, who is now my wife. And Sophie's very abrupt and she pointed out to me that I'd had this incredible start in life. I said, well, I've got this idea of a clothing business. And she said, well, if you don't do it, I'm going to leave you. So that was. That was the Catalan for this. Yes.

[A]

So it sounds to me, I mean, that you had a sort of twenties where you were trying different things and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is, I think, to be encouraged, really.

[B]

I quite agree. I always say to young people, if they're interested, I think it's absolutely fine to try lots of different things, but very important in order to find out what you really love and what you're really good at. But I think, you know, you've got to nail it by the time you're 30th. I mean, Van Gogh didn't start painting till he was 30. And I was think that's quite a salutary lesson. But I was always interested in clothes. That was the. That was the drive.

[A]

Now, I heard a story about you, Johnny, that I heard many years ago that made me think highly of you, which is you was. You were sent back to Oxford by your then employer, I think, from the city to talk to students about why they should come and join your firm and why a career in the city was a good thing. And I think halfway through your presentation you had a change of heart.

[B]

Yes. Is this true?

[A]

The historical level, it was sort of legendary at the time. What happened? What was your change of heart?

[B]

I. I couldn't really speak very convincingly about the city because I thought it was the whole thing was a casino. And I don't know why they asked me to talk, but I effectively said, in fact, this is a waste of time, this job. I should try something el five of you.

[A]

So you said that. And were they a G or.

[B]

They were, yes, I did that a few times. So I was.

[A]

A few times they rolled.

[B]

I was. I was. I was taken off the speaking list.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

The speakers list.

[A]

But you weren't dispatched entirely at that point. So you arrived at the age of 30. Sophie was being very direct and clear that you should have a go. How did it begin? What did you do? You mentioned you got some ideas from America with this catalog thing.

[B]

I mean, I think I need to go back a little bit because when I was school, I used to love going up to the Portobello Road and buying secondhand clothes. And I was also, when I was at Eton, I used to write for the school magazine, the Chronicle. And we got a letter from Harpers and Queen. It was a fashion magazine saying we're looking for a male. Some writers for our teenage edition. And I'd written an article about what boys, the sort of the various tribes of schoolboys and what they wore. And I submitted this article and they said, oh, would you like, like to be our male fashion editor? I thought that's really, that's great for the teenage edition, right. And so I'd always been interested in clothes. And I remember as a very young boy at my prep school, I was always obsessed about what my parents, friends, what my mother's friends were wearing, much to my father's sort of horror. So I had this interest.

[A]

And where did it come from, do you think?

[B]

Well, I don't know. My father was a soldier, but he was quite creative and he drew and he, he played the piano. And I just think, you know, that I was kind of born with a. With an eye, but it was something that was never encouraged. So it was very, very repressed, quite.

[A]

Good at dressing up. It's got a lot of bling sometimes, all that stuff.

[B]

I mean, I don't fun enough. My family were in fact lace makers, so there was, there was something there and I don't quite know exactly where it came from. The seed of an interest. And I think, you know, one of the things I always say to young people is, you know, you've got to find out what is it, what is your passion, what, what is, what is it that you're really, really interested in. And sometimes it's very, very hard to, to work, work that out. But you're never going to be happy unless you do something you really love. And I've always loved clothes. So it was that, that was the sort of decision that was a decision. And then of course I had to work out, well, how can I use that passion? And I. I felt there was. I mean, it's embarrassing to look back at what we did initially, but I thought there was a gap in the market. I was particularly interested in menswear and I always thought that there was. In the 70s, there was this great trend for pleated trousers, baggy trousers, John Travolta and all really pretty tragic shapes or they were kind of drainpipe shapes. I always thought there was a gap for a really well cut pair of trousers that had a pleat but wasn't too baggy and also had this obsession with deep cotton pockets. It was impossible to find trousers with deep cotton pockets. Also shirts that had soft interlinings. You know, everything had marks, suspense. All the shirts had very stiff shirts. And I thought, well, you know, give it a go. And I was very, very scared of doing it. And I thought, I haven't got what it takes. And I spent quite a lot of time meeting other entrepreneurs and realizing that actually, you know, you can do it if you really work hard and you have a clear vision and you listen to what other people say. So I started with eight products, eight menswear products, and there was a market, you know, there were enough people out there who thought, this is, this, this is quite fun. But it took a long time to find our feet. We didn't make a profit for 10 years. In fact, we, we lost a lot of money. Yeah, a lot of money.

[A]

Right. So that takes some guts. So you've said a lot here that I want to sort of ask about. So you talked about, you know, thinking as a young person about how to find your passion.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you, you did.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you continue to work in a way that you feel.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Excited about.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How would you suggest other people might try and surface that?

[B]

Well, I mean, there is a book that, that I love and I always recommend called Start with why Simon Sinek. And it's the most watched TED Talk. And it's basically, you know, digging deep in and being really honest with yourself, what you really, really enjoy speaking to your friends. And then, as I accidentally did, trying lots of different things. You know, I would say to young people, get holiday jobs, speak to people, make a list of all the things you think you might be interested in and speak to people in those professions and say, what's it really like? Talk me through your day. Would I be any good at it? And you can narrow it down. So, for example, when I started the business, I had other ideas that I thought. I thought about doing a travel business. And then I realized there wasn't much margin in that. And I thought, I always think it's a very, it's a good idea to be a small, a very small cog in a big wheel, you know, be a small fish in a big pond, whatever the cliche is. The great thing about clothing is it's a big market and, you know, you can have a tiny, tiny Tiny share of it and still be quite a big business. So that was a kind of coincidence, really. So going back to your question, try lots of different things, but be really, really honest about what you really love and you're good at. And I think self awareness, a terrible psychotherapy cliche, but self awareness is the key to happiness, fulfillment, and just accepting that you're not very good at certain things and better at others, and marrying that passion with your skills is. That's a nirvana. And I'm a great fan of Jim Collins. Good to great, which has his magical Venn diagram, which is on where book? Reggie's.

[A]

That book, John.

[B]

Coincidentally, it is here. I didn't bring it with me. On page 96, there is a famous Venn diagram, which I've. I've lived by. And one circle is what you are deeply passionate about. The other circle is what drives your economic engine. And the other circle is what you can be best in the world at.

[A]

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[B]

Number one, what you are deeply passionate about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Number two, what drives your economic engine. Number three, what you can be the best in the world at. Which, in shorthand, if you can find a job that you really love, that first. Second, a job that gives you the sort of money that you need to satisfy your material needs. And thirdly, what you can be really, really good at. And the hardest bit, in my view, is to work out what you really, really love, because we love lots of things. And what is the thing that combines that with what you can be really good at? And I don't make any great claims about my abilities, but broadly speaking, I really love what I do. It pays me the money that I want, and I've become quite good at it. It's taken me 30 years, but when I made the decision to set up the business, although we had hideous dramas, I never regretted it because, broadly speaking, I ticked these three boxes right that's, that's really helpful.

[A]

Yeah, Good to. Great was written some time ago. Yes, yes.

[B]

And it's still very.

[A]

Still helpful to all of us. So thank you for, thank you for highlighting that, Johnny. I mean your brand, you know, it's been described as sort of quintessentially British. You know, it's cheerful, it's bright, it's got personality. I mean meeting you and talking to you, I mean, I think a lot of it seems to reflect you. But you've also said that your family have been very influential. You.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Your daughters and your wife Sophie into sort of shaping the brand. Can you tell me a bit? Because you obviously started doing men's. Yes. But now you've moved and it's changed and evolved.

[B]

It's changing all the time. And that was. We started with menswear and very quickly we realized that men don't spend nearly as much money on clothes as women. Women, women, men kind of make do. I mean this shirt I'm wearing is three years old. How, how old's your shirt?

[A]

A bit less, but a year old.

[B]

Men make do for women. Women as a psychological need to wear, to wear new clothes and therefore the market is much bigger and a psychological need. Yes. To reinvent themselves every day. Yes. I think women really care about what they wear in a way that men don't. Men are quite happy to wear a uniform but women want to feel great about themselves and you know, what they look like is a very important part. My best metaphor is if you go to the men's gym.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What do men talk about?

[A]

Football.

[B]

Football.

[A]

Holiday training. Cars.

[B]

Yeah. Did they ever talk about clothes?

[A]

Not that I can recall.

[B]

So it, so it made me very sad because I love menswear. But it was, it was a self fulfilling prophecy because it was a much less profitable part of the business. So we, we, the moment we started womenswear, it was, it was immediately successful. More successful than menswear in monetary terms. And then you become, as a businessman, you have to listen to your customers. And I would say, you know, it's a terrible cliche, but it is, you know, it is, it's a cliche because it's true. Listening to your customers and giving them what they want is, you know, the most important thing and not being defensive, you know, they often tell you things you don't want to hear. So in my case they told me they weren't willing to. They're not willing to spend lots of money on menswear. In fact, when my sister in law one Christmas Bought her son three shirts from a competitor of mine. I thought that's it, your sister in law. I thought, you know, that's, that's, that's it, you know. And you know, I said what's wrong with my shirt? Oh, nothing. There is a bit expensive. I thought, well, if I can't get you as a loyal customer, what's the point?

[A]

Right, so how long?

[B]

And that was very, very. So we stopped menswear three years ago. It was becoming, it was self fulfilling because women's was more profitable. So we were spending more marketing money on women's wear.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, and so menswear died of death. But it was very, very sad for me. But that's quite a good example of your listening to information that you don't really want to hear. And this happens all the time. I'm constantly being proved wrong by our customers. They're very, very fickle in the nicest possible way, you know.

[A]

So what surprised you recently? Season or two and the last.

[B]

Good question. I was in a trade meeting yesterday and I was quite so I'd be careful. I want to give too much information to our competitors. But I was quite surprised at some how. Well, quite a couple of quite boring dresses were doing.

[A]

In your own range?

[B]

In my own range, yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I look at the top 10 and you know, I look at the top 10 every week and it was quite a marked change from the top 10amonth ago. I mean, you know, fashion's changed. You know, the great thing about clothes is it's a huge market. But the biggest problem by extension the same idea expressed in a different way is that there's masses of competition and our customers are absolutely riddled with choice. And if I look at our competitors 30 years ago, half of them don't exist now.

[A]

Yeah. And there's same in our business.

[B]

Yeah. So many new brands and that's, that's been wonderful in so many ways but it makes it hard in others to, to succeed.

[A]

So fashion changes as you said. I mean that makes running a fashion business.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Particularly sort of challenging in a way to keep not just abreast of fashion but ideally ahead of it.

[B]

So your next range whilst whilst retaining.

[A]

Your loyal customer base and your value.

[B]

Yes, I mean that.

[A]

How do you do that?

[B]

That I think it's, it's a very, very good question and it's extremely hard. I would say that we, we have quite a clear, I have quite a clear sense of what the company stands for. We have our rather pompous brand values which.

[A]

Well, tell Us what they are. Yeah, they are.

[B]

They're three. I was thinking, you know, you should do everything in threes. I agree. Uplifting is number one, which means unique, different, colorful, cheerful. We have a tagline which we use in America, which is happiness you can wear. Now, people might sort of, you know, cough into their coffee when they hear it because it's a bit. It's a bit naff.

[A]

You don't use it in the uk.

[B]

We do it. We do a bit, but it's. It's, you know, I. I think taglines, strap lines are actually. Can be a bit of a burden. And actually images on their own are good enough. But that is what uplifting means. Grounded is the second one, which means versatile, relevant for lifestyle, ethically made, good quality, good value. And stylish is the third. We order it in that way because it's easy to remember. Uggs. Uggs. Stylish is what is. It's a pretty naff word, but it means what you think it means. You know, incredibly flattering women. You know, the most important thing with CL. Clothing is that you. When she puts an item of clothing on, she feels fantastic. The clothes flatter her. The worst thing you can say to a woman or a woman can feel is a bit frumpy, a bit, you know, a bit tired. I know, and I hope this doesn't sound sexist, but I can tell when I see a customer or a model in our office putting on a really flattering dress, her whole body language changes. You know, Sophie, my wife, I'm sure you in your life, when we go out for supper, this awful thing every evening that I have to go through when she puts on an outfit and she says, actually, I don't like it very much, and she goes back and changes it. And I can tell by her body language that she feels a lot better wearing one outfit than she does another. And it has a transformative power. The right clothes.

[A]

So that's what you're seeking to do.

[B]

Yeah, but that's what. Stylish. Yes.

[A]

So you create these three.

[B]

Yes. I mean, we've had. We've had lots. We've had lots of. We've had lots of goes at it. But I, I, you know, lots of people challenging me, and I've been able to hold my ground. And actually, thank goodness, for the last five years, they've stood firm. So the answer, your question is be clear what you stand for, but also listen to your customers. So the example I gave of the rather boring the black dress that I was quite surprised by which doesn't really tick the uplifting box, but it's got some rather amazing details. It's still extremely flattering. And within those values, you have to be nimble and you have to look at. Know what are customers buying? What are they? What do they really love? The most important customer feedback you get is, you know, what they're buying.

[A]

What does that tell you about sort of social changes? It sounds to me that they're going for something more cautious, more subdued.

[B]

Well, I think I'm interesting, vibrant.

[A]

Is that saying that people are a bit down at the moment?

[B]

I think that is. That is a very good point. I made this point yesterday. You know, the huge economic uncertainty, America, Rachel Reeves, et cetera, you know, people are, I think, a little bit. A little bit scared. But I also think that, you know, sometimes we've. We've gone too far the other way and we, We've. We've dialed up the uplifting value too much and at the expense of flattering. And, you know, customers say, I don't. I don't want to. You know, I don't want to wear that bright dress when I go to work. It's a. The most important part of my job is with the team, is going through the sales, working out why things are selling and why other things are not, and then also looking at the trends, working out which trends are relevant, looking at the competition, looking at the catwalk, looking at what people are wearing on the streets. And I've got a fantastic team who. And together we work this out as best we can.

[A]

So that's fascinating to listen to. When I introduce you, Johnny, I introduced you as founder and creative director, not sort of CEO or chairman. This is the company you start. Can you talk me through what's happened and why that is? What's your preference here? Because it's interesting. I think.

[B]

I do think. I do think that entrepreneurs are terrible managers. I think by definition, an entrepreneur is quite, you know, wild, always looking at new ideas, quite dynamic. You're disruptive people. I mean, I don't deny I am quite disruptive. My family find me a nightmare at times because I'm not very steady. I'm a bit volatile, but that's the nature. And I wouldn't have done this if I didn't have that. And that makes you. And to be a good manager, you've got to be very measured. You've got to be very patient. I'm terribly impatient. I can't even. I've got an electric toothbrush. Each bit is 30 seconds. I can't stay. I'm always jumping around brushing my teeth. It's really weird.

[A]

I have something for me for that.

[B]

So a manager is, you know, is more steady. And so when I started the business, it was per. I had this fantastic chap who came in who about three years in, called Julian Granville, to whom I owe a lot. Julian pointed out to me I was a terrible CEO. I said, right, well, you can.

[A]

So you were CEO at this point?

[B]

I was CEO, he was finance director. And he then said, you're absolutely useless at this. I said, hands up. You're absolutely right, I'm useless and I hate it. Would you like to do it? He said, yep. So he then made me chairman and then about 10 years later, you're a useless chairman. I said, that's fine, you know.

[A]

So is he now chairman as well?

[B]

He's our chairman. He's fired. I've been fired twice by him, actually.

[A]

All right.

[B]

But it suited me because going back to Jim Collins, I wasn't a good chairman or a good CEO and so. But I'm very lucky because I'm majority shareholder.

[A]

So you own the business?

[B]

I own. I own, you know, the majority of the business. And I've been able to create a role that really suits me, which I'm. I'm better at, which is creative director.

[A]

Right. So I suppose you're. You, you've been smart if I. Well, they suggested by maintaining majority control.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So because a lot of entrepreneur. Entrepreneurs invite in sort of other investors.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In a situation like that, might have ended up being sort of exited their own business.

[B]

Yes. I mean, we've had a lot of investors and we do have. We've bought quite a lot of them out. We're able to buy them out. But we had some pretty wonderful investors who have believed in me and have supported me and the team. And we had one particularly unpleasant one who was. Tried to kick me out and that wasn't much fun. So I always say to people, don't take outside investment unless you really have to. And if you do take it, try your friends and family first. And also you should put. If you're not willing to put the majority of your own assets into the business, then you shouldn't be doing it.

[A]

Right. Majority of your own assets.

[B]

Yes. I'm not. I had to put my. A much over that 10 year period.

[A]

I guess you would have been.

[B]

We nearly went bust several times and my poor wife Sophie had to put up with me putting our family house on the line, which was quite scary for her because A lot of it was her money, and I'm eternally grateful to her for that. I, of course, was completely relaxed about it because I knew it was going to work, you know, but. And I would say to people, if.

[A]

So you knew it was going to work? It's quite a statement.

[B]

I knew it was going to work.

[A]

Why were you so confident?

[B]

Because the customers were there and it was up to me to sort out the problems. The problems were all of my making working, and I. I had confidence in my own ability. I was learning all the time, and I was a bit. I was a little bit scared, but. But, you know, it was a job. If it didn't work, my wife would probably left me, but I. I did have confidence. I was learning so much.

[A]

She might not have left you.

[B]

I mean, well, she, you know, she had every right to, but I, I.

[A]

Another job.

[B]

I mean, the thing that I always say and that I have been quite good at, although not as good as I could have been, is listening to other people, listening to my team giving me fairly frank feedback and telling me that, you know, listening to my team and listening to our customers has been quite an important part of my, you know, the, dare I say, the success.

[A]

There's a lovely quote I remember. The more you listen, the more the universe reveals itself.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which I quite like, just reminded me.

[B]

That's very good. That's very good. I mean, I think the. I mean, the other book I've loved is. Which everybody talks about now is the Growth Mindset, Carol, which is all about, you know, learning every. Every setback is an opportunity.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So what was the toughest decision you've had to make as a founder?

[B]

I think most of the toughest decisions involve people. I mean, firing people is horrible, but it has to be done. And I would say the toughest things have been getting rid of people who are actually quite good, which is not quite good enough. I think there's a big difference between a 9 out of 10 person and a 7 out of 10 person. I'm just reading the. Reed Hastings, the guy who set up Netflix, who says he can justify the. The difference between a good person and an okay person is. It's like. It's a multiple of thousands.

[A]

Thousands.

[B]

Yes. And actually, so I've had to get rid of some really nice people, and that's been hard.

[A]

I mean, and that's been your experience, too. The difference between a nine person, seven person.

[B]

Yes. I've got a lot of.

[A]

So what makes person a nine person?

[B]

You know, for people, it's a combination of. Of ability, temperament, energy. Somebody who is really good, fun to work with, who's really open, not defensive, really good, quick to learn, quick to admit mistakes naturally. I mean I put a lot of store in those qualities that you're not really allowed to interview and mention interviews, but all that stuff about their personality, their attitude, their background, things that you're not really meant to ask about. But I, I do a book called.

[A]

Put your mindset to work with a co author, Paul Stoltz.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm very interested in this. And, and you're describing a growth mindset. You mentioned Carol Dweck, obviously. Then there's a, there's another quote. Character is everything.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So it's sort of, it's, it's very important. And one thing we notice in our business, we have sort of high achievers lunches.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And we sort of ask everyone about their background, you know, how they started out in work. Yeah, yeah. And the people who there' consistent thread. All of them did jobs as teenagers.

[B]

Yes, I completely agree. In fact, one of my key interview questions is what holiday jobs have you done? Yeah. And if they can't think of one, they forget it. Yeah.

[A]

That was. They, they all work. Doing various paper rounds, working on ice cream bands, decorating. They all had things like that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which is interesting.

[B]

The other thing, although it's slightly sounds a bit prejudiced, but the. I'm a huge supporter of, of people whose parents were self made in anybody whose dad's a electrician plumber, because they know the importance of hard work.

[A]

Well, they'd have seen that and they've probably discussed business.

[B]

Exactly. Customers and not defensive difficulties. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean taking negative feedback is, you know, very hard for people. But it's, you know, I mean I've, I've, I've. I struggled with it at times, but I've got better at it because it, it just. So it makes life so much easier for, for the team and for you, actually.

[A]

Yeah. I was once asked to give a talk to staff at Amazon rather weirdly about feedback.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I said, I don't know why you've asked me because, you know, as a writer of books, you can look at feedback from your readers on Amazon very happily and I remember making them laugh because there was one negative comment on that book.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Put your mindset to work. Whether the reader said, you know, by the time I got to the end of this book, I wanted to lobotomize myself. But my question to the audience is, why did this person bother reading it to the end. But I've always thought two things about it. When someone's. When feedback is harsh. I mean, if you can make fun of light of it, yes, that's a good thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But also, in the end, it's just feedback.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. You know, other people like the book. Some people. You said it negatively, but it's just feedback.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you might think of it negatively or positively.

[B]

I had a sort of.

[A]

But it's very useful regardless.

[B]

I have an annual. I'm given feedback formally every year. And I had a terrible, terrible experience this Christmas because I. The coach asked six people I worked with what they thought about me.

[A]

Oh, you have a coach.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, so you have a 360.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

All right. Okay, tell me about this.

[B]

And I looked at the. I looked at the first five pages. Absolutely brilliant. I thought, oh, my God, this is wonderful. Johnny. He's very dynamic and he's great fun, and he's got a good eye and tons of energy, and he's really lovely to be around and couldn't be nicer. And I thought, oh, this is going very well. And then I turned the page, and then, oh, my gosh. He's very volatile. He's hard to predict. He has favorites. He catastrophizes. He can get very depressed about everything. He brings us down when he's in one of his bad moods. And that was, of course, you focus on the negatives.

[A]

And what did you do with that information?

[B]

Well, I went back to the coach. I said, I'm literally about to kill myself.

[A]

And she said, getting very depressed.

[B]

I get very depressed. She said, you're focusing on the whole. You're doing a pretty good job. But it was, you know, it slightly ruined my Christmas. Cause I got it before Christmas.

[A]

But actually, so advice for people doing this. Don't do it just before Christmas, I think.

[B]

Absolutely. But, you know, you need.

[A]

You said you do this every year.

[B]

Yeah, you need.

[A]

So was it different to the year before and your behavior changed?

[B]

It's pretty consistent. This is a very good new coach. And she's. She's more frank.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Than the previous one. And it's, it is pretty consistent. But I, I do check myself, you know, and when I, When I find myself catastrophizing, I, I, I pinch myself and say, hold on, you're catastrophizing. Stop it. You know that it's not nearly as bad as you think it is.

[A]

So would you encourage entrepreneurs to have coaches?

[B]

Oh, my gosh, yes.

[A]

Sounds like you've had a coach for some time.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I, I think, you know, any form of, anybody who can help you be more self aware is, is a good thing.

[A]

And how often would you meet with a coach and what'd you do?

[B]

Once a month.

[A]

Once a month.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I've had coaches in the past, I don't have one at the moment. I'm thinking maybe. Maybe.

[B]

Well, I think it's also to say, you know, what are your, what are your goals for this year? You know, how's it going? You know, how are you getting on with your team? They're all, by definitely. They're always going to be issues.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And even if you end up talking about something quite different that they, it's useful to have somebody to, who can help you look at life in a slightly different way.

[A]

So taking that information that you got before Christmas, has it moderated what you've done since? Have you made any progress or just carry in a way it's who you are.

[B]

They might say, they might say that I have got a bit better, but I, I'm not sure. I'm probably still pretty bad, but I am, I am more aware of it. And so when they say it, I, I'm, I'm quicker at checking myself.

[A]

Right, right. Yeah.

[B]

So you, you pick up, you can pick up in their body language when that, when you say something and you can feel. Because as the boss, you know, it's obviously hard for people to give you that feedback directly because they're a little bit, you know, he's the boss, you know, blah, blah, but so you have to be more sensitive to pick up on, on their feelings which they might be a bit scared to say directly. And so you're more sensitive to that, that, that behavior.

[A]

People are watching your behavior all the time.

[B]

Well, I'm, I'm watch, I'm, I'm trying to, if I feel something, you can tell. If you're vaguely sensitive, you can, you can tell how your messages are landing with the teeth. And, and I, I will all. I'm, I'm slightly more quick, I'm quicker now to ask people what did I, how did that, how am I doing? How did that come across? And that, because they trust me, I think they will tell me directly. I think you got that a bit wrong.

[A]

So who do you report to in this?

[B]

Well, I, I, that's a good question. I don't, I report to myself, but I, I have a pretty frank relationship with people who report to me and I hope they can tell Me stuff.

[A]

So you don't report to a CEO then?

[B]

No such.

[A]

So you're free range on creators?

[B]

I'm pretty free range, but I have a fantastic. The brand director, the creative director, the design director. Fantastic. And we have a very, very frank relationship. And there is a joke where I met James Dyson. I had to talk to him about this because he had exactly the same observation.

[A]

What was the joke?

[B]

Well, the James Dyson thing is that actually you've got to be able to give quick, negative and positive feedback with your team on a regular basis. But you can only do that if you know them well and you trust them and they trust you. And therefore all that stuff, that old fashioned stuff about going out to dinner with them, you know, getting a bit drunk with them, chatting, talking about their family, earning their trust and sharing vulnerabilities, you know, sometimes I overshare, but I feel if I share show vulnerability to my team, then they feel they can share vulnerability back. And as a result, if I said to my head designer, oh my God, that dress is completely revolting, she'll get the giggles. You know, we all laugh. Okay.

[A]

No one will be too.

[B]

No, no, no. It says no, there's. And, and they can say to me, if I say I feel very strongly for jumpsuits and they think that's a bad idea, they'll say that's a, that's a terrible idea.

[A]

Right, so you, so it's important to be able to exchange honestly.

[B]

But, but you can't do that unless you have that sort of, of close relationship.

[A]

Right. So you've worked with these people, I guess for many years.

[B]

And even the new ones, I try and break down barriers and you know, they love, they love hearing, you know, awful stories about my family. They really enjoy, you know, sort of hangovers or when I remember my. One of my middle daughter got her nipple pierced. I shared it with the company, you.

[A]

Know, sharing with everyone listening.

[B]

Yes. Okay. Well most, most, most young girls listen to it anyway. And I said it was a huge. Sort of ruined my holiday, but people loved it because it showed us a human side. To me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I'm, sometimes I think I'm, I overdo that.

[A]

Yeah, well that's, that's, that's a lot of fun for everyone because it makes the whole working environment more sort of.

[B]

Yes, but you have to be careful now about what you say, as you know.

[A]

Yeah. So I'm interested. You've really been growing your business in America.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

And you know, that's the sort of holy grail. For lots of British businesses. There's obviously an enormous market and masses of potential, but notoriously tough.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And significantly different.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So how have you gone about that and how's it going?

[B]

Well, dare I say it is going well. We noticed about 20 years ago that we had lots of American customers who'd found us, you know, organically and we thought, thought well this is worth a try because you say it's, the market is five times the size, the GDP per capita is double Rs, they work much harder and they spend lots more money that literally double what our English customers spend on clothes a year. And so we thought we'll give it a go. But we didn't have any money. And I said right when we started to make a decent profit, which wasn't until 2000, 2003 I think I said let's, let's test it. But there are two rules. Number one is I do not want to be too involved in this. I don't want it to distract from my day job. And the other rule was we'll limit our losses to £100,000. I said if we lose more than £100,000 we'll can it because we don't want to bet the farm on this because I've nearly gone bust twice before and I didn't want to, didn't want America to drag us down. So we did it in a very, very low key way. And one of the mistakes that people make, I mean I touch wood because it could happen to us is that they, they set up expensive offices, they, they go to New York, they get some swanky place, they hire Americans are paid a lot more than they hire really expensive people. So we did it on a real shoestring and we were you know, staying in shitty hotels.

[A]

Where did you start though? Which part?

[B]

Oh well we, because it was direct, you know, it was nationwide. But it soon became clear that we were effectively selling to the, to the Democrat states. Although careful, we now have as many Republicans we Democrats but it was so the coasts. California is our biggest market. Right? California, New York, New Jersey, all the sort of eastern seaboard. And now we're, now we're nationwide. But what we noticed is that they love British national and they loved our, our style. You know that there are one. What we notice now is in fact the best selling styles in America. Also the best thing styles in the UK and interesting Germany is slightly different because Germans they don't like color as much as the American. The big difference between the markets is that America are more Americans are more formal and they, they dress up more. They go to the, you know, 6% of our customers, it's now, I think now 4 was at one stage, 60% of our customers went to church every, every day, every, every dinner, every week. You know, they go to the country club. They, they, they are more formal people. They don't do grunge.

[A]

In the old days, it would have been the other way around. Probably.

[B]

Probably. Yeah. And they don't kind of hate themselves in the way that, you know, they, there's no sort of shame about being colorful and standing out. In England, people, people don't want to stand out so much, but in America they love standing out, you know.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so, and we basically, we've, we, we. It's exactly the same as the UK in the marketing, but it's been, it's been a question of, of really listening to what they want. And you know, it, it's not as different as you think it is actually. Just they have more money.

[A]

So logistically, do you have a big.

[B]

Warehouse in Pittston, which is. The other rule was that we had to be, we had to be able to get backs and forwards from our warehouse without too much trouble. So it's, it's a three hour car drive from New York, it's in Pennsylvania and they're the most lovely people and we, that's all we have. We don't have any other offer.

[A]

And everything shipped from there?

[B]

Yes, some stuff is shipped from the uk. It's causing us a few problems, but with tariffs. Tariffs, yeah.

[A]

So what's he put tariffs on that are effective?

[B]

So we, we, you know, sadly, there is no domestic clothing industry in either the UK or the US So everything is made in Far East, India, North Africa, Portugal, Turkey. You know, we have quite a few. But he doesn't believe in free trade.

[A]

So that's putting the costs up for you.

[B]

Putting our costs up, which we're having to absorb. Yes.

[A]

Right. So the tariffs will vary with those different locations and that adds complexity as well.

[B]

The real problem with Mr. Trump is that his constant changes of mind business, as you know, you can deal with many. Well, you can't deal with uncertainty. So my poor buying team have been charging around the world trying to find new factories in, in response to his tariffs. And then he changed his mind again. So, you know, we put lots of production away from China to India and now he slapped tariffs of 50% on India and you know, it's, it's difficult to, to navigate. Sounds very difficult, but it's still A huge market. We're opening our first store in America in November. And that's.

[A]

Where's that going to be?

[B]

It's going to be in Atlanta.

[A]

Right.

[B]

In Georgia. Retail space is much cheaper in Americans in the uk and there are. Is it, you know, if we opened a shop in the uk, half of the Target market that walked past would have heard of us, whereas in the U.S. it's only 9%. So we've got a 91% awareness deficit in the U.S. so, you know, we have a higher chance of getting people into the store that aren't existing customers.

[A]

Is that why you're doing it? Yes, It's a different business model.

[B]

It's, it's basically.

[A]

Do you imagine having lots of st.

[B]

Yes. If, if it works, we will have more. Yes, definitely.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's the idea. Complete. It's, you know, there's stores in. No, we had some. No, didn't work. We, we.

[A]

I remember seeing one or two.

[B]

We made every mistake in the book and closed it down a couple years ago.

[A]

But you think it might work there. But what. Because the costs are.

[B]

Costa. We've learned a lot more about how to do it. We've got a better team. We got. The range is a bit better. We're clear about what, what, what's going to draw people in. I have also been very involved in the design, which could be a bad thing, but in the one thing, I, I had a pretty big hiccup with a chief executive a couple years ago that didn't work. And the big lesson I, I, I learned from that was you're either in or you're out. And now I'm fully in.

[A]

What do you mean personally?

[B]

Personally. And, and so, so anything I do.

[A]

What you sort of delegated a bit.

[B]

So I delegate an awful lot. People don't want to believe this, but I have very little involvement in it. Finance, merchandising, operations, logistics. But design, I have a lot of involvement. And so now psychologically, I feel you need to be. You're all over everything or you're not at all. So I get offended by bad taste. And if I see anything that I think is dodgy, even if it's a button or a font in an ad or a color of catalog cover.

[A]

So you're all over the detail.

[B]

I'm all over it. And with the shop, one of the things that I've learned with my coach is that you need to be strong. And one of my problems as a person is that I was quite very well, my parents are very trusting Good people and they trusted everybody and I was too trusting a person. And so when somebody sort of pushes back on me, I kind of, oh, fine, you know what you're doing. And we had this chap, very nice guy, and he pushed back and I lost, he, I lost my kind of self worth because he bullied me. And now. And this happened with, well, your CEO did that. Yes. And this happened with our shop in London where the design did stuff I didn't really like, but I thought, oh, they knew better. And I, I rolled over. And once you roll over on the small things, you roll over for everything. That's my experience. So now I'm saying, you know, I, you know, I'm driving everybody bonkers because I'm saying, no, that the font for the opening hours on the door is wrong and we want to redo that. So I'm now, you know, I can.

[A]

Say you're all in or all out. You're all in.

[B]

I'm all in. Yeah.

[A]

Essentially you said that you felt bullied. I mean, you're the founder of a company, it's got your name on the door and that still happens. It can happen to anyone.

[B]

Yeah, it's very, very. And particularly, I think we British, we're quite sort of, you know, we're quite polite. We want to be liked, we don't want to make a scene and, you know, that's dangerous.

[A]

So how did you extricate yourself from that?

[B]

Well, he, we, he, he left, left, right. It was, you know, the numbers were, were really bad. And he, you know, it was very unfortunate. And he, you know, he, he was a nice guy. He went, he went happily. Well, not happily, but he went. And then I, I, you know, we came back in two years ago, we lost 15 million quid. We were losing 50, 000 quid a day.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So it was quite painful.

[A]

And you've corrected that.

[B]

Corrected that, yeah.

[A]

So that, make that, that illustrates your point of a nine or a seven.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Pretty.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. And if you were to make this chat very nice guy, very plausible, I.

[A]

Mean, so you hired him, I guess. What, you hired him.

[B]

Well, I mean, you know more about harrying than I do, but we know.

[A]

We, we all make mistakes.

[B]

So we have three prongs to our recruitment. Number one is interview. A third interview, a third live tests and a third, references.

[A]

Right, yeah, so that was.

[B]

And, and in this case, yeah, I don't want to go into too much.

[A]

Detail, but not every, not every high works out clearly.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And that can happen at every level.

[A]

In a business.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. But we're much better at hiring than we used to be because we follow.

[A]

These and you're giving that more attention.

[B]

And the live test is a particularly useful indicator actually of somebody's ability.

[A]

What do you test them with?

[B]

Well, it depends on the role. But I always find people are so good at, you know, people are getting better and better at interviewing and they, they submit these incredible portfolios and it's very hard to wade through this, you know, self aggrandizing. Aggrandizing for a designer.

[A]

What would you test them?

[B]

So we would lock them in a room. We would say, okay, here is the brief. It's a spring season. Here is the mood board. It's, you know, informal end use design. 10 dresses in the next hour.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And a lot, literally there's a job.

[B]

And a lot of people can give you these amazing portfolios that they haven't done themselves. I hired this woman from a brand you'll have heard of. She was incred. Her portfolio was amazing. She was American, she was great. She just talk, talk the talk. Completely useless because she, somebody else had done the portfolio for her.

[A]

So this entry, what I mean, quite a lot of that is, is authentic. That's the right word. Finding out if that's the authenticity through the references. The live test.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

When the interview, you get to know them. Them, but to an extent. But those other two.

[B]

I always think when you interview people, it's not just a question of what you think is, you know, get people throughout the organization to meet them because, you know. Yes, I definitely. Women are brilliant. They have a sixth sense that men.

[A]

Don'T always have, well, assessing people. Right.

[B]

They, you know, they can spot a rotter quicker than a bloke can, in my view.

[A]

Right. That's your experience.

[B]

Well, I have three daughters. My wife is pretty good. She'll just spot something that I don't see spot.

[A]

Right. Okay. Well, that's very interesting.

[B]

Yeah. I would definitely not have a male only interviewing board. I definitely have 50. 50 at least. Male, female.

[A]

Yeah. Well, that's a good idea.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, but that's, that's an interesting observation from your experience.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the first shop opens in Atlanta. When?

[B]

November.

[A]

Oh, very soon. Fantastic.

[B]

We've got a, we're taking a London bus out there. We've painted a London bus. We've got this company livery which is pink and GRE stripes. And we're taking that out there where we're giving everybody lots of tea. Big discussion yesterday what type of tea. They didn't have. I'm a great tea snob and I. I can't bear tea bag.

[A]

You like the detail, John, so you've got to get the right one.

[B]

I'm.

[A]

You don't like tea bag.

[B]

I can't bear tea bags.

[A]

So you're going to have to have.

[B]

Yeah, and this is really. We've got to take this.

[A]

But then you have to have all the little things to put them in, don't you?

[B]

So that's become a big logistical. Because they don't have their.

[A]

In America and what do they call those things? Strainers.

[B]

But there's also that sort of ball you can put the leaves in. And anyway, perhaps you should sell them.

[A]

In the shop as well.

[B]

We are. Well, watch this space. We are doing a collaboration with a, with a, a famous mug brand that we're going to sell in the shop. We're, we're, we're taking my. We're doing a collaboration with some books. We've got artists. We're doing quite a few things. I always think that you're setting up a business. Well, you know this as well as I do that. You have to throw a lot of, forgive my language, shit at the wall and you don't know what's going to work and just see what sticks. You know, marketing, you know, no amount of theory can help. I mean, it's useful, but it's by no means. You just have to try lots of different things and to see what works.

[A]

Aggressive trial and error, I was once told.

[B]

Well, that's exactly right.

[A]

See what sticks.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So that's your strategy then?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But you must have a plan in place you. That works. You've got to roll out.

[B]

Correct. Yeah, but the issue is, you know, do we spend lots of money on billboards or do we spend lots of money on doing customer evenings in the shop?

[A]

So what have you decided to do?

[B]

We'll try everything.

[A]

You're going to do a bit of both?

[B]

Everything.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, I wish you every success. So what, what, what, what other future plans?

[B]

Well, that, that is the, that is a big one. I mean one, one thing we did, we, we sell in a lot of other countries but it's, you know, each country has its vagaries and therefore, you know, to do well, you have to spend a lot of time working out each. Each market's needs and, and, and oddities and therefore you should concentrate on the big one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we know, for example, we sell in Australia and France, but you know, they're the French people don't really like British fashion and they don't really like color. So that wasn't a great success. But it's. They still got customers there, but it's much better. I mean the American, the America, if.

[A]

You can crack America.

[B]

Well, I mean, what was the thing? I mean, Dara said the issue with America was coping with our success. You know, we, we were inundated with. With orders and we were, you know, playing catch up. You know, that was.

[A]

So that's your focus.

[B]

Yeah, so. So America's our focus and, and we. You continue to concentrate on. On the UK and Germany as well. But US retail, we have got other things that I, you know, that slightly secret of other product areas we might go into. But it's a huge market. Clothing.

[A]

It is, yeah. Well, I mean, looking sort of into the future a bit for the fashion industry. These new technologies. AI.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How things are sort of.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Presented to customers, how that technology might be applied.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Do have any final thoughts or observations? Well, we future entrepreneurs, I suppose we.

[B]

Are embracing, we are trying AI and I think there will be. I mean the most extraordinary thing is you can now, as you know, AI can create models. They can look at your existing models that you're using and they can then come up with some fake people to look like your models. We can do some of our photography, but it still requires. The skills will be transferred to other areas. But we are already using AI with some of our analysis, figure numbers analysis and of course we have to try these things in the same.

[A]

So do you think people will quite happily be buying dresses off AI models in the future?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Bat an eyelid, probably.

[B]

Yes, I'm sure they will be because you can.

[A]

It's just how the dress is presented.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So that's not good news for models, is it? I suppose not good news for models.

[B]

But you know, the skills will. I mean, you know, you never know do. It's rather like when the Internet came along, you know. Oh my. And you know, our calls. We used to have this massive call center.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know, so that job. That job went. But those, you know, there are still.

[A]

You probably employ more people now than you did back then.

[B]

Well, exactly. You know, it's, you know, it's just, it's just growth and progress. Yeah, that's not a very good answer, but yeah, but we are, we are trying AI and who knows? The key thing is to be nimble and to stick to what you're good at.

[A]

Are there any other thoughts you'd like to share with that would be Fashion entrepreneur, Johnny. To wrap up, have a go by the sound of things.

[B]

The final anybody who wants to set up a business. I do think there's an awful lot you can learn by testing the idea with your friends, you know, asking them what they think, listening, you know, testing the idea of potential customers before committing. I remember one of the ideas I had before, before I set up the clothing business was to sell pictures and prints. I came across a company that was selling reproductions of antique architectural drawings to hotel chains. I thought, this is a brilliant idea. It's effectively you're photocopying an old picture, huge markup. And I said, we could try this retail audience. And I created a focus group and I showed it to 12 women who I thought might be potential customers. Not one liked it. And, you know, I do think that a lot of people get obsessed about the wrong things when they're setting up a business. The most important thing is, is this a product or a service that people are willing to pay for and change their behavior? And if you haven't got that, then you haven't got a business and everything else.

[A]

And you can find out a lot about. About that simply by asking.

[B]

Yes, yes, absolutely.

[A]

And listening to what you have to say.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I think that's a very good place to conclude our conversation. Thank you very much, Johnny.

[B]

Thank you very much.

[A]

And full of interesting thoughts and hope.

[B]

Too many and not too many indiscretions?

[A]

No, no, no. Not as far as I'm. It's free speech in the studio.

[B]

Oh, we love that.

[A]

We love it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm going to ask you two concluding questions, which I ask everyone.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And the first, first is because we love Mondays at Reid. What is it that gets you up on a Monday morning?

[B]

I might burst into tears, actually. I love the people I work with. I love making, creating lovely things.

[A]

I. I can feel your strength of emotion. There's nothing wrong with bursting into tears at all. That came over beautifully, so thank you. And the last question, question is from my interview book, why you. Where do you see yourself in five years time?

[B]

Well, this is a question that my wife asked me. And the awful thing is I so enjoy what I do that I. If I. If I'm still getting it right, I will still be here. The moment I start choosing terrible clothes and annoying people a lot, then I will stop. I think what I need to get better at is more holiday. But I say to my wife when she has a go at me, well, if I'm more than three days with you, alone in the kitchen. You want to kill me. So in fact, you'd much cry. I was in the office. Anyway, I don't know whether.

[A]

Nicholas, I hope you remain alive and well, gainfully employed and enjoying yourself in five years time.

[B]

No, I mean, it's lovely. I'm so lucky to be able to do something that I enjoy and that I'm quite good at.

[A]

I agree. Thanks so much for coming to talk.

[B]

Thank you very much.

[A]

Thanks, Johnny. Thank you, Johnny, for joining me on All ABOUT business. I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reid, Johnny and Bowdoin, all links are in the show notes. See you next time.

[B]

It.