59. From rejection to £100m deals: The Netflix pitch that changed British TV | Andy Harries OBE

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: James Reed: All About Business
Episode 59: From Rejection to £100m Deals: The Netflix Pitch That Changed British TV | Andy Harries
Date: December 29, 2025
Host: James Reed CBE
Guest: Andy Harries, Co-founder & Executive Chairman, Left Bank Pictures

---

Episode Overview

This episode features Andy Harries, a pivotal figure in British television and co-founder of Left Bank Pictures, the production house behind hits like The Crown and Outlander. Harries shares his journey from early career setbacks to masterminding globally successful TV ventures—culminating in the Netflix deal that transformed British television. The conversation spans the craft of storytelling, creative business-building, the balance of art and ambition, industry lessons, and the future of global entertainment.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Career and Rejection (00:00–05:22)

• Granada Beginnings: Andy Harries recounts his start as a promotions scriptwriter at Granada in Manchester at age 21, having first been a newspaper journalist.
• Turning Point—Facing Rejection: At 26, Harries is rejected repeatedly for a producer role. A manager tells him, "I was not producing material and that I was never going to be made a producer by Granada… I should do another trade altogether." (04:01)
  • Impact: Rather than deter him, this stinging feedback fuels Harries’ drive to prove doubters wrong:
    • "It was like jet engine fuel inside me to think, all right, I'm gonna—I’m sure." (04:58)
• Embracing Change: The launch of Channel 4 led to a boom in independent production, giving Harries critical opportunities.

Documentary Years and Essential Experiences (05:22–13:58)

• Extensive travel and documentary work taught Harries the art of storytelling, networking, and improvising under pressure.
• He reflects on the lost footage from era-defining documentaries—such as his work with Malcolm McLaren and the Sex Pistols—regretting the lack of archives.

Transition from Documentary to Drama and Comedy (13:58–19:55)

• Entry via Comedy: After documentaries, Harries is drawn into comedy through a documentary on Lenny Henry, sparking a fascination with comedy’s immediacy and societal resonance.
  • Memorable story: Lenny Henry’s adaptation of his act for an American audience, highlighting comedy’s cultural specificity and the adaptability required to succeed internationally. (16:51–18:36)
• Eventually, this passion leads Harries to head up comedy at Granada, producing successes like The Royle Family and Cold Feet.

The Creative Partnership with Peter Morgan (19:55–24:07)

• Harries describes his enduring and fruitful relationship with writer Peter Morgan (creator of The Crown and others)—"We've been very good for each other. We've done fantastic stuff together." (19:55)
• Shared endeavors include The Queen (film) and The Audience (play), setting the stage for The Crown.

The Breakthrough: The Queen and the Leap to Entrepreneurship (24:07–37:14)

• Making of The Queen: Inspired by the societal impact of Princess Diana’s death, Harries produces The Queen, starring Helen Mirren.
• Entrepreneurial Leap: Buoyed by The Queen's global success, Harries leaves ITV to found Left Bank Pictures at age 50, motivated not by money but by creative independence.
  • "The freedom to do the sort of shows I wanted to do without being restrained..." (32:41)
• Naming the Company: "It was a shower moment... It's called Left Bank because I lean left... 'Bank' suggests reliability." (34:27–35:14)

Left Bank's Early Years and Breakout Hits (37:14–48:20)

• Initial Projects: Includes Wallander (with Kenneth Branagh) and Strike Back, a show Harries sold to Sky before reading the book it was based on, signaling his gut instinct and risk tolerance.
  • "My job to read the book? No..." (42:55)
• Financial Milestones: Left Bank starts lean, then grows rapidly. The BBC buys a 25% stake early on, then Sony acquires the company.
  • BBC invests £1m; four years later earns £10m return (48:26).

The Netflix Deal and The Crown (49:19–61:44)

• Genesis: After the play The Audience, Peter Morgan and Harries conceive The Crown as a high-budget, cinematic TV series spanning six seasons.
• Pitching in Hollywood: After rejection from conventional broadcasters unwilling to fund a £100m budget, Netflix buys the series outright in the room, with legendary minimal interference.
  • "Ted said, 'This is fantastic. We want this…'" (57:26)
  • "Peter said, 'I don't want any notes.' Ted said, 'That's fine, Peter. No notes.'" (57:43–58:14)
• Transformative Impact: The Crown marks Netflix’s global expansion and redefines British TV’s ambitions and reach.
  • Budgets rise from £5m to £10m per episode.
• Cultural Aftermath: The Crown (and earlier The Queen) actually boost public sentiment towards the UK monarchy.

Leadership, Creative Vision, and Future Directions (63:49–72:57)

• Succession Planning: Harries signals a transition from CEO to Executive Chairman, aiming to mentor and focus on passion projects while maintaining creative influence at Left Bank.
  • "Knowing when to get off the train is as important as knowing when to get on the train..." (65:17)
• Current and Upcoming Projects: Includes BBC adaptation of James Graham’s Dear England, and ambition to tell more distinctly British stories.
• Views on the BBC and Industry: Harries is a staunch advocate for the BBC as an incubator for national culture and emerging talent.

Personal Drive and Motivation (70:09–72:57)

• Staying Energized: Harries credits a strict fitness regimen as key to his ongoing motivation and creativity.
  • "I get up at 6, 6:30 every day and then I train…" (70:42)
• What’s Next: Aspires to a mix of mentoring, selective producing, and a balance of professional and personal passions in the years to come.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Rejection as Fuel:

  • "It was like jet engine fuel inside me to think, all right, I'm gonna—I’m sure." (04:58, Andy Harries)

• On Creative Opportunity:

  • "I just wanted to be unleashed. I think the entrepreneurial spirit of it wanted—oh, you know, God damn it, why don’t just do it?" (34:06, Andy Harries)

• On Pitching The Crown:

  • "Ted said, 'This is fantastic. We want this…' …Peter said, 'I don't want any notes.' Ted said, 'That's fine, Peter. No notes.'" (57:26–58:14, Andy Harries & Peter Morgan with Ted Sarandos)

• On Industry Change:

  • "In the 50 years I've been working in television, from those humble days of, you know, writing trailers for Granada Television through to kind of having global television shows drop—unbelievable." (60:19, Andy Harries)

• On Knowing When to Move On:

  • "Knowing when to get off the train is as important as knowing when to get on the train..." (65:17, Andy Harries)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Origin Story & Early Setbacks: 00:00–05:22
• Documentary Years & Travel: 05:22–13:58
• Comedy/Drama Transition: 13:58–19:55
• Partnerships—Peter Morgan: 19:55–24:07
• Breakthrough with The Queen & Entrepreneurship: 24:07–37:14
• Left Bank Pictures’ Formation & Growth: 37:14–48:20
• Netflix Pitch & Creation of The Crown: 49:19–61:44
• Financial Scale & Global TV Impact: 53:52–61:44
• Leadership & the Future: 63:49–72:57
• Personal Motivation: 70:09–72:57

---

Takeaways for Business and Creative Leaders

• Embrace Rejection as Motivation: Early setbacks can be powerful motivators for future achievement.
• Take Calculated Risks: Significant breakthroughs often require bold, even unconventional, pitches and business decisions.
• Value Partnerships: Long-term creative relationships and collaborative trust—like that with Peter Morgan—are invaluable.
• Know When to Step Up (and Down): Leadership is about timing, succession, and passing the baton at the right moment.
• Champion Local and Authentic Storytelling: Stories rooted in local culture can have powerful global resonance.
• Maintain Energy & Curiosity: Personal drive, fitness, and open-minded ambition are crucial for longevity in a competitive industry.

---

This episode provides an in-depth roadmap of building a creative business legacy—bringing together resilience, entrepreneurial spirits, and the courage to present bold ideas on the world stage.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. From documentaries to the Crown, From British television to global streaming, today's guest has helped shape modern storytelling. Today on All About Business, we're joined by one of the most influential figures in British television, Andy Harries, co founder and executive chairman of Left Bank Pictures, the production company behind the Crown, the Queen and many more globally acclaimed shows. Andy has built a career that bridges creativity and commerce, leading teams, scaling productions and navigating the streaming revolution, while staying true to powerful storytelling. In this episode, we'll explore what it takes to build a creative business that lasts, how to balance art and ambition, and what the future of global TV might look like. Today on All About Business, I couldn't be more delighted than to welcome Andy Harries. He's the co founder and CEO of Left Bank Pictures, a leading production company. And Andy has produced, among other global hits, the Crown and Outlander. And he's been CEO for 18 years and he's planning to become executive chairman in 2026. We'll talk about that in a minute, Andy. But he's won. He and his colleagues have won a host of awards, BAFTAs, Emmys, Golden Globes. I think it's fair to say Andy is a TV legend. I'm making him smile, but it's very true. I can't wait to learn more about your journey and your ideas and your way of thinking about television, Andy. But let's start at the beginning. Well, at least the beginning of your journey in television. I think you started in Granada in Manchester.

[B]

I did. In fact, rather oddly, it was exactly 50 years ago. As a young 21 year old, I got a job at Granada as a promotion scriptwriter, which is basically defined as the person who writes the trailers that used to go out between shows in old broadcast days. So coming up later tonight, you can enjoy it, blah, blah, all that is written and our job was to make the trailers and write it. So it was a fantastic introduction to television and I was incredibly lucky to get a job at Granada. I had been a journalist. I'd started on a newspaper at 17, so I'd done a year in a paper, then gone to university at Hull, studied politics, went back to the paper in holidays, just to try and keep my hand in and frankly, to get a bit of money. But I was lucky, really, because I was given a bit of a steer quite early after university where I. Well, that was my last year. I was applying for jobs and I went to an interview in Newcast for the. What was it called? The Tynan? The Echo. I think it was called the Newcastle Echo. The paper. It was a Thompson paper, actually. It was part of the Thompson graduate scheme. And this guy, very wise editor, was interviewing graduates, essentially, he was taking on one or two. They took one or two on in each of the places, regional papers. And when he tapped me more about what excited me, which was, you know, traveling overseas and just the kind of world events, he said, you're doing the wrong thing, it's the wrong job. You don't want to be a journalist in newspapers, you want to be in TV. TVs that if you want to travel, television's the place to. To be. And he was right.

[A]

Well, you've done quite a lot of travel.

[B]

I have done a lot of traveling. I have done a lot of traveling and a lot of exploring and I met a lot of people because for a good chunk of my career, I was essentially involved in documentaries and news and, you know, that took me all over Africa, a lot of. All over South America. And. Yeah, I mean, I'd, you know, extraordinary range of experiences as any documentary maker tends to have.

[A]

So this was primarily with independent television.

[B]

It was later. I mean, I stayed at Granada for five years from 21 through to 26, when, James, this is. I hope this is encouraging to people. People think you've had, oh, you had a great old life, Andy. It's just gone up and up and up. Yes, well, it wasn't the case, actually. When I was 26 years old, I applied for my third producers board because in those days it was quite formally structured. It was a very unionized industry in those days. This was pre Thatcher. And I applied for my third producer's board and I was told in no emphatic terms, that I was. I was not producing material and that I was never going to be made a producer by Granada. And the guy rather helpfully said at the end he thought I should do another trade altogether. Right. So that was that. But.

[A]

But, you know, how wrong was he? Well, yes, but it turns out, sitting.

[B]

Here now, he was wrong. I was so.

[A]

But did him telling you that make you more determined to show him he was wrong?

[B]

Couldn't wait to get that.

[A]

Was that a help or a Hindrance.

[B]

It was. It was a fantastic spur. It was literally. I literally left the. And thinking, well, I'm going to show you, mate. Exactly.

[A]

Probably worse.

[B]

Well, I'm not going to swear, but I. But absolutely no. And it literally. It was like jet engine fuel inside me to think, all right, I'm gonna. I'm sure. And I was incredibly lucky because this was the early mid-80s and just at that time Channel 4 was being set up, so there was a flood of new production companies that were being set up to make shows for Channel 4. And. And I. My services were, you know.

[A]

Actually, did your paths ever cross again with the man who gave you that feedback?

[B]

No, it didn't. He passed, actually. I was sad to see that because I wasn't. I didn't hold him. And I mean, you know, look, I think that.

[A]

So he wasn't able to see your.

[B]

No, he wasn't. But I think that. I think Granada, at that time, I think the middle management in Granada had become a bit dull, a bit boring. You know, it was a very entrepreneurial and interesting company to be a youngster in. It had a great ethos, it was very pro north. It was sort of very anti establishment. It was certainly broadly left, not right, just adding, you know, this is a commercial TV station. Yes, yes. But, you know, that's interesting. The roots of Granada, you know, when they were set up by the Bernstein family, was set up in such a. An extraordinary way, very entrepreneurial way. They chose that when the ITV was. They sold off basically the regions of ITV to commercial companies in the 50s. And the Bernstein family decided to go. To go for a franchise. And the reason they went for what became Granada, which was the northwest of England, was because it had the highest rainfall in the uk. And they argued or felt that the area with the highest rainfall would be where they watched television most. And therefore that's inspired.

[A]

It's always raining in Manchester, isn't it?

[B]

So on top of that, I mean, the inspiration of the Bernstein family went further. They then they constructed a very. Still there today. It's now a solo house, of course, but this extraordinary sort of late 50s building. And on the top of the building they put a tower, as if it's beaming out television. It's entirely made of wood, it had no function whatsoever, but it looked like it was beaming this sort of television out to the northwest. And then the other thing they did.

[A]

That was a set rather than a real satellite.

[B]

And then downstairs they had studios 2, 6, 8 and 12.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you. When you say, oh, you're in Studio 12. Oh, you've got 12 studios. No, and four studios. Very clever.

[A]

So you can see there's a lot of smoke and mirrors.

[B]

There's a lot of smoke.

[A]

This world of television and I think.

[B]

This, this culture inside Granada produced a sort of. Well, we'll show them up north, you know. Yeah.

[A]

So it was a sort of Northern pride about it.

[B]

Huge Northern pride. Yeah, yeah. And, and, yeah, it was a. No. And it sort of instilled you. There was, that was a kind of, you know, whereas the BBC was sort of educate and entertain, I think it was. Granada was more. Not cause trouble, but push it, provoke it.

[A]

More people can't see you right now and I should tell them that you're holding your fist up and really meaning what you're saying. Yeah, that's real vigor.

[B]

Well, I was kind of a quite a rebellious character, which is probably why they actually got rid of me at first time round. But not rebellious so much. But I've always been quite impetuous and quite sort of. I find authority a little.

[A]

But you haven't been afraid to have conflict at work?

[B]

No, I've had conflict. I don't think I would need to go into that too much. I had one or two fights.

[A]

Or literally fights.

[B]

Yeah, literally, yeah. I'm not proud of that, by the way.

[A]

But, I mean, it's in your Wikipedia.

[B]

Yes, I know, I know, I know, I know. I, I, I, I don't think I have a temper, per se, but I have a sort of short fuse when it comes to things. When I think I'm right and someone else is wrong and it has led to be throwing a punch or two.

[A]

Well, I'm a safe distance.

[B]

But as I say, I don't, I don't think it's something to be proud of. I don't know why it's in the Wikipedia.

[A]

Young men too.

[B]

And maybe I should edit the Wikipedia. But anyway. Yes, it did.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, but, so, but you're obviously passionate about your. I mean, one other way of looking at. Is you feel you care about what you do, you're passionate about your work.

[B]

Yeah, no, I mean, I'm incredibly lucky because television suited my personality perfectly. And that's what I realized when I got there. I mean, I was an okay journalist, I could write decently, but I wasn't a great writer. You know, I, I have a very short attention span, I'm a bit ADHD and I'm dyslexic. So all these sort of things combined for perfectly in television, where everything is done in a bit of a rush and you could do a bit of everything. You film a bit and produce a bit and edit a bit and direct a bit and all that kind of stuff. And particularly if you're doing news or documentaries, that's that ability to basically be across everything, be able to do everything and anything is really helpful. You know, it, you know, it was grand.

[A]

So then you went to. You got involved with Channel 4 commissioning?

[B]

No, not commissioning. I mean, I was, I was always worked for Independent.

[A]

So you. They were commissioning you?

[B]

Yeah, not me directly.

[A]

Well, so who did you work for after Granada? After you.

[B]

So, yeah, and I worked now whole succession. I was for. For 10 years after Granada, from about 30, from being about 28. 27. 28 till about 37, 38. I was a freelance director and that was pretty rare in those days. It was unusual. And I worked mainly for South bank show, for Melvin Bragg and for Alan Yentaur. But arena and I did a lot of art shows. I made profiles of people like Malcolm McLaren and the sex Pistols, Truman Capote, Lenny Henry, Mario Vargas Yosa, the Peruvian novelist. There were just basically subjects or stories or people that I was interested in and I gave, you know, I gathered enough experience to be able to sell shows to. Directly to arts channels, essentially. So straight in. So, you know, they were great adventures. I mean, you know, on the Malcolm McLaren and the Sex Pistols one I went off to New York for three or four months and just lived there, you know, had dinner with Andy Warhol, rocked around New York.

[A]

So you became friends with these people? I did imagine, yeah.

[B]

I think when the documentary maker, you. You have to sort of. You just sort of move in beside the person you're. You're making a film about and that. And it can lead to extraordinary moments and experiences. I mean, one wishes one had the experience and wisdom later to apply to some of those moments, you know, But I mean, all the films were good and were great.

[A]

What do you think of when you say that?

[B]

I just think sometimes, you know, looking back, I just wish. Well, I wish some of my. I could. I've long wanted to. That's ridiculous, isn't it? But I mean the Malcolm McLaren and the sex Pistols, when you look back now, that's 50 odd years since. Since all that. That was not 50 years. Isn't it?

[A]

Almost.

[B]

It's almost 50 years and I wish. I'd love to go back. I shot so much stuff, none of which was. A lot of which was not in the film. Would be great to read it to Go back to those rushes and reassemble that film in a different way, because so much of it is fascinating and a fascinating portrait, not just of a rock band, but obviously of the times. You know, that whole punk thing was so part of the UK in that, in those mid-70s, which was a pretty. Pretty depressing time.

[A]

What if doing good was the smartest business move you'll ever make? I'm James Reid, CEO of Reid. In my new book, Karma Capitalism, I reveal how being a Filco, that's a company where at least 10% of shares are owned by a charitable foundation, has become our business. Superpower companies like Lego, Ikea and Novo Nordisk share the same Filco identity. These businesses last longer, inspire loyalty and make a bigger impact on society. This book is part manifesto, part practical guide. Karma Capitalism is available [e-mail] being a good business is good business. Those rushes, I guess from Michael McLaren or the sex Pistols, they don't exist anymore.

[B]

Sadly, they don't. I did check, actually, a few years ago, but they've been thrown out. A great deal of television, 60s, 70s, 80s stuff was thrown away. I had a infamous experience as a presenter. A rather unwise producer, thought I should be on the telly and present the news, which I did.

[A]

Oh, so you were the news presenter for three months?

[B]

I was bad to terrible on most days and watched this in Granada. Yeah, this was in Granada and finally led to a terribly awful experience in a show where I basically messed up everything. I read the news on rehearsal in six minutes and then finally read it live in three and was left looking at the camera, looking gormless. And then I then messed up an interview with a MP down the line. I just went from bad to worse. It was. It was horrible. Now the good news is it doesn't exist. Oh, I see.

[A]

So we can't find this clip in.

[B]

Thankfully. That's the only time I've ever been grateful that the TV live.

[A]

So that was no longer. Do they keep material now?

[B]

They do much. Yes, they do, yes. Yes, it's. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So if you. If that'd be now, it would be.

[B]

Yes, in some arc somewhere people could watch it.

[A]

But. So.

[B]

So that.

[A]

I suppose that was your experience in front of camera. You've been.

[B]

Yes. I wisely decided this wasn't. This wasn't. This was a step sideways and indeed backwards, one might say.

[A]

Right, right. So what made you make the transition from documentaries to drama?

[B]

Oh, yeah, that's. That's an interesting question. That's. That's a Good question. Actually, what, what really happened was that I was always fundamentally interested in comedy, but I couldn. I didn't. I couldn't get into comedy per se. Granada didn't really do any comedy. So when I was a kid and was doing the news shows and the doc. The news stuff, there wasn't really any. There was some comedy, but it wasn't something. I don't know why, but just felt like a bit of a. So much a closed world, but something I couldn't get into. And the way into it for me was making essentially a documentary about Lenny Henry actually. And Lenny lived near me in Hammersmith. This is. I, you know, just moved down from Manchester to London. I'd started working at the South bank show on a freelance basis. I wasn't. So every. Basically I had to. Every idea I had to sell it to Melvin or Alan Yento, but Melvin was my preferred choice at the time. And I went to the corner shop and there was Lenny Henry buying some milk. So I thought, oh, he'll be interesting because, you know, he was a young black comedian. He just married into new comedy by. By. By marrying Dawn French. And he obviously lived locally, so I followed him discreetly back to see where he lived. I didn't know him at all, so I clocked where he lived and I then went back to the house and I thought, SAP never does anything about comedy and they certainly never done anything about a black comedian. And in fact, Lenny is sort of probably the first black comedian anyway, pretty much. And so I probably wrote to Melvin, I can't remember wrote him or rang him. Anyway, he was very excited. So then I dropped a note back round to Lenny and saying, you know, you don't know me, but I live around the corner and it would be great to make a film about you. And he agreed and we became very close friends and we went to New York together and I followed him up and down the road on tour and made this documentary and then I made a sort of feature show where he. Of his. Of his tour, which was released in the. In the late 80s. What I loved about working with Lenny was how. How dangerous comedy felt because, you know, when we took him to New York at the time, he went. I mean, he's tall, big Lenny, and he's got this fantastic English accent. And I know it's strange to remember, but you went to New York in the mid-80s and you were a British black guy and you opened your mouth. People nearly fell over. I mean, they literally couldn't believe Lenny spoke with such a.

[A]

They Thought it was funny.

[B]

Yeah, they thought it was really strange because they had, weren't used to British black guys in a sense.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And we had the most experience.

[A]

So you got a lot of attention.

[B]

Yeah, but the point about going to New York was I was going to put him on in a club called Catch A Rising Star and film the final concert. Final, final time. This was the climax of the film. Just about five or 10 minutes of stand up in New York. I Lenny conquers New York. So we put him on on the Monday, Tuesday, Tuesday night and he died a total death. I mean he was, it was excruciating.

[A]

I know why?

[B]

Well, because the material just didn't work, didn't fly. They didn't understand what he was talking about, didn't understand him and they didn't understand what he was talking about. Because comedy is always inherently, you know, about experience is something it relates to an experienced experiences. So the most extraordinary thing happened, or I witnessed it anyway with Lenny and we had a Kim Fuller who was a writer who worked with Lenny and for the next few days we just tootled around New York and we went to nightclubs and we did this, that and the other. We met Prince in a nightclub one night, amazingly, because Prince, Prince had seen Lenny's impression of and came up to him and looked him up and Prince was pretty, pretty small guy, looked up at Lenny and said, I know who you are and I know what you've done on that television show in England. But Lenny loved Prince so he was like all over and so excited. But the point about a whole this story was that Lenny then started to write all this into a whole new 10 minute stand up. So by the time he got up on the Friday night to record his new standup, it was all about being a British, a black British guy in New York in 1987 or whatever it was at the time, 66, 6 or 7, I can't remember. It went down a storm, I mean absolute storm, which was fantastic. But the point about the story for me was that I realized how, how vital comedy was, how much you could do, how quickly you could change people, you know, how brilliant it was when you made people laugh and what it was, what it took to make people laugh and how brave you've got to be in a sense to stand in front of an audience and start telling jokes and be that person. So I, I just suddenly thought this was fascinating and this, so this, this really opened this really. I sort of found, I think sort of roughly what I, what I wanted to do I then worked with Jonathan Ross quite a bit and we. I met Vic Reeves and Bob Mortimer.

[A]

And so you started doing scripted comedy?

[B]

Yes, I was starting to move it. Well, not entirely scripted initially, but. But it became scripted comedy improvisers. Yeah. Yes, it was more. Yes, exactly. It was a. It was the start of a journey that led me eventually to being. To being asked to be the head of comedy at Granada, to go back to Granada 10 years after I left in the early 90s. And that's a good joke. Yes.

[A]

After that send off they gave you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you came back as a head of Common?

[B]

I did, yes.

[A]

So how long were you there doing that then?

[B]

So I did that.

[A]

Your second innings?

[B]

Yeah, my second innings was quite long. So I did the Royal Family and everything with Carolina Hearn and a show called Cole Feet and they were very successful. Quite a lot of other stuff. And around the same time, I started working with Peter Morgan, who's the writer best known for the. For the Crown. But he's obviously done lots and lots of stuff and lots of stuff with me. And I met him in the late 80s and then we became. We were great friends. And then he started writing stuff for me. He was a sort of. I don't know, he described himself as a comedy writer, but he was writing comedy dramas in the 90s, I think he was. He saw himself at that time as a writer. You know, we could pretty much turn his hand to anything. But in time that.

[A]

So this was the beginning of an important partnership.

[B]

Yes, very important partnership, yeah. And I work with Peter off and on pretty much my whole career. And there's no question that we've done. We've been very good for each other. We've done fantastic stuff together. And the Crown is the. You know, we did the. The movie the Queen and then. And then a play called the Audience, which was essentially about the Royal family again. And then.

[A]

So the Royal Family's been a big thing.

[B]

The Royal Family. Been a big thing. So the Royal Family. The initial Royal family show I did, obviously, was a sitcom about a family in Manchester just called the Royals.

[A]

I know, yeah. That's a good one.

[B]

And then the real royal family became. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah.

[A]

Tell me about the Queen.

[B]

The famous film the Queen came about. I think I would suggest that the Queen really came around, came about. Its roots lay in the week that Diana died in 1997, because it was such a strange week to be in London. And both Peter and I were Those who were in London that time will remember. I mean, it Was not. Of course, it was across the whole country, the shock.

[A]

But I remember it.

[B]

Yeah. But in London there was a kind of weird stillness to the atmosphere. Everyone was sort of paralyzed. These flowers are piling up outside Kingston House and all that kind of stuff. And I think Peter and I were just, you know, very. We're talking about it every day. What was going on? What was. What was it about Diana that people became so obsessed about? So, so. So why were they projecting so much onto her and taking so much away from her? It was really, really difficult to analyze. And I think. I don't think we thought at the time, we'll come back to it, but it. It just never went away, that sense. And when. So later, a little later on, Peter found this incredible voice of being able to write contemporary history. And the first film that demonstrates this is. Was a film called the Deal, which I produced with him for Channel four. And it was a film about how Tony Blair and Gordon Brown fought it out to become the leader of the Labour Party in that restaurant. Yes, exactly. The granita deal. Exactly. Well done, James. There was a restaurant in Islington where we actually did film the scene in the actual restaurant. And Peter had become very interested in this story. And it was a bit of a departure for him in terms of his writing, but it was something we. He wrote incredibly well and incredibly quickly. He suddenly, suddenly found. In my view, he suddenly found his.

[A]

When you say. How do you describe that genre?

[B]

Well, it's. I mean, you know, Peter has a view of not writing anything which is less old, I. E. He will not do anything he really wants to do. Modern history, but. But modern British history, primarily. But it has to have at least 10 or 15 years distance.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So that he can, you know, because that's.

[A]

They can interpret it.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes. You get a much greater sense of really what happened if you're With a bit of perspective. Yeah. I mean, if you try and write something, I guess, you know, you couldn't really write something now about.

[A]

Well, that granita deal would have looked very different two years after than exactly 15 years.

[B]

Exactly. You get. Well, usually people write books, people talk about it and you get it. Also. You can see the sense of. It's set in the history. Isn't that you. I see how important that was. It's very difficult to judge, I think, when things are happening, how important they're going to be and how important they're not going to be. You know, one, if you're looking at the history of the BBC, you might look at The. The events of this week where the director General and the head of news both departed, that could be a real turning point of the BBC if you're looking back at five or 10 years and it may be a good thing or a bad thing, but you won't know for many years.

[A]

It might be irrelevant.

[B]

It might be irrelevant, exactly. So, anyway, the deal was a film we made for Channel 4 and it was critically a big hit and also was on HBO as well. So it did really well for us and it launched Peter as a. As a proper serious writer and it, you know, obviously didn't. Didn't do me any harm either. And I think we were. We were looking for a follow up.

[A]

So at this point, you've got your own business.

[B]

No, no, I'm running. This is itv. Yeah. No, by this point, I've taken over the drama, though.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I absorbed the drama department sort of slightly because, basically because the people of. Who were running it, I was running the comedy department and there was a drama department alongside. I didn't have anything to do with the drama department. It was nothing to do with me. And I didn't have any designs on it, in all honesty. But at the time when they suddenly left, I thought, oh, that might be quite interesting. But I wasn't. Anyway, I got it.

[A]

And so that was an important moment in your.

[B]

It was an important moment and I had a bit of a. There was a bit of a division at ITV about whether to give it me or not. I mean, again, I think I've always divided people some, you know, actually, I don't like to be divided. I think there's always been one or two people who are. I think it's one or two. Not really a division. Big division. You know, I have. I've always had as many enthusiastic supporters as a. As. As those who. Right.

[A]

So not everyone wanted this to happen, but it did happen.

[B]

It did happen.

[A]

And your trajectory.

[B]

Well, I set myself up in a way, yeah. And I kind of, you know, I set myself up slightly because I, I, at the interview for. I was interviewed for the job and they said, well, what would you do with Granada Drama? Now? Granada Drama had. Had. Had many glories in the past. It was still. It was still very decent. But the big glories of the past were Cracker and Prime Suspect. And so I said an interview rather boldly, oh, I definitely bring back Prime Suspect with Helen Mirren. And they all sort of lean forward and went, oh, that, that's great. Would you. Would you? Yeah, I said, you know, It's a tremendous brand. And, you know, it's seven or eight years since it's been on and I don't know why you, you know, you don't continue it. And I'd like to bring it back. And, you know, and the thing about Prime Suspect, it sold incredibly well around the world. So this was kind of music to the ears. Here was a guy who's planning to not only run the drama thing, but also bring back one of the most successful shows. But I had no evidence whatsoever to back this suggestion up. Anyway, I got the job. And of course, they almost immediately said, so great, so when's Prime Suspect coming back? I went, yeah, right, okay. And, you know, I rang up Helen Mirren's agent, who just laughed. Hella's got no interest in doing privacy. She's in Los Angeles. I said, I know, but I mean, I, you know, couldn't she just fit it in? I mean, couldn't we, you know? I said. She said, absolutely not. I know. No, I'm sorry. Ridiculous idea. Anyway, I persevered as one has to do, and I, And I, I took a different tack and I, I said, look, eventually I said, look, will you just ask Helen would at least meet me for a cup of tea in a. In a. In a. In a nice place. Very, very fond of Claridges. It's a good, it's good. People love clarities.

[A]

People do tea and clarify.

[B]

No one says tea enclarges.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Well, we did a lot of our research for, For a lot of these films when you're trying to wine and dine somebody, a politician or somebody, you know, interesting. It's a. Tea in Claridge's is always a good one. It also suggests it's not too long. It's not.

[A]

That's the thing. It's not as long as lunch.

[B]

Yeah, if you say lunch, they go.

[A]

It'S late in the day as well. It's an expensive cup of tea, but who's paying anyway?

[B]

So my T was when she was next in. In. In. In London, because she was often flew in and flew out. Would she at least meet me for a cup of tea? And I could put to her what I was trying to suggest. And eventually the agent very decently said yes, and I met Helen and I got on with her very well. She was naturally quite cautious, but I basically put to her the advantage of Prime Suspect, which was because you had a brand, because she's playing a detective. It's a detective show, so therefore it's hugely popular. But you could do subjects that were much more, not just interesting, but not so much even controversial, but just edgier, a much more interesting and contemporary political story. That's basically what I put to her. And so I did what became Prime Suspect 6 and Prime Suspect 7 and 7 was the one that won huge amount. Well, both won lots of, lots of awards. But Prime Suspect 7 was particularly interesting because when Prime Suspect was launched in the early 90s, it essentially was. Its shtick was it's a woman in a man's world. And I know that that seems extraordinary now in 2025 to be discussing that, but in the early 90s, it really was still unusual. And it was a very male world, isn't it? The police. So that's what, that's why Prime Suspect had such impact. And Helen was completely brilliant in it. So a final Prime Suspect I wanted to do was an older woman in a man's world, because that's another whole different thing. A woman in her 50s and 60s who's facing retirement but not quite out the door. And that male resentment is, was, I think, you know, was, was very real. And, and also we made the character an alcoholic as well. And anyway, it was. Helen was very brave in agreeing to, to go along with this. And it was sort of, it was, it was, they were tremendous hits and they were huge in America. And it really opened up my whole ambition, I think I sort of realized, because this is a long time before streaming and you know, it was still television in the UK in the early 2000s. The noughties, I think it's called, isn't it? You know, it was still pretty provincial really, you know, so to get a show that was being broadcast on HBO and going to awards in America was something, something special. And HBO had a special fascination for me and for many of people like me, because HBO had been producing this extraordinarily good, high end, quality work. And I think we all admired it. You know, that's what we wanted to do. And so to get shows on hbo as actually prime said it wasn't on hbo, but we were getting shows on HBO was just, was a, was an ambition. And that's really what opened me up to the possibility along with the success of the Queen, the movie, to, to doing it. And the link between all of this was, was Helen. Because I had to read through for one of the prime suspects when she came in. People are so pleased to see her and there was such, such reverence for her. I just noticed that everybody nodded as if, you know, they were in the presence of the Queen, right? And it was like a light that went on my head. I thought, my God, that's. Oh, God, of course she could play the Queen, couldn't she? And I sat through this whole read to just thinking about this and I finally thought, oh, my God, she's the perfect age. The Queen was in the week that Diana died. So you said it all sort of started to come together right in the middle. It was just a bit of a flashbulb moment, to be truthful. And, I mean, the story wasn't as simple to find and Peter did a brilliant job in finding it. But eventually it all came together brilliantly and we got Stephen Frears to direct it and it all started to roll.

[A]

It was shortlisted for an Academy Award.

[B]

It was. We went to the. We went. We went to the. We went to the awards. I sat very near Martin Scorsese and he turned to me and he said, you did great getting here. And I thought at the time it was a. It was a tiddly bit patronizing, but actually, on. On reflection, I don't think it was patronizing. I think. I think we were very privileged to be there and I was privileged to be talking.

[A]

I think you did great getting there. Brilliant success.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And a great film.

[B]

Yeah. The Queen was a bit of a watershed for many reasons. Firstly, it's. It's sex success was obviously pretty spectacular. I mean, it made a hell of a lot of money for it, itv. And for me, just. It brought me into sort of a whole different level of recognition, I suppose, in a certain way, and for Peter and everybody involved. But it was also. It felt like the end of my ITV career, to be truthful. I had been a bit restless at ITV and I felt there was a new. I mean. I mean, I felt. I mean, I knew that quite a few of my pals were running their own companies and they were doing pretty well, you know, and the government legislation had allowed production companies do in their own rights. So if you had made successful shows, you could make money. But it wasn't the money particularly that I was interested in. It was really the freedom to do the sort of shows I wanted to do without being restrained. I mean, there was a moment on the Queen when it nearly didn't happen because there was opposition from the senior management. And one senior manager who was. Who didn't want to see it happen, just didn't really understand what we were doing and didn't think we should be wasting our time. We had to wait till he went on holiday before we could get it through the.

[A]

Okay, so.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, well, you know, that's fine, but not fine. And we got it through, so it's okay. But I just thought, you know, I think this. I think there's a different way of doing these shows, and if we're now in a different game, if we're able to make movies that make money and what have you, then maybe I should take the plunge and start up a company. And that was pretty daunting, if I was honest with you. I mean, that took a long time, as my wife remembers, you know, to hum and ha. Should. I shouldn't. I was. I was on a big salary, three kids.

[A]

That's hard to do later in a career, isn't it? I was successful.

[B]

I was approaching 50.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. And I thought, you know, and. And my wife wanted to just look after. We were blessed with a daughter and she wanted to stop work and just write books and look after the daughter. So that was no income coming in there. I said, okay. Right. And it was so. It was hairy and. But I thought, well, why not?

[A]

You know, Looking back, you're glad you did this.

[B]

Clearly, it was the best. One of the best things I ever did. Of course, I'd looked at other things. I talked to other people.

[A]

It's important for people listening, I think, to hear that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because lots of people wonder, should I make that?

[B]

Well, for you, it works. Yeah. I mean, I had conversations with quite a few other companies about joining them as partners and this and that, but none of them really seem to be. Give me the potential excitement of doing it on my own, you know.

[A]

So you really want just to do your own thing. I mean, just to have the freedom.

[B]

And I think I just wanted to be unleashed. I think there was the entrepreneurial spirit of his sense of it wanted. Oh, you know, God damn it, why don't just do it? And people would say, go on, Andy, go do it. You know, and so it did.

[A]

But, I mean, 18 years ago.

[B]

This was 18 years ago. Exactly. So we set it up. Left Bank Pictures.

[A]

Why'd you call it that?

[B]

Yeah, it's a good question. I. I couldn't decide for many months about what to call it. And it was a sort of. It was a shower moment. It was a bit of another light bulb moment. I. I am prone to these. I. I mean, you'll laugh. It's left because my. I politically lean left rather than right.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If you get a hull, you're the best.

[A]

Okay. After this.

[B]

Yeah, that was one thing. The second thing Was bank suggests security, reliability, safety and that's very important. So I was really thinking about the image of the company. What was the, what was the name and what you can project was really important. So I give a lot of thought to that because I knew you're setting up a company and people. What's the name? What are they?

[A]

What Head and Heart in there. You've got Head and heart.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. So, so, so that was basically it. So it's the kind of Left Bank. And of course the Left bank is the arty party for the part of Paris which we all like to swing down galleries and stuff like that. So it felt, it had a resonance of familiarity and. And I was very struck by a friend of mine who had left Hull University around the same time as me and he had set up a. What he did. He had a. I don't know how, why, but he had a van, a white van. And so he used to move a lot of. A few of us when we left university, he'd do the removals. I'll load up my van. Anyway, this lent to setting up a removals business in London.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he called, he, he, he, he decided to, to put two things together. Cadogan Square and the Tate Gallery. And he called it Cadogan Tate.

[A]

Oh, that's quite a famous removal company.

[B]

Exactly. But you see, you. Well phone them. They've been around for years. It must be. They call. Do you know what I mean?

[A]

It was just a guy from our university.

[B]

It's just another chancer from Hull.

[A]

Yeah, good for him.

[B]

So I think Left bank was that. That' all would remember that story. And I thought that's what I need, that sort of familiarity. So people feel. It's a company that. Absolutely. Because the thing about. If people are going to, you know, broadcasters are going to give you some serious money, they need to be reassured that you're you.

[A]

And you thought the word bank would help with that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Interesting. And it did.

[B]

It did. I think, I think it did. I mean, you can never tell, but I mean. So the idea of the company was Left Bank Limited and Left Bank Pictures Limited and it would. We were set out to be to make ambitious global drama. Drama for an international market place. Because that's where I thought it was going because I could see, I couldn't see the streamers. I mean, I'm not that. I'm not, I'm not that far sighted, but I, I definitely could see the need to grow drama in a bigger way that would work in different countries around the world. That's what I got a taste for.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We're doing the Prime Suspects and Granada and then.

[A]

So what did you start off with, with?

[B]

Well, we started well, one of the very early shows was Ken Branagh in Wallander, which was a bunch of books that had not been made. There were a bunch of detective books in Sweden. They were very good books, actually. And someone called me up and said, would I be interested? And. And. And my father in law was Michael Frayne and he was a big fan of the writer. And it wasn't really Michael's thing, but I had remembered this is where you take sort of. What is it? It's a. It's a. It's a. It's a network of different inferences and moments. So around this time, Michael was writing a play called Copenhagen, which is one of his best plays. And so he's spending a lot of time in Denmark. And he called in on the way back from the airport to our house and dropped one of Henning Menkel's, he's the novelist books off and said, I don't really read crime novels normally, but this writer is really extraordinary, you should have a look. And at the same time, this producer called me from Denmark, say he'd got the rights, would I be interested? And I just thought, there's a confluence here, you know, and confidence is really interesting, I think. And it's confidence and instinct combines, I think. Bang. I don't know why. Got to get in there. Bang. And so that was, that was. That was. So they had them raw material. I don't know quite what it was that made me reach for Ken Branagh. I didn't. I knew Ken's assistant quite well. I just suddenly thought. I thought, you know, I was just thinking about, trying to think about who would do it, who would. Who would make a difference. And Ken was having one of those periods where he slipped away a little bit from visibility, you know, I don't. I mean, I don't mean that he was in the doldrums. I don't think he was at all. But I. He hadn't done anything desperately high profile for a little while. And I called up the assistant and I said, is there about any chance, do you think Ken would in any way be interested in doing this? And she said, well, funny enough, he does like these novels. And I said, do you think you'd meet me for a drink? I promise you. We met in the pub for 20 minutes, we shook hands and that was it.

[A]

Fantastic.

[B]

I said, look, just be a partner. We'll just shake hands. There's no need for. I mean, obviously we paid him well, but it wasn't about trying to. I think when you have a chance to work with Keeg or great talent, you've just got to put yourself on the line and say, right, let's do this as partners. We're, you know, will work together. You are, you know, this is your show as much as mine. We're going to make it with you and for you and all that kind of stuff will give you full support and bang, you know. But I'm really interested in listening to your view on it and how the character should be. I mean, you're dealing with someone like Ken. He's proper. He's really proper, you know, incredibly impressive experience to work with him. And we did four series of it. It was fantastic.

[A]

So that really got your business.

[B]

Really got business, yeah. And then I did another show, which really. The funny thing is that Wallander was good. It was the BBC and it sold well around the world, which is so. It was everything I wanted to make. Cinematic television. That was the key phrase that I would drop everywhere. Cinematic television, which is really just about having ambition, to be honest with you. It's just shooting it well, using the best technicians you can and the best directors you can find and having ambition, you know, don't start here. When you can start here, start here. Let's start higher. Let's just go even higher. Let's start. Let's. Blue screen. What do you think we could. If. If all the stars align, could we achieve. Well, that's what we're going to start. That's. And then maybe finish even higher. Who knows? Aim high. Absolutely.

[A]

I'm hearing it makes complete sense to me.

[B]

Yeah, I'm a bit obsessive, but I mean, why not?

[A]

What's cinematic television?

[B]

Cinematic television. But so the other. Rather bizarre. And I've told the story a few times, but it was. Was involved a book that I picked up in an airport on the way to see Peter Morgan for some project or other. When a plane is delayed or what have you. I don't. I usually just go and stand in the bookshop and just look and just let whatever is in front of me circle in front of my eyes. See. Just see if something falls out.

[A]

But you're kind of doing this because you're looking for an idea.

[B]

Yeah, just looking for anything.

[A]

Is there a story here?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, that might make cinematic television. Absolutely.

[B]

And, you know, there is, but.

[A]

Yeah, there will be some way right.

[B]

In front of my Eyes. Very particular occasion was this book all packed up, well piled up, which was an action thriller and it was called Strike Back. And, and I think the tagline was, you know, a Sky TV report is kidnapped by the Mujahideen, something like that. Picked it up, bought it, bunged it in my, in my rucksack and went off. Never read it. So three or four weeks after the trip to Austria, I had, I suddenly realized I had this meeting at Sky Television, who. And the head of drama. I really liked her. She's, she was smashing, she was sort of a pal. But she'd never commissioned anything because it didn't have much money at that time. So I didn't really expect to be selling anything. I just thought I'd go in, have a natter, have a bit of a gossip, have a coffee with her and come home. But I did remember I had the sky book, so I just threw it into the briefcase and went to meet her. Anyway, we chit chat away about 10, 15 minutes and she suddenly paused, said, listen, listen, great news, great news, I've got money, it's got to be a book and something entertaining and, or maybe even action. I said, I said, stop there, stop there. Pulled the book out, this is it. This is your new series. She said, that's great. What is it? I said, what's the story? I said, you know, it's just, don't worry about the story. And she went next door and came back with an order of 10 shows.

[A]

Really? Yeah. And then you had to read the book?

[B]

No, I never read the book. My job to read the book.

[A]

How do you make the show?

[B]

You know what? Of course I rushed out the meeting. First call was to my lawyer, right? I said, charlie's called. Charlie, that's lovely, Charlie. Been working for a long time. I said, charlie, I don't care what you're doing. Drop everything, ring this guy writer's agent immediately and buy, buy the by the rights. Don't, don't take no for an answer. And close today, please. Anyway, we got it. So it was a bit hairy. So I was selling a book I didn't even have. Never mind, I haven't read. Yeah, Anyway, I've told that story.

[A]

You have to take a leap here in theory.

[B]

Series went on to eight series and we, and we did it with hbo. Not the first series, but HBO came in on the second and then it ran for eight series and that's what made Left bank all the money. And when we sold initially to Sony after four years, it was Strike Back that Had driven the. Driven the old bottom line right up to make us very.

[A]

So this was so. So from 2007-11, you were making Strike Back.

[B]

Yeah, I was making loads of shows. But the Strike, that was the one that made the money.

[A]

And then in 2011, Sony came in and bought. Bought a stake in your.

[B]

Well, that's not a rather odd thing happened, actually, because, you know, I mean, I'm gonna be honest, we started LifeBlock with three people. Four people. Three or four people. I mean, that was it. And, you know, we had an absolutely hard line rule. No lunches, no taxes, no expenses, and we all paid ourselves, I don't know, 100,000 or 125,000, whatever it was. Anyway, that's what I was paying. You had. We had just, you know, no real development money or if you were going to spend anything, it was almost worth spending our own money, you know. Well, it was our own money. But I sold 25% of the company to set. Kick it off to the BBC for a million quid. So we were sort of worth 4 million quid from kickoff point.

[A]

So that was the money you had to finance what you were doing.

[B]

So we had a million quid to keep us going for as long as we could. And a million quid doesn't really go very, very far, even in.

[A]

Not if you're paying people.

[B]

No, no. And, and, and your offices and everything. So we, we. And we. It took us about six, eight months, I think, before we got a commission. Well, we got one ITV and we've got Wallander. We've got a couple other things. And then we got Strike back, I think year two or three, I forget now. So, yeah, the first couple of years were very testing and. But then it started to. To accelerate very quickly and. And then I suddenly got a call after four years. I had not really thought about this at all, actually. Maybe it's Canal Police. It doesn't matter. Anyway, so, anyway, these French guys rang up, could they come and have a meet? They were interested in our company. Yeah, sure, you know, pop in and popped in and said, look, you know, we're interested in buying you. I nearly fell off the chair. I said, why do you want to do that? You're obviously making a lot of shows. You must be making a lot of money. We haven't seen your books, but we assume you are. I said, well, you know, I don't know. I guess. Anyway, this puzzled me a little bit and I went. And then another couple of people rang me up and I was so sort of consumed with the shows wasn't that I didn't know what was going on. I did know what was going on, but I hadn't really ever thought about selling the company, to be truthful. I just wanted a company that I could make the shows without, not without interference either. I just wanted to make the shows in an environment that would be creative and would be supportive as opposed to challenging. So I went along to see a very wonderful lawyer, Mark, and I said I'm a bit puzzled. All these people keep ringing me up. He said, oh, well, look at your figures. Got the things up. He said, well, well, your ebit's going to be 4 million this year. I said yeah, yeah, well it's quite good, isn't it? He said well, it means you're worth 40 million. I said what? But you said it's about 10 maybe, you know, 8 to 10, but let's assume 10. Yeah, it's about 40 minutes. I just thought, Jesus.

[A]

So you were surprised?

[B]

I just hadn't even thought about it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then, so we, then we went into this, this. So I thought when I went back and obviously talked to the troops, I said what do you think? I mean they'd all had, they all had it. I mean I wasn't the sole. I mean obviously the BBC had 25 of them. Of the. The other 75 pretty well everyone who had started with me had a decent A chunk anyway. I said what do you think? I mean, should we. What's the advantage? What's the disadvantage? Well, the advantage was, was twofold. One obviously it was you would get a certain amount of money which was obviously good and it had been quite hard times. The other one really, to be honest with you, was that the business was developing internationally quite fast and an American partner was something that seemed to be. Make a lot of sense. You can't work in America without partnering in America. They are not interested. I mean the Americans are very, you know, I'd learned that long ago and going to America you've got to partner up with Americans. They're not going to let you come in and take money out of their patch unless they're going to get a hefty chunk baduce, you know. And so it did seem to be not a bad idea that we should perhaps entertain this. And then we, you know, one thing led to another and of course we appointed somebody to help to sell the company. And this was a fairly familiar route for production companies. We weren't the first to sell and eventually after there was a lot of interest, it Was quite a process, but an interesting process. And then eventually Sony bought the company and that was good in every respect, really.

[A]

Did they buy out the BBC as well?

[B]

They bought the BBC out. I gave the BBC back.

[A]

So they got a good return on there.

[B]

10 million in four years. I thought it was damn decent of them. Yeah, damn decent. But the point was Sony were buying it over five years, so there wasn't any real immediate change. But.

[A]

But Sony. I mean, I think of Sony as a Japanese film, but Sony have a huge. Obviously studios in America.

[B]

Yeah, Columbia Pictures.

[A]

So you think of it as the American part of Sony.

[B]

That was it. Yes, yes, exactly. The big studios in the us. I mean, it's a big company. I mean, it's not one of the biggest studios. Well, it's one of the smaller studios, but still a pretty big company.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And of course, all the electronics, all that kind of stuff, they were good, so. And actually, I think there's no question that Sony was. Our partnership with Sony, which it was a partnership at that time, essentially was vital in underwriting the crown deal with Netflix.

[A]

So. Yeah, tell me about that, because Netflix was sort of just emerged, if you. From my perspective, your show the Crown was the first thing I watched on Netflix. So this sort of came. Yeah, in the uk, at least.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They used the crowns as a hook, didn't they?

[B]

Yeah, that's exactly why we got such a hefty.

[A]

So how did that all come about? What happened?

[B]

Yeah, well, basically what happened. This, really. So in terms of the show, it was an extension of my relationship. Relationship with Peter Morgan. So we had done the Queen, which was at Granada. That was the last thing I'd done at Granada. Oh, itv. Then Peter did a few other things, but we did some stuff together, but not very much until after I had sold the company. Peter had some reservations about working for me. I never really quite understood that. But anyway, let's. He felt he was uneasy about working for. Working for Left bank for some reason or other. But when I sold the company to Sony, he completely relaxed and said, oh, that's okay, I'll work with you now. I said, fine. So one thing led to another. First he. He wanted to do a play called the Audience, which was a sort of spin off essentially of the Crown.

[A]

I saw it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Explain what it was.

[B]

Well, it was essentially Peter had become obsessed with the private sessions between the Prime Minister and the Queen because there's no recorded material. The Prime Ministers have always sort of agreed never to write about what they started to discuss with the Queen. And the Queen obviously has never published anything either. So in essentially those meetings are entirely unknown, whatever transpired. So that's sort of perfect for a writer who can make the whole thing up. And Peter likes to do that. It was very good instinct about what was probably said or what might have been said.

[A]

I remember the Queen like Harold Wilson in the play.

[B]

Well, I think that's true. I mean, it is true. I mean, so what Peter does is draw heavily on research and he obviously got a very wide network of people who talk to him about life in the court and the politicians and as we all do, but Peter in particular, and he just thought it was a great idea and could we get Helen back to do it? And I got involved in the play and we got helen back and etc. So the audience was successful, was on the stage in London and it went to New York, which is, you know, it was a great experience. I didn't get. I mean, I was involved as a producer, but I mean, you know, it ran for a few months, very successful. And then there was a short passage of time and then Peter was noodling, he was working on film scripts. And I kept saying to him, you know, Peter, you should do. You should do your big series. You know, you are like, there's a great American writer called Aaron Sorkin who's done some brilliant stuff. And it's very like, Peter writes contemporary political historical pieces, like West Wing, stuff like that. It's very Peter and I met Sorkin. It was so like meeting Peter Morgan. I couldn't believe it. But anyway, I kept saying, come and be the Aaron Sorkin of the uk. But he was in New York at the time as well, so eventually came back and then he sent me an idea initially of the young Elizabeth and the old Churchill, and he said, did I think it was make a movie? He'd written a couple of pages and I read it, I thought, you know, it's. Yeah, this is interesting. It's just something in this. I don't think it's a movie, though. I don't think it's quite big enough to be a movie somehow. It wasn't quite the Queen. It wasn't, you know, you know. So I had a long chat to him on the phone and he said, well, there's a lot of material around this. Maybe it's a miniseries or maybe it's a longer. I don't know. And then within like a week, he sort of phoned me back, said, I think it's. I think it's. I think it's three series. I said, yeah, it is. The Queen. So about the Queen. The Queen's at the center of it. And then about two days later, if I don't know, it's not three. Six, it's six. Six series. We change the cast every two years. The Queen's at the heart of the whole thing and it's going to cost a fortune and it's only worth doing if we get the money. But it could be brilliant. I said, well, that sounds great. I mean, I mean.

[A]

But I was a good summary of what it turned into.

[B]

Well, I mean, to be honest with you, absolutely what Peter wanted, he, he, he wrote and we delivered. I mean, it never changed. It never changed. But the, the challenge of the crown, just to try and bet that was it, Peter. I mean, so did I. I wanted to do it really well. That meant an expense, a big budget. We knew that ITV couldn't afford it. We knew that the BBC couldn't afford it. And we knew that the BBC probably couldn't do it. They probably could have done the early years. Okay, but they're going to get into a lot of old hot water because.

[A]

Of the politics of it.

[B]

Yeah, Once you get into Diana, all that kind of stuff, once you get nearer to the present times, as we did, they became, they would. We knew the BBC would become very, would be very challenging for them because they're inevitably close links with the Palace. So. So we didn't quite know how we're going to make that work, but. So it was not good. And so we thought, well, we knew somehow we had to find an American partner. We thought HBO would probably maybe do it with one ITV or Channel four.

[A]

What sort of budget were you thinking this first season?

[B]

Well, it became 5 billion an episode.

[A]

5 million. And how many episodes in a season? So 50 million. Starting price.

[B]

Yes, but it wasn't, it was. It was a bigger ask than that because we were asking for two series at a go. So we were asking for 20 hours.

[A]

So you're looking for $100 million.

[B]

We were looking for 100 million. Commitment. It was.

[A]

Right. So there are many people who can write that sort of check. Breathtakingly bonkers. Yeah. Okay. So how did you pull this off, Andy? Well, it's pretty amazing. And a lot of people enjoyed the crowd around. So what did you do? I want to hear this story.

[B]

Well, we set up a week in, in the first week in January, whatever it was, 2013 or 14, I got 2012 or 13. So we'd had the BBC and ITV interest Pre Christmas. And then we went, there's myself and Peter Morgan and Stephen Dawdry, the director. And we went and did a meeting every day for one, for one week in la and that was HBO and Fox and Showtime and whoever else it was. And then Netflix was on the last day and each of the four U.S. broadcast big broadcasters that all the bosses were there for us, which is impressive but also, I mean, you know, Stephen, daughter and Peter, I mean if not, if not me, I mean they are big names, Oscar nominated and all that kind of stuff. So you'd expect that they all liked the idea. They all, Peter had written the first script, they all loved the script. But you know, I mean they would lean Forward saying seriously, 100 million for a pile of British history. I mean really, can't you do a miniseries about Diana? Like just four hours. That's what they wanted.

[A]

That's what they wanted.

[B]

So there were. The conversations were intelligent and smart and thoughtful, but they were a pass. And so we ticked, you know, towards that final meeting with this, this.

[A]

You must have got the message back at this point from the others. Had you disconsolate at this point.

[B]

It's all parting, they were all passing.

[A]

So you knew this was your last shot.

[B]

So by the Thursday night we basically thought we're going to be going home Saturday or Friday night. I think we're going up at Friday night empty handed. Good try. Nice idea. Ambitious project.

[A]

Just one for the draw.

[B]

Yeah, but Netflix were interesting. They, I mean obviously they've been around for a little while but they had only just started doing producing original programs.

[A]

Talk me through the meeting, what happened?

[B]

Well, they were all there so I had, I had rung the head of Sony studio to say would you please make sure that Ted Sandros is in the, in the room. I mean we thought he probably would be but I wanted to double check that he would be because I also we hadn't met Ted Sandra's at this point, but we, yeah. Cindy Holland and Ted Sandros were the two people we had to have in the room. You gotta always get the bosses in the room.

[A]

They're the decision makers.

[B]

They're the decision made. Don't. There's no point in going punting to people who aren't making decisions. It's just a waste of time.

[A]

So this is good advice for people?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. You can't always secure it, but you've.

[A]

Got to do it. But you've got to try.

[B]

Yeah. And it was my job to make sure they were in the room. That's. I Mean, that's the producer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm not. I'm sort of pitching, you know, it's. Peter is really pitching. You know, Peter's on the line here. It's Peter script. You know, it's Peter's idea. It's his script. Stephen is a brilliant director, but, you know, he's. He's always going to get work as a director and I'm obviously the, you know, the person who's going to make sure it's all going to happen, but I have to make it happen. This is the key point, the selling point. This is the. This is when I really have to.

[A]

That's where you have to deliver.

[B]

Yes. Absolutely vital that I, I, that, you know, and this is actually, I have to be honest, I love this moment. I do love selling, but it's hairy and it's, it's. And it's not terrifying, but it is terrifying if you fail. It's just, you know, it's. Anyway, Anyway, we didn't.

[A]

So what happened? Well, it works. Where did it work on the last day?

[B]

Yeah, it was. They literally bought it in the room. I mean, Ted said, this is fantastic. You know, we. We sort of discussed it and they asked a couple of questions and Ted said, this is fantastic. We want this. You know, this is great. And we were like, I mean, literally, can't.

[A]

You're a little bit surprised, but not showing it.

[B]

And Peter said. And he. And he said to Peter, have you got any, Any questions? And Peter said, I don't want any notes. And Ted said, that's fine, Peter. No notes. What, they're picking up 100 millions and there's going to be no notes? I mean, it's like, like it's unreal.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And someone. Actually, I met someone recently.

[A]

When you say no notes, what's that mean?

[B]

Well, because when you have writers hand in their scripts, they normally get piles of executive notes by saying, I don't like. What about this bit? What about.

[A]

Oh, so you've got. No, no, that's. I didn't know that's what you meant. Yeah, that's so interesting.

[B]

So Peter was very excited.

[A]

So you just got exactly what you wanted?

[B]

Pretty much, yeah. And I.

[A]

Probably why it was so good.

[B]

I mean. Well, I, I think. Well, Peter would argue that's exactly it. There was very not. There was a lot of support, but no interference, which is. It was a different thing. Yeah, but I met someone recently who said, I remember you seeing you, Andy, on a plane coming back from your Netflix meeting where you sold the crown he said you were just literally so happy you were bouncing around the airplane.

[A]

So that was the beginning of what turned out to be pretty incredible journey.

[B]

It's an incredible journey. And of course what we realize in the fullness in time was that we were in the right place at the right time, that Netflix had already decided. At that time we were selling Netflix, were only in the uk, the US and a bit of Scandinavia. That's all. No one else. But they had obviously planned their global rollout and they were looking for really good content. Yes, and content with ip, as, you know, this mysteriously much used phrase, IP intellectual property. And you can't get a much better piece of British IP than the Royal family money, to be honest with you. I mean, that's a bit crude, but it's true, it's true. So it was perfect for all English speaking territories. Everyone was familiar with the Queen. So, you know, we was great. And, and, and they were very good to their word. They, they, the money was not a problem. The support system was fantastic. They took incredible time and care to launch the show properly. And we were at the vanguard of something amazing which was global television. I mean, suddenly, instead of making shows that just dropped in Wakefield and Warrington and Wilmslow, they're dropping in Angola and Wyoming, Wichita, you were getting, you were being told that, you know, 30 million people have been watched it this week. Around 30 million, that sort of thing. I mean.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's very satisfying.

[B]

Yeah, it was just a wholly different thing. And we had these global drop dates, you know, you know, November 27th, the crown drops around the world, wherever you are, you know, I mean, this is just extraordinary.

[A]

Coming through is a new. New.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the whole television has totally changed at the time. The 50 years I've been working in television, from those humble days of, you know, writing trailers for, for Granada Television through to kind of having global television shows drop. Unbelievable. I mean, and of course the, you know, the, the show grew exponentially with Netflix growth. So the, the, the, the figures of the show just go up and up and up and up and up and up, as did the budget. But the budget needed to, in a.

[A]

Sense, so the budget went up. So you wanted to do cinematic television. Yes, this was the sort of exemplar of that.

[B]

It was.

[A]

And so how much did you get to per episode? You started off at 5.

[B]

Yes, well, it doubled, basically.

[A]

It doubled. So you were spending $10 million an.

[B]

Episode for the last pounds, I think, actually.

[A]

Pounds. That's one, that's $14 million. Almost.

[B]

We were desperately out of line with a lot of. I mean, Game of Thrones and all that. I mean, you know, it wasn't. It wasn't the most expensive.

[A]

Game of Thrones is huge production.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there were, there were. There are other television shows which are more expensive than the Crown, many of them, and mostly American, actually. But I think for the uk, we were extraordinary. I mean, it was the first UK television show that had been. Had that sort of global success and, you know, and we were able to use the best of British crews, the best of British actors. I mean, there was so many pluses about it. It was an amazingly beautiful journey for 10 years, actually. I mean, no television shows without its problems and its challenges. There were, of course, plenty of those along the road, but it was an incredible experience.

[A]

But one interesting sort of. I think it popped up as a challenge periodically was writing a drama about people who are living. Living people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And sort of how they might react or.

[B]

Well, you can't libel them, though. It's pretty straightforward. If you. You're. If you libel them, you're going to be in trouble. So all the Crown scripts are very carefully legal. We never libel people. We never say things we can't support. It's very carefully researched. I mean, of course, it's all imagined. Of course it is. But Peter's very, very clever and I think his understanding of family drama, because that's what it is essentially, and the creation of those characters are pretty, pretty.

[A]

Close to, I think, an interesting consequence that I think many people didn't see is that the Royal Family, or particularly the Queen, ended up more popular after the Crown than she was at the beginning of it.

[B]

No doubt there's a huge impact.

[A]

Huge, but a really positive one for the Royal family.

[B]

The Queen had the same thing actually, by the way, the movie. Right. The same thing is that prior to, you know, post Diana and all that stuff, the Queen was at quite a low ebb in terms of popularity, as was the Royal family generally. But the Queen, the movie really turned it round, which is ironic because they were not. They were. They were very suspicious of the movie being made. And when we, When. When we were trying to film it, we were essentially banned from everywhere in Scotland, apart from anywhere. Anything that was owned by British people was a bit of a no, no go. We had to go to the All Scandies, who owned quite a bit of Scotland these days. Yeah, I mean, they changed once the movie came out. Out. But. But initially I. I mean, I understand that there were people so the man.

[A]

From Left bank sort of did good for the Royal Family, as it turned out, as an irony.

[B]

Yeah, quite, James. Exactly. I didn't say I was a Republican, James.

[A]

No, no, no, no, that's good. Were you? Clearly not.

[B]

No, I'm not, I'm not.

[A]

So, so then taking the story forwards now you're sort of, you, you mentioned you're thinking about changing your way, moving from CEO to Executive Chairman. That's something.

[B]

Well, I think I've had a fantastic ride. We've done a lot of great shows and we're still doing a lot of great shows. We got, you know, Department Q and this City is ours, our two big hits this last 12 months and that, and that's great. But I did for the last year or so started to think, I mean, Sony fully owned the company now and that's a really good thing. You know, we've gone on a journey and our success has been underwritten and supported by Sony and they continue to, to be very incredibly helpful in tougher times with distributing the shows so that our ambition and their ambition remains aligned. So that's all good. But I did sort of feel increasingly, maybe the next five, ten years I, I could, I could spend my time being on more creative projects rather than actually running the company. And I don't say that I think running the company is fantastic, but I've done it and I've done it pretty well, I hope. I mean, we made a lot of money for everybody for 18 years. And so I decided to talk to Sony about stepping away, not stepping off or not retiring and not stepping away from the company completely, but taking a different role. It's called Executive Chair. I mean, and it's part time, it's non exclusive, but it allows me to stay across two or three of the shows that I've always been invested in and to support our new CEO, Charlotte Moore, who's come in from the BBC and to play just, you know, perhaps a wiser old man sort of type role. I don't know what that means.

[A]

So it's a transition in a way. You obviously like the creative work.

[B]

I do, but I also think that knowing when to get off the train is as important as knowing when to get on the train, in a sense. And I, I, I have thought a lot about it and I've read quite a lot about it and thought quite a lot about it and I, I, I just didn't want to be that person where people go, oh, he's, you know, he sort of lost it or he can't be bothered anymore or, you know, he's not in touch with the new, with the new trends or thoughts or writers or what have you. I mean, television is an endlessly swiftly moving business. You've got YouTube, you've got AI, you've got all these things affecting it and changing it and challenging it. And I think that's great. And Left bank needs to be absolutely there to, to meet those challenges and work out for the next five years. You know, Sony expect that, they want that, they need that. And a five year plan is something that, you know that that's, that's somebody younger and more energetic and maybe coming in from a different position, maybe managing it in a different way. It's got to be a good thing.

[A]

They might be younger, but I suspect it'd be hard to be more energetic.

[B]

Well, hearing your story, the energy's going to be still good.

[A]

You've got plenty of that. Yeah, so that's definitely apparent to me. But just I feel our conversation is coming towards an end. Have you got anything in production at the moment you want to.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Tell us a little bit about just so. Well, yeah, that would be interesting to our listeners.

[B]

Well, I've had a. Quite a long relationship with James Graham, the writer who I think is absolutely.

[A]

So what's James Graham written for people who, who maybe don't know who he is? Well, he's currently a lot of good stuff.

[B]

Yes, quite a lot of good stuff. Yeah. James Graham's written Dear England, which is the very successful play about Gareth Southgate that is our current project because we're turning that play into a four parter for the BBC and we're right in the middle of that now and it's going out next May on BBC.

[A]

And could you change the end so England win?

[B]

Yes, we know we can't change the end, but we can. We have got Thomas Tuchel in it, so.

[A]

All right, super. Thomas Tuchel in this.

[B]

I also did Quiz with James, which is another highly successful play about the millionaire who wants to be a millionaire.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Was it.

[A]

Oh, what, the, the one that, the.

[B]

Major, the coughing major. Yes, that was great fun. And we got some other projects with James. I mean, James, like Peter Morgan, is just an incredibly exciting writer who wants to make sense of the modern world, the British world. And that's what really interests me. You know, I'm a British producer and I like to make stuff about the uk, I think, I mean that's, it's what interests me and I think it's what interests other people. Actually, beyond the uk, if you're making shows that are intrinsically British, they get it, they understand it and they really enjoy it, so.

[A]

Well, that's so good to hear because we. We get to consume a lot of stuff from America.

[B]

We do.

[A]

So we need to have British producers producing, really.

[B]

But the demand for British stuff is very good. I mean, I didn't make Adolescence, I wish I had done, but I mean, look at that. That is, in many senses, quite a small piece, but its impact has been huge. Why? Because it's about something which you can relate to wherever you are in the world. You know, the anxieties over the Internet and teenagers, etc. Etc. Etc. It's brilliantly written, it's beautifully performed and it's UK at its absolute best. And I think there is no doubt that in this. In this country we have a fantastic television and film industry. We are very, very good. We have fantastic technicians and great story makers. As with musicians, we've always had a long run of people who make great music and we've. And similarly, we have great artists who make great television and that's something we've got to look after and nurture and.

[A]

And preserve, cultivate and encourage.

[B]

Cultivate and encourage. And a healthy BBC is. Is certainly one of the most important ways to doing that.

[A]

Well, that's very topical.

[B]

I passionately believe in the BBC. I think it's, you know, I fear a terrible. I don't think this will happen, but I fear a sort of, you know, that the BBC could before, like Brexit, something that happens without people really fully realizing the consequences and understanding the consequences and then living with the consequences afterwards. I really hope that. I don't think it will happen, actually, because I think too many people understand and love what the BBC can offer. And I'm not trying to get away from all the controversy over the news division, but I think in every aspect of our life, the BBC is a huge important and it's what makes us very unique in the world. Nobody else has a standalone, publicly funded.

[A]

Well, so much great content they produce.

[B]

But that's why we develop new talent there as well. I mean, you know, the future of our industry is going to depend on having something which is intrinsically British and about British talent.

[A]

Well, I should declare my handy. I once worked at the PVC and I agree with what you just said. I always ask two questions at the end. All of my guests that I'm going to fire at you, Andy. The first question is, what gets you up on a Monday morning?

[B]

Ah, what gets me up on a Monday morning? Well, well, what day today is Tuesday, isn't it, actually? Well, I have become fanatical about exercise. So the answer is really very simple. I mean, one of my three or four trainers.

[A]

You've got a team of.

[B]

I've got a team of trainers. I, I have rather more than I need and one or two I just can't quite lose because I like them and the other two, that they're trying different things. But I, I, I, But I've been being a bit silly. I mean, they, some of their own videos, some of them are you, you.

[A]

Know, you get up. What time do you get up to do that?

[B]

Six. I get up at 6, 6:30 every day and then I train for seven, for an hour. So I do different things. I do Pilates and I do.

[A]

I did that today as well.

[B]

Yeah, it's good, isn't it?

[A]

I think it is. I think it's being fit.

[B]

So weightlifting. I did weightlifting today. It was great. I mean, I, I'm not trying to, you know, everybody knows the advantages of, of keeping fit and I, I've always kept fit, but I'm much more fanatical about keeping fit now. I, it gives me the energy, it makes me sleep better. Yeah, so that, so, and the other thing, I suppose it's at the same time my head is always full of ideas. I, it is, you know, what's the. Whatever project I'm mulling, you know, is in my head and I'm starting to reach for a podcast or a piece of paper or something. You know, I've got obsessed about making a film about Led Zeppelin at the moment, which will only mean something to people over 40, but stay away to heaven. It's a great story, it's a great band, it's a great story. And it hasn't, it's never really been told anyway. It doesn't.

[A]

Oh, please do it. I'd like to watch that.

[B]

But, you know, there's always this, it's not quite an idea of the week, but I mean, every, you know, there is a, an evidence and then the surf leader stuff and I find that the stuff, the idea that stays with me and I just, I can't, if I can't quite let it go, then it's, it's for real that I've really got to give it a. Crack music things are particularly hard, actually, to be truthful, for many reasons. Rights and the personality of people involved in bands and stuff like that. But I mean, they are popular, if you get it Right. You know, so.

[A]

Yeah, well, good luck with that. And my last question, Andy, from my book, why you 101 interview questions you'll never fear again is where do you see yourself in five years time?

[B]

Well, I hope that's five years. That's interesting. I hope that I've got a small coterie of much the same as I intend to be from January onwards, actually. A little bit of a teacher, a little bit in the National Film School and I'm on the board of the National Film School. So a little bit of putting back, which I really enjoy apart from anything else, a little bit of curating and producing projects or miniseries that really excite me and with writers that I really admire and you know, a fair bit of enjoying myself in walking and, and sailing and you know, holiday with.

[A]

Get a bit of time outdoors, bit of time out.

[B]

I do like traveling, I must be.

[A]

Honest, you know, I hope Department Q will carry on.

[B]

I want, I think Department Q was definitely carry On. It's a, it's a, it's a fantastic classic show and I'm very proud of it, of my, of my involvement in it. But I mean it was a, you know, Scott Frank, who wrote and directed is, is really properly talented and doing in Edinburgh was really great. I brought, you know, I've helped to bring a couple of shows to Scotland and that's giving me great pride to be. Honestly, I mean I'm, I'm all freaking.

[A]

We should say you were born in Inverness.

[B]

I was born in Inverness and so I, I feel my Scottish roots quite. My mother's passed but she, you know, I wore a kilt till I was 12. Good for you.

[A]

I hope some of the time in the future will take you back to Scotland.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Thanks for coming to talk to me, Andy. It's been a real pleasure.

[B]

Thank you, Jason. I've really enjoyed it too. Thank you.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you, Andy, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reed, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reed, Andy or Left Bank Pictures, all links are in the show notes. See you next time.