← James Reed: all about business
James Reed: all about business
70. The 7 Second CV: What recruiters wish everyone knew | Libby White
00:27:35
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. Welcome to All About Business shorts, where we share practical advice you will actually use. In this episode, we're doing things a little differently. Instead of a career journey, we're focusing on one thing that still trips up even very experienced professionals. That's your CV. I'm joined by Libby White, one of our top re consultants who reviews CVs every single day. For mid level and senior roles, we'll unpack what hiring managers really look for, how to distill years of experience without underselling yourself, and the small strategic changes that can make a very big difference. If you've ever wondered why your CV isn't getting the response you expect, this one's for you. So today in our spring short series, I'm really pleased to welcome Libby White. We're going to be talking about a subject close to my heart, the cv. The CV is a document that is just so important in recruitment and in career progression and it's something that people have sort of said for years, you know, the CV's over, it's had it, but it seems to persist. And, Libby, I'm so pleased you can join me. You've got three years experience as a specialist senior consultant in Reid, you're based in southwest London. You look particularly at marketing, communications, PR and design type roles. So the CV is a, is in a sense a marketing document?
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Yes, absolutely.
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A
I mean, that's the function I think it serves. But what does an employer look for in, as my title of the book suggests, the seven seconds they take to evaluate a cv, what is it they're looking for?
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B
Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, firstly, thank you for having me today. It's a pleasure to be here and obviously to be talking all things cvs. In terms of what I would say clients are looking for is somebody that's grown within a company I would say is super important. We like to call it sort of bunny hopping. If somebody has, you know, been there for six months, been there for nine months, compared to somebody that's grown through a company and maybe gone through promotions in different levels, it really does stand out to the client because it shows their dedication to work and achieve whatever it is that they might be doing.
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A
So when you say bunny hopping, they're looking to exclude people who bunny hop?
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B
Not necessarily, but I think the market has changed so much since the book came out in, in 2019. I think there's always a lot of questions around why people have bunny hopped and people have been in situations where they've been made redundant or they've had to do interim positions. So there has been a lot more of that over the last couple of years.
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A
So if you're in that situation, you need to make clear why.
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B
Yeah, absolutely. Make clear why. But obviously that's why we're here as an agenc. There's perfect reasons behind it, but it's just about them being aware of that will potentially come up as a question from a client.
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A
Right. So if you're not in that situation and you've been at the same place for five or ten years, you want your CV to show your progression in that.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Employer.
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B
Yeah, absolutely. Really important.
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A
So what sort of things do they need to illustrate?
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B
Absolutely. So obviously you can show the different sort of titles that you've had within the company. So an example that I can give you is senior marketing executive. You know, if somebody's had quite an execution based role and then in the next sort of six months to a year they've been promoted to assistant marketing manager and then on from that. So I think a lot of people, if they've worked for the same company, they'll just keep their relevant information at the top. But it's really good to show that progression throughout, you know, what, what it was that you were doing at that level as a senior marketing exec, what it was that changed when you were promoted to marketing manager. Just showing the difference in terms of responsibilities is really important and key.
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A
So if you've been promoted, then it needs to be clear.
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B
Yeah.
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In, in terms of the job titles that you've got. So you wouldn't just put five years at one place.
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B
Yeah, absolutely.
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A
And, and how you've progressed. Why is this that, you know, a lot of people have a, what's called a professional summary at the top of their cv. Why is that considered so important these days? And, and what buttons do you need to press to make that work for you?
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B
We say it sets the tone for the cv. I think the first three sentences of the professional summary is, you know, incredibly important. It's so industry led the market at the moment. You know, if you come from a luxury background, you come from a financials background. That's the key point that people will be looking for. So yeah, it sets the tone. It shows exactly what it is that you're looking for and your niche within that particular market.
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A
And it's three sentences, I would say.
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B
Three sentences, yeah. And within those three sentences you should probably say how many years of experience you've got. Because when I'm first opening a cv, my first question to myself is, okay, how is this going to help my client with the role that I'm recruiting for at the moment? Have they got three years experience? Have they got over a decade of years experience? So it's really sets that tone in terms of seniority in the industry that they fall within.
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A
Right, so make sure your experience is, is highlighted in that opening statement. So what turns, what turns a recruiter off when they're reading a CV or question?
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B
Yeah, AI is probably going to be the first. On the top of my head, AI is great. You know, everybody uses it day to day. But as a recruiter who looks at CVs day in and day out, I can spot straight away when a CV has been built by AI. So I probably would say use it to help you with certain, you know, letterings and new words. But don't build your CV just solely off, you know, copilot or AI because we can spot it from a mile off.
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A
I got a request for a reference the other day from someone I a while back and it didn't sound like him at all and it was clearly,
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B
yeah, you know straight away.
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A
So you do know straight away and that's not good. So how do you know straight away, what is it?
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B
It's just that the tone, the format is another thing. I don't think AI is established enough yet to be able to generate a CV that looks like it's been made by a human being. It's very much the format is exactly the same, the wording, even the grammar. They love a long hyphen on AI. So yeah, if you are using it to build your cv, great. But just make sure that you're going through and you know, taking those hyphens off.
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A
And the important point is it's your CV, not ChatGPT, it's your CV.
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B
Yeah, absolutely. I'd say another thing that turns a recruiter off is your generic, hard working, collaborative using those types of word. I think we've moved away from that within this industry. You know, you're going to work for a business to show them what you can add, whether it's saving money or making money. So using words like commercial is going to benefit you in the long run rather than hard working and collaborative.
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A
But don't you have to evidence that you're commercial?
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B
Exactly. That will come with statistics. Key achievements is incredibly important.
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Business one.
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B
Yeah.
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Sales made or profits achieved? Growth. Growth.
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B
Growth is such a good thing. People like growth, people love growth.
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A
So ChatGPT CVs is a turn off, but growth is a positive. Growth is a positive if you can demonstrate it. And how do you decide what to leave out? How long should a CV be?
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B
Good question. I mean, again, depends on the level that you are. If somebody's got 10 to 20 years experience, it's going to be quite difficult to get that all onto a cv. We normally say two pages, but two pages of relevant information and you know, I appreciate people want to add everything into it and make it feel really, you know, respected within the market, but sometimes it does the opposite and I think that's why it's important to have multiple copies of CVs, just so you can apply that to the specific role that you are.
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A
Yeah, I've often said it should be one page, but I suppose if it's one, I mean in old language, one piece of paper.
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B
Yeah.
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Could be on either side, but yeah, but it's got to be edited and concise.
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B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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Because our research does show that people will look at it for seven seconds in the first instance.
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B
Yeah, absolutely. If it's anything longer than two pages, it is. It's too much. It's. I'm not taking in the information and neither is the hiring manager. So normally two pages of relevant information, you know, normally the first sort of five to six years is what's really important. That's going to be on the front page, but anything after that, still include it, but don't highlight it as much in terms of responsibilities.
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A
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B
It's so much more tangible. Anybody could say on their CV that, you know, they, they grow a campaign by 47% or you know, they worked really hard on a particular project but Having that tangible information makes it really, really relevant. Again, going back to my point of why people are being hired, it's either to save money or to make money. So if you're that individual that's been able to, you know, decrease a certain marketing budget or, you know, within the sales team, you've managed to boost revenue. They're the sort of commercial aspects that clients will be looking for on profiles.
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A
Yeah, I've always thought that a job is a problem to be solved. So you want to position yourself as the solution. With your cv, how far back do you think you should go in your sort of history? I mean, I mean CV means curriculum vita, the course of my life sort of thing. I mean, how far back is appropriate?
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B
Probably 10 years, 10 to 12 years again, depending on experience. I, I represent the sort of mid level to senior market, so I have quite a few people that really want to include everything. But I always say just focus on your 5 to 10 years and how that's going to be relevant to the role.
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A
Yeah, things are the most important, but I suppose you don't want to leave a big gap. So you might just put in very brief summary of what you were doing or where you worked.
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B
You could just have say, for example, if it was 20 years ago, you could have marketing manager the dates and the times that you did it. But you don't have to elaborate as much on what you would probably need to on the first five years.
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A
Well, marketing has changed a lot in 20 years, hasn't it?
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B
Yeah, absolutely.
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A
So what about, what about people who've got sort of vague experience but they want to turn it into something more impactful or describe how, how do you advise them, you know, just to almost mine more interesting information from their career history than might be immediately obvious when you first see their cv.
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B
Anybody's role can be so broad. Like my, my job, for example, is so broad, I'm doing something different every single day. But I think it's about really honing in on that information and, you know, having those three copies of your CV, if you know, if you're a 360 marketing manager, have one CV that's relevant to that. If you're applying for a brand position, make it look like you're really specialist in the brand industry. So I would say it's really looking at your experience and really honing in on the important factors, growth, commercial aspect.
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A
And so Libby, this is called tailoring your CV depending on who you're applying and it's important to stress it. It's not Saying, you know, make things up. It's, it's about presenting the most relevant to that particular hirer.
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B
And the one thing that I can't stand is when people put their CV and then mirror the job spec onto that. That is one thing that you should not be doing. You know, nobody's CV is going to be perfect, but it's just about adding and tailoring. As you said to.
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People use AI to do that.
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B
Yeah, absolutely.
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Sounds like that's a new thing.
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B
Yeah.
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Because it's easy to do now. You see that, do you?
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B
A lot.
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A
I know, don't take shortcuts with your cv. I mean it's a, it's a life changing document. I say to people, I mean, and how many life changing documents do you actually create? You know, because this could. Not many, I can't, I can't think of many either. So if you're going to be creating a life changing document, it should be yours and it should be really good.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So when, when you come to this sort of tailoring, I mean, if you're applying for jobs, I suppose you, you're going to be applying within a category. There might be slightly, I mean, how many different versions should you have and what. There should be some version control.
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B
Yeah, absolutely. Where, where the market is so industry led and I suppose that touches on my point from earlier. It's. I normally say two to three, two to three copies is average. I wouldn't want anybody to have six, seven different versions of their cv. It takes too much time. You're probably repeating yourself quite a lot. But it's just about for you to understand as a candidate what it is the market that you want to go in, the type of role that you want and just about putting that in evidence in that onto the cv. So you could have a Marketing manager cv, you could have a brand marketing Manager cv, you could have a Senior Marketing Manager cv. So if you're looking for that next step up, obviously put the senior one forward. If you're looking for a more creative and brand focused role, it'd be the brand CV. So a lot of people think that their CVs are never going to be right, but having those three different tailored ones is going to be really beneficial.
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A
So you're drawing on your experience but you're just, you're pushing some parts of it forward first in those different documents. I mean, the CV I've always thought has one purpose and that's to get you an interview. Do you agree with that?
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B
Absolutely. I represented a young lady recently, she's really struggled to get interviews. Her CV was all over the place. It wasn't formatted correctly, it had information on it that just didn't need to be on there. For example, her full home address, you know, references upon request. That's just a waste of, you know, valuable time and, you know, areas of the CV that you could be adding to more beneficial. So she came to me and she said, look, what can I do with my cv? I supported her. We focused on the industries that she wanted to go out to in the market and it took some time, you know, it took about a week to get it to where we wanted it it to be. I obviously did my job in terms of taking it out to market and we got two interviews with two different businesses. So with a cv, it's about being relevant and not, you know, this broad person that's just applying for any position. It's just about being market relevant.
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A
So you're, you're presenting yourself to that prospective employer as a. As the solution to their business.
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B
You're the product. Yeah, absolutely.
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You can, you can solve their problems. Yeah. So did you get the job she's interviewing this week? Well, fingers crossed.
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B
Fingers crossed. She's interviewing today actually at 12, so
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fingers crossed as well. It just shows the difference, though. I mean, it's worth mentioning that we have templates on read.co.uk CV templates that people can use to complete. And there's also CV templates in the book and advice on how to sort of activate your CV in the 7 second CV, which is as relevant now as it was when it was written. And people use a lot. I know. So there is help out there.
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B
Yeah, absolutely.
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And don't just go on AI is your message. It seems to be.
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B
To sum it up. That would be it.
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A
What about this question? When does adding a photo help and when does it hurt? Because some people.
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B
Controversial.
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A
Very controversial.
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B
Very controversial. I like this question a lot. I mean, again, not to be so industry focused, but the lady that's interviewing for me today, she really wants to get into the luxury field and a lot of my clients in that sort of Chelsea, Fulham area, their offices are above their showroom. So the way that you present yourself on your CV is going to be really key. So sometimes it works in your favour and sometimes it doesn't. If I was representing someone from the financial sector or public sector, I probably wouldn't say so, but if it's that more sort of B2C, that stakeholder environment, face to face client contact, I would definitely say have an appropriate picture on there, for sure.
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A
Right. So sometimes it's a good idea and sometimes it is.
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B
Depending.
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A
Again, the other thing, I mean, a lot. Pretty much everyone, it seems, is on LinkedIn and they have their picture there.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So it's not. It's not as sort of unusual as it used to be. What about. Is thinking of LinkedIn? What about if your CV doesn't match your LinkedIn profile? Is that a problem?
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B
Get that quite a lot.
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A
You get that quite a lot. I get now what's going on here, Lizzy. Yeah. Because I. I noticed this too.
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B
Yeah. It's a funny one, I think. Worry about what they're going to put on their LinkedIn, but sometimes they change their titles, sometimes they change their responsibilities. But I understand why people do it.
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A
But I think that's inflate on LinkedIn.
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B
Yeah. They inflate on LinkedIn. Or they could make themselves be more senior than actually what they are. And across the different industries, titles will vary in terms of seniority.
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A
This is affected, you know, the most highest echelons of public life. I've. I've sort of noticed or. Yeah. That people have inflated.
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B
Yeah. And just made themselves maybe something that they're maybe not in. In terms of.
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A
You don't want to be doing that on a cv. Huh.
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B
But I suppose that's my job, to really hone in on actually what it is they do day to day. And to be able to present that in a profile to a client.
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A
I mean, because people will take up references.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And you don't want to be misleading. And I mean, it's like saying you've got qualifications you haven't got, isn't it?
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B
Yeah.
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A
Yeah. If I put, you know, I was a TV producer when I was an assistant producer. It's pushing it.
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B
Or if I was an ice skater when I was 15.
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A
Were you?
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B
No. So I would have loved to have been, but no.
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A
That's an interesting. That takes us into an interesting sort of final section. The sort of hobbies and interests. This was something that people used to advise putting on cvs. What's your view on that?
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B
No.
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A
Why not?
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B
It's not relevant to the job in hand. I mean, if you're in an interview and I have an example of this, actually, I was working with a travel company that do ski solutions and the girl that went in and interviewed me is an avid skier. Goes every year of her dad and her brother. Just absolutely loves it. Wasn't on her cv, but went into the interview and obviously it's a travel company, they were talking about what it is that you do out of work time and that topic came up and she got the job. So if it's relevant in the interview, you know, mention it, what it is that you do outside of work, if that question comes up. But I think it's a waste of space on your cv. I think there's a lot of other relevant information that you could put on there instead.
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A
What would you suggest putting there?
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B
Probably systems use is a real one. I've seen within the last two years, you know, the likes of Salesforce as a CRM has been so popular within the market, but there's so other many different platforms that people are using, for example, HubSpot and Mailchimp. So if you have that on your CV, that's going to come up in our key search words when we're looking, you know, to sort of head hunt candidates. So I probably would say systems use is. Is really important as well.
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A
Okay. If someone had to fix something on their CV or just one thing this week, what would you suggest they fix?
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B
Key achievements.
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A
Key achievements?
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B
Yeah, it's incredibly important. There's two ways that you can do key achievements. You can have them at the top of your profile. Great. You know, as soon as we open that cv, we can see what you've done. But another thing that I really like is when somebody has their role, their key responsibilities and any key achievements that they've done within that specific role, it really just shows your point of being there as that product and what it is that you've done for that particular company in that position. And it just goes to show what you've done and had any excess within the role.
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A
So you're saying, if I understand you right, Libby, that each role you should have a key achievements bit at the end of it.
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B
Yeah, absolutely.
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A
How many achievements?
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B
Probably two to three. Depends how long you've been there. If you've been there for a year and there was a big, you know, project or activation across that year, have that on there. Having anything is going to be better than nothing. But key achievements is something that really stands out within this market.
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A
What about. I mean, I find this sometimes people say, oh, I did all this, but you know damn well that they're part of a team. I mean, and sort of saying, sort of aggrandizing themselves. They, I did it all, to me, seems immodest and dishonest.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So you want to be careful of that.
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B
Yeah, yeah, definitely come across that. Yeah, I do a lot, actually. I mean, if you're a sole marketing person within a function, then you are probably doing everything. But if we're looking at teams of 10 to 30, everybody's got their own hats. Right. So it's about that key achievement and what you did for that role rather than the team.
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A
It might be our team achieved this and my role was xyz.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I led X. Yeah.
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B
Or supported the team in achieving whatever it might be.
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A
I think that's important. I mean, because for me it's so obvious that business is about teamwork. We work together, we don't achieve anything on our own ultimately. So I think that's important that comes across. So what about these sort of dynamic verbs? You know, delivered, built, initiated. What place do they have in the cv?
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B
They're good words to build the foundations of a cv, but within this market, it's extremely competitive. After Covid, you know, it's about having that profile and that CV that stands out between five or six other people. So everybody's going to have those words in their cv. It's the foundations of making it, but it's just about using other words. You know, if you're going into a sales team, use commercial. You know, if you're a commercially minded individual, like I have to be day to day, that's going to really put your profile against all of the others. The same way within marketing, you know, if you're a growth individual or you did a particular marketing campaign that increased growth by 47%, it's all those types of words that are going to really make your profile stand out better to the other.
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A
So that you're. You're showing the facts based.
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B
Yeah, it needs to be tangible. Definitely.
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A
And what about the sort of person who's just starting out in their working life? You know, they just left school or college or university or you haven't had experience. How do they frame a CV to get themselves an interview when you. They can't necessarily do that.
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B
Yeah, absolutely. I would say format is a big thing for the junior candidates. You know, I think a lot of the time people really overthink their cv. If you're at that junior level or, you know, I must have a certain graphic or I must have a certain font. But what stands out to the junior market is that real professionalism across the cv. You know, how much information you have on it is really important. Important whether or not it's relevant. You're not necessarily going to have key achievements on there because you haven't probably been in a role where you've achieved that. But format is a massive thing for the junior market. And I think as a takeaway, a lot of people should be re looking over their profiles and thinking, maybe I should make it more formal, maybe I should take that graphic out. Because they're the things that really stand out to us when we're screening people at that junior level.
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A
So keep it professional, keep it professional. It doesn't find people that go off and decorate it.
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B
Yeah, I had a lovely candidate and she really wanted to get into the financial sector, but she had an orange cv, so that's not gonna. As a brand and in the marketing team, that's not going to coincide with
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A
what behind me it's called Karma Campus.
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B
As long as you haven't got an orange cv, that's all that matters.
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A
I don't have an orange cv. There's nothing wrong with the color orange, I want to say. Okay, well, yeah, that might be helpful advice. So. But I, I think part of what I'm interested in when I look at the cvs, I want to try and find out something about the person. So, you know, if they're a junior candidate, what. What else have they done? You know, did they do sort of holiday jobs, did they do sort of paper rounds when they were, you know, in the old days or jobs when they were younger? I think because in our business that's a real indication of potential, you know, contributors.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And do they do things as volunteers or have they run a student group or, you know, have they shown some leadership? They could put all that in, surely.
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B
Yeah, absolutely. If. If I could go back in time, I wish that I got involved with more stuff, curriculum stuff at school. So ball girl link, which looks great on a cv, you know, Duke of Edinburgh, that looks fantastic. So my advice to the junior market would be throw yourself in, in anything that you can, because I know in the moment you probably don't want to do it, but long term it looks fantastic on your cv, but.
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A
Yeah, you might not want to do it, but once you start doing it, probably enjoy it anyway.
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B
Exactly.
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A
I mean, that's the other. It's not just about whether it's good on your cv. It's like getting engaged with life.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Saying yes, as we, you know, as we go along to more opportunities is enriching. And then your CV will be a sort of document that comes out the end.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Looking better for it.
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B
Yeah, absolutely.
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A
So throw yourself into things.
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B
Throw yourself into it and do it whilst you're young and keep doing it. Yeah.
- [25:27]
A
Age should be. No barriers it. Thank you very much. For coming, talk to me about cvs. I'm going to ask you two questions I ask everyone at the end of my podcast. The first one, Libby, because we at Read Love Mondays is what gets you up on a Monday morning.
- [25:44]
B
I have two answers for this.
- [25:46]
A
Two.
- [25:47]
B
One is probably my Monday morning gym class. If I don't go to the gym on a Monday, it sets the tone for the week. Secondly is the variety in the position that I have today. And you know, I could be waking up on a Monday, it's cold and rainy outside, but I'm going to potentially be offering someone a position that they really want. So the variety in the role is what keeps me going throughout the week. Definitely.
- [26:07]
A
Good. What time does that gym class start?
- [26:09]
B
6:30.
- [26:10]
A
Excellent.
- [26:12]
B
Nice and early. Difficult in the winter months.
- [26:13]
A
Energizing starts.
- [26:14]
B
Yeah, that's good.
- [26:15]
A
And my last question from the interview book, why you is where do you see yourself in 5 years time?
- [26:23]
B
Knowing my market more, becoming more established with my knowledge, you know, working with new clients. But one thing that I've always wanted to be is a leader. I'd love to lead from the front. I've been in a position when I started here three and a half years ago where I needed to lean on a lot of people. So I would like to be that person for, you know, people getting into recruitment or understanding the marketing world. I really want to lead from the front. So hopefully within five years I'll have marketing consultants working underneath me.
- [26:51]
A
I think there should be plenty of opportunities for that. Let's make that happen. Thanks very much for coming to talk.
- [26:55]
B
You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me.
- [26:57]
A
My real pleasure. Thank you Libby, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to go deeper on this topic, please take a look at my book, the 7 seconds CV. You'll find links to read and further resources in the show Notes. Thank you for listening and see you next time.