72. How to build a successful brand in a competitive market | Steve Perez

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: James Reed: All About Business
Host: James Reed CBE
Guest: Steve Perez, Founder and Chairman of Global Brands Limited
Episode: 72 – How to Build a Successful Brand in a Competitive Market
Date: March 30, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and candid episode, James Reed sits down with Steve Perez, the force behind Global Brands Limited—the company famed for VK and several other drinks brands. Together, they unpack Perez's entrepreneurial journey, the highs and lows of building and losing a business, rebounding from failure, launching iconic brands, and the unique challenges and value of family businesses in today's UK economy. Perez also shares deep insight on brand-building, innovative product development, navigating rapid growth, and current threats to family enterprises, particularly the government changes to inheritance tax.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Life, Inspiration & Starting Out (00:00–06:18)

• Family Influence:
  Steve’s entrepreneurial spirit comes from his father, a successful pub and restaurant owner.
  • “My father was in business. He was an entrepreneur.” (01:57)
• From Corporate to Entrepreneur:
  After his father's untimely passing and a family fallout, Perez worked for Tetley’s, managing “fun pubs”—venues with music and premium beers.
  • “You’re doing a fantastic job... but you don’t have a degree, do you?” (03:33)
  • Perez realized corporate life wasn’t for him, due to lack of a degree and lifestyle clash.
• First Venture:
  Spotting a gap in premium bottled beers, Perez began importing and distributing brands like Budweiser from the back of a van, focusing on image and the evolving pub scene.

2. First Success, Catastrophic Failure & Resilience (06:18–13:22)

• Growth and Bust:
  Built a distribution business with £10M turnover but lost it all in 1995–96 due to brewers importing directly, economic recession, and bad debts.
  • “I remember coming on the train from London... saying, ‘failed businessman.’” (08:36)
• Bouncing Back:
  After a tough period working odd jobs (“I got myself a part-time job as a waiter...”), Perez leveraged contacts to start trading again—this time buying and selling surplus ‘Alco Pops.’

3. The Birth of VK & Brand Building (13:22–19:50)

• Spotting Trends & Market Entry:
  Noticing the rise of vodka/energy drink mixes, the team brainstormed an appealing, snappy name and settled on 'VK'—Vodka Kick.
  • “We literally went through V and the following letters... and got to VK.” (14:31)
  • Early marketing focused on appearance and lifestyle appeal.
  • “We don’t sell beer, we sell sex.” (05:36)
• Rapid Product Expansion:
  Launched with VK Blue (initially VK Energy), then soon added watermelon, orange, and an “Iron Brew” flavor.
• Meteoric Growth:
  Leveraged relationships and a quality product to scale:
  • £200k turnover pre-VK → £2M with VK → £16M next year → £30M, then £65M.
  • “The year we started with VK, we turned over 2 million. The following year, 16 million.” (18:52)

4. Funding, Relationships, and Surviving Cashflow Crunches (19:50–24:32)

• Challenges With Banks:
  Following his earlier business failure, Perez was considered by banks as “incompetent or a crook.” (20:40)
  • Could not get loans; survived by selling his car to inject cash, being honest with suppliers, and showing them full transparency:
  • “If you want to see my bank statements, my cashbook, anything you want to do, you can see.” (23:23)
• Equity vs Ownership:
  Strongly advises against giving away equity as a first option for financing:
  • “Equity is your last resort. Go to the banks... Find other ways of financing.” (24:28–24:32)

5. Brand Innovation & Expansion (27:10–36:50)

• Broadening the Portfolio:
  Created new brands like Corky's (flavored shots), Kick (ALCO pops/energy), and notably, acquired iconic Hooch.
• Ready-to-Drink (RTD) Philosophy:
  Shifts language from “Alcopops” to “ready to drink”—emphasizing social, moderate, and “cool” products.
• Product Development Approach:
  Invests in innovation, using chefs and a taster team to develop unique flavors and products—including All Shook Up (retail cocktails) and own-labels for major supermarkets.
• Franklin & Sons Story:
  Revived the heritage tonic and mixer brand, positioning it for the on-premise (hospitality) market, emphasizing narrative and exclusivity.
  • “I found there was a tonic... called Franklin and Sons, originally founded in 1886... the trademarks had lapsed.” (32:32)
  • Developed unique flavors for bars, keeping some exclusive to hospitality venues to protect brand prestige.

6. The Family Business Advantage & Synergies (36:50–42:26)

• Vertically Integrated Group:
  Now operates hotels (Casa Hotel, Peak Edge), and a farm, using produce from his land in his hotels—“farm to fork.”
  • “My idea has always been... to build this farm to fork. So I have the animals... [which] go to feed the hotels.” (41:09)
• Family Involvement:
  Son Seb is involved, handling international markets, and nephew works in the business as well.

7. The Threat: Inheritance Tax and Judicial Review (42:26–51:41)

• Government Policy Concerns:
  Perez deeply concerned about removal of business property relief on inheritance tax for family businesses (from April), requiring a 20% levy on value at death.
  • “The brake’s on. I’ve had to scrap investment plans…” (44:32)
  • “My worry is... family businesses [will be] sold, people made redundant… this is the opposite of growth.” (48:59)
• Legal Challenge:
  He is undertaking a judicial review, arguing government failed to consult as required by law.
  • “You can’t go to a judicial review because of change of law, but you can... if the process... hasn’t been followed.” (48:44–48:53)
• Impact on Investment & Employees:
  Perez has put investments (new hotel expansion, spa, manufacturing line) on hold amid uncertainty.
  • “The bigger my business is, the bigger problem I’m going to have.” (44:55)
  • “This will affect employees' job security. Millions of people’s job security...” (48:05)

8. Philosophy, Team, and Forward Vision (52:05–58:19)

• Entrepreneurial Team Building:
  Values surrounding yourself with people “better than yourself.”
  • “Build up a team who are better than you... I learn from them and they learn from me.” (52:23)
• Long-term, Generational Thinking:
  Perez emphasizes a multi-generational perspective—family businesses invest for the long term, not short-term shareholder profits.
  • “A lifetime isn’t enough to build a business.” (55:39)
  • “Your lifetime isn’t enough... The difficulty is, as an entrepreneur... you have to metamorphize; the second generation will hopefully build it.” (55:51)
• Private Ownership Over Exit:
  Refuses to “sell out,” keeps business independent, loves learning from failure—“failure is not a buffer, it’s a signpost.” (53:35)
• What Drives Him:
  Mondays are energizing; loves reading sales successes, speaking to his team, starting new initiatives (54:10).
• Ambitions:
  Hopes to see the business thrive internationally and remain a robust, privately-owned family enterprise, with his son eventually taking a leading role.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Steve Perez on learning from failure:
  “I remember coming on the train from London... and pointing at myself, saying: ‘failed businessman.’” (08:36)
• On launching VK:
  “We literally went through V and the following letters... and got to VK. That looks nice.” (14:31) “We don’t sell beer, we sell sex.” (05:36)
• On transparency with suppliers during cashflow crisis:
  “Please come to my office, see what we’re doing. If you want to see my bank statements, you can see.” (23:23)
• On equity and funding:
  “Find other ways [to finance]. Equity should be your last resort.” (24:28)
• On multi-generational business:
  “A lifetime isn’t enough to build a business... especially if you start from scratch.” (55:39, 55:53)
• On the family business under threat:
  “The brake’s on. The bigger my business is, the bigger the problem for my descendants.” (44:58)
• On team building:
  “Build up a team who are better than yourself... I learn from them, and they learn from me.” (52:23)
• On business as an ongoing journey:
  “You invest in the long term. You don’t just invest like a PLC, where you have to make more profits this year, otherwise you’ll get fired.” (56:27)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• VK: Brand Origins & Naming (13:22–15:35)
• Rapid Growth and Scaling Challenges (17:00–19:50)
• Surviving Financial Crunches & Supplier Relationships (20:32–24:05)
• Brand Expansion – Hooch/Franklin & Sons (27:10–36:50)
• Vertically Integrated Businesses (Hotels & Farming) (37:13–41:41)
• Inheritance Tax Legal Fight (42:26–49:48)
• Entrepreneurial Philosophy & Forward Vision (52:05–58:19)

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Tone & Language

This episode is dynamic, direct, and filled with humor, humility, and hands-on advice. Perez is candid about failure, resilient in the face of setbacks, and passionate about his people and products. Both James Reed and Steve Perez keep the conversation lively, rooted in real-world experience, and rich in practical wisdom.

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Useful For

Anyone interested in entrepreneurship, consumer branding in competitive markets, building a business from scratch, weathering economic storms, innovating within traditional industries, and the evolving importance and threats facing family-owned businesses in the modern UK.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. What does it take to build a successful consumer brand? And how do you become one of the fastest growing companies in the uk? Today on All About Business, I'm joined by Steve Perez, founder of Global Brands Limited, the company behind drinks brands such as vk. In this episode we discuss entrepreneurship, resilience after failure, how to build a successful consumer brand, and why Steve believes family businesses still have an important role to play in the future of the UK's economy. Well, today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to welcome Steve Perez to the studio. He's the founder and chairman of Global Brands, the independent drinks company he launched in 1997 after, I would say, identifying an opportunity in the market for a new kind of ready to drink beverage, leading to the creation of vk. What does VK stand for, Steve?

[B]

Well, it stands. Well, that kind of stands for Vodka Kick. We, we.

[A]

Vodka Kick.

[B]

Vodka Kick, yeah, it's vodka with a kick with a little bit of caffeine in it, a little bit of alcohol. All right. And it kind of gives, gives you a boost.

[A]

So, so for listeners, we've got a few examples on the, on the table here in the studio. Bright colored, quite enticing looking drinks that you first launched, I believe, in 1997. So Steve, just going back before that, you worked, I understand, in pubs and bars and restaurants. How did you come to start your own business and how did you end up in this space?

[B]

Well, my father was in business. He, he was an entrepreneur. He had a, he had a pub and a restaurant, a successful pub restaurant called A Red Line and Peak H Hotel, which actually I bought back about seven years ago.

[A]

So where were these places? Just so we could.

[B]

In Derbyshire, in Chesterfield.

[A]

And that's where you're from.

[B]

And that's where I'm from. That's why all my business is based. Right. And my father sadly died when he was just 48 and he was in a partnership and partnership all kind of went wrong with him. We ended up with a family dispute, so we basically ended up with very, very little money. So I ended up going to work for the corporate and I went for, to work for Tetley and son Joshua Tetley and Son up in Leeds.

[A]

Famous brewers.

[B]

Yeah, famous brewers. And I was running what they call then their football fun pubs, right. And one day my, my boss said to me, well, what was a.

[A]

How did you distinguish a fun pub from another pub?

[B]

Well, bear in mind in those days, you know, you go into a pub and you get, you get a pint of bitter or a pint of mild. But we sold, we sold. Interesting. Well, we sold lager for a start. We also sold premium bottle beers like Budweiser and Becks and stuff.

[A]

So fun pubs had a bit more of a range.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And loud music and that kind of stuff. Yeah, And a nightclub. And, and yeah, my boss told me, he said, you know Steve, you're doing a fantastic job. You're our top manager, you're hitting all the targets. How do you see your future? And I said, well Jeremy, one day I want to be like you, I want your job. Well, not your actual job, but I want to be an area manager. He said, well, I'm sorry Steve, you've got no chance. Well why is that? He said, well, you don't have a degree, do you? No. Do I need a degree? Oh absolutely. So you had a degree, so. Yes, I have a degree. What, what do you have a degree in? Greek mythology.

[A]

So, so this is somehow helpful.

[B]

That might be quite. That must be useful to run. But. So he says, I suggest you go and get yourself a degree and, and go to night.

[A]

You must have been a bit perplexed at this.

[B]

Yes. Gotta go to night school, get a degree. So. Yeah, and then we can get you on our graduate training course.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I thought I didn't really enjoy education that much anyway, so I thought, you know, I don't think this, I'm not going to go anywhere. And I started to think, well, what am I going to do? I had a few ideas. I noticed we were using a lot of veg for prepared veg. So one idea was, was pre preparing veg for hotels and restaurants. But. But then I'd noticed people were starting to drink a lot of premium bottle beers and you know what, I reckon I could make a living. And I got no grand desire. All I wanted to do was start working for the corporate. Used to give me a rollicking because I was 10 minutes late because I'd been working in a nightclub till 3 o' clock in the morning and I wasn't on time at 9:30 and that kind of thing I didn't enjoy working for. Yeah. And I then thought, yeah, these imported birds are Doing quite well. So. So I managed to borrow a bit of money off my mum and bought myself a little van, a little white van, and started to import small amounts of premium packaged beers. In those days, you know, I had Budweiser. So. So Budweiser, nobody had heard of Budweiser. And we're saying, oh, this is Budweiser, he's from America. Oh, that's cool and solid. You put a lot. You put a lime in a bottle and it's really cool.

[A]

Yeah, I remember this sort of emerging a long time ago. People started putting limes in bottles.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that was your sort of promotion.

[B]

Yeah, I used to say, actually, we don't sell beer, we sell sex. And. Right.

[A]

That'll get people's attention. So what happened?

[B]

Because you look a lot cooler, you know, to the, to the.

[A]

Oh, I see. So if you're drinking one of these,

[B]

an expensive bottle of premium beer, whether it be Grols or Beck or Budweiser, the. Then, then, then. Then you look like you. What, rather than stood there with a P of bitter in your hand. Right, yeah. So. So. So a lot of the guys started to drink premium bottle beers.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And you said, they always said, like, like the dad's drank bitter, the. The. Their dads drank lager. The sons drank premium bottle beers and their sons drink alcohol.

[A]

Vk.

[B]

Vk, hopefully.

[A]

So you got all generations catered for here.

[B]

Yeah, well, well, so, yeah. So that business I built up from out the back of a little van.

[A]

So this was going around Derbyshire, Yorkshire there?

[B]

Well, initially, yeah. Initially it was all around Derbyshire and Sheffield, which was the biggest city close to us. And one day I got this big account. In those days, of course, we didn't have mobile phones and you had to keep phoning. And one of the things was, I kept phoning this guy. I remember it was Peter Moy and the company was called Midsummer Leisure and he was the area manager and I'd presented my beers, my range of beers. I kept. I had to speak to him and he was never available, but I kept calling his office and one day I thought I called his office at 6 o' clock at night and I called the officer and he answered the phone, oh, Mr. Moore, I need to speak to you about my premium beers. He said, oh, yeah, I'll be meaning to speak to you. Yeah, let me give you my order. And he gave me this huge order which I could barely afford. And we started to supply this company, Midsummer Leisure, which became European Leisure, and we were supplying premium bottle beers and this was quite a Successful business, return of about 10 million for about 10 years. But then what happened? You know, it was change of government policy.

[A]

What are we talking about now?

[B]

This was so 95, 96. So the first business started in 1986. By 95, 96, a lot of brewers had cottoned on onto the importer beers and start to import the beers directly themselves.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Not only that was at that time there was a, if you remember the whole cross border shopping thing where guys were going over to the continent with white bands not paying duty. There was another recession and in 95, basically 96, my business went bust. Right. And I was like. Because we got some bad debts and yeah, I, I was fairly highly geared

[A]

and you know, so you obviously had to buy the beer and then sell it on. And you were the financing?

[B]

Yeah, I was financing. I was doing stuff like, you know, invoice factoring, invoice discounting, you know, to raise funds. And we took a few bad debts. We didn't have a lot of cash. And you know the bank that put you under. Yeah, put me under. And you know, and I thought, how

[A]

many people worked for the company then?

[B]

About 20 at that time. So.

[A]

So that must have been really tough.

[B]

You know, it was probably one of the worst days of my life. You know, I remember coming on the train from London looking at myself in the bathroom and pointed at myself and saying, failed businessman. Yeah, I just saw myself. I look pretty drawn. I just looked at myself and thought, you're a failure because I put my heart and soul into that business. And you could have said it was no fault of my own or you could have said it was my fault. I didn't really know. Maybe it was my fault. Yeah, maybe I was incompetent and that was a problem. Of course, when I tried to set up a new business because I recognized I'd still got good contacts and when I went to speak to the banks, at best they thought I was incompetent. At worst they thought I was a crook.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah, my next idea. Well, actually to start with, it started off, I started Trading because I recognized gray market stuff when you're buying like products from abroad, it's legal. Yeah. So despite the fact that we weren't the importer for Budweiser, could buy it in Holland at a cheap price and sell it.

[A]

Well, that was all when we were in the eu, I guess you could bring things in quite happily.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we started to sell. What happened at that time with Alca Pops? Alca Pops became very, very popular and

[A]

then we're talking mid-90s.

[B]

Mid-90s. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, 96, 97, 98 became very popular and then the government got involved and brought in quite a bit of legislation to stop them, the way they advertise these things. And a lot of the brewers and big companies got out of Alkapops, as they were called, and there was quite a lot of stock on the market. Cheap, cheap stock, which I bought the stock and I could sell it to a lot of my customers from the previous business because I'd built up, you know, it's very important, you know, you build up. Despite the fact my first business had gone bust, I built up some great customers who became good friends and they were happy to support me in my new venture. And they were buying these, these Alco Pops, sometimes short dated and, and the only rule I had then was please pay me really quickly because I.

[A]

So hang on, you've said a lot here that I just want to unpack a little bit. So how long after you were sort of having that moment on the train when you were being so tough on yourself, saying I'm a failed businessman to starting again? What was the sort of intervening gap? Are we talking weeks, days?

[B]

Yeah, probably a few. Probably. Well, to start with, I thought like I might, I, you know, I'm also a farmer, I got a small holding and just by the skin of my teeth managed to hang on to the farm, basically because I had so much money on it. The bank weren't interested and surviving a

[A]

financial crisis, I'm told.

[B]

Yeah, and, but, but I got my farm and I got some veg, I got some chickens. I thought, well, you know what, I can live on the farm, I can grow my own vegetables. And I got my. And actually, you know, I could live quite frugally and because, and I was sort of thinking about the business. Yeah. Building some sort of business. But then I thought, I'm never going to have a big business again. Little business would suit me. And I thought maybe I could do a little bit of trading or what have you. But I Had no money. So I got myself a part time job as a waiter in a restaurant. So weekends I was working as waiter because you know, I had, you know, still have bills to pay. So I grew my own food. Good things were being a waiter, you know, you got, you got staff dinner.

[A]

And tips sometimes.

[B]

Yeah, and tips. And my uncle had a market stall in Derby so I helped him sell leather goods on the market stall. So it was all ways of just trying to make some money and then, and then. But I built this business up sort of trading not on my own brands, but then it became more difficult to buy these short dated and you know, I mean by short dated.

[A]

Almost expired.

[B]

Almost expired. Sell by dates.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it got more difficult to buy stock. So. And then, you know where all these great ideas are born was in the pub, I was talking to one of my guys, they said what we should do. Why don't we make our own? Yeah, that's a good idea. And we noticed Red Bull was selling really well at that time and vodka was selling well. A lot of people were mixing Red Bull and vodka. Yeah, that was the drink to have.

[A]

Keep you going late at night.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you have that all night. So I said, why don't we do a Red Bull vodka? And I noticed from a previous business the brands that sell well got sort of one or two syllables like Beck's, Bud, Sol. And I thought, I know what, let's think, let's figure catchy names. So let's have two initials. So VB So I thought VB Vodka Bull. So that didn't work because it was already ready VB Bitter. So I went VB vc That's Victoria Kloss. VD Obviously couldn't call it that. We got ve that had connotations with, you know, drugs. And I got to V.K. i said, oh, V.K. that looks nice.

[A]

So literally he went through V. And the following lesson.

[B]

Yeah, K. Yeah, K looks nice. V and K. You know, it's all linear. And. And Mark James, who was my only employee at that time, said to me, why is it called vk? I said vodka with a kick. Vodka kick. So it became Vodka Kick. And ultimately we actually had to drop the name kick pick because it was decided by the, by the powers that be that, that it was sort of promoting irresponsible drinking. So now it's just called vk.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And everybody knows what it is.

[A]

Yes. And so what was your first VK flavor?

[B]

So it's V. It was VK Blue.

[A]

But actually which we have on the table VK Blue.

[B]

But at that time it wasn't actually blue.

[A]

I wasn't it.

[B]

It was in a blue. Well, it was in the blue bottle. It was called VK Energy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I said we weren't allowed to call it. We found a couple of years later they ruled the powers up. B rule. We couldn't call it VK Energy because that could promote irresponsible drinking. So. Right, but, but, but everybody used to call. Because it was wrapped in a, in a blue sleeve, everybody called it VK Blue.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So let's just call it VK Blue. So for, for many years it was, it was sleeved, but it was a sort of red bull flake colored liquid. And so, so it was, it was only some more recently for, for environmental reasons really. We took, we took the, the sleeving off, the plastic. Sleeving off and obviously we had to, we had to add some sort of colored.

[A]

Was the sleeving on so people could drink it in various locations. Was that why it was. It was sort of covered up.

[B]

It just looks cool.

[A]

Just looks cool.

[B]

Yeah, it looks really good.

[A]

So you really sort of did a lot of thought around the way it looked and sounded. Yeah, that was your sort of focus, I think.

[B]

I think the thing is with, you know, business, you, you might, you could say my. Well, 10 years and my probably 10 years prior to that in working in hospitality, I realized you got to give people what they want. And, and people, you know, people, people want to hold a bottle in their hand. That sexy. Yeah. And like the beers and Alco pops was with a new, with a new.

[A]

So you wanted a good looking bottle.

[B]

Yeah, I wanted something and it looked great. If that was the same color as my car. I had, I managed to afford a BMW at that time because the first bit the business had grew fairly quickly

[A]

really was that bright blue and that was bright brass.

[B]

I do it. Let's make it the same color as my BMW. Right?

[A]

Blue is the color.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it was like silver blue.

[A]

Right. Okay. So then, so then you obviously expanded the range.

[B]

Well, yeah, well, yeah, yeah. Well to start with, we just started with blue and then it was a watermelon. But. But what happened was because I got the contacts from my previous visit business, I got the. Yeah, we've got the blue got. We had an orange and a watermelon and an iron brew version. They were the first four flavors because actually you needed a range.

[A]

Iron brew is another brand.

[B]

No, well, that's, that spelled iron brew. That's irn. But iron Brew actually isn't. Isn't a brand not.

[A]

What is Iron Brew, then?

[B]

Iron Brew is a tutti fruity flavor, actually.

[A]

It's actually a flavor, yeah, it's a flavor, yeah.

[B]

I never knew that.

[A]

So you could use that phrase.

[B]

Yeah, we could use that phrase, yeah, yeah. And at that time that, that was quite, quite popular. And, and, and I went, I went to my, my customers, I had fun, important bits and I said, look, I've got this new brand. The biggest brand at that time was Bacardi Breeza. And I said, look, you could kick out Bacardi Breezer and put in vk. And the benefit of VK over Bacardi Breezer is, first of all, it's vodka, it's not rum. People prefer vodka to rum. Our bottle's a little bit smaller and Instead of being 5.4 ABV, the 4% be ABV. So less strong, people will drink more and actually people will be less ill. You get less problems in Uniteclubs and you save money. It's kind of a win, win. And as soon as we started to produce it and supply it, the business we were turning over about when I first started, we turned over about 200,000. The year we started with VK, we turned over 2 million. The following year we turned over 16 million. 1 6, 1 16. Yeah.

[A]

Grew Eightfold.

[B]

Yeah. The following year we turned over 30 million. The following year we turned over 65 million.

[A]

This is a huge growth.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sort of trajectory. That must have put quite a lot of pressure on the business, didn't it?

[B]

It was. But you know, what, how did you do that? It was the best fun I've had in my life. It was sounds it. Talk about you have having fun in business,

[A]

so you just had to grow a team pretty quickly.

[B]

Yeah, it was fun and fear, you know, it was, you know, and having for, you know, I'm a rally driver and people. Well, it's dangerous, isn't it? And I suppose it was dangerous. You know, my house, you like a bit of adrenaline. What was left? Yeah, yeah. Everything was on the line and, you know, people said, well, how do you defund it? And the difficulty with drinks, of course, you have to pay. Well, we had to pay the duty up front, so as soon as we produce, we have to pay the excise duty up front. And anyway, I have to pay for the product because it was very difficult Getting. Yeah, getting.

[A]

So you weren't making it, you were getting other people to make it, were you?

[B]

And that's what we still do today. Everything you know, we're a mill without looms. So everything is. Our skill set is in marketing, in producing amazing liquids. But the only thing we don't do is put the liquid in the bottle.

[A]

So you're coming up with the recipes.

[B]

The recipes. We supply the labels, we supply the crowns and everything. And we supply that to the. To the filler, and the filler fills it. You know, lots of the big brands do the same thing, including me. We. We'd go down the same line as Bacardi Breeza, for example, our arch rival. So you don't necessarily have to have

[A]

a factory, but you had to be able to finance that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so that was a challenge going that far. How did you do that?

[B]

And, yeah, and that was. That is the biggest.

[A]

Because you've also got these banks who think you're either.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Incompetent or a crook, as you put it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So how did you persuade them to finance.

[B]

I couldn't borrow any money from the banks. Not only you couldn't, they were awful. Cause in those days. Cause you wrote checks. And I remember one day the bank saying, oh, you're overdrawn. I said, well, I'm not overdrawn. I've got all these checks. He said, yeah, yeah, but you've got uncleared funds. That means you're overdrawn. So I'm gonna have to bounce over your checks. I said, please don't do that. If you bounce my checks, my suppliers will lose confidence in me and I'll be out of the business again. He says, no, look, I need five grand in your account by buy today. Meanwhile. Actually, I was. I was negotiating.

[A]

You had checks from other people?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They would take days to sort of administer or process.

[B]

Those people that don't know what checks are those a piece of paper we used to have.

[A]

Yeah, but they took like two or three days to take, which was while they were making money out of your money, I guess.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So they were going to put you out of business.

[B]

They're going to put me out of business. So.

[A]

Shocking.

[B]

So I managed to sell my. My only car. I got a Land Rover, you know, my farm Land Rover. I sold my. My Land Rover for cash. Got five grand cash, put it into the bank and. And I said that there's a cash. Chris Ricky. Was it down? Maybe. I can't say his name. Midland bank in. In Chesterfield.

[A]

Just so everyone knows, there's.

[B]

There's the cash and close the effing account. So. What do you mean, no? I've opened an account with Raw banger, Scotland. So, so close the account, clear the check.

[A]

They lost you as a customer.

[B]

Yeah, got the bus back to my warehouse and, and, but so literally you sold your car. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Stay in business.

[B]

Just, just, yeah, just to get those, those checks cleared. Right. And then, and then it was bought. Bought for cash. So, so, so, so then what I found. So, so his business was growing so quickly and, but I got some really, really good suppliers and many of which in fact, Thomas Hardy was our bottler and they were our biggest supplier and they still, 25 years still bottle for us today.

[A]

They're still a supplier.

[B]

Yeah, they're still suppliers, so that relationship's critical and they're probably our biggest supplier. And I went to Peter Ward who goes, it's another family business, Chris's father. I said, look, I haven't got the cash yet to pay you terms, but please, if you could, I know I've only got a five grand credit limit, but my business is going really well. Please come to my office, see, see what we're doing. If you want to see my bank statements, if you want to see my cash book, anything you want to do, you can see, I'll fax them down to you.

[A]

Because you knew the money was going to come in.

[B]

Yeah, we've got great customers, we're making fantastic margins, we're making huge amount of profit, but we weren't making any cash. Yeah. So, so, so I went to all my suppliers, my glass suppliers and stuff, just, and, and to my surprise, they all said, well, nobody's ever said this to us before. Right. And you know what? In 25 years in business since, nobody's ever come to me and said, you know, we, we certainly put people on stop and give them credit limits, but nobody's come and said, I'll show you my books, come and have a look, send your fd along them.

[A]

And so that's good advice to people who are in this situation of growing businesses. And yeah, the cash is tight. You know, if you've got a growth story to show.

[B]

Yeah. And you know what gets me these days? Maybe it wasn't around when I first started business. These days everybody talks about seed enterprise seis where you give a chunk of your business away to vcts. And, and I would say you've got to hang on to your business.

[A]

So find other ways of financing.

[B]

Find other ways. That should be the last resort.

[A]

Equity is your last resort.

[B]

Yeah, equity is your last resort. Go to the banks. At that time you had to go to the banks and eventually you Come up with business plan. And the banks lent us money. There's invoice factoring, invoice discount. There are other forms of finance, but I see lots of, lots of these businesses around. And some people send me business plans and they show me the business plan. First of all, the founder's on 150 grand a year, and he gives away a lot of his equity. He loses millions and millions and millions. I look at lots of our competitors I see lose millions a year. And then they shout out in the press how delighted they are that they've narrowed the losses from 3 million to 2 million. And they're always looking for an exit. And I never built a business to look for an exit. I built a business because I love what I do. Yeah. I love the people, I love my customers. And it's great fun enjoying your own business. And over the years, many times I've had businesses, VCT or venture capitalists come along and say, oh, would you like. Would you like to take 10 million out of your business? You like to take 20 million? Yeah, we'll take a minority stake. You'll still be running your business. And I've always resisted it. Yeah. I run my own show. I don't want somebody.

[A]

But why have you resisted it? Because you think they're going to take it over or because they want to, they'll make you sell it or what's the.

[B]

Because it means I can make mistakes.

[A]

You can make mistakes when you're your own.

[B]

Yeah, I make mistakes all the time. You know, we do think, you know, we do things, we try things, we try new brands, and sometimes they're successful and sometimes they fail. And I don't have to look over my shoulder or get permission. And we have to do things very, very quickly. You have drinks. Business is almost like the fashion business. Things change very, very quickly. Fashions change, flavors change. You know, for example, peaches are in flavor right now. So, you know, yuzu is a big flavor right now. So we've.

[A]

So you need to keep abreast of this. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And you need. Yeah. And. And you need. You need to move quick. And sometimes you get it wrong, you know, sometimes you're too early to market. You know, we've made that mistake a few times. We've brought brands to market and, you know, we think they're going to be really successful. And they failed.

[A]

Yes. So. So, so the having the sort of independence to be able to try things and to weather failure without a venture capitalist coming down on you like a ton of bricks. If you miss some plan. It's really important. I can see how have you developed your product range? Because I know you've gone beyond VK and you do other things now as global brands.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So our main market was to start with was mainly pubs, clubs and busy town center bars. So the first brand we came along was called Corky's, which is a flavored shot. And, and that, that was, that, that was, you know, very, very successful. And. And then we have another brand called Kick, which, which, which is a non alcoholic version of vodka Kick. And it's, it's, it's another, it's another energy drink. And about five years ago, I bought Hooch. Now Hooch at one time was our arch rival and it, it went up, it went off the market. It was, it was bought by, it was originally owned by Bass.

[A]

So Hooch was ala Pops.

[B]

It was another al. Yeah, that's what I recall. Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was, you know, many people say it was, it was a founding father of, of Alps.

[A]

The original.

[B]

Yeah, it was the original.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. And yeah, I remember it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause had it and I think Bass had it. And then Coors bought Bass Brewers, I don't think. I think the Americans just didn't like Alca. Pops thought they're probably too girly or something and eventually decided they were going to take it off the market. And it went off the market. Right. And I met up with Bass or with Kurz as it was. Then I said, look, you've got this brand ban Hooch and you're not doing anything with it. Would you let me license it? And so we came up with a very, very simple licensing agreement. And for about 10 years we were very successful with Hooch and Keith Lemon launched it for us. You have Keith Lemon, Lemon, Hooch and all that. And it was. And then to my surprise, three years ago Hooch, the owners of Hooch, which was Kerrs, offered, offered to sell it to me and I was absolutely delighted. It was the first acquisition I've made because they'd always said that they wouldn't, you know, they wouldn't sell it. It was too big a brand for them. And I bought it and we brought it into our, into our stable. So we've really sort of cornered the. Well, we don't like to call it alcohol. We call it RTD's Ready to Drink. And why don't you like to call it alcohol? Well, it has connotations with unsociable drinking, irresponsible drinking, but actually a lot of these products are actually not that strong.

[A]

So you call it Ready to Drink.

[B]

Ready to drink.

[A]

So they're like little cocktails.

[B]

Yeah, we supply a range of cocktails called All Shook Up. Now that's in all the major retailers, a lot of the major retailers.

[A]

All Shook Up.

[B]

All Shook Up.

[A]

If any example, shaken not stirred.

[B]

Yeah. You'll see it in Tesco's.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And also we supply a lot of own label products for some of the discounters, such as Aldi and Lidl, and also some of the other major supermarkets. Because what we have, what we're absolutely brilliant at, is coming up with a fantastic flavor. I really believe our guys back. Yeah.

[A]

So you have a sort of taster team laboratory where people are trying these things. Yeah, Nice job for people.

[B]

Yeah, we have our. We have our own chefs and who come up with flavors and they are absolutely brilliant at coming up with great flavors and also innovative flavors. We've just launched a Yuzu flavor of Franklin and Sons, which I can tell you about.

[A]

So tell me about Franklin and Sons. Yeah, that's another business line for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what's Franklin and Sons?

[B]

So I'd obviously seen the success of Fever Tree, the grog success of Fever Tree about, about, about 10 years ago.

[A]

So there was Schweppes.

[B]

Yeah. First of all with Schweppes.

[A]

And there's Fever Tree.

[B]

There's Fever Tree.

[A]

These are tonics. Yeah, typically. Yeah. And now you've got Franklin.

[B]

Yeah. And, and, and, and I thought I'd seen Fever Tree, but I just didn't want to invent yet another, you know, me too copycat of Fever Tree. But I wanted, I wanted. I saw there was a market for another premium tonic, and I looked around, I thought, what? A lot of these brands are lacking our heritage. Because the great thing about tonics, you know, tonics were invented in India. You know, it was a tonic, you

[A]

know, which Quinnied was meant to help you avoid malaria.

[B]

To avoid malaria. So there was a lot of history. And I looked around and I scoured the Internet and I found there was a tonic, a soft drinks company called Franklin and Sons, which. Which were originally founded in 1886.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And. And, and the brand had died, gone off the market and, and, and, and the trademarks had lapsed. And I contacted the original family. Well, not the original founder, but one of the. Yeah, but, yeah. And asked if they were interested in being involved. Unfortunately, they weren't interested in being involved in the business. I explained I wanted to bring the brand back to life, which they Were very happy. I did so. And we were true as possible to the brand. So we went back and we tried to find old recipes and where the bottle is very similar in terms of logo to. To how it was back in the day.

[A]

And so it's interesting. So you were very interested in recreating the narrative around an old brand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Made a premium product and recreating. Because obviously with vk, you did the opposite. You started afresh. Something new here. You're going, right. This is a different strategy, marketing wise.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so what. What made you change?

[B]

I'll tell you what, Gabe, why didn't

[A]

you just do a new tonic?

[B]

I'll tell you what gave me the idea. I was in the Brewers Hall, I think it is, you know, the Brewers Vinders, the brewers livery brewers was Vins or the Brewers Hall. And I was going down the stairs and I saw these wonderful names, I think, like Watneys or Edmond or Charringtons and all these. All. All these old brewers. All people.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I know a few. There's a few around still today.

[A]

People's names.

[B]

People. Yeah. Charringtons. They all were original founders. Isn't that wonderful? But there's very few brands like that, so I wanted somebody's name. Yeah. I don't think Tonic called Perez would have worked anyway, by the way.

[A]

Might have done. Sounds quite good to me.

[B]

Not very British.

[A]

But Tonic isn't, as you just said.

[B]

And so I wanted to found another. And there was actually another brand which I saw called Clayton, which was actually found, which actually soft drinks company in Chesterfield, but they'd already got trademarks in Australia and various other. But I found Franklin's and then we developed. And what I wanted to do, I wanted to develop something special. Something special really for the. On premise. Because the problem is what happens with brands is developed these very premium brands. And I don't necessarily want to decry my competitors, you know, such a fever tray, because I understand. I understand the commercial pressures that they're under. You create a really successful brand as. As. As they did with Fever Tree and, And once again. And they. And they went into all the premium venues and hotels, but gradually they went out into supermarkets. And I think once you start to get in the supermarket, become less special and also kind of devalued. You know, like, it's like, say, champagne. Yeah. Lots of, you know, sommeliers look rather sniffy if you order a bottle of Moishe Chandon because, you know, you could buy it in every supermarket and it's probably better There are better champagnes than Moishandon. And I also believe that if you're going out for dinner or cocktail, you want an experience and you want to experience something you, you can't experience at home.

[A]

I see. So this is for.

[B]

So, so. And, and one of the things we've done with, with Franklin's, we've, we've created a lot of really unusual and different flavors. Yeah. My favorite being a rosemary black olive flavor, which is rosemary black olive, a flavored tonic, which is absolutely amazing. And, and, and now you can only

[A]

get that when you go out. You can't get.

[B]

And you can only go. Yeah, you can't buy different supermarkets. You can buy online, but you can buy. You, you can buy. And it's something for the bartenders to talk about because it should be going out should be an experience. It's not like going. Anyone can sit at home and have a gin tonic or a meal. And also, as far as the outlets are concerned, if you can buy that tonic for 50p in a supermarket, it looks like you're being ripped off if you're charging. Yeah. Three pound fifty for it.

[A]

It does, yeah, it happens. Yeah, it does. Yeah, it does. So I can see the strategy and that, that makes sense. So, so let's, let's, let's fast forward a bit here, Steve. So you now have, I believe, a family business because I think you other family members are involved in global brands.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Tell me, tell me how it looks today.

[B]

Yeah, well, I've sort of. Can I just go back a little bit?

[A]

You can do what you like.

[B]

Right? Yeah, yeah. Because also I'm also a hotelier as well.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Yeah. So, so, so I needed to. Once my business was expanding, I needed to move offices. So, so I bought a piece of land. I was making a lot of money. That it was. Yeah.

[A]

How long ago we talk about now.

[B]

So, so, so this would have been in 2000, another recession, 2008, 2009. And I decided I was making so much money, I needed to buy some land and build something. So I decided to build some offices. So I bought a piece of land in Chesterfield, which was quite a big piece of land, but it was too big just for my offices. And again, where all the great ideas are born. In the pub, I was talking to my brother. He said, I don't know what else to do with this piece of land. It's a great site. And this. Well, why, why do you build a hotel? I thought, yeah, that's a great idea. Let's build A hotel. And I started off with a.

[A]

So you just had an idea in a pub to build a hotel?

[B]

Yeah. And you went and built one and A built.

[A]

This is good. How many bedrooms does this?

[B]

So it started off, it started off as a little three star hotel.

[A]

Just how many rooms?

[B]

With, with about 60 rooms. 60.

[A]

That's more.

[B]

Yeah. Well, no, no, what he, it, at one stage it ended up looking like something in Dubai right off budget. But it, but it, but it ended up being 100 bedrooms.

[A]

So what's it called?

[B]

It's called the Casa Hotel.

[A]

Casa Hotel, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Right. And, and it's a six story building. It's a beautiful, very modern building. Initially the planners didn't want it because he said it would look too modern. And, and I said, look, it's a 20 million pound development. If you don't, if you don't, if you don't want it, move somewhere else.

[A]

What's the rival town to Chesterfield? You could have threatened them with where?

[B]

Sheffield. Yeah, yeah. And, but, but it, but it's great because what it, what it means is, is, is our offices are down on the fifth floor. My, my. Yeah, my staff can stay there. You know, we have members of staff not only all over the country but all over the world and they can come, our customers can come, we can build the drinks and, and yeah, I can, you know, indulge in my other. Yeah. Passion, which is, which is food.

[A]

And, and so it's probably got quite a lively bar, has it?

[B]

Yeah, it's got a great, yeah, it's got great products.

[A]

Yeah. And a good restaurant. I, I'm looking forward to visiting one day.

[B]

So.

[A]

So is it busy, is it? Yeah, yeah, happy with it. But obviously this was a different business though.

[B]

Yeah. But as it was built, you know. Well, you know, because the bank said, are you crazy? What do you know about hotels? I know a lot about hotels. My father was in the restaurant business and I worked in hotels, but actually it's a lot more difficult than I imagined. And just while we were building the hotel we had another recession and it put a lot of pressure on the business. Kind of 2009, 2010 and many times I regretted building it, but actually subsequently it's been very, very popular. It's the only four star hotel in Chesterfield. Right. And but then I decided, you know, I kind of decided I liked hotels and I enjoyed the whole. And, and as I said, my father had the Red Line Pub and Restaurant which became the Peak H Hotel. And about seven years ago I heard on it was gone up just before COVID I heard it was on the market and was for sale so. So I bought it. This is also in Chesterfield, also just outside Chesterfield. Yeah, yeah. And it's about two miles from my house and, and, and I'm also a farmer. I've got a 500 acre farm. So. So you know my idea has always been a bit like Jeremy Clarkson was to build this farm to fork. So I've. So I have the animals.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And, and the, you know, the animals go to feed, you know, feed the hotels. The hotels, you know, serve my drinks.

[A]

Yeah. And so you're vertically integrated.

[B]

Exactly. Really old fashioned that.

[A]

Old fashioned. But you seem to think it works.

[B]

Yeah, yeah it does. And, and this. Yeah, there's so many synergies. You know, for example, one of you know, the cocktail barman ended up coming over and now works in the, in the drinks business and so there are lots of them. Yeah, lots of synergies there.

[A]

And you have your family involved, I understand.

[B]

So yeah, yeah. So. So my son's joined the business Seb. He's, he's a kind of, he's a part time professional racing driver as well.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So when he, when he's not racing all over the world, he races old cars. He's a very, very successful driver. He won the British Rally Championship and. Good.

[A]

Fair.

[B]

Yeah. And, and, and so, so, so, so, so what he's able to do is able to look after some of our, his help with looking after some of the international markets. We've got huge potential right now in the US with Franklin and Sons. I see that as being a great growth area and also my nephew's working in the business.

[A]

Fantastic. So Steve, I understand that when we finish talking here, we're in Chancery Lane in London. You're going to walk around the corner to the High Court where you have a case that's being heard over the next couple of days challenging our government about the introduction of. Well, or removal of inheritance tax business property relief.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So could you, could you explain what, what's going on? Why is this, why are you bringing this case? What's the issue here? And, and right. What do you hope to achieve?

[B]

Yeah. For 50, for 50 years brought in by Labour government businesses, family businesses have been allowed to pass on to the next generation and there's millions of family businesses in the UK with the biggest employer of people in this country. The government in the first two months brought it changed the business property whereby all businesses now will have to pay on the death of the founder of or owner is 20% on the value of their business. Now, people think, well, you've got a big business, you can afford 20%. But actually what it is, for example, if you valued any business. Let's think of a number. If you valued a business at 50 million, you would have to pay. Find 10 million to pay the government. Now, finding 10 million would mean you'd have to pay yourself approximately £20 million in dividends to pay the tax. Now, most businesses.

[A]

Because that's already taxed.

[B]

That's already taxed, yes.

[A]

They're basically taking tax twice if you do that.

[B]

And it's like the farms, most businesses like farms don't have that kind of money available. We don't have liquid cash. What it's meant for me, I mean, I'd got one of my hotels, I've got. I'd planned building another 27 bedrooms, I planned putting a spa in, I'd got a 10 million pound canning line going in. I've had to scrap all that for the time being.

[A]

Because you're concerned about this?

[B]

Yeah, because what it would do, it would create a huge, huge issue for my family going forward. The bigger my business is, the bigger problem I'm gonna have. And what it will mean is if.

[A]

So what you're saying, so I understand you, is you don't really want to grow your business much bigger because it becomes a bigger problem for your descendants.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Over. The brakes are on. The brake.

[A]

The brakes are on. So you're literally saying you've stopped making these investments.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So this is a pattern that's being recreated across the country, but that's going to undermine any growth plans for the economy, isn't it?

[B]

I mean, yeah, well, yeah, but it's not just my descendants. People say, well, I'm just looking after my family, my family and my business and my employees. And I'm really like, I'm really concerned about my employees futures going forward because should I die and my business gets sold, more than likely it will be sold to a much bigger business. They'll move out of Chesterfield, the employees would be made redundant and they'll be out of a job. And I've sat down with my two Labour politicians and told them, your constituencies on my death will probably be out of a job. And you're voting for this reason to your local MPs. My local MPs, Toby Perkins and Louise Sanderson Jones have sat down. And actually, to be honest, I think they agree with me, I think they understand the problem. But the chancellor, a naive chancellor, this was brought in two months after they were elected. And I spoke to Keir Starmer two days prior to the election and said, sir, I'm very concerned about two things. First of all, there's views in the press about changes to inheritance tax for businesses such as mine and also business rates. He said, steve, we've listened to business, we've engaged with business, and you have nothing to fear from labor. I thought, well, maybe he's right. We didn't do.

[A]

So he said that to your face.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely right. And I thought actually we didn't do too badly under Blair. My business was built under Blair. I wasn't too worried. And this came like a bombshell. There was. There's been no consultation, unlike say, even private schools. I mean, it's like, well, that was

[A]

in the manifesto, at least.

[B]

That was in the manifesto. This wasn't in the manifesto. There was no consultation. And by law and by convention, the government are obliged to consult with business for any major changes to tax regulation. And this will have a huge, huge impact on all businesses. This will have a huge impact on employees. And you know, you think that this government of spending a lot of time talking about employees and welfare changes, a lot of changes to employment rights acts. Well, this will affect employees, job security. Millions of people's job security are going to be affected by this. And they just haven't considered. The implications have not been fully considered. And I'm really hoping that the eminent judges, learned judges, will understand this is wrong and ask the government to go back and let industry consult and hopefully.

[A]

So you have undertaken what's called, you've requested a judicial review, which is, which is about to occur.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So the judge could say, hang on a minute to the government, you need to have another look at that. That's what you're hoping will happen.

[B]

Yeah, that, that's.

[A]

I mean, is that likely because, I mean, parliament decides the law rather. Is that ultimately.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

Something that's been voted for. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So this isn't about a change of the law. This is a, this is the fact that the government are obliged to consult. So we're not.

[A]

So it's a tax change that hasn't been consulted on.

[B]

It's not. You can't.

[A]

That's your case.

[B]

Yeah. You can't, you can't go to a judicial review because of change of law, but you can go to a judicial review that the process of a correct process has, hasn't been followed.

[A]

Right. Because this change will be effective from the beginning of April.

[B]

It will. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And it will affect all family businesses.

[B]

And, and my worry is that what's going to happen is going to. You're going to see family businesses being sold, people being made redundant, there's going to be lots of press and once again the government will go, oh, we've got it wrong. Let's have a U turn. And I really think that's what's going to happen because it's. Because in lots of ways the government talk about growth, growth, investment, and actually this is absolute opposite to growth.

[A]

Well, I'm very struck by you saying you've made specific decisions not to make investments. There were two or three things there that you said would have delivered growth and more jobs that you decided not to do because you had this sword of Damocles potentially hanging over your business where you'd have to find a huge sum or your son or your children or wife or whatever would have to find huge amounts of money.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Your inheritance.

[B]

Yeah. I'm hanging on. I'm, you know, I'm hanging on with the hope that that will have a change of government or change of policy and then, and then at least we're going to be in a position whereby again. Right, great.

[A]

It's interesting to me that this, that this was originally introduced, as you said, 50 years ago by labor government, by Dennis Eagle.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

So he could see this problem.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And it obviously wasn't changed by the Blair government. Gordon Brown and Tony Blair left it in place. They could probably see this problem.

[B]

Yeah. Successive governments have. Have not changed it. When I've spoken to, to former Conservative ministers, they've said, yeah, the civil servants have often brought this up and said, oh, there's these billions and billions of pounds worth of money, billions of pounds tied up in these family businesses that get passed from year a year and it's just passed on from generation to generation and we could be having part of that and it's not fair. And you know what? I can understand there is a logic to say, well, why should my son or your son or anybody inherit this business? They haven't worked in the business for 40 years and built the business up. But that's not the point. The point is a business is its own entity. The business isn't about the people, about the owners of the business, it's about the people who live and work in it and what this will do. And if a business is allowed to continue in flourish, it will continue to pay corporation tax, it will continue to pay other tax. Chances are if a business gets sold, it'll get sold offshore and all the taxes and corporation tax will get, you know, like be another Amazon or Starbucks. It'll get paid somewhere else. Somewhere else. That's what's going to happen.

[A]

Yeah, so that's the danger. So. Well, I'll be very interested to see what happens as a result of the case.

[B]

Yeah, well, Think Think is crossed. We'll probably find out by the time this podcast is aired.

[A]

Okay, well, we'll, we'll follow that with great interest in terms of your, your business. I mean, have you really put your plans on hold or have you got other sort of things you're going to be doing because of this? I mean, it sounded a bit like that from what you just said.

[B]

Well, that. Yeah, so. So in terms of investment, instead of a capital investment, I've, Yeah, I've put, I've put plans on hold. But yeah, I'm a creative person, you know, you can't really. I can't. I can't be put in the box. You know, I can see that I'm

[A]

imagining that might be hard to keep it on hold too long. Yeah.

[B]

So I'm like checking the box. So follow. And also, I've built up a fantastic team and the key thing is build up a team of people who are better than yourself. Don't get. Build up people who are, you know, who you can tell what to do or, you know, I've got a better marketing director than me. Mark Ballgrove. I've got a better MD and sales director. Yeah. Julie Atkins. I've got a better fd. I've got a better sales director. And I learn from them. We all learn from each other. And so, so what we're doing, yeah, we're creating new brands, we're building. We continue to, to do that. We can't, we can't, we can't stop. And, and actually to stay in business, you've, you've got to keep moving anyway because if we just stop doing anything,

[A]

you know what, the show goes on.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Keep reinventing yourself.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Well, I'm very pleased to hear that. So. Well, thank you very much for coming in to talk to me, Steve. Today. I've learned a lot about the drinks business especially, but also. And yeah, congratulations on building such a successful company and from turning a failure into success. That first business journey was clearly an important part of your life lesson.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And thank you for talking so candidly about that because I think in this country, people aren't as open about failure as they are in the United States. And it's A very important teacher. So one of the messages I like is failure is, is not a buffer, it's a signpost. And it's suggesting to send us in a slightly different direction, which you did spectacularly, successfully. So. Thank you, Steve. I asked two questions at the end, which I ask all my guests. The first, because at Reed we love Mondays, is what gets you up on a Monday morning.

[B]

Well, I love Mondays. It's best, best day of the week because. Yeah, well, I always go for a walk with my dog around the farm first thing in the morning and that's a day I can speak to my MD at the hotels, ask how the weekend's been. I then start to. I'm excited about, see what happened last week. All the sales teams send in their successors. So I can't wait to read the successors. And the great thing about Mondays, you've got so much to do ahead of you. When you get to Fridays, you think, oh, there's so many things I wanted to do this Friday and I've got to wait till Monday. So there's lots of things going on those weekends.

[A]

They're so annoying, aren't they? And then, and then the last question is, this is from my interview book. Why you is. Is where do you see yourself in five years time?

[B]

Well, hopefully I'm still here and hope you know, because it's very important. I'm still here with, with what the government are trying to do and hopefully my son's taking a more important stage in the business and we're expanding in the US where I'm very, very excited about and I want to make my business a bigger and bigger place and a better place for me, my team, a real family business. And one thing's for sure, we will be a, a privately owned family business. I'm not selling out.

[A]

You said something before we sat down that really struck me. You said a lifetime isn't enough to build a business. Is that how you feel? You want to take longer than that? I mean, it's. Is it a multi generational effort?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Is that how you see it? Yeah.

[B]

Your lifetime isn't enough. You know, you kind of, especially if you start from scratch, unless you're really looking and you have some great tech idea, you. You've got to build your business and then hopefully the next generation will take the business to the next stage. Because the difficulty is as an entrepreneur, very often entrepreneurs aren't necessarily great at running corporates and you have to metamorphosize and the second generation hopefully will build it. It's hard to build a business in one generation because, you know, you spend a lot of years, you have, as I said earlier, you have 10 years learning and going bust and starting again. And the thing is about a private, independent family business, you invest in the long term. You don't just invest like a PLC invest. We've got to make more profits this year to please the shareholders, otherwise I'll get fired. Whereas a private business with, we invest back into the business and continue to do so. And we also think differently about employees because I think as a family business, what we do is people often think you're less secure in a family business. But I've had ups and downs in my business and we hang on to the people. We don't say, oh, we make some cuts and save some money, then that's going to help our share price. You say, well these are good people, let's hang on to them because we'll find a way, they'll help us find a way out of this. And then if you've got your family involved in that business, they're also looking about, well, what's going to happen in 10 years time? It takes a long time to build even brands. VK's been around 25 years and it takes, and it's really important to, to let family businesses flourish in that way because it clogs to, well I, I,

[A]

I said clogs to clogs in three generations is a phrase I, I was

[B]

told, yeah, obviously to taipan back to Cooley again.

[A]

That's the Chinese version.

[B]

And yeah, and you know, hopefully, yeah, me, I'm a son. My family will take it, you know, to the next day. So it'll be be a huge drinks business, multinational drinks.

[A]

He has some pressure to become a Thai band.

[B]

I can see hopefully he's got the ambition to do so.

[A]

Excellent. Thanks very much, Steve. Thanks for coming in and we won't drink all these at once. Cheers. Thank you Steve for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host James Reed, chairman and c CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Global brands or Reed, you'll find links in the show notes. Thank you for listening and see you next time.