← James Reed: all about business
James Reed: all about business
55. Fame, failure & a 12-stone weight loss: The journey to 2 Michelin stars | Tom Kerridge
00:50:38
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. My guest today is Tom Kerridge, one of Britain's best loved chefs. Known for his Michelin starred pubs, best selling cookbooks and television work, Tom's journey has taken him from high pressure kitchens to leading one of the most respected names in modern British hospitality. We'll be talking about how he's grown from one pub to a portfolio of venues. The lessons he's learned about leadership and resilience and how he's managed to stay authentic while becoming a household name. Today on All About Business, I'm delighted to be talking to Tom Kerridge, who's actually welcomed me to his wonderful bar and grill in the Corinthia Hotel in London. We're in magnificent surroundings here with lots of people enjoying themselves around us and if you're thinking of somewhere to go at Christmas to have a good meal, I couldn't recommend Kerridge's Bar and Grill more highly. It's a splendid place and I've eaten here many times, so I'm looking forward very much to talking to you, Tom. We're sitting here in this splendid room in this magnificent hotel. You have a very successful restaurant here, but let's roll back the clock. How did this all begin?
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B
A little bit by accident. I ended up in a kitchen. When I was 18 years old. I needed a job washing up. So I grew up on a estate in Gloucester. A single parent family. My mum and dad split up when I was 11 and I just kind of floated about, didn't do very much. School was, I loved going to school, but it really wasn't my thing. That was back in the day when school and exams were all about being taught stuff. Remembering it and then writing it down again in exam means that you're intelligent and actually, you know, we all know moving forward that vocational skills, being proactive about what you do isn't just about remembering academic facts and figures, it's actually about being able to be involved in stuff, being, being involved in, in connecting with, whether it's with business, whether it's with people, whether it's the actual skill set that you actually want to learn a trade, for example. But so school was. It wasn't. I Loved it. I loved hanging out with my mates, but there was no plans for A levels and university. It was like, what can I do? And I ended up in a kitchen when I was 18 years old, needing. Needing money, needed a job and I ended up there washing up. That though, that was at a place called the Painswick Hotel.
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A
Oh, I know Painswick. Near Stroud.
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B
Yeah, exactly, near Stroud.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So I'm from Gloucester, so it was just over the hill. And I went into there, started washing up. And that was the first point of. There was an energy and an excitement and a buzz and this kind of electric kind of current flowing through the kitchen, but also throughout the whole building. In terms of what Hospitality and the people that worked in hospitality and that. That I instantly connected with it. Now, even on a quieter day, there was a sen. People doing things that were passion. There was a sense of things that were. Of people coming into the business that were passionate. You know, whether it was wine suppliers or fruit and veg suppliers or a butcher or. It was a whole collection of so many different peoples as. As well. It was a completely eclectic, diverse mix of. You know, if you come from an estate in Gloucester that's mostly working class kids and their parents, all of a sudden you come into a world where, irrespective of race, religion, sexuality, educational background, economic background, you were all in it because you loved doing it. All of a sudden it was a. And also ages and experiences and world travel and so many different people that you can learn from. So straight away, there was this kitchen buzz that I just thoroughly fell in love with. And it wasn't really from a love of food, although I've always loved food. It was a love of the space and the energy and the environment that grabbed me.
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A
That's so interesting. So that was really infectious. You really caught the bug, in a sense. How did you move from washing dishes to becoming obviously a very accomplished chef? Someone must have taken you under their wing. Did they?
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B
Yeah, kind of. I mean, what happens in hospitality? Like many other things, we have something called battlefield promotion.
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A
Battlefield promotion. I like the sound of that.
- [04:30]
B
Normally it means when somebody gets fired, walks out in the middle of service or doesn't come back the next day, you're now the pastry chef, right? Like, it was like it was a movement from washing up to, can you help do the starters and the salads? Can you do. And then all of a sudden it starts becoming. And you start becoming a valued member of the team. If you say yes and work hard to stuff and you just do it you become a team member, you become a team player, and you become. Even if what you're doing in terms of the greater skill set of, you know, running a restaurant or being a head chef is minimal in terms of what you think you're doing, it actually has huge impact to the rest of the team because they know and trust that that one job can be done properly by that person. That means that's something else I haven't got to worry about. And they know it's a level and a standard.
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A
So even at 18, you can building a reputation for yourself, a place in a team, and gradually go up through battlefield promotion, as you put it, and progress.
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B
Very easy to understand. They work in that kind of brigade system. There's a clear pathway to. From commie chef to chef to party to junior sous chef, sous chef, head chef. You know, you keep going through skill sets, understanding, and then you go through sections, and there's defined really by four sections, the kind of like the starters, the garnishes, the main course and the pastry. I mean, you can separate it a little bit more than that. And there are obviously different ladders in the. In the rung to the top that you can put in, but that's essentially it. So you can break it. It's quite easy to understand. Okay, I need to learn that, and I can cook at that level and I can go. So you can. You can forge a career path very easily with just a little bit of understanding.
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A
So that hasn't changed, has it, really? That's still the same now as it was when you started out as a sort of timeless aspects of that.
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B
Exactly.
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A
So any young person listening, I mean, you've given them a kind of blueprint for how to get started and get going and be the next Tom Kerridge in a way.
- [06:22]
B
Exactly. That you can understand. You know, you can get into a kitchen, you can learn, you can work hard. Yes. You do need mentors. I mean, you mentioned it there. You do need people to take you under their wing. You do need people to explain, and you do need people. It's a bit like, you know, I'm sure you might, or everybody might remember a teacher that they liked very much at school, the one person that they connected with, whether it was the drama teacher, the art teacher, the PE teacher, the physics teacher, whatever it was. But, you know, there's normally a chef or two that you go out. Actually, I understand their ethos, what they want, what they're looking for, and their standards of what they want to achieve. Now, you might cook better than them, or you might do something different. But the way that they run a kitchen or the way that they hold themselves, there's always that sort of influence that comes in.
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A
Yeah. And it's incumbent upon us, as sort of more sort of established people in the workplace, to keep doing that for other. Other young people as they come through, I guess.
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B
Yeah. I think encouragement is huge for every industry. Hospitality massively now is. We do need, you know, the skill set shortage, but you do constantly need, you know, I think it's the same in every business. You need to encourage a workforce to make personal and professional choices that help them grow.
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A
Yeah, no, I agree. So you progressed, obviously, you worked in some other restaurants. After painsuit, where did you go after that?
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B
I went to Colcote Manor, which at that point had a mission in Star. Then I moved to somewhere else in. In the west country called the Country Elephant, which is a beautiful little individual restaurant, just two of us in the kitchen. Then I moved into London when I was around about 21, to a place called the Capital Hotel, which, as a mission, Star. Fantastic, brilliant chefs, brilliant cooking. And all of a sudden that realization that London is a very eclectic, exciting, wonderful place to live, learn, see people. You become. You learn a lot more about yourself. Traveling to and from work for a longer time on a tube or being, you know, you suddenly start growing up in your early 20s in a. In a. Really excited. But also, you remember that was the early to mid-90s, where the Brit pop scene and British cookery and the art world and everything was kicking off. You know, there was like, Oasis. There was Mark A Pierre White, there was Damien Hurst. There was this, like.
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A
It was a real cultural moment, wasn't it?
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B
A magical moment. It was so special to be a young chef in and amongst it and a part of it.
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A
Another question that sort of comes to mind is, what advice, Tom, might you give to your younger self, you know, starting out again in your career?
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B
Yeah, I think don't get so hung up at the beginning on what you think is a mistake. Just learn from it really quickly, fail fast and go, okay. Learn from it real quick. Because sometimes if you dwell on the mistake, and I know that's all about a learning curve and you learn. Actually, I shouldn't have worried about that so much because it didn't really matter. The one bit I could. You could go back and say is that really doesn't matter. Don't worry about it. Don't dwell on it. Tomorrow's another day. Get on with it. Like, forget it. It's Done now, you can't change the past, but you can, you can change the future, you can work towards something. What's, what's done is done, move on.
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A
So as long as you learn from.
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B
It, you're saying, yeah, don't do it again, idiot. That's probably why I said, don't do that again, idiot.
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A
So when did you branch out on your own and start your own business?
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B
In 2005.
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A
So that was a little bit later.
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B
Yeah, yeah, a lot later. So I worked through different stuff, spaces, worked my way up to being a head chef in somewhere. Spent a long time cooking as a sous chef level. I very much enjoyed and loved that supportive role of helping another head chef create and build and understand. I would build the team around them, write the rotors, understand the costings and build all of that and try to be the right hand man, the supportive role. And I took that as quite a serious learning curve more than probably anywhere else before. Then I took on the first head chef position and then from there it went from taking that to where was.
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A
Your first head chef?
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B
So my first head chef position was at Adlards, which was in Norwich. So I left London, we moved to Norwich. We were there for about 18 months and then it got to a point where it was, it was about opening our own space, myself and my wife and she was, you know, she's always worked for herself, she's an artist and has always been about self employment. We wanted to create something and build somewhere and open a space that meant that I could cook and she could make uncompromised art and that was the end. That was all we wanted. It wasn't about owning numerous sites or being on telly or writing books or making money.
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A
Well, that all happened subsequently.
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B
Yeah, that all happened subsequently because we're very fortunate. We both follow our own preferred trajectory of passion path to get to where we want to be. And you know, she's gone on and won the global art award for sculpture. Her biggest piece is at the front of the Dubai Opera House. She's got a seller. She had a huge show in Palm beach at the beginning this year she's got a big. She's in Miami freeze later. Yeah, later this year. So there's a lot going on for us. So yeah.
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A
This Christmas your giving can make double the difference. From the 2nd to the 9th of December through biggive.org any donation you make to over 1,500 charities will be doubled while match funds last. Whether it's supporting those with cancer, giving children the Best start in life or helping people facing homelessness. Whatever charity you choose to give to your gift can go twice as far in the Big Give Christmas challenge. Visit biggive.org between the 2nd and 9th of December and make double the difference this Christmas. Thank you. This new project became a huge success. It became the first gastropub with two Michelin stars, as I understand it.
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B
That's right.
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A
So how did you approach that? How did that come about? What was your sort of philosophy, I suppose when you opened it to begin with?
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B
Yeah, it was about trying to create somewhere where we'd like to be on our days off. And it was using all that, utilizing the skill set that I'd learned in fine dining restaurants. I put in inverted brackets, you know, like that sense of, you know, this is how you cook, this is what you do, and these are the way that you make stocks and sauces and all of that skill set, ability, refined cookery. But putting it into a pub environment where braising is slow cooking, and then treating the ingredients with the same level and respect, whether it's a shin of beef or a fillet of beef, it still comes in the same animal. Yeah, it's still actually interesting. We can make this chin of beef absolutely beautiful. And then just trying to remove what everybody's perception of Michelin star dining was, of this pomp and ceremony. Just trying to get rid of that and trying to create a space that becomes warm and welcoming and people feel that you have a good. I. I love Temples of Gastronomy, but I hate a hush dining room. I hate that.
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A
Yes.
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B
With that sense where nobody was too.
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A
Scared to talk, too reverential, laugh about.
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B
A joke out loudly. How dare you have fun in a restaurant? It's like, no, we want people to enjoy themselves, make noise, have fun, have a laugh. And a lot of that is to do with, you know, people are used to us. They don't ask anymore. What's the dress code? What do you mean, a dress code? Just.
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A
Right.
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B
Clothes, actually, you know, like, just wear.
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A
Some clothes would be good.
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B
Yeah. Yes, exactly. Some clothes.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
You know, just come, have a nice time, enjoy yourselves. We'll take care of some really good cooking. You come and enjoy yourself. Order some beer, wine, whatever you want, have a nice time and leave and then tell your mates and come back. And that was kind of the preference and the process for setting it up and then those standards kind of. That you learn over years of, I suppose, honing a professional, getting, having and taking on personal responsibility and professionalism that you Want to replicate, you know, your own personal standards into what you do with that fortune. A mission star came along within 10 months and two stars came along in 2013. So 2012. Sorry, so.
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A
Yeah, well, within the first seven years.
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B
Yeah, seven years.
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A
From one to seven. So this is the hand and flowers which is in Marlow.
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B
In Marlow.
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A
But then you've also got, I think the coach in Marlow, which is also.
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B
Michelin coach in Marlow as a star.
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A
Must be well fed in Marlowe. Lots of happy people. I imagine it's a beautiful place on the river. I don't know, for people who don't know. Describe it a little bit.
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B
Yeah, it's a beautiful, like quintessential English town on the River Thames, but it's also one of those lovely towns that everyone feels very proud of. They're very supportive of entrepreneurial businesses, small boutique, whether it's coffee shops or clothes shops or hairdressers or.
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A
Oh, so there's a whole ecosystem.
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B
There's a real supportive network of small businesses and community. And it's built on people that are, you know, things like. It's built on schools and sports and communities and, you know, events that the time comes together on. Really, really lovely.
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A
Did you know that before you went there or did you discover that later?
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B
You could sense it as one of those times that when you arrive in it, you could sense it's a nice, special little town, but nowhere, nowhere near as much as we continue to, to work. And you felt that it's actually, it's hugely supportive. People are very, very kind, very supportive. Very. They get behind people, you know.
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A
Yeah. And I think that's something that all towns could do in a way. I mean, there's nothing to stop every place being more supportive of entrepreneurs and local businesses and young people getting going, you know, than done. It's a wealthy town.
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B
It's a wealthy town, you know. You know, there are, there, there are pockets of poverty and there are pockets of people that are in need there, obviously. But actually, you know, it is a town that has, it kind of operates in a smaller little bubble.
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A
So you, you obviously, with the hand and flowers had a very unique, high quality restaurant and then you open some more.
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B
Yeah.
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A
How do you manage that process and how did you make sure you were still getting what you wanted from your different chefs, different teams, different locations?
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B
It's all taken time. Nothing has been rushed. It's all been organic growth. So the hand of flowers. It took us 10 years before we opened the second site. So the second site which was the coach. That was when we had a head chef and a suit. There was myself, a head chef and a sous chef. And a sous chef was incredibly good, very well respected within the group. Incredibly super intelligent, brilliant chef, a proper grown up. And you go, well, we're getting to the point that that sous chef is going to go and be a head chef somewhere else. Oh, yeah, he may as well do.
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A
It as well find a site.
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B
So we opened the site down the road and he moved into that space. So then we have two great head chefs in the company, which then proved to be fantastic because he took it on, took ownership of it pretty much in terms of the daily running and making it work, and managed to win a Michelin star for it himself. And he's now, he then opened here, he opened Kerridges bar and Grill for us seven years ago. So he moved from there to here and then in the last year he's left here, he's in the company for nearly 14 years and opened his own restaurant called Starling Bistro and has won a Michelin star there for himself with his own business. So that's wonderful to see that, that skill set, that entrepreneurial spirit of working with us alongside to then opening his own business and doing incredibly well makes you feel very proud.
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A
Yeah, it's great. And so your ethos is really to bring people up through your organization, help them learn and grow.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
And then run things for you.
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B
Each chef in the business has been in the business for a long time. So Tom, who's head chef here, was sous chef under Nick before he left. Tom's been with us for six and a half years. Sarah, who's head chef of the Hand, has been in the company now for 10, nearly 11 years. Tom, who's head chef at the Chalk, has been in the company for 12.
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A
And that's quite unusual in hospitality, isn't it, that long tenure?
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B
It is unusual, but it also means that because we allow them to join us as young kids, allow them to grow, allow them to make mistakes, it's not the end of the world, irrespective of what anybody thinks. And it could be someone could have the worst meal and it could be that we've absolutely ruined their night and we've got something completely wrong. And if we do do that, we put our hands up, we absolutely will own that. But it is only a plate of food. What's the worst that can happen? Okay, you've had a really bad meal. We're really sorry. Don't pay for it. In fact, don't pay for it and come back again on us. Let's show you what we can get it right. Essentially all we've done is got steak wrong.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Like, let's not get overly upset about it. I understand it. We can solve this problem. We're not heart surgeons, we're not rocket scientists. We're not. We're not doing anything.
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A
That's well put.
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B
We're not doing anything of major catastrophic trophic effect if it goes wrong.
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A
As long as you don't poison people, I suppose.
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B
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, those are. Yeah, obviously that would be quite a big bad. But the reality is that you can allow people to make decisions within your company when the knock on effect essentially isn't that bad. They are solvable problems, you know, and.
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A
You give people the autonomy to do that.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
Permission to do that.
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B
And that in turn helps build business. Because yes, for every mistake that's made, we can rectify those mistakes and they grow from that. There's no real mistake, actually, if you, if you're, if we put you in a position of authority and a position of managing, that's because we know that you can deal with this even if you don't believe you can do it. And you only learn from mistakes. I'm sure you say, and you must hear it all the time.
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A
Yeah, yeah, I've learned from plenty myself.
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B
Yeah, you learn from mistakes. So they'll learn if something's gone wrong. Well, I don't do that again. I'll learn and we'll do something different next time. So, you know, the business ethos has always been built on, you know, young professionals wanting to ask questions and push themselves and allowing them to grow.
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A
So you, you said that and just repeated it. You take on young professional youngsters. What do you look for in those youngsters when they first join?
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B
Attitude. It's an attitude. It's funny, I put an Instagram post out recently for a job position and we were looking for. We're looking for a sous chef for the Hand of Flowers. We have found one now.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But we've gone through all the normal processes and we've gone through all the advertising, we've gone through all the agencies, we've gone through all the. And actually I went, well, let's do something different here. So I put an Instagram post out and I said, if your first question is, how much do I get paid? When is. How many days off do I get? You're not the right person for this job.
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A
Yeah.
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B
What we want is passionate people that want to do it now. That didn't say you're going to get paid badly.
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A
No.
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B
In fact, you get paid very well. And that didn't say you're not going to have any time off.
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A
No.
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B
So the amount of negative noise of people going, oh, rubbish, pain, oh, were.
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A
You getting a lot of heat back for that? Were you interested?
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B
But actually we got more, we got way better transaction in terms of quality candidate. Because if you're in this industry, this is one that should be led by passion. It should be about, actually, I want to do this job because. Not because I'm going to get earned more than everywhere else, it's because I love doing it and I can grow and I can be somebody. I can be something and somebody. So it was a really interesting thing.
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A
To go through, which was interesting how it divided people.
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B
Yeah, divided people. I took a lot of heat on it. Well, it's worth it.
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A
By the salary. You got your sous chef.
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B
Don't worry, the salary is. The salary is good. It's a good salary and they do get their days off, but it wasn't their first question. And the person that's taken that job, they've come and they've come from a background that actually, they've taken the position, we've given them the job, they've come from somebody. They're not from a Michelin star background, but they have the attitude, they have said, I am the right person for this job. They've done the interview, they've done the trial shifts, they've done the process and they've told us, I can do this, I am the right person.
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A
They want to learn.
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B
And you go, this is the person. That's the person. That's what we were looking for. And it's an energy and it's an enthusiasm. It's the right way to look at a vocational career. This isn't a job like, it can be treated like a job, but if you're in hospitality and you want to be a really good chef, it's not a job, it's a way of life. It is who you are, it defines you. You are a chef. You don't go to work as a chef. You are that person.
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A
You are a chef.
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B
You are a chef.
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A
Yeah, no, I like that. And you are also an author. We've got some of your books. And you're also a TV media personality.
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B
Yeah, I am.
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A
Thirteen books.
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B
Thirteen books, yeah. Thirteen books.
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A
Why do you do so many books?
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B
Well, there's always been. It's funny, we. We've now come to the end of our book deal.
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A
Right.
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B
And the Bloomsbury want to do more, but I don't want to do anymore. I've run out.
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A
Put your content out for a minute.
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B
We don't need. And there's always been a process and a reason to do it. We've got the ones of us. One was a diet of weight loss process that I went on that.
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A
Well, that was a personal journey of.
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B
Your own journey that I went. If that helps one person, that's amazing. Let's just write the recipes down and how I did it, I'll do it. One is. Was in connection with a television show. And you go, great. Okay, well, let's show. And it showcased British produce and amazing. And this one here is because I love doing outdoor cookery and barbecue stuff. And you go, these are all great.
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A
And they all have a particular purpose.
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B
Particular purpose. Then when the ideas have started coming, why don't you write an air fryer book? Why don't you write, you know. Yeah.
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A
And you just go, oh, didn't feel passionate about it.
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B
I don't feel passionate. This is just ticking a box for a. A budgetary boardroom system for, you know, looking at p. L's some publisher. Yeah, that's not right. And then the publishers go, yeah, no, you're right. Let's. Let's just chill. Yeah, don't worry.
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A
Wait until you. You feel moved to do the next one.
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B
I'm not going to change publisher. I love working with Bloomsbury. It's all amazing. They're great. We're, you know, we have a wonderful relationship. Let's not just force it. Let's just wait. So books are written because they're a passion point. Otherwise, again, like restaurants, they don't work unless you're.
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A
Yes.
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B
Authentic about them.
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A
No, I write books and I really like your take on that. I'm just finishing one off that's coming out in November, which I'll give you.
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B
Amazing. Thank you.
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A
But it's called Karma Capitalism, Shameless. Plug everyone. Your book here, the dopamine diet, was a journey you went on because you lost, I believe, 12 stone in weight, which is like the weight of a man.
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B
Yeah, I lost it. I lost a chef. I lost a whole. I lost a whole member of the kitchen brigade.
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A
Did you?
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B
Yeah, yeah. So what happened?
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A
What was the motivation for that? Age.
- [23:58]
B
It's an age process. I was getting towards 40 years old. And when you get to 40, it's very much a point of life reflection. You go, actually, what have I achieved? Where have I done. Where am I heading? Where am I going? And I was in a. So I was in a hugely driven process and my business has been successful because I, I dealt with an escape route which through alcohol. So I pushed and pushed really hard. I would do 18, 20 hour days and then I would escape into booze for the remainder of that day and then go back to work again. It was very much this 6am till midnight and then midnight till 2:30.
- [24:33]
A
So you weren't sleeping?
- [24:34]
B
No, not very much. I was heavily drinking and, and every day and every night and. But I loved it. I don't regret that guy or that bit.
- [24:42]
A
That was who you were at that part of your life.
- [24:43]
B
And I needed that to drive that business, that singular restaurant at that point. It was the hand of flowers to drive that, that passion, to drive that standard, to drive that energy, to be that person. It was so like a ball of energy, a whirlwind, this big boulder of chaos and mayhem and drive and force of nature that I pulled loads of people with me that then I needed. You escape it through alcohol. And then.
- [25:13]
A
Well, you can't do that forever, right?
- [25:14]
B
You can't do it forever. You go, okay, we're at. Because it got to a point, we had two mission starts. I had cookery books out, I was on television. And you go, hold on a minute. I got. But I can't, I'm not, I can't be this guy. It's gonna, it's gonna do me for. Actually, it was one of my best friends I've known Since I was 14 who said to me, because he's the same age, and he was like, yeah, 40. Yeah, yeah. The way halfway to death you go, what? He goes, yeah, if you think you live till 80, that's it. We're halfway there. And you're like, right, all right, okay. And then you think, well, hold on a minute. If I keep going like this, it might be sooner. Yeah, he's going to be sooner. There's no way. I'm not going to do 50. Right? You've got to make a decision. You've got to make a change. So I stopped, I stopped drinking. Change my whole life, change it, like, I'd say overnight.
- [25:58]
A
So you stopped drinking? Totally.
- [26:00]
B
Yeah, totally. Since then? Yeah, I planned. It took about three to four months. I didn't stop the way I was drinking and just knew there was a date, right. So I had a date in a position where I went, right, that's where I'm going to. That's where I'm Gonna stop. And I got to that date and I stopped and I stopped. And in that first year I fell off the wagon four times. So it was a, it was a, it was a mid January date, 2013. And then by the November of 2013, that was the last time I've had a drink. So it's now. Yeah, we're 12 years with 12 years sober pretty much this month. Yeah.
- [26:31]
A
Did you go to meetings, might I ask?
- [26:33]
B
No, I worked out for myself. I like everything. I work at aga. Well, yeah, I know what's wrong. I know what I have to do. This is what I've got to do. Let's do it. Like, you know, you can work it out. You go, you have to have strength with it.
- [26:44]
A
But then you obviously prepared a different diet for yourself as well.
- [26:48]
B
Yeah, I removed carbohydrates from a professional.
- [26:50]
A
And you still do that?
- [26:52]
B
No, I, I go to the gym every day or I try to go five, six times a week and I, and I, I try to eat a lot more sensibly. I don't eat as much, but I will have, I will have carbohydrates, I will have a sandwich. I will have something. I will. But I, I just much more in control of non chaotic eating. No, like, yeah, I mean I'm not doing cheese on toast at 3, 3am After I've done 20 cans of Stellar anymore. Like it's a way better place to be.
- [27:18]
A
So you go, sounds, yeah, better.
- [27:19]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought you're gonna say sounds fun.
- [27:23]
A
I stopped drinking a while ago as well. I was just thinking the headache you might get with 20k.
- [27:28]
B
Yeah. But it was for me, it was.
- [27:29]
A
Fun at the time for me, a.
- [27:31]
B
Professional point of view. So how do you take things out of your diet? How do you make but still operate as a professional chef? And you go, well, actually carbitures are quite often the bread, the pasta, the potato, the rice. They're, they're quite often vehicles for flavor. They're the thing that. And you go, well actually that means I can still, I can still cook in a professional manner. I can still make things work. I can still drive all flavor profiles of dishes and with an understanding and not have to worry about. I know there's chips that come with it. Well, you don't have that you don't like. So when you're driving flavors forward and being in that professional kitchen, it's a lot easier to do rather than calorie counting because you don't come to restaurants a calorie account. You come Here because it's lovely. So how do I continually work and process dishes on a professional basis without trying to. So I did a low carbohydrate diet for two. Two. Best part, two years. I lost 10 and a half, 12 up to 12 stone.
- [28:23]
A
Through that route?
- [28:23]
B
Yeah, through that route. Booze is a big thing. But also through that route. Yeah. And training. And then I'd swam every day. I swam a mile every day. I decided to get in the pool and just make myself do that. And then I changed. My world now is so different. I'm in a different space all the time, everywhere. So there's never. I've never got the consistency of a swimming pool. So I changed to the gym. So maybe the last six or seven years it's all been about lifting weights. So it's now. So I focus on the numbers, on the weights and so I always have to find something to ever do.
- [28:54]
A
Boxing training.
- [28:55]
B
Now I thought of it, but no, it's. I like. I like the. I like the weights, I like. I like the solitude of. Sometimes you go in the morning or the evening, depends on the diary. But most times it's normally morning. I'll do. Yeah, anytime from half five, 6am but sometimes tonight will be. I. I'll end up probably doing an 11 o' clock one in the garage at home. So, like, really?
- [29:16]
A
So you go home at 11 o' clock at night?
- [29:18]
B
Yeah, I'll still do what I'll do.
- [29:20]
A
So you're really disciplined around.
- [29:21]
B
Yeah, I have to. Otherwise. Otherwise it's good for my head. It's good clarity if it just helps someone. So I'll do a late one tonight and then I'll do an early one tomorrow. So sometimes I'll do one and then.
- [29:33]
A
The impression I'm getting, Tom, is you've got a huge amount of energy. You must have to, you know, carry yourself through all the things you're doing at once.
- [29:41]
B
I don't know that my body has, but my brain has.
- [29:43]
A
You've got a very active mind.
- [29:44]
B
Yeah, so I work with. So I work like. So it's dealing with my wife, like it says, it's exhausting. We've just done 25 years of marriage. She's going, yes. I say, well done.
- [29:54]
A
I hope you celebrated it.
- [29:56]
B
25. Yeah, yeah. Well, we went to the library. It was magic.
- [29:58]
A
Oh, very good.
- [29:59]
B
It was amazing. Well done. 24. You must be exhausted. She went, Yes.
- [30:02]
A
I was going to ask you where you'd go out.
- [30:05]
B
Yeah. So it's kind of. So it's an adhd brain that is constantly worrying and moving. I have to find something. If I'm not like twiddling my fingers or doing something or spinning a spoon or thinking of something or being. Yeah, it's a constant.
- [30:17]
A
Well, you're not the first guest on our podcast who said that. I mean, I think it's quite common amongst entrepreneurs and I'm massively sewing kitchens because.
- [30:26]
B
And kitchens why? Kitchen neurodiversity.
- [30:29]
A
Because.
- [30:30]
B
So whether it's from an ADHD or even slightly autistic perspective that hyper focus. So the noise of a kitchen where there's huge amounts of things going on to. Somebody who isn't neurodivergent walks into a kitchen, they see chaos and you see mayhem. Actually, if you've got an ADHD brain, it's actually. It's calm in space. It's amazing. You can.
- [30:50]
A
It feels like home.
- [30:53]
B
Calmness in the chaos of it all. And you can go with. And then for an autistic structure and brain, you can find hyper focus on going, okay, that's where I'm going to go and that's what I'm going to do. This is my. This is my particular skill set job now. I'm going to do macaroons for two hours and that's what I'm going to do it. Every single one is perfect. Perfect and everything. So there's a huge amount of neurodiversity that goes on in kitchens and they're. They're places of solitude and greatness for people. Most. Most chefs that have made it to the top have some form of addictive or neurodiverse quality that drops into their life. You can exceed. It's a superpower in a kitchen.
- [31:30]
A
Yeah. I think neurodiversity is a superpower in all sorts of aspects of life that we're sort of waking up to now. Yeah.
- [31:36]
B
Which is why schooling at that particular point of gonia. Read that book. Remember it? Write it down again. It's like, what?
- [31:40]
A
What? Yeah.
- [31:41]
B
I mean, I want to do something we need.
- [31:43]
A
Exactly. Well, now I'm encouraging people to do things with their hands because AI is taking a lot of the jobs away. That.
- [31:49]
B
Yeah, yeah. They might. It might help with recipe writing, but it still needs someone to cook it.
- [31:54]
A
I like that Might help with recipe writing. It needs someone to cook it. It's certainly done. Can't cook for you. So. So you've developed this business in terms of several different locations. You're using different brands or. But you've obviously got Kerridge Bar and Grill.
- [32:10]
B
Yeah.
- [32:10]
A
Is that Something you're going to be developing are you going to open more of or how do you think of it, the business? Strategically, I suppose.
- [32:16]
B
Seven years this has been here and you always think restaurants are always they, they work when you have individually care, heart and soul into them. Yeah. Unless you're creating a concept which is something very different.
- [32:27]
A
But we've seen that a bit, haven't we? You know, things like the ivy being opened up all over the place. Yeah, that's a concept.
- [32:33]
B
Is it consistent in what they do in terms of interior design and you know, the food that you're going to get, there's no fluctuation in standards and levels and you know what you're having. Whereas individual restaurants, they're very important. Their success is people keep coming back to them because they feel they're an individual space and they're looked after by staff that care and, and care about the environment. And every point might have a touch point like my wife's sculptures in the middle of the room or different bits of art or you know, tables or chairs that have been developed in a particular fashion or a way. And you know, this is personal. It's personal and all of those things make a big difference. So. And each site we try to make. So the hand of flowers is the first one which is a two mission star space and that's, you know, straight away from, from, you know, my heart, the heart and soul of me and Beth. And then the coach has been a development of that was we wanted that to be the first pub to win ambitious star with Sky Sports on. And it was. And then we got.
- [33:29]
A
Was that the goal?
- [33:30]
B
Yeah, it was, yeah, that was solely the goal.
- [33:33]
A
Who was playing when they awarded it?
- [33:35]
B
Yeah, to be honest, I can't remember. But we have Sky Sports on and there's little tellies in there. No sound right. It's just like they're on in the background whilst you know, you're eating. So it wins a star. Then we've got butcher's, tap and grill which is just all about cuts of meat. A bit like the, like the meat counter here we have here which is our London based kind of bistro. Like if you were to do a big brasserie style, but actually the food is a lot more refined than that. But the room, the noise, the energy when you look at the high ceilings and it's great and you go, what a, what a beautiful restaurant and a brilliant space. And then the Chalk, which is another. Which is a Chelsea led, I suppose residential community pub that's just off The Kings Road.
- [34:18]
A
Right.
- [34:19]
B
You know, which is. Has individual cookery skill set. That's coming from Tom, who's the head chef at the Hand. He's there. He's. He's been in the company for 12 years. So.
- [34:27]
A
Right. So you know you're going to have a good.
- [34:29]
B
Each one is individual, so there's no.
- [34:31]
A
So you're not interested in concept rollouts for yourself. You want. You're more interested in the personal individual.
- [34:37]
B
Never say never. But the idea, the concept has to come. I haven't got the finances to put that together. So the concept would have to come from a big finance company or a big financially backed hospitality company. And then the concept would have to be the correct one that you could go, okay, it might be fish and chips or it might be burgers or it might be a, A particular start. It might be a pie shop or it might be. Yeah, but it would have to be something that you can roll out, that you would be proud of. It's the same everywhere else. It'd have to be more of a branded concept as opposed to. You can't have people expect to see you in it. Now, I'm never in any of my restaurants. I am. Yeah, but we're sat here now. Somebody at the Hand of flowers is going, well, he's never here. He's not here today. Well, no. And somebody at the Hand of flowers.
- [35:23]
A
Can'T be everywhere at once.
- [35:24]
B
And somebody at the Coach is going, well, he's not here today. So I am in all my restaurants. I'm just not there all the time.
- [35:29]
A
Now.
- [35:29]
B
I wouldn't want to do a branded concept that gets rolled out and people expect to see me in there because you're just never going to be in there. So never say never until.
- [35:38]
A
That's interesting. That's a challenge that comes with growing a business. You can't be as close to everyone in it. You don't necessarily know everyone who works in it, and it's probably particularly so in your line of work. Whereas, as you say, personal involves passion and.
- [35:51]
B
Yeah.
- [35:52]
A
A way of life.
- [35:53]
B
There's 200, 250 people within the company and my, my managing director, my pa have both been with. Pa's been with me for 15 years. Maryland's been with us for 10. You know, and these people have tried and trusted managing. A general manager in Marlowe, Lourdes has been with us for 18 years. So it's all built on people that all understand the DNA. We're all in it together. We all built it together. May well have My name on the front of the book and the name of the restaurant. But actually, it's all of us that have built this collective force and brand and, I suppose, restaurant group together. So you can't ever be everywhere at once. You do need to understand and learn to trust other people in the business to do things for you. You have to know your own weaknesses, the things that you're rubbish at, or find someone who's good at it. Let them do that, you know, and the things that you're not so interested in. If somebody else is really interested in that, let them do it. Let them, you know, be a part of it. That doesn't mean to, say, shirk responsibility, but if there are people in those businesses that are good at just certain, certain things, let them do it.
- [36:56]
A
That's delegating, isn't it?
- [36:57]
B
Yeah. Giving people the freedom delegation and having 250 people and building that team of people is really important. We do a big party every year, summer party. We shut everywhere and everyone comes to our house. So they come to our house every year and we have everybody there. So it feels like it's a part of something from all.
- [37:12]
A
Like a family.
- [37:13]
B
Yeah, exactly. So they all feel collectively part of something and they've been invited to our house. It all makes it feel like it's a nice thing to do. We're all in it together.
- [37:21]
A
Yeah. No, that's great. How. Sort of stepping out of that a little bit. How have tastes changed in terms of what people want to eat and what they enjoy from when you started to now, you know, over the last 20, 25 years?
- [37:32]
B
Yeah. Well, fashion and fads in food and restaurants and cookery changes all the time, and it makes. It makes the British food seem incredibly eclectic and really exciting. When I first started cooking, it was all about French classic cuisine cooked with British ingredients, but it's now kind of grown and adapted. And if you think we're one of the most multicultural, rich, diverse, eclectic countries in the world, and we're onto that third, fourth, fifth generation Sri Lankan Indian, Pakistani, West Indian, like, you know, African nations where that those food influences are heavily coming into the way that we cook. And as British chefs and as British society, there's so many different influences. We're like mango magpie. We're like a nation of magpies. Well, that's really. No, well, I'll take some chili with that, and I'll take some of that. I don't know.
- [38:22]
A
That makes an exciting place to cook and eat.
- [38:24]
B
Yeah, exactly. And it really does. And it makes it wonderful. So as those flavors and profiles grow and pubs probably are one of the most amazing versions of that because there aren't any other restaurants. If you go to France and, and, or Greece or Italy where you'll go, right, this is an Italian restaurant and does pasta and pizza in Italy and this is a Spanish restaurant that would do paella and it would do fantastic kind of like grilled stuff. And you know, here in Greece we have these fantastic beautiful cook like kleftiko or you know, slow cooked dishes or kebab style dishes. But the British pub, no other global cuisine, no other cuisine is like it. Where you will go, okay, well we might have a Korean spice mackerel dish as a starter, then we might have a lambooner as a main course and then we might as well sticky toffee pudding for dessert. You're going, well, we go on Korea, India, like uk like not all pubs.
- [39:15]
A
Are like that though. Yours obviously a lot more mix of that. Yeah, no, that's exciting.
- [39:20]
B
You go, that makes it super exciting. Amazing and brilliant and beautiful. And that's where it has changed massively, that food scene over the last 20, 30 years.
- [39:29]
A
What, so what are the challenges for you as a chef, business owner, operator now?
- [39:35]
B
Tax. Taxation like everything.
- [39:37]
A
Well, there's national insurance in Greece, national insurance.
- [39:39]
B
VAT is the biggest thing in hospitality. The rest of Europe sits at anywhere between 8 and 12% in terms of VAT. Yeah, in, in the UK it's at 20% and that's a massive difference. So we're, it's the most taxed industry from front end taxes across the board, from whether it's, whether it's nic, whether it's vat, whether it's tax on alcohol, whether it's, you know, everything that's got corporation, everything that comes in is hugely taxed with no backup. What we need to do is see a VAT relief. That would make a big, big difference on this industry. You know that 8 to 10% difference will be the difference between hospitality venues. Not only just, I mean not many.
- [40:23]
A
They did that for a bit after the pandemic, didn't they? Did it make a big difference?
- [40:26]
B
Huge. The industry had a sense of relief. It could operate. It worked. It meant that pay rises situate the difference between when I first started to now is when I first started there was no such thing as a minimum wage and there's no such thing as minimum hours worked. Now that's hugely involved. When I first started working, you were doing 75, 80 hour weeks and you're Getting paid really badly now, that is not the way forward. Right. We are. It's right that there is a minimum wage and there's. Right that people are paid per hour and that infrastructure comes in and the hours and the time off that people get, all of that is as course, correct. However, the percentage margins where. Where hospitality industry used to operate at about 30, 30, 30 staff cost. Now all of a sudden, because the food prices, inflation and you can't charge more to the guests, many places are operating in a wage bill at 50, 55%.
- [41:18]
A
That's not of total cost.
- [41:20]
B
Of total cost. Now, that now is not sustainable. It doesn't work. And the only way that restaurants and pubs and bars and coffee shops or sandwich places can make any money is what they charge you for the plate of food going across the other side. Well, all of a sudden, if you take 20% of that away, like, all of it, like, and the wage bill has gone up, that's where it cripples. You need to readdress those margins, release 10% from the VAT. That means that those wage bills will sit still. That means that everybody could get paid properly. That means the industries can survive. The way it's getting squeezed at the moment, industry is closing it and closing it and closing it and closing it because people can just not afford to operate. Even the busiest places that look absolutely packed and they generate revenue does not mean that they are generating profit. You could be. You could be a hugely busy restaurant and still be losing thousands of pounds a month, like.
- [42:09]
A
And the huge amount of work and effort that goes into that, it doesn't feel right or fair.
- [42:14]
B
It's run by passion, it's run by passionate people. No one's asking to make loads of money out of the industry. What we're asking for is the industry to just exist and survive, right? And the only problem that we have with it is it's not. Sorry, it's not. It's not like. It's not like British Steel or British Coal or. It's not like. So once it's gone, it's gone. If every, if every publican, every pub, every restaurant, every bar, every shutter today, like, that's the end of the industry. It's not in two weeks time it'd be reopened because we all want to go out, we all want to do it and there's loads of people out there that go, I could run a pub and a restaurant. It's a different industry. It's got, it's got infinite amount of people that want to eat out and drink and enjoy themselves. And it's got infinite amount of people that want to own the spaces, irrespective of whether it makes money or not. But they're not making money. It is one of those industries that is on this precipice of falling off, off like British steel, coal, wherever.
- [43:08]
A
But also it creates a lot of jobs and it gives a lot of opportunities to younger people.
- [43:13]
B
It's the fifth biggest employer in the UK in terms of what it brings in. And then if you think of the, the knock on industry with it, farming, agriculture, travel, tourism, all of those things that are added into hospitality, on top of it generates so much and it's used in our lives.
- [43:31]
A
So if you were Chancellor, if you were Rachel Reeves and you've got the budget coming up at the end of November, what would you do then, Tom.
- [43:37]
B
What would you reduce VAT to 10%.
- [43:39]
A
To 10% to 10%. You think that would really make a difference?
- [43:42]
B
A huge amount. Because businesses would be able to operate, they would be able to keep going, they would be able to move, they would be able to think forward. They might even make a profit, which means growth. You generate growth. It's a short, it's a, it's a long term answer to. It's not going to, it's not going to generate any money short term, but longer term.
- [44:00]
A
Cost of money short term, yeah, but long term.
- [44:03]
B
But it generates jobs. It generates.
- [44:05]
A
And then they pay income tax to people with jobs, tourism and things like that.
- [44:10]
B
It will come, it does come in. The knock on effect of it will be a positive one. So, yeah, my biggest call always to government, no matter who's in charge. And this isn't just this government, this is a knock on of the last 15 years, irrespective of who's in charge.
- [44:23]
A
Well, taxes have just been going up, haven't they? So they've only been going in one direction.
- [44:27]
B
Industry is often looked over like and is seen as secondary.
- [44:30]
A
Yeah. So is there someone who's a sort of champion for the industry or.
- [44:36]
B
Part of our problem is there's lots of voices.
- [44:38]
A
Lots of voices. There's not a trade association.
- [44:40]
B
We also haven't got a Minister of hospitality. Right. This is something else that we call for. We need, we, we need a frontbedge Minister of Hospitality that could sit there speaking to the Business Secretary and saying, actually this is what needs to go on. So it. But it needs somebody to understand the industry and it needs somebody to be.
- [44:56]
A
That seems like a good idea to me.
- [44:59]
B
If you have a Minister of Hospitality you need a ministry, you know, and then it becomes a secondary thing. And I get it and I get all of these problems. I do. I do understand. I am somebody who has a much more socialistic viewpoint in terms of. This country is built on a workforce. You know, I get all of the people that work here, within this building, within this hotel, come to work. They have to travel, they're on their days off because they work weekends. They have to be able to try and see a doctor or a dental appointment. They have to be able to. Their kids have to have some, you know, an education system that works. All of these. We have to build solidity for a workforce. So trying to raise revenue to help people, I absolutely understand. But at the same point, you can't just blanket all business with the same. You have to look at different industries in different ways. So from a hospitality perspective, a reduction in VAT will also help a workforce and growth.
- [45:52]
A
Well, here, here to that. What next for you, for your business? I'm feeling, you know, you've got a lot on your mind, a lot going on.
- [46:01]
B
There's always those things like, what are.
- [46:03]
A
You thinking about doing next?
- [46:04]
B
Well, I don't know. I'm always thinking about what should we do now and then. I think we haven't got any money. We can't do it. There's no point.
- [46:08]
A
And everywhere because of what we've just been talking about.
- [46:10]
B
Exactly. And we need to generate business in spaces if things need to work and businesses need to operate and they need to operate correctly and we need to. So there's so much concentration on trying to operate the places that we have. I genuinely don't believe that next year is. There's not green shoots of growth coming through. It's going to be another. It may be even more difficult year next year. So how do you keep building or just maintaining, keeping the show on the road, foundations that you already have and not let them get eroded and crumbled? So that's probably the first business point of view, I think then on a personal nature, you always have to be. We're very lucky in our partnerships with Marks and Spencers and the way that we work in food development through them. We work very hard with that. From a media perspective, you're always looking at different opportunities to film and do things that you enjoy doing. We also find ourselves with a voice. When you. When you write books and you come on television, you find yourself with a voice that has to represent an industry. Yeah.
- [47:11]
A
You have a profile.
- [47:12]
B
Yeah. That you have to use in the right way whether it's British farming, whether it's to help the industry, whether it's to help. I mean I come from a background of free school meals when it comes to, you know, trying to help disadvantage and more I suppose vulnerable economic people in a more vulnerable economic situation. So you always find there's always something. I'm always trying to do something. But from a business profile and perspective we are not actively looking at expansion.
- [47:40]
A
Right. But it sounds like there you've got a lot of things that you can turn your energy and talent to make a difference. Yeah, there is. And I wish you every success with that, Tom.
- [47:49]
B
Thank you.
- [47:53]
A
So I think that's a good place to finish the formal part of our discussion. I always ask two questions at the end.
- [47:59]
B
Yes. My.
- [48:00]
A
The first one is what gets you up on a Monday morning?
- [48:05]
B
Like I've never had a Monday morning feeling and that's. I count that as so lucky because we have that vocational job that you're always doing something. It's something exciting. I also moving on from when we just had the hand of flowers and it was just me driving it to now being in multi site businesses. Author, television presenter, all of those sort of different things that drop in. There's no routine or no structure. So every day is something new. So I never really have a Monday morning. So what gets me up is just going to see what the day brings. I'm super excited. You know, I'm very lucky. I'm 52 years old and my world has always been about food. Whether it's talking about it, writing about it, cooking it, building a restaurant around it. So I get up on Monday, food gets me up on Monday.
- [48:48]
A
Food gets you up every day?
- [48:49]
B
Food gets me up every day.
- [48:51]
A
Yeah, that's good. And lastly, this is an interview question from my book why you 101 interview questions you'll never fear again.
- [48:58]
B
Yes.
- [48:59]
A
And it's where do you see yourself in five years time?
- [49:02]
B
Yeah, I mean it's quite a good question. It's like one of those standard classic interview questions in your job. I love saying that but I genuinely would like to be in a position where we're just much more, we're in a more comfortable economic situation within the business and it does take up to five years for things to turn around.
- [49:25]
A
Sure.
- [49:25]
B
It's not just something that happens overnight. So I see myself still at the head of, I suppose driving the businesses forward, seeing personal professional growth within our group in the world of hospitality, maybe with a couple more weekends off in a year would be in a year. That would go down well from a family perspective, maybe.
- [49:49]
A
Well, I very much hope you get those weekends off and achieve all those other objectives. Thanks so much for talking to me. It's a real pleasure for me being here in this buzzing environment and wish you continued success.
- [49:59]
B
Tom, thank you for your continued support as well.
- [50:02]
A
I'm looking forward to coming eating here at Christmas with my colleagues. A huge thank you to Tom Kerridge for joining me today and for sharing such honest insights into the world of food business and brand building. I'm your host, James Reid, Chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to learn more about Tom's restaurants, cookbooks or upcoming projects, you'll find all the links in the show notes. Thank you for listening. See you next time.