← James Reed: all about business
James Reed: all about business
60. Gold medal to boardroom: The one olympic method I applied that turned my workforce elite | Adrian Moorhouse MBE
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. From the pool to the boardroom, the Olympic mindset behind winning in business. Today on All About Business, I'm joined by Adrian Morehouse MBE, three time Olympian, former managing director of Lane 4 and a leader in the world of high performance culture. We'll explore how Adrian turned elite sporting principles into a successful business career, what it takes to build great teams and how mindset drives growth. Well, today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to welcome Adrian Morehouse to the studio. Adrian is an entrepreneur and an elite athlete. And I think you're the first person in our studio, Adrian, who can justifiably claim both those things. Adrian represented Great Britain in three Olympic Games as a swimmer. In 1984 in Los Angeles, in 1988 in Seoul, Korea. And. And in 1992 in Barcelona in Spain. And Adrian, you won a gold medal. I'm still cheering. I remember. In the 100 meter breaststroke, the 1988 Seoul Olympics and you set a world record for breaststroke 100 meters in the 1989 European Swimming Championships. Since then, I mean, after it says here, retiring, but retiring for a sporty career at 28, he went on and co founded a company that I know well called Lane 4. He did that in 1995. It became a highly respected leadership coaching and performance consultancy that you later sold to Ernst and young in 2021. So two amazing careers. And I want to sort of have a chance to talk to you a bit about both and then we'll conclude with what you're up to right now.
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B
Fantastic.
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A
Yeah. So thanks for coming in. So let's start. You know, how did you become a swimmer? How did that happen? And where did you grow up? Why did you become a swimmer?
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B
And obviously a very good one, but no longer an elite athlete. She's quite. You've got an ex elite athlete in the room.
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A
I think once you're an elite athlete, you're always an elite.
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B
I'm not sure. It all fades a bit, doesn't it, anyway. But yeah, no, you're right. So I grew up in Bradford in West Yorkshire. Parents and one brother, younger brother. And I swam because as a parent myself. Now getting your kids to Swim to save their lives when they, if. When they fall in lots of canals, lots of rivers around Bradford area. And it was basically learned to swim. We both went to learn to swim, me and my brother, and then once we could stay afloat and not drown, the swimming teacher ran a swimming club as well. And she said, look, if you fancy racing or you learning butterfly and things like that, then come along to the club. So that difference between if you like, learning to swim for save your life and then moving into a club was a natural one because it was the same lady that did both. So I said by the age of nine, I was racing one length backstroke.
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A
Right, okay.
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B
In the Adeline Wharfedale Championship.
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A
So it saved your life in more ways than one.
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B
Well, starting life, yeah, it was, it was. But interesting because my father was. He was a sort of a sports person, but amateur soccer and cricket, so sort of those traditional men's sports, if you like, but. So swimming was about an anathema to him. So when I started to say, I don't want to do the cricket thing, I don't want to do the rugby thing, I don't want to do football if I'm not that bothered about all those things, I just want to get in the pool, he went, oh, that's fair enough. It's leashes of sport. So he's quite happy about that.
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A
Right. So you, you told me, and I think you've been open about this, that you, you went to the pool in part to get away from folk.
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B
Yeah, yeah. So fast forward a little bit. So I was secondary school, didn't have such a great time, 12, 13, you know, so a bit of bullying. And so for me to escape into swimming pool was quite a good thing, you know, to get, get away from everybody, get my head down for a couple of hours. And also the other thing was as an independent school where, you know, there were rugby teams, cricket teams, and being selected felt quite subjective, you know, the teacher.
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A
Right.
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B
I mean, I probably wasn't very good.
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A
Do they have those lineups?
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B
Indeed. And I'm the last person standing and you're not in anything. So see you later for confidence. Exactly. And I'm. So it's okay. Well, I'd rather be in a clean swimming pool anyway. So rather than getting beat up on a dirty rugby pitch. So that's kind of my background. So I, I sort of escaped and I was more in control of my own destiny. So I felt like being selected for something was very. Yeah, as I say, subjective. Whereas the. If I went in the swimming pool and won the race. It got to pick me.
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A
It's a bit like being an entrepreneur, interestingly. You sort of master of your own destiny if you do well.
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B
Yeah, I think it's interesting because I think that there is a point where you have to. And I've said this before to people where you have to flip from trying to do it all yourself. So I knew at 13, 14, and that whole drive was coming from a very personal desire, and I wanted to do it for myself and prove to myself or other people. And I think sometimes in entrepreneurship that's the same sort of thing. You've got this drive, but it's not until you realize you've got to and you need other people to work with you and be part of that journey that you actually are the most successful. So I did okay until I was about 20. It wasn't until I realized I needed to have the support of other specialists and other people.
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A
As a swimmer.
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B
As a swimmer, yeah. And then that transferred into business for me. So.
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A
So you say you did okay until you're about 20. What happened then? You got a team around you or.
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B
Yeah, no. So at the age of 20, I made my first Olympics. I mean, there's lots of fast forwarding here. So I went from the county champion through to.
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A
Went from learning to survive. You fell in the canal to your first Olympics like that.
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B
So lots of hard work. And I was training in Leeds at that point, which is an Olympic club. And. And I think that I got to that point by my own grit, determination, hard work. And I had. Obviously had talent, But I came fourth in those Olympics and I was only.
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A
19 in Los Angeles.
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B
Los Angeles, Yeah.
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A
And when you're understating it, perhaps, I mean, you have to get up really early and tr. Hard and I mean, it's an incredibly focused, tough thing to do.
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B
Yeah, yeah. Swimming is a commitment and I, Yeah, I notice a lot less of sports now. I mean, you see some of the sports and the effort you put in. But I was up about, you know, five o' clock in the morning. Most mornings every week before school, dad would drive into the pool.
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A
I mean, not many teenagers are doing that.
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B
No, they're not. And I think it's about. But again, it's something that burns inside you. So I think I've talked to. You've talked to lots of people, I guess in situations of entrepreneurship or drive or achievement, where there's something burning inside you that you've. Doesn't go out, you know, and you say you're prepared to put the work in. So that whole idea of people you say, oh, you used to make, you must have made lots of sacrifices. But they're never sacrifices at all, they're all choices. I knew what I was choosing to do, so I was choosing not to go to that party with those friends because I was going to swim because I wanted to win the Olympics at the age of 15, I was going, okay, that's where I'm off.
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A
So that's the thing that's burning inside. Where does that come from? What is that?
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B
Oh, I don't know, it's quite, it's. I, it's interesting. My brother has the same sort of thing because I know he's done quite well in business as well, so. And my father was a role model to us. So he Left school at 14, we were always alive at that point, but worked his way through like in Bradford as a wool merchant and made his way and made it to a company director. And we saw him working hard and getting things, you know, achieving stuff. And so there was almost like this, this link between you work hard and you get, you get on. So that sort of drive was there, but then I think my self esteem was a bit lower when I was in my teens and so finding something to feel good about.
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A
Right.
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B
Mattered to me and so I think that that drive, I was not a happy child and so I think that finding something to make me a little bit happier was important. So. But then I've realized that achievement alone doesn't make you happy. So it's taken me a while and I got that by the end of my swimming career.
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A
But it's a good distraction in the, it was a distraction all the sort of the quest for achievement. So you did really well in Los Angeles. You came fourth. Not well enough, obviously. I can see your expression that's no good at all.
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B
No medals.
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A
No medal quite okay. You did really well. But then you needed to do better, obviously there's fire inside you. So you, what do you do then? Recruit a team around you?
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B
The team came almost like my coach, My swimming coach was very open minded, very curious and as a value, it's one of my strongest personal values. And I think I've learned that by being around people who have genuinely been interested in other people and what is, what's a different way or a better way? So he was of that ilk. And after the 20, 1984 Olympics it was a case of, look, we need to look at nutrition, psychology, physiology, biomechanics. And this was very early days of that stuff. I mean, now there's a preponderance of specialists that can support athletes, but in those days we had to go find them, you know, went to have to go to Leeds University, find a nutritionist or. And working with somebody who could give. Bring different types of tools to the party other than the swimming ones. It's okay, you can swim up and down, he can teach me how to do technique, but also. And I can work hard. But ultimately there's a far more greater number of inputs that are required to be faster.
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A
So you mentioned nutrition and psychology were the main ones.
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B
And then biomechanics.
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A
Biomechanics, yeah.
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B
And then strength and conditioning. So because, you know, in the old, in hill days, used to get some weights and try and get as strong as possible, lift as much as you can. But actually that's not very good if you want to swim them, if you're swimming for two minutes in the water, because whatever strength you've put on, you have to carry through the water.
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A
Right.
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B
And. But if it's not useful, it's wasted. So you've basically.
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A
So you just want the muscles you need.
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B
Yeah, and that's power, that's applied strength. And so really understanding the difference between just being strong and actually applying that strength over two minutes is a very different activity. And somebody needs to help you work that out. And then how you then train for. And then interestingly, the dynamic between nutrition and physiology and strength and swimming, because you need to eat a certain way and then if you're going to do that particular session in swimming pool, how.
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A
Did they change your diet?
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B
I remember a moment when my the nutritionist came from to my mum, to my heart. The house where my mom, a proud Yorkshire woman who was feeding her boys very well, and this nutritionist said, well, maybe you want to give them more pasta and more carbohydrates. So because we were training so hard, I was burning off 8,9000 calories a day. So they're going, look, that's a lot of pasta. Well, it's a lot of cakes. And she said, no, not the cake, not the cakes with the pasta. So, yeah, so a bit of a shift to understanding and protein. And so really just we were educating and as I say, my mum was a bit resistant at first, but then got with the program sort of thing and she's great and so we worked on that. So that's becomes a part of your life.
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A
What if doing good was the smartest business move you'll ever make? I'm James Reid, CEO of Reid. In my new book, Karma Capitalism, I reveal how being a Philco, that's a company where at least 10% of shares are owned by a charitable foundation, has become our business. Superpower companies like Lego, Ikea and Novo Nordisk share the same Filco identity. These businesses last longer, inspire loyalty and make a bigger impact on society. This book is part manifesto, part practical guide. Karma Capitalism is available now@karmacapitalism.org being a good business is good business. So when you went to your sole career.
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B
Yes.
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A
What do you think your chances were of winning?
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B
I felt good about them. I guess.
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A
I felt like you were well prepared.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Team and by your preparation.
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B
And I'd had some good successes on the way. So I'd won the US Open was in January. I just missed a world record in April. Also in the States, I raced most of my rivals and I beat them all all the way through. So I was going into the race as world number one.
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A
Right. And so that brings its own pressures.
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B
It does. And yet I've been always very philosophical about these things. It's always good to be in the number one position because then people. Because you're in it.
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A
This is what the mind training taught you, in a sense.
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B
Absolutely. But it's good to be in the.
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A
Number one position because you're in it.
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B
Absolutely. Because why would you want to be.
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A
In any other place?
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Everybody else wants to be in there.
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A
You're in it.
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B
But you know. But you knew they were gunning for you. You definitely. You're after you. But then it was a case then of delivering on your. Delivering that potential. But then Olympics is a very interesting thing because you get literally once every four years, you get a 15 minute window to do it. And if you miss that window and you don't do it, then these are the four years. So that's the pressure that comes with. It's okay knowing you're the best in the world, but you have to deliver it at that time on that day in that swimming pool.
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A
So the preparation to get you there has to be very precise indeed.
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Yeah. And they do. You call it a taper. So you basically the workload tapers down. So you're trying to rest as much as you can but maintain that fitness and strength that you've got from all that hard training. So you. It's called super adaptation, if you're interested.
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A
Super adaptation. No, I am interested. That's why I'm asking this question. So. So. So you had a great triumph in soul career. Yeah.
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B
That was good.
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A
Even you must be happy with that.
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B
I was happy with that. Although I only won by 100 of a second. It was a very tight. I was very tight margin.
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A
Oh, you thought it should have been more. You're very hard on yourself. So, so then you, then you went and competed again and you didn't win again.
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B
Indeed. Yeah.
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A
Well, I mean, what was that like? I mean, I mean, I mean, I suppose we all, in our careers, you know, we peak and then we go whatever the career is. But for a young athlete, this happens pretty fast.
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B
Yeah. And I guess hindsight is a good thing when you sort of look on your full career. And so for me, all the way through to 92, so 88, I won the Olympics. I broke the world record 89. 90, 90, when I still world number one. So it's only the year before the Olympics. I started to tail off. Now I wanted a third go.
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A
I mean it's amazing to have done.
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B
It's a great show. Yeah. To go to it and have a go. And I. But I changed. I took a risk and I changed my preparation. I went to Australia and I was swimming very, very well through to May, June, and I thought this is going to work. But my prep, my final, you said that getting it right on the day, my final taper, I changed it and it kind of went wrong. And the week before I.
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A
Why did you do that?
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B
Because I wanted to blow the world record out of the water. It was my world record. I thought, well, I'm going to win.
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A
You wanted to beat yourself?
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
Okay. We're getting the impression you're a very competitive person.
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B
Go out on the back. Well, I've toned it down. I'm very different now.
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A
This is good. So you wanted to beat yourself, but you misjudged it and I misjudged in what happened.
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B
Came 8th.
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A
Came 8th.
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B
But that's a risk you take, you know.
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A
You must have felt pretty sore about that.
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B
I did, but that. But interestingly that I've always been hindsight. And also quite a few things happened to me in between 24 and 28 that caused me to be a little bit more reflective and philosophical about life and realize that swimming didn't really matter. It's one of my main rivals through my 18, 19 through to about 25 through to Seoul. Died at the age of 25.
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A
Oh, really?
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B
In a hit and run accident.
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A
And I went hit and run.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
So.
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So I call Victor Davis. And so facing into things that are bigger than going in the swimming pool and plotting them down for two lens. It started to make me realize that I was trying something. Yes. Impressive. It's hard and it's challenging, but on the grand scheme of things, does it really matter? So it gave me a sort of.
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A
You had a different perspective.
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B
I had a different perspective. And I think that I've been thinking about. I thought about that not. Not much recently, but about whether that changed my. The dynamic of me in the pool but going for the risk and, you know, because I knew what I was risking by changing my preparation. But I genuinely thought, you know, what, if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't.
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A
Well, that's very entrepreneurial as well, you know, so aiming high and trying something and it doesn't. It doesn't matter. You try again, do something else.
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B
Exactly.
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A
Yeah. Failure is a signpost, as we've been told on this podcast.
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B
But for me, yeah, absolutely. That's where I learned all my stuff when I failed.
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A
So then. So then you subsequently to your swimming career, started a business that you called Lane 4. Now, I think this has a meaning to swimmers.
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B
Yes.
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A
Why did you call it Lane four, Adrian?
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B
Well, it's just a quick segue. I had the four years after swimming, I worked for the swimming association that got anybody as a director of talent development. So I actually did four years planning the national talent strategy for swimming.
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A
Oh, so you're helping bring in.
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B
Yeah. So identifying talent, develop and think about the plans. So we weren't burning kids out. So that got me into talent development, which is why Lane 4 is a talent human resources kind of consultancy came about. So it's an easy segue when you know that middle bit.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But lane four, I started with two. Well, a sales friend, a friend of mine who was a sales director and a couple of sports psychologists. And it was one of the sports psychologists that threw that name into the hat. When we were calling out names, you know, we were right. We had some of the rubbish in it. Just sort of the general names like peak performance or you'd get go fast or whatever.
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A
And then.
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B
And then this guy said, why about we call it Lane four? We all looked at him. Well, that's a good one. Because it's. It is the lane that the fastest qualifier from all the prelims goes into. So it's the favorites lane. Ultimately, it's the. It's the one where you're more likely to win.
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A
And is that because it's. You can see what's going on either side of you?
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B
Yeah, I mean, in the. Yeah. Peripheral vision Helpful because you've got three on one side, four on the other side. And again, I love being in the middle because you're in the middle of it and you can see everybody and all but the old Victorian baths, pools, baths. From being from Bradford we had Victorian baths. The high sided, they were high sided. So the waves used to hit the.
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A
Side and bounce in the middle. A bit of pushback.
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B
Yeah. And if you were playing one and a, it was a nightmare because it was like the North Sea.
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A
Right.
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B
So in lane four is a little bit quieter.
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A
Right.
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So but that didn't matter.
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A
So you're in the thick of it. But it's a better channel.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Right, so you called it that and you began with a small group, three of us.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And how, how did you start, how did you get business? How did it begin?
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B
I think first of all we people believed in us. It's really interesting finding one or two people. So the sports psychologists were already working in the corporate worlds. They were moonlighting from Loughborough University, which.
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A
Is famous for sports.
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B
Yeah, Loughborough University, great sport. And the head of department Graham, who started lane four with me, had been phoned up by 3m in in Loughborough, who had a division there. And the head called David Cook actually was thinking laterally. He's thinking, look, I've got some high performers in business. I've got some eight vice presidents running quite significant bits of the business. I think they're like elite athletes, they're high performers. I want to find out how they could be better at what they do. And so he rang the sports psychology department. Loughbourne said, I want the sports psychologist to come and talk to my vice presidents. And so Graham went to talk to them and did. Started to talk to him as if they were elite athletes with goals and pressures and trying to work in a team effectively and bringing to bear some of those techniques and tools that he taught people like me. And their performance improved significantly. I mean hugely improved.
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A
And so there's a lot I want to unpack here.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
So it's very interesting you brought psychologists. Well, from a university. Yes, Technology, business and, and sports together. So it's an interesting, really interesting few.
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B
Well, you have three. I'm a very innovative organization. Anyways, they were looking for a differentiator, looking for something a little bit different. So not. They didn't want something like me. And David told me this, he said I don't want somebody like you. The rent a hero come in to tell my guys your story and go rah rah, come on you can do it. He said, I want to know what these guys taught you because I want them to teach my guys the same thing.
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A
Right, so what were the key things that you took to this team at 3M?
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B
A lot of stuff around. A lot of things around resilience. So you know the stuff that you can learn. So I definitely, between my Olympic Games, 84, 88, I learned how to handle pressure. I learned how to focus better, I learned to be more resilient. I learned to myself my self belief, self esteem and self confidence fit together because there's a different. They're different. And so some of the stuff around my individual performance, but also how to work in a team. So team dynamics, how do you get the best out of people where their skill set lies and how do you have empathy and give and take within a team and create flow? So that sort of, if you like individual and team dynamic stuff. And David was quite clear with me. He said, look, for the price, I could get you for an hour at lunchtime to talk to my guys and get these guys for a whole year. Right. Because the price point was very different.
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A
On the speakers circuit.
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B
Well, I've done a few speakings, as always, I was doing the talent jobs. My main job was head of talent development. But I get, I asked every now and again to do the speech. And he said, look, that's going to do so much, it's going to inspire. But actually I want these guys, I want my people to change for the better and learn some new things. And their KPIs, their performance went sky high. And he said, that's a great. You should get these guys into business. He told me, he said, you should start a business with these two.
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A
Well, I'm thinking, listening to you and I'm sure other people listening, thinking this too is, well, I'd like to be more resilient. I'd like to be more focused. Give us some tips. How do you do this or does it take a year? What's the curriculum here? How do you become more resilient? Because clearly it's very important, as is focus.
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B
Well, if.
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A
And you said getting into a flow state.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
Particularly focus.
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B
Yeah, Well, I mean focus and interesting because there's practicing techniques which are looking at the internal narrative and the external. So what's externally going on around you that might distract you or cause you to pay a different attention and what's internally. So what have you got in control of you around your thought process and patterns? So what you might listen for, you might See, we might be drawn to. It's a combination of the internal, external. So there's definitely work you can do on noticing what's shaping you and changing your point of view and the external. But then how you're reacting it internally.
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A
Just being aware of that.
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B
I suppose there's an awareness piece. Yeah, awareness. And then. And then doing something about it. But the pressure, handling pressure is a big one because you know there's a source of pressure on everybody. Identifying what that source is, but then understanding how it affects you and then having techniques to cope with the effects. So you're. You sit in an Olympic final room. You sit before half an hour before an Olympic final. You've got seven people with you.
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A
Well, you're there in your speed at.
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B
That point, and they want to beat you and you want to beat them. And you've got. You've got to wait half an hour and there's 18, 000 people.
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A
You're all in the same room together.
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B
In the same room. Some couple did. Some people have put headphones on. People walked around and just got very agitated. And really. So you're there. He's about then you're into meditation. Then you're in meditative practice. You're into breathing.
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A
So what did you do in the room?
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B
Quiet. Quiet.
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A
With my meditation.
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B
Meditation, yeah.
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A
And what was playing in your headphones?
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B
My headphones. Just like classical music actually at the time.
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A
Right.
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B
Because I quite like.
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A
So you just sit there and listen to music.
- [22:56]
B
Yeah. And then replay. And then the other thing is not to. Is this thing about minimizing what's about to happen. So I could sit there and go, it's the Olympic Games. I've got to win the Olympics. It's a gold medalist. You know what I was thinking was, actually, none of that is currently in my control. So I'm not in the pool yet. So what's in my control. Next thing in my control is to walk out and get a good dive. So my tape in my head was talking, thinking about the technique and the practice of getting in the water. Then everything will flow from there rather than thinking it's the Olympics. But then.
- [23:29]
A
And also you were sitting in the room visualizing your dive into the pool.
- [23:32]
B
And then the other thing was when I started to think about is the Olympics a big, big deal? Everybody in the world, it's like, no, there's only seven people to beat now. Right. I have to beat those billions people. I just beat most of them. I just gotta beat seven. And I've beaten him before. And I know he's rubbish at the first bit. I can beat him.
- [23:48]
A
Yeah, that's because you were good.
- [23:50]
B
But. But then you're into self talk then, aren't you? Then you've been to. Actually, I think it's an interesting.
- [23:55]
A
So you're having a conversation with yourself.
- [23:56]
B
Yeah, it's interesting with British people without self deprecation does undermine your confidence.
- [24:01]
A
Right.
- [24:02]
B
You know. Oh, yeah, well, don't get above yourself. Well, actually, you need to walk out thinking you're the best in the world and you're about to win. You have to every day. Yeah. No, but as long as, I mean, I'm from a good family. That kept your feet on the ground. Arrogance never came into it. So there's a difference between.
- [24:19]
A
Yeah, what's that? How do you manage that?
- [24:21]
B
Just, it's not, it's an internal thing, not an external thing. You don't have to go out and say, be cocky about it and go. That's usually hiding something. I think that somebody is insecure. But if you are secure, it's inside.
- [24:31]
A
Right.
- [24:32]
B
You don't need to. And so you're not perceived to be arrogant because you kind of just believe.
- [24:35]
A
You'Re going to win or you're setting out to win.
- [24:39]
B
Yeah. And then, and then if it, if I fail, it's okay because I failed last time and I lived and I got over it. So my life will carry on.
- [24:49]
A
Yes. I mean, so when you. I mean you didn't win every race. Clearly. So. So when you didn't win, was that your, your take on it? Just. That's just how it is today.
- [24:57]
B
You'd analyze what, what went well and what didn't go well. It's a lot of reviewing.
- [25:02]
A
Was that always in your control?
- [25:03]
B
I mean, which bits were which bits?
- [25:05]
A
Yeah, because sometimes he's just a better swimmer maybe.
- [25:07]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, yeah. I mean, but there's something about reviewing the process. I'm a big, I'm a big believer in all the inputs. It's the input that creates the output.
- [25:18]
A
Yeah.
- [25:18]
B
So, you know, so what, what was, what was I doing in the preparation room before? What was I doing on my diet? What was I doing with my nutrition? What was I doing? All those things are in my control rate myself. Sure. The result, that guy might have beat me on the day, but don't get hung up on that. Look at all the process where you can improve the process.
- [25:34]
A
So you took these ideas or these thoughts into the world of business.
- [25:39]
B
Yes.
- [25:40]
A
Did you have to change it much? I mean, so how did you approach it?
- [25:45]
B
Yeah, the two things about business for me were the product and the offer and the way I would lead the business. So the product on the offer was the psychology of performance, and that was individual, team, organizational. Get those guys to create dynamic consulting package or development packages that would work for the buyer, the client. But for me, as a leader, thinking about how Lane 4 was created, I thought to myself, okay, if I'm the swimmer here, I'm a managing director. I don't know everything about everything. So as I did with swimming with my nutritionist, psychologist, physiologist, I go, okay, legal, it, hr, strategy, finance, get the best people. And then. So then you find, oh, that's my board. So I've got a board of experts who are very, very good at what they do. My job is not to do their job for them, it's to release their talent in a team. And so that really, absolutely came from swimming.
- [26:40]
A
So when I have a really good team around you.
- [26:42]
B
Absolutely. Who are better than you, that was the first thing. Yeah. Nutritionist was miles better at nutrition than me. The psychologist is better at psychology than me. But the contribution to the whole. And that's exactly the same in business, make everybody, have everybody feel that their contribution is critical, is valid, and it is. And then. So the entrepreneur thing is quite interesting. I've seen a lot of entrepreneurs try and do it all themselves. And I that journey in swimming, from being a kid through to the Olympic athlete that knew how to really work with a team of people and give up stuff and listen and be curious and apply and try and learn from the application. So that running the business was one thing. And then because these psychologists were very, very good, letting them loose on creating great product that fit the marketplace.
- [27:27]
A
So. So what would be examples of the product that you would be selling at that time?
- [27:30]
B
So early days and they say, why did everybody give us a go? They were curious about this. Obviously it's okay. But once they got over the fact it wasn't me trying to give them a talk, but actually I wanted these psychologists to work with them. And once they experienced it, then the word of mouth became very strong. We didn't mark it for five years. I wanted to make sure we had some strong case studies where the client said, this is really working for us.
- [27:54]
A
What would be the problem that you would be called in to help solve?
- [27:58]
B
So it could be a high performance, it could be a team, it could be the top team, an executive team, or it could be team development.
- [28:02]
A
So how quite senior people.
- [28:04]
B
Yeah, we got senior people quite early on. Although you get mid managers or groups of people, how do they team well? How do people actually work well in a team? That's the individual dynamic and the team dynamic. I mean, latterly, what sort of intervention.
- [28:17]
A
Would you have delivered for that?
- [28:20]
B
I think the skill set, a lot of the skill set was on facilitating conversations and bringing skills into the room. So new skills to learn. So different people doing things differently. Here's a way, a methodology of doing something. Try this. I'll give you an example. We work with some call center managers with BT actually, and one of their big metrics around handling call calls. Right. First time in call center. And this because we always ask the client what the metric is because I want to win a race in summertime. What's the metric? What are you trying to achieve? So we want to handle these calls better, handle them at 70%. Right. First time. So what's going to be a good number? Well, 80% would be a good number. So you work with the call center managers to talk about handling pressure, setting effective goals. How are they goal setting, how are they causing pressure within the team, how are they responding? And give them some technique, some tools. Here's a framework that I could have learned around goal setting. Give them a. Facilitate a conversation between them and say, how would you apply this to your call center and how might it affect your call center operatives to achieve a better number? We did that for about a month and their numbers went from 72% to 91% in a month. Right. First time. So their behavior changed because the skills they were learning and using and they were applied, but nothing to do with sport. Yeah, the sport was a nice hook because you can.
- [29:39]
A
That's what I'm wondering. It doesn't sound like it, but it's.
- [29:41]
B
A hook because you. I remember. Well, it is. But then I'll give you an example. The call center one. It's quite interesting because they were. BT had Chris Hoy as an ambassador.
- [29:50]
A
Right.
- [29:50]
B
So what we said was, so can we use Chris? So he came on and talked for 10 minutes about handling pressure as a cyclist. Then the sports psychology said, here's a technique Chris has learned. Here's what he did. And then one of us would facilitate a conversation with the call center guy, said, can you see how you would use that in your call center?
- [30:08]
A
Right.
- [30:09]
B
So inspiration. The tool, the application.
- [30:12]
A
Right.
- [30:12]
B
And so then, so you, you hooking.
- [30:14]
A
Them with this and you remember what that tool was.
- [30:16]
B
That particular one was goal setting. That particular one was around. Everyone was Focusing on the performance number business is very, they go, go, we all go on about the number we've got to do 50 million got to do this number. But actually it's the outcome and the process that matter. So why are you doing that number? What's that going to give you? Why would somebody, an 18 year old, not 21 year old in the call center care about that number? Give them more meaning in the number and then the process, what's their role? Why is their role important to achieve that particular outcome? So getting to reframe the way they were talking about goals rather than his number, his number.
- [30:49]
A
So the goal would be theirs.
- [30:51]
B
It's owned by the individual. You see how they fit into it and why it matters. And so very often people are very lazy in business with goals.
- [30:58]
A
Yeah. So that's interesting. Yeah there's a headline number and people don't really know what's my part in.
- [31:03]
B
This, what's my part and also what's it going to do for us. That's why lots of people now different generations are asking for more meaningful work. What's the meaning? What's the point in doing this? You're okay, we might do 50 million, but so what?
- [31:14]
A
Yeah, what's our purpose? Why are we doing this? What's the point of business? Well that's a very good question. So you grew this consultancy successfully over a 25 year period?
- [31:24]
B
We did. And as you have experienced the world of work in the last 25 years, there's been ups and downs. 2008, 2009 was a big number of them. Well, 2008 was a big one. Yeah.
- [31:34]
A
So what happened to you then was that. So we'd already an existential danger to you?
- [31:38]
B
Yeah, it was, we, we stretched quite a bit. So we had a couple of global, well quite a few global clients and we had, we were working in 20 different countries, 20 different languages. We opened an office in New Jersey, we had clients in Manhattan and New Jersey and we put eight people in there and we had office in Melbourne serving Australasia and Singapore and KL and we stretched on two continents. All the consultancy we had was going do one at a time but we went to because the client wanted to do both.
- [32:04]
A
But you had a particular client.
- [32:05]
B
Yeah, and we took us got very global and then in the end it was 2008 so the costs over outweighed the revenue and then you had to.
- [32:13]
A
Close those off because both offices.
- [32:14]
B
Yeah, but that's the benefit I think of being small entrepreneurial is we could make those decisions Together and we made them very quickly because it was. UK business was fine actually in the 2008 period. Yeah, just about. But they were. We knew that they would hemorrhage money if we just kept the two offices open. So we closed them. So that was an interesting time. Making our first redundancies and letting people go difficult, but very difficult because we, despite everything I was saying about the goal thing, it's a very heart based business because if you work in human, you know, human capital, you're working with people. Everything we do is to engage and enable people who are working at work. I want people to have a better day at work. That's why I do what I do.
- [32:57]
A
That's good to hear. Yeah, so do we. I mean that's what we do. What we're doing. Actually improving lives through work is our purpose. So how big did the company become?
- [33:07]
B
We got about 25 million, about 250 people full time and about 300 associates around UK and the world. And we. Yeah, so it was. And it was pre. Covid was going okay and then. But a lot of our work was face to face. And Covid we went yeah.
- [33:22]
A
And then you made the decision to exit.
- [33:24]
B
Yeah. So we.
- [33:25]
A
How did that come about? What was the.
- [33:27]
B
We were partnering. We. One of our big strategies was to create partnerships with some of the big four or consultancies that could take us into larger programs. Because at that point we were doing a lot of transformation and change, change work. So how do you, how do you help an organization go through a big transformation project? How do you take the leaders and the organization through it at a human level? So how do you want to change a system or you might want to change a particular strategy but how does the 30,000 people you employ do that and want to do that? So we were doing a lot of consulting work in that space and we realized that piggybacking one of the big four would help us get into largest the clients we could work with. And we started working with. We were working with KPMG at one point for strategically and then we got a big piece of work with civil service and then we started working with EY on a piece with the Met Police in London when Cressida Dick was a commissioner leading for London. So an EY with a prime because those.
- [34:22]
A
What sort of work you were doing for them, the police.
- [34:24]
B
Yeah, it was leadership and it was all about. It's everything that we're seeing of the boil being lanced now. Right. So it's everything we're seeing which is addressing. I mean Chris did it as a commissioner. I, I thought was awesome and just wanting to change the culture, the dynamic of everything that had been reported on and still has been reported on, but to try and help all those leaders do it better.
- [34:47]
A
So you were supporting them.
- [34:49]
B
Yeah. And helping them with conversations and training, developing and but so we ey were prime and had had the main contract but we were the specialists that did the leadership work all the way from desk sergeant to commissioner and it was very rewarding, very challenging work. And it was during that time that ey said look, we've got a partnership, you working pretty much underneath our model. Do you want to join? Right, that's pre Covid. And we went no.
- [35:20]
A
No, that changed. Then after Covid your negotiating position was somewhat weak.
- [35:26]
B
Retired.
- [35:28]
A
Right.
- [35:28]
B
We have some friends to climb the mountain with and so we joined.
- [35:31]
A
Yeah, yeah. So well that, that was an incredible journey.
- [35:35]
B
And.
- [35:36]
A
And since then, now you're sort of gone portfolio and sort of. For full disclosure, I should mention that you, I'm very pleased to say this, joined Reid as a non executive director.
- [35:45]
B
Yes.
- [35:46]
A
Earlier this year, which we're delighted by. But you've got a sort of more portfolio career and you do a lot of mentoring with entrepreneurs.
- [35:55]
B
Yeah, that's right.
- [35:55]
A
I'm really interested in that.
- [35:57]
B
Yeah. So yeah. And I'm very proud to be part of the Reed family as well, Jim. So thank you for inviting me doing that. And so I'm working with a small learning development company called Fieri. So I'm helping them with their strategy, helping them grow and that's sort of in the tent if you like. But then I've got two or three other leaders, organizations, smaller organizations who are wanting to shape their business and grow and achieve and so helping them, having regular conversations, catch ups, listening to their strategy, their choices, but trying to be that the best of mentors, which is not to know it all, but somebody who actually asks questions and is curious and tries to hear what they actually want to find out about rather than me spray painting with my wisdom. So you've got three, I've got about four. And then every now and again.
- [36:42]
A
How often do you talk to them?
- [36:45]
B
It depends on the phase. Sometimes it's once every six weeks, sometimes it's every day. Every day it depends whether it's. Depends what's going on. I don't do. I don't charge for it.
- [36:57]
A
You don't charge for it.
- [36:58]
B
So it's right. There are people who I want to succeed because I. Yeah, I'm in that altruistic phase, they're still getting good value.
- [37:04]
A
From you, whether you charge for it or not.
- [37:05]
B
Hopefully. I don't know if it's good.
- [37:07]
A
Yeah. What are you doing every day or something?
- [37:09]
B
Sometimes it's just a call. Yeah.
- [37:11]
A
So. So what does it take to be a good mentor, do you think? What's the.
- [37:14]
B
So I think I was touching on it a little bit there. So for me, mentoring and coaching a little bit different. So if you're a mentor, you've trod the path before, possibly, and you've got things to offer, but the coaching style would say to the person, what do you actually want to hear? Rather than go, I've done it all before. I'll tell you what you need to hear. But actually, I think a good mentor waits and listens and is curious and really, really understands the gaps and what the person is looking for. I've been on a panel before where there's had three people with experience and people out in the audience asking questions, and you just get the feeling that it's a bit of a showcase for somebody to say how good they are and what they've achieved.
- [37:55]
A
People on the panel.
- [37:56]
B
Yeah. And for me, it's more about, look, what's behind that question? Because they'll ask a question. So what's behind the question? What is it you're really asking and what you. What are you concerned about? And then it's okay, here's. Ask more questions back and then say, okay, I've had an experience similar. Would you like me to share that experience? Yeah, that'd be great. Thank you. Or yeah, maybe not that one, but something different that gives them a chance to sort of really hone in where you. Where you're giving that particular advice. Because I think advice comes with mentoring.
- [38:24]
A
But so you. Are you referring to your business experience quite a lot here or your knowledge of psychology?
- [38:29]
B
Well, it's a bit of both, actually. It could be. It could be. It could be leadership experience. Having being in the seat as you, you know, being in the seat of a majority of a small growing business. But it might be awesome. The psychology I've learned because I was very lucky, I think, because the products of my business helped me run my business better. Using it on myself was critical because we were learning this stuff to share with our clients, but also we could use it on ourselves and that was the real benefit.
- [38:57]
A
Yes. You said earlier that you felt you're a curious person by nature. So what did you learn about leadership that you used on yourself? What were the sort of takeaways there.
- [39:09]
B
You can't force people to do stuff.
- [39:11]
A
You can't force people to do stuff.
- [39:13]
B
You can try and manipulate it with money, but extrinsic reward only takes you so far. So there is some part of that, but then the main bit is it's the, it's the heart. You've got to engage people's hearts. You've got leadership for me, is having people understand what's happening, what you, where you're trying to take the organization, but then also talk about why it matters and why might it matter to them and engage them in what's the story of the organization, then help them with the tools to be able to do something about it. And so for me, it was more about stories. It was more about painting a picture of what could be, being honest and realistic about what, what it was and what's happening. And then listening to different groups of people, you know, the board. Just because you run, you're on the board and you've got a position doesn't mean that you know everything. In fact, you probably don't. Understanding what's really happening in the organization is fundamental.
- [40:07]
A
I think that's really interesting. And think about business. I completely concur. But what I've observed, interestingly, you go to a business conference, if a politician speaking, they'll come and do their speech, then leave. They don't listen to anyone else. And I think that's interesting. I think it is a weakness in our sort of way politics works.
- [40:24]
B
Yeah.
- [40:24]
A
Because you learn so much from listening to the other people.
- [40:28]
B
No, I agree.
- [40:28]
A
There's not really, it's not really organized to do that somehow. No, especially if you're in government. And I think that leads to less effective leadership.
- [40:39]
B
No, absolutely. I, I, Yeah, you've got to be in, you've got to be in touch because you, you're, because if you're, have a strategy or have a plan, you know, it's, it's not so going to survive contact with the enemy, is it? Unless you actually understand what's happening when it's in contact.
- [40:54]
A
Yeah, that makes sense. The enemy in this case being other people.
- [40:57]
B
Yeah, whatever. Yeah.
- [40:58]
A
So you're trying to sort of influence. Yeah, yeah. So plans only take you so far is what you're saying.
- [41:04]
B
Absolutely. And, and those plans need to be tested, refined with people who are actually going to enact them.
- [41:09]
A
Yes.
- [41:09]
B
So I believe in the full transparency organization, pretty much. I've been in some organization. I'm quite surprised about how little, how much they want to keep Quiet. And so what, you can share that. That, that. That can be shared.
- [41:22]
A
Well, they don't want to tell them what, like their financial situation.
- [41:24]
B
Yeah, bits and pieces of it. There are certain parts of it because they're worried what people might think about it. It. Well, people talk about it anyway.
- [41:31]
A
It's very hard for things to be concealed now because it seems to be full transparency with the.
- [41:35]
B
Yeah.
- [41:36]
A
Internet seems to have delivered that.
- [41:38]
B
I've been treating. Teaching people like adults. Right. Treating people like you. You're not their parent. Because there's a lot of. In business, I think there's a lot of staging where you get a title and you decide you want to act like a parent and therefore all the kids are the ones running the company.
- [41:51]
A
Oh, you've observed this.
- [41:52]
B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- [41:53]
A
Parent, child, relationship.
- [41:55]
B
Totally happens. Yeah, a lot. Yeah. And so I've got. You get a title. But that's what I mean. Leadership titles mean nothing actually. What matters is the way you treat people right. And so people that hide behind the title to get something done, never going to get it done long term.
- [42:09]
A
So you can't force people to do things. And you shouldn't hide behind titles. Key lessons from Lane four. But for me I think they're good lessons. So if you really want to get people fired up behind an idea, how would you do that?
- [42:25]
B
Find out what the ideas are percolating the organization. Work out what you think because you might have a different view. You've got a helicopter view. Yeah, sure. Then that's quite interesting because you're lucky enough to be able to touch into lots of parts of your business and so you maybe have got a bigger picture. But then test it and find the inspiring parts within the organization and see what is possible and just ask somebody, is that possible? If we did that and then you can create an amalgam and then it's all about narrative. Then it's about how you engage people.
- [42:52]
A
It's how you tell the story of what you're trying to do.
- [42:55]
B
I think so. And not be the sole storyteller. Then there's something about. That's what I mean. If people within the organization care about it enough, they'll start telling their version of the story. As long as the bones are the same. You hear the phrase bones, flesh and breath with a story. Well, the bones of the story are, you know, the facts. That's the kind of the thing is that you want to be shared out, but the flesh and breath is actually down to everybody to tell the story in their own way. It comes to life when it's the story's life breathed into it.
- [43:28]
A
Yes.
- [43:29]
B
And each individual does that in their own way. If they don't care, they're not going to do it. They're just going to share the bones.
- [43:35]
A
Right. So if you're just seeing bones, there's a lack of. Lack of care.
- [43:41]
B
Yeah.
- [43:41]
A
Involved. But people aren't really. I mean storytelling is in some sense so natural. But we're not taught how to do it necessarily in school or, you know, we like reading stories, like watching stories, sharing stories.
- [43:54]
B
Yeah.
- [43:54]
A
But it could be much more helpfully taught, I think. Well, for people working, I think.
- [44:00]
B
So nothing's confidence involved, isn't it? Whether people feel confident to speak out. And I think that's the other thing that you want to try and create in the organization is that people don't feel silly saying anything. You don't make people feel stupid if you say something that's maybe off point or hasn't. Doesn't make so much sense. Just encourage them to talk.
- [44:19]
A
Yeah.
- [44:20]
B
I've observed and listened to sometimes the team meetings and you know, the boss will. The manager will run the team meeting. They talk all the time and then any questions at the end and nobody says anything and then they can't wait to.
- [44:32]
A
The boss is doing all the talking. The boss should talk last, shouldn't they?
- [44:36]
B
Or not at all.
- [44:39]
A
Reading Nelson Mandela's wonderful book Long Walks for Freedom and he talked about that.
- [44:43]
B
Yeah.
- [44:44]
A
How to get the best out of a group.
- [44:46]
B
Yeah.
- [44:46]
A
And you should go last. Or you could summarize what's been said.
- [44:49]
B
Exactly. It's your meeting. This is your. This team.
- [44:52]
A
You've assembled this group to hear what they have to say, surely. Yeah. And that's often not the case in your experience.
- [44:59]
B
It's getting better. It's getting a lot better. I think it's getting better.
- [45:02]
A
Right, so. So as well as doing your mentoring, you said you had this consultancy. It sounded like you might be doing lane four, version two. I'm Consultancy theory, was it called.
- [45:14]
B
Yeah. So I'm helping them grow that business. And I mean, I don't have the same.
- [45:22]
A
Still inside you.
- [45:23]
B
I've got probably not, not, not the competition thing. And I left. I lost that a long time ago. I do believe that. I think what I realized was I enjoy making myself in the organization better every day. And if we win pictures, we win stuff. But actually it's more about feeling that you've done a world class job. So there's something about. I really enjoy the process of Business. I like doing business and I don't necessarily win some, lose some sort of thing, but I'm also equally. I've got a role as a chairman of a local trust in Windsor Maiden where I live, the leisure focus, who run the leisure facilities in my community. And working with the chief exec there to create a better, healthy community is. Matters to me a lot actually. And we've started to look at parts of the business, parts of the organization that can earn money for the foundation for the trust. So we're creating something a little bit more entrepreneurial within the boundaries of a community for the benefit of the community, but also the benefit of the trust.
- [46:26]
A
So what sort of activities would those be?
- [46:27]
B
So. Well, they're legitimate business activities. Right. So. Well, running a swim school is one thing. Back to the old ones. TOM Dean Swim School.
- [46:37]
A
Swim, yeah.
- [46:37]
B
So swim school is a media business, a facilities business, training business. So all the bits that you would expect within a leisure organization, but for the benefit of the trust and the.
- [46:50]
A
Community that recycles money into the community.
- [46:52]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And so that, that in itself, so that's. I don't know whether I don't know when one gets to a stage in one's career or life where it's like you want to put that stuff back, you know, you really want to make a difference. All my children grew up in that community and my friends and their children and people I know and people I'm attached to.
- [47:08]
A
This sounds like a model that could be recreated up and down the country though. Yeah, well, other communities could.
- [47:14]
B
Yeah, yeah. There are a number of trusts run local leisure facilities rather than private organizations.
- [47:19]
A
You could create that business model, that business, it exists.
- [47:23]
B
But what, what I'm interested in is the dynamic interplay between for profit and not for profit.
- [47:28]
A
Right.
- [47:28]
B
And you know, because running the charitable business or the foundation and as Reed does, and also having the for profit businesses that fund some the good activities within the community.
- [47:39]
A
Right. Well, I wish you continued success. Thank you. Is there anything, I mean, I'm still sort of wondering in my mind, I don't know what the question is really the sort of overlay between sports and business.
- [47:52]
B
Right.
- [47:53]
A
You know, people talk a lot about athletes and performance and teams and then you do get speakers like yourself who have sort of, I've heard speakers from the sporting world and they're great to listen to. But I do sometimes leave thinking how's that going to help me do my job better or what am I going to do with this bit of information? I mean, I've heard a great story. I've enjoyed the hour.
- [48:13]
B
Yeah.
- [48:14]
A
But so how, how much do you think they are sort of overlapping and, and maybe what areas are they not?
- [48:22]
B
So it's really interesting because I, when I first met Graham, the professor of psychology from Loughborough University, I watched him do his thing with the 3M guys and he watched me do a talk. And at the end of my talk he said that was interesting, but so what? So he did exactly. Harsh. But it became a business part of me.
- [48:37]
A
Yeah, business point of view. I sometimes feel that.
- [48:39]
B
But it's totally right. It's totally right because there is a difference between inspiration and inspiring somebody. So I could listen to a mountaineer, I could listen to a spirit sportsman, I can listen to apparel, I can listen to an entrepreneur, I can listen to anybody. Give me an inspirational conversation. And be moved when you're inspired. I think the definition is to be moved emotionally or mentally. So it stimulates your thinking or it stimulates your emotion. Whether you do anything about it is down to you. So therefore you're attacking motivation. And so that's about small habits doing things differently every day. So if you heard something where the guy or the lady said, here's something about goals, you have to then do something different than your day to day activity with goals, otherwise it won't change. And therefore. And having a coach or somebody to work with to hold you to account, or if you're in business, that's the manager and the employee. So I think for me, what's this? Okay, going back to your question, the similarity in business and sport or music or in the military, any parallel you want to play is that we're all human beings, bottom line, we're all human beings and we're all trying to do something differently or better. So in sports, case you're trying to swim a bit, run a bit, whatever, but in business you're trying to do that piece of design better, run this program better, film better. You're still trying to do something, you're doing a job. It just happens to be in a different sphere. And so what you do is so the sport. Yeah, I don't like the just a rent a hero thing. Come and do this.
- [50:05]
A
Rent a hero?
- [50:06]
B
Yeah, I don't like that. And so for me it's more about what can you do differently and where's that technique going to come from? It could come from a business book, it could come from a sport, it could come from a university business school, it could come from.
- [50:20]
A
That's what's so interesting. About your origin story with lane four that it came from those various places.
- [50:25]
B
And it is an interesting. Because Fieri is ex military. The guys I'm working with now were ex military. And so. So what?
- [50:30]
A
How does leaders. Because I've always some probably wrongly assumed that in the military you do just sort of tell people what to do.
- [50:37]
B
Very different dogma. Very different now. Huge different in Santa. Oh yes. And Matt, the guy that runs Fieri was Paulo Sandhurst Leadership Academy there helping.
- [50:47]
A
Has the military been influenced by sport and business then?
- [50:51]
B
I think. I think if you're curious, it's a total mixed bag. If you're curious, you're interested in what an orchestra can teach you. Interested in what the military. You don't close your mind to think it may be just. They're just walk on.
- [51:02]
A
The entrepreneurs used to read Sun Tzu, the Art of War. I don't know it was a ancient Chinese text. But I remember the one phrase I remember from it. To win without fighting is best. So that's quite a useful lesson.
- [51:14]
B
No, absolutely, absolutely. No, I think, I think if you're curious, you don't. You won't have that filter on. Will this give me anything? You're going to be open minded in your listening and you're right. There might be. It's like a jigsaw and having collecting pieces for a jigsaw, isn't it?
- [51:28]
A
Yeah.
- [51:29]
B
So you might go to that thing and part of some training or listen to somebody or read a book. Might get five pieces of the jigsaw and then you might.
- [51:36]
A
So you're a bit of a Magpie.
- [51:37]
B
You pick 100 pieces somewhere over here and so.
- [51:40]
A
Yeah. So you should be looking and curious.
- [51:42]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [51:43]
A
See what you can learn from wherever.
- [51:44]
B
Yeah.
- [51:45]
A
Because there will be lessons and try.
- [51:46]
B
And apply it and then learn from applying it failures successfully.
- [51:49]
A
You've talked quite a bit about goal setting. Ask your personal question. Do you set yourself a goal every day?
- [51:54]
B
No.
- [51:55]
A
No. So it's not like. Because I was beginning to get the impression this is something I should be doing on a daily basis? No. That's reassuring.
- [52:01]
B
Yeah. No, I'm not. I'm quite laid back.
- [52:04]
A
I mean but where should we be on that? You know? So should we all have goals in life or different stages?
- [52:12]
B
You know, I think we all do have. I think we'll do. But I mean we all have goals. They either go from the grand or the small. The small goal might be I need to go to the toilet or it might be I need to eat some.
- [52:23]
A
Food because they Qualify those things.
- [52:25]
B
Well, they're all, they're all. They'll it will move you to behavior. So a goal moves you to an action. Usually that's what you need.
- [52:34]
A
Okay.
- [52:34]
B
So if the goal is.
- [52:35]
A
So we do all have goals.
- [52:36]
B
We all have goals all the time. But then they kind of get a bad rap sometimes when you go. If it's just a financial.
- [52:41]
A
So what do you think about, you know, B hags, Jim Collins, big hairy audacious goals, you know, we should have some great goal, make a billion pound business or raise 50 million or whatever for charity. Is that healthy or is it a kind of a distraction?
- [52:56]
B
I like the big carry audacious goal because I was a child of 12 that had one and did it. So I believe they're possible.
- [53:03]
A
You were one of 12? Oh yeah.
- [53:05]
B
When I watched David Wilkie in the Olympics. David Wilkie, I want to win the olympics. And at 12 that's a B big.
- [53:12]
A
So you just got that as a 12 year old. Okay, I'm good.
- [53:15]
B
I love that. I'll do that.
- [53:16]
A
So you set yourself that goal. How old were you when you won?
- [53:20]
B
24.
- [53:20]
A
So 12 years later you did it.
- [53:22]
B
Yeah. So I'm a big fan of big audacious goals because everything that is achieved in the world is done by somebody who's dreamt it.
- [53:31]
A
Right.
- [53:31]
B
Who didn't think it was possible. I remember coach told me that when I was 14, I shared this goal with him. I said, okay. He said, why you come swimming? Because I was always, you know, I was complaining, I was about lasting the pool. I said I want to win the Olympics and I never shared it with anybody. He said that's a great goal. He said, but you know it's not going to happen tomorrow.
- [53:48]
A
Right.
- [53:48]
B
It's going to take some time. He said, but what he said was the people that will win those olympics in about 10 years time are all 12, 13, 14 year old children today who are dreaming about it.
- [54:00]
A
Yeah.
- [54:00]
B
Also all the people that do it will have dreamt it in the first instance, so why not?
- [54:04]
A
Yeah.
- [54:04]
B
What a great goal.
- [54:05]
A
What an inspiring coach.
- [54:07]
B
Well, indeed, because he was, he was.
- [54:08]
A
Going to say, oh, ha ha ha, you know, you get on, you do another length.
- [54:11]
B
But going back to your question about the BHAG for me, if it is a do 50 million, 2 billion, I don't like that bit of it because I don't believe they are useful in and of themselves as goals. I think that, well, those big numbers businesses, it's more what sort of business you want to Create what sort of impact you want to have on the world. What's you or your consumer or whatever. What, what's meaningful, what's exciting. It's a heart based level because there's not many people going to be excited by 50 million.
- [54:37]
A
No, it's very few people.
- [54:39]
B
Yeah. So it's like my coach saying to me, me say I want to win the Olympics is well, you've got to swim 60 seconds and every day you got some 60 seconds.
- [54:46]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [54:47]
B
Okay, Terry, you got some 60 seconds. We're gonna enter the Olympics way. Okay, so, yeah, so yes, I, because.
- [54:54]
A
I do believe so it should speak much more to the heart in that sense.
- [54:57]
B
Yeah, but why, why would we want to do that? Why would you want.
- [55:00]
A
It's like a moonshot. Yeah, we're going to put a person on the moon.
- [55:02]
B
Exactly.
- [55:02]
A
Yeah.
- [55:03]
B
But they're all right. I mean, I think when we get a bit older we kind of, the edges get a bit smoothed off because we have some failure and we kind of don't think we should be dreaming about things. But everybody walking down the street's got some form of. I'd like to, but they probably haven't shared it.
- [55:16]
A
Yes, it was your dream. There's a good book on that subject which I read this summer. No, that's, that's brilliant. That's very helpful to have that explanation from you around goals which I, I found very useful.
- [55:29]
B
Thank you.
- [55:30]
A
Is there anything else about leadership? You know, when you look around in the world now, I mean it's quite a sort of testing. It is environment, people don't feel particularly sort of encouraged. Is there anything you think could be done differently or anyone who could step up in a different way or anything that you might, if you were a mentor, say, come on, do this or think about that? I've.
- [55:59]
B
I think if I look at leadership and right now in the world, it's pretty dispiriting when you see what's happening with some of the world's leaders and the way they're conducting themselves. And for me, I think people need to be a bit more curious and just be. Rather than following people blind and listening. You need to really understand what's going on and challenge it and be prepared to stand up. And I think, I think that action is the only way it's going to change because you know that we need different types of leaders in positions. We don't need some of the ones we've got.
- [56:33]
A
So that's a very good, that's a very good sort of challenge. To everyone listening that we should all be more curious to find out actually what's really going on. That's your sort of message.
- [56:41]
B
It is. And then. And so, yeah, because I can't believe that so many people blindly follow or listen to some of the stuff that comes out of some of the leaders mouths. No, no, I can't believe.
- [56:54]
A
Is sort of unbelievable. I agree.
- [56:56]
B
Yeah.
- [56:57]
A
So, yeah, that's a call to action, Adrian. Let's all be more curious and stand up as well. Yeah, make that, make the case. Heard what you think is right and what is actually happening.
- [57:07]
B
Yeah.
- [57:08]
A
So Adrian, I'm curious, are there any sort of common leadership challenges you see amongst entrepreneurs?
- [57:16]
B
Yeah, I think one of the big ones is letting go is trusting other people to take your baby or your dream and bring their particular skill and viewpoint to it. I think very often the thing that stops entrepreneurs growing is they've got a very definite view on what it should, this thing should be. Not that they're wrong because actually some of the entrepreneurs that start with great ideas are fantastic and they've got great ideas. But recognize that you have to. You can't be a control freak in an entrepreneur business, I don't think. And too many people want to hold it, hold it, hold it tight. I think you've got to find some good people and trust them. Give them a go. Share, share your little birthday cake.
- [57:59]
A
Right. So you've got to get better at delegating after. Not.
- [58:02]
B
Yeah, and it's not easy because I think that, you know, you've got an idea and you think you're, you're often the only one that's done that or can do it and you know how to do it. And you've just got to let other people learn and grow and come up.
- [58:13]
A
With you because they might make some mistakes.
- [58:15]
B
Yeah. They might not do it the way you do it, but you know what, it might be better than the way you would have done it.
- [58:20]
A
Yeah. So that's a key message.
- [58:22]
B
I think it's huge. I'm noticing that a lot. Notice a lot. I do notice that with entrepreneurs there are phases where you go so far and that is a big. The first barrier I think they face is to growth, is to let go.
- [58:37]
A
All right, well, thank you very much for coming to talk to me. I always ask two questions at the end of my guests. They're all the same question. Because at Reid, we love Mondays. The first question, Adrian, is what gets you up on a Monday morning?
- [58:50]
B
I love Mondays.
- [58:51]
A
You love Mondays?
- [58:52]
B
Yeah, I love them so yeah, for me I get up at 5 anyway. I can't stop getting up at 5 o'. Clock. That's when I got for swimming and that's when I get up. So what gets me up is it's a new day. I like the morning, I like. I like the part of the day before anybody else gets up. So yeah, what should we look for?
- [59:06]
A
What do you do at 5 o'? Clock?
- [59:08]
B
I read and I just have a gentle start today and then maybe go to swimming and maybe.
- [59:12]
A
Do you still swim?
- [59:13]
B
Yeah, only a couple of times a week. I go to gym as well.
- [59:16]
A
I think you still qualify as an elite athlete to go. I'm far from elite. You are in my mind. And then lastly lastly, where do you see yourself in five years time?
- [59:26]
B
Oh, five years time. Hopefully still alive. That'd be great. But five years time I think I'll still be working because I quite like what I do. So I think yeah, yeah. So for some form of work maybe because my children will have all gone left at home by then, maybe not. Maybe they've all come back again, I don't know. So it'd be quite interesting to be present. I love being a dad so I think that in five years time I want to carry on being the best dad I could be. Be alive and still working in the things I love doing.
- [59:56]
A
Fantastic. Well, I wish you success in all of those things Adrian, and thanks so much for coming in to talk to me. It was both inspiring and informative, so really appreciate it. Thank you.
- [60:06]
B
Thanks James.
- [60:09]
A
Thank you Adrian for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reid of Family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reid Adrian's work in performance development or his coaching and advisory roles, you'll find all the links in the show notes. See you next time.