← James Reed: all about business
James Reed: all about business
6. The 4 questions you need to answer to attract and retain top talent and customers | Becky Willan, CEO of Given
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- [00:00]
James Reed
Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests of bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models, built a business empire. They're leaders in their field, and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. Consumers and workers have shifted their focus with ESG and sustainability being the new generation's priority. It's not just the service you provide that they're looking at. It's the values your brand stands for. Having a clear purpose is key to driving growth and meaningful brand impact. But what does purpose even mean, and how do you implement it into the heart of your organization long term? Joining me today on All About Business is Becky Willen. Becky is the co founder and CEO of Given, a sustainability consultancy and creative agency. She also hosts the podcast Purposing. Becky's helped brands like Ikea, John Lewis, and Virgin Media make a positive impact with Purpose Driven Growth, a leading voice in purpose and sustainability. She's dedicated her career to helping businesses become a force for good. So, Becky, thank you so much for coming in to talk with me today. You're here to demystify purpose, this word we hear so much, especially these days in business. What's it all about? What's it mean? Why is it important?
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Becky Willen
Well, I think it's worth starting with a definition, because as you say, purpose is a word that gets thrown around quite a lot. I think it often gets misused as well. But when we talk about purpose, we mean a management approach for profitably solving the problems of people in the planet. So that's not purely about csr, it's not about philanthropy. It's definitely not marketing. It's a really comprehensive approach for running a business in a way that creates value for all kinds of different people and not just for shareholders.
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James Reed
Okay, so you started a company a while ago called Given with the express purpose of sort of spreading the word on purpose. That's right, isn't it?
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Becky Willen
Yeah.
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James Reed
As a young entrepreneur, what made you think of that? I mean, why did you settle on that as your business idea?
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Becky Willen
As an economics graduate, I'd always been really interested in the power of business to shape the world that we're in. And as an idealist, from a very young age, I was a very annoying, precocious child. I think I'd always been interested in thinking about how you could use those big ideas to change the world. And so after I left university, I was looking for an opportunity to bring those two things together. And at the time in the mid-2000s, there were very few companies that were really thinking seriously about those sort of ideas. The Body Shop was one of them. So I was really lucky to get my. My first job after university working at the Body Shop, looking at everything from, you know, their first real climate change strategy to the stuff that they were really well known for, campaigning on big issues. When I left the Body Shop, I moved into consulting and I was working with big corporates. And I was really struck by how, you know, we were talking about some of the same issues, but in a completely different way. People saw them as about managing risk or, you know, very operational. Sometimes people would sort of roll their eyes when you came into the room. Cause this was like not the exciting stuff that was going on in their businesses. And it had been so different at the Body Shop. And so I guess at the time I thought, well, I think the world needs more Body Shops. And I couldn't see an organization that was set up to help big businesses think that way. So, yes, about these big issues, but to do it creatively, to connect with people. And so starting given back in at the end of 2009 was really the opportunity to create something new that could help businesses think differently about the role that they played in the world. And to make that a source of stuff that was exciting, that would create value, that would connect people with their brand and what they stood before.
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James Reed
So my first job after university was at the Body Shop sometime before you. And it's interesting because I was attracted to it for the same sort of reasons. And this was back in 1984, so a long time ago, 40 years ago now. And at that time, Anita Roddick, she just won Businesswoman of the Year. Very dynamic entrepreneur. I was attracted to all of that. But also they had these principles about not testing their products on animals and fair trade with the suppliers from the countries all around the world that they worked with. And I found that quite inspiring. So you had the same. You drank from the same cup, so to speak, which is interesting. But then you said you went to this consultancy and people sort of rolling their eyes when you were talking about this. How did you feel about that? I mean, why were they rolling their eyes? Because there's clearly something in there.
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Becky Willen
There is. And I think it was that at the time. I think, you know, these were issues that were often seen as important, but worthy. Definitely not exciting. You know, I think there's a sense of dissonance. People knew that Something needed to change. But I think there was a, you know, the sense that this was a bit of a, there was a hair shirt brigade who were, you know, telling big companies that they had to stop doing stuff right. And I think people were fed up with being told that they, you know, about what they were doing wrong rather than being presented with a picture that was exciting and inspiring about how things could change.
- [05:59]
James Reed
So you change the conversation that given, you go to them and say, hang on a minute, you don't have to think about it like that. Yeah, here's a new way. So what was your message? How did you get people started on this journey?
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Becky Willen
Well, I think I've always believed that the most exciting businesses and brands are those that stand for something more than just making decent products or making profit for their owners. And I think what's brilliant 15 years on is that I think more people are starting to believe in that too. Whether that's about attracting the best talent to work for your organization or differentiating yourselves in the market from competitors or using a bigger idea to inspire innovation, new products and services. So that's what we were really trying to lean into, I guess was to say this is about changing the way that you do things, but it's in pursuit of more value, more interesting, relevant, resilient brands and businesses. So really trying to sell the benefit of a different approach to management rather than listing out all the problems or all the things that needed to stop within an organization.
- [07:18]
James Reed
We're delighted that you're listening to this episode. Hit the follow button so that we can continue to bring you the best business insights and actionable advice to help your business and or career. Yeah, I mean you've got to believe in it though. I mean if you, I mean it's not just a tick box exercise. This will make you more successful. I mean if you're going to be in a neat erotic or body shop, you kind of, it's so right in the DNA of the companies it has. How do you get that?
- [07:46]
Becky Willen
But I think you're right, you're right. I think, I think for a long time people working in, you know, what we might call corporate sustainability, you know, have really focused on the technical discipline, you know, how do you measure carbon emissions, how do you understand in evidence based ways the environmental impact or the social impact of a business? And that's really important. But that in itself is unlikely to lead to change within an organization. What changes organizations as people. So helping people tap into a sense of purpose is a really important starting point. And I think the job that we're often brought in to do is to harness that interest in a sense of purpose and turn that into something that has real clarity and can be used as a strategic tool for that business, can help shape the culture. So what that means in practice for us is that we spend a lot of time with people in the organisations at every level. So, yes, it's really important to make sure that the leadership team are aligned, that the CEO particularly is bought into this idea of purpose being a management approach and not just a strap line that makes everybody feel good while they carry on with business as usual. But it's also important to connect with the entire organization. So understanding what is motivating to people in that organization, what problems they're trying to solve for customers, you know, what's going on in the world, that means what they do as a business matter, it's really tapping into that human side of organizations and excavating from that an idea that is bigger than the business or bigger than the category that can really start to drive that change.
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James Reed
Are you able to give me an example, just to sort of illustrate?
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Becky Willen
Yeah, yeah, sure. So I think on the last sort of point about in terms of this not being something that I think you can invent, you have to excavate it from within an organization. So a couple of years ago we worked with the John Lewis Partnership. They are an incredibly purposeful, purpose driven organization. But actually, if you tried to articulate what that core purpose was, you asked 10 different partners, never knowingly undersold, is what I remember.
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James Reed
Which is coming back.
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Becky Willen
Well, it is coming back and that's the price promise for their customers. And some people said that, some people referred to their constitution, which is the formal document that set out sort of employee owned, obviously employee owned. So, you know, that's why they have partners rather than employees. You know, some people would say, well, you know, we're a good business, but nobody could really tell you what the core purpose was. And so we were brought in to help work with the leadership team. Yes, but with the entire population of about 80,000 partners to codify what that really meant. And where we got to was this idea of working in partnership for a happier world. Now, the idea of happiness is something that you can trace right back to John Speeden Lewis, who was, I guess, the sort of the person who invented what John Lewis Partnership.
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James Reed
He sort of gave the shares.
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Becky Willen
He did, he did. And he really believed that good work improved people's lives. But what we had to look at in the 21st century was that this wasn't just an experiment in industrial democracy, which was what he was really interested in. This was also about making sure that as an organization, as a retailer, first and foremost, that there was real relevance to customers and to communities. So this idea of working in partnership for a happy world was about creating a happier people, happier successful business and a happier planet. And that then become a. Became a really important part of the partnership plan. You know, the new business strategy which is starting now to bear some fruit for the organization in terms of.
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James Reed
All right, so what are they doing then that might be slightly different as a result of this?
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Becky Willen
Yeah, yeah.
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James Reed
Definition or excavation of this?
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Becky Willen
Yes. The first things that they did was to look at how do we create a workplace that really makes our people happier? And they looked at the key sort of points in people's work lives that could be a source of all happiness or not. So they were, as a result of that, they were one of the first major retailers to introduce equal parental leave. Recognizing that having kids can be an amazing moment of happiness for people. And how can an employer really support people in those moments? So that was a real standout moment. They also, again, because they've always believed in the role of meaningful work in helping people be happy and saw that there was a particular group of people who were really sort of disadvantaged and marginalized in that young people leaving the care system. They developed a whole program designed to support young people leaving the care system into better work, recognizing that. And then they've done some really interesting stuff for their customers around, especially where it's about helping customers reduce their impact on the planet. For example. So introducing sort of buyback and take back programs. So you can see how. I think that's one of the most important things about an effective corporate or organizational purpose is that actually leads to real change within the business. And it's not just a sort of. You're not just changing the wallpaper, you're.
- [13:57]
James Reed
Really changing how things work. You have a sentence there. Working in partnership for a happier world. Yeah, it's a few words. I mean, is that what where you try and get to. With everybody who's trying to formulate a purpose, Is that what it ultimately we need to have in a business that you're saying?
- [14:12]
Becky Willen
I think so. I would say that to be a successful, purpose driven business, you need two things. You need a powerful purpose statement. So being able to provide clarity about what the role of that business is beyond, you know, just making decent products and services, but you also need to live that idea within the business. And I think the relationship between those two things is important. So in the work that we do to help organizations either define or better articulate that purpose statement, it's not just about coming up with a nice set of words. It's about trying to excavate that core idea that can really be a North Star. And whilst we're working with the organization, we put it to the test. So we say, well, what would it look like for our products and services? What would it look like for the experience that we create for people? What issues might we take a stand on? And that is the best test of whether a North Star idea, like a purpose is the right one for an organization. But beyond that, what we also find is that the more an organization starts to live it, the more powerful that idea becomes. So there's a really sort of, there's a mutually sort of reinforcing idea there.
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James Reed
Now I like this thought about excavating because I was thinking about our own journey at Reid. I mean, the company's 64 year years old. It's a family business founded by my father, alec Reed in 1960. And we settled upon a purpose a few years ago which is improving lives through work. When you say excavated, it was always there because by helping people progress in their careers and getting new jobs, we were sort of doing that, but we sort of gave it life and a language by settling on those four words. But I was thinking back and I remember the conversation because at one point it was going to be transforming lives through work. And I remember saying, well, that's. That sounds too exaggerated. So we changed it from transforming to improving lives through work. Which what I like about is everyone in the business every day of the year can do something to improve someone's life, even in a small way. Yeah, even if it's just making them a cup of tea or make them laugh or smile or whatever it is. Everyone is actionable for everyone and it's clearly defined. And I found that very helpful. You know, in terms of running a business, that's our purpose.
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Becky Willen
It's so important. And I think what you've described, I think is that the right purpose will be a really useful guide in many different ways. So yes, it should absolutely be something that everybody within the organization connects to and can see how their day to day work helps deliver that. But it's also got to be a really important strategic tool that helps set the strategy for the organization, that helps you make choices about what you won't do as well as what you will do.
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James Reed
And it really does that. I mean, we've looked at business opportunities, and I think that doesn't fit or that doesn't really take us further in our purpose. Improving lives through work. So we won't do that. We'll do something else.
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Becky Willen
Yeah, yeah. And how. I think there's an interesting question about whether you rely on the sort of cultural DNA of an organization to make that happen versus really trying to hardwire it into the organization. And I think one of the interesting differences between businesses that I guess are born with that strong sense of purpose versus businesses that perhaps have been really focused on profit maximization, say, over the last 30, 40, 50 years, is that in organizations that are sort of almost born good, I think it's possible to rely on more of that, the cultural sort of behavioral elements. But what we find in corporates that have been perhaps run with a different set of principles is that the hard wiring piece is also really important. So when we work with Lloyd's Banking Group, it was really important to look at things like governance. When the board get together, how do we make sure that the purpose becomes part of the conversation? When we look at how investment management decisions are made around investment, that we're not relying on people's discretionary, you know, ability to use the purpose. We're really sort of helping people in that moment.
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James Reed
So Lloyds Banking Group is another company of work with. So what was their purpose?
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Becky Willen
Well, so the interesting thing about Lloyds Banking Group was that we didn't go in to change their purpose. They had a purpose statement, Helping Britain Prosper that had been defined probably about 15 years ago, certainly just after the financial crisis. And everybody in the organization knew what those three words were, there was loads of love for it. But if you asked people what it meant, how it had shaped a decision that they'd made, you know, what it really looked like in terms of impact, there just was not that clarity. So our job wasn't to come up with a new purpose statement. It was to add much greater definition to what that those three words meant in the context of the business that they were today and the strategy that they had. And one of the important things that we looked at with Lloyd's was how do we take this idea of, you know, once we've got this better idea of what helping Britain prosper means? And that was really about recognizing that Lloyds bank is unusual in the sense that it's in almost every part of the financial system in the uk and so their role can be about making sure that the way that we invest Save, borrow money, it all matters, it can all contribute to a more sustainable and inclusive future. But what can Lloyds bank do to really make sure that that happens increasingly over time? So that's the sort of core idea I guess that we got to in terms of explaining what helping Britain prosper really meant, but then how you connect that into decision making in an organization. So at the time they were also looking at their organizational values and we were asked to help make sure that as those organizational values were refreshed, that they really helped to build the kind of culture that they needed to be successful, but that also they really connected back to that core purpose. And so at Lloyd's, the organizational values are a really important way that people are asked to make sure that they can connect their day to day work back to the purpose. Because sometimes a big lofty idea like help and grit and prosper can be a bit harder to connect with. So sometimes you need to find that thing that actually sort of makes it more actionable in people's day to day roles and their values were a key part of that.
- [21:35]
James Reed
So Lloyd's got an interesting history. I mean it's a very old bank and I think it was founded originally by Quakers and people were happy to put their money with the Quakers because they knew they'd get it back. So it was a built on trust. I think that very important still.
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Becky Willen
Yeah. And so true of so many of our big financial services institutions actually built when people were prepared to pull their resources to, you know, in case the worst happened. And that's certainly the case with lots of insurance companies. I think that the thing that's, that's interesting about this idea of purpose as we talk about it is that in itself isn't a completely new idea in businesses. You know, we've got John Livers partnership, you know, famously owned by employees.
- [22:21]
James Reed
Yeah, I think it's almost the original idea. That's why you said companies born with this very much at the forefront, less so. I'm thinking of the new startup, the young entrepreneur, someone who's thinking about getting going in business. What advice would you give them? How would you build this in right at the beginning in a way that would be helpful to your future success?
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Becky Willen
Yeah, for sure. And I think firstly it is definitely easier to build it in from the beginning. I think having a clear sense of what kind of organization, what kind of business you want to be, you know, if we take the definition of purpose that we use profitably, solving the problems of people and the planet, you know, how is your Business doing that. So I think definitely getting to that initial statement of intent is really important. I would say the way that you do that is as important as the output of that work. So I think sometimes there's a tendency for that just to be an executive team sort of mission or a leadership team mission. And whilst I think it's essential to have leadership team alignment, I don't think you can just lock your senior people in a room for a day and get them to come up with it. I think if you want a purpose to really be valuable for a business, it's got to be owned by everybody. And if it's got, you know, if it's going to be owned, then the best way to do that is to involve people in the creation of it. You know, it's called the IKEA effect. And it's basically the idea that people value something much more if they've been involved in the creation of it.
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James Reed
What, you mean putting the furniture together?
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Becky Willen
Exactly that.
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James Reed
Okay, I never heard that. The ikea.
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Becky Willen
Yeah, yeah. And it's why we use a lot of. We use a methodology called co creation in our work, which is, it's not about crowdsourcing. It's not just a free for all. It's a very carefully managed process that enables, you know, often leadership teams to really collaborate with people from across the business to get to a purpose statement that is inspiring, credible and actionable. So I think that's the first step is to.
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James Reed
But if you're just an entrepreneur on your own, you know.
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Becky Willen
Oh, if you're on your own, so.
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James Reed
You'Re sort of starting up, you start with an idea, you know, some problem you want to solve for customers. How do you think about it? I mean, I mean, do you come up with the sentence on your own? I mean, you can't afford, you know, the consultancies necessarily.
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Becky Willen
Yeah.
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James Reed
What's. How do you get going in your mind?
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Becky Willen
I think it's really important to understand both the internal dynamic of the organization as well as the external landscape. So I think if you can answer four questions and then you're able to look for the themes that bring the answer to those four questions together, you can have a pretty one of the questions. So the questions are sort of, firstly, you know, capability. So what are the unique sort of assets, skills, qualities that we're good at as an organization or want to be good at? Secondly, culture. What are we like on our best day? You know, how do we work that's different. And then looking externally, context, what is going on in the world that means what we do or are going to do matters. And finally, communities. What are the problems that we're trying to solve for people, whether they are our customers or they're in the communities that we're part of? And I think if you can spend time thinking about the answer to those four questions, what you'll find what will emerge is some ideas that have real power and potency. To be a North Star for your.
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James Reed
Business, for your business or future business. Yeah, that's really helpful. The four C's. Four C. That's a good, that's a good model. I think that's very helpful. And then you, by grappling with that will potentially find an answer.
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Becky Willen
I think so. I think, you know, a lot of the work that we do is for, you know, with these big complicated organizations. John Lewis, Centrica. You know, and, you know, and so actually a lot of our job. Because I honestly think you can't outsource this work as much as I've built my career around working with organizations to do. Exactly.
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James Reed
But you are the outsource, aren't you?
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Becky Willen
We, we run a process, we, we facilitate, but it's done it. But it's got, you know, that ultimately I can't be the person holding the pen on this. This has got to come from within the organization. I think what people need is people who have done this before who know how to facilitate, who know how to hold the space between allowing or creating input and not getting to something that is just has had so much input, it's lost its potency. So that's a lot of what we're doing, I guess, is sort of that facilitation.
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James Reed
Yeah, I'm thinking if you're a manager in a business quite successful, you're making profit. Why would I want to engage in this sort of work? I mean, is it because it's going to make me more successful? Is that what you're saying?
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Becky Willen
I think it depends how you define.
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James Reed
Success journey we're on or. I mean, because I think what you're saying, if I'm hearing you, is it should make you more successful in a commercial sense.
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Becky Willen
Yes. And whether that's your main motivation or not, I think, you know that there's a question. Now, I think what we find is that businesses that are driven by purpose, so they don't just have this sort of slogan, you know, there is a purpose that is used in the organization and used effectively. They tend to attract talent more effectively. They have more motivated, productive workforces. They innovate more, they have more distinctive brands, you know, and they have more loyal customers. So there is a clear business case for doing it. I think there is there evidence for that? There is.
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James Reed
I mean those are the five things you said that I'm thinking. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I want those in our business.
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Becky Willen
Yeah, there is evidence for that. The extent to which it's causal versus relational, I think will always be, you know, will always be challenged. But you know, in, even in, you know, in the work that we do with organizations. So yeah, when we take John Lewis partnership, for example, when the refreshed purpose was properly integrated into the business, they started using it in recruitment. They saw the number of applications increase significantly, for example. So, you know, there is, you can look at these on an individual sort of case by case basis. But there is a growing amount of evidence to suggest that this is good business and that ultimately, you know, if you, anything that helps you take a long term perspective, that thinks, helps you think about value creation rather than cost production, that helps you think about what a resilient, relevant business is going to look like, I think has to be a good thing. And that's what I think purpose really helps organizations do. It helps provide clarity about the stuff that really matters. And that's got to be.
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James Reed
And it's putting value creation at the forefront.
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Becky Willen
Definitely, definitely. Because I think one of the, I think one of the ways in which purpose is misunderstood is that it's seen to be synonymous with corporate social responsibility or philanthropy, for example.
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James Reed
Yeah, talk me through the difference because that's a confusion that I think comes up quite a lot.
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Becky Willen
Yes.
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James Reed
What is the difference between purpose and philanthropy?
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Becky Willen
Well, I would say that philanthropy is generally about giving away profit you've made to good causes. And it can be somewhat discretionary within businesses. It's often seen as a sort of particular team's job to decide where that goes. And I think there's less attention paid to how that profit is generated in the first place. Whereas if you think about purpose, it's about how you make that profit in the first place. So it's about how you run the whole business. It is about trying to maximize the value for society. It's everybody's job. And I think what you find is that because it's about core business, it's much more likely to have a sort of big sustainable impact over time because it's about the way that you do business, not just some discretionary stuff that you do on the side that's outside of the core business. I think where the two can come Together is if there are sort of big issue, big sort of systemic issues that the business is trying to think about through purpose, through its purpose, it might be helpful to boost that through philanthropy. But I'd say it's always important to start with the purpose rather than start with philanthropy because it's much more likely to be impactful, sustainable and create value, not just get switched off.
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James Reed
As soon as I think of Reid as a purpose led philanthropy company.
- [31:57]
Becky Willen
Yes.
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James Reed
And we have our purpose, which is every day, everyone, I hope. But we're a philanthropy company because our largest shareholder is a charitable foundation. Yes, 18%. So everyone in the business really works one day a week for charity.
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Becky Willen
Yeah.
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James Reed
And that's how the money gets sort of recycled through to good causes from the dividends that are paid into the foundation. And I think they are very different, as you say, and they should not be confused.
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Becky Willen
And I think in those sort of family owned businesses, I think are particularly effective purpose driven organizations because I think there is that propensity, natural propensity to be able to think in generations rather than just in quarters.
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James Reed
Exactly. And well, and families are also part of communities. They've got to show their face in the street. You know, you got your name above the shop. Know that's important. Reputation.
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Becky Willen
Yeah, yeah, important.
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James Reed
Hi. I hope you're enjoying this episode of All About Business. Next April, our charity partners, Big Give will be running their annual Green Match fund where all the money raised will go to environmental charities around the world. If you know a green charity that would benefit from doubling their donations, get them to register by January 16, 2025. The link is in the show notes. Okay, back to the episode. So you've obviously done a lot of work helping organizations find their purpose, excavate their purpose, however you wish to describe it. What would you say the key, I mean, apart from calling given and getting you to come in and help, you know, what, what, how, how, how should companies go about this? If, if someone listening is thinking, I think our company could do better in this space.
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Becky Willen
Yeah.
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James Reed
And what are some of the things that they should start doing?
- [33:49]
Becky Willen
So I think having a clarity of purpose is a really important first step. But I think a lot of, you know, what often happens is that a company will say, well, we've got our purpose statement, job done. And I think actually what I like to remind clients about is that that moment is the starting gun rather than the champagne cork moment. Because actually, you know, there will be some things that naturally happen that will be aligned to that sense of purpose. But for a Lot of organizations, actually, it's quite a lot of stuff that would need to change. And so what we would encourage people to think about is that. That in a really holistic way. So, you know, how do decisions get made within the organization? Is it always going to prior? You know, it's. Is it always about prioritizing profit and cost or risk? How do we make sure that when big and small decisions get made, it is really in pursuit of purpose? And governance is so often boring, but it's really important in this space. I think when you're thinking about innovation and new ideas, that can be a really powerful application of the purpose in practice and often internally as well as externally. That's where often the kind of the evidence for the purpose living can be most easily felt when you do new things. I think the role of culture and engagement is really important. So how are you equipping your leaders to lead with purpose and role model the behaviors that really mean that that's possible? And then you've got the hardwiring piece. So, you know, are the core policies, systems, processes going to help people make decisions that are aligned to or driven by the purpose, or are they going to get in the way? You know, how do you reward people within the organization? Is that linked to purpose? You know, and that could be informal or formal recognition. You know, people that get promoted, are they people that are the, you know, most sort of powerful champions of the purpose, or are they people that are really successful and don't pay any attention to that? So I think that's when we talk about living the purpose. It's all of. It's the collection of all of those things together so that it is genuinely embedded in the fabric of the organization, not just a sort of mantra that you might see at the beginning of a slide deck, or it sort of begins with that.
- [36:20]
James Reed
I mean, I was struck by what you were saying about the people. Yeah, Managers, leaders. How do you get people to sort of embrace this and live it and make sure that they're consistent? Yeah, I mean, that's clearly key to this succeeding.
- [36:36]
Becky Willen
It is. And I would say it starts with how you've developed that articulation of purpose in the first place. If you've done that in a way that people have been involved in that and you're trying to refresh a sense of purpose within an organization.
- [36:52]
James Reed
This is the ikea.
- [36:53]
Becky Willen
The IKEA effect.
- [36:54]
James Reed
Yeah. So you need to do that.
- [36:56]
Becky Willen
So you need to do that. And once you've done that, I think you've got to give People time to express doubts. I think sometimes we can be too evangelical about this stuff. And then really importantly, I think you've got to help people find their personal connection with the organizational purpose. So, you know, there is. We've often, you know, use a Japanese philosophy called ikigai, which is about finding your sense of personal purpose. And we've helped clients design engagement. There is a book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Live longer, happier and kind of more purposeful. But it's basically saying if you can connect, you know, what you can be paid for with what you're good at, with what you love, with what the world needs, then you will live, you know, and a much happier, more fulfilled life. And so if you can connect people within an organization their own innate sense of purpose to a bigger idea that exists at the business level, I think that's a really important step. So giving people, you know, the space, the, the invitation to do that and then asking them to replicate that with their teams effectively is a really important part of this. So a lot of it is about helping leaders and managers sort of have the confidence to talk about and the conviction, I guess, to talk about their own sense of purpose within the context of the corporate purpose as well as the more practical side of it too.
- [38:38]
James Reed
I like what you said about giving people space and time to express doubts.
- [38:41]
Becky Willen
Yes.
- [38:42]
James Reed
What are the sort of doubts that you get coming back?
- [38:45]
Becky Willen
Well, I think, you know, I think there's a sense that this is sort of corporate wokery.
- [38:54]
James Reed
Yeah, that could be one. And so how, how do you sort of work your way through that?
- [38:59]
Becky Willen
I think a lot of the time it depends on the organization. I think, I think what people find is that actually if they listen to the people within the organization, then it's. It's not a particular segment or demographic that want the organization that they work for to be better. It's pretty much everyone because who doesn't want to align their personal values with, you know, the work that they do. And then we've got the business case, which is growing in evidence. But one of the things that we've. We've done some research this year on what we call the purpose gap. So the difference that exists between the aspiration and of purpose statement and then the reality of the business. And I think it's fair to say that you want a bit of a gap because you want a purpose to be aspirational in a North star, but what you don't want is for nothing to have happened in that organization to get any closer to it actually being true. And so in the research that we've done this year, about half of the people that we've spoken to, 2,000 people working in big companies in the UK said that there was very little relationship between the words in the purpose statement and the experience that they have in the business.
- [40:14]
James Reed
The reality of Dayton dates on the.
- [40:16]
Becky Willen
Shop floor that, you know, their experience was either not aligned at all or only very partially aligned with that idea. And then what was interesting is that for the first time this year, we asked whether that actually mattered to them in terms of the relationship that they had with their employer. And nearly 50% of people, so 47% of people, said that their employer not delivering on their purpose would give them a reason to leave that organization. So, yeah, and what was interesting about that was that that's not a Gen Z sort of all millennial thing. That was across all.
- [40:53]
James Reed
Now I can see that being a problem with a lot of corporate initiatives coming down from the top and getting on with trying to serve the customers. And what's all this about people being a bit skeptical?
- [41:03]
Becky Willen
Yes.
- [41:04]
James Reed
How do you bridge that? I mean, when. When you've got people on the shop floor saying, well, it doesn't really make any difference to me. I mean, is it because the purpose isn't right or it hasn't been given proper expression? And perhaps, you know, you're the specialist here. How would you make that work for everyone better?
- [41:19]
Becky Willen
I think that's an interesting question in itself. Like, how do you know when a purpose isn't working? And that was something that we were asked to help Centrica figure out because they had a. A purpose statement and their leadership team. So the top 100 people in the business just felt it wasn't. It wasn't the right.
- [41:38]
James Reed
May I ask what it was? Can you remember what it was?
- [41:40]
Becky Willen
It was. I can remember. It was helping you live simply, sustainably, affordably.
- [41:48]
James Reed
Centrica.
- [41:49]
Becky Willen
Centrica, right.
- [41:51]
James Reed
And they sell gas and stuff, which has gone up in price.
- [41:55]
Becky Willen
They do. And this was a couple of years ago.
- [41:56]
James Reed
Right. Okay, I can see that was challenging.
- [41:59]
Becky Willen
And. And also it didn't. There were parts of the business that it didn't connect, like the energy trading division, for example. And I guess our point of view coming into this was that the purpose might not be completely wrong. It might just be that people don't understand it or they don't know how to use it. As it turned out, we felt that there was a kind of more relevant, powerful, inspiring articulation of their purpose that we helped them develop, which was energizing A greener, fairer future. So a much sort of bigger idea that could really help.
- [42:36]
James Reed
I can remember that. Yeah, I can remember it though. That's a good start.
- [42:41]
Becky Willen
But a bigger idea that would help reorientate the business around their role in driving the energy transition that we need at the moment. So I think there is a question about.
- [42:53]
James Reed
So were they pleased with that?
- [42:54]
Becky Willen
They were very pleased with that.
- [42:55]
James Reed
I like energizing a greener, fairer Fuji.
- [42:57]
Becky Willen
Yeah, yeah. And it's really, it's driving a lot of change in the business and change, cultural change as well as, you know, strategic stuff that I think will help them. Yeah. Over, over the long term. But I think what's key for that to. For an idea like that to land not just be launched but actually.
- [43:23]
James Reed
Yeah, that's what I'm interested in. How do you land it is I.
- [43:26]
Becky Willen
Think making sure that there is that connection that there's something that happens that actually improves the experience of the average employee within that organization. So going back to the John Lewis partnership, you know that idea of introducing equal parental leave at Centrica, they've really looked at the sort of skills program and it's a big complicated organization. They've looked at a number of different things from skills to volunteering that really help translate that big idea into something that is actually beneficial for a gas engine.
- [44:03]
James Reed
So you need actions as well as words.
- [44:05]
Becky Willen
It's essential. Yeah. Yeah.
- [44:07]
James Reed
And I guess the words just float off.
- [44:09]
Becky Willen
Yeah.
- [44:09]
James Reed
People forget it.
- [44:10]
Becky Willen
They do. Or they worse they might remember it and just feel completely cynical about it.
- [44:15]
James Reed
Because that would be worse.
- [44:17]
Becky Willen
Yeah.
- [44:18]
James Reed
And I can see that happening.
- [44:19]
Becky Willen
Yeah. And I would say that actually if you're going to go to the effort of thinking about what words might describe your purpose, then you also really need to think about what actions bring it to life from day one. I think that's an essential part of the mix because otherwise it is just a set of words that. Yeah.
- [44:43]
James Reed
I feel that's a very important piece of advice here because we've been talking a lot about purpose and the statements for the actions that go with it and every bit as important, I think.
- [44:53]
Becky Willen
They might be more important.
- [44:54]
James Reed
More important to bring it to life.
- [44:56]
Becky Willen
Yeah.
- [44:57]
James Reed
Yeah.
- [44:57]
Becky Willen
Yes.
- [44:58]
James Reed
So what have you seen go wrong? I mean this is. Obviously it's doesn't always work and you know, people are accused of corporate wokery and greenwashing and all these other things. What are some of the pitfalls that people need to be careful?
- [45:14]
Becky Willen
I think making sure that there is real alignment at the leadership level about what A good purpose is and what it's going to be used for before you even start the work is really important. This can't be a marketing exercise or a sort of PR exercise. So really making sure that everyone on the leadership team is signed up that this is something that is going to be lived, that it is going to change things is really, really important. And I think if that doesn't happen, then I think either you won't ever get to a purpose that feels credible or worse, you sort of launch it into the business and then you don't do anything with it. So I think that sense of leadership ownership is really, really important. Um, I think it's essential that you do the work to help people understand what purpose driven decision making looks like so that purpose, the purpose doesn't get misused as a sort of excuse for certain, I don't know, pet projects or political things. And I think that's where that governance.
- [46:36]
James Reed
Piece that gets hijacked in some cases.
- [46:38]
Becky Willen
I think it can do. Yeah, yeah. I think it's important as well that it's not just seen as the CEO's thing. That work is done to really embed it into the organization. And I think it's key to see it as a journey of continuous improvement. If you think that just putting the purpose out there is job done, then you will never get the benefits of being a purpose driven organization.
- [47:09]
James Reed
And you said it was a starting gun.
- [47:11]
Becky Willen
Starting gun. I think the role of, if you are lucky enough to have a board or sort of non exec advisors, I think they can play a really important role in this because, you know, they should be thinking long term for the business. I love the idea of boards or even management teams doing a purpose stock take every year. You know, creating a space for reflection and learning. On the previous year, did we really do stuff that lived up to our purpose?
- [47:40]
James Reed
I like that. So that's a sort of review.
- [47:42]
Becky Willen
Yes, I'm full of that. You know, if we looked at our P and L this year, how much of it could we really say was driven by our purpose? Like if we asked our stakeholders, would they really, would they really recognize our purpose as being more than words on the page? Is there anything we said no to because of our purpose in doing that? Cause I think it's, you know, I think doing that once a year allows a bit more space for reflection and learning. And to hold your hands up and say, do you know what, we wouldn't do that again, that's always useful.
- [48:16]
James Reed
Reflection and learning is always useful. That's why we're talking to each other. So is IKEA a client of yours, I have to ask.
- [48:22]
Becky Willen
Yes, they are.
- [48:23]
James Reed
It has been. I love this IKEA effect. So can you tell me what their purpose is? Is that possible?
- [48:28]
Becky Willen
Yes, yes. So we can't. I mean, Ikea is one of those businesses that have articulated their purpose at some point in the 70s, I think. So their purpose is something like helping the many people living to live a better life at home. Now, what's interesting about that is that it's, you know, the many people is really that sense of democratization. You know, they play a key role in, you know, the homes that we have. We might even be sitting on ikea, quite possibly.
- [48:59]
James Reed
Well, they're also a philanthropy company.
- [49:01]
Becky Willen
They have a big charity, they have a big foundation.
- [49:03]
James Reed
Very interesting to me.
- [49:04]
Becky Willen
Yeah. And I think what the work that we do with IKEA is actually really helping to help them understand what a better life at home looks like and how that's changing and therefore what role they can play in people's lives. So, you know, and that's about the products and services they sell. It's about the sort of the. The advice that they give us, but it's also about the advocacy, the stuff that they stand for, making the assembly easier. Quite impossible, but they're doing. But I think they're brilliant because, you know, they are constantly pushing themselves to profitably solve problems of people on the planet. And, you know, even just very recently have launched a, you know, a resale platform that means that you can pass on furniture that you don't need.
- [49:59]
James Reed
Such a good idea. And such a good idea.
- [50:01]
Becky Willen
Yeah.
- [50:02]
James Reed
And that's really consistent with what you're talking about.
- [50:04]
Becky Willen
Exactly. Yeah.
- [50:08]
James Reed
What gets you up on a Monday mornings?
- [50:11]
Becky Willen
This sounds super cheesy, I think, but I think working in the space that I do, I think it would be remiss not to have a sense of my own personal purpose. And for me, that's all about using the creativity and influence that I have to get powerful people to do things better. And so the idea that I've got an opportunity to influence a leadership team, a CEO, it keeps me on my toes, but I find it incredibly motivating. So getting, yeah. Powerful people to make their businesses better because we need more good businesses, that is the thing that gets me out. So I'm not ashamed to say it.
- [51:02]
James Reed
That's very good. I'm pleased to hear it. Entirely consistent with your message. And then the second question is a question from my interview book, why you 101 interview questions you'll never fear again. It's one of the classic fateful 15. It's where do you see yourself in five years time?
- [51:20]
Becky Willen
Well, that's a really interesting question for me right now because given the business that I founded nearly 15 years ago and became part of a bigger professional services firm earlier this year. So we've gone from being about 50 people to 1500 people in 20 markets around the world. So I really hope that in five years time I've got a really big job at Anthesis, having sort of successfully integrated given into that business. Love to be doing more work internationally. I'd love to continue spreading the word I guess around purpose. You know, maybe there's a book in there myself but yeah, definitely still doing this and hopefully on a, you know, with more clients and more faces around the world.
- [52:14]
James Reed
Very good. We'll invite you back. Hopefully I'll be around as well. Here the next chapter. Thank you very much. Thanks so much for coming in today.
- [52:22]
Becky Willen
Thanks James.
- [52:23]
James Reed
Thanks Becky. Thank you to Becky for joining me on All About Business. To find out more about implementing purpose within your business or about Becky herself, visit givenagency.com or check out her podcast Purposing. I'm your host James Reid, Chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reid's purpose and mission, you can find our page on Sustainability on our website. All links are in the show notes. See you next time.