← James Reed: all about business
James Reed: all about business
51. Celebrity Traitors finale week: The REAL big dog! Stephen Lambert, OBE - Producer and Founder of Studio Lambert
01:12:03
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- [00:00]
James Reed
Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. Television is something we all enjoy, but few of us get to see how the shows we love actually come to life. My guest today is Steven Lambert, founder of Studio Lambert, the production company behind shows like the Traitors, gogglebox and Squid Game. The Challenge. We'll be talking about how he's built a creative and successful independent production company. What goes into making formats that connect with audiences around the world, and why encouraging risk taking and innovation is so important in tv. Well, today on All About Business, I'm delighted to welcome Stephen Lambert to our studio. Stephen is the chief executive of Studio Lambert. Now, you might not have heard of Studio Lambert, but I'm sure you'll have heard of Studio Lambert's output. This is a big time of year because Stephen and his team produce the TV series Traitors, which is topping the polls. They also produce Gogglebox and Race across the World, which is coming soon. Celebrity Race across the World and a lot of other shows, including Squid Game, the Challenge. So Traitors and Race across the World are the top performing shows on the BBC, I believe, Stephen and Squid Game. The Challenge was a top performing show on Netflix at one point. And you've recently returned from Los Angeles with an Emmy and been awarded an OBE by the King. So this has been a pretty busy period and I'm really looking forward to talking to you about how all this came to pass and how you do it. But should we begin at the beginning, Stephen? I mean, you are the premier TV producer in Britain at the moment. But how did you start out and how did it begin?
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Stephen Lambert
Thank you, James. It's a pleasure to be here. Well, when I was at university, I thought I probably wanted to work in television, but I didn't really know how to get into television. So I was given a grant to start a PhD at Oxford at Nuffield College. And I thought, well, that's good. I'll, I'll write about television as well, my PhD subject. And when I was there, they said, oh, you should talk to this man, Anthony Smith. He was, he had been at Oxford, but he was then running the British Film Institute. And I went to see Anthony and he said, oh, you're Just the person we're looking for. We're looking for somebody to write a book about how Channel 4 came about. It's about to launch. It's going to launch in about 18 months. Could you write it quickly? And then it could come out on the day of the launch of the channel. This was in November 1982. And this, you might think, why would you write a book about a channel that hasn't started?
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James Reed
Yeah, I'm thinking that, Steven. So. Yeah, go on. So why, what was going on?
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Stephen Lambert
Because really it was a history about the ideas of British broadcasting, British broadcasting policy. Because when, when radio began, the, the, the government at the time had an inquiry in the twenties, and they looked at American television, American radio, of course, it wasn't television at this point. They looked at American radio and they said, we don't want that. It's highly competitive. It seems very, very tacky and so competitive, so un. British.
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James Reed
Okay.
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Stephen Lambert
And they found this, this wonderful man, John Reith.
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James Reed
Right.
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Stephen Lambert
And they decided, no, we're not going to do that. We're going to have the BBC. And the BBC would inform, entertain and, and, and, and, and in fact, the entertainment bit was always regarded as sort of an unfortunate necessity.
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James Reed
Right.
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Stephen Lambert
Even in the 60s, that was.
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James Reed
In the tacky end that was attacking.
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Stephen Lambert
Even in the 60s, light entertainment was referred to as ground bait. It would be something you'd scatter out there to get people to start watching or listening and then they would round.
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James Reed
Bait.
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Stephen Lambert
Ground bait. Like when you go fishing.
- [04:17]
James Reed
Right, okay.
- [04:18]
Stephen Lambert
Anyway, so that was the BBC. And then after the war there was a whole campaign because obviously television had launched just before the war and then it started up again after the war, but it was just one television station on, on the BBC. And then there was a whole campaign. No, we need to have competition. And the Conservative governments in the, in the, in the 1950s bought into that idea and they launched ITV. But at that point, if you wanted to have a good signal across the country, you could only have two channels. Then in the 60s, they had a sort of upgrade in the sort of technology and they were able to have four channels. And everybody thought those two extra channels would be competitive to ITV and BBC, that there'd be more competition, because that was the sort of idea that had come into, into play in the 50s. But actually, again, things didn't work out that way. People argued, no competition leads to a kind of chase to the bottom. And the BBC argued for a complementary channel, a ch. A channel that would do the opposite of what everybody else was doing. And they managed to get BBC2 as this complementary channel.
- [05:29]
James Reed
So when did that happen?
- [05:30]
Stephen Lambert
That happened in 64. David Attenborough was the first channel controller. And then everybody thought, well, what about the fourth channel? And they didn't quite know what to do with the fourth channel. There was an idea that it would be a competitive channel to the others, but then people thought, maybe not. And then in the end the authority for independent television said, no, maybe it should be also complimentary, so ITV should have it. And just as that was about to happen in the 70s, there was an argument put out and it gained traction. It said, one of the problems with television is that all the programs are being made within the institutions. Either they're all made within the BBC or they're all made within itv. It is a very funny idea. I mean, if you look at publishing, they are argued, you don't have authors employed by publishers. Publishers are able to pick and choose and they that they take the best talent for that moment rather than having everybody on staff. And so the idea of independent television was independent production was created and this argument won the day eventually. So that by the early 80s, or in fact the late 70s, the Thatcher government had come in and they were convinced. Everybody thought that this idea of independent television and Channel 4 would be one that she wouldn't like, but she did because she was sold on the entrepreneurial argument. This would create small businesses that would thrive and would challenge the kind of sort of orthodoxy of everybody being employed by either the BBC or by itv. And that's how independent television production came about. And the person who was running Channel 4 at the time, a man called Jeremy Isaacs, really championed that because although the ITV companies made quite a few of the programs for Channel 4 when it launched, he was determined that no, the independence would play the biggest role. And it was so successful and the independent production programs were so well regarded and the argument that this entrepreneurial sort of spirit should be encouraged, that a few years later the government required the BBC and ITV to take a minimum of 25% of their programs have been independent producers. And this really started to lead to the growth of independent production. And then it was dramatically accelerated in the early 2000s when we all campaigned the government and said, look, it's great that we exist, but we've really only got these few buyers, ITV, BBC and Channel 4, and we're in a kind of surf like relationship with them. They take all the rights, they don't give us much money to make the programs as a sector. We're not able to make much of a profit. And so nobody's actually investing in our sector. And there was a change to what's called the terms of trade. And these changes led to the fact that the independents would then keep the rights to their programs. They would be able to exploit them and sell the tape, the finished programs or the formats to their shows around the world. And they would be able to maybe give some of that to the broadcaster. But the majority would stay with the independent producers. This transformed the bottom lines of independent production. It went from an average of like 2 or 3% to something closer to 10 or 12%. And it meant that money came into the sector and the, the companies, the independent production companies became much more muscular and they were able to kind of back their own ideas and become a proper sector.
- [09:19]
James Reed
Well, you, I mean the difference between 2 or 3% and 10 and 12 is huge obviously and it's barely a viable business at 2 or 3%. So I can see. So your original, original research, when you were preparing this book or PhD thesis, sort of was exploring this. It was opening up of the market. Yes, early sight of this. In a way I was, I was.
- [09:40]
Stephen Lambert
Because I was, I was interested in how those ideas of kind of monopoly BBC from the 20s and 30s, how that had evolved to the point where this idea of encouraging entrepreneurial independent producers came about and it was embodied with the launch of Channel 4. Obviously the book stopped at that point, but my interest in the subject continued.
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James Reed
Yeah, clearly, clearly. And, but you then worked at the BBC, didn't you? For quite a long period. Tell me about that a little bit, Stephen. What were you doing?
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Stephen Lambert
Well, after, after writing the book, I was able to use it as a, as a way to get into the BBC. It's slightly unus way because I joined the BBC Secretariat, which is the body that serves the board of governors and the board of management as a kind of research assistant and. But once you're inside the BBC it's easier to move and within three months I got a move to the, the bit, the documentaries, the television documentaries department where I stayed for the next 16 years. I mean it was a very exciting place to be. I ended up becoming a producer director of documentaries all around the world, often in war zones. And then eventually I became an executive in charge of commissioning programs, documentary programs.
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James Reed
And sort of so many, many of our listeners would have seen some of these programs, I'm so sure. I mean, just share two or three, I mean some of the most high profile documentaries or stories that you brought to us.
- [11:05]
Stephen Lambert
Well, I was doing a mixture of things. I mean, as a filmmaker I was often in sort of troubled areas making films about, I don't know, the Tamil Tigers. I was the only person to interview the Tamil Tiger leader in his hideaway in the, in the, in the jungles of North Sri Lanka. I would make a film about, I don't know, British mercenaries who were working with the Croatian army during the breakup of Yugoslavia or the South African police during the time that Mandela had just been released. And they were very worried about what was going to happen to them, the white South African policemen. But then as an executive, I looked after the BBC2's main documentary strand. It was called Modern Times. And I also did some of the first docus that we did a docuserap called Clamp Campers about parking wardens. And we did.
- [11:56]
James Reed
We did a soap, you call it. I like that.
- [11:59]
Stephen Lambert
Yeah. There's a half hour, very popular BBC one documentary shows that sort of started in the sort of early 90s.
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James Reed
This sounds, I mean, this sounds like sort of early nascent. What became reality tv? Was that what you'd say?
- [12:17]
Stephen Lambert
Yes. I mean the whole history of observational documentary and what people call reality TV is. Is they're two things that sort of sit side by side and they feed off each other. I mean, they're essentially both interested in capturing natural dialogue, people talking to each other in real, in present tense situations rather than telling a story after the event. And reality television, or what we often now call unscripted because it sort of captures everything. But reality television came about, but both of them sort of benefited enormously from the development of lightweight cameras, you know, particularly the 16 millimeter lightweight film camera and the separate sound recording. And it enabled you to be incredibly portable in a way that, you know, for years one wasn't able to be. And reality television sort of properly started, I suppose in America with the American family in the early 70s and then onto the the Real World, which was a big hit on mtv. They were very similar in many ways to what I'd call observational documentary, which is what we were doing in the documentaries department at the BBC, but perhaps with a stronger entertainment sort of imperative.
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James Reed
I think the educated form was going more towards entertain, definitely, which is a.
- [13:47]
Stephen Lambert
Journey that's continuing also creating the situation. I think the big difference between there's one kind of observational television where you're observing things that are happening that would be happening anyway.
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James Reed
Right.
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Stephen Lambert
And there is another one where you create a situation which is great from.
- [14:07]
James Reed
A. I'm thinking.
- [14:10]
Stephen Lambert
When I first When I left the BBC after 16 years, I joined a relatively small independent production company called RDF Television or RDF Media and, and suddenly realized we weren't going to be able to build a business unless we could create returning programs. And because what do you mean by returning program? Well, television is sort of made up of programs that are. Either they happen and that's it. They can be a single program, you watch that program that that night, or they can be like a limited series that they will be three or four, maybe even six episodes, but that's it. They're not conceived and they're not designed in such a way that the whole thing comes back again later or even less than a year.
- [14:58]
James Reed
So this was key in your mind for a business.
- [15:00]
Stephen Lambert
You can't run a business. Or it's very hard to run a business. Some people do it. But it's really hard to run a business that is trying to turn itself into a real business just based on documentaries or non returning programs. What you need to know is that you're creating a whole catalog of programs that are coming back year after year so that you, you, you know that your overheads are going to be covered largely by those returning programs. And all your energy is going into creating new programs so that you can grow and take on more. Build your portfolio and build your portfolio. So you know, we.
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James Reed
What was your first returning program?
- [15:42]
Stephen Lambert
It was a program called Faking It.
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James Reed
Faking It.
- [15:45]
Stephen Lambert
And it's probably the program I still love the most. In many ways that's very famous. It, well, it won the BAFTA two years in a row and it was, it was much loved. What was interesting about it. And it goes back to that point about explaining the difference between filming things that are happening anyway and filming things that you've created. And so in Faking it was actually my wife's idea. She said, I said we need some ideas for formats. And she said why don't you do Pygmalion for real? That was it. That was all she said. I had to work out how to interpret that.
- [16:19]
James Reed
Yeah, that's good. I like that.
- [16:21]
Stephen Lambert
And then I had to persuade Channel 4 to commission it, which they did as a, as a one off and we as a pilot, but with the intention that if it worked we'd make more of them. And it was essentially an idea where somebody would be taken from one walk of life and they would be trained over a month. They would live with a mentor. That was amazing. I can't believe these people would actually let these people come and live in their homes.
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James Reed
So the relationship with the real deal.
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Stephen Lambert
They would live with the real deal. So the. The first one that was. We did actually do one where a girl, a shop assistant, had to fake it as. As a high society kind of lady.
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James Reed
A real Pygmalion.
- [17:01]
Stephen Lambert
A real Pygmalion. That was okay. It really took off when we did the second one, and we took a quite a slightly delicate Oxford graduate undergrad. I can't remember which one he was now. And he had to fake it as a bouncer.
- [17:15]
James Reed
And I'm already wishing I'd seen that.
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Stephen Lambert
It's a great program.
- [17:21]
James Reed
Can you find it on YouTube still?
- [17:23]
Stephen Lambert
You can find it on. On Channel 4. All the faking episodes are on there.
- [17:30]
James Reed
Whatever.
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Stephen Lambert
It's called Iplayer. It's not there. Iplayer. It's their Channel four player.
- [17:34]
James Reed
Yeah.
- [17:35]
Stephen Lambert
And that episode was called Alex the Animal.
- [17:38]
James Reed
All right. Okay. Well, that's one to look up everyone.
- [17:40]
Stephen Lambert
He. He had. And he. He had to learn how to fake it as a man, sir.
- [17:46]
James Reed
Yeah.
- [17:47]
Stephen Lambert
And what they would then do, they would have to then take part in a competition at the end where they would be competing against experienced practitioners in whatever they was doing, real bounces. And there would be a panel of judges who would be asked to judge between them, and they would pick whoever they thought was the best bouncer or best. We. We had a burger flipper, had to become a Top Chef. I mean, there were so many. Then at the end, we would say to the judges, oh, by the way, if we asked you and told you rather, that one of the people that taking part in that competition only learned to do this skill four weeks ago, would you be surprised? And they go, yeah, I can't believe anybody could do that. And could you spot that person? And very often they couldn't. And that was success.
- [18:37]
James Reed
So this. This is inspiring for anyone who wants to learn a new skill in life or, you know, transferable skills in work and all sorts of applications.
- [18:44]
Stephen Lambert
Absolutely.
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James Reed
So it's entertaining and inspiring.
- [18:47]
Stephen Lambert
Exactly. And it was. That's why the program was so loved, because it showed you at its very purest, the kind of teacher, pupil relationship. And because they had lived together and because we would get the mentor to be watching a live feed of the competition and they would be so wrapped up. I mean, we had. We had a punk rocker who had to conduct the London Philharmonic, and he knew he couldn't read music at the beginning of the four weeks.
- [19:14]
James Reed
And did this succeed?
- [19:16]
Stephen Lambert
He succeed.
- [19:17]
James Reed
That's so good to know.
- [19:19]
Stephen Lambert
But because really, it was about nothing. Who cares whether they faked it? But the mentor didn't want to let down the pupil, the faker and the faker didn't want to let down the mentor. And they really cared about it.
- [19:32]
James Reed
Yeah, yeah. Well, that was a huge success. So you went, you started Studio Lambert, I think in 2008. Is that what was your first Studio Lambert project?
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Stephen Lambert
My first Studio Lambert project was a documentary about something to do with Michael Jackson and we got sued and went, oh, I thought we were about to.
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James Reed
Oh, so that didn't go so well.
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Stephen Lambert
I thought we were.
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James Reed
This is a good story because of the High Court.
- [19:59]
Stephen Lambert
And we thought, oh, this is going to be the end of the world. And then suddenly one of our hard working legal team found a piece of paper that completely destroyed the other person's case.
- [20:09]
James Reed
So you were on the cusp. So this is interesting because I obviously introduced you with all the successes you're currently sort of were producing, but you had a moment where you nearly lost the. You thought the business you'd only just started.
- [20:20]
Stephen Lambert
Yes. And this was a business we'd launched in 2008, which you probably remember was also the height of the financial crash.
- [20:27]
James Reed
Yes, Steve, and I certainly remember.
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Stephen Lambert
So it wasn't a great time to be launching a business and then to have this problem with our first show. But then we got a commission for a program called Undercover Boss which I.
- [20:41]
James Reed
Remember, I loved that program.
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Stephen Lambert
Well, Channel four ordered it. They ordered three. Oh my God, thank God we've got three episodes. Three episodes. A trial, three episodes. It was so hard to find any company that would play ball. And we found two. And then the third one we were about to start filming and they went bust.
- [21:02]
James Reed
Right.
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Stephen Lambert
And so we only actually made two of them in that first series. But. And this was the crucial bit from those two episodes we made for Channel 4, which did.
- [21:11]
James Reed
All right, so what were they, what were the stories?
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Stephen Lambert
One was a holiday company, right. The boss of a holiday kind of. So quite low rent holiday company. And the other was a boss of a steel works and going into. But.
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James Reed
And they went in undercover.
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Stephen Lambert
They went in undercover and they went in to do the job of some of a new entrant. And they would. And they would be learning what was really going on in the company. There had been a program on the BBC called Back to the Floor which was somewhat similar, but. But in that case the boss was known as the boss. Our big sort of twist was that our boss was unknown. Almost invariably the people never spotted who the boss was. Occasionally that happened and Then we'd make it part of the story. Anyway, what made it special, what transformed our business, was that we were able to cut what we call a sizzle reel, which is a piece of tape you use to sell an idea.
- [22:10]
James Reed
Sizzle reel.
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Stephen Lambert
Sizzle reel. It sizzles away. Out of the two British episodes that we'd made.
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James Reed
Yeah.
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Stephen Lambert
We went to Los Angeles where we'd started up an RLA office at the same time as launching in London, which was quite ambitious for a new company. And was. We were able to pitch it to the absolute top person at cbs who loved it so much that she bought the show in the room to make an American version.
- [22:35]
James Reed
Right.
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Stephen Lambert
We made the American version. They ordered a full series.
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James Reed
So was it easier to find companies in America?
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Stephen Lambert
It was still quite hard. It was still very hard. The first one, it's always the first one that said, yeah, because no one.
- [22:46]
James Reed
Knows what the format is exactly.
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Stephen Lambert
But there was a lovely man called Larry o' Donnell and his wife persuaded him, her name was Dare, and she dared him to. To do it. And Larry o' Donnell was the chief operating officer of Waste Management, which is a huge American company. And it was a great one for us because he was having to work the bins and do all the kind of deal. Deal with garbage. And the show was then tested by cbs. They have a big testing facility in Las Vegas and 2,000 people watch all their pilots and decide what to go forward with and what to do, what will be the next hit. It rated so well in the testing that the people back at CBS said, that can't be right. Test it again. And they tested it again. It came back even stronger. At which point they made the decision to launch Undercover Boss in the most coveted slot on American television, which is the slot immediately after the Super Bowl. Immediately after the super bowl, the audience is a hundred million viewers. Now that.
- [23:55]
James Reed
So your new production. And you suddenly found itself with.
- [23:58]
Stephen Lambert
Suddenly with this amazing slot.
- [24:00]
James Reed
Yeah, but this is a pair of good ideas.
- [24:02]
Stephen Lambert
Exactly.
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James Reed
Well executed. I mean, this is what's happened that you. Obviously, it was a great.
- [24:06]
Stephen Lambert
No, no, it was great, but it was still incredibly exciting. And also, when. When you're launching a show after the. You're worried about two things. One, you don't want the game to be a kind of walk away so that everybody loses interest and stops watching. But you don't want to be so close that it goes into extra time because then your show's not going to start until 11 or 11:30 at night. This one, fortunately, was exciting, but it was finished on time. And we inherited this enormous audience. Some of the audience obviously pale. There's an after the game kind of discussion show for 20 minutes. But basically we inherited 40 million viewers and held them for the next hour power, making it the most popular post super bowl show that there had been for years and years and years and probably ever since then. And it meant Undercover Boss was this huge hit that we then made many, many episodes of and gave sort of life to our company.
- [25:03]
James Reed
Be harder to do now, I think, because people know what their bosses look like because of social media and stuff.
- [25:08]
Stephen Lambert
That's true. I think that's what we were very good at. Coming up with reasons for were. I mean, we were disguised the bosses and we would trick people into thinking we were doing. We might have two people there. We were filming you. We were quite good at making it hard for people to realize. But you're right, I think social media would make it probably harder.
- [25:27]
James Reed
So that's. So that's fantastic. So that's how you began. So fast forward, you've done Goggle box. Where did that idea come from?
- [25:37]
Stephen Lambert
Well, happened in 2000. In the early 2000s. No. So in 2000 and after a few years, a colleague of mine who's now my partner and chief creative officer, Tim Harcourt, joined and at that point he was our head of development and he had the initial idea for Gogglebox and we went together to pitch it to Channel four along with a whole lot of other ideas. This is our last idea at the end that was almost throwaway, but fortunately. Well, because we thought a crazy idea.
- [26:07]
James Reed
Well, that's what I'm thinking. How did you sell that to someone? Someone watching people watching television?
- [26:12]
Stephen Lambert
We said it's a great. We had realized was that television watching was a unusually intimate situation. The people that you sit and watch television with are people that you tend to be very close to. And. And actually it's quite an intimate.
- [26:30]
James Reed
So that was another insight actually.
- [26:31]
Stephen Lambert
And it was. And. And also we weren't quite sure when we first sold it. And then we were given some money to make a little to of test tape of 10 minutes or so. We weren't quite sure whether this was a kind of a show about these people's lives or whether it was a TV review show.
- [26:48]
James Reed
Right.
- [26:48]
Stephen Lambert
But it was as we filmed it and then started playing with it in the. In the cutting room. We were saying we've got to. We've got to sell this as a TV review show. If you don't sell it as a TV review show, people Are confused. But you'll learn about these people slowly. And if you pick the right people, they will. Will be entertaining. They will be. They will. They will reflect the kind of diversity of. Of Britain and people will eventually. Kind of.
- [27:16]
James Reed
Quite fun seeing how people react to stuff and how different that could be.
- [27:19]
Stephen Lambert
How different, but also how similar it is.
- [27:20]
James Reed
Yeah.
- [27:21]
Stephen Lambert
And that's. That's very interesting. I mean, the hardest thing about Gogglebox and I thought we probably wouldn't pull it off, is that it's to a large extent a comedy. And comedy is all about. About. Com. Brilliant editing and comic timing which you achieve in the cutting room. But you've got no time to edit Goggle box because it has to be filmed and edited within the week. So, you know, we start filming Gogglebox on. On a Friday.
- [27:50]
James Reed
Right.
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Stephen Lambert
We're filming on Saturday. Sunday, Monday. Tuesday is about the end of our filming period. We're starting to edit from the Monday of that week.
- [28:00]
James Reed
Right.
- [28:01]
Stephen Lambert
So stuff is coming by Wednesday. We've got to. Wednesday nights it's got to be getting close to a cut. Thursday we show it to the channel. Then Friday morning we're. We're. We're stressful and then you're on air on Friday and then by then you're already filming the next one. Yeah.
- [28:19]
James Reed
So you've got to have really good editors.
- [28:21]
Stephen Lambert
You have to have amazing editors. You have to have a brilliant team. And fortunately we did develop that and now they. They're so well versed in all this that it isn't stressful or at least it's not crazily stressful. And the team are, you know, it has a rhythm. It has a real rhythm and they enjoy making it.
- [28:41]
James Reed
So forward to today. I mean, we're coming up to the conclusion of Celebrity Traitors. I mean, this has become a sort of national news story. It's in the newspapers. You've been on News Night talking about it.
- [28:53]
Stephen Lambert
Front page of the sun today.
- [28:54]
James Reed
Yeah, front page of the Sun. I was standing in a cube.
- [28:57]
Stephen Lambert
I mean, not just a little thing.
- [28:58]
James Reed
Talking about it, you know, not a.
- [29:00]
Stephen Lambert
Little thing on the front page.
- [29:02]
James Reed
Yes. So this is an amazing thing. What. What's going on here in your view, what. Why is this really captured our imagination.
- [29:13]
Stephen Lambert
It's a damn good game.
- [29:15]
James Reed
Yes.
- [29:16]
Stephen Lambert
Very well executed with unusually good celebrity cast. A cast that. The kind that you would never normally see in a celebrity reality show.
- [29:30]
James Reed
So as a producer, you pulled that together. Well, the cast key to getting the cast.
- [29:36]
Stephen Lambert
The key to getting the cast was the strength of the civilian versions.
- [29:39]
James Reed
Everybody call them civilians and celebrities. That's language. A bit like some of the sizzles and ground bait. That's another phrase. Yeah, so. Yeah, so. So the civilian versions were very successful.
- [29:53]
Stephen Lambert
The civilian versions were successful and very much liked by people particularly or relevantly, the. The celebrities themselves and everybody who took part in Celebrity Traitors were. They were all fans of the show. And they went. They weren't doing it for the money. I mean, they're paid. But it's. Compared to how much people are paid, say on, I don't know, other shows, like, I'm a celebrity. Get me out of here. They're paid much less charity, isn't it? And the prize is for charity. So the real reason, the real question, I suppose, is why did they all like the show much? And that goes back to what's interesting about the program. I suppose what's interesting about it is it turns out it's fascinating watching people lie and being given license to lie. I think one of the sort of great qualities about Traitors is that in many reality shows, people end up sort of betraying others, and that betrayal or sort of deceit is. Is sort of revealing of their character, and it can sort of leave a bad taste to the viewer. They think, oh, awful. People here, people are given license to lie, much as you're given license to lie in a poker game, so that if you win as a traitor, people congratulate you because you've played a good game. They don't say, oh, you. You mean you lied throughout? No, they say, well done, you.
- [31:29]
James Reed
Apparently, Paloma Bay's not very happy.
- [31:31]
Stephen Lambert
Well, maybe there are some examples.
- [31:33]
James Reed
That's a good story. I know. But. Yeah.
- [31:35]
Stephen Lambert
So I think from. And then I think the fact that, you know, one of the classic things of Greek drama was. Was. Is. Is dramatic irony where you, the viewer, know more than the. Than the participants.
- [31:51]
James Reed
Oh, so that goes right back to Greek drama.
- [31:54]
Stephen Lambert
Oh, I definitely think.
- [31:55]
James Reed
I love that. Because we know who the traitors are.
- [31:57]
Stephen Lambert
Obviously, we know who the traitors are. I think dramatic irony is actually a lot of programs that we've done. I mean, Undercover Boss is dramatic irony. Faking it was dramatic irony.
- [32:06]
James Reed
Yeah. Of course, that's the connecting theme in a way. Right back to Greek.
- [32:10]
Stephen Lambert
Right back to the Greeks. They had all the secrets. Yeah. And I think the fact that we, the viewers, know who the traitors are, and we can't quite believe that the faithful can't spot it and how dogmatic.
- [32:21]
James Reed
They can be wrong. It's so interesting as well.
- [32:24]
Stephen Lambert
And then that becomes so interesting to watch the way a group. Group comes to a conclusion. The way. I mean, it does make you question.
- [32:33]
James Reed
The whole jury system running a company boards anything. How a group becomes so certain about something that can be so wrong and.
- [32:41]
Stephen Lambert
And, and, and, and also how they seize on evidence to support their theories. That. I mean, the point about traitors is that the traitors do start doing things. That is real evidence. And the skill then of the faithful is to spot it, to recognize how significant it is and to persuade the other faithfuls that this is real evidence. But at the beginning of the show, there's no evidence. And so it does. It's such an. It turns out that that's very entertaining. Watching people create theories. It's. I suppose it's a sort of. It's just like it would be an in. Fascinating. And to watch how a jury works. Works.
- [33:27]
James Reed
Yeah. Well, 12 Angry Men is a very famous indeed. So, so I'm thinking about this show. It hasn't gone unnoticed, especially from colleagues of mine who've watched all of your Traitors series, that the celebrity traitors took quite a lot longer to spot.
- [33:48]
Stephen Lambert
The.
- [33:48]
James Reed
The traitor than the civilian.
- [33:51]
Stephen Lambert
That's just because I think the celebrities are very good at being traitorous traitors.
- [33:55]
James Reed
Well, you've certainly had some good ones. I don't. Yeah, that I would agree. I mean, they were very skilled in this. So. So the celebrities are better traitors.
- [34:03]
Stephen Lambert
Well, when people get frustrated with. With, with, with. With. With the faithful and think, oh, they're not very good faithful, well, the counter argument is they're very good traitors.
- [34:14]
James Reed
Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I, and I think Kat and Alan are very good still in.
- [34:18]
Stephen Lambert
Very exceptionally good.
- [34:19]
James Reed
Are exceptionally good. So, so we'll wait with great interest to see how this works out. And coming out at the same time that Traitors concludes your new celebrity race across the world series. So what's made that. That that's another huge hit?
- [34:36]
Stephen Lambert
What.
- [34:36]
James Reed
Why is that dramatic irony again or is that something else?
- [34:39]
Stephen Lambert
Definitely not dramatic irony.
- [34:41]
James Reed
Definitely not.
- [34:42]
Stephen Lambert
We all know what's going on. I mean they, we know as much as they do. Well, I think it speaks to people's love for travel, but sort of authentic travel travel. But I think the key thing about that show is that, you know, it's, it's, it's a show about a journey in the relationship of the people that are the pairs that are taking part in the competition as well as a physical journey. And I think the, the way in which the team who make it skillfully tell that story of, of how. That the relationship between father and son or two friends or husband and wife. How, how both their backstory, but also how it changes in the present tense as they go on the journey.
- [35:28]
James Reed
Yeah.
- [35:28]
Stephen Lambert
Is.
- [35:29]
James Reed
And we imagine how we would be.
- [35:31]
Stephen Lambert
And we imagine how we would be. And you see. You see the world in a way that feels sort of unfiltered. And I think also people are so touched by how generous strangers are and the kind of. The small things or sometimes the big things that people do to help each other. So. So it's a very heartwarming and uplifting show that has just the right amount of, kind of tension and excitement as they compete to get to the next checkpoint. They have all kinds of mishaps and problems getting to those checkpoints that they have to overcome. It's. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's. It's just a great, authentic journey show that has lots of journeys going on in addition to the obvious physical journey.
- [36:29]
James Reed
An odyssey. We go back to the Greeks. Yeah. So that's another, you know, classic structure, I guess. So you've got a great advertising campaign coming out to support these two shows you just mentioned to me before we started. What's it called, Steve?
- [36:44]
Stephen Lambert
Well, I don't know. The strap line for it is Running, Run, Lie, Enjoy. So you run in Race across the World, you have to lie in Celebrity Traitors and hopefully together the two are shows that you will enjoy. It's just unusual because Celebrity Race across the World is launching at 8 o' clock on Thursday on BBC1 and straight after it, at 9 o', clock, celebrity traitors comes to an end. It's the final episode. So.
- [37:17]
James Reed
So on Thursday, I'm going to be doing this. I'm going to be Run, Lie, Enjoy. That's what I'm going to be doing. And I think a few other people listening to this might be doing the same thing.
- [37:26]
Stephen Lambert
Oh, yeah, we're expecting a very big audience for the final of the Traitors. I'm sure there'll be a very big audience for this, the launch of Celebrity.
- [37:33]
James Reed
Race across the World for you and your team on television. Well, congratulations. I mean, I was thinking about this coming here. I mean, you have entertained millions of people that over more decades now, and not many people can say that. And I think it's fantastic what you do. And, and I'm so pleased that these series are such big hits because they deserve to be the one. The one that sort of I found a little surprising was the Squid Game, the Challenge, because I mean, I watched Squid Game and I thought it was the most violent show I've ever seen. But you managed to turn that into a sort of successful unscripted format.
- [38:06]
Stephen Lambert
What.
- [38:07]
James Reed
What made you do that and how does that work?
- [38:10]
Stephen Lambert
Well, we were asked to do it by Netflix.
- [38:13]
James Reed
Right.
- [38:14]
Stephen Lambert
They had the idea of wanting to.
- [38:17]
James Reed
As they came to you with this.
- [38:18]
Stephen Lambert
Idea, they said, you know, because it. Squid Game the drama is their most successful show. It's got the.
- [38:25]
James Reed
Of all time.
- [38:26]
Stephen Lambert
Of all time. Ever since Netflix has started it, it's had a bigger audience than any other show.
- [38:31]
James Reed
Tells us a lot about human beings.
- [38:33]
Stephen Lambert
Well, and they didn't expect it to be that big. I mean, they thought it was going to be huge in, In. In Korea.
- [38:39]
James Reed
Yeah.
- [38:39]
Stephen Lambert
But it just went everywhere.
- [38:41]
James Reed
It was an extraordinary show, though.
- [38:42]
Stephen Lambert
It was very unusual. And unusually, it was a drama about a competition. And the man who is in charge of unscripted television at Netflix managed to persuade his colleagues that, well, look how big his show is. A. Is a drama about a competition. Why don't we do the competition for real?
- [39:04]
James Reed
With a few. A few sort of changes.
- [39:05]
Stephen Lambert
With a few changes. I mean, initially that one goes possible to kill people, but our lawyer said, no, it's going to be really tricky.
- [39:13]
James Reed
Right. So a few important changes.
- [39:15]
Stephen Lambert
Yeah. I mean, I think people were fascinated by that world. There's a huge fan base that, that we love the, the drama. And they were interested and wanted to see what a real version was like, because, again, like a lot of these shows, like when we were talking about Race across the World, people are thinking, what would it be like if I was doing it? And again, I think with Squid Game, it was always, what would it be like if I was in that situation? And the show enables you to see what it would be like in a way that I think people find compelling.
- [39:50]
James Reed
Obviously, that's a huge financial prize as well, like in the.
- [39:54]
Stephen Lambert
And that was the kind of unscripted. That was the kind of, how do you. Obviously, we're not going to kill people, so what do you do? That somehow now gives the same sense of, oh, God, this is terrible. I've been eliminated. Well, I think it, The. The size of the prize was crucial to that. It meant that everybody. You, you, you don't die, but your dreams die when you get eliminated Somehow.
- [40:19]
James Reed
Worse, 4.56 million is not going to be yours, Stephen. You're out.
- [40:25]
Stephen Lambert
It's not.
- [40:25]
James Reed
Yeah, okay.
- [40:26]
Stephen Lambert
And only one person is going to get it.
- [40:28]
James Reed
Person gets it.
- [40:29]
Stephen Lambert
And that's. I mean, it's a Very hard show to make because if you're making the scripted version, you've got a script, and those are pretty useful things. That means you know who's going to win and you know which characters to follow because they're the ones who are going to get.
- [40:47]
James Reed
You don't, and we don't.
- [40:48]
Stephen Lambert
And so we're having to. It's a. Putting it together and shooting it is. Is. Is a bit like a relay race. You're sort of. You, You. You build a baton and you're following somebody that you get interested in and then they get eliminated. By that point, you've hopefully the pattern has been passed to somebody else. Right. And so as you get closer towards the end, the characters that will take you to the end have started to emerge, both in the filming but also in the edit. Because it's not like we can just. There's so many people. There are so many people that.
- [41:23]
James Reed
450 something.
- [41:24]
Stephen Lambert
456.
- [41:25]
James Reed
Yeah.
- [41:26]
Stephen Lambert
That's. That we can't film them all. So it's not like we can go back and go, oh, well, we know who's going to win. Let's get all the footage of what they were doing at the beginning. We just don't have it. And if we do it, they'll kind of. There'll be brief shots. They won't be. They won't be interesting stuff that will make us kind of build them up as characters.
- [41:45]
James Reed
So that's a. In production terms, a complicated task.
- [41:49]
Stephen Lambert
Very complicated, yeah.
- [41:50]
James Reed
So I'm interested. A couple of things. Just before we put traitors to bed, keeping it confidential, I mean, you know, who's won. You're sitting opposite. I'm not going to ask you, obviously, but how do you make sure that doesn't leak out? I mean, that's a huge thing because we're all on sort of tenterhooks. Do you get them to sign some? I mean, how do you make sure that happens? Because it would obviously spoil it.
- [42:12]
Stephen Lambert
Yes. I mean, everybody has contracts that say you can't talk about the show. Whether they're celebrities or civilians, some of them are better than others at.
- [42:21]
James Reed
Yeah.
- [42:22]
Stephen Lambert
Reading their contracts and sticking to them. Fortunately, when it comes to the press, they don't want to ruin it for.
- [42:28]
James Reed
So they might have heard a rumor, but they're not.
- [42:31]
Stephen Lambert
They're not going to publish anything. There's always a danger that people will say something if they think they've heard something on social media. But a rumor on social media isn't very definitive. So people. It doesn't look that different to just somebody saying, well, I think they're going to win.
- [42:47]
James Reed
And yeah, so you do need the sort of goodwill of the press.
- [42:51]
Stephen Lambert
You do need the goodwill of the press.
- [42:53]
James Reed
But they don't want to spoil it.
- [42:55]
Stephen Lambert
They don't want to spoil it for everyone. It is also, you know, people watch Hamlet over and over again. I mean, in the end of the day, I don't necessarily know that if you did know who was going to win, it would be the end of the world. You're still fascinated to know how.
- [43:08]
James Reed
How that came.
- [43:08]
Stephen Lambert
They. How the winners were able to win. You don't. You don't need to actually have that as a secret. What you, what all the stories. What you want to know is sort of how do they. How did it come about rather than actually what the final result was. But, yeah, I mean, we put an awful lot of effort into keeping it secret.
- [43:28]
James Reed
And I'm just a sort of production question. How long is everyone in the castle for? Because aren't they sort of cut off from the outside world and they go and film their.
- [43:38]
Stephen Lambert
Several. Well, no, each episode is shot in a day. Day.
- [43:41]
James Reed
Okay.
- [43:42]
Stephen Lambert
I mean, the first episode tends to get shot in more than a day because they arrive and then there's a whole lot of press stuff. You've got to.
- [43:49]
James Reed
How long would they typically be there? Two weeks or.
- [43:52]
Stephen Lambert
Well, if. If they, if they, if they get murdered or banished early on. Yeah, they're not there for very long at all.
- [43:59]
James Reed
Okay.
- [44:01]
Stephen Lambert
Then, you know, it's. It's. It's a. The. The shows tend to be like. Well, the celebrity one's nine episode. The civilian one is 12 episodes. So you're there for 12, nine days, plus a few extra days.
- [44:13]
James Reed
Yeah.
- [44:14]
Stephen Lambert
Plus you arrive, you know, to get acclimatized. I mean, so it's. It's. Yes, it's about two weeks.
- [44:19]
James Reed
Yeah. And that's of intense engagement.
- [44:22]
Stephen Lambert
Yes. Yeah, it is. It is very intense. I mean, you can tell.
- [44:26]
James Reed
I mean, looking at it.
- [44:27]
Stephen Lambert
Well, I think crucially, with all these shows, it's the same with Squid Game. You create a world where we try not to be in there with them.
- [44:36]
James Reed
Right.
- [44:36]
Stephen Lambert
As much as possible.
- [44:38]
James Reed
I mean, like, you as the production team.
- [44:40]
Stephen Lambert
We. The production team, they're in. You know, they're. The camera coverage is such that they just get on with it. I mean, they get dropped off. They kind of know. That's another reason why it's very important that you do the whole episode in a day, because they're sort of picking up the Rhythm of the show. They know they get dropped off, they go to breakfast, they know what to do. I mean, Claudia comes in and tells them a little bit. They know when the clocks strike, oh, it's time to go home. I mean, you don't need somebody to keep telling them what to do. And, and we don't ever tell them, go and this, or why don't you go and say that? Or.
- [45:15]
James Reed
So it has its own energy.
- [45:16]
Stephen Lambert
So it has its own energy because the most important thing is it's authentic.
- [45:20]
James Reed
So there's no direction going on.
- [45:22]
Stephen Lambert
No, I mean, we're trying to work out what we think might happen. We're all the time anticipating, but that's not the same thing as trying to tell them what to, you know, telling them what to do.
- [45:32]
James Reed
Yeah.
- [45:33]
Stephen Lambert
And also, remember, it's, it's, it's a competition. I mean, particularly with the civilian versions, people are winning quite a lot of money. And so, so with any competition, there are very strict rules. I mean, with Squid Game, the challenge, the amount of money is enormous. So the rules are equally very, very strict. You know, we. You can't interfere in any way as a producer in a.
- [45:56]
James Reed
No, you can't have a favorite faithful or anything like that.
- [45:59]
Stephen Lambert
No.
- [46:00]
James Reed
Stephen Fry gets it. He gets it. I suppose.
- [46:03]
Stephen Lambert
Indeed.
- [46:04]
James Reed
Indeed. Looking forward, I mean, I, I meet lots of young people, people who say they want to work in TV or they want to go into film, and it isn't obvious how someone might do that. And I bet you get a lot of people coming to you. But if someone was interested in this space, I mean, you, you went into it through an unusual route, you said, doing a PhD about Channel 4. And often unusual routes are the best. But what should a young person who's interested in this space, because it is a huge industry now, now, and, and something that Britain clearly excels at, thanks to you and others. What should a young person be thinking about or trying to sort of learn, or what experience might they usefully get to, to start that journey?
- [46:47]
Stephen Lambert
Stephen, the obvious one is watch television. It's amazing how many people, really obvious.
- [46:53]
James Reed
They come to you and they haven't watched it.
- [46:55]
Stephen Lambert
When you start asking them about television programs and they, they haven't watched a lot of things. Yeah, try and watch television. Not just television today, but, you know, much historical, I mean, interesting television, whether it's dramas or reality shows or whatever, that give you a historical perspective of where television has come from. Develop your critical faculties. Watch television and start thinking about, why, why do I like this program? What's making it work or why don't I like this program? And what's making it not work for me? How would I change this program that's not working for me to make it better? Learn how to talk about television so that you're discussing it. And as a, as a, as a medium through which, if you're interested in working in it, you understand what are its constituent parts and which bits. Well, all bits are crucial to making it work. But you know, why did they get it wrong? I mean, with scripted programs it's amazing because so much energy goes into the script and yet sometimes you watch things, you think, why on earth did this ever get ordered? Because the script was terrible. But obviously somebody thought it was good and why would they have thought it was good? And also what is a particular program trying to do? Obviously every programs are doing different kinds of things, not just in terms of what they're about, but also what they're doing in a schedule. Because television is still largely, still commissioned for a linear schedule. Even though so much is watched on streaming platforms. But even on a streaming platform, even on Netflix, they're still. You've got to think about, well, what are they actually doing? How are they spending their money? What percentage of their money are they spending on kind of low cost programs? What kind of programs are they buying that probably don't cost that much? Why are they deciding to spend a lot of money on those big ones? Just read about television, watch television, learn to talk about it.
- [48:59]
James Reed
Immerse yourself.
- [49:00]
Stephen Lambert
Immerse yourself. That's the number one thing.
- [49:03]
James Reed
Yeah.
- [49:03]
Stephen Lambert
The number two thing is. Yeah, I mean, you, it's hard. There's so many people want to work in.
- [49:09]
James Reed
That's what I'm seeing.
- [49:10]
Stephen Lambert
Yeah. So. But it's equally much easier today to make something and put it up on YouTube or to put it elsewhere, I mean, on Instagram or whatever called a sizzle tape. Well, a sizzle.
- [49:24]
James Reed
Make your own sizzle tape.
- [49:25]
Stephen Lambert
Make your own sizzle tape of your skills.
- [49:28]
James Reed
I was thinking about your CBS experience.
- [49:30]
Stephen Lambert
Indeed, indeed. I know, I understand. Yes. But I mean, you don't have to just make a sizzle tape. You could, you can make a little. Come up with something that if you, if you, if you. A comedy of some kind going into. People can do amazing things with very little these days. And they can show with phones and they can show their creative sensibility and skills.
- [49:55]
James Reed
I mean, this is, but this is so exciting in a way, because you can do this with nothing really. You can start from course. There are no barriers to entry, you don't have to have huge amounts of capital.
- [50:03]
Stephen Lambert
I mean, if you're interested in television. Wonder if I. Television. Think about two people that you know who you think are very funny and just arrange for them to talk to each other and film it and edit it. Because it's also not very difficult to edit and put it up on YouTube and say, look, and then you can show people stuff that you're doing then.
- [50:20]
James Reed
So immerse yourself and get started in.
- [50:22]
Stephen Lambert
Some way, then get started in some way. And then the hardest bit of all is sort of latch onto somebody who's a mentor. I mean, most people in television have some. At some point early in their career, they've found somebody that they've managed to film, build a relationship with so that those. That person sort of helps them get going and, and, and, and sort of helps them get in the door or.
- [50:48]
James Reed
Or get some encouragement or some introduction.
- [50:50]
Stephen Lambert
Yeah, yeah. I mean, none of that's easy.
- [50:53]
James Reed
No, but it's all imminently possible.
- [50:55]
Stephen Lambert
It's all possible if you're really driven. I'm. Yeah, I'm often surprised at people's lack of interest in kind of really understanding what television is and where it's come from. And I think if you.
- [51:10]
James Reed
Which is where we began our conversation.
- [51:12]
Stephen Lambert
It is, yeah.
- [51:13]
James Reed
So you think that's so understanding that is critical, really.
- [51:18]
Stephen Lambert
You know.
- [51:19]
James Reed
Well, you've helped explain it actually, in this, in this conversation, for anyone listening, they've got to start.
- [51:24]
Stephen Lambert
Really need to know where we've come from and what's been done.
- [51:27]
James Reed
You mentioned, I mean, you mentioned the importance of watching television, you know, other unscripted shows not made by you that you think that you really like.
- [51:37]
Stephen Lambert
Oh, well, all the hits that we don't make, I wish we had made.
- [51:40]
James Reed
So which ones are you thinking of?
- [51:42]
Stephen Lambert
I just think, well, I mean, Bake off is a huge hit.
- [51:44]
James Reed
Bake Off.
- [51:45]
Stephen Lambert
Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?
- [51:46]
James Reed
Yeah.
- [51:47]
Stephen Lambert
In America, Survivor. I mean. Yeah, I'm very. It's really hard to make a popular successful post program, I bet. Because I'm often amazed because when I was a documentary maker at the BBC, there was always a kind of, oh, well, we make the real stuff. You know, we're telling the people. Documentary, documentary. We're telling people about how the world is. We're not making kind of sort of entertainment stuff.
- [52:18]
James Reed
This is psychology we've been talking about, though.
- [52:21]
Stephen Lambert
But exactly. And, and, and, and the idea that, oh, well, you can just default to popular, easy stuff. It's the hardest thing in the world to Come up with something that it's much harder in my mind or in my experience to sit around with clever colleagues and try and design a new, popular, returning, entertaining program than it is to, say, go and make a documentary about, I don't know, anything.
- [52:46]
James Reed
Policeman in South Africa.
- [52:47]
Stephen Lambert
Policeman in South Africa. Because essentially, actually, if I want to make a program about Policeman South Africa, okay, well, I've got to find some charming way of persuading the people who are the gatekeepers to let us in.
- [52:59]
James Reed
Right?
- [52:59]
Stephen Lambert
And there are all kind of techniques for how you do that, but they're essentially practitional skills. I mean, they're skills about how to persuade people, how to be around, how to win people's trust. How you start filming what kinds of things you film that will make a bit of narrative for you. How you then put all that together in a cutting room. All that is skills that you kind of start to learn as you're in television. You get better and better at it. But that's not as. That's an easier process, I still think, than to sit there and kind of with a piece of blank paper. Let's just come up with something now that is going to be a design for a program that is a format that will repeat that there's sufficient variation so that people aren't watching the same thing over and over again, but they are watching something that is essentially repeating. I mean, each season of Traitors, the same format is happening. It's just that it's designed in such a way that there's sufficient variation because of the change of the cast and because of the way the game plays out. So that is a very intellectually challenging.
- [54:15]
James Reed
I can see that that's a hard thing to do, that, I think, then.
- [54:19]
Stephen Lambert
Then the practical skills of actually making, say, a documentary.
- [54:24]
James Reed
Talk me through that a bit then. So you have a group of people, but how many of you would sit around with this blank piece of paper and. And how do you sort of. I don't like the word ideate or create some new format. I mean, you've obviously done it a number of times of times.
- [54:37]
Stephen Lambert
I've done a lot. I mean, these days, my younger colleagues do most of it. I tend to get more involved as we get to the point where an idea is sort of at the point where we're trying to sell it to the buyers and people have thump up the money where you've got. I mean, the hardest thing in television, I think, is persuading somebody to give you the money to make a television program.
- [55:01]
James Reed
So what are we, how much money are we talking about? Just so people understand, television programs used.
- [55:07]
Stephen Lambert
To be in the hundreds of thousands. I mean, the kind of programs that we make now, they can be over a million episode. And I mean, in the case of like Squid Game, the challenge, it's, you know, more than, I mean, it's millions as opposed to an episode rather than. So it's.
- [55:26]
James Reed
And so someone's writing you a big.
- [55:27]
Stephen Lambert
Check at this point, they're writing you.
- [55:29]
James Reed
A big check to buy this out.
- [55:30]
Stephen Lambert
We made a decision, my partner Tim and I, a few years ago to just concentrate on big shows because we had the view that of thinking about it from the buyer's point of view. The buyers are going to lose their jobs if they buy very expensive shows and they don't work. And so they're taking a huge risk. And yet they know that in order to kind of stand out, by and large they need to take these big risks because those big shows are the shows that, that are the ones that are going to page of the Sun. Get on the front page of the Sun. And so if you're going to be a buyer buying big shows, you're only going to buy from people that you know can actually deliver and are not going to screw up. So even if you've got a good idea for a big show, if you don't know how to make it or if you haven't got the track record that says you can make it it, then you're very unlikely to actually get that board right.
- [56:32]
James Reed
And so you need the combination that.
- [56:34]
Stephen Lambert
Come once you can get into that club, once you're in that club of we make big shows and we can deliver and they're good. It's surprisingly not as crowded a club as other parts of television.
- [56:45]
James Reed
Yeah, I'm thinking there's some barriers to entry there. So that makes it a good business, though.
- [56:50]
Stephen Lambert
I mean, that does make it a good business. You're concentrating on big shows, then it's. There's less competition and it's also, you know, the, the, the, the rewards are greater.
- [57:05]
James Reed
So I'm thinking about the business studio. Lambert, you've become part of all three media. So they acquired your business. Is that right? And just talk me through that because, I mean, you've got quite an interesting business model, as I understand.
- [57:20]
Stephen Lambert
Well, I'm constrained from thinking too much about a business model, but fair enough. We talked earlier how television, independent television developed and how in the early 2000s, the independent sector finally got a better deal out of. From. With the support of government. And as a result, for the first time, money did start to come into the sector, outside money. And as a result, there's been quite a consolidation process. And so a lot of independent production companies have been bought and become part of big groups. And those groups are able to kind of avoid the sort of problem of being too small. And so kind of feast and famine. If you're large enough, then you've got enough of these returning programs. And when something drops away, you've got something else coming through and it's on a scale also enables you to have a. You know, if television is either sold to buyers who take all the rights like Netflix, or they're sold to program to people like the BBC or NBC in America who just take the rights to their particular territories, that second group of buyers are much better from an independence point of view because you then get the right to sell the program and the finished program and the format all around the world. And if you're part of a big group, the distribution company will then be a very effective seller of your tape and your format to, to all the territories. So that's why, and, and that's how the benefit, the sector benefits. I mean how you retain talent is, is, is, is difficult. And we've, we've come up with quite ingenious deals that enabled us to incentivize everybody in our company, or not everybody, but all the key people to, to keep staying and, and, and, and to do deals where there are rewards over time that are, you know, dependent on how well we're doing. And they, they, they, they as well as the culture of the company have been the key things in terms of making us successful.
- [59:29]
James Reed
So just sort of looking ahead a little bit as we come towards the end of the conversation, I mean, what excites you most about the future of Unscripted? I mean it's obviously a world in which you're leading, but what's next in this space ways?
- [59:42]
Stephen Lambert
Well, the new Big thing. I mean, I don't know that there's a theme of what's going to excite me. I mean we are trying to take a lesson from Squid Game and seeing other big, big existing IP and how we can turn something that already exists as, either as a, as a game or as a, as a, as a big drama series and turn that into a big unscripted show, obviously coming up with new ideas ourselves and, and, and we're looking for opportunities that, to, you know, to partner with the right people or to take something, I mean, where somebody comes to you with an idea for.
- [60:27]
James Reed
So you're open to ideas from. From the right places.
- [60:30]
Stephen Lambert
We're open to ideas that tend to come to us from a buyer rather than from sort of individuals. I mean, in other words, if a broadcaster like Netflix came to us and talked about wanting us to do an unscripted ve of Squid Game, that kind of thing, rather than. Because, I mean, we. We employ a lot of people, we employ a very talented development team to create our own ideas. So every time we take an idea from, or if we ever took an idea from outside of our own group, our own in, in house people, there's an opportunity costume that's complicated, the dilution. So we tend not to do that. That. But obviously if a broadcaster comes to us or a streamer comes to us with something and says, do you want to make this into a. Into a show, then that's quite exciting. And you know that then often it will. It will happen.
- [61:20]
James Reed
Yeah. Well, as it did with Squid Game. A challenge. Lastly, Stephen, is there anything you wish you'd known at the beginning of your career that you know now that you could have told your younger self?
- [61:32]
Stephen Lambert
By Apple.
- [61:33]
James Reed
By Apple, yeah. I wish I'd known that as well. That's a very good answer. I don't know what the equivalent is for the future, but there must be something out there for anyone to keep an eye on.
- [61:46]
Stephen Lambert
I don't know. Gosh, I. I listened back to a tape of an interview I did when I wrote my book in 1982, and I realized I was so wrapped up in the subject matter that I was describing the trees and I couldn't actually describe the wood. And I think to be able to tell people when they're young, immerse yourself in knowledge about whatever it is that you're interested in, but then also be able to try to step back and talk about it in a way as if you're explaining it to your slightly deaf aunt, rather than thinking that I need to explain all this complexity and detail is something that would have been useful for me to have appreciated quicker.
- [62:39]
James Reed
Why do you say that? It's an interesting answer.
- [62:42]
Stephen Lambert
Well, I just think as a younger person, I was very interested in the detail of things and that I would often have been asked about it would want to explain it in too much complexity. I mean, I think even in this conversation, I just think that people get bored unless you tell it in a very good way or. Or also that it. If you're trying to communicate, whether in. In almost any situation, you have to be able to work out what is the actual pithy important bits. And, and being able to develop your skill. It's no good thinking you know what the pissy important bits are if you don't actually know the subject. But then if you know the subject in great detail, don't think you've got to explain all that detail.
- [63:27]
James Reed
Make sure you know what the pithy important bits are.
- [63:29]
Stephen Lambert
Exactly.
- [63:29]
James Reed
I mean, that's a communication skill.
- [63:31]
Stephen Lambert
Yes, it is.
- [63:32]
James Reed
So getting your message across, or if you've got five minutes with someone, what's the one thing you want them to know about you when they leave?
- [63:39]
Stephen Lambert
Absolutely.
- [63:39]
James Reed
And that's a sales skill as well.
- [63:41]
Stephen Lambert
It is sales skill and I think that one sales skills got. I learned my sales skill from 10 talking people into taking part in documentaries.
- [63:50]
James Reed
Right.
- [63:50]
Stephen Lambert
And interviewing people in documentaries. I mean that you, you're listening all the time and you're trying to. I think the best salespeople are listening as much as they're that, that they're pitching. They're, they're picking up all the signals of, of what the, the buyer, the listener is, is, is, is reacting to what you're saying and you're, you're responding to those, but in a way that isn't like over responsive.
- [64:19]
James Reed
Well, I remember going on a sales course years ago and I was just told, you've got two ears and one mouth. So that was quite a helpful pithy summary of that, what you're saying. Yeah, I agree. And, and what's interesting, you know, you've been describing these, these, these wonderful programs and the psychology behind them, the importance of ideas. But you've still got to do sales. And every business, whatever activity it is we're in, involves, that's what I mostly.
- [64:41]
Stephen Lambert
Do these days is, is, is my energy, main energy, goes into getting things across the line because some young people.
- [64:49]
James Reed
I meet say, oh, I don't want to do sales or I'm worried about doing so I don't want to pick up the phone. But everyone has to do that. You know, you're the top of the tree in terms of television production. That's your main activity. Just said, yeah, and, and it's true for what I do. And I mean you might be a top lawyer. It's true for what they do or people in business. So I think those skills, what you just said is very illuminating. To learn how to do that early on would help anyone in any activity.
- [65:13]
Stephen Lambert
Absolutely. When I was trying to persuade people to take part in documentaries, particularly if they had views like South African policemen who I wouldn't necessarily chair. You want them to feel that they are persuading you of their point of view. That doesn't mean you should go straight into going, oh, I completely agree with you. But if you kind of knowledge their worldview and sort of, oh, I see what you're saying is this, then people feel so much more comfortable and relaxed about the fact that they think they've won you over and they. That's how you form a relationship of trust in many cases, because you're sort of.
- [65:50]
James Reed
Well, you're being respectful.
- [65:51]
Stephen Lambert
You're being respectful and you're. And you're. You're repeating back your understanding of what it is that they're trying to say to you. And that's actually a technique that one uses in selling all the time, particularly if you understand. I think that for us, we put a lot of energy into understanding the position of the buyer when it comes to selling a television program. What's their position in the organization? Who do they have to sell to in order to get approval to get this thing to go ahead? People. Too many people are selling thinking that it's all about them and it's actually all about the person who's buying that you've got.
- [66:32]
James Reed
You know, that's so true. And it's most true in job interviews. I mean, people think I, I accept. Explained to people in one of my books that a job, in a job is a problem to be solved. And you, when you go into the interview, you've got to present yourself as the solution to the problem, not what's in it for. For me. And you're saying the same.
- [66:50]
Stephen Lambert
Absolutely.
- [66:51]
James Reed
In this, in this different area.
- [66:53]
Stephen Lambert
This, this idea I have for you, James, as a television program, it's just what you need to solve all your problems.
- [66:58]
James Reed
Yeah, I'm sold. Steve, I can see why this has worked out so well for you. I've so enjoyed talking to you and I wish you continued success. Can't wait to see who wins Traitors on. On Thursday. And, and congratulations again on your Emmy, which was for Traitors in America. America. I asked two questions at the end of every. Every one of my podcast conversations, which I'm going to ask you the first question because here at Reed, we love Mondays is what gets you up, Stephen, on a Monday morning.
- [67:26]
Stephen Lambert
My trainer.
- [67:27]
James Reed
Your trainer. Very good.
- [67:31]
Stephen Lambert
I have to be up for him because I see him on Monday, Wednesday and Fridays and then I don't know.
- [67:36]
James Reed
What time does that start?
- [67:38]
Stephen Lambert
7:30.
- [67:39]
James Reed
Right. Very good.
- [67:41]
Stephen Lambert
And then I.
- [67:43]
James Reed
Why do you do that?
- [67:45]
Stephen Lambert
Because I don't want to die early.
- [67:49]
James Reed
Good answer. You think that'll help? Yeah, I agree.
- [67:51]
Stephen Lambert
I do keep telling him. I've read another book that says exercising.
- [67:55]
James Reed
To push you too hard.
- [67:58]
Stephen Lambert
As I, as he makes me do another horrible thing. Horrible crunch. I, I've just read another book that says exercise is bad for you. But he doesn't believe me.
- [68:08]
James Reed
Not in it. It's not in his interest, I believe.
- [68:11]
Stephen Lambert
But no, I love the game. I love getting up and, and, and, you know, I love those, that moment when somebody says, yes, they're going to buy something. I love that moment when you read the overnights, which is the numbers that come in that tell you how well a program has done and they're bigger than you thought, and you go, oh, my God. Yes, I, I, I, I, I, I actually also like it when you go to the award ceremony and they say, and the winner is and it's your show. There's a lot of highs and I love the teamwork of, you know, of, of, of programs being made. I mean, the magic of television is the way, you know, you've kindly said that we've been doing a lot of programs that have entertained millions. But what's extraordinary is you can have an idea in your head and in such a short period of time, it can be in millions of people's heads. You know, that, that, that, that transference, that transference of. But it's just the fact that you don't have to build huge infrastructure, you know, physical infrastructure to manufacture something and then sell it and get it out. It's a relatively light kind of physical infrastructure system and really quite quick. I mean, often it takes longer than you want it to, but the process. We could have an idea today, go and see the right buyer. We could be making it like in the next few months, and it could be on television early next year. And if it's a hit, millions and millions of people have now seen it and it's got inside their heads, whereas before it was just in our heads. That's a very intoxicating proposition.
- [69:47]
James Reed
I can see that. I can see that. And I can see why you love Mondays. So, Steve, my last question, which is from my book, why you 101 interview questions you'll Never Fear Again, it's a very straightforward one, is where do you see yourself in five years, Years time?
- [70:03]
Stephen Lambert
Five years? Well, I don't know. I think I will by then probably have stepped back a bit further. I mean, the last few years I've been stepping. I mean, I'm very good at delegating and I probably will have delegated that much more. Whether I'm still involved in this company in the same way in five years time, I don't know. But I have so many other interests and I love doing other things. In five years time, I'll be in my early 70s, so I just don't know. It's a big question for me because I need to try and work out what I want to do in the remaining time. Suddenly, as you get into your late 60s, you start suddenly realizing there isn't that much time left. And working out whether you want to do the same thing or whether you want to do other things is very much in my mind at the moment. And I think five years is the time that I will sort of make that decision over.
- [71:09]
James Reed
You'll probably be watching television some other time.
- [71:12]
Stephen Lambert
I'll definitely be watching television and I.
- [71:14]
James Reed
Suspect some of the shows will have your stamp on them. But I wish you continued success and whatever that transitional journey, wherever it takes you. I wish you all the very best. Thanks so much for coming in to talk to me, Stephen, thanks. Really enjoy our conversation and I've learned a lot about how TV is made and your thought process around it. So thank you.
- [71:38]
Stephen Lambert
Pleasure. Thank you.
- [71:40]
James Reed
A huge thank you to Stephen Lambert for sharing his insights into building Studio Lambert, creating the traitors and navigating the fast chase world of television. I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you want to learn more about Studio Lambert, Stephen or Reid, you'll find all the links in the show notes. See you next time.