66. From miniskirts to stem cell therapy: How a fashion leader is changing heart failure treatment | Jenifer Rosenberg OBE

Summary

Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: James Reed: All About Business
Episode: 66 – From Miniskirts to Stem Cell Therapy: How a Fashion Leader is Changing Heart Failure Treatment
Guest: Jennifer Rosenberg OBE
Host: James Reed CBE
Date: February 16, 2026

This episode features the inspiring and multifaceted career of Jennifer Rosenberg, OBE. Beginning as a post-room employee at Marks & Spencer (M&S) in the 1960s, Jennifer rose to lead innovation in fashion, founded J&J Fashions (then the UK’s largest ladieswear manufacturer), and, following her husband’s battle with heart disease, established the Heart Cells Foundation to advance stem cell research for heart failure treatment. James and Jennifer discuss reinvention, the power of innovation, and using hardship to fuel meaningful change.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Career at Marks & Spencer: Innovation and Quality

• Climbing the Ladder: Jennifer started in the post room at M&S and soon moved through departments, learning the business from the ground up. (01:55)
• Fashion Innovation: She and her team were responsible for introducing the miniskirt to M&S, inspired by Mary Quant and the changing London fashion scene. Despite initial skepticism from a traditional, male senior board, Jennifer’s advocacy led to a trial that rapidly sold out.
  • “I said to them, we have to try this look. This is what's happening on the high street.” – Jennifer (02:51)
• Upholding Standards: Jennifer highlights M&S’s unwavering commitment to quality, both in sourcing and factory conditions, well before such practices became industry standard.
  • “Quality was terribly important. Quality, Quality. All the factories that manufacture for M&S had to be of a certain standard.” – Jennifer (07:12)
• Communication Culture: The environment fostered engagement at every level. Board members would directly talk to staff and shop assistants to stay close to customer needs.
  • “The sales assistant would know more than anybody else what the customer wants.” – Jennifer (12:45)
• The Value of Talking: Jennifer laments the modern loss of face-to-face communication, stressing the importance of “it pays to talk.” (14:22)
  • “I always say to myself, it pays to talk…so important to pick up the phone and have a conversation.” – Jennifer (14:44)

Entrepreneurship: Founding and Growing J&J Fashions

• Launching J&J Fashions (1974): Left M&S on good terms to become a supplier, leveraging her inside knowledge of M&S’s culture and standards.
  • “I left on very good terms. In fact, they gave me a golden handshake…” – Jennifer (16:42)
• Resilience in Early Challenges: Opened during Britain’s three-day week, improvising by sharing a generator with her husband’s nearby factory. (17:03)
• Trailblazing Trends: Jennifer continued to innovate, manufacturing flared trousers and later introducing leggings for M&S, taking inspiration from American commercial fashion trends.
  • “We innovated…and I was very good at innovating, as was my husband.” – Jennifer (26:12)
• Scaling the Business: Expanded to 12 factories and employed over 3,000 people at the peak, focusing on all ladieswear except knitwear and coats.
• Exit and Acquisition: Sold the business in 1992. The buyer, Claremont, failed after cutting the design department she had fostered.
  • “If you don't invest in design, you're in trouble.” – Jennifer (25:23)
• Globalization: Shifted to overseas manufacturing in response to rising UK costs and changing market dynamics, ultimately seeing the writing on the wall and selling at the right moment.

Reinvention: Founding the Heart Cells Foundation

• Personal Catalyst: Husband Ian’s diagnosis with heart failure and limited treatment options led them to experimental stem cell therapy in Germany, which restored Ian’s ability to walk up stairs in days. (33:53)
• From Patient to Pioneer: Realizing the UK lagged in stem cell research, Jennifer and Ian set up the Heart Cells Foundation in 2003 to fund clinical trials.
• Direct Impact: The foundation formed a unique partnership with St Bartholomew’s Hospital, funding technician positions and patient treatments directly.
  • “We are only paying for what they are treating. We pay for the technician…It’s working brilliantly.” – Jennifer (35:15)
• Breakthrough Clinical Trials: Funded gold standard trials for heart attack survivors, post-attack heart failure patients, and those with idiopathic cardiomyopathy.
  • “The results are unbelievable.” – Jennifer (36:54)
• Expanding Access: Now seeking to raise £8–10 million for a major national trial, aiming for NHS-wide adoption. (38:04)
• Cost and Benefit: Each stem cell procedure costs approx. £12,000, a fraction of the cost and complexity of heart transplants, with the added benefit of significantly improving patient quality of life and returns to work.
  • “Heart failure is one of the biggest killers in this country…it affects the whole family…and the economics of the country.” – Jennifer (48:16)

Lessons in Business & Philanthropy

• Skill Transfer: Approached charity leadership with the same organizational rigor as business—regular meetings, financial discipline, communication, and energy.
• Communication is Key: Jennifer ties all her successes—across industries and decades—to communication and relentless energy.
  • “I think, if you have to ask me, the one thing young people really should try and…learn today, is how to communicate with people.” – Jennifer (44:00)
• Measurement of Success: Value is measured by both the lives changed (families helped) and the financial stability/enabling power of the charity.
• Innovation and Fearlessness: Advocates learning by doing and taking risks, especially when young.
  • “When I look back…I didn't have any fear…anything I wanted to do, I was able to do.” – Jennifer (50:13)
• Never Retire: Jennifer’s unflagging energy is both a personal habit (daily exercise and engagement) and a philosophy: always have something to aim for.
  • “No, I never want to retire…I love having a list of jobs to do that I can cross off at the end of the day.” – Jennifer (47:05)
• Buccaneering Spirit: Both Jennifer and the senior M&S leaders she learned from embodied a fearless, problem-solving approach.

---

Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

On Introducing the Miniskirt at M&S:
“This amazing designer called Mary Quant and this wonderful model called Twiggy was walking around London in these miniskirts. And I felt, well, we've got to have this. We've absolute. So I bought one for myself… I made a presentation to the board… and they just walked off the counter within a day.’’
– Jennifer (02:51–04:27)

On Quality and Standards:
“All the factories that manufacture for M&S had to be of a certain standard. They couldn’t be like sweatshops…M&S insisted on having the right facilities for their staff.”
– Jennifer (07:12)

On Communication:
“It pays to talk. …So important to pick up the phone and have a conversation, rather than keep sending texts, boxes and emails.”
– Jennifer (14:44)

On Innovating in Fashion:
“I have a very good eye for seeing what's going to sell…We would go to America… Their stores were wonderful. We copied.”
– Jennifer (26:39)

On the Power of Design:
“Design is a very expensive part of a business…they cut the design element down…If you haven’t got new merchandise coming through, you suffer.”
– Jennifer (23:49–24:27)

On Setting Up the Heart Cells Foundation:
“My husband was so incensed… there was no money in the UK going for this research…He said, ‘How much do you need to start this trial?’…Ian said, ‘I’ll get it for you.’ And he did.”
– Jennifer (34:16–35:00)

On Energy and Never Retiring:
“I've got a lot of energy. …I just…I like doing things. I like having something to aim for. I love having a list of jobs to do that I can cross off at the end of the day.”
– Jennifer (47:05)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–07:10 – Jennifer’s early years and introducing the miniskirt at M&S
• 07:10–14:50 – The qualities that made M&S an industry leader; workplace culture then vs. today
• 14:50–22:33 – Career progression, the importance of communication, and transitioning to entrepreneurship
• 22:33–29:10 – Scaling J&J Fashions, innovation, acquiring and integrating other companies, and eventual sale
• 29:10–41:09 – Personal catalyst for Heart Cells Foundation, stem cell science, setting up the charity, and partnership with Bart’s
• 41:09–45:28 – Starting a charity from scratch, communication, and the emotional impact on families
• 45:28–48:58 – Measuring charity success, stem cell therapy’s expanding promise, and future plans
• 48:58–53:36 – Personal routines, energy, advice on reinventing oneself, maintaining standards, and future outlook

---

Key Takeaways

• Reinvention is Possible: Jennifer’s story embodies radical reinvention—carrying forward lessons, skills, and energy from one field to the next.
• Innovation and Design Matter: Whether in business or social impact, innovation, attention to trends, and design are enduring differentiators.
• Communication is Essential: Both success in business and effective philanthropy hinge on clear, personal, and continual communication.
• Be Fearless and Resourceful: Early-career boldness and resourcefulness lay the groundwork for continual career evolution.
• Purpose Drives Persistence: Jennifer’s pursuit of purpose—whether modernizing fashion or saving lives—sustains her relentless energy and drive.

---

Closing Questions & Reflections

• What gets you up on Monday morning?
  “I always have early appointments deliberately because I’m not the best at getting up early. So if I have a 9 o’clock meeting, I have to be up for it…” – Jennifer (52:28)
• Where do you see yourself in five years?
  “I’d like to still be here… doing more of the things I enjoy…” – Jennifer (53:08)

Jennifer’s story is one of progress through innovation, resilience, empathy—and the buccaneering spirit she urges every entrepreneur and leader to cultivate.

---

To learn more about Jennifer’s work, visit theheartcellsfoundation.com.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. From the swinging 60s, fashion rails to the front line of cutting edge medical research. Today's guest has reinvented herself more than once. I'm joined by Jennifer Rosenberg, OBE, entrepreneur, former fashion manufacturer for some of the UK's best known retailers and founder of the Heart Sells Foundation. We'll dive into resilience, reinvention and what it takes to turn hard moments into meaningful impact for thousands of people. Well, today on All About Business, I couldn't be more delighted than to welcome Jennifer Rosenberg, who has had three amazing careers and we're going to talk a little about each of them. Jennifer, you started out at Marks and Spencer's and was promoted on numerous occasions to a very senior role there earlier in your career. Then you started your own business, J and J Fashion.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Which became the largest privately owned ladies wear manufacturer in the country, employing thousands of people. And then you started the Heart Cells foundation, which is pioneering, really exciting new research to help people with heart disease and heart conditions. And I want to talk to you about that as well. But firstly, welcome.

[B]

Thank you very much. Thank you for inviting me, James.

[A]

It's a real pleasure to see you. Thank you for coming in. Let's go back to the beginning and those swinging 60s because I believe that you were the person with your team who introduced the miniskirt to Marks and Spencer's, no less.

[B]

That's right. What happened? Well, first of all, I started in M S in the post room. So I really started at the bottom, pushing a pose trolley around, delivering the mail. But I didn't intend to stay there. And you know, after various meetings with staff, management and everything, I found myself in the skirt department. I was very happy to be in the skirt, but at that time I wasn't the senior buyer of the skirt skirt department, I junior. But I could see what was happening in London. This was the beginning of the 60s. It was every day there was something new that was happening in the scene. And Mary Quant developed something called the miniskirt. And prior to that we'd been wearing skirts down to our calves, our ankles. And suddenly this amazing designer called Mary Quant and this wonderful model called Twiggy was walking around London in these miniskirts. And I felt, well, we've got to have this. We've absolute. So I bought one for myself. And fortunately, I've got good legs, so that was okay. That went down very well. And I made a presentation to the board and I said to them, we have to try this look. This is what's happening on the high street. And they armed, and they are. And I put it up against myself. And because I'm quite short, it didn't look. Because I'm sure.

[A]

Sorry to interrupt you at this point, just to help me visualize this. Was the board all male?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you were presenting all men or no women on.

[B]

No women at all.

[A]

And they were probably all of a certain age.

[B]

They definitely, definitely.

[A]

And they had a reputation for being quite staid. Marks and stone.

[B]

Yes. But they were stayed. But they were involved. They were very much into merchandise. They really would feel the fabric, look at the fabric. And they also had an amazing way of communicating with us. They were brilliant. So they'd walk in and they'd say, what's new? So I immediately got hold of my sample of this miniskirt, and I said, sir, I feel we should be trying this. This is what's happening on the high street. Then I put it up against myself, and it didn't look that short.

[A]

Why is that?

[B]

Because I'm short?

[A]

Because you're short. So they're quite long on you.

[B]

They look quite reasonable on me. So, in fact, it was Teddy Sief at the time. He was the chairman.

[A]

He's a famous retailer.

[B]

Absolutely. And he said, well. And they used to call you by your maiden name. So my name was Levine. So he said, well, Ms. Levine, okay, but if you think we should try it, let's try it. So we'll try. We worked in dozens in those days, so we'll try 50 dozen. Which was nothing for them when they were buying. And of course, we. We made them put them out and they just walked off the counter within a day. I mean, it was just 50 dozen.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

Well, we always worked in dozens there, which is like 600.

[A]

600 for everyone else listening. Pre decimalization.

[B]

Even after decimalization, we worked in Dawson's. Always in Dawson's.

[A]

I wonder why that was.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Just tradition.

[B]

Just tradition. Well, it was a very. It was a very traditional firm. But they had vision, and that was so important. And they realized that what was happening in the high street in the 60s was changing ladies fashion. In fact, it was changing Everything, it was changing the music business, it was changing hair. You had Vidal Sassoon, who created that amazing cut that Mary Quant had and Twiggy had. I mean, the whole scene was changing.

[A]

Even Reed employment began in 1960. Here we go. 7th.

[B]

Amazing. So it's a brilliant time. Your father had great vision and knew this was the time to start.

[A]

Well, it was a time for new ideas, wasn't it?

[B]

Exactly. Everybody was thirsty and hungry for new.

[A]

Ideas and he was definitely an ideas guy. So, so you, you found yourself in this amazing business where they were open minded to new ideas and you were able to present.

[B]

I mean, I always remember when I bought for myself, there was a wonderful boutiques of stores called Coronel and they bought beautiful merchandise from Paris. And I bought from there a velvet blazer, a brown velvet blazer. I remember it like it was yesterday. And again I brought it in and I showed it to my director at the time, which again was Teddy Sev. And I said, sir, I feel this is something we should try. And he looked at it and he said, Ms. Levied Velvet's only for the evening. I said, no, it's moving forward now and people are going to be wearing velvet blazers during the day. Well, then try it. But this time, because it was such an expensive garment, we could only try. Try. 25 dozen. Got them in again. Hermann's made velvet blazers for the next 10 years. They never stopped. It became a fashion item that every woman wanted to have.

[A]

What colors were they?

[B]

Black and brown.

[A]

Just those two colors.

[B]

It's like. It's like Henry Ford with his car. You can have any color as long as it's black.

[A]

But I'm picking up that you called him sir and he called you Ms. Levine. I mean, so the business environment's changed so much.

[B]

Totally total.

[A]

I mean, this is interesting perspective, but.

[B]

I find it strange when I maybe call somebody up and they immediately call me by my first name because that isn't how we grew up. No, but that's the way the world is today. It's very different.

[A]

But Marks and Spencer's then was. I mean, it's still a very successful and very good business. But then it was sort of undisputed leader.

[B]

Undisputed leader of the high street.

[A]

What qualities made it that, do you think?

[B]

Because we had to. Quality was terribly important. Quality, Quality. All the. All the factories that manufacture for M and S had to be of a certain standard. They couldn't be like sweatshops. They just couldn't. They had to be had proper facilities. Of this, M and S insisted on having the right facilities for their staff. They had canteens in all their shops so girls could have breakfast or lunch. And they insisted that the manufacturers had the same facilities. They had to be clean, they had to have canteens for the girls to have lunch. And if you smoked in those days, people. People smoked. You had a smoking room.

[A]

Right. So they were ahead of their time.

[B]

Way ahead of their time.

[A]

Was most of the manufacturing done in Britain then?

[B]

At that time, everything was done in Britain on their label.

[A]

All the sourcing, made in Britain.

[B]

Maybe not the fabric, but every, I would say 100 of actual manufacturing was done in the UK.

[A]

So that's totally changed.

[B]

Totally changed now. Totally changed, yeah, it's a totally different world. I mean, you buy something, you buy, I don't know, a skirt or a bra and it's made in Bangladesh or it's made in Kuala Lumpur, wherever, Right.

[A]

And you don't know what the conditions are in those factories.

[B]

Well, they are. They're sweatshops. You remember that? Terrible. I think it was, it. Was it either Bangladesh or Pakistan where they had that terrible.

[A]

There's a fire. Yes, I do.

[B]

And a lot of people were killed. And I mean, those factory conditions were appalling.

[A]

So it's interesting. So why do you think that those standards that were so successful then were allowed to fall away and.

[B]

Well, they haven't fallen away in the uk. It's because people have gone overseas.

[A]

Well, that's what's happened, isn't it? But I mean, people in the UK are happy to buy.

[B]

I'll tell you a funny little story, right? Before going into the skirt department, I was in the accessory department and I was very junior then, and we were buying Chanel crocheted berets from Italy. These Chanel berets were all handmade by artisans living all around Florence. But they would come to a central point where they would be collected. So I went to this central point, which was a factory, to check these berets out. And each worker had been given a shape which they had to make these hand crocheted berries. Anyway, being a lady, I suddenly decided I need to go to the lavatory. So I said, oh, you know, where can I go? And was a lot of hissing and talking behind hands and everything. And suddenly the next thing, I found myself in a car being taken to somebody's home to use the facilities because all they had in the factory was a hole in the floor, right? So I thought this was terribly funny. So when I went back and I Told my boss, you know, this story about what had happened. He was horrified. And the manufacturer's agent was called in and said, unless they put proper facilities in that factory, they're canceling all the contracts. And that's how they operated. Because they felt that you shouldn't, you should have proper facilities everywhere.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they were. Their high standards really created the amazing business that they had and the quality of the merchandise that they made.

[A]

Yeah. So it's a real message around.

[B]

Focusing on quality policy was second to none. Treating people properly and treating people and I always. Another instance again, again with Teddy Sieve, there's something with tweeds again. Tweeds were manufactured in various countries and we used to buy a lot of them. But there was a fabric called Boswell which is where the off cuts of the fabric was made and it was cheaper. It felt very coarse. He would always feel a skirt and say, this can't be Boswell because we're not buying it. And they had their own quality control in the building. They had their own team of quality control people, they had their own laboratories. They were way, way ahead.

[A]

Reed.co.uk is giving away 1 million free job listings to employers across the UK. Whether you're filling dozens of roles over the next few months or looking for your next team member right now, reed.co.uk can find them for free. No catch, no long term commitments, just more businesses being able to find their perfect hire. Act quickly. These listings aren't free forever. Visit reed.co.ukforward/million job giveaway today and be part of 1,000,000 opportunities to love Mondays. So Teddy Sif, you've mentioned himself.

[B]

I know because he was my boss.

[A]

He was your boss. But I mean, he, he for younger listeners, was very famous, very retailer, entrepreneur, businessman in the 20th century. What did you learn from your boss? What would be carried forward into this era?

[B]

First of all, I think he was a wonderful communicator. You know, he was the chairman of this public company and I was a kid in my 20s, he knew exactly who I was. He would come in, he would have a conversation with me, he would communicate with me and I think that was an amazing, amazing way to operate. And all the senior board operated like that. They would go down to Marble Arch, talk to the customers, see what was happening, what was selling, come back and they knew that business inside out.

[A]

So they were very keen to talk to people who were in, absolutely on the shop floor, customer face and learn from them.

[B]

And they would make a point of talking to the sales assistants because the Sales assistant would know more than anybody else what the customer wants.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I mean, and they. They regarded everybody as being important. You know, from this. From the shop assistant to the buyer to the senior buyer, they treated us all equally.

[A]

Very good. That's a very important message. You started out, you said, in the post room. So I suppose that was a good way to get to know everyone because you were delivering the mail.

[B]

No, I got to know everybody. I didn't stay in the post room very long. I was only there two weeks, but I was okay. I went into the accounts department. That's where I got to know everybody. Because in those days, you had things like checks.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And the checks had to have two signatures. So every check had to have the company secretary signature on him. Mr. Goldberg, I remember him like it was yesterday. And then I was given the job because I was young and cute. I was given the job of them finding directors to get the second signature on. Well, I didn't find them. They'd phone around, and there were various members of the board, like the sackers and the sackers and the Laskys, and they were mature gentlemen, and they were very happy when I came in to have a conversation. They didn't have much to do other than sign these, have a cup of coffee, and they were. So I got to know them all. So I would say that I learned more. I learned about more people in the accounts department than I did in the post room.

[A]

But so this point about making time to talk to people, it feels like in many businesses, that's been lost.

[B]

I think it is being lost because you've got all this technology today. People are texting, they're sending emails. They're losing the art of communication. I have a little saying. I always say to myself, it pays to talk. And I think it's so important to pick up the phone and have a conversation with somebody rather than keep sending texts, boxes and emails.

[A]

It pays to talk.

[B]

It pays to talk.

[A]

My version of that is talk before you type.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Because I agree.

[B]

We are. We're on the same wavelength.

[A]

We are. I think you're more likely to get things done if you talk.

[B]

Absolutely. I agree with you. I couldn't agree with you more because an email is very black and white and it can be dangerous.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Whereas when you have a conversation, you can just. If there's a. You can feel there's a situation developing, you can diffuse it.

[A]

Yes. So how many years were you at Marks and Spencer's?

[B]

I was at Marks and Spencer for 14 years.

[A]

And then you branched out on your.

[B]

Own, which is exciting.

[A]

So this is career number two.

[B]

So I left career number one where I was flying high. I was really.

[A]

So what was your last job there before?

[B]

My last job was in ladies separates and separates had grown it. So I started off with a small skirt range, but from there we developed a trouser range. They didn't have trousers. Then we developed jackets and the whole thing grew. It was like it was growing at such a fast rate we didn't quite realize how big it was. It was enormous. And it was quite funny with trousers because we developed these fit and flare trousers and we couldn't get enough production. So again when the board would go around to different manufacturers, anyone that had Hoffman Press suddenly became a trouser manufacturer overnight. We were pulling in production from everywhere.

[A]

What's a Hoffman Press?

[B]

Oh, a Hoffman Press, Right. It's a big. It's two pads and you just clamp it down and it steams and presses. So you put a trouser leg under it and you get the crease.

[A]

Oh, I see.

[B]

But you use it for other things as well. You don't only use it for trousers. You can use it for. But it's that it's all been modernized now. I shouldn't think any industry uses the Hoffman Press today.

[A]

That's what I wanted to make sure I knew what it was. So. So in 1974 you left and you started your own business.

[B]

I started my own manufacturing business called JJ Fashions, supplying who else but Marks and Spencer?

[A]

So you had left on good terms, obviously.

[B]

I left on very good terms. In fact, they gave me a golden handshake which was very nice. In fact, I actually left on the Christmas of 73 and we opened our doors to our factory January 74, which you're far too young to remember, but that was the days of Edward Heath and Harold Wilson. And we had a three day week.

[A]

No, I do remember. Yeah, actually, yeah, I do remember. Yeah. That wasn't a great time probably to start a business.

[B]

Time to start a business. You could only work for three days a week.

[A]

So how did you deal with that? I mean, what happened?

[B]

Well, what happened was my husband was also a very large manufacturer to M S and he had a factory nearby that had a generator. So he would use the generator for the two days that. That he wasn't working. Then I would borrow the generator for the two days that we weren't working.

[A]

Oh, so it was on a truck.

[B]

On a truck.

[A]

So what did you make?

[B]

My first contract was ladies Trousers, Ladies.

[A]

Trousers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So describe them. What did they look like?

[B]

Well, if I say fish and flare, would that mean flared trousers?

[A]

1974. Yeah. I'm thinking flared trousers. What material?

[B]

Crimpling.

[A]

Crimply.

[B]

Crimping. Crepe.

[A]

And people. People love these trousers.

[B]

They love these trousers. And the fastest colors were navy and black.

[A]

Right. So this was sort of something people would wear.

[B]

Absolutely. Well, trousers were coming into people's wardrobes. They were new. They had.

[A]

Because women didn't wear trousers.

[B]

Women didn't wear trousers.

[A]

So you've revolutionized.

[B]

Well, I always remember when we were at M S, going back to M S and again, Teddy Sieve came in and he said, and trousers were selling incredibly well. He said, well, why are you girls not wearing trousers? Because we weren't. I said, well, we're not allowed to, sir. He said, well, from today on, you are allowed to wear them. I want to see you all in trousers.

[A]

That's good. So.

[B]

So that's when that would have been, I suppose about 1970, 71. We were allowed to wear trousers.

[A]

So that gave you an idea this was something that might be happening everywhere. And then you grew that business and you ended up with several factories.

[B]

We finished up in the end with 12 factories. We started our first factory in the northeast in Wallsend. And we grew.

[A]

We finished up Newcastle.

[B]

Newcastle, that's right. Finished up with about eight factories there. We were in Sunderland, Blythe, along the whole coast.

[A]

So Newcastle was your base?

[B]

Newcastle was our base.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then we then branched into Yorkshire.

[A]

So what. What made you success? I mean, because you became, I think, Business Woman of the Year, that smart champagne brand.

[B]

Absolutely. And I still get my champagne every year on my birthday.

[A]

Oh, they still send it to you? Oh, all credit to them for that. So you. You were obviously very successful in this period.

[B]

Well, it was a very exciting time again, because 70s was a very prosperous time in the UK and, you know, I had a wonderful relationship with Martin Spencer, and I was able to develop that relationship from being a buyer then knowing what the marketplace wanted, to becoming a manufacturer.

[A]

So what you've just described is an interesting opportunity, I think, for many people is to become a supplier to your current company. You know, if you're working somewhere, what might be helpful to your current employee that you might be able to supply to them? Because when my father started this business in 1960, he recruited for Gillette, for instance, which is where he used to work.

[B]

Oh, right. Well, there you are.

[A]

He also left on very good terms.

[B]

So it's a very Similar scenario, if.

[A]

You can leave on good terms and become a supplier to a company you work for, that's maybe a good way.

[B]

To get going because they also value it because they know that you know what they want and how they operate and therefore you know their standards. I'll tell you a funny story with my first factory. So I mark going there and it's all got. It's a warehouse on an industrial site at Woolsen, so it's got to be painted. So I did a colour board, I got my colors sorted out and I with the builder and I decided the walls are going to be this color. When I go up there, they're not the same color. They were a bright white and I wanted like a cream. So he said to me, but. So I said, well, it's wrong. He said, well, it doesn't matter, it's only a factory. I said, it may only be a factory to you, but it's my factory and I want the colors the way I chose them. So can you please change this color? I don't think anyone had ever spoken to him like that before.

[A]

But the colors would change.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. Because bright. If you're looking at bright white walls, it's very bad on your eyes. You want something softer, much softer, because you've got the bright lights on all the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. Yes.

[A]

So how many people worked in that factory when.

[B]

I suppose when we started off with one line, because you know when you're in production, you have lines of machines. So we start off with one and gradually we built it up and I suppose we probably finished up with about 100 in that factory.

[A]

So what. What made you open separate factories rather than just get a bigger factory?

[B]

Well, first of all, it's the space. I mean, factories take up a lot of room because you've got to have a machine and then you've got to have your pressing units at the bottom and you're packing. It's a lot of footage required to manufacture garments. It's not like you're manufacturing cans of soup. You need a lot more room, a lot of room.

[A]

So you need a lot of room for one space.

[B]

A lot of space. And it was better. I mean, if you get too big, it's much more difficult to control than if you've got a system where, say you've got eight or ten lines in a factory, you have a supervisor on each line, you have the merchandise being made in sections through the line and then it comes to the bottom, it gets pressed, it gets packed. We just found that was a better way of. Most of the factories were that similar sizes, actually, if I think about around 100 people. Yeah, about 100 people. Some were more. We had some more.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So what other, what other items did you make?

[B]

Well, we finished up making everything in ladies, where we made dress skirts, obviously, had to make skirts, trousers, leisure wear, blouses. So all ladies, all ladies out with no knitwear. We never touched knitwear.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We never touched menswear, but we covered all. And we didn't touch coats, we didn't cut coats, but we did everything else.

[A]

So you, you built this business up over an almost 20 year period and then sold it, I believe, very successfully in 1992.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Why did you use a sell it or what was your sort of. What was your strategy around that?

[B]

Our strategy was that we'd grown our business. My husband had done a couple of takeovers as well because it was very difficult to grow organically. So we took over two other companies and we were, you know, at the end of the day, we were made an offer we couldn't refuse. We had a very successful ladies wear clothing business. We were very design orientated. We were making merchandise that was selling incredibly well. So we had something, we were innovators, therefore we had something that was very attractive to our competitors.

[A]

Right. So who bought the business?

[B]

A company called Claremont, who were a public company. But they, you know, to have a design is a very expensive part of a business because you have to employ designers and you have to travel and it's not in it. You have to invest a lot of money to have good design, which we did. And they were more into, they were much more into mass big production. They wanted to cut costs, so they cut the design element down. So they cut the innovation out of the business. And when things get difficult, if you haven't got new merchandise coming through, you suffer.

[A]

So after they bought your business.

[B]

After they bought our business, they went bust.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that must have been sad for you.

[B]

It was sad. But, you know, my husband said to me, love me, don't love your business. So, I mean, we, I walked.

[A]

But that's easy to say. Half the two, probably, you know, when.

[B]

I, when we, you know, I'd been in the business, we had the business now 20 years, I was very happy to walk away.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'd done an awful lot in that time, you know, since I left school and worked for Marks and Spencer. Then I'd ran a business and I was quite happy. You know, this offer came along, it was A very good offer. So I was happy to walk away. Yes, of course I was sad when they messed the business up, but equally, I knew they were going to mess it up because if you don't invest in design, you're in trouble.

[A]

Well, what you just said about innovation is so important to any business.

[B]

Any business.

[A]

If you're not innovating, you become irrelevant.

[B]

I mean, I always remember when we bought this leisure work factory and suddenly, you know, because I remember the start of leisure wear, of leggings and it all, you know, all happening. And we took into M S a pair of leopard skin leggings and they looked at them in shock and horror. Whatever. Again, we, we did a trial. Now I'm on the other side. I'm the manufacturer doing the trial. Well, we started a trial originally of 100 dozen. We sold in that one season 6,000 dozen pairs of these leggings. You can imagine how profitable that was for both of us.

[A]

Yes, yes. So. So you were still innovating, right?

[B]

Oh, very much. That's how the business grew. Of course, our business grew from being one line in a factory in Newcastle to employing 3,000 people because we innovated and I was very good at innovating, as was my husband. He was brilliant on fabrics and textiles and between us, we were amazing team.

[A]

When you say I was very good at innovating, what, what made you very good at innovating? What, how do you think about innovation? How do you go about.

[B]

Used to go to America about three or four times a year as a supplier to look at the shops because the Americans were brilliant at taking high couture fashion and making it very commercial. And we'd pick up and buy merchandise and copy it.

[A]

Just have a look.

[B]

Yeah, have a look. Absolutely. I mean, pick. I mean, I have a very good eye for seeing what's going to sell.

[A]

So being out there, really looking at what's available, what's going on.

[B]

Absolutely. So important. And America in that time in the 70s and 80s were the forerunners. Their stores were wonderful. They have amazing merchandise. So we copied.

[A]

Yeah, well, we've had other guests on the podcast who've done very well in business saying exactly that.

[B]

I mean, it's, it's the. I mean, we've sued a few times, but anyway, you always settle a few times.

[A]

That was a part of the cost.

[B]

Absolutely. Absolutely. No, it was. So as I say, we. You have to innovate, as you say today. You have to innovate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, look at Steve Job and Apple.

[A]

Yes. I didn't do so well when he wasn't there, when he came back.

[B]

I mean, it's an amazing company.

[A]

Certainly is. So what do you think about these days? Very few companies manufacture clothing in Britain. What's changed? Why is that?

[B]

Because it was cost. I mean, at the tail end, before we sold out, we were manufacturing abroad as well. So we still had our big factory place in the uk, but we'd gone to Portugal where we were manufacturing denim dresses. We'd gone to Morocco and we'd gone to Hong Kong.

[A]

Right. And you were doing that because it was becoming more and more expensive.

[B]

And also if you wanted a garment that had a lot of work content in it, we couldn't afford it in the. In our own factories because we couldn't pass that on to the retailer.

[A]

So that was because of labor costs, probably. Was it? So it became more and more expensive to employ people and the customers wouldn't entertain paying more for the product.

[B]

The client wouldn't like your car. Yeah. Your customer wouldn't entertain power.

[A]

Your customer being the retailer.

[B]

The retailer. And also other manufacturers are going abroad as well, therefore we had to compete with them.

[A]

So this was a trend that you had to go with because if you didn't, you'd go.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

So that was sort of globalization occurring.

[B]

Exactly. And that was another reason it was a perfect time to sell out.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because I know that manufacturers spend their life chasing, going from one country to another to find the cheapest production.

[A]

So you sort of saw the writing on the wall.

[B]

We saw the writing on the wall.

[A]

I saw the writing on the wall. So then coming to your third career.

[B]

My third career.

[A]

Third amazing career, I want to say, because it is amazing, you, you took a complete pivot and did something different. Well, what happened and why did you do it?

[B]

Well, there reason that things happen. I mean, my husband, we were enjoying retirement, we were traveling, we were doing lots of wonderful things and life was good. Sadly, my husband developed a heart condition. He developed something called heart failure and we went to see his cardiologist who really gave him weeks to live. It was as black and white as that.

[A]

Sorry, just to interrupt you with that, what is heart failure?

[B]

Heart failure is when it can occur three different ways it can occur if you have a heart attack, it can occur if you have something called cardiomyelopathy or it can occur for no reason. And it's when the heart, the heart is a muscle. So when a muscle. When you have heart failure, the heart becomes enlarged and it can either be a heart attack or one of the other issues that can cause it, a virus can cause it. So therefore, when the heart becomes enlarged, it can't pump as well as it did before it was enlarged. Therefore, the body builds up fluid. And that's what heart failure is, where you get fluid building up in your lungs. You find people with heart failure have swollen legs, you become very breathless, you can't walk up upstairs. It's very, very debilitating.

[A]

Right. And he's so developed this condition.

[B]

My husband developed this condition. And the only treatment other than a heart transplant is medication. And that just. It helps, but it does. Certainly doesn't cure.

[A]

Right. So you were in this situation.

[B]

In this situation, what did you do? Well, we went to see my husband's cardiologist and he said, you know, he gave us the bad news, that things were very grim. But he said he had recently been to a presentation given at Bart's Hospital by a young cardiologist called Dr. Anthony Mather, who presented a paper on something that was called stem cell therapy. And this treatment was happening in Germany, in Frankfurt, where they were taking a patient's own stem cells and injecting them back into their heart.

[A]

So sorry to keep asking to explain things. What is a stem cell?

[B]

Oh, right. I must explain to anybody listening, I'm not a medical person.

[A]

No, no. But just a heads up, what is it? Just as opposed to any other cell?

[B]

Yeah. The whole body is full of stem cells. And you've got millions of stem cells in your body. You've got them in your blood, you've got them in your bone, and you've got them in your muscle. So that's what stem cells are. Your body is full of them. And this science that they were talking about in Germany, where they were taking extracting stem cells from the patient's body, and with heart failure, they'd worked out that the best place to take stem cells from was from the bone, from the bone marrow. And they would then treat these stem cells in the laboratory, clean them and infuse them, and then inject them back into the patient's damaged heart. And they had scientific proof that by injecting them back into the damaged heart, it started to regenerate that damaged heart.

[A]

That sounds amazing. So they were literally injecting the heart with stem cells.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And these were stem cells that have been harvested.

[B]

They were their own, but they were the person's own stem cells.

[A]

Right. And this was new science, brand new.

[B]

Nobody like you, I didn't know what stem cells were either. I mean, none of us knew. We'd never heard of them.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It was so new. We're talking now about 2003. So we're talking about 23 years ago.

[A]

So this. This cardiologist back in 2003 at St. Bart's Hospital here in London shared this information. But then you, as I understand, went to Germany.

[B]

Well, he told us it was happening in Germany and Ian, my husband. No, didn't. No wasn't in his vocabulary at all. He never understood what the word no was. So he said, well, we've got to go. So Anthony said, okay. So he said, I want to go tomorrow. Anyway, by next week, we all went. Anthony Mather came with us. We all were on a plane to Germany, to Frankfurt, where my husband had the treatment.

[A]

Right. And how long did that take?

[B]

The treatment itself? He was in hospital for two days.

[A]

That's all right. And what was the result?

[B]

The result was the main. When we came home, prior to going to Germany, he hadn't been able to walk up the stairs, because stairs are one of the big testing things when you have heart failure. Within about two weeks, he was walking up the stairs. It was a miracle. It was like a light switch going on. It was unbelievable.

[A]

So then, based on this amazing result, you decided to set up a charity?

[B]

Well, it was Ian, really. He was so incensed that because we were with Anthony, when you travel with somebody, you spend a lot of time and you have conversations. And it evolved that there was no money in the UK going for this research. And Ian was a poor. He thought it was terrible that, you know, it was such an amazing thing that had happened to him that there was no money for pioneering this treatment in the uk. So he said to Anthony, how much do you need to start this trial here in the uk? So Anthony, I think he was being quite flippant. He said, oh, I need about 6 million. So this is 2003's 4. So Ian said, I'll get it for you. And he did.

[A]

So he raised 6 million. Martin set up a charity to do this.

[B]

We set up the charity first and then we raised the money.

[A]

And the charity is called the Heart Cells Foundation.

[B]

Called the Heart Cells foundation, yes.

[A]

And that was founded by you and Ian?

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Initially raised 6 million for this research.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so that went to some bar.

[B]

The treatment was happening at some Barts. Yes. But we say we have the most amazing relationship with St. Bartholomew's Hospital because we're a charity funding this treatment. We've been doing it. We've been working with them now for 21 years and we don't put the money into a pool that gets just spread around. We are only paying for what they are treating. We pay for the technician that's dealing with it. It's a direct payment and it's working brilliantly.

[A]

So how's the treatment evolved and developed since 2003?

[B]

Well, they're obviously fine tuning it as it's gone on. I mean, we now have a situation where we're treating. We did our three gold standard trials, which were very successful and papers were published.

[A]

So what's the gold standard trial? Sounds like an important trial.

[B]

We did three trials. We did one trial. They're called gold standard because it's the technique and the way they have to do them. But one trial was treating patients who'd had a heart attack, so when they were rushed to ae, they were given the opportunity of having stem cells. The second one was patients who'd had a heart attack and developed an enlarged heart. And the third trial was where patients for no reason developed something called cardiomyelopathy, which again is like heart failure, but there's no reason. They haven't had a heart attack, they haven't had a stroke, it's just suddenly happened and that tends to be much younger people. So we've done those three different trials.

[A]

And the results, Results were excellent. Right.

[B]

I don't know whether you've had a chance to look at any of our case studies, but when you go on our website and you look at our case studies, the results are unbelievable.

[A]

So people who are interested in this, how do they find you? Jennifer?

[B]

Well, they find us if they go on our website, which is theheartsealthfoundation.com and you look on there, you'll find all the information you need. You can register with us and we will contact you and providing you tick all the boxes, you'll be able to receive this amazing treatment.

[A]

So tick all the boxes. In fact, you're a sufferer of heart failure of some form or other, you've.

[B]

Medically got to tick the boxes because you may have other conditions as well. So I'm not a medical person, but they have to go through our whole medical system, they have to have scans to make sure that they're suitable.

[A]

Right. And this is available to people?

[B]

This is available free of charge. Well, the Heart Cell foundation fund it, it costs about 12,000 pounds to treat a patient, but where we fund it. Yes.

[A]

Fantastic. And, and, well, thank you and congratulations for doing that. That sounds fantastic. So you're now, as I understand it, seeking to Expand this service and raise more money.

[B]

Well, what would. More. What Ian's dream was that this treatment should be available across the UK in every National Health hospital, not just where it's now available at bart. So to be able to roll it out across the country in all the various national health hospitals, we now have. I mean, we have to get that approved by nice. We now have to do a larger trial. So to do the larger trial, we have to raise 8 to 10 million pounds, because we have to recruit about 600 patients to do this trial.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And we won't just do it at Bart's hospital. We were doing the trial at different regional hospitals around the country.

[A]

Right. And when you do the trial, there's a control group, is that right? So some people aren't given a procedure.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How does that work? And tell us what you're going to do about it.

[B]

The same thing. Because when you do a trial, you half say you're doing a trial of 600 patients, 300 will have the placebo and the other 300 will have, as I call it, the real deal.

[A]

So some of them think they're getting the treatment?

[B]

No. Yeah. They don't know.

[A]

They don't know.

[B]

They don't know.

[A]

It's quite interesting.

[B]

This is the way the medical system in this country works. It's been constructed. I think it's universal, actually. I don't think it's just in the uk, I think it's everywhere. But when you do these medical trials, half the recipients have to have a placebo, will receive the placebo. So they don't know.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then it's only when the trials get unblinded and even. Even say Professor Anthony Mather, that started, though, he wouldn't know.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Nobody knows.

[A]

So how long does the trial take?

[B]

Well, it depends. I think we probably took. We unblocked them probably after a year.

[A]

Right. So years worth of data.

[B]

But then that patient will be being checked up all through that year. They'll be coming back for checkups just to see what their heart infraction was and.

[A]

Yes. Oh, I wish you every success with that. That's. That's an amazing story. Is there anything you would say, looking at the health system more widely, would be welcome? I mean, there are lots of things you can think of, I imagine.

[B]

Well, I think one has. I think the National Health, when it works, is brilliant and I think our relationship with Bart's Hospital has been amazing. We're working with a National Health hospital, We are a private charity. We have this incredible Relationship. And I would love, if you ever had the time, to come down to Barts and see the heart unit there. It is amazing. It is state of the art. It's probably the best heart center in Europe. It is brilliant.

[A]

I'd love to do that. Thanks for the invitation.

[B]

We'll organise that for you this year. But it is. So my experience of working with them has been amazing. I know there are lots of problems and we hear about whatever, but I can't really express an opinion on it because I've not been involved in it.

[A]

So looking back on your career, starting a charity, I imagine is different from starting a business. Or is it similar? I mean, how did you navigate this?

[B]

I mean, we started this charity on the back of a cigarette packet. I mean, my husband went to Germany, Ian went to Germany, had the treatment, came back, felt a million dollars and somehow he got hold of a journalist. Don't ask me. I can't even remember how he connected with her. Called Marianne Powers, who wrote for the Daily Mail and she thought this story was amazing. And we got two. She was going to write a two page editorial for us in the Daily Mail and at that time we didn't even have a name for the charity. So she said, well, you've got to get a name, you've got to get registered, you need a board of trustees. All these things were thrown at us and we just did it. I mean, we somehow, you know, we had a very dear friend who happened to be a High Court judge who lived across the road. He became a trustee, the accountant became a trustee.

[A]

So you put this together quickly, you.

[B]

Cobbled it together very, very quickly. Because she said, when this article gets published, you're going to have so much money pouring in that you've got to have a charity, you've got to be a registered charity. So we started to register a charity and then we couldn't get a bank account, Right. But then we found a friendly banker at Hambros and he opened a bank account for us. It was all down on the back of a. Back of a cigarette packet.

[A]

But the, the story the journalist was going to write was a real impetus to getting everything else.

[B]

Tell you, so much money poured in. Oh, I'll tell you another story that evolved.

[A]

So communications again, important.

[B]

Exactly. Communication is so important. And she did two, two page editorials. That's quite something to have. So she did one initially when Ian was going to Germany, then she did another one about six months later after he'd been to Germany. And as I said, the money Just poured in. But winding the clock forward, after the trials had now started, and we had what we called a patients gathering, where a lot of the patients were invited down to Barts. And it was the day a lot of the trials were being unblinded. And this woman came up to me, she said. She gave me a big hug and a kiss. She said, I can't thank you enough. She said, when we read your first article in the Daily Mail, we decided, we're going to sell our house and my husband's going to Germany to have this treatment. And then the second article came out and we read about this wonderful charity that you'd set up and that it was all going to happen at bart. We applied and my husband was treated. She said, I have my husband still with me today, but we still have our house, and said, I cannot thank you enough. So we both finished up crying. I mean, she was crying, I was crying. It was very emotional. Very, very emotional.

[A]

And that's. That's amazing. So.

[B]

But I do think communication is important at every level. I think, if you have to ask me, the one thing young people really should try and establish, learn today, is how to communicate with people.

[A]

So when you. When you look at the charity now, you know it's different from a business in important respects. But how would you measure success when you evaluate the charity?

[B]

I think I look at two. First of all, it's the wonderful families I meet, because when you have something like heart failure, it's not just the patient that's affected, the whole family is affected. And I meet the families and I hear their stories and it's very humbling, actually, when you hear how their lives have changed and what you've been able to do with them. And I also find it very satisfying when I see the checks rolling in.

[A]

So on that measure, you can still measure income?

[B]

Absolutely. I mean, I'm very on top of the financial side of things, because the Compassionate Unit takes about half a million pounds a year to run.

[A]

The Compassion Unit is the one that reaches out.

[B]

The Compassionate is the one that's operating now, that's running on a weekly basis where we treat patients from all over the country. It's not a trial, it's just a regular unit. Whereas the new trial that we're going to do, where we need to raise the £8 million for that will be a trial where half the patients will have the placebo and the other half will have the real deal.

[A]

Right. And I suppose the other measure of progress or success is scientific progress, of course.

[B]

I mean.

[A]

And you've seen that?

[B]

Well, we've seen it. And stem cells are now being used across the board, not just for heart failure, although it's the most advanced for heart. But it's being looked at for macular degeneration, liver disease, all sorts of things. Yes. Science moves it. Science doesn't stop.

[A]

No, that's very satisfying. So just looking at your career as a whole, these three different amazing careers chapters, let's call them, you've lived through several reinventions of yourself, from fashion to philanthropy. What. What connects. What, if anything, connects those chapters for you?

[B]

Well, I think the first and second chapter connected very easily because I went from one scenario to another, and I have Marks and Spencer in common. The third one just happened by default. But again, I put the same energy into running or chairing the Heart Cell foundation as I did to running a business. I have meetings. I've had three Zoom meetings before. I've come here to have this lovely conversation with you today, James.

[A]

That's two more than I've had.

[B]

And I like Zoom meetings because I can see the person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I am a visual person. I really am.

[A]

You prefer that to talking on the phone?

[B]

Yeah, I prefer that. Talking on the phone's okay, but I. When I'm talking, like, to our office, I do it always on Zoom because I like to connect.

[A]

Right. So the common theme I'm hearing, it maybe is energy.

[B]

I've got a lot of energy.

[A]

I'm saying that. And you. And you've said. I mean, I've done my homework. You've said you never want to retire.

[B]

No, I never want to retire. I just. I'm not somebody that. No, I. I like doing things. I like having something to aim for. I love having a list of jobs to do that I can cross off at the end of the day. Day I get. And I do have a lot of energy. I really do.

[A]

Yeah, I can see. So, you know, this is. This is an important theme. Energy. What. I mean, what do you do personally, if I might ask you, to ensure that you are fit and energetic and feel up for the day, Is there anything, Any advice you can give?

[B]

Well, all of us. I've always believed in some form of exercise. I mean, it depends on, you know, what you're able to.

[A]

So what do you do?

[B]

Well, I have a back issue, so I'm quite limited, but I do Pilates and I have a physio who comes twice a week. And I think walking is very important. I think I. If there's an easy way to go somewhere or a longer way to go some I take the longer way. And I think going up and down steps is very important.

[A]

Just moving, moving, moving.

[B]

I think it's really, I think sitting all day in front of a screen, it can't be good for you. No, it really can't. Keep moving, keep moving.

[A]

That's your message. Excellent. And what sort of impact would you do you hope to have over the next decade in terms of the work that you're doing now for the next generation?

[B]

What we're hoping is that we get this next, this phase three trial up and running, because that will be amazing. That will be fulfilling Ian's dream that this treatment will be available across the uk. Because heart failure is one of the biggest killers in this country. It's far bigger than any cancer. It really is very, very. It's very debilitating. It affects the whole family. It also affects the economics of the country because people with heart failure cannot work.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that's the other thing we found so amazing, is that so many of our patients now have gone back to work.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that's brilliant, isn't it? A. It's very satisfying for them, but it's also good for the country.

[A]

It doesn't sound, I think you said that it was £12,000 a person.

[B]

It's not expensive.

[A]

No, it doesn't sound ridiculously expensive.

[B]

Expensive at all.

[A]

So to make that more widely available.

[B]

And I mean, the hospital time is minimal and we now also have some patients that don't. They'll go. If they live nearby, they won't even stay in hospital. Hospital.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it's, it's, and it's, it's non invasive, you get no rejection. I mean, when you have a heart transplant, which costs, I think it costs about £300,000 a heart transplant, you've got the chance of rejection, whereas this, you don't.

[A]

So this is, this is something to prevent that.

[B]

Absolutely. Ideally, I also work along. I mean, you're very restricted. You only have about a hundred. A hundred heart transplants a year.

[A]

Right. Well, you have to have someone else's heart.

[B]

Absolutely. And you don't always have a match match. You know, you have to. You may have a heart, but it may not be a match for you.

[A]

Yeah. So this is a good route to go.

[B]

So this, I mean, I think stem cells are the biggest medical breakthrough of the 21st century. It's really going to revolutionize so many different illnesses.

[A]

I mean, looking back over your remarkable life and career, is there anything you would like to advise or recommend your young self from what you've learned and the journey since you were 20.

[B]

Well, when I look back on what I've done, I'm amazed at what I've done and how I didn't have any fear. When I think of what I was doing in my 20s, I was a kid, but I didn't really have any fear whatsoever. I feel that anything I wanted to do, I was able to do.

[A]

So it sounds like you would have recommended to your younger self carry on in a fearless fashion.

[B]

Absolutely. But I think when you're young, you don't have fear. It's like if you learn to ski when you're young, you're fearless when you learn to ski. At my age, which was 40, I was, you know, it wasn't the same scenario.

[A]

No.

[B]

But I do when I look back and I think what I did in my 20s, it was unbelievable. Unbelievable. But I think a lot of that was because I was very fortunate to be in that position that I was in where I was dealing with very senior business directors who had a lot of support, a lot of conf. They felt very. They all sorts. The word I'm looking for. They felt they had a lot of confidence in us. They thought we were. I mean, it takes something. When you take a big public company and they get rid of all their senior buyers and put young kids in their 20s in that position, you've got a lot of. Have a lot of courage to do things like that.

[A]

They were pretty fearless, too.

[B]

They were very fearless. They were very fearless.

[A]

So there's a buccaneering spirit. We're getting.

[B]

Buccaneering. That's the word. That's what we're. That's it. Absolutely.

[A]

Buccaneering spirit that every entrepreneur should.

[B]

I. I always feel that my solution now is there's always a solution to any problem. As problems occur, and they do for me in various ways, there's always a solution. And we can always find that solution through.

[A]

Often through innovation.

[B]

Through innovation, Absolutely.

[A]

Well, I wish you every success with that. I really hope that trial is up and running soon and that we're able to extend this wonderful innovation and service to a lot more people.

[B]

Well, thank you very much for giving me your time today and explaining what I'm doing. And I hope you'll accept my invitation to come to Barts.

[A]

Now. I always ask two questions at the end.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Jennifer, of all my guests, and so I'm going to ask you, the first question is because we love Mondays at Reed, what is it that gets you up on a Monday morning.

[B]

What is it that gets me up in the morning? Well, I always have early appointments deliberately because I'm not the best at getting up early. So if I have a 9 o' clock meeting in my diary, I have to be up for it and I have to be ready for it. I mean I always do my hair, I always put my makeup, I always get dressed. I'm so old fashioned. Even when we were in lockdown I did that every morning.

[A]

Well, good for you. It's important to uphold standards.

[B]

I think it is. Standards I think are terribly important. That was something else I learned at Ms. Standards.

[A]

Right. And my last question, which is an interview question from my interview book, why you is where do you see yourself in five years time?

[B]

Well, I'd like to still be here in five years time. I don't know. I'd like to. Well, first of all the trial will be up and running then definitely in five years time and we will have made enormous progress and it would be much more well known than it is currently. Me personally just doing more of the things I enjoy doing. I mean I, I love going to the. I'm very involved with the art world, which I enjoy. I play bridge. I've got a lot of interests as well as, as well as my charity.

[A]

Very good. Well, I wish you all the very best with all of those things. Thank you for coming in.

[B]

Thank you for inviting me today.

[A]

It's been a real pleasure. So enjoyed the conversation.

[B]

Me too. It's been lovely, thanks. Thank you.

[A]

Thank you Jennifer, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to learn more about Reid or the Heart Sells foundation, you'll find all the links in the show notes. See you next time.