B (2:44)

That's correct, yeah.

A (2:45)

How does that happen? So even if it's a little a penny or two, it still counts?

B (2:50)

Yeah. So exact work with over 2,000 brands, so the likes of like Amazon, Tesco, ZDA, Sainsbury, John Lewis and Boots, I mean, the list really goes on and it varies from brand to brand. But for imagine you're grocery shopping because that's something that people do every week and a, and a family would typically spend, you know, easily 100 to 200 pounds a week on, on the, on groceries and everyone's got to like live to eat. So it's an essential piece of spending. So you go into, say, you know, Tesco's and you type in, say £126. If that's what your, your shop came to you, you press pay now in the app one tap and essentially get like a barcode which instead of paying by your card, you scan the barcode and instantaneously you get money into your Sprive account and in the app one tap and that money goes straight to your mortgage. And the great thing about that is as you start to use the app, you can start to then visually see how much interest you're on track to save, how many years you're on track to knock off. So you might start and you might see in the app, oh, I'm on track to pay off my mortgage three months earlier. And the more you use it, five months, six months, we've got customers using.

A (3:50)

Sort of Freedom Day comes closer.

B (3:52)

We've got customers like, there's a recent customer who posted on social media and she's on track to save 84,000pounds in interest and not 14 years off her mortgage. I mean, there aren't many apps anywhere that can have that much.

A (4:04)

She must be quite a big spender to have done that.

B (4:06)

No, so, so we have a second feature as well. So the shopping really kind of adds up. And some of our customers are putting like 25 to 70 pounds just by kind of doing the everyday shopping. But then also we have a spare cash feature. So this is where, I don't know if you're familiar with auto saving apps where you can like scroll away spare cash. And so you link your current account and then we look at your spending and you can set a limit. So you might say, I can afford anywhere between a pound and 25 pounds a month. You know, others who are more affluent might say, I can afford anywhere between 200 and £400amonth. And then we work within those limits. And so say, for example, like, we just went through Christmas. Most people spend a lot of money during this time on presents and Christmas dinner. We might then set aside a lot less money compared to like weeks and months where they're, where they're saving and essentially spending less. And then with one tap, again, that money can go towards your mortgage. So the shopping is a great way to get started because everyone spends. With the cost of living crisis, it's obviously very tough for, for people, but everyone has to, has to, has to shop. And so that, that just makes a huge impact and be able to just constantly chip away.

A (5:12)

Right. And you said there was a third, so we've got two channels.

B (5:17)

There's a third feature as well, which is helping people refinance. So we scan the market every day for better mortgage deals. And if it can help you find a better mortgage deal, we'll essentially help you, help you get that with combining kind of tech with free advice.

A (5:31)

Wow. So this sounds to me like you must have done a huge amount of work to get this set up. I mean, all these relationships with these big companies, Amazon Boots or the retailers, and the technology behind it. Yeah, a substantial investment, I'm guessing.

B (5:46)

Yeah. I mean, we support 14 of the top lenders in the UK, so we cover 85% of the residential mortgage market. So if you have a mortgage with, say, Barclays and Tanda, NatWest, HSBC, all the, all the big lenders we support, obviously that takes time. And then we work with over 2000 brands and again, that takes time. It took me a while when I initially was building the product to convince some of these brands to work with Sprove. So it's been, I've been doing, doing this for six years. So it's, it's, it does take time and it does take capital investment as well.

A (6:16)

Who were harder to convince, the banks or the brands?

B (6:19)

I would say the, the lenders is more challenging because they're bigger organizations. And if you think about it historically, especially mortgage mortgages, lenders make a lot of money for mortgages and paying off, you know, they don't necessarily want you to pay off. People paying off their mortgage sometimes makes.

A (6:38)

It a little awkward.

B (6:39)

It kind of erodes their income and P and L and so You've got to like, you know, sometimes you get.

A (6:43)

A penalty if you pay it off too soon.

B (6:45)

Yeah, no, that's right. And so we help with that as well. Through the app, you can track how much of your allowance you've used. But that was the, that was the challenging piece. But lenders understand and I can go into more detail while lenders work with us, but it's around finding common ground and once you, once you're able to do that, you know, we're finding now that more and more lenders are now coming to us and asking us how we can kind of join Spry, which is, which is nice.

A (7:09)

So what I, what I like about what you said as well is Sprive is free of charge to the user.

B (7:14)

Completely free. Yeah.

A (7:15)

So what's your business model and how, where do you make an income for yourself? Because every company has to support its cost basis.

B (7:22)

Yeah, I suppose the, the easiest way to kind of understand it is if you think about cashback companies like Top Cashback in Quidco, very traditional cashback companies. And then you think about how they make money. So in every, every shop we take a cut. So we provide a discount. We get that funded by the merchants.

A (7:40)

I see. So some of the cash back goes to you and some of it goes to your cash.

B (7:44)

Most of it will go to the customer, but we'll take a.

A (7:46)

What's the split?

B (7:47)

Yeah, I'm not going to explain, I'm not going to say that because it varies from brand to brand.

A (7:51)

It varies from brand to brand. Okay, but you are saying most of.

B (7:54)

It goes to that, but most of it does.

A (7:55)

That's more than 50%?

B (7:56)

Yeah, more than 50%. And it's like what we build is, it's obviously not just the cashback app. We're connecting to people's bank accounts into the lenders.

A (8:06)

There's a lot of trust involved here.

B (8:07)

A lot of trust. There's a lot of technology that's involved and that's obviously, that's very expensive. For every payment we, we process and we process, you know, someone's shopping in an app every three seconds. So it's, the engagement is very, very high. But all of that costs, costs money we have to do like anti money laundering checks. And, and so obviously if we, if we're not sustainable, we want to keep it free. But it's funded by the, by the, the merchants and that's consistent with all cashback brands.

A (8:34)

And so it's the shopping that actually makes it viable.

B (8:37)

And then the second part is things like think about comparison sites. So you know, you sell like they sell car insurance and they sell home insurance and what are they? Energy switching? We would do all of that as well. But the difference is every time you do that you earn money towards your mortgage and just on the cash back. I think sometimes I speak to people and they're like, well, cash back towards your mortgage, how can that make a dent? But actually it's the benefits of compound interest because most people don't, aren't aware that lenders calculate interest daily. And so if you just take 100 pound grocery shop and say you earn 2 pounds 50 on that, on that grocery shop and that goes towards your mortgage, for the average person that has a three times multiplier effect once it goes onto a typical mortgage. And so you know, you end up saving between seven pound fifty to pound ten on one shop. And imagine you do that 52 times a year.

A (9:25)

And then because of the compounding, the.

B (9:27)

Compounding actually saves you a lot of money. And then obviously there's holidays and car insurance and home insurance all starts to, starts to add up. So you know, most homeowners, I'd say that our cash back rates are probably the most impactful when it comes to people's personal finances. It's just less than the actual money that is because it's effectively being invested in a manner that's ultimately tax free, which is, which is obviously good as well.

A (9:49)

What if doing good was the smartest business move you'll ever make? I'm James Reed, CEO of Reed. In my new book, Karma Capitalism, I reveal how being a Philco, that's a company where at least 10% of shares are owned by a charitable foundation, has become our business superpower. Companies like Lego, Ikea and Novo Nordisk share the same Filco identity. These businesses last longer, inspire loyalty and make a bigger impact on society. This book is part manifesto, part practical guide. Karma Capitalism is available now@karmacapitalism.org being a good business is good business. So I've got so many questions for you, but I mean, I'd quite like to just go back to your sort of origin story because I mean you're talking about compound interest. You're obviously a person of great financial literacy and financial literacy is an interesting issue in our society because I don't think that many people are well equipped with financial. But you obviously are and I know why, because you come from an entrepreneurial background, entrepreneurial family, and you worked at Goldman Sachs bank for 14 years, is that right?

B (11:01)

14 years.

A (11:02)

I can see you know, so in terms of background, you're sort of ideally prepared for this kind of business venture. So let's start with your family. I think it would be interesting because you mentioned to me earlier, before we started recording, that your grandfather was an entrepreneur in East Africa and your father was an entrepreneur. We just tell us a little bit about your family story because I think it's fascinating.

B (11:25)

Yeah, sure. So if you go back to, like my grandfather. So to give you some context, he grew up in rural India in a state called Gujarat, on a farm, and at 12 years old decided to leave the farm without his dad's blessing. So had a little bit of a disagreement and he went with his uncle to East Africa on a, on a boat to essentially start working. And he started working in construction as a, as a laborer very young. But these things, you know, happen. Was very common.

A (11:52)

As a 12 year old.

B (11:53)

Yeah, as a, as a 12 year old with his, his uncle and then started kind of picking up the trade. And he did that for a long time, but he obviously learned the trade very well and, you know, started to know people that were, in that, in that.

A (12:04)

Which country was this?

B (12:05)

This was in Kenya.

A (12:06)

Right.

B (12:07)

And essentially he then, in his early 30s, decided that he would start his own construction company and then use some of the people that he knew and then kind of get projects and, and do the work himself. And no, I mean, it was, it was great for him because obviously able to kind of build wealth and that in that wealth was enough for him to send India and give my dad, as an example, a very good education. And so my dad went to boarding school, grew up learning English in India, which at the time was only for, you know, people who are a little bit more affluent. And then my dad decided to come to the uk, literally with five pounds in his pocket, because he, you know, there was the opportunity to kind of do so. And again, when he first started, he didn't really, you know, have a lot of like, connections. It's very difficult to get a job. And I remember when I was very.

A (12:56)

Where did he go in the uk? Where did he live?

B (12:58)

So in London. So what they typically do is they find a house that they, someone's living there and they will just all kind of live there and bunk up until, you know, they can obviously afford their own place. And at the time, when I was very young, he had three jobs. So I remember him like Asda at the checkout doing, you know, doing, doing that. He was then kind of cleaning toilets and being a cleaner. And then he started his own business and he set up his own accountancy firm. And one of the things he did is because there was a lot of people that was in a similar position to him but didn't have the education that he had. So they struggled to do simple things like read letters in English.

A (13:38)

Right.

B (13:38)

And so he used that community to kind of help them and also use that network to kind of build his business and that was good enough for him. Then to give me, my brother a private school education and that allowed me to then obviously get a good university degree at the University of Warwick and that led to me getting internship at Common Sachs and then, then me of getting offered a position and then kind of progressing there for 14 years.

A (14:03)

So the Goldman Sachs experience, I imagine you learned a lot.

B (14:08)

Yeah, I mean it's.

A (14:09)

Has that been helpful for what you're doing now?

B (14:10)

Yeah, definitely. I mean I, I've got no bad word to say about the organization. It's a very tough place to work. They've got a very tough.

A (14:19)

In what way?

B (14:20)

In that like it's every, every year they'll, they'll cull the kind of the poorest performers. It can go up to like 10 to 20%. So that always kind of keeps you on your toes. I really.

A (14:31)

The Premier League if you're in the bottom.

B (14:33)

Yeah, yeah, that's a bit. And like the hiring process is very rigorous and you may hear stories but you know, sometimes you're doing seven to ten interviews to be able to get a role. And so the caliber of people that you're working with is, is, is really impressive. And I've always been of the mindset that I like being the best and so that pushes you and everyone around you is, is, is raid driven and there's a culture that people are prepared to, to go above and beyond. It's very common to work 70 hours, 100 hour weeks. And it's not just FaceTime. People are just trying to outperform and out deliver and that, that in itself, that environment has been very good for me. I think the other thing that I think about Goldman's is that they have a very entrepreneurial kind of environment. So they early at the early kind of doors, they really try to teach you and coach you to think about the business like it was your own and to try to come up with ideas and innovate within the organization and they reward people who think outside the box. And it's a very flat structure in that just because you're more junior doesn't mean you can't get responsibility and you.

A (15:38)

Can'T progress quickly and your ideas will.

B (15:40)

Be listening and your ideas but you've got to be able to maneuver through the organization and that's a challenge in itself. But if you can adjust and you have the self awareness, it's a very rewarding place.

A (15:53)

So you'd recommend a stint at Goldman Sachs to a would be entrepreneur of the future. Future, would you?

B (15:58)

Look, I say if you want to be an entrepreneur then there's no better way than actually being an entrepreneur. But you might find that you might make some more mistakes I think with the like I've always, when, when I was at university I wanted to start my own business but I just didn't have the acumen, I didn't have the idea. I, I just didn't know how to go about it. And so I, I fell into, into that career and I did tell myself at the time, remember when I was at university, I said I'll do this for two, three years, build up some experience and then start my own business. But you then get sucked in. You get, you get, you're chasing the promotions and then 14 years later, you know, I was still there.

A (16:34)

Well, I imagine you're well paid. I mean it was a good life.

B (16:36)

It gets harder, it gets harder and harder as you progress because the way it's a very big bonus culture there. So if you're, if you're a poor performer, you know it because your bonus is zero. Or it's very much like why did I spend all these hours and, and sweat and tears? I'm kind of pushing myself and it's a kind of a signal you should leave otherwise we're going to like push you out of the.

A (16:59)

So if you get zero bonus, the.

B (17:01)

Writings on the wall, the writing's effectively on the wall but if you, if you perform well they, they pay you well. And so it does become harder and harder. And I think for myself I'm not so obviously everyone likes money but I'm not so driven by money. For me it was legacy. Like I take a step back and my grandfather, if he hadn't done what he'd done and make, made those brave moves, if he had listened to his father when and not then make the bold step from everyone around him, carried on being laborers and he started, you know, had the bravery to effectively take risk and start his own construction business and like, like, like my dad, if he hadn't done what he did then my life would have been very different. And so I want to have a legacy too. I Don't want to be the, the dud in the, in the, in the, in the, in the kind of the. When you look at the generational, the.

A (17:51)

Generation, I can understand that anxiety.

B (17:54)

And so, and so you're making good progress. Not to be by the side, exactly, but for me, it was, for me that was the driver. I didn't, I. I feel like you only live once and I wanted to leave a legacy and my mindset changed when I had children. So I've got two young boys now and I want to show them that anything's possible. And my dad showed me and my grandfather showed me through the way they lived and the things they did that anything's possible. And so I want to do the same for my boys.

A (18:18)

Yeah, well, it sounds like you'll be a very inspiring father for them. I mean, so you were, you were at Goldman Sachs and you've been there for a while and then you, I imagine you had this idea because at some point while you were there, near the end of the 14 years, you decided to sort of branch out on your own. So what, what triggered that decision? How did that come about? And, yeah, and then you, you made that courageous step, you know, like your father and grandfather yourself, which, you know, a lot of people might be thinking about and then maybe do, maybe don't, but you did it. So talk me through that a little bit, please.

B (18:50)

Yeah, sure. So, I mean, when I've, when I've, when I was there and you'd go out after work, you. It happens quite a lot that you have a few beers and you'd be talking to colleagues about a business idea or, you know, just the idea of doing something. Because through, through the kind of the role that we did, you would actually meet quite a lot of entrepreneurs. Goldman Sachs, for example, has a private wealth division and a lot of the clients are entrepreneurs. And so you do see that people that taken risks have, have done, you know, some of them have done very well for themselves. So there's always that kind of itch. And then. But in reality, I wasn't ever really seriously looking to do my own thing. What happened was a colleague of mine that I used to work with grabbed me one day and said, you know, she want to go for a beer? And I said, yeah, sure, let's invite, you know, the team. And he was, I know, just me and you. And I was like, okay, this is a bit strange. And we went to a pub that normally no one, like none of our colleagues ever go to.

A (19:46)

So, so he didn't want to be overheard.

B (19:48)

He didn't want to be overhead. And he basically said that, look, he's. He's decided to leave Goldman's and he's going to start his own business. And to. To give you some context, his great grandfather was the king of Hyderabad. So in the 1940s, was the, literally the richest man in the world. And his whole family are entrepreneurs. And so for him, he. It was always on the cards to essentially start his own business, all his family entrepreneurs. So when he told me, I was like, okay. And he was like, I had this idea that we should do something together. For some reason, he felt that I'd be a good person to go in business with. And so the first question I asked him was, so what's the, what's the idea? Because I don't really have an idea. I just know that we should do something together. And because I always like the idea of doing something, we literally, after work, sit in the cafeteria and get our laptops out and brainstorm business ideas. And we started in the summer of 2018, and then we came up the idea for Sprive in about November. So literally during that process, we had ideas after ideas. And as we start to validate the ideas very quickly, it became apparent that his ideas weren't very good. And. And surprise was essentially idea number five or six. And that's the one where we started to really kind of get excited about. And then, yeah, nine months later, we, I. I left.

A (21:06)

So you did. So are you doing that together then? Is he an investor?

B (21:10)

He's my partner. Yeah.

A (21:11)

Right. So that's good. So. So it's interesting you just decided you were going to do something before you had the idea.

B (21:17)

Yeah, so we were going to.

A (21:18)

Almost the first decision was, we want to branch out.

B (21:20)

And yes, the idea was we like the idea of it. He was definitely going to leave.

A (21:24)

Yeah.

B (21:25)

So we then were like, I'm not leaving a good job until I'm very, very sure. And so, you know, five months to come up with the idea, but really being really intentional about finding an idea. And then once we came up with the idea for Surprive, conceptually, in, like, in November, it was only until July the following year that I actually resigned and handed in my notice.

A (21:44)

So you're talking July 2019.

B (21:47)

Yeah, July 2019. And the time spent was really me actually understanding, would this actually work? Could I actually build it? Having conversations with investors, people in the mortgage industry, understanding what technology I needed to build because I needed to believe for myself, because I have a family and the good thing, the good thing that I had done, which kind of ties back to, you know, why I started surprised. I had paid off my mortgage and I've been very fortunate, but I'd gone through that journey and I did it very aggressively.

A (22:17)

Goldman Sachs.

B (22:18)

Yeah, but obviously that, that salary helped. But we did it very aggressively in four years. But that was the only reason why I could go to my wife and say, hey, look, I've got this crazy idea. I want to kind of leave this kind of corporate job and, and, and, and do this. I think if I.

A (22:30)

What was her reaction?

B (22:31)

I mean, she wasn't happy. She wasn't happy because I, she was pregnant.

A (22:36)

Yeah, well, it's a bit unsettling, I imagine. And the crazy idea sort of sounds.

B (22:40)

Exciting, but maybe she's, she's, she's an accountant, very risk averse.

A (22:43)

Okay.

B (22:44)

And I told her that she would never have to work again because we were, we'd paid off the mortgage, we just started a family. And so I had to kind of sheepishly go to her and say, look, you know that I told you you never have to work again. I need you to go back to work because I really want to do this. I said she had to go back to work.

A (23:03)

Yeah, but that's a good thing about being an accountant. I would stress you can always get a job.

B (23:08)

Yeah, that's very true. But she, she went part time. That was the, that was the, that was the compromise. And I said, don't worry, in a year I'll be earning a salary again. Took me four years. So you. Four, 24 years to earn a salary.

A (23:20)

So. But she was obviously patient.

B (23:21)

Yeah, she's been, she's been fantastic supportive.

A (23:24)

Which is really important.

B (23:25)

It's really important.

A (23:26)

Yeah, so, so, so that would, so I'm just thinking back 2019, obviously what happened next was the pandemic, which must have been very disruptive to your plans because you said it took you four years before you were able to get a salary. So we thought, we have to go to 2023. What, what were the consequences of all that disruption?

B (23:44)

Yeah, it wasn't ideal. You kind of take the biggest risk and then suddenly the kind of pandemic happens. And obviously that was a very prolonged episode in people's lives and I was very keen a, to not launch the, the product and the app during, during the pandemic. I just felt like it wasn't the right time. We were a slightly different app during, when we launched. We didn't have the shopping part of the app. We Just had the spare cash feature that I, that I mentioned earlier. And when you people are worried about their kind of jobs and their livelihood, the last thing they're going to do is start to overpay on their mortgage. And so we paused and then we also think about Runway, because with the tech company, you've got people that to pay every, every month. And started looking at the numbers going, okay, how long is this going to last? Because if it, if it lasts much longer, we're going to run out of money. And so I had to like hire a new team. We were using kind of third party agencies initially, and then we had to find creative ways to like bring that in house and, and find some interesting ways to like, like prolong our Runway. And then. Yeah, so it was, it was definitely an interesting, interesting time. It was a curveball that I.

A (24:50)

Were there any positives in terms of it giving you time to think about the service? And I mean, you obviously added extra business lines during that time and developed the offer through the app.

B (24:59)

Yeah, no, actually we did that afterwards. So after Covid, we launched. So I suppose the one thing we did. And so my business partner that I mentioned, he reads a lot of books and he's very, very much a product guy. And when you read these books, a lot of them say, when you start a business, build your mvp, your minimum viable product. And so he was like, we need to build this. He wants to build like a really basic version of the, of the app. In my head, I had a picture of what the app should be and had a lot more technology, a lot more automation. But he pushed quite hard and I kind of caved in and said, okay, we'll build it. And my suspicions were right in that no one wanted that app. It was too much friction, too much work for the, for the customer.

A (25:47)

Wasn't viable.

B (25:47)

It wasn't viable. But it took us nine months to build that and we spent money on it. The good thing is that I'm quite frugal. So we didn't. You know, I kind of say if you make mistakes, try not to make big mistakes that completely blow you out of the water. But because we made that, there were positives as well in that we learned about what works and what doesn't work and we've got to test some of the functionality.

A (26:10)

What's the purpose of those?

B (26:11)

But, but, yeah, exactly. But it gave cover to give us more time to be able to then build and iterate and then build the right version. So that once Covert ended in October 2021 we actually publicly launched and that version in the first, I'd say day that we launched, we got an article from the this is Money. And the, the headline was something like the UK's first mortgage overpayment app. Is it any good? And we literally on the first day at 2, 000 people download the app. And so that was like, nice.

A (26:41)

Yeah.

B (26:42)

And so, yeah, sometimes these power of communication. Yeah, sometimes these things all happen. It's just, I, I, it's just so funny how like luck sometimes does play a part. For sure.

A (26:51)

I would agree with that. Luck's very important.

B (26:53)

Yeah.

A (26:53)

But so is preparation.

B (26:55)

Yes.

A (26:56)

I say that's when you get lucky. You developed this app. It's interesting because often people say, you know, start small, start with a minimum viable product. I mean, I've heard that from other guests. But you recognize it required more development and complexity to deliver the service you wanted to deliver. So you took a bigger risk in a sense doing it the way you did. How did you finance that? I mean, because what we're talking about here, building apps is not cheap. I know. Because we do it ourselves and especially complex ones that have friction free offers. So I'm confident you must have put a lot of money as well as time into this endeavor.

B (27:36)

Yeah, I mean it's a fintech, we're registered with the fca, so there's a high bar there. It's not, it's not something you can just bootstrap, let's put it that way. So we invested our own money. So again, another risk there in terms of taking money from our savings and putting that into the business. And then just people that I knew in my network. So I never asked kind of what I call like a friends and family round was the initial kind of injection that we, that we got. And I never would ask friends or family for money. I would literally talk about what I'm doing and what I'm building and the fact that I'm leaving Goldman's to start this. And I started this while I was at Goldman Sachs. So I tell people this is what I'm doing on the side. And, and, and we, what I found is that people tend to get fomo. So as an example, we had someone that was quite high profile, like the former CFO of Microsoft US in India, who I kind of knew through my network. And I met him and I was telling him about what we're doing and he does angel investments and he was like, I like the idea of this, I might invest. So I started telling everyone that he's probably going to invest. And he had actually 100% committed, but everyone else was like, if he's going to invest, then I want to invest. And I went back to him and I said, look, we pretty much got all the money in. Are you going to come in? And he was like, yeah, yeah, sure. And so, so he did invest. Yeah, so he did invest. So, you know, these types of things kind of helped.

A (29:04)

And we didn't ask, but you just shared the information.

B (29:07)

Share the information. And people would come to me asking me, please, can I invest? Because they knew me, they knew, they knew I'd either work, worked with them or I'd gone to university with them or they were like members of my family and they just, they knew that, you know, they like to think I've got quite a sensible head on my, you know, and so I kind of would have thought this through. And they saw the excitement and they believed in what I was saying that they could see this kind of being, being, being very big. And so, yeah, they gave me money. And that kind of was that kind of initial investment. And that got you, that got us to like launch. And then once we launched, you know, with things like the first day, a couple of thousand people downloading the app, I then went to angel investors, so a little bit more professional investors and then they invested. And that was.

A (29:55)

So you had to put together a sort of presentation deck.

B (29:57)

Yeah, presentation financial model. And so I did that.

A (30:00)

Well, what advice would you give to people who are seeking angel investments?

B (30:04)

I think it's, it's all about the network and getting kind of warm introductions. It's super, is super key. So if you don't have that network, you need to, you need to build that network. And I, because, because I was at Goldman's, people automatically think that you have this whole huge network of, of angel investors. But that wasn't the, the case. I was, I was in the risk division, so I wasn't in, I wasn't a trader, I wasn't like a, an investment banker. And so by definition risk, people in risk generally are very risk averse. And so they.

A (30:38)

You'd hope so.

B (30:39)

Yeah, you'd hope so. So there wasn't like a lot of people I could tap on, so I had to build that network for, from scratch. And one of the things I did, for example, was post on LinkedIn every day and that was really helpful because.

A (30:51)

People about what you were doing, about.

B (30:53)

What I was doing every day, every day, Monday to Friday. And I would literally share my story. So if I'M doing something like this, you know, I take a picture and post that and if I was. Whatever it was. And so people started to feel like a real connection and they could, they could almost feel like they were living this journey.

A (31:11)

So interesting. It's so helpful to people just to know that.

B (31:13)

And, and a lot of people obviously knew me from, from, you know, my corporate days and a lot of people that are employees who work in corporates, they do have that itch that, you know, and I think a lot of them would do really well. I think we have so many talented people in the uk. It's just having that kind of, that, that bravery and taking that risk and it is a big risk. But those people would see and they would know people that know people and then introductions, they would be willing to help and then just network, meet people, meet people, meet people. And that helped, that helped a lot. And you tend to find with angels, they like to, they like to invest in groups. So if you find someone, they'll, and they invest, they'll then start to bring their friends over and that can be a real domino effect. So that worked really.

A (31:57)

They tend to be networked.

B (31:58)

Yeah, networks, exactly. And that worked really well. And then, and then I did one more round after that, which was in kind of, towards the, kind of the beginning of last year, and that was more institutional. So that was like feces. Venture capital.

A (32:12)

How much did you raise in that?

B (32:13)

So that was a.2 and a half million cash and then 3 million TV media for equity. So we now, for example, have a TV ad that's running on cross Channel 4. So Channel 4 Ventures also invested in Surprive. And the reason why I did that investment was to get more brand awareness.

A (32:29)

So hang on, so how did that work? So they give you air time?

B (32:31)

They give you airtime?

A (32:32)

Yeah, for equity.

B (32:33)

For equity.

A (32:34)

You're trading equity for airtime?

B (32:35)

That's right, yeah. Yeah.

A (32:36)

Interesting. And have they given you, I hope, a lot of air time?

B (32:39)

Yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a lot.

A (32:42)

And is it working as. Do you see, does advertising work in that respect? Yeah, I mean, getting you, getting it. Did it work as well as this is money?

B (32:49)

Yeah, this. Since, let's put it this way, since I closed that last round, we've been growing 30% month on month. So that's pretty strong. I'm pretty happy with that. So, yeah, we've been growing pretty rapidly.

A (33:01)

Did you do any other trades for equities? So you did Just the cash, which.

B (33:05)

Is obviously the two and a half million, and then the TV media. The TV media deal.

A (33:09)

Did you put a valuation on that?

B (33:11)

Yeah, there is a. There's a valuation. Yeah, that we. That we put. And then I'm actually going out to market now and doing another raise. Yeah. So we've grown pretty. Pretty substantially and we want to. We want to be more aggressive. There's 11 million homeowners in the UK that we can help, and so we want to. We want to kind of help. Help as many. As many people as possible. So, yeah, we're raising.

A (33:33)

We have big ambitions for sprive. So I understand that you went on Dragon's Den to raise some money.

B (33:39)

I did.

A (33:39)

You've just done this.

B (33:40)

Yeah.

A (33:41)

So what was that experience like?

B (33:42)

It was. It was interesting. So I've. I've watched Dragon's Den, like, since I was the age of 20.

A (33:48)

Yeah, it's like an institution.

B (33:50)

Like an institution.

A (33:51)

So we've watched it. But.

B (33:53)

And so to be on that show is. It was very surreal. I remember, like, watching the show and almost acting like, you know, as if I'm a Dragon and being like, that business is great, or that business, you know, how's that ever going to work? And. And it's. It's a great show because I do think it encourages entrepreneurship.

A (34:12)

I agree.

B (34:12)

And. And so. And so when I got the opportunity and I got an email in my inbox saying, would you like to apply? I was like, okay, yeah, why not? I. Generally, when I think of Dragons Den, I think of actual products, like, things that you can actually like, like touch and feel. And, you know, from memory, I can't remember seeing many apps on. On Dragons Den, but I went through a process. It was quite a rigorous process in.

A (34:37)

Terms of being selected.

B (34:37)

In terms of being selected, when you.

A (34:39)

Say quite rigorous, as in, like, it was.

B (34:43)

It was things like sending a video interview, like a video clip of yourself on camera doing the pitch. And then there was things like interviews over video calls where they. They interview you a few different times. And then there's a whole, like, diligence process on your business, because the BBC are very careful about, make sure everything that's said and everything you're saying is 100 accurate. The last thing they want is to kind of mislead the. The public.

A (35:10)

All the Dragons.

B (35:12)

All the Dragons, yeah. Because obviously they're. That's very true. Because they want to make sure that what you're saying is. Is completely fractured because ultimately they are going to invest their own. Their own capital if they decide to do so.

A (35:21)

Yeah, the BBC's facilitating this process. It's like the investment banker, in a sense, possible investors.

B (35:28)

Yeah, yeah. And so obviously it was really nice to then get. But get selected. And then they give you very short notice, or at least for me, they gave you very short notice in terms of going, okay, here's the studio date. You need to do your pitch.

A (35:42)

And so what you, the student. The date for the pitch was just suddenly like next week or something, like.

B (35:46)

Exactly. So very little time to prepare. And the actual pitch, you. You need to make sure you. You've memorized it. And because I'm in financial services, they're very like, they made sure that. They made it clear that I had to say what I prepared. I couldn't go off piece.

A (36:06)

Terms and conditions apply because I find myself saying on our ads quite a.

B (36:10)

Lot because it's very rigorous. They're very rigorous in terms of what, you know, they want to make sure everything that I said was completely, completely.

A (36:17)

So you managed to stick to the script.

B (36:19)

And so, yeah, so, yeah, when. If people watch it, I encourage a little bit on the iplayer. So, you know, have a. It's the second. It's the second. It's the second episode in the, in this. In this year's season to, to have a. Have a look. I don't want to give too many spoilers away. I think, oh, no, you won't be.

A (36:33)

Giving any away because it will have come out.

B (36:35)

That's very true.

A (36:36)

People can hear this.

B (36:37)

Yeah.

A (36:37)

But did it go well?

B (36:38)

Yeah.

A (36:39)

So I won't ask for details.

B (36:40)

But were you happy it went well? I think I was going to say, in terms of preparing for the pitch, I had my, My two young boys help me prepare. Because the way I kind of thought is that it's obviously a very stressful time. Like, you're in that, you're in that. You've got the cameras on you, you've got the lights. And so I kind of told them, like, while I'm doing the pitch, jump on me, like, shout at me that scream right here. And they did that and they really enjoyed it. But I made them part of that process. But if you can pitch when you've got two young boys, like pushing you and screaming in your hair, then you can. That's very good. You can definitely do it under the.

A (37:14)

So you knew I could do with this?

B (37:16)

Exactly. Like, you wouldn't. You wouldn't kind of get phased and, and, and, and be able to, like, deliver. And that was like the Keith for me, in terms of. I was in the studio for seven hours, so it was a really, really long day. I didn't realize you only watching it, you only see in a small snippet. And then I was actually in the actual Den part of the recording for about an hour and a half. And it was like a real investment pitch. They, they, the Dragons ask you a lot of questions and, and they're very, they're very cleared up. They. Because I've raised investment, I was very comfortable with the questions they asked. But yeah, it was very vigorous.

A (37:52)

So, I mean, they're investing their own money, so they're investing their own money.

B (37:55)

And also they do this and it's television, so they will throw curveballs. They will try to.

A (38:01)

Were there some surprises?

B (38:03)

Yeah.

A (38:03)

Did you get. What was the toughest question?

B (38:05)

So, I mean, it's. It was a while back, so I'm. But there were questions. One thing I was, that I had these red lines that I was trying not to talk about too much. So as an example, I. If they asked me about my background, I literally just wanted to say I work in financial services and I was trying to avoid the fact that I, you know, that I work at Goldman Sachs as an example, because why. In the past I've had like, I've done some press and you. The comment section, you know, people compare me to like Rishi Sunak and like, you know, and so don't read the comments section unless it's a.

A (38:41)

About someone else.

B (38:42)

Yeah, I know, exactly. But so, yeah, sometimes people can see that as a good thing because financial services. And they probably want someone who, you know, who's had that background, so that. Because they're obviously trusting, trusting, you know, surprive with, with their, with their. One of their largest household commitments. But it can also backfire.

A (39:00)

So you didn't want that to come out.

B (39:01)

Yeah, but did it come out? So, I mean, I don't, I don't. I don't know. I haven't seen it yet. So. Yeah, so I see it at the same time. Time. I see it the same.

A (39:10)

So you don't know what they've left in them, taken out?

B (39:12)

I have no idea. Yeah, so that's interesting. So I'll see it when everyone else sees it.

A (39:16)

Yeah, but you put seven hours of your time into what will be a few minutes of television.

B (39:20)

Yeah, exactly 10, 15 minutes. I remember at the end of the process, I walked down, I was so drained, like mentally, I was so tired because it's, it's very intense, quite emotional. Yeah. And they lock you in like a little room. They don't really like, get you to talk to, you know, any. And you can't really bring anyone in.

A (39:35)

Is that called the green room?

B (39:36)

Yeah, the green room, exactly.

A (39:37)

I don't know what they call it.

B (39:38)

They're never green and they, they get you to makeup and things that you'd normally never do, so.

A (39:43)

Exactly, yeah.

B (39:44)

So interesting sprints for sure.

A (39:45)

So you found it interesting. Is it something you'd recommend to other entrepreneurs?

B (39:49)

I really enjoyed it. I mean there was a couple that I did bump into in the green room for like literally 45 seconds and they were literally shaking. They were so nervous. There were a couple, I don't know how they got on but, but you know, the nerves can really build up. I think if you're, if you're not careful, you can kind of get into your head. But, but luckily I was able to stay calm and I really, actually really enjoyed the experience. It was nice.

A (40:13)

Yeah. I think it's quite important to try and enjoy things like that even if they're sort of new and familiar because I think the energy able to demonstrate comes over, you know.

B (40:25)

Exactly. I think, I think, I think hopefully that comes across on camera, but I came out of it really enjoying the experience. There's no regrets, for sure.

A (40:34)

Oh, good luck with that.

B (40:35)

No, thank you.

A (40:36)

I'll be watching.

B (40:37)

Yeah, yeah.

A (40:38)

So, so, yeah, so you're really in sort of fast growth mode with your business. I mean you're, you're moving from startup to scale up, it seems. Is that a fair description?

B (40:48)

That's probably fair, yeah.

A (40:49)

And, and, and that brings challenges of its own, doesn't it?

B (40:52)

It does.

A (40:52)

So you have to hire more people. So where are you in that journey now? And.

B (40:56)

Yeah.

A (40:57)

What's on your mind, Janesh?

B (40:58)

So after the last round we had the team, but then we needed to look at the team and look at where the gaps were and how we could, you know, know, make, take things to the next level. And so we did hire, we hired in all areas of the business. And I'm, because of my days at Goldman's, I was very used to hiring. I, I started managing teams probably when I was about 24. I'm quite early in my, in my, in my career and so I've always known the power of hiring good people, hiring good people, ultimately even my corporate career make me look good and make me be able to kind of outperform and so, so that's, that's been super key.

A (41:34)

So what do you look for? You're looking for good people. Give me a bit more detail.

B (41:37)

Yeah, so I think, yeah, so I'm quite. I go off gut quite a bit. But we try to, yeah, gut feel is quite important to me. But what I initially do is I'll have a process, so I'll interview them and the first half an hour I typically, obviously I see their CV and I, in my mind, depends on the role, but I have an idea of the caliber of kind of person that I'm looking for. So let me take an example, like marketing hype hire. So I wanted to hire someone to run marketing and I wanted someone who had consumer fintech app experience. So what I did is I made a list of that in the last three to five years, all the consumer apps in the uk, in the personal finance space that essentially had done well and grown really, really aggressively. And then I wanted to find someone who had been through that growth period for at least, you know, and work there for at least three years. And so once you get that universe of like apps and then you get that kind of criteria, you're really narrowing down the.

A (42:38)

So you're very precise in that example.

B (42:40)

I was very background, very, very precise.

A (42:42)

And how did you find them from there, though?

B (42:44)

I used the. I used the recruiter in that. In that example. And then I hired a product person as an example.

A (42:50)

You used an agent.

B (42:50)

I use an agency. And then for a product hire that I did. Did I. I did both. So I did agency and I also did a LinkedIn job post. And on LinkedIn, it was crazy. The number of applications that I got was massively overwhelming. But there was only one person that actually sent me an individual message, connected with me, sent me an individual message and then had like this.

A (43:19)

Only one person did that.

B (43:20)

Only one person did that.

A (43:21)

But this thing there, people, if you want to get a job, that's quite a good.

B (43:25)

So he, he did also had like media, like in. Is it Medium, where you have like loads and loads of like content about product. And so you could tell he was someone who's really passionate. He had amazing design portfolio, but also he was talking about you could just see realms and realms of content over the last like 15 years that he'd been putting out in the ether. And so straight away I could see through his LinkedIn, through, through just the Medium kind of. I think it's called Medium. It's like a, a platform where you can like, share your like, like your leadership and your thoughts and your work. And. And you could see he loved product. And so then I Was like, okay, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll interview him. And when I interviewed him, I was, in my head, I wanted to give him the job in my, on the, on the spot. But what we tend to do is also give people a task. And I try to make it awkward. So I'll do things, I like doing things that most people would not do. So it'd be like a, I'll give them like a little task to do. I might even tell them to do, do a second round interview in that task on a weekend. And so if they're, if they can't be, if they don't want the job that much, then they're not gonna really be the person for me. And so like, I just try, I try to see how, what sort of.

A (44:37)

Task, I mean, I've got the, the Apprentice in my mind.

B (44:42)

So for like product, I'd essentially say, go look at my app.

A (44:45)

Right?

B (44:45)

And this is what we do. And if the, if the objective is to get more people to download the app and do their first shop, as an example, because when you download an app, a lot of people browse, but they don't actually start using the product. And what we found for the data is once you start, it's something that you really incorporate as part of your life and then it becomes regular, regular, a regular habit. But the, the biggest challenge with anything like an app is how many apps do you download? And they just sit dormant, right? You want people to like, engage. So I said, this is what we currently have. And look, I designed the app, me and my, my partner, and we're both from Goldman's, we're not product designers. We've just been making things up as we go along and using kind of, you know, our common sense, where possible. What would you do? Right now, some people, what they'll say when you ask people is that they get very upset. They're like, you're basically asking me to do free work. And they would just either refuse or they'll do something, but it'd be very like high level. And it just, there won't be a lot of effort put into it. The people that really want the job will put a lot of effort. And I, and when I do the first one interview, I spend half the interview convincing them why this is. This. Getting, accepting a job at Spribe is going to change their life. And so I do a lot of that. And then the second half is where I, I really start to interview them. And so if that, if that, if that doesn't convince them to then put some real thought and hours into. Into. Into the project and then present. Then you just know that they're not going to have the.

A (46:11)

That's very interesting. I mean, because that's an interesting mindset issue. Oh, you're just trying to get me to do some work for free versus what If I put a lot of effort into this, I'll get the job and I'll have made a good start. Yeah, I've already made some progress.

B (46:23)

Yeah. Yeah.

A (46:24)

Which is another way of looking at it.

B (46:25)

Exactly. And then the final thing that I always do, I then get the team to make sure culturally is a good fit because.

A (46:32)

So the team are part of the team.

B (46:33)

Yeah. Because for me it's very important that people get on. On and that there's this, like, I've been, I've been in an environment like, you know, like a corporate run like Goldman's where there's all sorts of people, but when you're small, you want a really nice environment because if one or two people don't get on, it can become really toxic. And so for me, just people that are easy to work with, that was kind of very important. So I wanted to make sure all the entire team had this kind of warm, fuzzy feeling about new individuals kind of joining and that they, they felt like they could work with them. That was super important to me as well.

A (47:05)

I'm imagining listening to you though, Janesh, that your business model is. Doesn't require you to have a huge team.

B (47:11)

Yes, we have 16.

A (47:12)

16. And in a way, you know, as you grow the company, the upside of this potentially is that, you know, the income could outpace the costs.

B (47:21)

Yeah.

A (47:22)

Quite substantially in the future.

B (47:23)

Already we're like cash flow. We're like in November we were like cash flow positive. So we're trying to really create a sustainable business. There are a lot of fintech apps out there that spend a lot of money and I've seen it time and time again with founders who get a lot of venture money and they balloon their teams to like 100 headcount when they're making like 1 or 2 million pounds in revenue. And it just doesn't make any kind of business sense. And they're almost trying to grow into that headcount. I don't feel that's the right way to do business. So we do things quite differently. And then you've got AI and the power of AI is just incredible. And so I'm just amazed around just what it can do.

A (48:04)

And so you're embracing.

B (48:05)

And so we're really embracing that too. Yeah.

A (48:09)

So looking forwards, I mean, you talked about legacy. Yeah. How would you like the sort of next chapter to sort of evolve for you and your business? What's your. So, you know, if you're visualizing the future for Spry and yourself.

B (48:23)

Yeah.

A (48:24)

So what would you like that to look like?

B (48:25)

So I like to be the Go to app for homeowners. I think if you take a step back and you think about a homeowner, there's three core parts of their life. There's obviously their debt, their mortgage. In particular, there's their spending. So their everyday shopping, which we, you know, we play a big part. And then there's the saving. And again, we can help people save. And we want to create like saving pots that earn interest and maybe the interest can help you overpay your mortgage. And. And so I feel like if we can tackle those core three parts of someone's life, then that just gives us a lot of opportunity to do good for that, for that individual and help them in essentially become kind of debt free faster and get some of that life back. And so that's kind of really important. I kind of ask some of our customers, like, what would you do if you're mortgage free? And they. You can literally see their eyes light up. I'd quit my job. I'd go part time or I'd do, you know, spend more time with family or go traveling. And so we want to help more and more people. There's 11 million homeowners in the UK, so. So we're about 100,000 customers active. So a long way to go in terms of. In terms of helping more people. And then in terms of beyond that, people have student loans, credit cards.

A (49:31)

Yeah, the student loan thing is a big issue.

B (49:33)

It's a big issue. Yeah. So in my head, like, we, you know, that's something that I'm kind of keen to like, help people on. Globally, there's a billion people with some form of household debt. So there's just a lot of people that we can help. So I think the sky's the limit is the way I see it. And I'm very driven. I feel very energized. I don't feel like what I'm doing now is work. I get to do fun things like this. And, you know, it's. It's nice, it's good.

A (49:58)

Well, I can, I can feel your enthusiasm for what you do and, and that's infectious. So. Yeah. Well, that I wish you every success with That I suppose that I'm thinking that the team you put around you is going to be critical to your future success. How. What sort of skills are you looking to complement your own own?

B (50:18)

Yeah, and it's a good question. So I think it's. I'm a big fan of like fan of delegating and trying to make sure you've got clarity of thought. I think if you, if you get drowned in the, in the detail, it's really difficult to kind of steer the ship. And so I'm. And that I learned that through my corporate days. And so delegating is very, very key. I think at the moment my team is very, very strong. I think as we add like more things in the app. App, that's when I think we'll probably start to look at like hiring new, new heads. But I'll be very thoughtful about it. So my head, for example, we, we have, we help people refinance and at the moment we do that with a partner. But over time I like to have my own kind of mortgage experts in house and so I can see us kind of really building out that, that, that that's that part of the organization and kind of be a good business line. Maybe we'll get into like insurance. Again, I don't know much about insurance and so it might make sense to have someone who's got a lot of experience within the insurance space who knows we might, you know, help in, in people's pensions and we. So I think it all depends on how we take the business forward and then where, where my skill gap is and then we'll look for the best people in that space and I'm pretty persuasive. Or convince them to.

A (51:37)

Well, someone said to me, you know, find good people and let them get on with it.

B (51:41)

Exactly.

A (51:42)

I mean once you've set the direction in terms of your delegation.

B (51:45)

Yeah, exactly. But I think it's very. About very. Being very thoughtful. I think there's two ways you can hire. You can either hope and just do like and let them come to you or you can go and approach the people that you want. And I always feel like if you're, if you're more, if you have more intent in your hiring, the outcome is like is likely going to be better. I also use my network so if I do hire someone, I'll ask people like who do you know in this space that you think would be good? And I try to try to de. Risk it as much as possible. The other thing I tend to do and I haven't had to do this, but I have done it in my corporate career is if you know someone very quickly when you hire them, if you've done a bad hire, just try to address the situation pretty quickly.

A (52:29)

Because by which you mean exit them.

B (52:31)

Yeah, because otherwise it just. It just. If you, if you. If you. If you got it wrong, then just do something about it quickly is better for both parties, is what I would say. But we've. We've been very lucky. We've not had to do that since I started. Surprise.

A (52:45)

Hope is not a strategy, I like to say.

B (52:48)

Exactly.

A (52:50)

You have to have intent.

B (52:51)

You gotta have intent.

A (52:52)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I wish you every success with your business, which it sounds to me could go in any number of exciting directions. And I'll watch it with great interest in the future and hopefully maybe one day get you back in the studio, Janesh, so you can tell us about your journey through the next chapter.

B (53:13)

Yeah, happy to.

A (53:13)

Sure. Will be. Very interesting. I always ask two questions at the end of Hit Me, my podcast, and they're always the same. The. The first one, and because at Reed, we love Mondays is what gets you up on a Monday morning.

B (53:30)

So the first thing, if I'm honest, is doing the school run. So. So that. That has to. Has to be done. And then I actually do like a PT training session. So I. When I was building the business, I didn't really look after myself and I was eating badly, putting on weight, and it got to a stage where I just turned 40 and, you know, I started to kind of see signals that if I don't look after myself, that could. That could not be good for me. So I do that and that's a really nice way to kind of get my head in the. In the. In the right frame. And then after that, I meet the team and we set the agenda for the. For the. For the week so that all my whole leadership team know exactly what I'm expecting meeting, and that allows me to then kind of focus on what I need to do. And I'm kind of comfortable that the leaders in my organization, I clearly like the clear direction, clear accountability. And then obviously I can touch in different points throughout the week, but it just really allows me to. To kind of hit the week with the. With the. With a. With a bang. I also have this, like, this. This routine of like, creating a to do list that for the. For the week and what's urgent and what's important. And I'm a big fan of crossing things off. And so Monday is all about Getting, getting myself mentally in the right place and getting organized and, and then. Yeah. Making each day count.

A (54:51)

Yeah, well, I think that's important. Monday is a very important day of the week. But I, I'm reflecting what you just said. I remember when I had turned 40, I had a bit of an epiphany. I remember thinking it's either fit or fat at this point and I wanted to make sure it was a four former, not the latter. Something about that age.

B (55:07)

Yeah.

A (55:08)

And I think energy is so important in business and, and keeping fit is actually necessary if you're going to have good energy in the workplace.

B (55:15)

It makes a huge difference.

A (55:16)

It does, yeah. And then my last question, and it's in my interview book, why you 101 questions you'll never fear again is where do you see yourself in five years time?

B (55:27)

Yeah, sure. So obviously we talked about where I kind of want to build bribe and I think like you said, the opportunity is endless and so for that hopefully we can make thrive and really help a lot of people. Because I feel like if you think about fintech and financial services, I think the whole kind of industry is trying to get people into debt. They make money, a lot of them make money from making that happen. And I think there needs to be someone that's trying to get people out of debt and we're doing that. And so that's something that obviously I want to kind of continue to build out beyond that. It's interesting. I've always wanted to do more charity work. I feel like again I want to take a step back and make a difference and I feel like through charity, but real charity, not just donations, but actually if I can change someone's life just even if it's one person's life for the better. And look, I haven't adopted but like, you know, something really like meaningful where a little bit like my grandfather where he made a decision, his whole life was like transformed. If I could do that for someone, at least one person, I think that would be absolutely incredible. And so I'd love to do stuff like that for sure. And then, and then, yeah, who knows? But, but yeah, I want to be able to like make an impact.

A (56:41)

I love what you just said about getting people out of debt. Yeah, I think that's a brilliant and inspiring objective and if you do that for lots of people, believe me, you'll be helping a lot of people.

B (56:52)

People, yeah.

A (56:52)

Through your business?

B (56:53)

No, no, from through the business and.

A (56:54)

Then through your other activities.

B (56:55)

But that's why I want to look back, hopefully I, you know, I, I, I have a good long life and I look back and be like, you know, me being born on this planet mean that, you know, people, people were better off. And, and, and that to me is more important than actual money and wealth.

A (57:11)

Well, here, here to that. Thanks so much for coming in to talk to me, Janesh. I so enjoyed our conversation and feel thoroughly inspired. Thank you very much.

B (57:19)

Thanks for, thanks for having me, James, Thanks.

A (57:20)

It's a real pleasure. Thank you, Janesh, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reed, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to learn more about Reed, Janesh Vohra or Sprive, you'll find all the links in the show notes. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

B (57:44)

Sam.