7. Drive big business by understanding your customers on a local level | Andy Cook, Centre for Social Justice

Summary

Podcast Summary: James Reed: All About Business
Episode 7: Drive Big Business by Understanding Your Customers on a Local Level | Andy Cook, Centre for Social Justice
Release Date: December 16, 2024

In Episode 7 of "James Reed: All About Business," host James Reed engages in a profound conversation with Andy Cook, CEO of the Centre for Social Justice (CSJ). The discussion delves into the intersection of business, philanthropy, and social justice, emphasizing the pivotal role of understanding customers and communities at a local level to drive meaningful change.

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1. Introduction to Andy Cook and the Centre for Social Justice

James Reed opens the episode by highlighting Andy Cook's extensive background in founding and leading award-winning charities focused on uplifting disadvantaged youths and addressing pressing social issues in the UK.

Notable Quote:

James Reed [00:00]: "Small charities and small businesses have a lot in common. They form the backbone of our society and are often started by passionate innovators dedicated to solving particular problems."

Andy elaborates on the CSJ’s mission to bridge gaps between businesses, philanthropists, charities, and government to support the UK's most vulnerable populations.

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2. CSJ’s Role in Driving Policy and Social Reform

Andy Cook describes CSJ as an "ideas business," which gathers successful models from small charities across the UK and lobbies for their implementation at a governmental level. This approach has led to significant reforms, including the Modern Slavery Act and the overhaul of the welfare system into Universal Credit.

Notable Quotes:

Andy Cook [02:25]: "We are in the ideas business... we average about a third of our ideas get taken up by government with quite a few billion pounds of investment or policy shift."

Andy Cook [04:49]: "We were the people that created the Modern Slavery Act... and the whole change to welfare came as a result of the CSJs."

These reforms demonstrate CSJ’s effectiveness in transforming frontline innovations into nationwide policies, effectively connecting grassroots initiatives with the corridors of power.

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3. The Vital Role of Small Charities

The conversation shifts to the significance of small charities, which, like small businesses, are deeply embedded in their communities and possess an intimate understanding of local needs. Andy emphasizes that while large charities dominate funding, tens of thousands of small charities are the true lifelines for local communities.

Notable Quotes:

Andy Cook [05:42]: "They [small charities] are often absolutely embedded into their communities. Families know them, trust is there and rife."

James Reed [05:20]: "Small businesses create jobs more than anybody else in the economy. So these small charities are much more in tune and in touch with the way people are living."

He highlights the challenges small charities face in gaining visibility and resources, advocating for better infrastructure to support their growth and impact.

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4. Enhancing Support for Small Charities through Fundraising Platforms

Andy Cook discusses the impact of platforms like Big Give Match Funding, which James Reed is associated with, in helping small charities raise essential funds by matching donations from donors. This model ensures that funds make a significant impact, especially during crises like the pandemic.

Notable Quotes:

Andy Cook [08:35]: "The Big Give... brings out what can be a sleepy market because someone's putting up the money and matching feels kind of stronger."

Andy Cook [09:25]: "The top... it cost £243 million to furlough 33,000 staff. Whereas the small guys didn't put themselves on standby... They are mission first all the time."

He underscores the resilience and dedication of small charities, which often operate without the extensive resources of larger organizations.

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5. Building Sustainable Models and Authentic Mission Alignment

Andy delves into how CSJ maintains its values and mission as it grows, emphasizing the importance of hiring individuals who align with the organization's core values rather than merely possessing the necessary skills.

Notable Quotes:

Andy Cook [13:24]: "When we employ, if we employ for attitude, train for skills, is there someone who's got a value alignment?"

Andy Cook [13:55]: "If their opener is 'Can I work from home?' I'm starting to think, hello."

This philosophy ensures that the organization remains authentic and mission-driven, fostering a culture committed to social justice.

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6. Addressing National Challenges: Inactivity, Education, and Mental Health

The discussion shifts to major societal challenges, including inactivity (nearly 9 million people inactive in the UK), education gaps, and mental health issues exacerbated by the pandemic.

Notable Quotes:

Andy Cook [21:35]: "We've got 8.8, nearly 9 million people inactive in the country now... there's 9,200 odd jobs available right now."

Andy Cook [26:32]: "The primary issue now is actually kids who are missing from school right now... 'ghost children.'"

Andy Cook [28:55]: "Social prescribing... move people into social situations like sport, like work, like others where doctors."

Andy advocates for social prescribing as a solution to mental health, promoting community engagement over medical interventions.

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7. Fostering Collaboration Between Business and Philanthropy

Andy and James explore the synergistic relationship between businesses and small charities. Andy highlights how businesses can bolster small charities not just financially but also through strategic support and expertise.

Notable Quotes:

Andy Cook [31:24]: "It's not just about the check... small guys can get brains and brawn in business understanding."

Andy Cook [33:17]: "The biggest strength I think that did is flush out businesses to engage with schools on a whole range of different things."

He encourages businesses to actively participate in local initiatives, education, and mentorship to cultivate a robust community ecosystem.

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8. Innovating Philanthropy and Enhancing Infrastructure

The dialogue touches on the need for better infrastructure to connect donors with local charities. Andy describes the Centre for Social Justice Foundation, which assists individuals in directing their philanthropic efforts towards impactful local organizations.

Notable Quotes:

Andy Cook [30:08]: "We help numbers of people do their philanthropy and find stuff in either geographies or on those five pathway areas that are often innovative, small that no one would ever known about."

He stresses the importance of infrastructural support in democratizing philanthropy, making it easier for donors to find and support smaller, high-impact organizations.

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9. Future Directions and Concluding Insights

As the conversation nears its end, Andy reflects on the future of social justice initiatives, emphasizing the need for localized solutions and the power of storytelling to highlight successful grassroots efforts.

Notable Quotes:

Andy Cook [35:00]: "Someone's always solving these problems somewhere... business leaders are actually driving the change here."

Andy Cook [38:46]: "What are we pushing on with rather than what are we just keeping afloat."

Andy’s personal reflections reveal a commitment to living a purpose-driven life, focusing on actions that bring him alive and contribute to societal betterment.

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Key Takeaways

• Bridge Between Frontline and Policy: CSJ effectively translates grassroots innovations into national policies, driving substantial social reforms.

• Support for Small Charities: Emphasizing the critical role of small, community-embedded charities and advocating for better funding mechanisms and infrastructure to support their growth.

• Collaborative Philanthropy: Encouraging businesses to engage deeply with local charities, not only financially but also through strategic support and expertise.

• Addressing Major Social Issues: Highlighting the importance of tackling inactivity, education gaps, and mental health through community-driven initiatives and social prescribing.

• Sustainable and Authentic Growth: Maintaining mission alignment and authenticity as organizations scale, ensuring that growth does not dilute core values.

• Innovative Fundraising and Philanthropy Models: Promoting platforms and foundations that democratize philanthropy, making it easier for donors to support impactful local initiatives.

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Final Thoughts

Andy Cook’s insights underscore the transformative potential of understanding and engaging with communities at a local level. By fostering strong collaborations between businesses, small charities, and policymakers, significant strides can be made in addressing some of the UK's most pressing social challenges. This episode serves as a compelling call to action for leaders across sectors to harness their resources and influence to drive meaningful, sustainable change.

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Links and Further Information:

• Centre for Social Justice: thecenterforsocialjustice.org
• Big Give: biggive.org

For more episodes and insights, subscribe to "James Reed: All About Business" and explore actionable advice to enhance your business or career.

Transcript

[James Reed]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. Small charities and small businesses have a lot in common. They form the backbone of our society and are often started by passionate innovators dedicated to solving particular problems. But with large organizations soaking up funds, resources and attention, how can these innovators grow their organizations while having an impact on communities in need? Joining me today on All About Business is Andy Cook. Andy is CEO of the center for Social justice, an award winning organization that aims to solve Britain's most pressing social issues through political change. Hailing from Leeds, Andy founded another award winning charity that helped disadvantaged youths across the Midlands. Since then, he's become an advisor to several leading philanthropists, making him the perfect person to talk to us about driving change and making a real difference. So, Andy, thank you very much for coming in to talk to me today. You're the CEO of the center for Social Justice. You're proudly from Leeds, I must mention that.

[Andy Cook]

Amen to that one.

[James Reed]

And you work with businesses, charities, philanthropists, policymakers?

[Andy Cook]

Yeah, I run the Centre of Social justice, which is a think tank that operates kind of between, I would say business, philanthropy, charity and the government and politics. And our aim, our particular aim in that is to focus on those most struggling in the UK, the bottom 20%, those that are detached often from job and from school, and try and think about creative ideas to get them back in to fulfill their potential. So we scour the country about to do with models that are working, that are changing lives and we kind of put those together and we lobby government using different political players, using media, using good old fashioned coffee and beer in the kind of bars to say this is the stuff that needs to happen. And we've got a proud track record of getting big reforms with whatever government is empowering of the day.

[James Reed]

So you're in the ideas business.

[Andy Cook]

So we are in the ideas business. Though I do have to slight disclaimer, often the ideas aren't ours. We spend our time going and listening and learning to things that are working across the country. The reason we're quite different, I would say, though I have to say that comes with a kind of slight thing that I'm massively biased because I love what we do, is that we've got an army of small charities up and down the country. We've got regional offices and people who go out and listen and learn to the front lines of poverty fighting in this country. We listen and learn to them of what they're doing and how they're solving things and we bring it back to Westminster. The kind strap line we use is that we connect the back streets of this nation with the corridors of power on year in, year out, we average about a third of our ideas get taken up by government with quite a few billion pounds of investment or policy shift, which is really exciting to have done. And most of that stuff comes from the front line. Some ideas are we were the people that create the Modern Slavery Act. As an example, we had a load of small charities coming to us saying, why is no one talking about this? Why is no one fixing this? And so we lifted that as an issue in the public conscience and then gave it. At the time it was Theresa May was Home Secretary and gave it to her as an act that we need to take this seriously. There's big other things. The whole change to welfare came as a result of the CSJs. The CSJ and hearing from charities was trying to challenge that notion. Of course money's important, but often those most struggling are exiting real issues in four or five different areas. Educational failure, family breakdown, debt, addiction and worklessness. So one of the big areas the CSJ made its name on was analyzing the welfare system as it was 20 years ago and seeing there's all these different benefit streams going in. It wasn't one computerized, digitalized thing and it didn't highlight work as the best route out of poverty. And so the CSJ reformed the whole of how that operated into a thing called universal credit, which essentially became the new welfare system. So this is huge. Years and years of pushing this massive government thing that actually stood up really well through the pandemic. We were the only place across Europe that had our welfare system digitalised, that brought all benefits together. So you're not going to one office for housing benefit, another for your kind of sickness benefit, anything else, and it all comes and works on a household basis. So that was another major reform that the CSJ drove through and still keeps trying to tinker with to this day to make it better.

[James Reed]

I like your phrase. From the back streets to the corridors of power. I mean, those are two huge examples. Modern slavery and the whole universal credit system.

[Andy Cook]

There's some tiddlers as well, which we're as, as proud of. And there's some things that we've not solved, frankly, that our small charities often act as canaries in the mine telling us what the real issues are. And there's some things where we've seen and flagged as issues but as yet have not got over the line in any meaningful change. So we're constantly fighting battles for big ideas and landing them, but constantly, you know, often we don't get there.

[James Reed]

You've talked about these small charities. In my world, small businesses create jobs more than any anybody else in the economy. So these small charities you' are much more in tune and in touch with the way people are living. Could you explain how you find them? What sort of organizations are they? What sort of people run them and why are they so good at what they do?

[Andy Cook]

I mean, I do think it totally mirrors the business world in lots of ways that there's a load of the big boys that operate. 84% of giving in this country goes to just 4% of the charitable market, which if you step back, it's quite a staggering figure. That 4% Hoover up all the resource. Yet tens of thousands of small charities are operating in localities and often you'll find these groups are the ones where one minute they're cleaning the toilet, the next they're trying to get their budget done. One minute they're kind of saving the life and inspiring a young person, the next they're trying to work out how on earth to do a flyer. They're often absolutely embedded into their communities. Families know them, trust is there and rife. And frankly those that are most struggling, often the trust is there because they know it's not just a job to them. It's not just a. That's why things like mentoring, by the way work so well because it's the person that's mentoring people know that they are volunteering and they're real volunteers.

[James Reed]

They're not salaried.

[Andy Cook]

So lots of them are have salaries. But I guess I'm kind of saying it's the same type of feel that often the small local ones are trusted by often the families that need them most because they're not just some distant professional coming in to try and solve an issue in a 12 week course.

[James Reed]

We're delighted that you're watching this episode. Please hit the subscribe button if you'd like to receive more insights and actionable advice that will help your business and or career. So you talked about those five areas that affect society, particularly addiction, debt, worklessness. Do these charities tend to focus on those areas?

[Andy Cook]

For us, we're constantly trying to find the best small charities working in education or family support or debt. And so we've got a model where we've got regional offices. I mean office is quite a grand word. We've got a person in a region who's got a car and sometimes a dog and their job is to drive around and find the best thing that no one's seen or heard. That best debt charity that's changing the lives of people or that best family support structure. And our job is to try and bring them together into our network so we can learn from them on a policy front and then we can connect them with philanthropists and business because that's the other thing we do. We don't only try and listen and learn and glean their ideas to lobby government to do something bigger and bolder and different. We also try and be a bit of a kind of matchmaker towards philanthropists and businesses who so often don't know where to go. You know that 84% going to 4% of the charities is so often because it's well worn paths, big brands of these enormous charities that gobble sworn up and it's an easier way to do it. Whereas we try and break that barrier down.

[James Reed]

So we try and help small charities raise funds through the Big Give Match funding platform. So please, please tell people about that.

[Andy Cook]

I'm a fully fledged signed up disciple of the Big Give. I'm not just saying that because I'm sat with you here, James, but genuinely and what that does so powerfully is it brings out what can be a sleepy market at times because someone's putting up the money and matching feel kind of stronger. And where my encouragement and my plea to listeners would be is go and look for where that money can make the most impact. It goes furthest with the little guys. You know, some staggering stats during the pandemic. The top I think it was either 10 or 100 charities furloughed 33,000 staff. It cost £243 million to do that. Whereas the small guys didn't put themselves on standby or asleep. They who are absolutely out there kind of bending rules to be alongside people. The little guys, it's mission first all the time, not organizational safety first.

[James Reed]

I remember being it being suggested to me that we should put the Big Give to sleep. I said no way. You know, this is the moment we've got to step up and help people and raise funds and do stuff. And we work with the National Emergencies Trust to obviously support a lot of local organizations. Now and you said at the beginning that you started one of these charities. Could you just tell me a little bit about that?

[Andy Cook]

I grew up in Leeds. To get that in. I have to mention Leeds about eight times in every kind of thing that I do. And I ended up moving further south, went to university in Sheffield and then I went down to Loughborough. So further, much to my mother's horror, because I was getting further and further away from the epicenter of the world, as she calls it, and I ended up down there living close to a really rough estate called the Warwick Way Estate. And I remember meeting two lads there, Ash and Terry, absolute belters of young men who in a sense, had I watched what happened to their life? They both had older siblings in prison, their mums were on their own and struggling under things that fallen out of school and they were doing sod all. But yet they were the brightest, most articulate, funny. I mean, they mercilessly took the mickey out of me lads and I thought, there but the grace of God go I. You know, I've just lost my dad. Yet these guys have never known their dad and they're on their own and there's only. There's one path that seems to be there for them. They had no motivation, there was no. There's kind of infrastructure, wasn't there? So very simply, me and my friend set up a group that tried to link them with people in the community who were doing jobs and trying to get them into apprenticeships, trying to get them. Get them mentors to give them some stability. And you know what? It really worked. I couldn't believe it. It was the first thing that ever worked for me, but it was. We linked them with amazing people that kind of gave them love and care and a bit of a push at times and got them into jobs. And the charity is called 2020 and it started on one in Loughborough. In fact, it started life as called Charnwood 2020 because that was the area. But then it started to grow, more people got interested in it and then we won this big award from the Centre for Social justice, which is now where I work, got this award and a 20 grand prize and a sponsor. And then that made the charity take off and went. And we ended up growing it all across the region.

[James Reed]

Fantastic. And what happened to Terry and Ash, do you know?

[Andy Cook]

We're still going. So Ash is in Morrisons now, working in Loughborough. He's manager. I mean, he's so on the straight and narrow now. I'd. Last time I went back there, I Tried to see if I could get a bit of a friends and family discount. He told me to bug her off. I couldn't believe it.

[James Reed]

Good for him.

[Andy Cook]

Yeah, he kept strong. He kept strong. I could be so. And married, two children. And Ash. Ash is the same.

[James Reed]

What's interesting there is employers, you said, gave them love, care and push and they were prepared to give them a chance by the sound of things. That's so important, people listening. Because I always say, you know, someone gave me a chance. Someone gave you a chance. So important to give other people a chance.

[Andy Cook]

But you know what? Businesses just being good businesses, that is transformational in this country. It really is. I remember the csj, one of the first reports when I got there is already underway. We did about business and business for good, or something like this it was called. And the first thing it just said is, do you know what? Businesses being good are transformational in this nation. Giving someone a chance who wouldn't perhaps normally have it, getting alongside them, not kicking them out at the first mistake, but actually using it as a teachable moment, doing some of the other stuff like the community building stuff, having sports teams or those kind of things, operating from the business, they are transformational not just for individuals, but then for their own families and for the areas in which they live. So we are huge fans of business at csj and I personally am because they are what have changed the lives of a lot of our young people. And that does a huge amount to their own self esteem, their own financial management.

[James Reed]

How does an organization as it grows, how does it hold on to its sort of values and mission in a way that is authentic?

[Andy Cook]

You know, that kind of phrase of who you have on the bus is always the point. We used to use a phrase and still do now. When we employ, if we employ for attitude, train for skills, is there someone who's got a value alignment? This coming into our business even now, to this day, I make sure I have time with every single person. I mean who's, who's applying, who joins us just to try and get to grips. Are they in this for the mission that we're on now? I take that can be very different in business especially.

[James Reed]

No, but once you ask them, just out of interest, so. So you want to check that they're with you on the program.

[Andy Cook]

I'll often start by asking them what questions they have. For me, that's how you start. That's how I start. If their opener is can I work from home? I'm starting to think, hello.

[James Reed]

If they're Second on the holidays.

[Andy Cook]

Oh, yeah. Second one is. Is it? Yeah. How many is a bank holiday is the time in between Christmas and New Year? Classically, I'm thinking, oh, double hello, you know, are you here for what we're after here? So I'll often start with that because it. I'm in their hunger and seeing the whites of their eyes.

[James Reed]

So what would be a good answer to that question?

[Andy Cook]

I've had a couple of people, some young ones come in recently saying, how long are you staying around for at this place? What are you after in the next? What's your next big win? What's the big thing that you've not cracked that you want to crack? Putting me on the spot in that way. I love that. The kind of hunger.

[James Reed]

So curiosity there.

[Andy Cook]

And a real sort of curiosity, hunger, you know, desire, in a way.

[James Reed]

I like that. I've never heard that, though. Ask me the questions first. What you got to ask me? I've got to use that. And what else do you do?

[Andy Cook]

I have to say, I learned from a very dear friend of mine who run an extremely big business where we were recruiting for. We were both on the board of a different charity and we were recruiting for a new CEO. And he often started by saying, listen, I'm just going to level with you. These are our three concerns about you. What's your. We want to give you a right of reply on why they should not be concerned.

[James Reed]

That was the opener.

[Andy Cook]

That was the opener. And I thought. I thought that's a bit punchy.

[James Reed]

So if you've got an interview with Andy, you might get one or the other. You can't start with both, can you? So that's useful. So do you feel that the larger organizations maybe aren't playing that in the same way?

[Andy Cook]

Is that where I'm interested is people that are looking to the mission. So often what you see in the little guys is their question will be, how do we put ourselves out of business? Now, I know this is different to the business podcast.

[James Reed]

No, that's interesting.

[Andy Cook]

But how do we not be needed? In a sense, we want to lose numbers, which I think is a really profound question. Whereas I think a lot of the big boys end up becoming how do we keep ourselves strong? Because they drink the Kool Aid so much of them being the most important things going, it ends up meaning that they, at all costs, will say that they're needed. Now, I'm not saying that their work isn't needed and their infrastructure's become so thirsty they have to keep pouring petrol in and I see that as different in the small guys. Often the best small guys of course back what they're delivering, of course back their model. But actually you're asking the question, how are we not needed? And that fundamentally changes the way the organizations run.

[James Reed]

That's a fundamental difference between a business and a charity. Actually. That charity, by doing a good job, eradicates itself. If it's business, by doing a good job will continue to grow because more customers come towards it, which is very interesting. And some charities maybe end up behaving more like businesses.

[Andy Cook]

And it comes from good heart often that we are solving this and we want to do it more. But then you do look at how big these things become. And actually if they're, are they really asking themselves are they the best answer to the question? I would say that a lot of the big boys are not looking at where the best infrastructure to deliver their mission is, because it's not always, always through themselves.

[James Reed]

Hi, I hope you're enjoying this episode of All About Business. Next April, our charity partners, Big Give, will be running their annual Green Match Fund where all the money raised will go to environmental charities around the world. If you know a green charity that would benefit from doubling their donations, get them to register by January 16, 2025. The link is in the show notes. Okay, back to the episode. A lot of these charities have very sort of dynamic local leaders. That's what's happening on the one side and then on the other, you said 84% of the money went to 4% of the organizations. How could that be made to work better so that the dynamic local leaders receive more?

[Andy Cook]

There's a fundamental question in this country about infrastructure, about in terms of for the little guys, there is no infrastructure. It's very hard for business, even local businesses, to know what exactly is out there. There has to be a to better infrastructure. And equally I would say it's how is it from us who are running businesses or wherever where we can proactively engage locally rather than just expect them to come to us. And I would say that's about how business and leaders can be proactive on a few areas and there's some better infrastructure coming, but it's not there yet.

[James Reed]

We're looking at this with Big Give actually sort of thinking about regional supporting regional organizations and how businesses can connect, connect with them better perhaps through the Big Give in the future. It's difficult for people to give money away to local organizations because they certainly don't know who they are, who the good ones are or how to. How to find them. Is there a future for some sort of digital service that points people to things?

[Andy Cook]

I mean, absolutely, there is, yeah. And it's already happening. There's a number of different groups that have done it. There's a. There's an amazing setup called Giving Is Great, set up by John Spears. And what it does is it. It looks at who else has funded it as a kind of quality assurance mark. So if big givers ended up some money there or children in need or, you know, that they've had to go through some serious hoops.

[James Reed]

Yeah, because we do due diligence.

[Andy Cook]

Due diligence. And so if that someone else has given that, on the whole, it kind of might be all right. And then you can segment it down to local areas. It's a very clever way to kind of bring that together.

[James Reed]

So how do people find that if they want to.

[Andy Cook]

So that one's just the. That one's just on the website of giving his. Great, great. It's starting to build, I would suggest.

[James Reed]

No, the Giving is great is. Is a good idea, isn't it? And obviously the big give as well. With the match funding opportunities we put in, we're trying to reach more charities. Looking forwards, do you think that business should be engaging more with philanthropy? I mean, we're trying to encourage more businesses to become what we call philanthropy companies. And we find that is motivational for people who want to work in the business. Customers, actually, they like working with us because of that. And, you know, our dividends then go into the foundation which goes out all these different local organizations. Is that a model you're seeing at all elsewhere in the uk it seems.

[Andy Cook]

More prevalent in other countries and actually there's enormous power. The other thing I think there's enormous power in that happening is the power of the brand in this kind of world. In particular, in communities where classic things are not trusted as much anymore, you know, not as many people go to church. The classic things in communities are kind of not there as much. The youth clubs aren't there as much. What brands do you trust? I think, think as a kind of corporate strategy, if you like being really branded locally with some local. Local kind of delivery partners, if you like, can do the business some real good. And it's a talent finder. I am convinced that up and down this country we've got an army of talent that is. That is just desperate to be found unearthed in our estates, in our communities. The storyteller about Ash and Terry, they were as sharp as you like. They Just needed a chance they would make a great employer. And I think that local coming together of business enables the brand to get stronger. And I think you can find talent ducking and diving quality that you, you won't see often coming out of universities nowadays.

[James Reed]

So I want to ask you about that because in, in Britain at the moment we've got this issue with inactivity. Large numbers of young people and older people and disconnected from the workforce. This is obviously something you've been exploring. What ideas do you have for the. Could perhaps embrace to help address this?

[Andy Cook]

I think this is the biggest issue going on right now. We've got 8.8, nearly 9 million people inactive in the country now. 2.8 million of those are signed off work sick of which half is on mental health reasons.

[James Reed]

That's not sustainable, is it? I mean because the other, the other 80% can't support these numbers of people.

[Andy Cook]

It's not sustainable. And yet there is again, using the Manchester example, there's 9,200 odd jobs available right now. Average salary I think is on 29,000 of those jobs. So these are, you know, there's jobs there, there's people far from the labor market. So I think that's the biggest issue facing this country. That and the, and the education system and the missing children from schools, which we can talk about in a bit. What we're trying to do on that. We've been looking at this for quite a while. This exploded through the pandemic, particularly on the grounds of sickness. Now how businesses stay engaged with people if they're turning off sick is a key part I think of this. And how do businesses do that work with occupational health or however it may be to try and keep people in, even if it's a day or two, et cetera, rather than them going out and ending up being long term sick. But secondly, how do they engage regionally with some of the actors that are there trying to find people who are inactive and on the kind of welfare system at the moment?

[James Reed]

Well, there are programs like Restart and the Work and Health Programme read in partnership. One of our businesses is involved in that helps people progress back into work. So employers should reach out to them. 100 there are a number of companies that do that because that service is free to the employer. We've heard from people who've used it employers that those people are very, become very good members of the team because they do. They're very appreciative of having a job.

[Andy Cook]

And they're absolutely, they're loyal, they're Loyal, they're focused, they've been given a second chance. Anyone who gets a second chance in that sense will take it and they become some of your best stuff.

[James Reed]

So there's a lot that business can do here, isn't there really, to sort of try? Because I suppose the other option for business is to look for people from overseas to come, which has been happening as well.

[Andy Cook]

Yeah. And this is the big debate in a way, do we, do you pull the migration lever, the immigration lever, or do we try and kind of find people that are close, close to home in localities of which there is a lot of. And that will always be, you know, and I know that has to be on skills based and all the rest. I'm not kind of naive to that. But there is a whole lot of talent, talent in our communities and our estates.

[James Reed]

During the pandemic there was a scheme called Kickstart and it's quite interesting because I think it was for young people who hadn't been to college or university, who'd been out of work for six months. Several of these people came into our business and I often visit our offices and I'm often chatting people and that's. When do you sign there? I came in on Kickstart and I hear that a lot. I'm thinking this is a really good program because there are people who perhaps wouldn't have known about us or we wouldn't have known about them. And it's exactly an example of, of what you're talking about here.

[Andy Cook]

And some of these schemes can work brilliantly in that way. And again you find young people who are hungry. There is a lot out there. So yeah, more power to it. In fact, one of our big. We've just, we brought the CSJ's 20 year anniversary this year and so we brought out a paper of kind of 20 years. Where's everything at? In poverty. It's called two nations and slight spoiler alert. And this was total cross party endeavor. So we had two Lib Dems, we had two Labour, two Conservative and then people like Lord Mervyn King on the board, the ex governor of the banking, to analyze where the big issues were. And then we brought another paper out called A United Nation. We brought that out about three weeks ago with 50 big ideas to solve these issues that were not about pouring money into things. In fact, they're all cost neutral in that way because we know the kind of government of the day says that there's no cash. We were deliberately trying to drive that agenda and loads of the things that we found one of the big things on employment was you could devolve a load of the central, central government, the Whitehall money into localities. 6 billion on the kind of kickstart things are all designed from Whitehall, but drive things locally. And that's another business principle, I guess. And you'll know better than anyone, James, about, you know, you have kind of centers of businesses that often operate in London or wherever else it might be. But then how do you get the regions to have their own absolute identity? The same model, absolutely, but how they get across. And it's no different in policy making for government, because what's needed in Manchester or Leeds was very different to what. What's needed around Somerset or whatever. And that's where we think there could be real opportunity.

[James Reed]

No, that's very interesting. Now, the other big issue you're sort of grappling with, you said, was education. And we see a number of issues with the mismatch with education and what employers are looking for, I suppose, you know, whether it's people coming out of universities with qualifications that employers don't find particularly relevant to what they do, or if it's people who haven't had the opportunity to do any sort of further education really at all. What are you seeing as the key issues here?

[Andy Cook]

The primary issue now, from our point of view, is actually kids who are missing from school right now. During the pandemic, we did a huge paper and we termed this phrase ghost children, which was taken up quite significantly. Now, these are children that are out of school over 50% of the time, operate from primary school up to 16. So I think that's one of the big issues. But you're absolutely right. The other big issue is this kind of phrase that they've used about parity of esteem between universal route and I would say skills route and apprenticeships and how you absolutely say this is not just a secondary thing if you don't. If you're not going to uni, but a primary thing and how we value that in our system. I agree.

[James Reed]

We've started through Reed Environment, so energy academies, where we're teaching people retrofit skills. And, you know, people with those skills in London can earn 70 pounds an hour and you can learn them in six months.

[Andy Cook]

The green agenda is exciting for the. That we did a bit. We did a paper on that same thing with loads of the housing providers. The green agenda should be turned to a skills agenda.

[James Reed]

So is there a work ethic issue here? Because you. You talked about sort of kids not going to school and in the old days, that was totally expected. And then you know, association with working from home and you know, the sort of pandemic changing that in some way. And then at the same time we've got the baby boomer generation leaving the workforce and then the sort of new generation Gen Z coming in.

[Andy Cook]

I don't know if it's a work ethic. I think it's a. Children don't know best. And we are now seemingly to put that actually power and responsibility almost in the hands of young people saying, well hang on, what do they want and all. And of course you've got to listen and learn of what's going on. But often it's kind of, I think it's kind of gone too far that driving authority in families. It's almost about rights now and not responsibilities. It's how do we move this from the kind of I to the we again? I think, I think because it's gone too far over to the I, the individualistic society rather than talking about things as families and homes in that way.

[James Reed]

And communities and communities where everyone contributes, everyone contributes.

[Andy Cook]

And you know what, when you contribute it takes a bit out of you. It's part of it. You don't always gain.

[James Reed]

No, but it's so important for well being I think totally. When you hear about so many people with mental health issues, well, so they.

[Andy Cook]

Talk about kind of social prescribing thing which is never fully used.

[James Reed]

Well, talk me through.

[Andy Cook]

Social prescribing is basically rather than throwing everyone into kind of pills and into rooms where you sit on your own because you say you've got a mental health issue and I'm not demeaning things that are really there, genuinely there. You move people into social situations like sport, like work, like others where doctors. Because essentially say do you know what? This is the best for you. But it's ha. It doesn't happen enough.

[James Reed]

No. And I've seen that myself through people coming on our programs for unemployment, who've been out of work for many years, who are supported into a new job, want to get a new job and they're transformed by that experience.

[Andy Cook]

Where's it easier for a doctor to go to? Is it easier to go and prescribe a medical intervention or is it easy to say, do you know what, here's some social things that will absolutely change your life because if something bad happens that undoubtedly comes back on the doctor in that way. But we would say that that is where we should be starting and really doubling down on because that's what will change things Sport, community action, jobs, being in school, that stuff really matters.

[James Reed]

You also have the center for Social Justice Foundation. Can you tell me a little bit about that and what you do with that?

[Andy Cook]

Yeah, I love it. We created it a couple of years ago because, frankly, different people fund us to do our work with businesses, individuals, trusts and foundations. And we found more and more people coming and saying, I want to give something. I don't know where to give. I grew up in Hartlepool Pool, I've made my money in London, I've gone back to Hartlepool and I can't believe what I've seen. How do I access that rather than just giving down well worn pass because I go to a dinner, I have a few too many baby shams and I buy a cricket bat for 10 grand in an auction. You know, I'm tired of doing that kind of stuff. So we wanted to create. We had all these charities that are feeding our work and said, look, can we create a mini infrastructure to try and take a bit of a bite out of that 84% to 4% figure? So we ended up getting a few people to help us and fund this infrastructure. And now we help numbers of people do their philanthropy and find stuff in either, you know, geographies or on those five pathway areas that I told you that, that are often innovative, small that no one would ever known about.

[James Reed]

Well, I would urge anyone listening to make contact with you if that was.

[Andy Cook]

We'd love to help. We'd love to help.

[James Reed]

So there are more and more ways for people to connect with local organizations to support small charities.

[Andy Cook]

It's not just about the check. I do think the small guys then can get brains and brawn in business understanding. You know, you connect with a small guy. I remember at 2020 we had different business leaders coming in, helping us do our business, planning our strategy, shaping our budgetary cycles. In how we did it, it was absolute revelation to us. It's what helped us kind of strengthen what we're doing.

[James Reed]

That's because you asked them to do.

[Andy Cook]

Yeah, I've been doing. Well done. I'm Yorkshire lad. I was asking for everything I could get.

[James Reed]

So you made yourself known and local and they. And I think people do want to help, don't they? So, you know, any charities listening, don't be shy to go and ask.

[Andy Cook]

This is where, you know, often the, you know, charity days will paint a wall for a day and I'll say, absolutely, it's good stuff, but, goodness me, the richness of talent in businesses that charities want to partner with is there. So I'd also say to business leaders, you know, go and say, make yourself available. And it's great training stuff if you've got groups of people in the business that you're wanting to train. I remember actually I did a thing with ABF Foods. My sister worked there. She worked for Twinings. They did this graduates course every year where they found the 20 graduates and they attached them to different charities and normally they went to a load of the big household names and they helped them in strategic planning. My charity 2020, because my sister got me in, I ended up having like the head of Hovis, someone big in hat Twinings, all descending on this estate in Loughborough saying, how can we help? It revolutionized everything. We got a load of freebies, we got some money, we got different things. But goodness me, they're revol revolutionized that business plan. It was amazing. And I would say that businesses can do that, but often that's best felt on the small and local.

[James Reed]

And what about businesses and schools? Because we have quite a lot of evidence that where businesses have been more involved in the education of young people, even if it's just going into the school and talking about what they do or what opportunities there are, it supports young people progressing afterwards.

[Andy Cook]

100. I mean, honestly, the kind of, you know, academization program, the biggest strength I think that did is flush out businesses to engage with schools on a whole range of different things. Business leaders to get involved in the education system, we need more of it, not less. And again, the power of the brand thing I think is important here. And this is where it plays into a business favor. If you are linking a local business with a local school, then what you see is the parents engaging with that brand. The job applications for the business have got higher and higher and higher that knowledge of what it's doing, where it's at. So I think there's great payoff for both. And the kids then see there's a future because the parents working and there's jobs available to them.

[James Reed]

I mean, businesses I believe can create value and contribute to social justice. And many businesses are very trusted in communities totally.

[Andy Cook]

And then it gives added oomph to the education system.

[James Reed]

Thinking about these big challenges. It's a model for one, one connecting with the other. What should people be thinking about?

[Andy Cook]

What we do is, I think you've got to find something that people could come around together. What's the issue you want to solve sometimes? So often things start in a locality. You've got your focus You've got your need. What's the scale of this issue and if we're able to solve it, both locally as well as nationally, what's the payoff here? You then combine around the local target, target and a bigger target, focus on what you're wanting to do, convening around that thing and anyone who's not really up for it, they don't have to be there. And then making the case for change, both on a political level, small P or big national politics, as well as an impact.

[James Reed]

So real clarity around the problem to be solved and then convening a really committed group of people with, I guess, varied skills and yeah. Expertise to contribute and then taking that out with a very clear message to people who might step in and support.

[Andy Cook]

Certainly in politics and in policy, very small rooms decide very big decisions. Ultimately, it always gets to a top table of a few people.

[James Reed]

Very small rooms, very big decision.

[Andy Cook]

They do. Often it's about a scalpel situation of who is in that room and how do we get to them with convincing them that this. You have to do this to change the nation or to serve your political aspiration or to serve your company.

[James Reed]

So you need to know your argument and have it very well rehearsed and prepared, but you also need to know who the decision makers are.

[Andy Cook]

Exactly. So you need to know your. And this is often the thing you see this time and time again in lobbying and in charities. Just because it's a worthy and it's a necessary cause, they think it's just got to happen and it doesn't. And that's the sad thing. It should happen, but it doesn't. So you've got to absolutely drive private to who. Who is those decision makers? What are they going to respond to in that way? And our job is often in politics and how do you make a political argument as to why this needs to happen? But in businesses, it could be very different.

[James Reed]

I think the same principle applies. You know, if you're trying to. If you're pitching something, whether it's an idea or product or sale. I mean, politics. The decision makers have all just changed.

[Andy Cook]

Yes.

[James Reed]

Is that a challenge for you?

[Andy Cook]

Yeah, but I mean, they changed about 200 times under the last government.

[James Reed]

They did. They keep changing, in fact. Yeah, we've had a lot of employment ministers since I've been. You've got to get some movement, you've.

[Andy Cook]

Got to get some traction and you've got to get some heat. And often people don't. You know, you create a bit of heat to get the Light, you said.

[James Reed]

Something earlier about the sort of big charities and, and we hear this a lot on the news and the radio, that, you know, the problems are always huge and, you know, the solutions remote or far off or always needing more money. And what do you think about this? Because it sounds to me like you're someone who's addressing these big challenges with 50 ideas that won't cost any more. In a different spirit, it seems that there's a sort of bit of a cloud over the country. How can we help lift it? I suppose working together, business, philanthropy, if.

[Andy Cook]

There'S people in the toughest areas that are actually full of sunshine and hope and goodness, then actually that can be spread far wider and further. And I think this, this is the point. We've got to draw out the doers and the can dos. This is why I found the Prime Minister's speech, speech recently quite difficult in a way because it was 10 years to fix all these. Of course we know there's problems, but there's always bigger solutions. One of our things that we say at the CSJ is that someone's always solving these problems somewhere and that's in the business community, that's in the charity community, particularly the small ones, which we manage. How do we bring those good stories out, the problem solving stories and not just the issues? You know, to answer your question, Hadri, I think you know, your, your fellow business leaders are actually driving the change here. You're employing people, you're investing, you're doing good. Let's have them out more on the front lines saying how kind of how actually there's some real strength happening here in the regions. Let's have them taking a pedestal and going and absolutely. I know there's always a fear that you can get shot down and someone has a pop, but there's such good news stories out there and that's what we try and do with our small charities. It's not trying to say that everything's hunky dory, nothing to see here. And I think that's sometimes the juxtaposition between the small guys who are overcomers and the big guys who need to almost show how bad everything is in order to keep their businesses going.

[James Reed]

And the first question I'm going to ask you is, when I ask everyone and the question is, what gets you up on a Monday morning?

[Andy Cook]

I would say my daughters who are kind of rolling around or whatever, what gets me up on a Monday morning, it's actually, it starts to happen on a Sunday morning night where you just kind of kids to bed and you starting to feel excited about the week to come. And for me it can be anything that we're doing that week. But, but it's what are we pushing on with rather than what are we just keeping afloat. I think there's always two stages in any business or organization you're running order and advance. You're always either getting something ordered or you're advancing something. If you, if neither of those things are happening, you're flat. And I think it's one of those two things. Am I organizing something in order to advance or are we bloody advancing somewhere and so come get on board type thing. So for me it's the order or the advance.

[James Reed]

The second question is from my interview book and it's a common question so you've probably been asked it before. But where do you see yourself in five years time?

[Andy Cook]

I have absolutely no idea. I've never had a business plan for my life. Maybe I should have never had a career plan. I've only ever done the things that have brought me alive. There's an old phrase, isn't there, that the kind of don't ask yourself what the world needs, ask yourself what brings you alive because what the world needs, the people that are alive. And I've just gone after I did the charity, I did the csj and it's where we drive change and that brings me alive. So I don't know where I'll be in five years, but I know I'll be doing something that's bringing me alive.

[James Reed]

I'll bring you back and we'll talk about it. Thank you very much.

[Andy Cook]

Thank you.

[James Reed]

Thank you to Andy for joining me on All About Business. If you'd like to find out more about the center for Social justice and Andy, visit thecenterforsocialjustice.org I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to support a cause that's close to your heart while also doubling the difference, check out our charity Partners Big give. All links are in the show notes. See you next time.