← James Reed: all about business
James Reed: all about business
75. How to calculate what you're worth in the job market | Leanne Appleton
00:28:56
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. Welcome to All About Business shorts, where we share practical advice you will actually use. In this episode, we're tackling a question almost everyone worries about how to achieve a good salary when starting a new job. I'm joined by Leanne Appleton, one of our top RE consultants who advises candidates on salary expectations and negotiations. Every single day, we'll talk about knowing your worth, understanding what's fair and why the best offer isn't always the highest number. If you want to avoid underselling yourself or overpricing yourself out of opportunities, this episode is for you. Well, today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to introduce our spring shorts season. This is a new take on All About Business, where I've invited recruitment specialists to come and talk to me about things that are really important to people in their work and careers. And I couldn't be more happy than to see Leanne Appleton in the studio today. Leanne is a senior recruitment manager with us at Reed. She's in her 20th year at the company and she's a real expert on something that's going to be really of great interest to a great many people, and that is how to achieve a good salary. When you're applying for a job, I mean, money talks, money matters, people care about it. And it's often a sensitive subject. You know, people are worried necessarily to ask for more or achieve what they believe. They. And you're going to help guide us here.
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B
I'll do my best.
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A
So, welcome. Thank you for coming in all the way from Bristol to talk to me this morning. So what should someone be thinking about when they're applying for a job and they're thinking, what am I worth? What sort of salary might I achieve here?
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B
That's quite an open question. And what I would say is try and take the emotion out of that decision. It's not what you think you deserve. It's actually about your capability and experience in the market and placing yourself correctly. And I think candidates, there's a lot of insights out in the market and to assess their. Their actual capability and where they're, where they should pitch themselves has to be done correctly. And I think a lot of candidates at the beginning, if it's a direct applicant, don't normally necessarily have those conversations. If they work and engage with a partnership of a recruiter, they can navigate and take that kind of pain point out of it and help them on that journey to achieve the best package. But I think in terms of assessing their ability and how to pitch it, there's so many tools to our disposal to allow them to understand how and get their benchmarking correct. Shall I tell you a few ways?
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A
Well, you said a lot there that I quite like to sort of just sort of start, start to investigate. So take the emotion out of it. Yes, I mean that's easy to say and often hard to do.
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B
It really is.
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A
How do you do that to start with?
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B
Look, we all, we all work to have a good life and we have bills to pay and we've got lovely things that we want to do. But candidates have to take the emotion of what they think they deserve when they don't, if they don't understand. For example, I registered a candidate recently that been in post for 10 years, never worked with another business before, they didn't know their worth. So when they came to me and asked, I actually don't know what the market is detailing for me, please can you help me establish and understand what my market worth is? So it's a bit of a deeper delve. But then there are other candidates who come in all guns blazing saying I've seen this job paying 50,000, I'm on 40, I want the 50. When actually we have to have an educated conversation about, let's go through CV history, your career aspirations and goals and break it down.
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A
What can you actually do? What's your experience?
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B
It's about demonstrating worth and capability and being able to articulate that, to be able to get that negotiation power.
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A
So you as a recruiter who's been in the market for two decades has a lot of information at your fingertips, just a little bit which you're using hopefully helpfully. So, so I mean it seems self serving. It is, but, but for a candidate to have a recruiter alongside them is actually very helpful in these discussions with a potential employer.
- [04:35]
B
I think it's advantageous, I think it's a real benefit. I think those that go direct to the market, it's not a seamless process. Let's be honest, looking for a job is incredibly daunting. It could be that they've gone through redundancy and they're in, they're feeling very vulnerable or it could be that they they just want to strive and they're being under recognized in their current firm. So actually working in partnership with a specialist recruiter who lives and breathes that market space, they're only going to get good things from that. So I would, for example, I do bespoke benchmarking, read, have salary guys, which is incredible, some market intelligence information with job boards and LinkedIn insights and salary guides, but actually someone on the ground who knows their space incredibly well is incredibly advantageous and beneficial for any candidate.
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A
So a good ally and that service is free of charge to candidates?
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B
It is, it is.
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A
And you want them to get a good job?
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B
Of course. I want to go on that journey with them, I want to champion them all the way and I want to take the pain points out of it and make it as seamless as possible because it is a daunting process, going for an interview and trying to secure a new job opportunity and I want to take that pain piece away and make it as easy as I possibly can.
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A
You talked about benchmarking yourself.
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B
Yes.
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A
Comparing yourself with the market. What are the key factors someone should be looking at to do that successfully, accurately, usefully?
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B
Well, it depends on. There's a lot of regional differentiators in terms of location. It depends on the role that you do. It goes against skills, experience and qualifications and set knowledge. So we have to break down exactly what your worth is in terms of being able to identify where we need to pitch your salary correctly with all the will in the world. We all want to earn £100,000, have a Ferrari parked out front, but how are we going to reach those goals and what are your career aspirations to achieve that? So we need to kind of take a step back and understand what their expectations are. But does it align to the market trends and market worth and what they're going to be realistically going to be able to achieve.
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A
So that sounds like, you know, quite a delicate conversation.
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B
It is, it is.
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A
When you're assessing what someone's worth, I mean, that is quite. I mean, take the emotion out of it. But you say to me, you're not worth as much as you thought you were.
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B
Well, we don't say that directly.
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A
You don't say, well, how do you deal with that?
- [06:53]
B
I think the one thing that I pride myself on is good service and treating candidates as I would want to be treated and understanding their drivers and motivations to either be passively or actively looking in the market and their circumstances. We've all got bills to pay and salary and base rate is absolutely Key and paramount how. However, there's a number of key other factors that candidates are important to them, such as benefits, flexible working, a healthy life, work balance, as well as that kind of ethos and culture fit. So there's a number of things that candidates need to consider over just salary. So when having a conversation with them and being very delicate in my approach, I want to get them on side, I want to champion them all the way and I want them to understand what their worth is and how we're going to achieve that. But we always have to have a what's your current expectation, what's the reasons for? And then I can let them know a bit more market insight of what's realistic and then we can work together in terms of articulating that through an interview scenario process and then obviously taking the power away of doing the negotiation so they don't have to worry about those difficult conversations because talking salary can be very awkward.
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A
Yeah. And you can do that for them?
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B
Absolutely.
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A
This Earth Day, your gift can make double the difference. From the 22nd to the 29th of April, through biggive.org donations to environmental charities will be doubled. Earth Rays gives you the power to turn your generosity into real lasting impact. Together we can protect wildlife, restore habitats and help nature thrive. Visit biggive.org between the 22nd and 29th April, choose a cause close to your heart and make double the difference. Thank you for supporting Earth Race. So how does an applicant know if an advertised salary is actually fair? I mean, often there are sort of bans advertised or sometimes salaries aren't advertised at all.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
So how can an applicant or candidate know that they're getting a fair deal?
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B
To be honest, job adverts can be very misleading. It's all based on job titles. Someone looks at a job title, thinks, I can do that, it pays £10,000 more than my current salary, so that's what I should be recognised to earn. But I think job adverts, as you know, there's the lower and upper end, it all depends on skills, experience and qualifications in the industry. And I think when discussing this with candidates, we have to identify what they do on a day to day basis, how it applies and where the essential skills are and to pitch it that that way. But I think in my market I specialise in financial services. We're a bit job buoyant and we're candidate shy, so so can. It's actually rule the roof somewhat.
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A
So you're looking for more people?
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B
Absolutely. So it's more of a What skills
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A
are in short supply?
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B
Very much short supply. Even my bread and butter business, IFA support roles, for example, used to have five CVs to every job and it'll be filled pretty instantly. Everyone's chomping at the bit now for that kind of caliber because they are the backbone of any thriving IFA business. So. And because those candidates know they're in demand, they feel that they can warrant a higher salary expectation, when actually that's not reality. There's some corporate businesses that have very strict structure of salary levels and there's other smaller IFA businesses that actually are a bit more agile and can be flexible and be accommodating. But we need to know where that is about that kind of skill and what's scarce and what's in demand and the trends and that way we can warrant more of a premium payment.
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A
Yeah. So larger companies often have paid layers, don't they?
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B
They do.
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People need to fit into, which can make negotiation a little less flexible.
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B
That's correct.
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A
But you're saying smaller ones, you can often get a better deal.
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B
Absolutely. No, absolutely. I work with an array of, of businesses in my industry. I work with your corporate that are very, very regimented and structured in terms of that what they can offer. And smaller outfits have a. You're talking to the man that holds or the woman that holds their purse strings. So they've got flexibility. They know that there is an absolute need and this is a sense of urgency in the business and it's a real requirement. They will pay over the odds, as they may think, to get that candidate attraction in. But actually what they're going to get is a really good, solid candidate that's going to deliver with what they want and hopefully reap the rewards and add that instant value.
- [11:14]
A
So. So the market you're working in, financial services you've just described, is what I would call a seller's market. The people applying for jobs in that market have got quite a lot of negotiating power. Do you find that you're in the intermediary, in conversations when the employer's saying I'm offering X, but the candidate's saying I want Y quite a lot. And how do you achieve an outcome where both are happy?
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B
Very much so. I think what's really, really important as a recruiter in speaking to candidates and clients alike is making sure that at the very beginning we're setting the scene and managing expectations. Obviously, it's really difficult to pitch a candidate sentence salary when there's a banding. I would obviously benchmark their salary. So we would always discuss and agree what is right according to their needs as well as the market requirements. But when submitting a candidate forward, the real power comes into play once you demonstrate and articulate your worth and capabilities at an interview. And that's where the negotiation power comes in and that's where we kind of hold the cards somewhat, but it's hard to get to that point. And my motto in life is, if you fail to prepare, you're prepared to fail. So there are some candidates in the market that can articulate themselves very well at an interview scenario and that brings great results. And there's others that are vastly experienced but just not good in interview situations. So it's about understanding your candidate inside out and going on that journey with them to make sure that we can achieve the best outcome.
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A
Yeah, Often the best candidates are not good at interviews because they haven't had a lot of practice because they've been doing a great job somewhere else.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
As someone who's done lots of interviews might be better at doing.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
So you have to gauge. So it's a, this combination of capability and experience is, is what you're looking for and, and that's key, as you say, and that's what a, an individual needs to evaluate. Do you find that, you know, employers are often lowballing salaries because they haven't been in the market for a while or they're not aware that this, this is an area where there's a lot of competition now for people and you have to talk them up somewhat. You might be talking some applicants down a little, but you have to talk the employer up to explain, you know, you're not going to get anyone at that if you advertise a job at that level.
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B
Indeed, unfortunately for me, that's a common conversation that I have to have and it's an educated piece that I have to deliver to them. And all the will in the world is, you know, I'll ask them what their requirements are, what's the reason, what's the pain points, what happens if someone isn't in situ, what's the, what's going to happen, who's going to deal with the workload, what's the cost involved? And when you really pull things down in that regard, they then realise, right, okay, I need to make sure that I'm attracting the right talent into my business, what do I need to pay? And that then goes down to benchmarking. I will then, in that area, let them know of direct competitors to them what their offerings are. And if we're looking to poach from that same pool, they need to be able to grab attention. And unfortunately that is instantly the package on offer. Not just baseline, but actually the benefits, the remuneration, the career progression prospects and all the nice fluffier things which actually are more important to candidates these days than just a salary.
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A
I mean, one of the most common mistakes that candidates make when assessing their
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salary expectations, I think the common mistake is some undervalue and don't know their worth and they don't have the confidence to have those conversations. So they just hope that someone's gonna take the reins of that. And actually those conversations had at the very latter stages when it's a little bit too late and then they feel a bit devalued. I think candidates feel unconfident and find it awkward and don't wanna miss out on the opportunity by having those conversations from the very get go.
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A
So people, people were shy about talking about money? Is that what it is? It seems like when you were describing this, it seems like a sort of British reserve might be getting in the way of achieving.
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B
Well, actually There's a fact 76% of clients expect candidates to discuss salary from the very get go throughout the journey of the recruitment process or through the agency. And that's because it's no longer should be an awkward conversation, it should be something with confidence because that has to manage everyone's expectations and not waste time. So I think there are candidates that undersell themselves and don't do that correctly and it's too late by the end of it. There are other candidates that actually come oversell and expect too much. And it's about having that conversation with them and trying to set the scene and having that educated conversation saying, okay, why do you think you're worth that? Take the emotion about what you deserve, but let's kind of put things on the line and why do you believe that salary is achievable? And if it isn't achievable, let's agree where it should be set and what you need to do to achieve those financial goals in the future.
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A
So. So with your long experience as a recruiter, do you see oversell or undersell more?
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B
I think I see oversell and I think that's purely due to the market. As I said, we're job buoyant candidates, shy, so they rule the roof somewhat. And I think with the job advertisements that are on, they're very wide salary bandings. And I think if someone thinks, oh, I can do that job I want to reach that top end straight away when actually let's get to the kind of nooks and the crannies of your experience, your skills and qualifications and do they apply and will it allow you to kind of justify. We get that kind of offering.
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Yeah. But aim high must be a good one.
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B
Aim high.
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A
I mean you shouldn't encourage people to aim high.
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B
I mean, but I think in some roles there's ceilings, there are some positions, there's a ceiling in salary in return. But if you want to earn more money, you need to know where your career goals and aspirations are and what you need to do to achieve that. So it's a journey they got to look at short term to medium to long term. A bit like the question you've asked me about the five year plan. I think that's really important to understand what someone's motivations are and where their career aspirations are set and they will. Sometimes you have to take, take a step back to move forward and I think it has to be a journey. It's not a, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. You really have to understand your market to achieve those goals and get that return.
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A
I remember being told years ago by an experienced recruiter that to, to get a good candidate to move, you need to pay at least a 10% premium on the going rate or what they're currently getting. And, and the follow up to that was. And the difference between a good candidate and a mediocre one is massive exponential. So it's worth the investment.
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B
It really is.
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A
And it does surprise me how so many conversations get stuck here over relatively small amounts of money.
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B
Yeah. When I speak to clients and if they are restricted in terms of the offering that they can provide, I ask them what else they can give to a candidate. Candidates are attracted by multiple things and what we need to do understands their motivators and drivers and also then align them to what that client can offer. So it could be hybrid working, flexible, working, being a working mum, for example. Read of. I'm very fortunate. I've gone through quite a lot tough time in the last couple of years and being a single mum and I thought I might have had to leave my job. But having conversations with my management team, they said, we know you're worth your weight in gold, you've delivered, you've been with us for a long time, we want to give you the flexibility. And I can do school drops, sometimes school pickups and I work around the clock and it allows me to flourish and thrive. And I'm very dedicated to the cause and very, very grateful. So I think the same for clients. They need to look at candidates and what their expectations are and what their drivers and motivators are. So even though salary and package is important for some it might be flexible working hours, it might be hybrid dynamic and that saves time and cost. So we just need to align candidate to client and offering to make sure that both are going to be mutually agreed.
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A
Yeah, I think that often gets overlooked. I mean it's very important to people, especially now, as you say, this opportunity to work flexibly and we see that a lot, don't we, in candidates saying I want to have that do on the, on the offer do. So it's not all about money.
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B
It isn't. I think back in the day salary was always number one and it always made me very apprehensive when registering and speaking to candidates. I believe it should be in the top three drivers for looking but it shouldn't be the be all or end all. I think now more than ever. And one thing that I've done quite prominently over the last couple of years is not just benchmark. When I work with companies I don't just benchmark the positions that they're looking to hire and make sure that they're setting the scene and going to attract the right talent. I look at what their remuneration package is, what else can you add? Where's the added value? And that could be the benefits.
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A
I mean, that's interesting to me. So for entrepreneurs or employers listening, what are some good things they should be adding to? Salary Multiple. Come on then, come on, Liam.
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B
So benefits are really key. You know, we're all sort of benefits, we're all getting older so I think it's long term security and safety. So good pension contribution, good deaf and service. It's all the healthcare cover. It's genuine career progression prospects with the exam support and actually covering the cost of the study, the material the study leaves the exam and then.
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A
And so if you're doing professional studies.
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B
Professional studies, absolutely. So that can speak volumes because if a candidate has no exams in my industry and then get level four qualified, that can bulk up your salary quite significantly and that opens up more doors in terms of job opportunities. So you're not hitting a ceiling you that you go into various areas within that business. But it's not just the salary benefits such as pension and healthcare, really good holiday entitlement, it could even be gift in a few years.
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A
What's a really good holiday entitlement? These days?
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B
Well, I wouldn't like to. There's some that are very, very low, but I would say 20.
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A
What's very low?
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Well, I've got some clients that do 20 days.
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A
That's the minimum, isn't it?
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B
Minimum. But when I speak to them and say that's incredibly low in comparison to what someone else has, sometimes I've been able to navigate and agree and negotiate gifting over Christmas so they don't need to take that out of their holiday entitlement. So these little changes and shifts can really make a difference because it can. It makes. That makes them feel valued and that they'll be in a.
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A
This is very useful for companies where money is tight and that's a lot of companies at the moment that they have other levers that they can pull to attract really strong applicants along the lines that you're describing.
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B
See, even things like volunteering days that to some that might not be important, but to others it would be. And it's also bonus potential. That's luxury, it's discretionary. But knowing what previously they've done. And is this quite common, is bonuses, are those rewards quite common? Are they going to happen? It's also salary reviews. Do they do their salary reviews? When are those salary reviews? So there's a number of things.
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A
So they can promise that?
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B
Absolutely, at the very beginning so they know what they need to work towards.
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A
So would they typically do that at the end of a probation period or not?
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B
Well, sometimes. Actually recently I've had clients that have offered a candidate a very competitive salary, but not as much the candidate wanted. But all the other other elements have bolstered on that. And what they've done is they've said what we'll do is after successful probation, demonstrating your worth and capability, we'll review your salary at the end of your probationary period and we actually have that written in contract. So then they know they're going to get an increment potentially within six months and then hopefully 12 months later when the annual pay review is.
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A
And was the candidate satisfied with that?
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Absolutely.
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Right. So that's quite a good way of going. If you're not quite there in terms of agreeing right at the beginning, look at it again after your probation. I think it's really hard because like an extended interview.
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B
Absolutely. And I think you've got to demonstrate worthing capability. As I said, you've got to do the do. You can go to an interview and really articulate yourself very well and, you know, skills and experience all align but actually until you're in, you don't really know your full potential and the value you're going to add. I don't believe in hit the ground running experience. I don't like it when someone wants someone to hit the ground running. You could be a power planning one firm to a power planning to another. Different back office systems, different research tools, it might be different advisor contacts. So there's a lot of moving parts that allow everyone needs a transitional period, a settling in period. So I think probations are really important and if you want to make sure you grab candidates attention, have those increments of salary once they're demonstrating where the capability rather than saying there's no pay review.
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A
I've always thought the first three months in any job are really tough because you've got to find your way around just to sort of know the people, know the systems, know the customers.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
It takes a bit of time to get your feet under the table, it really, really does.
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B
And you need to know your audience, you need to know what is required, what are their expectations. Job titles I think are quite misleading. I think people look at job adverts, look at a job title, see a salary range, think that's what I'm worth. When actually they got to look to the day to day duties and actually the firm that they're joining, does it align to their ethos, their ethics, their way of working, is it an environment where they can thrive, is it supportive? Do they have the training to allow them to flourish and shine? Or. Or is it a small affirm whereby you've got to hit the ground running, as they say, and pick up the pieces? Without that extra resource and support, those candidates will really, really struggle.
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A
Sometimes some people are suited to one and more suited to the other.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
Your job I guess to point people, to identify that, point people in the right direction.
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B
I'll try my best.
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A
As best you can. That's incredibly helpful. Is there any last bit of advice you'd give a job seeker on achieving the best salary for them?
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B
I think so. I think one thing I would point out is counter offers. When I speak to candidates I need to understand if they're active, passive or just keeping an open mind in the market what their main drivers are. If it's purely salary focus, I really want to kind of understand what that is and get to the deeper depths to understand if there's anything else that we can negotiate. I also then immediately talk to them about counteroffers. I don't want them to be a statistic and I Hate using facts, but within six to 12 months of those accept a counteroffer are back in the market because money is a short term fix. All the underlining factors of the trust has lost.
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A
Well, I have a theory progression.
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B
Yeah, you do.
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A
If a situation arises where someone who's come to you and been offered a job by one of your clients is then counteroffered by their existing employer offering them more money, I think the relationship at that point is over done because from the candidate's point of view, they think my employer's been underpaying me. I don't know for how long, but they've been underpaying me if they can now pay me more. And from the employer's point of view, they're thinking, well this person, they're looking around, they're not loyal. I don't trust them anymore.
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B
The trust is broken.
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A
So it's severed, as you just said, it really is. So that's a useful tip for anyone. If you're going to go and get a job offer somewhere and they make you a good offer, be committed, absolutely be committed.
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B
And actually, if it is purely money focused, go to your manager. Have those conversations before you go out to the market and start actually looking for other opportunities. Have those conversations, see if there's any, any conversation or, or any increments that could be had rather than doing it and use as leverage when getting an offer at the end.
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A
That's a brilliant segue, Leanne, because my next guest on Spring Shorts is going to talk about how to get a pay rise.
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B
I did that on purpose, so we'll
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A
come back to that in the next episode. Thanks very much. Coming in. I'm going to ask you two questions that I always ask my guests at the end of a podcast. The first is what gets you up on a Monday morning, apart from my
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B
kids at 5:30 in the morning. Well, the reason I get up on a Monday morning for work is I want to make an impact. I want to improve lives through work that I do. I want to offer stellar advice and service and proactive, and proactive support and work in partnership with my clients and candidates. So I like the small wins, obviously to get the bigger wins, but I just want to know that I've made a difference to someone's life through the work that I do.
- [27:02]
A
Well, I hope you were able to do that for many years to come. I can see that you're doing that on a regular basis. And my last question from my interview book, why you 101 questions you'll never fear Again, Leanne, is where do you see yourself in five years time?
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B
Oh, professionally, as. As you've just indicated, I'm in my 20th year. Very grateful. Absolutely feel very fortunate that I love the job that I do. I've gone through multiple promotions at Reed. I think for me job security and stability is really important. I'm at a time in my life where I know what I'm good at and I want to continue. Don't change if it doesn't need fixing. But I do want to bolster on my team, make sure that we're successful. I want to be the recruiter of choice and I want my reputation to be maintained and I also want to mentor others and maybe do more podcasts after this experience. You never know. But I just want to be able to deliver my experience through others and make sure that I've empowered them and make a difference. So actually, even though I don't want to be a director, I think I just want to continue to do good work and I'll reap the rewards from that.
- [28:07]
A
Well, I certainly hope we can support you in that ambition. Thank you for many years. Thanks so much for coming in.
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B
My pleasure.
- [28:12]
A
I really enjoyed the conversation and thank you for sharing your expertise, which I know many listeners will find helpful.
- [28:17]
B
Thank you.
- [28:18]
A
Thank you. Thank you, Leanne, for joining me on All About Business Shorts. I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you want to explore this topic further, I've also written about pay progression and career decisions in my book why 101 interview questions you'll never fear again. You'll find links and resources in the show Notes. Thank you for listening and see. See you next time.