← James Reed: all about business
James Reed: all about business
58. Behind the doors of Downton Abbey: Managing the 1,300-year-old Highclere Castle | Lady Carnarvon
00:57:35
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. What does it take to run and evolve a 1300 year old heritage estate in a modern world? Today on All About Business, I'm joined by Lady Carnarvon, the custodian of Highclere Castle, best known globally as the home of Downton Abbey. We'll be exploring how she manages heritage, hospitality, farming, restoration and brand reputation, and how she's transforming Highclere into to a sustainable business for the future. Well, today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to welcome Fiona, Lady Carnarvon. You're the 8th Countess of Carnarvon and best known as the lady of Highclere.
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B
Castle, which is the lady of the real Downton Abbey.
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A
The lady of the real Downton Abbey. I couldn't have said it better myself and obviously that was a hugely popular television show. But you also run a very substantial business at Highclere and I remember listening to the radio about two or three winters ago and you were on it was in December, talking about some of the things you had coming up. And I thought at the time, this is a serious enterprise and you're definitely a serious entrepreneur. So I'm delighted you've come in to talk to me today. And for those people listening who only really know Highclere through Downton Abbey or as a result of Downton Abbey. Can you tell us a little bit to begin with, Fiona, about? Well, sort of describe the business if you like, as it is today, what's there, what are you managing?
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B
Well, today Heike is really a hospitality heritage business. So we employ about 60 full time people and in the summer another 100, 150 part time people who help us over our busy period, plus on the farm or extra pairs of hands in the garden. A mixture of interns, all of whom obviously paid two who are probably more senior members of staff who are in their late 80s. I'm not sure whether anyone's 90 yet, but it's the whole gamut of the community and it's about welcoming people and making them happy. We are cooking and feeding 1200 people a day for 60 to 70 days a year, which is quite a lot, and managing the general public and seeing what goes wrong. So planning and preparation, that is at the heart of it and business strategy. And then out of that, we have guided tours. So we have people at Highclere for. Probably for three or four days of every week and more in the summer throughout the year.
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A
Three or four days of every week throughout the year. So.
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B
And then much more in the summer, almost continuous. So, yeah, we're very busy now with Christmas.
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Right.
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B
So.
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A
And what. What are the main sort of activities running into Christmas that you would.
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B
Well, I started doing a big Christmas offering at Highclere beforehand. It was more about charity. I used to do some charity days. Then I sat next to a trustee from Blenheim and he said, fiona, half Blenheim's profits come from Christmas. So I thought, call, blimey, write. Get going, girls. So I ended up writing a book, Christmas at Highclere. And from that, peeling off the different events that make Christmas special to. So there's obviously food and there's carols and there's evening parties and daytime parties. So just trying to offer about six different events. And then by complete chance, I ended up meeting a man called Gerald Dickens, who's the great grandson of Charles Dickens, and he comes for two days, just the 18th and 19th of December every year, and he performs a Christmas carol. So one man.
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A
I want to see that already. What you have, Charles Dickens is great.
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B
In the saloon and it's so special. He comes down the stairs, he looks just like you'd imagine Charles Dickens, and he bangs his gong. Not quite like that, saying, Marley is dead, and off we go. But it's just entirely magical. And I think everyone who sits there, you know, as the light glimmers down, I don't like turning the lights on and then we all go for supper afterwards. Right. It is entirely wonderful.
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A
Imagine this is a sellout. Is it?
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B
Actually, it's the most expensive event. It's the fewest people. It sells out almost within a week. I mean, I'm trying to be like Glaston Bridge. I was just thinking, sell out before anything happens.
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So people queuing up. That sounds fantastic.
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B
It is.
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And when you said you were talking, talking to the trustee from Blenheim, you mean Blenheim Palace? Oh, I mean, where they have the big Christmas fair, isn't it? There's a huge. I saw a big Ferris wheel and thing going when I drove past.
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B
And I find that quite scary because there's an outlay of millions, which I don't have. You know, we don't have any trust fund, we don't have any Obviously, pot of gold. We stand there in our cotton socks at the start of each month thinking how we're going to bring in enough revenue to pay, firstly the salaries and then secondly the other variable and or fixed costs, depending where we are at the start of in the month of the year. So it's just Jordy and I are trying to be entrepreneurial, but having said that, again, it's about planning and preparation. So I will put out my Christmas tickets to sell in April of each year and they would have been sold out by September. Then I see if I can squeeze a few more people in. I have something called Friends of Highclere, which is designed to take people behind the scenes and I reserve some tickets for them as well. So there's layers of different ways of entertaining people and having some Christmas teas. And one of our team dressed up as Father Christmas so some people can have tea with Santa Claus, which is always popular. But we're not so much a children enterprise, we are slightly older. It's when the children aren't around, having tea with your granny, your sisters, your cousins, people sometimes book the same day every year. It's magic.
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A
Right, so you mentioned behind the scenes tours. What's available for people who want to see behind the scenes?
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B
So Friends of Highclere was a different enterprise. Many again, large stately homes have various charities to try to raise money to support them. And I looked into that, James, but it seemed to take more money to more lawyers to set up various charitable bodies than to actually just, actually, sadly, just work. So I thought, having investigated it, I would rather do something which gave people some value. Friends of Highclere came about because I went to a Tutankhamun exhibition and they kindly showed me round out of hours. It was utterly magical. And then they said, would you like to sit down, have some 3D glasses and have a 3D experience, whatever it was called Tutankhamun. And I said, where was this? This was in London about. Just before COVID actually, literally about a week or two before. And I thought, well, not really, but I must be polite and say, yes, that'd be lovely. Yes, please. So I went and sat down in the chair and put on these 3D glasses and I was blown away. I couldn't remember anything else that I'd seen for the whole day. So I thought, great, well, perhaps that's what I can set up at Highclip. So I managed to find a team who could do 3D filming for me and create these virtual reality videos, each of which takes sort of 10 days to download. It's quite a complicated edit. And nor can you edit things together. It's one take at a time. Or you hear the moaning as I come out, because I've got it wrong. And. And then. So we have uploaded those. I have friends on Friday, we have special events, we have a book club. So we have different levels of subscriptions.
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Subscription platforms to raise money already, from heritage hospitality to sort of virtual reality. And it's an interesting job. And would you explain why you're interested in Tutankhamun? Because that's a very. A very important part of the story.
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B
Downton Abbey and Tutankhamun in one home, Highclere Castle. So we are so lucky. And Geordie and I created an exhibition to celebrate the discovery of Tutankhamun, because my husband, Geordie's great grandfather discovered the tomb of Tutankhamun in 1922 with Howard Carter. So it was almost beyond belief what they found. And sadly, Geordi's great grandfather died. He effectively gave his life when he was out in Egypt. So we're left with the legacy and what he found, but also the very important fact that nothing from Tutankhamun came back to Highclere. We have the discovery and the story of the discovery, but everything stayed in Cairo. And luckily for us, he wrote in a letter to Howard Carter, I think everything should stay in Egypt. So we have the story, the discovery, the resilience, the passion and obsession for this extraordinary ancient world, but also, in today's world, the acknowledgment that it was Egyptian. So that is part of Heikler's story. And he was the most famous Carnarvon. And then, of course, we had Downton Abbey come along. So we have two planks to our marketing or ways to entice or beguile people to come to Highclere. Failing that, good food. And so those are really the two planks of my marketing, what I'm trying to share. But equally, Highclere, there's been a home at Highclere since 749 AD, or those are my earliest written records, and I have landscape records dating back to Neolithic times. So I really like the fact I can walk in time for six or seven thousand years and I can share that again with visitors, with guests, with friends of Highclere, just, I think, to give us a sense of continuity and if you can look back sometimes, perhaps you can have hope for the future. Because at the moment, I think it is a very troubled world and many of the values and the cultural values have been thrown up in the air and we're all wondering where they're going to land. So I think history and heritage can just help give you some time out to forget all about everything else.
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A
And that's a big draw for people coming to visit you, that they can do that. I can see the appeal of that instantly. So, Fion, obviously, Downton Abbey has been a huge story and it's been over more than a decade now. Were there any pressures associated with this association with Highclere and Downton Abbey and the filming and the journey you've been on together?
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B
I think the first thing is to accept that Highclere is also Downton Abbey and to embrace it. So that's absolutely fine. I think 3 to 400 million people around the world have watched it, and there's not a TV platform in the world which hasn't had Downton Abbey. So it's looking at that on the one side, and on the other side, they don't actually pay as much money as a location fee. So what can we do for Highclere to make the best of Downton Abbey? So it's merging the two together to make it work for Highclere and respecting the dreams of people who have loved Downton Abbey and making sure that we try to live up to them when they come to Highclere Castle. But my. All my marketing is around Highclere Castle. My Instagram is around Highclere Castle. So I have got that as a fence between Geordie and myself and what questions were asked, because I don't want Jordy and I to be, you know, interrogated about what we have for breakfast. We're talking about our home. And my books, therefore, also provide another fence, if you like, because I love to do interviews about them, but it's about the book rather than Jordi and I, which is really great.
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A
So Highclere Castle is your brand. Downton Abbey is obviously someone else's. NBC Universal, NBC Universe. I mean, when you just said 3 to 400 million people watched it, when you embarked on the first sort of bit of filming, did you have any idea that it would be that big?
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B
No, we wondered if anybody would watch it at all. It was a very brave step leap by Peter Fincham, the CEO of itv, and by Carnival, which was Julian Fellows and Gareth Neame. And Julian Fellows is. Was a scriptwriter, obviously the. The ideas man in some ways behind it, who has steered it and shaped it, but couldn't have done it without the other man involved. And then PBS in America. So it has become this kind of monstrous rolling circus and we're actually a small part of it, but we like to think we're quite an essential part of it.
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A
I think you are quite an essential part of it, which is not a bad place to be in any future negotiation. So good for you. What if doing good was the smartest business move you'll ever make? I'm James Reid, CEO of Reid. In my new book, Karma Capitalism, I reveal how being a Filco, that's a company where at least 10% of shares are owned by a charitable foundation, has become our business. Superpower companies like Lego, Ikea and Novo Nordisk share the same Filco identity. These businesses last longer, inspire loyalty, and make a bigger impact on society. This book is part manifesto, part practical guide. Karma Capitalism is available now@karmacapitalism.org being a good business is good business. You've written a book, Fiona. It's just recently published called A Year at Height Clear.
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B
There's no thank you. I try and write a book every two years and the latest.
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A
Okay, well, that's very impressive. It's certainly beaten me.
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B
I don't think it's a competition. It's just, if you ever publish this, what's next then? Otherwise you lose your place in the race.
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A
Let's talk about A Year at Highclere. How did you frame that?
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B
Well, I thought I've written history books, I've written cooking books and gardening books. You know, you go around thinking, what, how to share this extraordinary home. And then I thought, as the third film, the grand finale was coming out, it might be quite fun to share life today at Highclere and some of the stories. Because when I go out, people say, have you got any ghosts? I said, yes. Or, what's it like to have more.
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Of that in a minute?
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Or entertaining royally? Or what's it like to live with a film crew? So I thought I would create a book looking at the seasons of the year and devote different chapters to pull out and highlight what. What life was like in that month. So, you know, in March. March was when the film crew first turned up in 2010. So I thought I would write about living with a film crew and hearing the gravel crunch under the tires as the first of the white vans arrived with masses of equipment on it, because that's really what you are. You're a white van, lorry car park for months on end.
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A
See, I was. When you said the noise on the drive, I was at visualizing a sort of Bentley rolling in as you can see, as you would see in the film, not a white van, which is what your experience was.
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An arctic lorries and. Goodness.
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Yeah, yeah. So that's the reality, isn't it?
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That is the reality.
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Lots of kit coming in and out. So that sounds like hard work.
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You know, you was. But you sort of get into a rhythm of it. And it's a 13 hour day with 11 hour filming and from which they'd hoped to get four and a half minutes for television. So I.
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A
As 11 hours of film.
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Yes. So as a. I'm a chartered accountant by training and I've been ordering business and I just think you're not going to invest in that business because it's completely bonkers. But nevertheless, it makes a lot of people happy and it clearly worked and works.
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Right. I mean, it was a hugely successful series. And then the. The final film has just come out recently. So is that. Is that. Is Downton Abbey done?
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Well, I just thought Harry Potter's probably got to number 19 now. So no comment is the answer.
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Okay, well, we'll wait with. With baited breath. So. So what else. What else is featured in your year?
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Well, that was spring and then I've. Obviously I've got far too many dogs, so that was.
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How many dogs do you have?
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I have eight at the moment.
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Right. What breed are they?
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A mixture of Labradors and Spaniels.
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Right.
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And two little spaniel puppies. Oh, my God. So this morning they were looking at themselves. They'd never seen themselves in a mirror before, so. Oh, my goodness. They just bring such light and life.
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So you're going to keep the puppies?
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Oh, yeah, I've just got them. So. Yes.
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You just acquired an ambulance.
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They were a surprise for my husband, so I didn't warn him, so I thought that was easier. So that was another chapter. And then I wrote about him. Nature and nurture. Because we're a farm. We've been farming here for, I don't know, well, obviously thousands of years there has been farming at Highclere and my husband's been at Highclere since 1677, which means he looks pretty good. But his family has been farming there for a few hundred years.
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Right.
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So it's very challenged.
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The farming is very challenged.
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Oh, my goodness. Yeah.
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At the moment. I mean, anyone watching Clarkson's Farm would obviously realize that.
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But.
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But you read a lot about that in the news as well. What are the main challenges?
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The fixed asset value of all the equipment you need to farm and tread as lightly as possible on this earth to farm efficiently is way in excess of what you'd normally invest into a business with its turnover, and you'd only do it for the long term and handing on to the next generation, which is the whole thing at the moment. So it just. It's a. I find it fascinating and I love it and I want us to grow food really well for us all to eat locally and seasonally, James. But it's really hard to keep going. And money from the castle now is what we'll use to support the farm, because despite the fact we have 2000 arable acres and sheep, we are losing money. So goodness knows what is happening to everybody else. I mean, and it's things like, you know, no one's buying or investing in new sprayers, for example, so the spraying company from which we bought our sprayer has gone bankrupt. So we've now got no spare parts for the sprayer, which we've got. There are so many small challenges all along the food chain, if you like, as farmers today are not investing in the future because they don't think there is a future. And actually, we need to grow trees. Georgie and I have planted 22,000 trees over the last two years, but we also need to eat. So one chapter is about nature and nurture and nurturing nature, because that's what makes a successful farm. And I have written about that for various newspapers as well, including the Telegraph, not to sort of preach, but just to share some of the why it's so important. And for, you know, the old story is that for a loaf of bread which, you know, sells for £2 50 in the supermarket, I think we're paid a penny, I think fourpence would make a huge difference to us, but it's just not making any difference.
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A
Is that actually the economics?
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Yes. So for the wheat, it's just, you know, and I've got wonderful photographs of all the wheat in the barns, and from that wheat, from those tiny seeds, we millet to make flour and bread. And actually, during the Christmas period for which we're cooking for people now, we use a quarter of a ton of flour to make all the different cakes and, you know, panettones, whatever we're doing. But you do need flour. And we've got one of the oldest medieval barns in Southern England. And that, again, is a cathedral. It's a statement and it's a sort of hymn him to the harvest and what we actually should collect in. So it's not trying to say farmers are trying to be greedy, it's just we're trying to continue.
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A
And you're saying that you mentioned as a chartered accountant, I mean you're qualified accountant, looking at the business of this very. In a hard nosed fashion, actually looking at the capital costs of the equipment and how you cannot make that pay over a reasonable period because of the other issues affecting farming. So I mean you're talking here partly, I think about the inheritance tax change that affects protesting a very, you know, they have.
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And it's not.
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Is it about that? Partly.
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It is that part because a farmer today is not investing in another combine harvester for 750, 000 pounds payable on the, you know, whatever have you finance it because he's not sure whether he might suddenly die. And then that and the tractor alone will put you at the million pound mark on which after which you're going to be taxed. So the economics that the treasury presented in their economic case, there's no incentive.
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To be a successful farmer in fact.
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No.
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Because your farm would be more valuable and you'd have to pay more tax.
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Yes. So that is so silly. And investing in this country, I think we should actually have. So we're just building a new event space instead of having a marquee. And because it's a new investment in a new building, we have to pay for the outside structure out of taxed income. We can't set it off against our taxable income. I mean, again, that is bonkers.
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Why is that just a rule?
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Because it is a rule. So they should be encouraging people to invest in this country, to put money into this country, not tax you, not make you do it after taxed income when the tax is so high. So there are many straightforward things which would encourage people to invest and invest in the farm and look after it. And I don't think many of us in this country are being necessarily greedy. We're all trying to survive. And equally. Well on the other side, I understand how tough it is. So, you know, our prices for next year are the same as last year and in general admission time, it's £25 to come around Highclere because I think we're all struggling with money and I don't want people to think I'm, you know, making, making a mint out of Downton and then not supporting others.
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So you fix the price so it won't be going up.
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People listening will know I'm already selling tickets.
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A
Yes, yeah.
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To coaches and things like that. And I think many of our base market are, you know, wonderful people who perhaps, you know, coming down on a coach from Western Suit Super Mare or from Newcastle. No one's got a lot of disposable income, but a day out is a treat. So I'm always wanting to make sure that I'm also trying to look after them. And I cup of tea is £2 50 or whatever it is, because I think that matters as well. So we are a business which tries to do our best and profit is not the bottom line. Although I can't afford to lose money. So I have, you know, Jordan and I are always discussing where we can put the balance and where we can find the marginal contribution to give us the ability to survive as well.
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A
So you're really looking to sort of achieve continuity. Is that fair beyond profitability? Longevity, I suppose.
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I think longevity, stewardship and I think Highclere and similar stately homes are in the business of being, in a sense, a metaphor for looking after this world and being here for future generations of visitors in 100 years time to come and see, to go and stand under a cedar tree and say, this is amazing. So it's things like that. And it's not either pillaging nature or pillaging people's purses, it's trying to find a fair balance and explain to people what their options are. Some people have more money and want a special treat, a smaller guided tour, and for that it's more money. But it's up to people to choose and it's up to us to give them the choice from which they can choose. So, and in order to do that, I plan and prepare a long way in advance. So I've opened my tools and in 2026, until November 5th.
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A
Right.
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B
So then people can make their choices and if they've booked an airfare. No, they can get tickets.
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A
Yes. Fantastic.
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B
So, yeah.
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A
So you do feel you're a custodian of this wonderful place?
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B
I am, I'm just the steward. I'm just a custodian, but that's what I think we all should be of, you know, the people we work alongside, the trees that we sit under and look up of the nature and the nurture and this world we look after. And, you know, some of the most amazing people are doing shout outs and David Attenborough is in his 90s and his with the most powerful voice to do a shout out saying, just go slow, think before you do something, which from which we can't come back.
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A
And that, that's, that's very definitely a business philosophy that you've just espoused, which I would applaud and it's interesting seeing it in the context of Highclere Castle and the business you're running there. You mentioned your husband Jordy's family's been there, I think you said, since 1677.
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B
Yes. And.
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A
And you mentioned there were some ghost stories. Do they?
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B
Everybody wants to know about.
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A
I want to hear.
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B
It's Christmas time. It's November.
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A
Tell us a ghost story.
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B
So anyway, in a year.
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A
Have you seen a ghost there?
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B
You know, I did see a ghost. I did see a ghost.
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A
Come on, I want to hear this. It's the first ghost story we've had on the podcast.
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B
Oh, is it?
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A
It is. I'm really excited. Please tell me.
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B
But am I at the first daily home as well?
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A
You are. And you're the first farmer.
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B
Oh, good. My God, you are.
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A
So there are lots of firsts. First. Thank you.
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B
Am I the first gardener?
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A
I wouldn't be sure about that. But you're the first person to talk about gardening.
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B
Oh, okay.
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A
So we can do a bit of that.
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B
I think it wants me first. No. So I'm very happy to have the first case. So there are. But. And before my husband, my family owned it, it was owned by the bishops of Winchester for 800 years. So people have lived here a long time. And the innards of the old building are within the current castle. So it's just been reformed and, you know, recycled, transformed. So each over succeeding iterations. But no. So I was with Edward, my son Eddie, who, you know, and he was about three or four years old. It was on a. It was actually on a winter afternoon, I can't quite remember. And Jordie and I were taking photographs in the castle for a new guidebook. So Geordie stayed back with the photographer, and it was Eddie's tea time. And you know, with your own children, how important tea time is. So we left the castle to go out back to the tea room so I could get him something to eat. And we went down some old stairs. At the bottom of the stairs, I had one of those. I think I got them from Argos, the little red trike, which had an electric pedal, which was such fun. And you could put him on there. And then it was much easier to get around places, so I plonked him on there. And we went through a door and turned right and he can put his foot down.
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A
So you're inside or outside inside the castle?
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B
We're still inside the castle. Down some old flight of dark stairs, through some old fire doors. We turned right, and as we Turned right to go along a long corridor. I saw a figure approaching from over my left shoulder. And he was a bit taller than I and sort of dressed in black, and he had a gray cravat or something. And as I was pushing Edward along in front of me, I turned and he was following, which didn't fill me with enthusiasm, actually. And I was saying to Eddie, is your foot flat down, darling? He was always a careful driver, still is. And he says, yes, Mummy. So I was pushing him along with.
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A
The foot flat down, or being followed by this.
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B
And there was our old Labrador, Percy, who was the other side of some fire doors, and he was barking madly and he would not bark at Eddie and I. And as we burst through those fire doors, the chap following me stopped and. Which was lucky, and I went through, so I'm not blooming, coming back this way, and went through and the dog came with us. And I continued on, not not wanting to say anything to Edward, on to tea, anyway. I then found a friend who was a priest in Westminster Abbey and said, I've seen a ghost, and perhaps this is the chance to bless Highclere, because it's only shortly after Geordie and I had taken over, after his father had sadly died and perhaps wished this ghost away. And he was called Father Peter and he's an Anglican monk, and he said that'd be absolutely fine. So he came down and we blessed the house, which was wonderful. Blessed where people came in, blessed where people might eat in the dining room. It was the most peaceful morning. We blessed a couple of bedrooms, just as a token, because otherwise this is.
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A
A gentle way of getting rid of ghosts.
- [29:19]
B
And then we went downstairs to where I'd seen the ghost and he'd said to me, please, can you find out who you think you saw and what the story was? And I had found out from an archivist that apparently a previous countess's baby had sadly died, probably of something like cot death. But the nursery maid, who should have been sitting by the cot, was not there and she'd been having an affair with the footman. And there was a terrible uproar and terrible grief when the baby died. And I don't think anyone was blamed, but everybody felt awful about it. And the footman sadly lay down and committed suicide. He cut his throat over a grate in the cellars not far from where I saw him. And I think he got up while he was around.
- [30:11]
A
So you think you saw him.
- [30:13]
B
And he was following me, a new young countess with a baby following me along there so it was just trying to wish him on his way and saying, there is no blame. You can go now. So it's. Anyway, the. The Father Peter said if I didn't feel he'd gone, he could come back with a couple of bishops or something. We'd have another ghost.
- [30:38]
A
Bring in the artillery.
- [30:39]
B
He'd bring in reinforcements, I think, is what he said.
- [30:43]
A
Bring in reinforcements. All right.
- [30:44]
B
Anyway, so that was very kind of him, but I think the chap is much better and is less there. I mean, sometimes he is there.
- [30:55]
A
So you don't think he's gone?
- [30:56]
B
Not completely. And I think John, our castle manager, sort of says sometimes he was there. And there's definitely someone standing just beyond where he locks up in a.
- [31:06]
A
So other people have seen this?
- [31:07]
B
Oh, yes, but just the shape. And I went along with a couple of my Labradors because I was going to go and shut up a door there, and they decided to turn tail and run. So I found I could shut the door another time. So that was that.
- [31:25]
A
But you're not. You don't see that. Troubled by this. It's in your home, down in the basement, admittedly, but it doesn't seem bothered.
- [31:30]
B
Well, I think I tried to find other routes and if I'm feeling bothered. But, you know, I saw another ghost upstairs recently. Well, he stopped upstairs. I didn't see him. I heard him and. And there was another.
- [31:42]
A
What's he doing?
- [31:43]
B
Well, he walks up and down the corridor. You know, I haven't heard any musical. Musical ghosts. All right, so that is positive. Actually, perhaps that'd be quite better.
- [31:55]
A
Did you know the funny walking around again?
- [31:57]
B
This one, yes, but it's all part of the.
- [32:00]
A
So what do you, as a chartered accountant, what would you attribute this to?
- [32:06]
B
I mean, what ghosts?
- [32:07]
A
Yeah, I mean, what's the rational explanation for this? Or is. Is there not one?
- [32:10]
B
I don't think I worry about it.
- [32:12]
A
People listening. I don't believe any of this, but I'm sort of.
- [32:14]
B
That's completely fine. And I don't, mind you, I'm sort.
- [32:17]
A
Of half and half. I'm not quite sure, but I want. What. How do you interpret this?
- [32:22]
B
I definitely saw someone and I've definitely heard someone and I'm not the only one. So I've written a chapter about various stories in your book. In my book. And. And. And quite a few different ghost stories that other people have seen. So I suppose together it forms quite an interesting picture. And it seems to me, and it's. My husband doesn't see ghost. Geordie hasn't seen a ghost. On the other hand, he tends to do his own thing and not walk along lots of different corridors late at night.
- [32:53]
A
It wasn't him walking around.
- [32:55]
B
No. So he beats his own path, which is, you know, heading up to bed rather than going in search. But I'm not necessarily sure I'm going in search of them. But I think there are other strong presences or emotions. Or there's another example which perhaps explains it more clearly that there was a relative of Geordie's who died of completely natural causes. One of the bedrooms upstairs and his mother was, it was a grown up son, was sitting on the foot of the bed when her son sadly died. And sometimes if you go into the bedroom, there is the imprint of someone sitting on the end of a bed. And if someone sleeps in that bedroom, I sometimes ask at breakfast, did you sleep well?
- [33:47]
A
To see what they say and say, well, I woke up and saw someone sitting at the end of the bed.
- [33:51]
B
And, you know, someone has felt the presence of someone sitting on their feet. It's not necessarily completely bad, but there was clearly this moment in time which was immensely strong and intensely emotional and some of that appears to be still there.
- [34:09]
A
Right.
- [34:10]
B
So that's perhaps an easy example. And you know, those moments in time which are intense, curiously enough, in Downton Abbey. Sadly, Lady Sybil died in the third series of Downton Abbey in Portico Bedroom at the front of the castle. And Elizabeth McGovern did an amazing job.
- [34:29]
A
This was the flu, wasn't it?
- [34:31]
B
No, she died in childbirth and her mother acted by Elizabeth McGovern. It was the most intensely moving scene. In fact, the good news was that the actress had a part, another film with Russell Crowe. So she'd wanted to leave Downton.
- [34:49]
A
Oh, I see. So the scene had to be written.
- [34:51]
B
Out, was where she left it. But it was a very, very strongly intense emotional scene. I think for everybody watching it, they would have been very, very moved. So it's those moments in time. Portico bedroom, the real bedroom is. Feels absolutely fine because it wasn't real.
- [35:09]
A
Right.
- [35:10]
B
But again, it's this laying of one scene against another just to try to understand why perhaps people get a bit stuck there. Perhaps, perhaps they like it. Perhaps they liked it in that bedroom.
- [35:22]
A
Yeah, well, you mentioned, you mentioned your husband's ancestor, Lord Carnarvon, who died in Egypt. There is a story around that as well, isn't there? Tutankhamun?
- [35:31]
B
There is. Same chapter, chapter 11, but I'm thinking.
- [35:35]
A
It'S all in the same chapter. Can we have a Little bit.
- [35:37]
B
That's where I start, actually, because.
- [35:39]
A
So what's the story there? Because that's.
- [35:40]
B
So when the 5th Earl died in Cairo on the 6th of April, 1923, it was about 2 or 3 in the morning, I think, and his wife Almina had flown out amazingly to be by his side, and she's tried to nurse and save her husband's life. She had been a nurse during World War I and saved the lives of so many fathers and sons and husbands of other women, but she couldn't save her own husband's life. And at the moment he died, the lights in Cairo went out. So that's where I begin, because they.
- [36:17]
A
Well, the whole city, of course, the.
- [36:18]
B
Whole city went out.
- [36:19]
A
Right.
- [36:20]
B
And there's. Obviously, it begins, therefore, with curses and ghosts. But what's slightly strange is that back at Highclere, at about midnight, Lorcanough's little dog, Susie, who normally slept in his bedroom with him on his bed, was sleeping in his housekeeper's room. And at midnight, Susie stood up in her little bed, turned around, howled and died. So she's, I think, buried with Lord Carnarvon in his grave on the top of Beacon Hill.
- [36:54]
A
Right.
- [36:55]
B
So, do you know, I don't think we understand everything. In fact, the more I go on, I think we understand less and less. So I. I think I'm always cautious and very.
- [37:03]
A
What does he die of?
- [37:04]
B
What, the dog or the man?
- [37:05]
A
The man. The man was ailing, obviously, because his wife went to.
- [37:11]
B
Yes. No, he'd cut his cheek with a. He'd cut a mos. Nicked a mosquito bite that was on his left cheek with a razor when he was sailing from Luxor to Aswan on the Nile of Dahabaya for four days, just to take a break from the stress and strain of dealing with the ramifications and legacy of finding Tutankhamun. And he nicked it, but he didn't put any iodine on it, so it became infected. He came back to Luxor and he'd maybe got a bit of septicemia. I'm not quite sure. He was always. He had weak lungs because he had so many car accidents, because he was one of the earliest car drivers and he had a terrible car accident. And actually, I think it was 1909 and he nearly died. So he damaged lungs and jaws and sort of damaged his knee really badly. So he was quite a spare, thin man who, despite all his physical challenges of health, had nevertheless continued on and never let it be an excuse. Resilience all the way and Never give up. But anyway, he then went back to Cairo to see more doctors. And then his daughter Evelyn, who was there with him, had radiated her mother telegram to her mother saying, please come. You know, Pa's not at all well. She made it out to his bedside. So was it pneumonia? Was it septicemia? The extraordinary thing is that Tutankhamun's gold mask, which he had not at that point seen, was one of the last things to be uncovered post his death by Howard Carter has been really well analyzed and it's of two equal sheets of gold. The only point, it's slightly thinner is here on the left cheek, which is more or less where Lorkhanavn was bitten by a mosquito. And one of the reasons Tutankhamun perhaps died was because of mosquitoes and malaria. And the other thing was that Tutankhamun's left knee and leg was damaged probably by a chariot fall from a chariot driven by horses. And it was the same leg and same knee which Lord Carnarvon had died. So I think overall, be careful.
- [39:23]
A
Well, a lot of interesting points there. So, because the, the obviously the mask of Tutankhamun is. I mean, we can all see it.
- [39:30]
B
I mean, it's so famous, it's iconic, isn't it?
- [39:32]
A
Absolutely. An amazing. And so I didn't know he never saw it. But also that point that just in that little place on the cheek, there's a little fault because they were that. And it's. Because it's sort of faultless. It's almost deliberate, isn't.
- [39:46]
B
Is an extraordinary piece of art. And, you know, Lord Carnarvon loved both the modern Egypt in which he worked, and he worked out in Egypt for some 16 years, as well as ancient Egypt and the works of art that he was finding or acquiring and buying from Egyptian dealers at the time. So. Yes.
- [40:06]
A
So all these treasures are now in the new museum they've just recently. Are they?
- [40:10]
B
Well, the Tutankhamun treasures are all in the new museum and it looks entirely beautiful and I would love to go and visit it.
- [40:16]
A
Yeah, I've heard it's incredible. It's just opened recently.
- [40:19]
B
It has.
- [40:20]
A
I think that's another place I'd like to go to.
- [40:22]
B
Should we go together?
- [40:24]
A
Let's go to. Let's go to Egypt. I'd love to do that. So let's go back to your business today just to sort of. What would you like to do next? Because I'm just intrigued. How do you take it into the next chapter? What ideas do you have?
- [40:38]
B
Well, I think there's various parts of it. We've got some properties rental business which is very challenging again because the new rental laws coming in. Not that I think we've been doing anything badly but it now means that it's very hard. If you want to rewire, reroof a property, you can't ask anyone to leave. So the rental act for us is pretty difficult. So that's one part of our business. We're a farm. We are a small forestry business. We have the heritage business. We grow oats for the horse trains of the world and we have a small horse breeding business which you know, tries to at least break even. But at the heart of it, these are racehorses. Racehorses. And at the heart of it it's tools. Corporate business, a few weddings, it's hospitality at the heart of it. But a house like Hindclear was about making people feel welcome, saying hello, you're very welcome, that I really like. Whether it's a corporate, whether it's someone who's going to get married or whether it's a visitor coming on a guided or special tour. I then create special events around it from the magic of the movies I work with. I've got various partners. I collaborate with Viking Cruises, our big partners, Belmond, various big and famous names I can't disclose because of NDAs. Filming is not necessarily done. We've already got another film trying to fit some days in in 2026. So that's a legal contract I'm working on. I'm developing the friends business the whole time. We've developed Highclere Castle gin which is probably our biggest play gin. G I N G I N Not.
- [42:23]
A
G Y M G I N no.
- [42:27]
B
Our gym is called Walking and Staircases but Highclere Castle gin. So that is a British made business. We're now in 30 different states in America. We've just got into the. Through the Canadian Liquor Board which has taken five years to get into Canada. We've got. I think we're selling in northern Italy, in Milan, in Poland. Obviously in this country where it's quite a. Where there's a lot of other gins we have been. We're the only gin to have been awarded 100 out of 100 by the American Spirit Sport. We've got over 250 platinum and gold award points for being one of the best gins in the world. So that is a serious business we're developing. We're based in America. The gin is made here. Gin is bottled in England. It's an extraordinary bottle. So I'M really proud of that endeavor. We've just taken on a new CEO from who was with Puerto Rico. So I'm really happy to have someone with much more substance. We're a very small business and where.
- [43:34]
A
Can you get that gin? If you want to buy it on.
- [43:37]
B
Amazon is the simplest place to get gin. Click Hostel Gin. We sell it from our shop and we sell masses of cocktails as well. When people come and visit. We've got a cocktail bar and jazz music and stuff. So it is quite fun. But. So that is quite interesting. We started a huge website in America during COVID and then during COVID because we just launched it when Covid began, which is a disaster because you're going to buy your favorite, old favorite gins if you drink it on favorite brands. So our American partners then said, right, we're going to have to do something extraordinary. So we started a virtual cocktail party on Facebook and Instagram every other Friday at 9pm Highclere time. Georgie and I did not know what we were doing. Our phones were the wrong way up. It was completely chaotic. But everybody thought it was Meta's fault. So fine. We then became much more proficient at it. We involved the dogs. I learned about cocktails, where they came from, could make a hanky panky. I chose the names I liked because I had a story to tell. And then by June, we were in People magazine because we created the largest virtual cocktail party of some 80,000 people watching Jordi and I drink. How amazing is that?
- [44:55]
A
Yeah, that is amazing. And were they paying for the pleasure?
- [44:58]
B
No, I hope they were buying the gin.
- [45:00]
A
They were buying the gin.
- [45:01]
B
So that was quite good. So we've done some different things like that, which I'm really proud of. I'm. I am proud of a. You know, I've tried.
- [45:07]
A
Not afraid to try things.
- [45:09]
B
Well, you have to try. You know, you. You're looking after heritage, but you have to innovate. So that's the next thing. And then I think we now are ready to do a. A good round of financing to take it forward, because gin is about marketing and that's quite fun. So that's what I need to help the Gin team do next year, which is.
- [45:31]
A
How do you weigh that up, Fiona? I'm just thinking investing in the fabric of the heritage, but also in the business.
- [45:38]
B
Oh, no, we. Highclere Castle Gin is a separate business.
- [45:41]
A
So they run completely separate.
- [45:43]
B
It's actually an LLC based out of Connecticut.
- [45:46]
A
Oh, I see. So it's actually.
- [45:47]
B
So it's entirely separate. Obviously, one spurs off another.
- [45:51]
A
So you're going to start other businesses like that?
- [45:54]
B
I'm absolutely exhausted trying to cope with what I'm doing. Thank you very much. So no, the gin is entirely separate and then the friends is slightly separate and then Jordi and I run our enterprises. We're called Highclere Castle Enterprises. Jordie named us at the very start, when we began after his par in law died in 2001. And clever him for thinking of a name which is about enterprise, initiative and trying to be entrepreneurial around the business of heritage.
- [46:26]
A
Yes, well, you've been leading the way.
- [46:28]
B
I don't know about that, but we try. You fall over and you get up.
- [46:34]
A
Hearing you on the radio, I was thinking that all these different initiatives that you've, you've started, well, they're quite clear.
- [46:40]
B
I mean, we're a brand. That's what we're really interested in developing, being a brand. And we're lining ourselves up with some really interesting partners who are, because of our brand, our values and our culture, our reputation. And many, some of my talks in America are on and in this country actually at various business schools are on brand and reputation.
- [47:01]
A
So just describe that to me a little bit more in terms of what your focus is in terms of brand and reputation, what is the brand you're seeking to establish?
- [47:11]
B
The brand and reputation for Highclere is I'm looking always for authenticity, for kindness and for the values of continuity, of honor, of honesty, of humor, of a collection of old fashioned nouns and adjectives which provide a still point in a turning world. And they are what can survive for a long time. So, you know, for example, some time ago we did a Ralph Lauren fashion show together at Highclere. So again, looking at his brand values and they are based on some of what we've done at Highclere. It's very difficult to create a brand and takes a long time and it's very easy to lose a brand and takes in today's world, very little time. And in today's world with brand reputation, I'm always looking at what we're sharing on Instagram, which is a very powerful tool for every small business because effectively for us at Highclear, it's more or less free, but it makes an enormous difference.
- [48:16]
A
Do you run that yourself?
- [48:17]
B
Yeah.
- [48:18]
A
So you do them yourself?
- [48:20]
B
Instagram and Facebook for the, for the farm and the castle. So before I came in here, I was busy scheduling tomorrow's post.
- [48:30]
A
So how often do you post?
- [48:32]
B
We post every day.
- [48:34]
A
So people can find you on Instagram Instagram.
- [48:38]
B
A lot of people have found us on Instagram and Facebook the same. I write a blog every Monday and I'm writing, I wrote magazine articles for an American magazine last year, a British magazine this year. So yes, it's reasonably.
- [48:57]
A
Did you get any input from sort of brand consultants or did you just do it from your own knowledge?
- [49:02]
B
No, I've done it myself. So I listen.
- [49:05]
A
So it's authentic in that sense to.
- [49:06]
B
A lot of people and take a lot of advice. So there are some of our partners if you like, such as Viking Cruises or other ones. I can mention them. I think I can't mention the others. We sit down and talk about where we're going and what collaboration we can do and many of them have quite large departments about it. So we just swap ideas across and look at our cultures. So culture and community. And that's what I'm building at Heinkler, a community of like minded people.
- [49:40]
A
Well, that's really helpful advice for any, anyone starting a business, really. You have these tools in Instagram and Facebook that you can use for next to nothing. You can ask input from other people that you, you know and work with and A very valuable starting point.
- [49:54]
B
Yeah, I do. And I, I, I sort of, I end up helping people. It's, it's not, it's, I never, I've never charged, I just do some seminars if people want to come along and you know, have a discussion, sit down. I always welcome it and I love asking, you know, young people ring me up saying, can you, can you show me what you're doing? Because, you know, here I am, an ancient grizzly and she did look like modern on Instagram.
- [50:19]
A
So you do seminars. So you, you share your thing?
- [50:21]
B
I do, I share. If anybody wants some help, then obviously they're very welcome.
- [50:25]
A
How do people get hold of you?
- [50:27]
B
They just tend to contact me through Instagram. Funny. Or email us through the office. They're most welcome to come along and sometimes I do some bigger groups for historic houses, whatever else, because it's. Some people I think post to Instagram because they just think they should. In a big company they're told to post to Instagram. In a small company they're thinking they should be doing it, but then it's thinking about it from your customer's point of view. What are they getting from it? It's always turning round, putting something in the middle of the table and not looking at it from your side, but just walking around it to see what they're seeing. And it's one of my most powerful source information is our inbox at Hindcler Castle. Because people write in asking questions, things they can't find, things they can't find, things they're annoyed with, things they're happy with. So that just gives me such a lot of meat, if you like to turn around to think, well, this is what I should be doing better. They're doing too many clicks to hit buy or whatever else, and it's fantastic.
- [51:36]
A
So you're very close to your customers in that sense. When you get. You're reading the correspondence, you're meeting them in your home garden.
- [51:44]
B
But in a retail business where we're selling to consumers, I think, I suspect it's probably easier to start businesses where you're selling to an interface. If you're actually sending to an end customer, a retailer, I think it's really hard to build the business. People think they can set up a clothes business and people will love their clothes or set up this and they'll love their mascara. It's actually really difficult. So it's understanding, you know, how hard that is before you start. It's not saying don't start, but it's understanding where the difficulties are. So you just, you know, need to be aware of them.
- [52:22]
A
So, yeah, I mean, so what? So, looking forwards, the next generation of visitors and maybe the next generation of your family, what do you think they'll be looking for?
- [52:36]
B
I think, and I hope they'll be looking for much of the same, to sit under a tree, on a lawn and have a picnic, to enjoy seeing the visible history at Highclere of how we've lived in the past and how we can perhaps do a little bit better in the future than we might be possibly looking at now. How we can communicate face to face with other people, that's our strength at the moment. People come and they meet people. You go on a tour and you sit down, you chat to people and everyone who works at Highcliffe chats to you. So it's about remembering what it is to be people, not to go to a restaurant, put your phone on the table and busy starts scrolling while the rest of your party do the same. So I think that's an image. We're all familiar with people.
- [53:23]
A
So you are about create, ultimately. I mean, where we've got to, I think, in our discussion, is you are ultimately about creating a community and connecting people in ways.
- [53:33]
B
Connecting community, yep. Culture, values, brand. There's perhaps a lot more to highclere underneath the hood than people might think from looking at the house but then the other side of the house is. I'm always. There's always restoration, there's always gutters, there's always hoppers. There's a new window light being made on the roof just today because the other one's leaky. There's always things that catch you out. There's always sheep out of a field. There's a horse that's leaned on a fence too hard. There's something overflowing. So I'm much better than I ever thought I would be.
- [54:09]
A
So you're good at maintenance. You self taught her that as well?
- [54:13]
B
Yeah, definitely. Well, you know, if a hopper needs clearing up, either you're down and clearing it up or it's going to overflow and you have water.
- [54:19]
A
So your hands on in that sense, I think. Yes, that's the impression I'm getting, which is very good.
- [54:24]
B
Well, I don't know. I love the roof of High Claire. I think it's entirely magical and climbing all around the roof. I've now got fantastic ladders around the roof too because I used to slide down bits of it.
- [54:35]
A
We shouldn't be encouraging this for people listening going on.
- [54:37]
B
No, they can't get up there so it's fine. But on my bum across the slate, which wasn't ideal and actually Steve, who mends the slates for me, thought it wasn't ideal because I'd be breaking the slates. He's mended anyway. So I've now got some fantastic, much better ladders which is much safer than it was before, which is great. But I love it up there and it's not something. I mean, I love that part. That's not something my husband's mad about. He's probably really committed and passionate about the farm and doing all he can to support and work with Simon, our farm manager. And he is very hands on there.
- [55:12]
A
Yeah, I'm sure you make a good.
- [55:14]
B
He hasn't slid along the roof that I know, but I might get him to do that.
- [55:18]
A
But you fix the roof while the sun shines, I hope.
- [55:21]
B
Well, yes. And then something goes wrong in the rain.
- [55:23]
A
There's always something. There's always something. Thank you, Fiona, so much for coming to talk to me. I've really enjoyed that discussion and I've learned a lot of things I hadn't expected to learn about the supernatural, about farming and hoppers and hoppers. Thank you very much. Now I'm going to ask you two questions I ask everybody at the end.
- [55:44]
B
Yes.
- [55:45]
A
My podcast, if you don't mind. And the first One, because we love Mondays at Reid, is what gets you up on a Monday morning.
- [55:53]
B
Clearing up my two puppies, who my husband calls Pee and Poo but are otherwise called.
- [56:00]
A
So that's a labor of love.
- [56:01]
B
Paddy and Lola. So that gets me out of bed on a Monday morning.
- [56:05]
A
Good. Well, I hope their house trains soon.
- [56:08]
B
Yes, well, on a work in progress.
- [56:11]
A
Good luck. And then lastly, where do you see yourself in five years time?
- [56:16]
B
I hope I'll be a better horse rider because I've got a new horse. I hope I'll be better at riding him. That would be helpful. I'll have done more work in the gardens because I love gardening. I'll have restored some more rooms and I'd like to spend more time going on a holiday, but I go on holiday with my laptop, so I don't really know.
- [56:43]
A
So you need a holiday at some point. I hope you have one in the next five years. Certainly. Yeah. Everyone seems to be coming to you. It'd be nice for you to get. Maybe you'll go to see the fine museum in Cairo. Yes, yes, let's hope so. Thanks, Fiona. Thank you very much, James.
- [56:59]
B
Thank you so much for asking me. Thank you.
- [57:01]
A
Pleasure. Thank you, Lady Carnarvon, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reed, chairman and CEO of Reid, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to learn more about Reid, Highclere Castle, all the estate's latest projects, you'll find all the links in the show notes. See you next time.
- [57:25]
B
Sam.