54. The secret psychology brands use to influence consumer habits | Raphy March

Summary

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Podcast Summary: James Reed: All About Business — Ep 54: "The Secret Psychology Brands Use to Influence Consumer Habits" with Raphy March

Date: November 24, 2025
Host: James Reed CBE, Chairman and CEO of Reed Group
Guest: Raphy March, Managing Director, Cowrie Consulting

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Overview

In this episode, James Reed welcomes Raphy March, Managing Director at Cowrie Consulting, an award-winning behavioral science consultancy. The conversation dives into how behavioral science and AI intersect to shape consumer habits, the ethics of behavioral interventions, the role of subconscious biases in decision-making, and practical ways brands use psychology to enhance customer experience and loyalty.

Raphy shares actionable insights from real-world projects, explains key psychological concepts, discusses ethical frameworks, and highlights the ever-evolving role of AI in understanding and shaping human behavior at scale.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Foundations of Behavioral Science

• Definition & Purpose
  • Behavioral science studies why humans think and act the way they do, digging into both consumer and employee behavior.
    • Quote: “Behavioral science is a way of understanding why humans think and act in the way that they do.” — Raphy [02:03]
• Bias & Irrationality:
  • Humans rarely make decisions solely on logic; we rely on mental shortcuts and behavioral biases due to decision overwhelm.
  • Behavioral science reframes choices and gently guides better outcomes — not manipulation, but “nudge” tactics.

2. Real-World Applications

• Healthcare & Stigma
  • Example: Improving medication adherence and reframing illness to combat daily reminders and stigma (e.g., HIV medications).
    • Quote: “That constant daily reminder that you have an illness… can be quite demotivating or draining” — Raphy [06:52]
  • Temptation Coupling: Pairing a challenging task (taking medication) with a pleasurable one (buying a snack) to boost compliance.
• Public Sector Nudges
  • Discussion of the UK’s “nudge unit” and how governments use subtle behavioral cues in public health, with a focus on positive impact and the limitations of nudging.

3. The Power of Framing

• Positive vs. Negative Framing
  • Example: Job adverts with “90% successful” vs. “10% unsuccessful” — people gravitate to positively framed statistics.
    • Quote: “That’s what behavioral science does: it reframes information in a way that helps you make more informed choices.” — Raphy [11:11]

4. Business Case Studies

• Northern Rail: Cleanliness Perception
  • Audited factors influencing perceptions of train cleanliness — not just objective reality, but elements like scent (lavender = relaxed, perceived clean) and lighting (warm = cozy, thus cleaner).
    • Quote: “If you are more calm as a person, your perception of your environment is that things are more calm and then things are more clean.” — Raphy [14:40]
• Keep Britain Tidy: Cigarette Littering
  • Tackled “bin blindness” — after nicotine, smokers don’t notice bins. Used behavioral interviews & campaigns targeting subconscious habits, combining creative (with VCCP) and scientific insights.

5. Behavioral Insights in the Private Sector

• Brand Work: From Amazon to Tesco
  • Helped brands go beyond functional benefits to tap into deeper emotional drivers of loyalty, using tools like implicit response testing.
  • Tesco Case: Identified “emotional holes” not addressed by discounting strategies.
    • Quote: "There was a glaring hole ... these more emotional factors that meant people were less likely to use Clubcard." — Raphy [46:11]
• Sales & Service Optimization: Sky
  • Improved customer retention by empowering call center staff with cues of authority and adjusted scripts, boosting trust and retention.
    • Quote: "By just using that one introduction that builds the authority... the likelihood of retaining that customer is increased by 13%." — Raphy [39:36]

6. Ethics and the “Power” of Behavioral Science

• Clear internal ethical code: Only recommend interventions they’d use themselves.
  • Quote: “We would only do to others as we would do to ourselves.” — Raphy [25:48]
• Case: Encouraging annual leave use to prevent burnout, by defaulting holidays into calendars.

7. Practical Behavioral Science Tips

• The Pratfall Effect:
  • Showing minor flaws or “humanness” increases likability (e.g., in job interviews or restaurant complaints).
    • Quote: “If you are absolutely perfect... you come across as less human. Pratfall effect: a small flaw makes you more genuine.” — Raphy [29:26]
• Persuasion & Negotiation:
  • Use physical evidence (heavy documents showcase effort), bring warm drinks to create positive emotional warmth, use intelligent font/print choices for impression management.

8. Visual Authority & Trust-Building

• Use visuals (certificates, awards, star ratings) and concise, positive messaging to signal trust and experience (“Since 2002”, Trustpilot ratings).
  • Quote: "If you can communicate it visually, that’s even better, because 50% of our cortex is dedicated to visual processing." — Raphy [41:31]

9. AI and Behavioral Science

• Cowrie is refocusing on “behavioral intelligence” powered by AI — using psychology to inform data models and predict behavior at scale.
• AI can now process emotional expressions and complement (not replace) human behavioral analysis in research/interviews.
  • Quote: “Behavioral science is excellent at understanding how people think and make decisions, but what AI and data allows us to do is… predict and look forward at what people will do and do that at scale.” — Raphy [49:05]
• Importance of embedding empathy and behavioral expertise in AI development, both for ethical use and practical human alignment.

10. Trust, Apology, and Recovery

• Formula for regaining trust after brand missteps:
  • Genuine apology with explicit “sorry”
  • Acknowledgement of emotions/impact
  • Concrete actions for resolution
  • Quote: "Not necessarily being empathetic, but being compassionate… signposting them to the things we can do to resolve it." — Raphy [61:18]
• Trust equation: credibility, consistency, reliability, minimized ego.

11. The Future of Behavioral Science & AI

• Demand for behavioral scientists and data-savvy psychologists is growing, especially to “humanize” AI.
• Behavioral intelligence will move from small nudges to influencing large-scale societal transformation.
• Raphy’s wish: To expand Cowrie Consulting globally and push for more behaviorally intelligent advertising and product experience.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On behavioral science vs. classical economics:
  • "Assume a rational maximizer... they're all based on a false premise because we're not rational maximizers." — James [03:26]
• On reframing and positivity:
  • “I'd be going for the 90% personally... because it feels positive.” — James [10:13]
• On bin blindness:
  • “When you smoke a cigarette, the nicotine actually hacks your brain… you are less aware of things in your direct surroundings. Gives you bin blindness.” — Raphy [18:31]
• On the Pratfall effect:
  • “If you are absolutely perfect... you actually come across as less human… small flaw or inadequacy, you come across as more genuine.” — Raphy [29:18]
• On using visual cues for authority:
  • “50% of our cortex is dedicated to visual processing... it's just 13 milliseconds to understand an image.” — Raphy [41:31]
• On AI’s promise and pitfalls in behavioral research:
  • “We are helping clients make sure [AI] is based on how humans make decisions... what AI and data allows us to do is predict and look forward at what people will do, and do that at scale.” — Raphy [49:05]
• On apology and regaining trust:
  • "There is such a thing as a perfect apology—genuine, explicit, acknowledging the emotions and then rectifying the issue." — Raphy [60:49]
• On optimism in AI:
  • “There is a healthy level of fear with new technology... but I also think there is a world of opportunity.” — Raphy [65:15]

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• [00:00–02:03] — Introduction to Raphy March and behavioral science
• [06:01–07:11] — Temptation coupling and habits in health
• [08:21–11:27] — Government nudges, reframing in recruitment
• [11:48–16:14] — Northern Rail case: Subjective cleanliness, sensory cues
• [16:44–22:24] — Keep Britain Tidy: Bin blindness and smokers, facial expression analysis
• [25:10–28:10] — Ethics in behavioral interventions, annual leave defaults
• [29:18–31:05] — Pratfall effect and restaurant complaints
• [31:35–33:35] — Negotiation hacks (e.g., getting a pay rise), using heavy documents and warm drinks
• [34:42–39:39] — Sky case study: Cues of authority, retention results
• [43:00–46:11] — Implicit response tests, emotional vs. functional brand value (Tesco)
• [48:02–52:45] — AI integration in behavioral science, complementing human skills
• [60:49–62:26] — Building trust and the psychology of apology
• [66:03–67:17] — Raphy on what motivates her and Cowrie’s future
• [67:17–end] — Closing

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Conclusion

This episode offers a lively, insightful exploration of how brands (and governments) use behavioral psychology not just to “nudge,” but to genuinely improve experiences and outcomes for consumers and employees. Raphy makes a compelling case for blending science, ethics, and empathy in business strategy — and sets out a vision for AI-powered, human-centered behavioral intelligence as the next frontier.

Whether you’re in marketing, leadership, service, or tech, the lessons here are powerful, practical, and grounded in both rigor and real-world results.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. How can businesses gain a true understanding of what drives customer decisions? And how can science be applied to create marketing that not only feels deeply human, but also delivers measurable results? Joining me today on All About Business is Rafi Marsh, managing director at Cowrie Consulting, a pioneer in combining behavioral science with AI to help global brands like Coca Cola, EasyJet and Sky influence behavior at scale. She shares practical insights on building human centered AI strategies, the ethics of shaping customer experiences, and how entrepreneurs can use data and psychology to stand out, scale and grow with purpose. Today on All About Business, I couldn't be more delighted than to welcome Raffi March, who's the managing director at Cowrie Consulting, which is an award winning behavioral science consultancy which is on a mission to make business as human as humanly possible. Which sounds very positive, Rafi. And she's also the co host of a podcast, how to Hack the brain. And season two is coming soon in 2026. She confided in me just now. So Carrie helps businesses to understand human behavior and design and implement behavioral interventions that improve decision making and enhance user experience. Now you use behavioral science, Rafi, I think we've got to begin by asking, what is that? What is behavioral science?

[B]

I'm happy to talk about it all day, James, but thank you for, for having me on. It's a pleasure to be here. So behavioral science is a way of understanding why humans think and act in the way that they do. So we are a group of scientists with a shared passion for understanding human behavior and we dig deeper into the psyche of consumers, but also employees to think about why are they doing the things that they're doing, what is it that is making them do that? And then how can we potentially make them do other things?

[A]

Oh, so this is a sort of branch of anthropology in a sense?

[B]

Yeah, it's, I guess it's builds on traditional economics by not always assuming that we are completely rational. I think behavioural economics, I guess would suggest that we make decisions based on logic. So if that were the case, we wouldn't drink, drive, we wouldn't smoke, we wouldn't binge on chocolate. But we know that people don't always Necessarily think in that logical vein. What we've actually got going on is a group of different systems of thinking within our minds and there are sets of behavioural biases that we rely on to help us make decisions because we're making thousands of. Of decisions every day and if we had to pay attention to every one of them, we'd be completely overloaded. So instead our brain has a way of processing information that helps us navigate that in a more easy way. But we can be prone to bias.

[A]

Yeah, I remember studying economics and it was always began with, you know, assume a rational maximizer.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

Assume perfect composition. And then these great elaborate models emerge and they're all based on a false premise because we're not rational maximizers. We're not human beings.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Behave in all sorts of weird and wonderful ways.

[B]

We do. But that's. I think the exciting thing about behavioral science is when we have an understanding of how people make decisions, we can start to influence people in different ways and we can help them make decisions where they can maximize certain situations and they can make decisions that are better aligned with what they're trying to do.

[A]

So you just said something that I think is really interesting, that a day is filled with decisions, a lifetime is filled with decisions. In the end, a lifetime in a way is just a sort of accumulation of decisions. You could say, which decisions are you most interested in?

[B]

So we are interested in the decisions that are going to improve people's life and make things easier for them to do. So it could be as simple as helping them start a new habit, for example. So behavioral science has always been very prominent within our government, but actually it's been less prominent within private businesses.

[A]

And they're all start a new habit. Well, like smoking or something. What do you mean?

[B]

Well, I think that's a habit we don't really like.

[A]

Yeah, well, that's what we're trying to. We're trying to help people stop smoking. So what you're trying to start positive habits was of exercising?

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

So is that something you've done?

[B]

So we do do work within the health space to help people make better decisions. It might be. And helping to remind them to take medications on time. Or it might be around just changing perceptions of certain illnesses. Maybe there are certain stigmas attached that make them feel uncomfortable or perhaps embarrassed about their identity. And we can help to alter their perceptions so that actually maybe these habits and daily reminders of the illnesses that they go through don't always have to have these negative associations and they can feel Positive about.

[A]

Describe.

[B]

I mean, what, for example, working with those who take daily HIV medications, for example, there's obviously certain stigmas that come with HIV and helping alter people's perceptions of that as an illness or having to take medication for it, I think is really important for a large group of people.

[A]

So you alter their perceptions of themselves in a sense, then?

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

So how do you do that? I mean, that's interesting to me.

[B]

So one of the things we often talk about is a bias called temptation coupling. And this is where you would partner something that's really quite difficult to do with something that is more easy to do or something that's potentially rewarding. So if I am someone who really likes to buy a snack on my way home from work, that's something that I'm motivated by. So if I can partner that with a reminder where I might have to take a medication, for example, then actually I start to form positive associations with both things.

[A]

So is the suggestion that people don't take the medication because they don't like it or because they're ashamed of it, or they. They forget, or what's the. What's the reason you wouldn't take a medication in that context?

[B]

So lots of different reasons, but I guess the key one that. That comes to mind in this context is having a reminder that it's something that you are influenced by and perhaps defined by every day.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that constant daily reminder that you have an illness is something that can be quite demotivating or quite draining over time. So it's about changing that perception so you feel more positive about yourself.

[A]

So that's the psychology of it.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

It's a sort of drag in a way, or could be.

[B]

Yeah, it can be a drag. It can be. I think when it comes to psychology, there's lots of different push and pull factors and we can. Once we start to identify what maybe the biggest barriers or drivers of behaviors are, we can then start to alter how people perceive it.

[A]

So a little while ago, I remember there was a nudge unit. It was called the nudge unit in number 10 Downing Street. I think it was the previous government that had the nudge. You. Were you involved in that? It's.

[B]

No.

[A]

So you know about it? You're nodding.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

So is that. Is that a related. Is that a related. I mean, it sounds like they were doing. Attempting to do similar things on a sort of mass scale.

[B]

Yes. So the nudge unit and I guess what's been happening within the government is very much focused on applying behavioural science to public facing challenges. So it could be things within the nhs, like getting people to go to their appointments, for example. It's, I guess, different to the space that we're working in that we're focused on more private sector related challenges. I think what the government has done within the health behaviour space is absolutely brilliant and I think it's been an excellent catalyst for everything that has happened since that point in time.

[A]

I think it's brilliant. Well, this is good. So what sort of examples are you thinking about when you think it's brilliant?

[B]

So we are unknowingly, I guess, influenced by so much behavioral science every day that has come from within the government, from within the Behavioral Insights team.

[A]

This is slightly worrying, though. What are they getting us to do? Raf.

[B]

To reassure you, it is very difficult to nudge someone who actively does not want to do that behaviour. So it's not about manipulating people, it's about guiding people who might not have an incredibly strong opinion or motivation to do something in a way that's going to most positively impact them. So, for example, if we think about some of the work that might have been done in women's health, there are, I guess, phrases that can prompt a quite negative psychological response from, from people. So, like if you told a woman that she had to go and get a scrape, for example, it's a horrible word. It makes me just, just cringe. But those sorts of words and phrasing can be incredibly demotivating for people. But actually what we can do is reframe those situations. So to give you an example, to put it in context, if I said to you there are two recruiters that you could approach to help you find a role. The first recruiter has a statement on their website that says 90% of people who applied to a job were successful after 10 days. And then the other recruiter says only 10% of people were unsuccessful when they applied for a job after 10 days. Which of those two recruiters are you more likely to select to help you find a role? Is it 90%?

[A]

Very good question.

[B]

Job or 10% failed?

[A]

I'd be going for the 90% personally.

[B]

Yeah. Why would you choose that?

[A]

Because it'd be called Reid. Between now and the end of the year, reed.co.uk is giving away 1 million free job listings to employers across the UK. Whether you're filling dozens of roles over the next few months or looking for your next team member, right now, reed.co.uk can find them for free. No catch, no long term commitments, just more businesses Being able to find their perfect hire. Act quickly. These listings aren't free forever. Visit read.co.uk million job giveaway today and be part of 1,000,000 opportunities to love Mondays. But that. Because it feels positive. I mean, because they're going to do something helpful for me.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. So it's this positive framing. So it's the win versus the loss, but then it's also in the majority. So it's 90% versus 10%.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Obviously, if 90% are successful, 10% are still unsuccessful. But it's just about how we're framing that information. And that's essentially what behavioral science does, is it reframes information in a way that helps you make more informed choices and make better decisions off the back of it.

[A]

Right, so, Rafi, let's go back to Kauri Consulting. You said that you do mainly private sector type.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I mean, I don't know if you have clients you can talk about, but I'd be really interested in one or two examples. I mean, you just chose recruitment, obviously that got my attention, but things that you've been doing that you could share that would help us understand this even better.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. So our work within the private sector is all around trying to take these maybe quite niche, but also incredible insights that are often trapped in these heavy academic journals and applying them in a more practical sense. So one of the examples that I love, we. We did recently for Northern Rail and one of their challenges that they had was around changing perceptions of cleanliness on their trains and they were restricted by the current models of train that they were using, in that they couldn't necessarily change the structure or the environment of the train itself. So what they wanted to do was understand how do people perceive the train when they get on it and what factors within the train, whether it's customer influenced or the environment influence, affects how clean they think that train is. So we.

[A]

So clean isn't objective, it's subjective in this case, yes. So go on. So what happens next?

[B]

So what we typically do is we will conduct a behavioural audit to understand what are the things that are driving us to make decisions or what are the emotional responses that we are feeling that we are not necessarily aware of in that moment in time. Because one of the things that's incredibly important from a behavioural science perspective is the reason we don't always act in that rational, logical way is because we don't necessarily know why we're doing things and it's these more subconscious decisions that are taking place. So we use a range of different research techniques to help us understand what's actually influencing people. So we did that with our Northern Rail customers. And what we found was fascinating in that it's not necessarily the exact cleanliness of the train that impacts how clean people think it is, but there are so many other factors that will influence it, such as the number of people in the carriage. It could be whether it's been raining directly before you got on the train, there could be certain smells or scents that influence your behaviour. So, for example, the train company had tried out lots of different scents with their cleaning products for the toilets, and the actual ratings of hygiene for the toilets on the trains was incredibly low. So they were thinking, okay, what can we try? Is it a lemon scent? Is it more of the bleach scent? But obviously there's a mix between a pleasant smell and an overpowering smell, because things can be perceived as clean, but it can also make you think that it's not necessarily a nice environment to be in if it smells of bleach, for example. So what the research told us is that actually some of the scents that are that heavily influence our perceptions of cleanliness are things like lavender. So lavender actually puts you in a more relaxed state. And whilst lavender doesn't necessarily mean that things are more clean, if you are more calm as a person, your perception of your environment is that things are more calm and then things are more clean as a result. So it's not necessarily about always changing your physical environment, it's about might be about changing people's own energy or just perception of who they are within a particular space.

[A]

Did you go on these trains?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And were they clean?

[B]

For the most part, yes.

[A]

I don't know whether it smells of lavender looks horrendous or if it's a bit sort of clean, but your perception might vary because it's been raining or it's crowded.

[B]

I mean, it can absolutely change. And we audited lots of different types of trains to understand maybe what the differences were. And some of the other things that would affect that I was particularly, I guess, interested in was the types of light that were used. So if you use quite cold lighting, it can make it feel more clean, but it also makes it feel less comfortable. So, again, people don't actually enjoy the environment.

[A]

So bright blue, white light, bright blue.

[B]

Very, very intense. And actually, if it's a warmer light, it makes people feel more cozy and more comfortable. So people think it's more clean?

[A]

I think it's more clean when they're more comfortable, yes. More Relaxed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right, well, but it was clean.

[B]

It was clean. It was clean.

[A]

They're not misleading, but conning people?

[B]

No, not at all. Not at all. They are. They are cleaning the. The carriages as much as physically possible, but then you might have a passenger who leaves a banana skin on the table and then that throws everything out the window. Even if someone comes through to clean.

[A]

Up, they are regularly coming through trains, aren't they, with picking up rubbish?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

That's good. So that's a good example. What other typical problems have you encountered from your clients like that? Other challenges.

[B]

Other challenges. So one of my favorite challenges was actually working with Keep Brit and Tidy, and this was their challenge, was how do we get heavy smokers to stop dropping cigarette butts on the floor? And this, for me, I think, is such an interesting challenge, because when you look at smokers as a group of people, there is again, often a stigma that is attached to being a smoker, and I think that's becoming more and more of a thing. Lots of people have swapped from smoking to vaping. That's a whole different challenge. But often smokers are, I guess, put into a separate group and almost treated as outcasts because of smells, health, different motivations to non smokers. So when you. When you talk to smokers about why they might drop cigarette butts on the floor, how accurate or how truthful, their responses can really vary. And I think there's a couple of different reasons it could happen. It could be because they're not sure why they're doing it. It might be that they are embarrassed and they don't want to share that information and actually keep Britain tidy. I think are incredibly progressive in knowing that there is this gap between action and intention. So people don't always do what they say they're going to do. And that's when we have to use more of these subconscious methods to access that information. One of the things that came out of the research that I thought was so fascinating is that there is a term known as bin blindness, where when you smoke a cigarette, the nicotine actually hacks your brain and almost overrides it, so you are less aware of things in your direct surroundings.

[A]

Gives you bin blindness.

[B]

Yes. Yes. You're actually less likely to see the bins around you once you've had that rush of nicotine.

[A]

So how do you resolve that? Because you've got bin blindness. I've never heard this expression after smoking whatever it is, with a huge fog around you. Yeah. How do you get them to then put their stubs in the right place.

[B]

So we worked with VCP, which is Cowrie's parent group, and VCP. VCCP.

[A]

VCCP, yes.

[B]

Multiple Cs, but they are. Yeah, we're very, I think, lucky to be part of them, that this wonderful hub of creativity. And they worked to create a campaign to help make people more aware of the impact of littering cigarette butts. But what they wanted to do was feed into that some more of the psychology that could close the action intention gap that I mentioned before.

[A]

Littering generally really bothers me. I mean, especially out in beautiful parts of the country, people just throwing things out their car windows. Have you tried to do anything about that? Why do people do that? I don't understand it.

[B]

Well, exactly. I mean, this, that this is what we wanted to get to the heart of. Cigarette butts are the number one most littered item in the uk. When you drop a cigarette, but it will stay there for 14 years, so it's actually longer than the life of most dogs. That cigarette butt will remain.

[A]

That's how long does it take to break down.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And even then the microplastics will go into. Into the soil, into waterways.

[A]

So that's a terrible thing to do.

[B]

Terrible. And people have this, I guess, idea that often they will put cigarette butts into storm drains because they think out of sight, out of mind.

[A]

It's not, yeah, you're quiet, you just drop it down the drain. But that's even worse.

[B]

Yeah, even worse. It's blocking waterways, affecting wildlife, all of this stuff. But to, I guess, move away from the.

[A]

Where should you put it, a cigarette? Because it's not like the. There's places provided for that.

[B]

So what you're meant to do is stub it out. Normally there's a kind of spot on top of the bin that you can stub it out on and then you can actually put it into the bin. But there is this perception that putting things that have been on fire into bins will cause bin fires.

[A]

Well, that's what I was wondering. We can set fire to the bin.

[B]

Which I think it's a very fair assumption. But at the same time, if you've put it out properly, then it can.

[A]

Put it in the bin.

[B]

Other things are pocket ashtrays that are becoming more common. People can stub it out and carry it around. But then again, there are barriers where people think that, why would I want to carry around something that's dirty?

[A]

No, quite in my pocket. I can understand that.

[B]

But the thing that was fascinating about this piece of work Is we were able to pull apart different types of smokers. So we spoke to heavy smokers. And within this, we looked at not necessarily different demographic information, but we were looking at what are the shared behaviors that people have. And to do this, we ran a series of behavioral interviews, which sound similar to traditional interviews, but we're using slightly different techniques. So one of my favorites is facial expression analysis. And this is where we are looking for groups or. Sorry, we're looking for micro expressions in your face. And we're looking for groups of different facial muscles that are moving. And that's not to say it's a very clear movement, but it might be that there is small amounts of activity in your corrugated muscle in your brow, or it might be twitches in your.

[A]

It looks like corrugated iron in my case. So what does that tell you? The corrugated muscle.

[B]

So the corrugated muscle can, when it's paired with different muscle combinations, it can show a variety of different emotions. So there's a psychologist called Ekman who has created these different categories. And it could be that it's showing different levels of disgust or shame. It could be happiness. We've got 26.

[A]

So what's my face showing you at the moment?

[B]

Pure unadultered joy. That's absolute interesting.

[A]

Absolute focus and interest. No, I am very interested in this. But you studied what's called perceptual psychology, is that right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So that's what this is. Is that what we're talking about here? Partly or not?

[B]

Yes. So it's one of the many research techniques that we can use to help us understand more of the perceptual and social psychology. So we're trying to. What are more of the subconscious responses that people struggle to articulate that we can identify through looking at their facial expressions?

[A]

So what are they really thinking?

[B]

Yes, because they might be saying out loud, I've never seen a bin, or I would never drop a cigarette butt on the floor. But actually what their facial expression is saying, that there might be an element of guilt or shame perhaps that they're feeling instead, that contradicts. And that's what's really interesting, is where they're saying one thing, but they are feeling another. And that's where we start to dig a bit deeper to understand.

[A]

You must be a frightening person to live with. That's not exactly what's going on.

[B]

I am. I'm very fortunate that my partner is also a behavioral scientist.

[A]

That seems terrible at dinner parties. That seems entirely fair. That's good. So you obviously turn what you studied this Potential psychology into what you made a career out of? Yes, which is cool because a lot of people study things that they don't. I know, make a career out of.

[B]

I feel incredibly lucky actually that I get to use psychology in my day to day life. I think there are lots of people that study psychology that go into a variety of different careers, but I actually think it's one of the most flexible and useful tools that people can have in their back pocket. And a lot of the clients that we work with across research, across marketing, whatever area of the business they're in, there are so many people that say, I studied psychology. This absolutely fascinating, I love this. And we can start to reconnect that and bring that back into their.

[A]

So you think that's a good thing to study?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Has lots of application would seem, especially.

[B]

Now, wherever there are people, there are opportunities to use behavioral science to understand and then to influence. And I think that we will all benefit from having an understanding of what other people do and having that empathy and compassion for other people. So I don't think there's ever a reason to not use psychology.

[A]

You've worked for some big brands, carriers, I understand. I mean, do you want to reel off a few?

[B]

Sure. We have worked with Amazon, Tesco, EasyJet, HSBC, lots of big finance brands, all that, that are using behavioral science within their businesses.

[A]

So, so what's going through my mind is, and I'm not, don't want to put you on spot, but are you helping these big brands sell more stuff? Are you helping them do a better job for their customers or. I mean, I worry that you're using this sort of superpower of psychology to get people to do stuff, but if they didn't, you know, think twice, they wouldn't do or. I mean, it's, it's one of the ethics around this. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.

[B]

Yes. So we have a very, I guess, clear ethical framework that, that we use at Calri and we are also regulating.

[A]

What is that? How does that work?

[B]

So we've got a set of different principles that we would use. So to give you an example of some of them, we would only do to others as we would do to ourselves. So if there is a behavioural intervention that we would suggest for a client, it would have to be something that we would be comfortable doing at CalRI. So for example, one of the things we've implemented off the back of that is we did some work for News UK many years ago now and. Oh no, sorry, it was News corps. But we were working with them to help navigate the number of colleagues that were using sick days and pulling a sickie instead of actually using their holiday.

[A]

I like that. Navigate the number of colleagues. Navigate. When you mean investigate. Go on.

[B]

Helping to politely reduce. And I mean, there was lots of fascinating psychology behind why it was happening.

[A]

Why people were taking sick day.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Well, this is really interesting. So what did you find out?

[B]

So we were specifically focused on Australian employees. And. And what we found is that when employees have their holidays, they actually roll over from year to year, as opposed to many companies in the UK that might reset those days. So they would get to the end of their career, perhaps. Or they might leave to start a new job and they would have this bank of annual leave that they had saved up. So the company was having to shell out large.

[A]

You'd have to pay them for that.

[B]

Yes. But to avoid using that annual leave so they could store it up, they would chuck a sickie instead.

[A]

Oh, I see.

[B]

So they were using all of their sickness.

[A]

The company gave them an incentive to be sick.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because they could cash in at the end with their holiday.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

So one of the things that we did to. To help resolve that, because when people obviously don't take their holiday, as I'm sure you know, that it does lead to burnout and.

[A]

Yeah, we want people to take holiday.

[B]

That's right. Yeah, absolutely. It's a really positive thing for. For wellbeing. So instead, one of the interventions was to populate all of your holiday in the calendar at the start of the year. You then have the flexibility to move it around within the calendar. But it means that when you get to it, because you are defaulted into this behaviour, you're more likely to actually take it than if you.

[A]

And that's what happened, was it?

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Okay, that's a really interesting example.

[B]

Yes. And that's now one of the policies that we have at Calrie as well, to make sure that we are living by our own ethical code.

[A]

And then I understand in your how to Hack the Brain series, you sort of looked at different issues.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Give me a couple of examples of that.

[B]

What are some of my favorite ones? I mean, as, as part of the podcast, we, we look at the psychology behind decisions and then I have to go and do it in the. In the wild, in. In real life. So everything from how to complain in a restaurant.

[A]

Good. So talk us through that. So you. How do you complain in a restaurant?

[B]

So there are ways to make your complaints feel more valid. So if, for example, you need to request something that you feel might be asking too much, then there are ways to make yourself feel more human. And actually, I think this applies really well to a job situation as well. So there's something called the pratful effect, where if you do say that again, the pratful effect. Pratful, yes. Okay, so you're acting like a bit of a prat.

[A]

That's why I wondered if that's what it meant. Yeah, but. Okay, I thought maybe this is a scientific term, but it's not for us. You're acting as a bit of a prat. And then what happens?

[B]

So if you are absolutely perfect in a situation, then you actually come across as less human. Whereas if you use the pratfall effect, if you have a small flaw or inadequacy, then actually you come across as more genuine. So if I showed you, for example, a perfectly round cookie and I showed you one that maybe had some more bumpy edges, that looked perhaps slightly more organic, then people actually rate that cookie as more tasty and higher quality because it doesn't seem completely perfect and moulded.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So it's the same if you were in an interview and you showed absolutely no flaws at all, versus you might, you know, accidentally spill a little bit of your coffee. Again, it makes you feel slightly more human. So in a restaurant sense, one of the things that we did as part of the podcast, which will stay with me forever, is as the waitress came over, I had accidentally knocked a cup of water off of the table into my lap and was having to dab it up with napkins. And it was at that point that I asked her quite a ludicrous request for her to go and do something for me.

[A]

What was it?

[B]

It was. So the restaurant we were on was on a canal boat which had this lovely window in the ceiling. And my complaint was that there was someone in the building overlooking the boat who was staring at me.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

And I asked her to go and cover up the window on top of the boat, which.

[A]

Did she ask you to leave at this point?

[B]

I'm amazing.

[A]

Luckily, it wasn't me working there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So go on. She didn't. What did she do?

[B]

She went and did her best. It was a health and safety hazard.

[A]

Because you couldn't spill this water, you think?

[B]

Because I'd spilt this water.

[A]

Prattful. Was the trick pratful?

[B]

Yes. There were a range of other techniques and unusual requests from me. She was absolutely wonderful. And we did actually have a conversation with her Afterwards, to explain what we'd.

[A]

Been doing, she got high marks for customer attentiveness.

[B]

She was absolutely incredible.

[A]

Good tip.

[B]

Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

[A]

So. So one of your other pieces of advice was how to get a pay rise. I'm often asked to sort of opine on that, what's your take on how to get a pay rise?

[B]

So I think one of the key. Well, there's a couple of things that you can do, I guess, in the, in the preparation and build up to the conversation and then during the conversation itself. So one of the things I feel like all of my references around coffee perhaps, but when you meet someone new or when you are talking with someone that you've, I guess, known for a long time, if you have a warm drink in your hands, you actually feel more positively towards the person that you're talking to. So you attribute the warmth of that drink to. To the warmth of the.

[A]

So you bring your boss a coffee, do you?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Clever, isn't it?

[B]

You kick off that meeting with a drink for the other person.

[A]

Alarm. Alarm bell. Yeah. Never bring me a coffee normally. What's going to happen next then? Go on then, what you do.

[B]

So one of the other things that you can do, I guess is instead of talking about all of the things that you have done to, to justify your reason for, For a pay rise, you can again use the physical attributes of other things to demonstrate it. So one of the things that I did is I brought in the new brochures that I had just created and a heavy stack of them so that when they hit the table, you could almost hear the weight and effort that had gone into them that subconsciously communicated.

[A]

The physical manifestation of all the work you had done. Your contribution was there right in front of them.

[B]

Is actually something that I did for the first time when I was at university where my dissertation, when I printed it out, I printed it out on a thicker paper so it had a heavier gsm. And what that says is this is higher quality because it's thicker. And I also used a very specific font that when you use that type of font, people judge the writing to be more intelligent.

[A]

So, so, but this was your behavioral science perpetual, Your, your, your degree in psychology?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I mean, surely the examiner knows these tricks. Did it work? Did it work?

[B]

It.

[A]

Did you get a first class degree?

[B]

I got, I got, I definitely got a first for that piece of work. So.

[A]

So anyone listening? Paper, print and type around, what sort of font should we be looking out for? I think intelligent.

[B]

Yeah, it was a particular. I think it was one of the Baskerville fonts. Interestingly though, one of the things that can be most useful is to sometimes use a more simple font. So you might use a serif font for your title that taps into this idea of intelligence. But then if you use a sans serif font where it's not got all the legs and feet because it's easier to read, people think that you are communicating better. So it can work both ways.

[A]

Well, you are, I mean, practically. Yeah, absolutely, in practice. So that's very. So if, if you're in, in a sales job and you want to be successful, you're meeting customers, are there any sort of tips from this behavioral science world that you would give a salesperson?

[B]

Yes. So why don't I. I can bring it to life, maybe in a client example. So we do a lot of work with sky and one of the areas that we work in most is within their contact centers. And they have a wonderful team of people who almost act as their last line of defense. So if a customer has decided that they don't want sky anymore, then they can call up and say, please cancel this for me.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Obviously it's in Sky's best interest to try and have a quality conversation with the customer at that point to understand why they might be cancelling so that they can perhaps offer them something that might be more suitable for the customer. What's really interesting is we've got Martin Lewis obviously, you know, sharing all this really high quality advice.

[A]

Yes, well known Martin Lewis.

[B]

Well known Martin Lewis.

[A]

Good advice. Yeah.

[B]

And I love Martin Lewis. I think he's fantastic. But one of the, I guess, pieces of advice he'd given to sky customers was keep calling up because you'll always get a better offer. And that's not actually the case. That's not necessarily what's happening on the. On the other side.

[A]

Oh, so he'd been sort of giving a few tips to people.

[B]

Yes. So these customers were calling, getting a.

[A]

Lot of calls at this point.

[B]

Lots and lots of calls and lots of unhappy customers. Because the mechanics that he'd suggested weren't necessarily aligned with what was going on on the other side of the call. What often happens is because the customer is calling up trying to get a discount, that's what they're really focused on. And Sky's advisors fell into this trap of always just trying to find the best discount, but they are limited in the number that they have that they can give customers. So they have to make a call on what type of discount they're giving to what customer? Because they're so focused on discounts, they're not actually listening to what the customer needs, so they're just scrolling through their screen, passively listening to that customer instead of actually taking in what they're saying. So what we did is, again, we listened to thousands of different calls from these customers to identify what are the points of psychological friction. One of the points that came up time and time again is that there was this missed opportunity to communicate the value of Sky. And it could be their broadband, it could be mobile, it could be tv, but it's because they were really focused on discounts. So we created a playbook for the advisors to use and I can show a couple of examples of the techniques that we put in. But this was accompanied by some behavioural science training, because what we wanted to do wasn't just say, go and say this to the customer. We wanted them to understand the why that sits behind it and the science that is underpinning what their customers are thinking and why they're making those decisions. So it was about equipping them with this toolkit and knowledge of behavioural biases instead. So one of the things we hear time and time again in phone conversations, what we typically hear is you might call up and the adviser will say, hello, you're through to Rafay at Reed, how can I help you? And that customer will launch straight into whatever their problem is, and at some point, the adviser will have to reel them back in, ask them security information so they can actually help them. By that point, they might have forgotten what the problem is and they go around in this circle. And if the advisor is talking to a customer who might be quite irate or emotionally charged, then they've missed this opportunity to share any sort of cues of authority at the start of the call. So one of the things we know psychologically that's important is there are these subconscious cues of authority that can change our perceptions. So, for example, if you speak to a doctor that is wearing a lab coat and a stethoscope, we trust them more than a doctor that isn't wearing that. Or if a lawyer has certificates on the wall behind them, we trust them more than a lawyer that doesn't have certificates. So when we call up businesses like sky, we are looking for these cues of authority that we are through to a person that can help us. And what we changed the start of that conversation to instead was, hello, you're through Seraphi. I'm a customer loyalty specialist here at Sky. May I start by taking your name Please. And then the customer would share that and they would go on to say how they can help them, that they're in a specialist team and so on. So what we did instead is we would highlight the title and that would be a queue of authority. But we would also introduce this positive pause moment where instead of the customer launching into their issue, we would give them the opportunity to share their name. But that customer is getting less and less emotionally charged as we're slowly building authority. So the shift in dynamic changes on the call. And we know that by just using that one introduction that builds the authority of the advisor, the likelihood of retaining that customer Is increased by 13%. So it could be.

[A]

Gosh, that's a small thing. That's a big difference.

[B]

Small thing because they're more likely to trust your recommendations later on in the.

[A]

Call and it just improves everyone's experience.

[B]

Exactly. That is what it is.

[A]

Angry. And the person working there has. That's aggro.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. It's really important, especially in conversations that we're not just necessarily thinking about the customer but we're also thinking about the advisor as well because they're going to have a very different experience and that has a knock on impact on the customer.

[A]

And that's improved sales as a result. Yes, it has four Customer service and sales.

[B]

Customer service and sales. So the MPS has increased and the. I think, I believe the ROI for Sky is £12 million return for the.

[A]

So that was worth calling cowrie for.

[B]

It was. It was.

[A]

So. So these cues of authority, I'm interested in them. Are there others that you might share with us?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Interesting for all of us to learn are in business or in services.

[B]

Yes. So it might be if you were sending out a letter or perhaps improving your website, it would be about displaying visual cues such as awards that you may have won it. Let me try and think of some other good examples of cues of authority.

[A]

So these would be sort of on the brand side of things.

[B]

Yes. So that's more for brand. I think there are different types of cues that we can share with customers. Some of them might be more based around words and years of experience. So for example, since 2002. Or it could be in the visual cues.

[A]

So length of experience is considered psychologically quite good.

[B]

Is it? Yes, yes. Showing that you've been doing it for a long time and you've been doing it well. So it might be trust pilot ratings or star ratings, for example.

[A]

So those are worth sort of focusing on a bit.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely right. And I think that if you can communicate it visually, as opposed to just saying verbally or through a big block of text, that's even better because 50% of our cortex is dedicated to visual processing. So although what we're saying is important, what we see is equally important. And our brain finds it much, much easier to process images than words. So if you were to read a sentence, it would take you 300 milliseconds to read it, 400 milliseconds to understand it, whereas it's just 13 milliseconds to understand an image. So if you've got these visual cues of trustpilot or first dating, much easier.

[A]

So what, a picture in a thousand words was the old saying, wasn't it?

[B]

It's exactly that.

[A]

So it is, yeah. So using visual cues and visual signs of authority is really clever if you can build it into your brand.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Do you do brand work for clients?

[B]

We do. So some of the things that we. We do for our clients are around changing perceptions of brands. So it might be helping them to understand how do customers see their brand and is it aligned with what they want their brand essence to be?

[A]

Yeah. What are people saying about us? Sort of thing.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

Thinking about us.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So how do you dig into that?

[B]

So we use another one of our slightly unique testing methodologies to get there. So I don't know if you. Have you heard of an implicit response test before?

[A]

No. Go on.

[B]

So this is. It's a test that has previously been used to measure things like subconscious bias. So it was developed by the, you know, the amazing brainy people at Harvard. But essentially what they do is they get you to sort different phrases, words, images against different factors in a very short space of time. So what you might see is the brand logo appear in the center of the screen, and you have to sort it against like or dislike or expensive value. And that person must sort it within less than half a second. And the reason for that is because if we wait longer, our brain starts to justify the reason that we're doing it and we lose more of these subconscious responses. So they have to respond in a short space of time. And what we're looking for isn't necessarily just whether they agree or disagree, it's how quickly they agree or disagree.

[A]

So this is timed on a machine?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So you call it the implicit response test.

[B]

Implicit response test, yes.

[A]

And so you use that to evaluate what people feel about brands, I suppose, is it?

[B]

Yes. So we can see what their associations are. We can also test to see what might motivate them to use the brand or what might.

[A]

So is this surprise to your clients when you've come back with the results?

[B]

There's definitely tend to have a good idea. I think that there are some unexpected responses sometimes, mainly because businesses have traditionally, I guess lots of businesses have done research and they will interview their customers, they will survey customers. We've got data coming out of our ears in terms of what their customers are thinking and feeling and what they want. But because we're not tapping into more of these subconscious responses, we're often hearing what people think they should be saying or think are important. So I often talk about this value communication struggle where we ask customers what they think they will tell us. Typically one of three things. It might be ease, it might be convenience, it might be cost, but these are all really functional factors. So what brands do is they focus on those things, but then customers still don't see value. So we go around the loop again and we have to ask customers what the implicit response test does is it allows us to see what people are maybe thinking more explicitly. So those functional factors are still important, but actually there's these more emotional factors that are better indicators of value and loyalty. So it might be things like care or magic moments. It might be around how easy we've made a process for them to do. So once we start to combine these two things, then actually you get a much richer picture of how people perceive that brand and what would make them engage.

[A]

So any big surprises come out of this for any customers that you had to sort of tell them to sit down and prepare for some feedback?

[B]

I'm trying to think of some good ones. One of the ones that I don't think surprised me but probably wasn't what the client wanted to hear was a piece of work that we did for Tesco around uncovering what value meant for their customers. And we used all of these techniques to help us uncover what was important to their customers. And we mapped it against their current experience. And as you'll know, with Tesco, they focused incredibly hard on all of their club card pricing and discounts. So tapping into these functional factors around how can I get the best deal? But there was a glaring hole on the other side of it that were these more emotional factors that meant people were less likely to use Clubcard and made it easier for them to compare a Tesco with a Sainsbury's or an Aldi, for example. So it was really useful to identify the opportunities that they could use to differentiate themselves.

[A]

So what did you do with that information? How did they follow that up?

[B]

So we created a framework for Tesco which is built on probably about 100 different principles of behavioral science that they can then apply across their digital space, across their comms, the physical in store, but also their conversations. So it's this toolkit that is used across Tesco as a business to try and try and close the gap between the just having the functional factors that make the day to day experience and actually elevate it into this more emotional space.

[A]

So Rafi, you've now got AI to sort of play with in this space as well. Have you started using that and in what way have you have?

[B]

We have. So AI I think is, I mean it's growing incredibly quickly and we have seen an impact on our business in the last year just in terms of the ways that people are using it and I guess perhaps a misalignment with where maybe more of the behavioral principles come into play. So we are currently in the process of going through a repositioning. We're launching the new branding in a couple of weeks time, which is very exciting. But we are.

[A]

A new branding for your business?

[B]

New branding for Cowrie? Yes.

[A]

Still going to be called Cowrie though, is it?

[B]

Still Cowrie, still a consultancy but we are focusing more on how we can create behavioral intelligence for our clients. So I mentioned that we work a lot in contact centres.

[A]

So you're moving from behavioral science to behavioral intelligence?

[B]

Yes, still we are still human centered but now powered by AI. So we are helping clients in two ways. One is we are where they're already using AI, we're helping them to make sure that it is based on humans and how humans make decisions. But we are also incorporating AI into our services and products to help. Behavioral science is excellent at understanding how people think and make decisions, but what AI and data allows us to do is start to predict and look forward at what people will do and do that at scale. So I'm really excited about AI and the impact that it's going to have on, well, everything, but especially the behavioral.

[A]

Science space when you were talking about people's expressions and faces, I mean AI can read that too, can't it?

[B]

Yes, yes it can.

[A]

What do you think about that? Is that being applied or do you think it should be or it.

[B]

It is being applied and yes, definitely, I think a couple of years ago we had looked into using AI for this already because our team are amazing at what they do with facial expression analysis. But it is a very manual process and it is timely. Back then the algorithms weren't as accurate yet. So it was very difficult to just rely on AI to help us using that as a research technique. It has progressed immensely since that point. So very fast then very quickly and to a much greater degree of accuracy. So we are now using that to complement the tools that we have as well.

[A]

So complementing, not replacing.

[B]

Not replacing. No.

[A]

And so what do you think about the use of that in some interview situations?

[B]

I think it can be brilliant. So there are so many different ways that we can use AI in interviews. We can use it, again to complement a human interviewer and we can use it to measure facial expressions. We can also use it to create prompts that delve deeper into certain topics. So based on the live conversation that's happening, we can create the right questions that allow us to access even more information.

[A]

So AI is kind of listening and then things are Swiss.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So I could have this as an assistant right now.

[B]

You wouldn't have to think of any questions.

[A]

No, it's a. I like the idea of it complimenting, though.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

As a sort of. But I worry about it replacing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Machine rejecting someone because of an algorithm that said their facial expression was, you know. Sympathetic.

[B]

Exactly. And I feel like that's probably quite topical from a recruitment perspective.

[A]

It is, yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's becoming more and more topical. I hear it, or more that people have to do computerized interviews and then they're not progressed, which makes me anxious.

[B]

It does end. But I think there's a time and a place for AI led interviews, say, for example, to go back to one of the topics I mentioned earlier. If we're talking about something within health, that might be an uncomfortable topic for people to express. It's often easier to talk to.

[A]

Sure, that's a good application.

[B]

So there are positive examples. But I also think that it needs to be mediated by people and also trained by people to get there.

[A]

So what have you learned about sort of. I mean, you're obviously using AI and you're excited by it, which I think is good because it's going to be around. So that's probably making the most of it. How do you see it? Sort of fitting. And it's obviously very scalable alongside sort of human empathy. How do you make the two sort of marry?

[B]

I think that behavioral science and human influence has a massive role to play in the way that we use AI going forward. And I think AI has, as you said, it has progressed incredibly quickly, but I don't think that the human element has been considered enough at this point. And in the past few weeks we've seen lots of big AI businesses starting to recruit quite quickly for more behavioral scientists or people that can help inform it. And I personally.

[A]

Do you think they've realized that this is a bit of a, I think, I think, Achilles heel?

[B]

Yes. Well, there's, there's been the stuff in the news recently around, you know, ChatGPT acting as a therapist or, you know, acting as a person in a relationship for another human and at this point with the data that it's trained on, I don't think that that's ethical and ethical use of it and it's leading some really negative consequences. So I don't think that businesses have necessarily come to this conclusion by themselves and seen the importance. I think that things have unfortunately happened that have led to this need for it and I think that we can't just be having one behavioural scientist in a AI company. I think there needs to be a whole team of people who can help train and understand the way that people are making decisions and feed that in to help.

[A]

So any young people listening, becoming a behavioral scientist could be a good job for the future.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because all of these AI applications, it sounds like, will need some of this input.

[B]

Absolutely. I mean, we've got behavioral data scientists in our team that are, I guess, the perfect intersection of the two. So they've got an understanding of behavior and they're using data science to understand that at scale. So I think it's, it's an excellent area to get involved in.

[A]

So this is a practical step that businesses using AI should be taking. Yes, they're taking their business forward. So I'm interested you, as we get towards the end of our conversation, in where you see your business going, Kaori, how you hope to develop and grow it.

[B]

It's, it's, it's a good question and I guess off the back of all the work that we're doing at the moment, I, I hope that Kauri helps influence the AI space and I hope that we help our clients use AI in a more responsible way. But ultimately I think what will happen is we're going to be able to use behavioural science to reach a much larger population of people and to influence behaviour at a much greater scale to these much larger transformation programmes as opposed to the nudges that, that we saw.

[A]

If so, looking around, you know, both sort of public life and business challenges, what sort of, what sort of issues would you really like to get stuck into?

[B]

Oh my gosh. Well, there's the brands every day that Just drive me insane.

[A]

Yeah. What are they like? Who would you like to ring you up and say, please come and give us a hand? Why not share, Share. And then you. Maybe you get a call. I mean, I'm interested because you obviously have quite a lot of. You obviously think about this a lot and you think, well, I could change that, or we could change that with a few interventions. What, what sort of. You strike me as someone who might feel frustrated by things not working so well.

[B]

I. I do have a little bit of that and I think once you understand behavioral science or you're. You're open to behavioral science, you start to see it.

[A]

That's what I'm wondering. You know, once you know about it, you think.

[B]

I think. I think for me, it's the large tech companies that probably would benefit from it most. It's the people that are playing with AI tools that are most in need of it that I would like to fix. But saying that, I mean, it's everything from the way kitchens are designed, it's the handles on doors that you think they're a push and they're a pull. There are so many daily things in people's lives that could be easily improved. I think the people that have maybe been doing it for the longest, that are unaware of it, are the people that are within advertising because they're trying to tap into these more emotional responses. But I also think that there is so much further that they could potentially push things to tap into more of these subconscious biases that we have. So more behaviorally intelligent advertising, I think, would be fascinating.

[A]

Well, that sounds like an interesting niche, more behaviorally intelligent advertising. So. But that's. So that would be advertising that makes people feel more strongly about things. Is it.

[B]

A lot of the players within the distinctiveness space are focused on more around how your brand might stand out against other brands. What our tool looks at are three different levers. One is how distinct it is and how different. One is how memorable it is. But the other one is the different types of emotions that it's driving. And you need all three to make sure that you are standing out against competitors and you're front of mind when it comes to choices.

[A]

And what sort of emotions do you want to be driving?

[B]

Lots of people think that it is exclusively happy emotions, but that's interestingly not the case. What you actually want is a more complex set of emotions where you can use happy emotions like humour to place people in a relaxed state. But then there might be some more complicated emotions like guilt or shame or Disgust that when used abstractly like that probably don't seem that positive. But actually it gets people to question themselves and what they're doing and it allows them to explore things that they maybe wouldn't have before. So I think the more complex emotional set you can get, the more memorable things become and then the more it stands out against other brands. So it's an important factor to consider.

[A]

And that's where you see yourself helping in terms of that formulation.

[B]

So we can measure how people score across those factors and then we've got the world's largest team of neuro designers who can create new experiences based on how our brain processes sensory information. So we can then redesign it to score higher across those different factors.

[A]

So do you work alongside advertising professionals then to do that or is it.

[B]

Yes. Yes. So we'll often partner with VCCP to do that or we might partner with our clients preferred agency that they're using at that time. But what we will do is we will create conceptual designs of how the behavioral science comes to life and we will explain the science that sits behind it, that why factor. And then we can partner with them to, to actually embed it and bring it to life.

[A]

Because in previous conversations on the podcast, we've talked about marketing and people having strong feelings about brands and it's often because they've had a bad experience in the past. So how do you, how do you turn that around?

[B]

Well, so when people have tried a brand.

[A]

Yeah. Something's not gone well or something's not a bad experience, they seem to, they seem to love. There seems to be a love hate thing going on.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Is it possible to convert hate to love? I suppose it is. Situation.

[B]

It is. And actually I was doing some research around this the, the other day because I think it aligns really closely with trust of, of a brand. And when something goes wrong, there's often a tendency for businesses to want to sweep it under the carpet. So say, for example, they've had a data leak and they might not want to address it publicly. But actually one of the best opportunities to build trust is when something has gone wrong and you handle that situation well and that's how to get people back on side. So there's a lot of psychology around constructing the perfect apology and when to apologize.

[A]

Perfect apology.

[B]

A perfect apology. There is such a thing as a perfect apology.

[A]

That would be very useful for everyone to know. What is a perfect apology?

[B]

It's, it's, it's constructed of lots of different things, but one is around having a genuine Apology where you acknowledge the thing that you have done and saying sorry for it. I think sorry gets missed off a lot. There's a tendency.

[A]

Well, that's kind of key in apology isn't.

[B]

It's the core part of the apology. But you'd be surprised.

[A]

So you have to mean it. It's general, genuine. You have to say sorry.

[B]

It does. And what we often talk about is not necessarily we try and shift conversations from being more empathetic to being more compassionate where we're not necessarily placing ourselves in the customer's shoes and taking on their emotional burden. What we're trying to do instead is acknowledge the emotional response that we might have caused and then signposting them to the things that we can directly do to resolve it for them. So there's this three step process where it's a genuine apology, an acknowledgement of the emotions and the impact and then what you're doing to rectify that in that moment. And that's essentially what leads to the best, most felt apology.

[A]

But you have to do something about it ultimately.

[B]

You can't just sweep it under the carpet. It doesn't work to just brush it under.

[A]

No, I mean there is a. I mean, I think I've often thought, you know, when something goes wrong, it's an opportunity to build a relationship. Although it might be painful.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I mean, I've seen that in my own career we've had things go wrong and ultimately got to know the customer better when we've sought to fix it.

[B]

Yeah, it's better to be better to be perceived as trustworthy rather than just be completely opaque and to have no transparency around what might have happened.

[A]

Right. Oh, that's really useful to know. Are there any other sort of tools like that that you would be well.

[B]

Within the, within the trust space? One of the things we often talk about is something known as the trust equation.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Where if you, when you speak to a customer for the first time, or say if you were even speaking to a recruiter for the first time, you want people to trust you. But during that first interaction, it's very rare that that person would say I trust them. It's more likely they'd say they seem trustworthy. So there are different factors that can influence how trustworthy you might seem. So some of the things are around credibility and having those cues of authority that we talked about. One is consistency. So are you doing what you said you were going to do? Are you doing it time and time again? And the other one is reliability. But all of that is underpinned by your ego. So if you are perceived to be doing things for yourself as opposed to others, then actually it dramatically decreases your perceived trustworthiness. So if you think about. I won't delve into in too much detail, but if you think about the world of politicians, there are some people that will come across as more trustworthy than others because they've built up their credibility as a politician. They're consistent in the things that they're saying, and actually they are doing it for the people. Whereas there are other politicians, without mentioning any names, who might have quite large egos and are very much doing things for themselves. So it dramatically affects the way.

[A]

I wonder if people listening are thinking of the same people. It depends on your politics, I guess.

[B]

That's what I'm not talking about.

[A]

It's not a group that you necessarily gravitate towards for truth, trustworthiness.

[B]

But.

[A]

But I see what you mean.

[B]

Yes, but I mean, it all plays into the AI again. So AI obviously is still learning and we might be. There was something I typed in the other day and it was. I was almost testing it to see what it said, and it gave me a completely ludicrous answer. And I tried to correct it and say, well, no, it's this. And it was like, oh, of course. Thank you for. For correcting me.

[A]

But there was a good apology.

[B]

It was lovely apology. I felt seen, I felt heard. But I still was slightly concerned that it got it wrong.

[A]

Yeah. So this is a whole new world we're navigating, isn't it? It is these new technologies. But you seem fairly optimistic. Is that fair?

[B]

I am. I mean, I. I always think that there is a healthy level of fear that comes with new technology and, and growth. But I also think that there is a world of opportunity. I like to be optimistic in my view of humanity. And there are so many negative ways that this new technology could be used. But there are also so many positive ways. And it's already being applied. And I think it's really wonderful and exciting.

[A]

Well, that's fantastic. I think that's a really good place to conclude our conversation. Thanks so much, Rafi, for coming in to talk to me. I always end with two questions. They're the same two questions for everybody. And the first question is, what gets you up on a Monday morning?

[B]

On a Monday, apart from the coffee. I. I actually. I like to think it's the, The. The research that, that we do. I love uncovering something new that might be slightly counterintuitive or we like to call it uncommon sense a lot of the time, but being able to apply those in real world situations that genuinely improve people's lives and experiences, that's for me. I love my job.

[A]

That's very good. I'm very pleased to hear that. Seems like a sort of curiosity that gets you up.

[B]

It is.

[A]

Uncommon sense.

[B]

Uncommon sense. Learning new things. That's what drives me.

[A]

Fantastic. And my last question is, where do you see yourself in five years time?

[B]

Five years time. I would love for, I'd love to still be at calri. I would love for us to be leading globally. We're already, I think, the leading behavioral science consultancy in the private sector in the uk. But I would love for us to be global and continuing to be powered by AI to get there. So I think it's an exploration of the things that we're just starting out on now and I would like to see them fully formed and, and thriving.

[A]

Well, I wish you every success with that. I'd like to see that too. And maybe you'll come back and talk to me.

[B]

I would love that.

[A]

Thank you. Thanks so much for coming in to talk to me.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Thank you, Rafi, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reed, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reid, Rafi and Cowrie Consulting, all links are in the show notes. See you next time.