← James Reed: all about business
James Reed: all about business
63. The future of PR and business in an AI world | Francesca Gamble
01:06:12
Loading summary
Transcript349 lines
- [00:00]
A
Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. What happens when AI comes for an industry built on relationships? Today on All About Business, I'm joined by Francesca Gamble, founder of the GTN consultancy and PR agency owner, to explore how technology is reshaping the worlds of pr, branding and celebrity partnerships. We'll unpack how technology is changing access to talent, why the old agency model is being challenged, and what today's entrepreneurs need to understand about building businesses in fast moving, tech driven markets. Today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to welcome Francesca Gamble. Francesca is the CEO and founder of not one, but two companies. The first is called 29 London and it's a PR, promotions and communications company that specializes in the drinks and hospitality business. And the second is that GTN consultancy, which is Francesca, tell us all about, but brings brands together with celebrities and influencers and exciting new ways. So this is all very current and topical, Francesca. Yeah, and thanks very much for coming to talk to me. So your background, early career, Francesca, was spent in some of the premium marketing companies in the country. MNC Saatchi, the Engine Group. But then you started on your own. Yeah, I, um. Just tell us that story to begin with and welcome.
- [01:49]
B
Yeah, well, thank you for having me. It's absolute privilege to be here. How did it happen? Sometimes I don't really know. You know, you wake up one day and these things will just come to you. But I basically had got to a point where I was working in a big agency life doing what was back then, sort of that typical sort of like 16 hour days running and working for other people and doing brand activations and doing some incredible work. You know, I launched the 2012 Olympics, was very integral part of various teams, BMW Sky. So I got to see the world. So really exciting, very exciting, yeah, huge projects. I traveled the world with sort of Prince Harry and his work with Center Bali with the brand Royal Salute Whiskey. So I did a huge amount and got to be part of a lot from very young age. Really went to msc, Saatchi, did a small stint there working with Dolce Gabbana on their global campaigns and Stella McCartney. So huge global sort of PR experience. But for me there was always something more when, you know, when you're speaking to these brands, you're only really getting a small slither of what they're actually doing. And I guess there was always an itch. And I went to. There's so many great talks these days, but back then we're talking sort of 15 years ago, they were really just getting started. And there's a great communications group called Wackle Women and Communications in London. And I went to one of their panel talks and there was an amazing lady from Chanel. And that's basically why I went. You know, I was very impressionable, desperate to understand what Chanel was doing with her marketing. And actually there's another. Another lady on the panel from a really small company that I'd never really heard of. And her story is what I heard, and it resonated with me so well and really open my mind up to, I guess, the world of brands that are outside the ones we all know and love. There's a whole world out there, and obviously in today's market, with entrepreneurship being so integral, there's more brands than ever. And I guess that really opened my mind to the scope of. Well, actually how much I could achieve outside of the agencies I was on when I was working with some of the biggest brands in the world. There's also a whole plethora of other brands out there that could do with my help. So at 26, 27, I kind of jumped shit and found myself in my bedroom.
- [04:05]
A
It's a pretty brave thing to do.
- [04:06]
B
Yeah, I don't think I. I tend not to overthink things. I kind of very instinctual in kind of what I do. I didn't take any clients with me, and I pretty much had me, myself and I. And I'd find myself in the pub actually on many occasions, hoping that a client would maybe land on my lap. But I did work hard and I do have a very hard work ethic. So, yeah, I think from there things just snowballed.
- [04:33]
A
So I just would like to sort of backtrack a little bit here because you said a couple of things that I'd like to understand more. You said there was a woman who, who gave a talk, that she told a story that you really resonated with. What was the story or what was the particular point there?
- [04:47]
B
The point for me wasn't around perfection. It wasn't this idea. When you work for big agencies and, and being in that environment, it's almost like you have blinkers on. You almost have no idea that there's a whole world out there that exists outside of those four walls, which is very, you know, it's very cocooned. You're very, like, looked after.
- [05:08]
A
Right. You know, having house, restaurants, bars. It's a privileged position to be in.
- [05:13]
B
You know, you can spend half your morning just playing darts and they call that creativity. You know, I can't do that in my job. And it's not something, you know, I don't like dancing. No. I hate that. I only do things I can win at. So no dance is off the table, as is bowling. So I think that that's what obviously those big creative agencies and those big agencies from media, in the media industries have always thrived in, is those environments that they do more than just obviously do the work. I'm somebody that does need more than that. I think listening to her story and the successes she had had with her agency and talking about brands I'd never heard of, and it was like, this is hugely inspiring to me because I was very pigeonholed.
- [05:53]
A
So she was an entrepreneur who started her own agency and you saw.
- [05:57]
B
Yeah.
- [05:58]
A
Something you could possibly do too.
- [05:59]
B
Yes. It's because it's very. You are in a privileged position. So you know. You know, in an agency world, when you're looking at a client, you know, the numbers are huge on how that client's worth. Okay. When you work for yourself and you set up your own agency, you can't use those same numbers. And there's no doubt about it, I would be going in with clients with these huge numbers.
- [06:18]
A
But you don't need huge numbers if you're doing it for your bedroom.
- [06:20]
B
But it's just the way you're programmed. It's very, I think, a very privileged position. And obviously when you start earning your own paycheck. Yeah, the rules are very different.
- [06:29]
A
So then you said you set up in your own bedroom, you went to the pub hoping to bump into a client who was your first client. And how did you get going?
- [06:37]
B
So I got going through word of mouth, really. I started working with Pernod Ricard.
- [06:43]
A
That's a pretty big brand.
- [06:45]
B
Yeah.
- [06:45]
A
Perno Recall is not a bad place to start.
- [06:47]
B
No, no.
- [06:48]
A
Really? How did you get that?
- [06:50]
B
I was. When I worked in the big agencies, I was pretty much the lead person because I really understood luxury and the agencies were very much more mass consumer lifestyle. So I kind of pigeonholed myself in that area and managed to maintain sort of their global accounts and global PR toolkits and sort of really understanding that side of it. So that was a good footing for me.
- [07:12]
A
So that was the sort of niche you started out.
- [07:14]
B
It was.
- [07:15]
A
Yeah, Luxury.
- [07:16]
B
Yeah. And ultimately, what does it mean?
- [07:17]
A
Understand luxury, because people like luck. But what's it mean? Understanding to understanding it.
- [07:23]
B
It's storytelling at its best. I always feel it's, you know, you've got to sell a product, I mean, in this case a whiskey, completely differently. So for instance, we had a perfumist that came on board from Paris who was our kind of ambassador. So it's the first time you're kind of dissecting the liquid. And I think luxury has a real job to do with selling a product for the value it does, whether it's whiskey or a handbag or whatever that product is. They've got to go into the nuances of why it's worth X and what does that mean and how you connect to the customer as a result. And for me, that's always been interesting and that's somebody that definitely drew me to that area. And I started to then get a few more clients in that kind of luxury space. But actually, always, despite having done lifestyle clients, from fashion all the way through to, like, over the last couple of years, we've worked on the Eurostar. So very diverse. We really do now focus.
- [08:22]
A
What'd you do for the Eurostar?
- [08:24]
B
We launched their. Their previous Olympic campaign.
- [08:27]
A
Last for Paris.
- [08:28]
B
Yeah, for us.
- [08:29]
A
All right.
- [08:30]
B
So, yeah, I mean, we. Because you're in pr, you have to diversify a little bit. I mean, every PR company knows that. But I've made a bold move this year. We're sticking to drinks and hospitality.
- [08:44]
A
Right. What if doing good was the smartest business move you'll ever make? I'm James Reed, CEO of Reid. In my new book, Karma Capitalism, I reveal how being a Phil Co, that's a company where at least 10% of shares are owned by a charitable foundation, has become our business. Superpower companies like Lego, Ikea and Novo Nordisk share the same Filco identity. These businesses last longer, inspire loyalty and make a bigger impact on society. This book is part manifesto, part practical guide. Karma Capitalism is available now@karma capitalism.org being a good business is good business. There's sort of sectors that are under some pressure as well, aren't they? I mean, we keep hearing about the hospitality sector being hit by taxes and rates and. And then the drink sector is being challenged by people drinking less. So what are you going to do?
- [09:40]
B
Drinking less. What am I going to do? Oh, yeah.
- [09:43]
A
And how does PR getting involved in that?
- [09:46]
B
It is difficult, I think. So some of our drinks clients have also been taxed with, especially in the wine industry with the cost of the glass, where the bottle sits and the cost of the liquid. So the government is attacking it from all corners. I think the thing is that where we sit in the, in the PR industry is the kind of really fun, fluffy stuff, to be quite frank. You know, we're there, we don't do corporate things. We're not trying to do a corporate job and change the face of what's going on. We essentially spend any money that they've still got left right in, in the sort of partnership, brand partnerships area. So we've got clients looking at doing like the Traitor's live experience partnership at the moment. We've just done the Devil Wears Prada. We're doing sort of.
- [10:29]
A
So my wife Nicola. Yeah she's got a drinks business.
- [10:32]
B
Oh great.
- [10:32]
A
It's called Bieble and they make honey spirits, honey rum, honey whiskey.
- [10:36]
B
Oh, I love that.
- [10:36]
A
And it's doing really quite well. Why would she choose you? I mean, what would, what would. How would you benefit her business?
- [10:44]
B
Well, hopefully the value of an opportunity.
- [10:47]
A
To win a customer. So why would she choose.
- [10:49]
B
This is great because we're not just solely focused on what we'd call traditional PR anymore, which is important. Depending on her sort of sales channels. And that's the first thing we need to look at. Some of our clients are still quite traditional in selling to retailers and some are direct to consumer. So the sort of communication plan is completely different. And I think for us, PR is really important in today's market, despite how much it has changed the rise of AI and where people, what are people using to search for products is putting more emphasis on really good quality journalism again. So that's earned media. So that means someone like me that you're paying as a pr. Our job is to get editorial for free. It's not a paid advert. So that's why it's so important now because people are going on to chat GDP and going, right, give me the best. What are the top 10 best gins in the UK right now?
- [11:41]
A
Oh, and then chat GPT goes and searches the media.
- [11:44]
B
Well, that's where they're getting all their quality sources from. Now Google predominantly hits SEO. So if you're a brand and you're firing up SEO, your likelihood you'll come up. My sister had actually really good example. She wanted to go, she's pregnant, desperate to go to a wellness bar and relax. So she put on into Google. Put it in. Anyway, this one came up best one best One in Essex, like, you know, um, off they went. Well, her and a friend went in and I think, you know, they're turning a few heads thinking, what is this place? It's not quite looking like the pictures, you know. Then they went into the pool area and there was a bit of a commotion and out comes a mouse from underneath one of the sunbeds.
- [12:20]
A
Right.
- [12:21]
B
Suddenly it was like, wow. I mean, going back to how they searched for it was all through Google. So they sat there over lunch and thought, why don't we go on chat DP and GTP and go and have a look? What does that come up with? So basically that came up with a completely different search result and they come.
- [12:38]
A
Up with different ones each time you do it.
- [12:40]
B
Yeah. So then from there they then, then booked a new one and they visited it over Christmas and it was exactly what it said and the reference points that it was pulling.
- [12:49]
A
But how you through, how do you know that then as a customer, you're kind of traveling blind a bit.
- [12:54]
B
Well, of course, but that's what marketing is, isn't it? It's the, it's the will of who's got the most money usually to get up to, to the top of the Google rankings. That's what it's all about. And that's why it becomes a black hole, especially for like your wife. For smaller brands to compete, it is so hard, which is why you're best not to throw your money down that black hole and you're best to come to someone like me who understands PR and quality editorial. And then we work together to distinguish.
- [13:19]
A
Where this is interesting so you might agree with this opinion. So the last person who sat in that chair was called Pete Russell and he said to me that in five to 10 years time, marketing and advertising will be dead. He said, finished. And his thesis was that instead of business being based on getting people's attention.
- [13:36]
B
Yeah.
- [13:37]
A
It would all move to their intention. So I want to go to a spa or I want to buy a honey whiskey. And the way the searches bring up that information.
- [13:45]
B
Yes.
- [13:46]
A
Is materially different. That's his thesis. What do you think about that? Do you think that's possible? I mean, it seemed pretty, pretty bold statement to me. But is that how it's going to work?
- [13:57]
B
Well, it's not going to be dead. I mean, that's, that's obscene. It's never going to be dead as long as there's humans here and there's something to sell to. There's not, it's not going to be Dead. It's just going to evolve into something different ultimately. And I think the way. Look, the biggest problem we've got is trust right now. So how are we going to gain trust of the customer? That's brand's biggest hurdle over the next few years is demonstrating trust. And ultimately that's going to be earned through brands understanding community and really getting under the skin. So your wife's a great example. She's got a small business, she's in the best place, the most large brands to, to build that trust and to get that community going and engaged with her.
- [14:44]
A
Well, you think that small entrepreneurs in a better place than bigger business because.
- [14:48]
B
Because she can build community much more fluidly than a big brand. Because. Because it comes from a place of authenticity. You know, Bacardi rum going in is a lot harder, which is why they spend more on big exponential activity because they're constantly trying to find new ways because they don't have the founder story, you know, they don't, they don't know how to connect to the customer. They can't use all those foundational points that your wife has that are so important. I think the way we consume, obviously the information is going to change and I would like to think PR is about to get a new fresh take on its role within marketing because I think quality is going to be folk a big focus more than quantity and at the moment, you know, quality of.
- [15:33]
A
The sort of output of the pr.
- [15:34]
B
Yeah, yeah. And what people are looking for and obviously like you say, how, how is it going to come up for them? Where, where are they looking? Because you know, the money is on. The marketeers are all talking about substack being, you know, a real driver, long form content. So how are brands going to get involved in that? What does that look like? You know, where, where's the role of Instagram going to take, to take brands and are people still going to be on there in the next few years and engaged and Tick Tock's big. But I'm not on TikTok because I don't feel it's the right platform for me.
- [16:07]
A
For you personally or for your brands?
- [16:09]
B
For me personally, yeah. What it does for the business, yeah, maybe. But I feel that we work in a people industry so for me my time and teams time is best spent getting in front of people. And that's what I'm super passionate about is trying to get in front of people, picking up phones. You know how many conversations I've had this year already, people go, oh, you're picking up an old school phone.
- [16:32]
A
Yeah, no, I like phones. I think they're very important business tools and they get left behind a bit and people use email way too much.
- [16:40]
B
I think, or having to do zooms. I don't want to have to look at my face every time I want to speak to somebody.
- [16:46]
A
Yeah, no, the phone has a lot to. Yeah. Recommend it. I agree.
- [16:49]
B
Yeah.
- [16:49]
A
So this. So this thinking on your part, I think it must have informed your new business.
- [16:56]
B
Yes.
- [16:57]
A
So tell me about that.
- [16:59]
B
Yeah, it's quite exciting. I didn't intentionally want two businesses and it's certainly a struggle to straddle two at the moment. But the second business is a big priority for me. I think it's kind of. We're really focused on partnership. So with the intersection with brands and celebrity agents, really, you know, we do these deals between brands and then the celebrities to kind of like encourage that area to grow more. I think the world of influencers has really taken over somewhat and there is an argument now, like in terms of the kickback brands are seeing from influencers and the way that's changing in their real currency. Celebrities have always been there. They just have. Not necessarily. They're not necessarily the most inviting to go to. You know, there's a lot of ring fencing around it. You can't just call up Brad Pitt's agent. Well, you. I can call up Brad Pitt's agent because I know them.
- [17:52]
A
Right. Anyone who wants to talk to Brad Pitt, here's your contact.
- [17:58]
B
But that's my. But influencers are much more accessible. You know, brands feel that they can probably go and target the big influencers and just DM them on social media and there's a close proximity to that. But the reality is, you know, as long as we have film, you know, as long as we have tv, as long as we have music, all these key things in the art that are so important, we will continue to have celebrities. They're just not going to die. It's not something that is going to particularly move from where it was and where when I first started almost 20 years ago, hasn't particularly evolved. So for me it's really passionate. You know, I'm very passionate about working with celebrities and getting brands to work with them more and understand.
- [18:37]
A
So what have you done? Just so listeners have a sense of. So what we're talking about here. A couple of examples.
- [18:42]
B
Yeah, of course. So we have. We recently worked with Jason Statham out in the Middle east in Abu Dhabi with the Grand Prix. So we signed him for a brand out there. And he goes and does big appearance fees.
- [18:55]
A
What was the brand?
- [18:56]
B
It was the Abu Dhabi Tourist Board. So that was a really big signing. And since then he's become an integral part of, of the, of that area, trying to raise their profile around culture and entertainment, which is what the sector is trying to do out there at the moment. So our job is to make sure that kind of, that, that not only does that commercial partnership happen, but then it's important for us to build that relationship ongoing with the brand.
- [19:23]
A
So how did that come about? How was he linked with Abu Dhabi particularly? Was that your idea or was that something already existed?
- [19:31]
B
Well, brands tend to come to us with an idea in mind of who they want to work with and what they want to achieve from it. From our position, we try and strategize that. So we need to understand aims and objectives and, and what that person is going to do. And in this instance, when it becomes an appearance, it's really important for us to kind of understand what the boundaries are to that. Because someone like Jason is so big, how overly exposed he's going to be and working with his team, his agents and lawyers about actually what that looks like. So it's, it seems like such a small thing when you go on the Daily Mail and you slide down and you see an event taking place, like Formula One, for instance, and you see the celebrities there, you don't think much more of that.
- [20:17]
A
No, you just sort of absorb it.
- [20:19]
B
You just go, oh, that's great. Oh, he looks great, she looks great. This is exciting. But there's people like myself behind that that are trying to orchestrate every part of that. So, you know, it's very important that we get the right pictures. You know, it's like making a cake, really, trying to get those celebrity shots.
- [20:36]
A
So if they're not having.
- [20:37]
B
Yeah, so if these celebrities aren't having a good time, that obviously shows they're.
- [20:42]
A
Looking grumpy in the photos.
- [20:43]
B
In the photos. Yeah. And there's a huge amount of management to that. There's a huge amount of safety aspects that we have to take into consideration as well when we were working with high profile talent. But ultimately.
- [20:53]
A
So you've got another example of this recently that you've done.
- [20:56]
B
Yeah, so we've done quite a lot here in the uk, so we worked with, we worked with Laura Whitmore on various projects and Ashley Roberts, we've recently signed her for one of our rose brands that we launched. So, you know, again, she has to do what's the brand? So it's called Casalero del Diablo.
- [21:13]
A
Right.
- [21:14]
B
So it's quite a popular brand and they've launched their own rose wine and Castilero del Diablo.
- [21:20]
A
Something of the devil, doesn't. It was the castle.
- [21:22]
B
Yeah. It's all about the devil.
- [21:23]
A
Is that what I'm saying is that there's a question here in my mind is why? Well, why the brand wants to be associated with her in particular, but also why she wants to is prepared to put her own brand, you know, up alongside someone else's. What's the sort of negotiation here?
- [21:38]
B
Well, first of all, we have to kind of match the brand values and say something like a rose wine that's meant to be all about fun and excitement and it was more about the angel rather than the devil.
- [21:55]
A
Have you got someone in mind for the other angel?
- [21:57]
B
Yeah, I'm not telling you.
- [21:58]
A
Oh, yeah, very good.
- [21:59]
B
Well, we're just working on their global ambassador role at the moment, so that will be interesting to see what happens there over the next few weeks. But we have to marry brand values ultimately, so there's a few ways we can do it. Look, we're talking about big brands at the moment that have money to spend on talent and ultimately.
- [22:15]
A
So brands are looking for celebrities.
- [22:17]
B
Yes, brands look for celebrities.
- [22:20]
A
But is this new or have they always done this?
- [22:21]
B
Well, they've always done this, haven't they? If you think back in advertising terms.
- [22:24]
A
They'Ve always done so. But this is new because of the new media that can give it sort of.
- [22:28]
B
It's always happened. But again, I don't think brands necessarily always think about going to celebrities. I think influencers often take precedent and you know, I think a celebrity offers much more than an influencer because. Because their media value is so high. You know, they don't just sit online. They're not just. And I think the way that world is moving at the moment, putting all your eggs in one basket, if you've only got X amount of budget to spend all in one space, I don't think is necessarily smart in reaching the customer now. So I think when you partner with a celebrity, the likelihood is they're on TV or you've watched them on Netflix or something and then you may follow them on social media. There's a lot of large like actors, so like Daniel Craig, Andrew Scott, Benedict, Cumberbatch, they're not on social media. So we find they're still getting huge deals because it's. That there's no brands don't mind that. You know, they're looking at their. Their worth and their image worth. But what we're also finding on, we're working on a randomly a rose wine deal at the moment, which I can't say who, but with a big musician in America and this is an equity deal so I think something that I am looking at working more on especially with like small to medium sized businesses.
- [23:49]
A
What do you mean an equity deal?
- [23:51]
B
Well, the idea is, is we bring celebrities on to a brand, depending on the level of the brand and where they're at, but ideally to get them involved in next few perspectives so they'll.
- [24:01]
A
Become shareholders of that brand.
- [24:02]
B
Yeah, famously Jennifer Aniston came on to Smart Water which sold for like 4 billion, you know.
- [24:08]
A
Yes. So it's Paul Newman was one of the source, wasn't he?
- [24:13]
B
Well, look, I think that the way the world is at the moment, you.
- [24:16]
A
Know, this is happening a lot, I mean lots.
- [24:18]
B
Well, I think it's a really great place for to be and that's something that I would really encourage. You know, if you've got a brand like you should really be looking at this and I think that's something that we can. We're kind of the gatekeepers to a lot of these celebrities and talent, not in the UK but globally. And it's a really viable option, you know, if you want to grow a celebrity is the best way to do it. And Emma Greed, who's, you know, co founder of Skims and Good America, you know, she uses. That's her superpower, you know, she is, she understands the game. Because the problem you've got with products is that a lot of entrepreneurs can spend years developing products, right? They believe they've got the best gin in the market, right. And they've got this liquid and then they pop it into a bottle, brand it and then they expect everybody to get it. And the problem you've got is that that really doesn't stand out when you put it against compet unless you've got marketing attached to it. And that's what is the difference between whether a customer purchases it or not. Ultimately the marketing is fundamentally the most important thing and celebrities get the cut through really quickly and get you seen by your target audience. And I think Emma has done an incredible job and not many other brands stick their neck out as much as she's done and invest in celebrities quite like she has done across her brands.
- [25:39]
A
So we had the maker of the best gin in here just the other day, Lady Carnarvon. She makes high clear gin and it's very successful in America, but she's Got Downton Abbey, I guess, as the. As the marketing for that, which is sort of in. Supports your point. Yeah, good gin. And people know where it's come from.
- [25:56]
B
And people love the Royal. That sort of Royal.
- [26:00]
A
Well, they're not quite royal, but they're aristocratic.
- [26:02]
B
It's that especially in America though, that. That just takes huge. But yeah, that this goes.
- [26:08]
A
Downton Abbey was very successful. So that association between something that's in the media, celebrity and A is working more and more effectively, it sounds like if you get the right combinations.
- [26:20]
B
Yeah.
- [26:21]
A
And that's your. That's your sort of business focus here.
- [26:24]
B
Yes. And the second half of GTN consultancy is we do brand to brand partnerships as well. So we bring. Say, for instance, can't talk about everything we're working on at the moment, but we bring brands together to hopefully do really credible sponsorship deals. So we worked on like E on Next, the big energy company. We recently did a partnership that they were looking at doing in a new sector. So we brought. They wanted to do gaming because their whole idea was they wanted their customers to turn off their energy for an hour a day, which is obviously a great story for an energy company to say they want you. Want you to turn the energy off. And during that time they wanted to encourage people to play and do something. So we bought on a gaming company called Big Potato, which is sales wise up there, as big as sort of Mattel and they are still privately owned small business. And that was something very important to me because I'm a real champion of working with those types of companies. And, you know, that's been a really successful partnership. So that's another way that we.
- [27:26]
A
So this is putting two brands alongside each other.
- [27:28]
B
Yeah.
- [27:29]
A
What do you call that? Just a partnership?
- [27:30]
B
Brand partnerships or a sponsorship? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's something.
- [27:35]
A
And from the brand's point of view, is that a way of getting into a new market or getting a new audience or what's the. What's the. Yeah, what's the rationale for that?
- [27:42]
B
Well, it's exactly that. It depends what the. It depends the reasons for going in. Right. So for something like eonnects have got 5 million customers and Big Potato is a much smaller business than that. So the, the alignment there is they're going to be able to look at sort of shared customer reach and be able to push themselves out to new customers, I'd say is their biggest object at that point. But other things we've worked on. So when we worked on the launch of Devawares, Prada One of our clients actually wanted to be able to use those assets in store. So when you shop in Tesco's, they were able to then brand all the end of the aisles up with the Devil Wears Prada. And that drove huge amounts of sales. So that was hugely.
- [28:27]
A
Sales at Tesco of the Devil Wears product. Book or film? Are we talking about.
- [28:31]
B
This is. No, they were selling wine.
- [28:33]
A
Oh, okay.
- [28:34]
B
And basically helped increase their sales massively through that association that they had through their sponsorship.
- [28:40]
A
Why?
- [28:42]
B
Because people like familiarity. They like to see things and go, that's interesting.
- [28:48]
A
Well, Devil Wears Prada. Help them sell wine.
- [28:51]
B
Well, it's the Devil Wears Prada. Have the. They launched the live theater show.
- [28:57]
A
Okay. So that's what.
- [28:58]
B
Yeah. So. And. And then the film is out this year as well. So there's a real, like very topical. So what we're very good at doing is also looking at what's happening in culture.
- [29:06]
A
Right. You know, and look, so people who are aware if they see it somewhere else and.
- [29:11]
B
Yeah. And they're like, well, actually, I want to go to that or see that. And then the wine can do their bit afterwards. But it's very competitive, obviously, as you know, in the retail space. So any partnerships that drive point of purchase and, you know, get customers interested ahead of their competitors.
- [29:26]
A
Right.
- [29:27]
B
Small increments helps these. Helps these brands.
- [29:31]
A
So in terms of building your business, how do you. How do you go about that? You know, it's relatively new consulting.
- [29:36]
B
No, no. Still figuring out.
- [29:39]
A
That's refreshing. What have you tried so far?
- [29:42]
B
That's why for me, I've. So I've been doing. I'd say this solidly for just about 10 years now. And I'd say I'm very much at this point now where my next 10 years are going to be looking very different than my previous one. I think the last 10 years have very much tried and tested lots of things. I think the fact that I'm still here in our industry is. Well, it's kind of remarkable, I think.
- [30:07]
A
Why'd you say that?
- [30:09]
B
Because most agencies die, you know, they can't.
- [30:12]
A
Why? Why do they die?
- [30:14]
B
I. My personal opinion is a lot of agencies are built on smoke and mirrors. Um, it's very ego. It's very like you can go on LinkedIn, type in all the agencies, and you'll see the. The drivel up there of everybody shouting about what awards they won, what things they've won. Oh, my God.
- [30:28]
A
Clients don't really care about awards.
- [30:29]
B
No one cares about awards. No. And the problem is, once You. Once you've won an award, you're already out of date because you've got to go with another one. Otherwise. Yeah, you're talking about the 2020 award you won. 20, 25 or 26.
- [30:42]
A
Exactly. I mean. But customers don't care that you've won an award. I want to know what ideas you've got for that.
- [30:47]
B
The only award I really quite like, if I'm being honest, is the great. The Taste Awards.
- [30:51]
A
The Great Taste Awards.
- [30:52]
B
You know, when you have a gold star.
- [30:54]
A
Oh, Nicola's got those decaf honey whiskeys.
- [30:56]
B
Oh, there you go. I love a Taste award.
- [30:57]
A
Although that's. That's a. That's a sort of quality stamp.
- [31:00]
B
Yes. I really like those awards, but our industry awards.
- [31:02]
A
No, that's not going up and getting something in a black tie picture taken. Put it on LinkedIn.
- [31:07]
B
I'm very anti all that sort of stuff, to be honest. I really thought I'd try because I don't like conforming. I didn't want to. I just don't like conforming. I'm not very ego. I'm very focused on the work and just getting my head down.
- [31:19]
A
And so you think these agencies that sort of didn't succeed are distracted by this.
- [31:25]
B
Oh, and ego driven. It's. I feel like it's so easy to be distracted by it. It's there especially if you just jumped straight from one of those big agencies to set up your own, you know, so easy to do it. So easy to be distracted because it is what.
- [31:39]
A
There are many distractions.
- [31:41]
B
Yeah. And it's.
- [31:41]
A
So you're a big believer in focus.
- [31:44]
B
Huge focus. Yeah. I like. That's why I. That's why I'm still here. I think, you know, I'm very, very. I've been very flexible in how we've worked. Very amenable. I don't think I've ever said no.
- [31:58]
A
What's a customer?
- [31:59]
B
Yeah. I will always bend over backwards. And I think any clients that know me knows that's how we've always.
- [32:04]
A
But you charge them accordingly.
- [32:07]
B
Yes.
- [32:07]
A
You kind of have to, don't you? Otherwise you lose out.
- [32:10]
B
I'm here for the long term. I will still be working when I'm 80. So for me, I'm not here in a mad race. But, you know, I have felt a certain type of laser focus new. I knew I was coming into this new phase and with the businesses that we've.
- [32:29]
A
The next decade.
- [32:30]
B
Yeah, yeah. And it's. And I feel like now I'm really pitting a lot of my learnings now into practice. And I'm not saying, I'm not saying yes to things, but how I go about stuff now is definitely been tweaked and refined based on where we were. So it's kind of exciting. It's, you know, we were in a meeting the other week with a client and speaking about potential sponsorship and they put us in to the same breath as img and you know, the reality is that's exciting for me because we're small independently owned company in which we will remain that. Um, and we've got big ambitions to where we want to go and the conversations and the people we're in the room with. I'm proud of how I've got us there. And my plan is now to keep building that and maintain a very small senior level team with the right mindset. And that's something, you know, I've learned as I'm getting older that.
- [33:25]
A
So you really want to keep control of your business. And I do make sure it's.
- [33:30]
B
Yeah, I do.
- [33:31]
A
That's the work that you want to do.
- [33:33]
B
Yeah. I mean if there's. With the GTN sector, we are building a tech product at the moment that will be a brand and celebrity connector and allow a much more seamless approach to how brands want to work with celebrities. And that's a tech product. I'm kind of bootstrapping myself, which is really difficult because I don't have endless amounts of money. Any money we've made I've earned and it's really easy to just spend it all. It just doesn't.
- [34:05]
A
So these AI projects can sort of start becoming quite expensive.
- [34:08]
B
Yeah.
- [34:09]
A
Yes.
- [34:09]
B
Yeah, it is.
- [34:10]
A
I've shared that.
- [34:12]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Lots of people told me how much money these things are to get off the ground, but I'm. I am. I don't know, maybe it's that entrepreneurial part of me and I'm a bit ignorant and stubborn where I just go, I need to do it myself first. Because I figure if you don't do something yourself and fully understand all of it, you get sidetracked by the money aspect. And you know, in theory, in today's world, it's not difficult to get money from people to fund projects to raise money. Yeah. And that's not something right now I want to do. I feel like I probably lose control too early on, but I think we're onto a good thing. A bit unprepared to.
- [34:48]
A
So you're putting your own money in or money that's been generated by the companies or revenue investment. You're not going outside for debt or for equity investment.
- [34:56]
B
No.
- [34:57]
A
So that means you, you're the still. The whole. Whole owner then.
- [35:00]
B
For now.
- [35:01]
A
I can see the appeal of that. I mean that's.
- [35:03]
B
Well, yeah, I think you can do.
- [35:05]
A
That and make, make the progress you want to make in that way. That's the best way to do it, I thought.
- [35:09]
B
Yeah, well, I'd like to have proof. I'd like to, you know, proof of concept and at least put my money where my mouth is. If somebody was going to come in and invest, at least they know who they're investing in and that's half of what investment is about.
- [35:20]
A
You mentioned that this investment that you're making at the moment is.
- [35:22]
B
Yeah.
- [35:23]
A
A sort of brand celebrity matcher.
- [35:26]
B
Yeah.
- [35:26]
A
I mean we're in the business of matching people with client companies who want to hire them. Yeah, but what's a, how does a brand celebrity match work? What are you looking for? How would you put the two together?
- [35:37]
B
Well, that will go down. So we're putting the kind of emphasis here on the, the brands to be able to attract the right celebrities in terms of what they're wanting to offer. So it's in our, in our world a lot of gifting happens. So brands want celebrities to go to try their new hotel and all these kind of things. And often there is no monetary exchange. So that is something that we're now bringing together. So we're not necessarily going to be looking at different values here. We're going to be looking at kind of what the brand is looking to add in terms of its offering. And then through that it will attract the right celebrities and will get notified that this is something that's suited for them.
- [36:23]
A
I mean I often think that celebrities could do a lot to help new companies start.
- [36:27]
B
Agreed.
- [36:28]
A
You know, they just said I've just been to this wonderful cafe or yeah. Had this great experience in this shop or whatever. It really help. Help the entrepreneurs. I think they should do that more. I'm really sort of superpower. They have that. I think many of them don't really realize. Well, and you're sort of bringing that out 100.
- [36:45]
B
Because the real. Yeah, because ultimately, you know, you've got talent agents who manage these celebrities a lot of the time and you know, lots of them not based in the UK unless there is a monetary exchange. They won't necessarily read your email.
- [37:01]
A
No.
- [37:02]
B
You know, now my thoughts on that is that it is short sighted that there is a journey that some brands should be going on with Talent and how that works and making sure that there's an authenticity to that, to that. And I think shutting down conversations isn't just something that I'm. That I would ever do. And this is why I think that long term, if we can bring these together and celebrities are on their phone scanning things and they're saying, traveling around the world like you said, and there's a new cafe or anything, they should be able to, in a click of a button, have. Have access to these kind of things more easily because it's already existing in the influencer world. That's the difference right now.
- [37:39]
A
On the other side of all this wonderful world of possibilities is, is the downside with associating with celebrities is sometimes they can go and do some awful thing, just can so damage your brand if they're sort of alongside each other.
- [37:57]
B
Yes.
- [37:57]
A
I can think of several examples. I won't name names, but people are. People are unpredictable. Should we say that?
- [38:04]
B
Yeah.
- [38:04]
A
And so how do you deal with that when that happens? When something blows up, some celebrity's done something terrible and your precious brand is sort of aligned with them?
- [38:14]
B
Yeah.
- [38:15]
A
Well, have you had that experience?
- [38:16]
B
Crisis comms comes into play. I mean, I've had some close calls and I can't mention names.
- [38:24]
A
Yeah. Okay.
- [38:25]
B
Which could have really. Could really have been blown out of proportions.
- [38:29]
A
Well, that's a risk from the company's.
- [38:31]
B
Point of view, of course. And from a contractual perspective, that's all covered off, you know, that's all very well, contractually. Well, contractually, that has to be covered off. There has to be a point that there is that, you know, everyone has to kind of safeguard themselves equally talent safeguarding themselves from some brands that maybe act out. But in those situations, you know, you've got to just do what any great, especially with your PR ha on is be. Be able to break down what's gone on and try and act accordingly. Now, I think in today's world, it's very difficult to act accordingly because everybody's so scared about being cancelled.
- [39:07]
A
Yeah. If your brand's associated or if you're as a celebrity, suddenly find yourself associated with a company that's doing something terrible. In some part of the world, that's bad too.
- [39:16]
B
It is. But some of the, some of the time stuff isn't that terrible. It's just the fact we forget we're human and humans do make mistakes and there's sometimes, you know, we need to take a step back and look at this and what this actually means. But the problem we've got is social media will blow anything up instantly. So the smallest thing could just be out of control if it's not contained. So I think we are living in a very tricky time at the moment where. But that intersection is a bit dicey because I do think a lot of people are scared about being canceled as well as brands being canceled if they don't say the right thing or toe the right line. And if they're working with a celebrity that they feel maybe stood out of line slightly, they're quickly to get rid of them.
- [39:56]
A
Yeah.
- [39:58]
B
So I don't think that used to happen. I think people would end up forgetting and it'd be like, what did you say? Tomorrow's fish and chip paper.
- [40:05]
A
Yeah. It's not the same online, though. It's there forever, isn't it?
- [40:08]
B
It's there forever until Trump does something and knocks it all out.
- [40:12]
A
If you look someone up on Google, it's going to be there whatever it was that upset them.
- [40:17]
B
Well, we have like, we had a situation with a brand. We're really looking at working with Tom Hiddleston. And no, he's so interesting because he used to go out with Taylor Swift quite a long time ago. She's now engaged, you know, and he's got a child and is moved. Everybody has moved on. Right, right. But when he famously put on an I love Taylor Swift T shirt and dance in the sea, that has definitely haunted him. You know it. And it's hard because the Internet doesn't let you forget. And Thomas is amazing, talented actor. He does not need to be associated with that anymore. We've all, all done silly things and it was silly and fun, but the same breath that is remembered by brands and by thinking people and other. So those associations because of social media, even if it wasn't an awful thing, it's still something that can stick with you. And the Internet sadly doesn't let you forget.
- [41:14]
A
So how do you advise it? So, yeah, so if someone's going to make a statement or something at some point in time, you have to give them quite good advice, don't you? About.
- [41:23]
B
Yeah.
- [41:23]
A
Would you be happy to see that in 15 years from now?
- [41:26]
B
But we're human and we're just going through that experience. It's. You can't control everybody. Look, as much as I'd love to control everyone, but that's not the end.
- [41:35]
A
Of the world, is it? I mean, no, lots of people love Taylor Swift.
- [41:39]
B
I mean, everyone loves Taylor Swift, so it's not the end of the world.
- [41:42]
A
Yeah. You had some interesting views about sort of entrepreneur entrepreneurship and the sort of idea that entrepreneurs have become fashionable. I think you expressed a little concern about that. What's your, what's your concern?
- [41:57]
B
Well, I think looking across especially the Internet and social media, without a doubt, I think entrepreneurship has had a huge pr. I don't know who PR it. I suspect people like Gary Vay, who's head of management, you know, various media companies, you know, definitely help champion this idea of, of, of entrepreneurship, which is great, but I. And you want everybody to feel like they can work for themselves. But I do think there's a, there's a tough reality on that. And people who do work for themselves and who are struggling, you know, fighting against it, because not everybody is made to work for themselves. It's okay.
- [42:33]
A
No, people are sort of setting up who maybe aren't suited to it.
- [42:37]
B
Yeah, because it's not. Well, for me, an entrepreneur is prepared to risk it all for the idea that they've got. And I don't think many people actually are. I've met too many people who tell me they've got an idea and they're just sort of waiting for a million pounds to come in investment until they can, you know, live their entrepreneurial dream. That for me isn't being an entrepreneur. You know, people who are just living day by day, you know, writing decks to get money in and not necessarily putting their money where their mouth is first, going out there, doing the work, doing the research, you know, really putting themselves up against it.
- [43:12]
A
So you're a big believer in sort of bootstrapping for starting from the thing.
- [43:15]
B
That'S for me, adds credibility. If I was going to work with a brand who had bootstrapped and demonstrated, that's. That for me is exciting. There are people who really understand it. I think being an entrepreneur is somebody that is developing their product, you know, all the time. And they're always constantly looking for ways to, to be better in their own marketplace and they're prepared to be at the forefront of something even before it's been done before. I actually wouldn't really consider myself an entrepreneur. I think I have elements of it, but I work in a service industry. I think developing a tech product and seeing this white space that I feel like I have at the moment is maybe moving into more of that space of truly being an entrepreneur. But you know, I have, my dad was, is a true entrepreneur. He's his multiple businesses and he's an engineer and developer and it's done all sorts of incredible things. And that, that's for Me, where I would always place entrepreneurship. And I think that we need to reconfigure what this is. I think people have to be happy in their 9 to 5 is absolutely fine. To have a 9 to 5. It's brilliant, in fact, have the stability, earn the paycheck, you know, do the thing. Jumping this side of the fence is very different. You know, you really have to be okay with not earning money or to. To not have good months and bad months. And to know what your relationship is with money is. Is crucial, and it just isn't for everybody. And you have to take the rough with the smooth, ultimately. And I feel that we need to get a bit more real about what that is, because ultimately, you've got amazing companies losing people because they're all desperate to. To set up on their own when actually stay where you are. Speak to the person you're working to and find out how you can grow within a great space and maybe have a bit of that entrepreneurial feel without the risk it might take. So I think that entrepreneurship probably needs to be slightly reevaluated as it. As it moves forward about really that it's such a big word and people are desperate to be an entrepreneur.
- [45:16]
A
And what that really is sort of. It's more. It's not just a positive. You'll say, you know, there are lots of things that come with it that maybe don't suit certain people.
- [45:26]
B
Yeah. Because ultimately, if you're sitting at home with a family and you've got children and you've watched enough stuff on the Internet to drive you to believe that you've got something about you that could make money, you know, from your kitchen table or something, you know, you're putting a lot on the line, and therefore, you need to really pressure test what that means. And if you're about to sacrifice a paycheck and what that looks like, it can't be taken lightly. But equally, you know, I do believe you can take those risks, but you just need to be calculated. And I think sometimes the information we get given can often feel like everyone can do it. Yeah, just, you know, shoot for the moon, throw in your.
- [46:07]
A
Yeah.
- [46:08]
B
Throw in the towel, and off you go to your entrepreneurship journey and you'll, you know, drive a Ferrari in the next next few weeks and live the life of luxury. And that's definitely not the complete truth, as I'm sure you know.
- [46:20]
A
Yeah. So, Francesca, you've mentioned that you're investing a lot of your own money and business resources into sort of technology and AI at the moment. Building a platform.
- [46:30]
B
Yeah.
- [46:30]
A
What's the problem that this platform is seeking to solve? What's the service that you really want to deliver that you're not able to without it?
- [46:38]
B
I just really want to bring brands much closer to celebrities. That's for me a key marketing point that is being missed off at the moment. A lot of the focus gets put on the influencers and there's just not enough on celebrities. There is tons of platforms out there that brands sign up to where they get instant access to influencers and they can run campaigns through them. There isn't anything like it with celebrities and one of the biggest reasons is because our industry in the celebrity world comes heavily down to relationships. It's personal relationships between agents, talent brands or people like myself who sit at the intersection of both brands and talent. So our job is to maintain those relationships with the agencies and the celebrities themselves and to forge these partnerships because ultimately from an organic perspective, when brands want to gift or want to entertain. So whether or not it's the F1 inviting celebrities down on a non paid basis or invitations to, to the Brit awards or the BAFTAs or maybe your wife's gin and people want to support smaller companies. The idea being is that this will be the first platform that actually gives full access to, to the celebrities and vice versa. And there will be an interaction there obviously safeguarded. But the idea is, is that you'll be able to sort of get that transaction over pretty quickly and be able to get the brand in front of those celebrities.
- [48:03]
A
So. So there's a much more increased awareness amongst the celebrities. Celebrities that.
- [48:07]
B
Exactly.
- [48:08]
A
Possibility.
- [48:09]
B
Yeah, exactly. And I think at the moment it's very difficult for brands to suddenly find the money to say I want to work with that celebrity. They often think it's going to be too far out of reach or they don't know the right contacts. There's a lot of barriers to entry with working with celebrities and we just kind of want to democratize that. You know, we want it to be a bit more of an open platform and ultimately we want it to result in great commercial deals further along the line and so to see more celebrities. Now when we talk about celebrities I'm talking about say a lot of us think about a listers but in our world there is so many other rising stars that we work with. We work with cultural tastemakers, people like Yinka Alori who's the most incredible artist. He designed, he designed so many things and he's done like the Marks and Spencer shopping bags for instance in all the bright colors people like that will be on our platform, you know, if the brand is looking to, you know, work with a dj, those sort of things as well. Like, for me, I'm very immersed in the creative and the arts industry. There are lots of rising stars in the world of presenting and podcasting who are kind of mini celebrities in their own right. So for us, there's going to be a real cross section of where this goes. And these people that we have on our platform do not, I guess, associate themselves with being an influencer. They want. They either already are a celebrity or they're almost coming into celebrity sort of world themselves. And I think that's really important. You know, the people on the platform will have media profiles, not just social media.
- [49:45]
A
And that is the pitch to the companies or the brands that these people have a bigger profile, bigger impact. Is it over the influencer group?
- [49:55]
B
Yeah, it's just a different profile. It's just, it's just different, you know.
- [49:59]
A
Talk to different customers.
- [50:00]
B
Different customers, yeah, exactly. And. And some of them, you know, especially with the rising stars, you know, to have a brand to be able to grow with somebody is quite exciting when their career is starting out and, you know, we want to be able to give brands and open the sort of the possibilities to that because currently it's not available in the marketplace.
- [50:22]
A
When you, when you look around the sort of business landscape, what sort of celebrity brand associations do you think have been particularly successful?
- [50:32]
B
I mean, there's, I mean, this feels like there's tons. So I have an industry, an industry newsletter on Substack. We have about one and a half thousand brands signed up and brand owners where we talk about, it's called fronted, and we talk about all the deals and the faces that are shaping culture. So we go through so many interesting ones. So for this week alone, we've had. Well, this week coming up, we've had Elton John, who's just signed his first ever drinks deal with a zero percent Elton John sparkling.
- [51:05]
A
I was hoping it would be zero. Remarkable story.
- [51:09]
B
Yeah, exactly. Well, we hope it's zero. That's always a good thing. You know, we had Alison Hammond, recently signed line with Spec Savers, and in the same breath we had Emma Willis, Vision Express. So, you know, the glasses brands are out there busy, busy spending because they have a message to send out to their customers and that's the quickest way they're going to be able to get their reach. I mean, there's so many.
- [51:31]
A
So if people want to see this and visit you. Yeah, they can go to your website. Is it. Or it's Instagram. Where. Where would people.
- [51:40]
B
We can go? Well, we're obviously across all the platforms. I'm trying my best to go across all of them, but we can. You can head up to our website, GTN Consultancy co to find substack on there. The link my LinkedIn fronted. I also have just started to get into videos.
- [51:55]
A
Right, very good.
- [51:56]
B
I know. I'm trying. I'm pushing it here. So we do a weekly newsletter with a roundup of video of me giving the spiel of it. So that's my LinkedIn and that's called frontage fronted. Yeah. So we're growing that this year. The idea is, you know, more brands who are looking to sign people. You know, we want some inside knowledge and information on those kind of stories.
- [52:16]
A
Yeah. And you started right at the beginning saying you. When you set up, you wanted to work with smaller brands when you left the big agency world.
- [52:22]
B
Yeah.
- [52:22]
A
Dolce Gabbana.
- [52:23]
B
Yeah.
- [52:24]
A
I mean, if you're a smaller brand, is this still a possibility to celebrities work with smaller brands?
- [52:30]
B
Yeah. To my point earlier, I think equity is the rate, the way that these brands should be going. I think that, look, there's a few.
- [52:39]
A
The Rex and Football Club model.
- [52:41]
B
Yeah. I mean, perfect. Done, sold.
- [52:44]
A
Give them some shares.
- [52:47]
B
But it is that.
- [52:47]
A
Right. And then they're bought in. Literally.
- [52:49]
B
Yes, but it only works. Look, I've.
- [52:52]
A
You can't get rid of them.
- [52:53]
B
No. I've worked with a lot of small businesses over my time and honestly, most of them are not at a stage where that's a possibility because they're not mature enough in the way they view marketing and the way they're looking to grow. And ultimately, you know, just putting a celebrity in there, you've got to still facilitate all the other channels that you've got to be able to supercharge this at the right time.
- [53:18]
A
You know how much equity. I'm just thinking. Yeah. If thinking about it.
- [53:25]
B
Celebrity investor into Reid.
- [53:27]
A
I was not reading. I was thinking more people. Nicholas Business. It's honey whiskey, honey rum drink. I mean, if you found a celebrity, how much equity would you be advising the company?
- [53:38]
B
It will all depend on our exit strategy. Really.
- [53:40]
A
Yeah. So what's the range? What's the sort of. Give us an example. We're talking about here.
- [53:46]
B
You've got to be looking at like a decent wedge. So you've got to be looking at like up to sort of 30, 40, 40 sometimes, depending on.
- [53:54]
A
That's a big wedge.
- [53:55]
B
If you've got no cash to put down up front.
- [53:58]
A
Right.
- [53:58]
B
And you've got no signing fee. And depending on the future projections of the business.
- [54:04]
A
And so giving away 30 or 40%, well, you.
- [54:08]
B
You could do on a small.
- [54:09]
A
But you'd say it would be worth it because of the pickup.
- [54:12]
B
I would.
- [54:12]
A
Celebrity could bring.
- [54:13]
B
I could, yeah. I say it's worth it.
- [54:15]
A
Well, how.
- [54:16]
B
It's only worth it if, depending on. On your strategy, you have to under. As I said, you can't just. It's the same with anything. You can't go and pay a PR agency to make your brand famous if you don't have your ducks in a row with all your other marketing, your CRM systems, the whole. It falls flat and doesn't work. And I can tell you that because I come. So many small businesses come to me when PR doesn't work. And unfortunately is. PR is earned, so therefore it doesn't work and there are no guarantees that you can pay me all the money in the world. I'll get you any coverage. Unfortunately, that's the way when you say it's earned, because it's called earned media. Because we didn't pay. So advertisement placements obviously are guaranteed, but you'll be paying, yeah. You know, a huge amount of money for that. So the going back to the equity part, it's the same thing. Like, if you have a brand who's serious about growth and where they're aiming for and where the brand is going. Like, I think there's a. The brand. Hard Seltzer brand signed Ellie Goulding, for instance. You know, they worked with her, they signed her for a project very early on when they launched and then she became a shareholder of the business and now as part of its growth.
- [55:27]
A
Right.
- [55:27]
B
So it. It does work, but it depends who's behind the brand and what. What the growth strategy is. Because if there's no growth and exit on this, then. Yeah, it's. It's not.
- [55:35]
A
So the celebrity would be looking for an exit.
- [55:38]
B
Yeah.
- [55:39]
A
Typically a bit like private equity.
- [55:40]
B
They all want to make their money, don't they?
- [55:44]
A
So they would be sort of pushing an entrepreneur. They sort of move.
- [55:47]
B
Yeah. But when we, you know, when the problem is we've. We've gone way past this idea of just slapping a celebrity's name on and hoping the product will sell. It doesn't work. You have got. The celebrity has to be massively invested. I mean, obviously Ryan Reynolds and Wrexham, as you can see, he's so invested. He's there, he's doing it, he's present. That is why that works. If he just bought it and left it, then it wouldn't be where it is today. So the buy in has to be a 5050 approach. That celebrity can't get away with it. And lots of celebrities as well, like they're not ready for that themselves either. Their career is too busy and they can't supply the time. So, you know, they've got to pressure test things from both sides. There's a, there's a young brand called Valerie that a friend of mine runs and we're just starting to help her scope out celebrity involvement. It's for Perimenopause and it's an incredible sort of supplement that you can drink and take. She's huge reviews, doing really well and she's busy going through rounds of funding. You know, there is a point in her journey where this is going to start to, to really help her, like push them to the next level when hopefully we've got the likes of a Debina McCall, fingers crossed, you know, fronting it because it adds credibility and notoriety to what she's doing. But she's already had nearly two years proving why this works and she's, she's in that, in that realm of stepping stones to the right place to be able to see the benefit of working with a celebrity.
- [57:14]
A
So this sounds to me like a big growth area and a good opportunity for your business. Do you think that the sort of PR agency, the traditional type of company that you originally started your career in, do you think that has much, much more legs? Do you think that's going to change or go.
- [57:33]
B
I mean, I think it has legs. I don't know. I could not predict where it's going to go because ultimately I feel the reports that you read in the press and the industry news about pr, there's less PR people now coming through from a younger generation perspective. And that's quite sad because I think fundamentally the core values of a pr. So I was just giving examples on the phone the other day with Live Nation, somebody in the Middle East. We got on so well and he just suddenly let something slip and I realized, I said, did you still work in pr? He said, did you work in pr? Say, yeah. I say, this is why we got on so well. There's a, there's a way in which a PR person and the person who works in pr, the skill set is just so useful to so many parts of marketing and in business they're not ever shut off from an idea or they won't ever not go out of their way to help you, or they'll not ever go out of their way to solve a problem. And that skill set and mindset I, I love and I really attracted to people who have that, whether they work in PR or not. But often we find it in PR because PR is changing so much. And the way we solve problems for brands isn't just a question of like, well, if you do this PR stunt, you'll get in the Sunday Times or you'll get in the sun and it will be amazing. That doesn't happen anymore. So PR shows up, social media, podcasting, substack, Reddit, you know, it's everywhere. And the people who have that skill set, it's a shame that maybe finding it dying out because they're thinking there's not enough money in it anymore and maybe chasing other avenues where they'll get paid a lot more money.
- [59:12]
A
Right. And also just. I want to ask this as a female founder.
- [59:17]
B
Yeah.
- [59:17]
A
In what, you know, looking back at the agency world, certainly that I grew up in, because I worked at Saatchi and Saatchi many years ago was pretty male dominated.
- [59:26]
B
Yeah.
- [59:27]
A
What was your experience of that? And what advice would you give to other women who are thinking of sharing this journey?
- [59:34]
B
It's really interesting question because without a doubt, when I first started, I was super male heavy and there's a lot of high fiving in meeting rooms. And I was definitely one of the ones who would look around and think, I'm sure I just said that. How is, how are they now taking that idea? And I felt, you know, you felt small and minimized. And I would have other girls at the time, you know, coming to me for advice and support because I'm. I grew up with two older brothers and I'm from a very large family, so I didn't have much problem about speaking out. So I've always kind of mentored people in that, in that realm. But for sure, I've, I've seen it. Do I think about it now? No. I think the world's changed a lot. I don't think that culture necessarily exists like it did. I don't think it can do. I think being a female founder is certainly something that I'd love to see more female founders, like, be around. Especially at my age and my level, I don't think there's enough. It's very difficult once you get out of our industry to get back in. Ultimately, I don't have children, but a lot of people have stepped out to have kids and then it's impossible to get back in and I can see why. It's running at a million miles an hour and if you don't jump on the train, you know you're kicked off. And that's how this industry has always been. I don't think it's changed in that, in that perspective. But I've always been a big advocate. I've always for women in business especially and mentoring and been a part of various mentor groups and supported younger women coming through. I would love to see more women stick at it post sort of the age of 40 and keeping it and see more women support other women. I think that's a big thing. So, yeah, I think anyone who's looking for support hit up the DMs, so.
- [61:19]
A
So, so they can message you directly.
- [61:21]
B
Yeah, yeah. I'm always up for a chat. That's really kind pick up the phone like old school.
- [61:26]
A
So we'll make sure that they can connect with you through the show.
- [61:30]
B
Notes.
- [61:30]
A
And finally, Francesca, for entrepreneurs building businesses right now, what's one, what we might call mindset shift that we might need to make to stay relevant in this new AI driven world?
- [61:45]
B
To stay relevant in the AI world?
- [61:47]
A
Yeah.
- [61:48]
B
I would say what do we need.
- [61:50]
A
To be thinking about?
- [61:52]
B
Thinking about AI. Thinking about AI. Think about how to be more human. Everyone else is thinking, thinking about AI. So I think we're going to get to a point where you're going to have to prove that you're human. So, you know, you, for instance, at the bottom of your emails where you used to write, you know, please excuse any spelling errors. Now we're going to be like, if you see spelling errors, no, it's been written by a human. I think humans are going to have to prove they're human more than ever to prove the authenticity and realness behind it. Because everything we're consuming now is questionable whether it's AI or not. And I do think humans will question that to a point and still crave the human interactions. So as well as I do believe you need to get on board with AI and use it, which we do all the time. I do think that we do need to look at how we can maintain our humanness within what's going on in the world.
- [62:47]
A
You're completely right. I think it's very hard to know what's human and what's not on a lot of these platforms. I just watched a horse jump out of an airplane on Instagram with a parachute on its back and then half the comments were going, this is cruel. And the other half was saying, I'm amazed anyone thinks this is anything other than AI.
- [63:06]
B
Do you know what? Now you've talked about it, I will get served up that same concept when I leave here.
- [63:11]
A
You probably will if your phone's there. But it's sort of. Yeah, but it's very hard to know what's real and what's not and what's human and what's not. So you're saying that the key to this is to be able to make people aware that you're real and human?
- [63:24]
B
100%. What's better than that?
- [63:26]
A
Nothing. I agree. So, fantastic. Thank you very much. Keep human. Let's keep it that way.
- [63:31]
B
Yeah.
- [63:31]
A
I'm fully supportive of that message. So always at the end of my conversations, Francesca asks the same two questions.
- [63:41]
B
Yeah.
- [63:42]
A
The first is because at Reid, we love Mondays. The first question is, what gets you up on a Monday morning?
- [63:48]
B
Oh, what gets me up on a Monday morning is usually the optimism I have for my week. I kind of get excited not knowing what's around the corner and I'm full of hope. And then I get to Thursday afternoons about now and I'm thinking, oh, I'm a bit weary. I've only got one day left of this week. Did everything I thought might happen happen this week?
- [64:11]
A
I'm not sure there's still time left.
- [64:13]
B
Yes, I'm highly optimistic on a Monday and I get super excited. I love getting up early. I hit Pilates. Usually it's like sort of 6:37 and kind of really, really go out my day with. Yes, huge amounts of optimism.
- [64:27]
A
Very good. And lastly, and this is a question from my interview, but why you? Where do you see yourself in five years time?
- [64:36]
B
Five years time, Gosh. I see myself still doing what I'm doing now, but hopefully having brought on more team members, supporting more people in their endeavors to be successful on the back of what I'm building and creating a really good camaraderie in our office and team and people with that right vision that hopefully after my 10 years of practicing for my next 10 years, I may have just sussed it out.
- [65:08]
A
A bit more and yeah, you'll be halfway through your next 10.
- [65:11]
B
I hopefully have got it right by five years time.
- [65:13]
A
You just keep improving, I'm sure.
- [65:16]
B
Keep improving, keep learning.
- [65:17]
A
Keep him.
- [65:17]
B
Keep improving, keep learning. I'm way off nailing any of this yet. I definitely have more in me. I think when I'm 50, there'll be something else that's going to pop up, which I'm excited for.
- [65:26]
A
Sure. I mean, we're all, we're all learning and changing all the time. There's so much new thing. There's so much that's new and unknown.
- [65:33]
B
That's why it's exciting.
- [65:35]
A
Exactly.
- [65:35]
B
Yeah.
- [65:36]
A
Thanks for coming to talk to me.
- [65:37]
B
Thank you so much.
- [65:38]
A
Pleasure.
- [65:40]
B
Thank you.
- [65:43]
A
Francesca, thank you for joining me on All About Business and for sharing such a clear view of where branding, talent and technology are headed. I'm your host, James Reid, Chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to learn more about Reed or GTN Consultancy, you'll find all the links in the show notes. See you next time.