← James Reed: all about business
James Reed: all about business
69. The career mistake smart people keep making (and what actually matters) | Sophie Clarke
00:25:11
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. Welcome to All About Business shorts where we share practical advice you will actually use. In this episode, we'll be looking at the bigger picture, how to think about your career strategically. I'm joined by Sophie Clark, one of our top re consultants who works with professionals at every stage of their career, from early movers to senior leaders and sees firsthand why some careers accelerate while others stall. We'll talk about long term direction, building leverage and how to make smarter decisions even when the path isn't obvious. So today on All About Business, I'm delighted to welcome Sophie Clark to the studio. We're going to be talking about how to think about your career strategically. This is a really interesting question, Sophie. And Sophie is a senior consultant at Reid Specialist Recruitment based in Norwich. Thank you for making the journey down to talk to me today. Sophie and you take particular interest in sort of legal professionals, but we can go way beyond that in terms of how to think about your career strategically. Where should someone begin when thinking about this? What does it actually mean to think about your career strategically and what does that mean rather than just chasing the next job? I mean, what's the difference?
- [01:55]
B
No, absolutely. Well, thank you for having me. And I was really excited to have this question actually, because it's something I talk about with candidates and clients. I think often recruiters or conversations that we're having with candidates is when they're looking to escape a position. But actually it's thinking a little bit more about which direction that you might want to go into. So not necessary chasing the flashy new title or the increased salary and thinking what, what that next position might offer you and open doors up in a slightly different avenue.
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A
Right. I mean I've heard the expression, we've used it in the past, you know, a job, a better job, a career. So I think this is what you're talking about rather than just sort of falling into the next thing because you trying to get out of somewhere else.
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B
Absolutely. And I think we all do it. It's a natural and kind of humanistic thing to think, well, you know, that next title might actually be the thing that will satisfy me in short term. It might do but if you're thinking potentially long term, that new role might still encompass the same sort of responsibilities that you had in a previous role. It might not fit culturally for you. It might actually limit your growth within an organization. I think sometimes taking a bit of a step back and thinking, well what energizes me or what direction do I want to go? Moving forward will then help heighten and grow you as an individual than thinking, oh, I just want to leave this role.
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A
Right. So what's the most common short term career decision that actually harms long term progression?
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B
So again, coming back down to title, a flashy title, it might be a more senior role, but actually when you look into the roles and responsibility, it actually is very similar to the role that you might be in before salary. So having another increase in your salary perspective, but actually you might have longer journey commutes that might be more difficult for you on a personal level. Potentially there might not be management opportunities. If that's something potentially that you're sort of looking for in the future. Again, it comes back to short term, it's exciting. So it alleviates some of that frustration that you might be having. But maybe in 6 to 12 months time you realize actually it doesn't do anything further for you.
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A
So don't necessarily be taken in by a flashier title or a little bit more money. Might not long term.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
As well.
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B
No, absolutely not. And I think it's also asking the right sort of questions when you're going through that interview process. You know, what does that team structure look like within the business and where does the business expect to grow maybe in six to 12 months? Because actually again, it comes back to, it might be limiting your growth opportunities. It might not have wider scope for you to go beyond that point. One thing that seems to come up quite a bit actually when I'm discussing with candidates and speaking with other consultants is individuals that then maybe move quite dramatically because they've been enticed into, like I said, a new job position, title, salary, suddenly have a realization. Maybe actually this doesn't align with what I want. It actually begins to knock their confidence. And you slowly see that kind of deterioration in their own confidence and ability and maybe complete in work.
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A
Yeah. The difference between a. The right job and the wrong job can have a huge impact on people's confidence. I mean I've seen that myself and how people suddenly have a spring in their step when they feel that they're happily.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Place somewhere that's right for them. So, so evaluating beyond the job title and the, the pay, the sort of culture and the values, I think of the team that you're working with is, is very important, isn't it?
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B
I think it's taken a step back sometimes. I mean, even myself, I took a career change into the position I'm in now. I truthfully didn't know what I wanted to do, but what sort of helped me and again, how I approach this with my candidates, family, friends, other colleagues, is maybe thinking about what energizes you, what motivates you in your job. So for some people it's the challenge. For some people it is maybe the compensation package, for example. For other people it might be management and being an influencer within the organization, but then also maybe having a bit of time to think about what takes me away from my day, what maybe demotivates me to then really assess which direction that maybe you want to go in, as opposed close to thinking there's only this option or there's only that option.
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A
There's sort of infinite options in the end.
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B
Oh, hugely. I think it's being open to conversations. So one of the other points that I, again, I discuss a lot with candidates and colleagues alike is asking questions. I don't think we do enough of that. It's very surface level. We have so many people in our environment, not just within work, that have had their own journeys, career wise or maybe on a personal level, ask them questions, ask them what did they do that might be slightly different. What feedback can they maybe provide to you? What do they see that you've achieved over the years and where you've really shone in a certain environment. And maybe getting it from a slightly different angle will help, kind of.
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A
So this is, this is really interesting. You're talking about seeking input from people you know in your networks and friendships.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
And you've found that helpful yourself?
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B
I have, yeah.
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A
And you also mentioned, I think it's critical, you know, to have an understanding of what energizes you.
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B
Yes, yeah, yeah.
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A
What, what makes you feel you want to get up and go.
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B
Yeah.
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A
As opposed to lie in bed, not get out.
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B
Exactly.
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A
And we're all different in that respect.
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B
Well, exactly. Like for me as an individual, I love being around people. I love to learn from people, their experiences, pick their brains, challenge their thought processes. You know, be a bit of devil's advocate. That's the environment that I enjoy. But not all people like that. I don't mind going to networking events. Some people might not enjoy that. So I think it's a really good opportunity to Kind of assess that. And sometimes we are our biggest critique. And that's why I was using that example of speaking with friends and family and colleagues, because they see you from a slightly different angle and they can probably appreciate a little bit more than what you give yourself credit most of the time.
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A
They'll certainly give you a different perspective.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Because they do see you, as you say, from a different angle. They actually see you. You can't see yourself in quite the same way. So I think that that's very good advice. Good insight. How do you think we could identify skills or experiences that will really compound over time? You know, what are the sort of things people should be looking for?
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B
I suppose it's understanding what you mean by compounding. So I think my way that I often view that is you have the skills that allow you or facilitate you to do your everyday job, so to speak.
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Yes.
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B
When we're talking about compounding skills, from my perspective, it's what will help open doors and opportunities in the future. So often in my sort of specialism or certainly more widely across, you know, employment, it's communication styles, learning to adapt. In legal, for example, it's talking the language, it's being able to adapt that from a lawyer to maybe the director, but then also the finance team. So I think being versatile in communication, particularly with technology as well. So it's not just about the verbal communication, it's written communication. I think it's also being able to maybe influence people over a period of time. So showing that you're reliable, you're trustworthy, that you're credible in the work that you do or the direction that you want to go in. And I think those are the sort of things that will compound over time. Networking is again, another example of that.
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A
Is your organization prepared for what's coming next? At Reed Talent Solutions, we don't just manage contingent worker programs and fill roles. Through our RPO solutions, we future proof your workforce. From scaling operations to upskilling teams and navigating digital transformation, we are your strategic partner in building resilient future ready talent ecosystems. Visit retalentsolutions.com today to discover how we can help your business grow. Well, you're building, listening to you, I'm thinking you're building your own personal reputation.
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B
You are. Yes.
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A
It's not just brands that have reputations. People have reputations very importantly, which leads into another interesting area, which is the one of the personal brand. You know, a lot of people talk these days about how important it is to have a personal brand. But from what you've just said, it seems very important that that brand is first and foremost trusted.
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B
Yes.
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You're going to have a good career.
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B
Absolutely.
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Good personal brand. But how is that, how important is that this, this personal brand concept internally and externally these days? And what should people be thinking about concentrating on?
- [11:25]
B
I think it's a really good question and I think it's something I remember my early career, very early on, a partner talking about. Too many always stuck with me about that. Internal and personal. Internal, sorry, and external branding and what that looks like. And I think we immediately think external in that scenario. So we think about networking, we think about LinkedIn, which is a really good kind of platform to showcase you as an individual and your interests, projects that you're working on and your achievements along the way. But I also think the internal, which is your colleagues.
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A
So you mean internally in the organization as well? Because I mean certainly what your colleagues think about you. So how do you find out?
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B
How do I find out? So certainly within. I mean, Reed is such a large organization. It's what I love. It's one of the reasons why I joined is there's so many.
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A
You're always meeting new people.
- [12:21]
B
I love meeting new people and, and I get to work in different offices. But I've made a really big point of building relationships with people from all sorts of parts of the business. Whether that's like talent, whether that's our bd, you know, business development leaders, new people that have started within the business and to be someone that they can turn to if they want to talk about recruitment or they want to sound board something or, you know, they need a bit of a pick me up during the day. And I think what that has allowed me to do and what I see other people doing is it shows again, I'm trustworthy, I'm reliable, I'm someone that they can turn to. And I think again, that's another way that you can do that within a business.
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A
Yeah, I mean, I think what you're saying as well is that you become a key person in the team, you key team member. Team member. Which in terms of thinking about a career strategically is a good place to, to be.
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B
It's, it's also potentially opening doors for people to come to you to talk about future projects, to get your opinion.
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A
Sure. And it might create new opportunities.
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B
Exactly. Again, exactly. So it's, it's brings back to that piece of being strategical in where you're building those relationships with and then thinking even more long term. I always talk about with my candidates and family and friends is you never know where your path might cross over. So in 10 years time, that person or you might be someone a little bit more senior and it's a family friend that might be reaching out. So it's always important to leave a good impression and again, it could open an opportunity that you would never have. Have had the position to have if you weren't maybe as open and building that credibility.
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A
It's always important to leave a good impression. I like that thought and I've often thought, you know, it's important to leave well. You know, I mean, because no job is forever and when, when we leave, it's important to leave well and on good terms so that, you know, when our paths cross again, you know, that's not a destructive but a constructive interaction.
- [14:25]
B
Absolutely. I mean, we're a large organization, we're the UK that how many people in the population, you'd be surprised the number of stories I've spoken to candidates where a number of years down the line they've reconnected with someone that's had a transition within a business that has grown in a slightly different direction and it's sparked up a conversation. So yeah, we are a tiny little number in a large. Yeah. On the planet, but you just never know where things might cross over again.
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A
And they do cross over.
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B
They do.
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A
So keep that in mind, folks. Yeah, that's very true. One of the things I, I'm also observing is if you think about your career strategically, choosing the right place to work in terms of joining a company that has, you know, an upside that is growing is. Is showing potential for future success is also important, isn't it?
- [15:21]
B
I think that is definitely a factor to consider. If that's something that interests. That is something that's important to you as well. I think alongside that for some individuals it might be a smaller organization that has as like with Reed actually the environmental impact is obviously a really kind of a core within the Reid organization. For some individuals that might be a smaller organization. Some.
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A
So one of the things I'm thinking about is it, it's important to join an organization that's going to in a sense, carry you along with it.
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B
Yes.
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A
So if the, if the organization is growing or succeeding or showing real promise for the future, you know, it's more likely, isn't it, that your career will flourish because you can grow with it. You know, you more likely to get pay rises and promotions in a company that's flourishing than in one that's not. So is this Something you advise people to look out for when they think about who to apply for.
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B
And it's part of that piece of. There's two kind of two points here, I think from, from when I have my discussions or certainly what I've seen is we often expect clarity to happen when not doing anything to find out that information. So in order to get that clarity you have to take steps forward to do that. And in order to do some of that, it's doing that research which obviously you can access online and you know, from a recruiter, they can offer insights as well from a different angle. But it's also again, comes to that point of asking questions. You know, if you're going through like an interview position, you're doing an interview interaction, it's a two way dialogue, it's an opportunity for you as a candidate to ask the nitty gritty questions. Structure of the team, what the culture looks like, what plans are there in the future, what projects are ongoing going into that more high level interaction so you can come away with more information, information about not just where the business is now, but what does that look like in the future so that you can see if that aligns with that growth piece that you're looking for.
- [17:32]
A
Yeah, I mean the future is uncertain, but if it looks like it's got a good traject trajectory, that's a good place to start. I mean there's a lot of information available to people. And I was surprised. Years ago one of my colleagues came, told me that he was leaving and joining another recruiter, the small firm. And I said, you sure? And I remember looking this firm up on Companies House and they were making losses. And he said, oh, they're giving me shares. And I said, well, look at their accounts. The shares aren't worth anything. Are you sure? And anyway, he ended up coming back. But it was sort of interesting to me that he'd made these decisions without evaluating the financial health of the business. And you can do that quite easily. You can look up, I mean in the UK at least public, the available information on companies is easy to access through Companies House.
- [18:18]
B
It's a lot easier to access than people realize actually. And I think even it takes five minutes, it really, it really does. But again, it kind of comes back to that piece as well. Asking people in the industry, this is where you can use a recruiter, which again pivots in a really nice way in the sense of a recruiter has those relationships. They are an expert usually in their market. You could really ask them about what do they know about potentially the client? Sure, in an appropriate manner, of course. But if you really want to get insight in a slightly different angle, that's where you can use recruiters to be, I suppose, like an extension of your career, like a recruitment partner, not just there for when again that point of view, oh, I want to escape this position. I'm not happy for X, Y, Z. But actually maybe contacting a really good recruiter throughout maybe two, three times a year at least. Touch base to get insights into how the market's been. Obviously we know how the employment market has been generally, but there certainly has been shifts in certain sectors, the interim market, for example, the temporary positions. But also to get insights into salary benchmarking, locational differences. I think that's another way that you can kind of increase your strategical approach or direction or realign it dependent on what's going on in the market.
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A
So one question in my mind is how do you make good career decisions when you don't know what your end goal is, which is not unusual? I mean, who does?
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B
He does.
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A
Yeah, but is it reasonable to have an end goal?
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B
I think not. I think truthfully there's a lot of pressure from a very young age, I think, you know, school leavers going into university to have an end goal career of what that looks like. The reality is, I'm sure most people are your own connection, their careers have changed, they weren't too sure actually. They kind of went with the flow and it's just naturally progressed from there. I think what's more important is to kind of know which direction you potentially want to go in. And that again links back into that point I mentioned at the beginning of what energizes you? What do you enjoy being challenged? What's taking you away from your day? What don't you enjoy doing to kind of give you a bit more of a focus of where to maybe put a little bit more time. I think another thing that you can do, and it's certainly something I've done and I've advocated it a couple times, is spend 20, 30 minutes of your time and write down a list of exactly some of those questions that I've just raised, but also sort of maybe certain sectors that you might be interested in, so passions and hobbies, maybe even do some volunteering opportunities so that again you can meet people, speak to individuals, ask questions, experience different environments which might then help sort of align with, okay, this is the direction that maybe I'm leaning more to be, maybe more third sector. It could be maybe More financial services, for example. But if you don't ask the questions and if you don't take the steps, you're never really gonna know.
- [21:28]
A
You're not gonna find out. No, this is music's my is because it's, it's very much along the same lines that I wrote about in the book life's work.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Which is thereby 12 proven ways to fast track your career, which got lots of career hacks in that I learned along the way. No, I think that's really good advice because in the end it's a very personal thing. You know, what is it that motivates us and where does our internal sort of energy come from? Because that's what's most likely to power us forwards.
- [21:58]
B
Absolutely. I think it becomes innate. It's second nature. It's just who you are as an individual. And of course there are things in your work life that you think, oh, I don't want to deal with that admin. And that's natural. But I think if it's really consuming you and you're not enjoying your day to day. We spend a lot of time at work. You want to enjoy some of it at least, don't you? Yeah.
- [22:20]
A
Well, we have a saying at Reed that success, success is as easy as pie. P for passion, I for ideas and E for energy. So you're right on the button. I'm going to ask you two questions. I asked the end of all my podcasts. The first, because here at Reed we love Mondays. Sophia's. What is it that gets you up on a Monday morning?
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B
Technically, it will be the dog.
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A
The dog.
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B
He kind of navigates my.
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A
What kind of dog do you have?
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B
I've got a border terrier. So he will, he will start the morning with a love Mondays and then it's moving into work. So that's the thing that motivates me and what I enjoy with my work is the people that I'm around. I'm. I'm a part of a really strong people centric, energetic, motivated team. The Norwich team as well, more widely, most definitely are. And so when I've got that support from that element that really motivates me. But then that genuine interest and the candidates and the clients that I work with and seeing that things are having a genuine impact on their day to day life, that's something that motivates me and keeps me challenged.
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A
So very good. Well, I hope that will continue. My last question, which is related in the sense is from the book why you 101 interview questions. You'll never fear again is where do you see yourself in five years time.
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B
So I would be a hypocrite if I said I've got a very detailed plan. Again it comes back to I have an idea as a direction I want to be and I did this exercise a couple years ago and I am where I am now and in a much better place than I ever thought I would have been personally and professionally. I think in a couple of years I would like to grow my own team at some point. I think that would be quite nice. But as long as I'm in a challenging environment and supported and say yes to opportunities. I think this is an example of something a couple years ago would never have dreamt.
- [24:21]
A
Very good. Keep saying yes.
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B
I am so yes. Say yes to more opportunities.
- [24:26]
A
Keep saying yes and I hope we can help make that happen to you. Thank you very much. Thanks for coming in. Nice talking to you. Thank you Sophie for joining me on All About Business Shorts. I'm your host James Reed, Chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. Career strategy is something I've written about extensively in my books, life's work, why you and the 7 second CV. You'll find links and resources in the the Show Notes. Thank you for listening and see you next time.