A (3:15)

So KPI, in case people don't know, is key performance indicator. So this, this is where the company said you need to achieve X, Y and Z.

B (3:21)

Exactly. Yeah.

A (3:22)

You're banging it, nailing it. You're doing that and then you know you're being asked to do more and more.

B (3:28)

Yep.

A (3:28)

Maybe more difficult things, more complex things that maybe you weren't asked to do when you started is that those are the points you're making.

B (3:35)

Exactly, yeah.

A (3:36)

And I had a conversation with someone I know quite recently was asking me for some advice on this and they were clearly being asked to do a bigger job because their employer had realized they're a capable person and they were being asked to do more and more tasks that were above the pay grade they had initially joined it.

B (3:54)

Sometimes it can happen as well when a business is going through some hardships. So say for example, there's redundancies taking place, some middle management might have been removed and you're, you're taking up duties that you might not necessarily have been doing before and you're sort of absorbing those and sort of taking those accountabilities without actually being recognized for them. It's important to remember them, log them and bring them up in these reviews because it's important that you're recognized for that hard work and the value added piece.

A (4:23)

Yeah. Because the jobs changed.

B (4:25)

It does.

A (4:25)

So the terms should change accordingly.

B (4:27)

Exactly.

A (4:28)

Yeah. That's really interesting. I think that's happening a lot at the moment with, with, with businesses adjusting to the difficult economy and regrettably redundancies.

B (4:36)

100.

A (4:37)

But that doesn't mean people shouldn't be paid fairly for the work that they're doing. So what's the biggest mistake people make when they go into a pay rise conversation?

B (4:46)

I think the number one for me is not being prepared. You've got to know your numbers in terms of if you are in a, in a commercial role where it's, it's value added, you have to know your numbers. And if so you mean a sales job, for instance. Exactly. Sales would. Or like a commercial manager. Qs. Anywhere where there's a number, the number is key. If it's not that. And it's, it's something else. I think it's, it's the business impact. What would, what would happen if, if I weren't here fulfilling these duties? I think ultimately that is the key.

A (5:21)

So when this is interesting. So you say the number is key. So everyone's in a different job, by definition. They should be looking for which numbers are the most important drivers in their particular role or business. And they should know them and be able to refer to them when they have this conversation.

B (5:38)

Yeah, exactly.

A (5:39)

But what about that? Just sort of going up to your boss at the wrong moment? Isn't that a problem? Isn't timing important here as well as being well informed?

B (5:47)

Timing is crucial. I mean, like, the most important thing on this topic is the fact that it's not always going to be the right time because businesses do go through hardship. There's times when there's cutbacks. The business might not necessarily be performing at the level in which it wishes to. So being aware of your space and aware of how your team are doing, the business is doing in general is so important when asking this topic. Yeah, it's, it's crucial. Like knowing where the business are in relation to their goals and, and knowing whether it's realistic to ask for this, this increase.

A (6:22)

I'm thinking more, you know, it's a busy Monday afternoon. Someone says, I want to pay rise and you sort of get out of my head situation.

B (6:29)

Yeah.

A (6:29)

I mean, it shouldn't, we shouldn't be scheduling these conversations as a sort of formal meeting.

B (6:35)

Always, always. They can be brought up in reviews, periodic reviews, monthly reviews, quarterly reviews, appraisals.

A (6:44)

If someone doesn't get, I mean, that, that's good practice, that people get reviews, but not everyone does, do they? So they should ask for a review. Yeah, always ask and then say as part of that, I'd like to have a conversation about my package.

B (6:56)

Yep.

A (6:58)

So it's good to be up front, is it?

B (7:00)

Absolutely. Always, always do it in person as well. There's, I think post Covid, there's a nervousness around people meeting face to face and, and having that, that sort of communication line in person. But ultimately it's the best way to build trust. You can see someone's body language, how they're reacting to your question, and from that you can see where the conversation's going and, and sort of, you should then know whether it is likely of that pay rise maybe coming.

A (7:27)

Okay, so you meet your boss face to face in person.

B (7:30)

Yeah.

A (7:30)

You tell them that you're doing a really Good job. The number is good. And you say, I'm not getting as much as I feel I should be. And they say, well, I'm sorry to hear that, Connor, but I can't do

B (7:43)

any more for you at this time or in, in general?

A (7:47)

Well, that might be your subsequent question at this time or in general. I mean, yeah, I mean it might. So, I mean they have different outcomes, of course, those answers. But I mean, I was thinking more at this time, so you would say. So how would you respond to that? As a pay rise seeking person?

B (8:05)

I think you need to go into the conversation knowing that there is the potential that it doesn't go the way you want it to because they can't always do otherwise. Businesses would, businesses profits would just decrease.

A (8:18)

And also there's lots of other factors involved. Like what other people are being paid.

B (8:21)

Exactly. There needs to be parity, doesn't there? But ultimately, if you're taking on more responsibility that you feel is above and beyond your pay and you're on your, you're sort of measuring it, you're tracking it and you're being able to evidence the, the work that you're doing above and beyond where you feel you're paid, then you're in with a good shout. And it's, it's sort of that it, it's sort of good to be indispensable, but it's also, it can be quite detrimental to you as well as the person. When you go on holiday, you don't necessarily want to be always contactable, but ultimately, sometimes that's what it takes to prove your worth to the business.

A (8:58)

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B (9:47)

It's difficult, I think, like you know your true value and if you genuinely feel like it's fine to like your employees, but ultimately you've got a career and you, if you really want to carry that and take that somewhere. And if you've got a vision of the destination or the journey you want to go on, it can be hard staying in the same place. No matter how much you like that, that employer.

A (10:07)

What would you advocate saying to that employer? You know, I really like working here, I like working with you, but, you know, I've got other requirements and I think I'm being underpaid. If I don't get a pay rise, I'll look for another job. Would you advocate being that direct?

B (10:20)

You could, I think, in different. Risky though it is, it is absolutely risky, but in certain industries it's the norm. I like, for example, construction. I mean, these conversations happen quite regularly and people are quite abrupt, so they

A (10:33)

might say no or yes or just

B (10:36)

clear outlines of when those expectations can be met.

A (10:39)

Right.

B (10:39)

Like, for example, if in construction, I use it as an example because it's the market we work in, but if there's a project that's upcoming that no, we're going to bring in X amount a million pounds, then it's more likely that that pay review will be put in and met. But it just needs to be.

A (10:54)

So time it with new sort of business, new projects, initiatives, New projects wins.

B (10:59)

Exactly.

A (10:59)

A good time. Another strategy might be to say, I'd like to do more. Do you come across that, yeah, I'm here, I can do more, I'm available, but I'd like to be paid more as well.

B (11:10)

Yeah, exactly that. It's always good to put your hand

A (11:12)

up, put yourself forward, put your hand

B (11:14)

up, without a doubt. And sometimes it's saying yes without actually saying yes, just doing it. And we, we see that in, again, in our space, in our office, with people just absorbing sort of those, those management duties that might not necessarily be asked of, but you just do it, you take accountability and you sort of, you get on with the day to day and then you remember, you remind

A (11:37)

people no to that.

B (11:39)

Exactly, yeah.

A (11:40)

And say, well, look at me, look at what I'm doing now.

B (11:42)

Or like what you mentioned there about, you know, saying yes. Yeah, almost putting your hand up. I want to, I want to take on more responsibility.

A (11:51)

So the more I'm talking to you, Connor, the more I'm thinking that there's a. This is all about being proactive 100 and dynamic, whether it's your contribution to the company or the conversations you're having with your line manager, that you're having a sort of live experience of ensuring that you're adding value. Of course. And the more Value you add, the more you will be paid. Ultimately. That's your message, is it?

B (12:15)

It is, yeah. And it's all about building trust. And that's why, again, can't stress strongly enough, this conversation to take place in person. Just because so much can be lost over a screen. It's so important to have these, these interactions in person so you can truly get across how you feel.

A (12:34)

So don't ask for a pay rise on FaceTime.

B (12:37)

I think it's difficult, isn't it, because you.

A (12:38)

Well, that's what you're saying. I've never done it, but yeah, yeah.

B (12:41)

It just takes away a little bit of the emotion. It's. We see loads and loads of interviews happening now on, on Team Zoom over a screen. It's great. It's sort of changed the world really, hasn't it? But in terms of.

A (12:54)

But when you're actually working with people, you need to sit with them. And this is.

B (12:57)

Unless there's a, like a reason why that conversation cannot take place in person, it should be done in person.

A (13:03)

This is. That's very interesting because that puts asking for a pay rise in quite a small category of conversations that absolutely should be in person. I'm thinking of others. I mean, they're probably all sorts of funny things, but. But, you know, there aren't that many that you would say, if you're going to do that, make sure it's in

B (13:20)

person, because it can be diluted, can't it? If you. If you bring it up and it's not necessarily a structured, you know, put in the diary review or anything like that, the message could be lost over a screen. Whereas in person you can be quite clear and sort of concise with your request and the reasons in. In which why. And it's secured time, isn't it? When it's in the diary, there's no distractions. People can't come in and interrupt. Like, it's very much protected time.

A (13:48)

So you've described a situation where an individual is contributing a lot or more and that's the basis on which they would ask for a pay rise. We also have a situation where just prices are going up. You know, inflation has been high. What do you suggest people do in that situation?

B (14:07)

It's a valid point, I think. It's always good to know the value you're adding and the cost in which your replacement might be. So being in touch with your market, knowing what competitors are paying for, the roles and responsibilities you're taking on. Because how do you do that? It's the mark the data is all out there. You just got to go and use the web.

A (14:29)

Just look online.

B (14:30)

Yeah, it's all available to you in five minutes, probably. Yeah. And obviously we've got chat, GPT, all these AI tools now that can sort of get this information to you even quicker than you could before.

A (14:42)

So, you know, if you want to know what the going rate for a quantity surveyor is in Milton Keynes, you can find out pretty quickly.

B (14:48)

And also, like, the chances are if you're a quantity surveyor, you've probably gone to university with individuals of the same ilk. You'll be having conversations with them about how they're getting on, where they are in their careers. And you've just got to be really in touch with your market. It's all about being in the center of that market and, and knowing where you are in comparison to your peers and being able to relay that to your employer.

A (15:10)

Right. How do you know if you're better than your peers at your job?

B (15:15)

You just say yes more. I think it's also yes more than

A (15:18)

what's a request to do stuff. Yeah, I think you'll learn more doing that. For sure. You will.

B (15:21)

Yeah. And it's, I think the more you say yes, the better opportunities come your way and people will remember the fact that you've said yes to, to all the opportunities you have and, and you'll, you'll sort of five years down the line, you'll be in a completely different place based on people who maybe haven't taken on that responsibility.

A (15:39)

Yeah. You've reminded me of a saying, the more often you say yes, the sooner you'll be having an adventure.

B (15:45)

I've seen that somewhere, actually.

A (15:46)

I like that saying. I remember telling it to my kids and it's true. But in the workplace, say yes and you'll go further, be paid more and have more of an adventure is kind of the message I'm hearing.

B (15:59)

Exactly that. Yeah, it's, it's amazing what happens when you, when you take on stuff and, and you look back actually, like in your own. I look back at my career and, and how it's developed over the course of time and the majority of opportunities that have come my way have, because it been, because I've said yes, taken on a bit more responsibility and, and sort of developed.

A (16:18)

There is a sort of counter view where people say, well, that's not in my job description or, you know, that's not what I've been asked to do here. What do you say to them?

B (16:27)

I'd say that's. It's not necessarily a growth mindset. It depends what sort of person you want to be. But if you're the sort of person that's going to be asking for a pay rise, I would assume you, you're fairly confident of being able to secure that. Because if, if you've got your ducks in a row and you know exactly what your value added, the number, as we mentioned before, and if it's not that, you know what, what's being asked of you that's not being asked of other people, you'd be confident enough to go into that conversation, if that makes sense.

A (16:57)

So if you go into the conversation, you start with some confidence that you might achieve what you want and, but you get rebutted. And I'm interested in this because how do you come back? Is, is it, is it fair to say, well, what do I need to do to get a pay rise?

B (17:13)

Absolutely, that's a fair question. I think ultimately if you, if, if reviews aren't a thing in your world, it would be good to sort of make sure they are and ask for those to be put in.

A (17:22)

So if not frequently.

B (17:24)

Yeah, exactly. So I would say in our business we do them sort of monthly, but they can be put in quarterly, six monthly. The pay reviews as a standard are probably done six monthly, depending on what your role is. But yeah, I would say making sure that those are in and reviews are taking place, sort of.

A (17:47)

So you want to have a regular conversation where you can raise it again.

B (17:50)

Exactly.

A (17:50)

Or what about asking for a bonus? If something happens that's positive, don't come across.

B (17:55)

I don't think that's a bad idea.

A (17:57)

I'm just thinking about other strategies.

B (17:59)

Yeah, it's become more and more like

A (18:02)

where that's aligned with a business outcome.

B (18:04)

Yeah, absolutely. If it's become more and more relevant in roles which is like fee earning or generating, like business development, especially in construction, like everything's about the, the final project and how much that that project is going to generate. Actually if you know that your role is, is key in making sure that that project is over the line, then you are more entitled to ask for that bonus. It depends what the individual's sort of wants are really.

A (18:30)

But this point you've made about the replay cost of replacing somebody, that has to be handled quite delicately, doesn't it? Because you know that is real. Typically it's going to take a bit of time to recruit someone. There's going to be a fees involved potentially you're probably going to have to pay a premium anyway on the salary. But if you push that button too hard, you look disloyal and sort of grabby, don't you?

B (18:53)

You do, yeah. You want to try and position it.

A (18:55)

So how do you make sure that sort of. Someone's sort of aware of that without it being too obvious?

B (19:01)

You. You don't want it to be an ultimatum.

A (19:03)

No, definitely not.

B (19:04)

You're trying to build trust. It's an appro. You've got to approach the conversation with caution. But also, as the conversation has gone on, this is something that you probably do towards the end of the conversation when you know which way it's going. So you've alluded to the fact that maybe it's not going to happen yet. There's a project we're waiting to win that might not necessarily come off. If it doesn't, it's probably less likely to happen. And if that's the case, then you've almost got to picture. Allow the. The individual you're dealing with, the hiring manager, to picture a world without you in it. Without saying, I'm leaving.

A (19:41)

Well, you could say something. I mean, I was thinking, listening to you, you could say something like, I really want to build my career here.

B (19:45)

Yeah. It's a journey together.

A (19:47)

Like, that's not saying you're going to do that for sure, because this outcome hasn't been exactly.

B (19:51)

It's a partnership. So you want to say, look, I'm in the boat with you and we're rowing together. I just maybe need a bigger. Or I need. I need a bit of help. And, and these are the reasons why. This is what I've done, this is what I've delivered and I should. Should be paid in. In parity with that.

A (20:08)

Yeah. If one or is being pulled harder than the other, the boat goes in circle.

B (20:12)

Maybe we all get bigger.

A (20:14)

So that. That's sort of. That, that's. That's quite important, isn't it? Is there any other advice? What. What advice would you give to an employer? Yeah. When someone says, I think I'm worth more, what. What would you say to them? Because they may or may not be. How should they approach?

B (20:32)

And it's important to, like, seriously think about whether that individual is adding significant value. Are they going above and beyond in their role? What would life look like without them? How much is it going to cost to replace that person? Because we all know that, you know.

A (20:47)

Yeah.

B (20:47)

You mentioned earlier about the costs are rising everywhere. Are you going to be able to go into the marketplace and nitpick someone for a lesser salary that will take on the same accountabilities that this individual is. It's not a guarantee. There's a lot of like moving factors that you can't confirm without having look in the market. So it's really difficult. I think the, the employer should delve into the, the person's availability, honesty in the conversation and actually whether they are delivering those deliverables.

A (21:22)

Yeah. I mean, how much they value them ultimately in this relationship.

B (21:25)

Exactly. Yeah.

A (21:26)

I mean, and the better the, the people know each other, the better you'll be able to judge that 100%. Being close to your team is really important.

B (21:34)

It's all about that trust piece. And I think the more those reviews are booked in periodically, you've almost got the chance over the course of the year to express if you're feeling a little low or the reasons in why you feel you're taking on more than maybe you should be. And then it doesn't become as much of a surprise when that person does ask for a pay rise.

A (21:55)

No, I mean an employer might say, well, yeah, we're all under a lot of pressure right now, clearly. And you know, I feel that too, Connor. Thanks for mentioning it.

B (22:04)

Yeah. But it also depends on how much you like the business, how much you like the people you work with.

A (22:08)

Yeah, sure.

B (22:09)

And can you see yourself on that journey with that business for a long time? If that, if the answer to that question is yes, then you'll stick at it and maybe the pay rise will come.

A (22:19)

Yeah. I don't think people should be crestfallen if they get a no.

B (22:22)

No, of course, no, no, no, no.

A (22:23)

Because I mean, I've been on both sides of these conversations and I've said no to people in the past, but I have often thought, well, if you do X, Y and Z or grow in this way, then yeah, sure, let's have another conversation. So I think if, if, if it's a no from a applicant's perspective or candidate's perspective, then they ought to be asking, well, what do I do next to make it a yes?

B (22:46)

Of course, if it's, if it's a hard no, then the employer must recognize that they're sort of opening the door for that person to look elsewhere.

A (22:53)

Well, that might be a message to the person that they're not really in the plans. Yeah.

B (22:58)

In which case you would, you would automatically start looking for another job.

A (23:02)

Right.

B (23:02)

So it is a two way street. There's no, there's no doubt.

A (23:06)

Yeah. It's a relationship based, like good relationship should be on trust.

B (23:10)

100. Yeah.

A (23:11)

Good. Any Last advice for anybody either considering a pay rise or asking for one.

B (23:17)

I think ultimately it's confidence. Like you need to go in. I would never ask for a pay rise if I wasn't confident in my ability and what I've been doing in the role that I'm paid to do. Because ultimately if you're, if you're not confident, you're not going to convince someone else of, of your worth.

A (23:35)

No. And confidence has got to be based on reality 100 and your actual contribution and value.

B (23:42)

Because if you're not confident and, but you are entitled, it can come across as arrogant, which is not what you want. You want to be, you want to come across as. It's a partnership. We're together, we're trying to move in this direction. And from my perspective, this is what needs to happen in order to make that.

A (23:58)

Yeah, I think. Let's think about that word confidence. Where does it come from in terms of, you know, you're doing a good job and you know what you're worth because you've looked around and you can see what others in the similar space are getting. And also that you know that you're contributing a lot more than you're taking out.

B (24:14)

It shows that you're resourceful as well. Like you're using the, the data that's available to you to the best of

A (24:19)

your ability, but you're confident for a good reason that you're well informed and you're doing a good job. If you, if your starting point is there, you're quite likely to be successful in the conversation. If not immediately, then probably in.

B (24:31)

Over the course of time. Yeah.

A (24:32)

Yeah.

B (24:33)

As long as that, those, those metrics are in place that we know that. Okay. It might not happen now, but in three months. Can we talk about it? If I meet xyz?

A (24:40)

Yeah.

B (24:41)

If I, if I do the following, am I more likely to get a yes? And I think those, those conversations are the fallback. If, if it is an immediate no, you know what happens now, always follow up and make sure there's another question

A (24:55)

and keep a record of these conversations and keep a record of the expectations that, and, and suggestions that have been made so you can deliver against them 100%. Very good. Well, thanks, Connor, for coming in to talk to me about how to get a pay rise. I feel better informed than I did before and I hope our listeners do too. I want to ask just a couple of questions I ask at the end. You know, we at Read Love Mondays as you know. So what is it that gets you up On a Monday morning.

B (25:25)

Colin, that is a good question. I think like I'm, I'm a, from a football background so we always spoke in the changing room about those 1% and, and the sort of marginal, marginal gains of sort of getting better every day and compounding and I think, I always think about having a better week than we did last week and how can we sort of best prepare going into the, the week ahead and if, if we do that week on week then we're doing something right. So I think ultimately it is that just try and have a better week than we did before and in the, over the course of time you'll be in a good place.

A (26:00)

Yeah. If every week's better than the one before, you certainly will be. Thanks, that's a very interesting thought. And my last question, which is from my book why you 101 interview questions you'll never fear again, Connor, is where do you see yourself in five years time?

B (26:15)

I would like to be in a position where I'm looking after construction in general for business but I just want to keep placing people in the construction world. I've been doing it for coming up to 11 years now, really enjoy it and just adding, adding value in the marketplace and sort of almost putting Reid in the center of that construction world because obviously we're very well known in other specialisms that we're definitely making strides to be a known go to for recruitment in the construction space.

A (26:51)

Well, very good. I wish you absolute success with that. A million million houses need to be built so I'd like to be very much in the middle of that. Thank you very much for coming in and talking to me.

B (26:59)

Thanks for having me.

A (27:00)

That was very interesting and instructive. Thank you Connor for joining me on All About Business Shorts. I'm your host James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you want to go deeper on topics like how to have career conversations that actually move the needle, I've written about them in my books why you, Life's work and the 7 seconds CV. You'll find links and resources in the show notes. Thank you for listening and see you next time.