77. What it’s really like running a funeral directors business | Damian Melville

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

James Reed: All About Business – Episode 77
"What it’s really like running a funeral directors business" with Damian Melville
Date: May 4, 2026
Host: James Reed CBE
Guest: Damian Melville (Founder & Managing Director, Melville and Daughters Funeral Directors)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, James Reed sits down with Damian Melville to explore the realities of running an independent funeral directors business in North London. The wide-ranging conversation delves into how Damian entered the industry, the unique challenges faced by funeral directors (including during the COVID-19 pandemic), business growth constraints, cultural nuances, and the personal and emotional dimensions of dealing with death. Damian, whose business began with a focus on the Afro-Caribbean community, shares candid insights into compassionate leadership, adapting to changing trends, and sustaining a family business.

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Main Discussion Points

1. Damian’s Path Into Funeral Directing

• Unexpected Journey: Damian didn’t inherit a family business and ended up in the funeral sector by chance after university and various jobs.

  “I fell into it by accident… when I was at uni doing business studies, I still wasn't sure what I wanted to do… the government promised us jobs… but that didn’t happen.” (02:01, Damian Melville)

• Early Career: Started in logistics for a tiling business, then moved to logistics at a funeral director specializing in repatriations.
• Progression: Eventually took on more sensitive duties—caring for the deceased and supporting families.
• Setting Up: Qualified via National Association of Funeral Directors while working, took two years via evening study, then decided to open his own firm in 2010 with a specific focus on the local Afro-Caribbean community (06:01-07:52).

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2. Building and Running the Business

• Scope & Scale:

  • Organizes around 220–240 funerals a year, which is operational capacity for the current team (08:00).
  • Personally conducts each funeral to ensure standards (08:18).
  • Staff of 8, all carefully selected for reliability and empathy (09:45, 10:24).

• Team Selection:

  • “It must be quite difficult… you have to find absolutely the right people.” (09:46, James Reed)
  • Reliability, personality, and willingness to support others are paramount; industry faces skill shortages due to high standards (09:53-11:14).

• Marketing and Reputation:

  • Success is almost entirely word-of-mouth, developed through direct community engagement, trust, and consistent high standards (13:15-14:33).
  • “Every funeral that we do is an advert for the potential next funeral...” (14:34, Damian Melville)

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3. Cultural Sensitivity and Service Personalization

• Afro-Caribbean Traditions:

  • Early focus enabled Damian to differentiate services, such as white horses, jazz bands, and celebration-of-life emphasis (18:24-21:49).
  • Adaptability: “Anything you can think of which is respectful and dignified, we'll provide it.” (19:11, Damian Melville)
  • Symbolism: “The symbolism behind the white is you’re going to heaven… angelic.” (21:49)

• Uniqueness of Each Funeral:

  • “A funeral, it's… you're only gonna have one. So everything has to be perfect.” (16:33, Damian Melville)
  • Attention to detail, timing, and presentation stressed to staff daily.

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4. COVID-19 Pandemic Impacts

• Emotional & Operational Strain:

  • Surge in deaths, unceasing calls, and severe restrictions—sometimes only six mourners allowed, leading to heartbreaking scenarios (23:27-25:41).
  • Funeral directors tasked with enforcing government rules families found devastating.
  • “That's the only time… I considered maybe I needed to stop doing what I'm doing. Just because it was so intense.” (23:31)
  • Psychological impact still felt by families today—the grieving process was disrupted and, for some, incomplete (27:57-31:49).
  • “A funeral is not so much for the person who’s passed away; it’s for those left behind.” (26:37)

• Rise of Direct Funerals:

  • Shift toward no-frills, “direct” cremations marketed as cheaper, but seen as “soulless” and less meaningful.
  • Pandemic accelerated the acceptance and market share of such options (28:07-29:54).

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5. Day-to-Day Operations and Challenges

• Daily Routine:

  • Damian starts work as early as 4:30 am on funeral days to check logistics, plan routes, and finalize details (45:00-46:16).
  • Preparation, planning, and troubleshooting are crucial—Google is a daily tool for checking routes and avoiding surprises.
  • Orders a wide range of coffins and caskets (up to 26 varieties plus 28 US-style caskets). Some individual caskets can cost up to £48,000 (47:09-49:02).
  • Ongoing admin, family interactions, and “putting out fires” make for varied, pressure-filled days. “On any one day we’ve probably got 25-30 funerals on the go.” (49:43)

• Property & Logistics:

  • All operations—garage, mortuary, office, and chapel of rest—recently consolidated in a 2,000 sq ft location.
  • London’s property market complicates finding suitable sites; fleet is partly housed on business purpose resident bays (41:45).

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6. Business Pressures and Growth Constraints

• Key Cost Challenges:

  • Business rates, fuel, national insurance, insurance—all escalating post-pandemic (34:43-36:57).
  • Costly to grow: “If National Insurance hadn't gone up, I'd be employing two or three more people.” (36:24-37:09)
  • Catch-22: Need higher turnover to justify hiring, but can’t handle more funerals without more staff.

• Policy Critique:

  • Government policy, lack of business experience in policy-makers, and insufficient consultation with small businesses cited as barriers (38:06-40:49).

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7. Work-Life Balance and Family Dynamics

• Family-Run Team:
  • Damian’s wife and two daughters are actively involved (54:25-58:48).
  • Lesson learned: don't discuss work at home after a set time for the sake of family relationships and personal well-being (56:17).
  • Flexibility helps daughters pursue other ambitions alongside business (58:03-58:41).
  • “You need to know when to switch off because you will burn yourself out.” (57:15, Damian Melville)

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8. Changing Attitudes to Death and Funerals

• Personal Perspective:

  • Damian speaks openly about how constant exposure to death reinforces “life is too short” philosophy (50:57-52:46).
  • Child and baby funerals are “heartbreaking” and most difficult to handle emotionally (53:03-54:12).
  • “Life literally is too short. You have to live every day as if it's your last.” (51:47)

• New Trends and Requests:

  • Novel memorials like turning ashes into diamonds or glass jewelry, woodland burials.
  • Burial space scarcity in London—gravestones now sold on leases, with possible exhumations/reuse after 30–50 years. (63:10-65:01)
  • “There’s very limited marking of the grave… no headstone, just a wooden ornament” (62:17, on woodland burial)

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9. Looking Ahead – Legacy and Vision

• Succession:
  • If daughters want, the business will be theirs; otherwise, exit by selling to a like-minded firm (66:01).
  • Aim in next 10 years: more staff, more capacity, but maintain standards.
  • Key motivator: “I love my work. I love to get back to it.” (68:09)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Every funeral that we do is an advert for the potential next funeral.” (14:34, Damian Melville)

• On lockdown funerals:
  “It was literally 15 minutes… there was no celebration of life, almost a means to an end. Someone had passed away and you need to lay them to rest…” (26:34, Damian Melville)

• On grief and pandemic restrictions:
  “It’s heartbreaking really… people weren’t allowed to grieve and we saw that impacted, and still impacts, people to this day.” (27:19, Damian Melville)

• Direct cremations:
  “It’s soulless. There’s no involvement of the family… at the end they give you back the ashes.” (28:30, Damian Melville)

• On recruitment:
  “Out of 20 people… maybe one might be suitable. And in the funeral business, we don’t really deal with ‘might’s. It’s either yes or no.” (10:21, Damian Melville)

• On perfection:
  “A funeral… you’re only gonna have one. So everything has to be perfect.” (16:32, Damian Melville)

• On life perspective:
  “You have to live every day as if it’s your last.” (52:35, Damian Melville)

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Important Timestamps

• Entering the industry & qualifications: 02:01–07:52
• Business growth and staffing: 08:00–11:14
• Community, word of mouth, and reputation: 13:15–14:33
• Afro-Caribbean culture and personalization: 18:24–21:49
• COVID-19 impact: 23:27–31:49
• ‘Direct’ funerals trend: 28:07–29:54
• Costs and barriers to growth: 34:43–37:09
• Work–life balance/family operations: 56:17–58:48
• Changing attitudes and new memorial options: 61:03–62:27

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Practical Insights and Advice

• Attention to Detail: Start early, plan meticulously, anticipate issues (17:15, 45:00).
• Staff Selection: Hire for character and empathy, not just skills.
• Community Integration: Trust and reputation are built slowly—visible community presence is essential for service businesses.
• Emotional Intelligence: Recognize the unique, unrepeatable significance of each funeral to those left behind.
• Family in Business: Set boundaries on discussion of work at home; prioritize downtime for mental health.
• Adapt to Trends—but Mind the Core Purpose: Be aware of evolving consumer preferences (e.g., direct cremation, alternative memorials), but ground the business in community values and emotional needs.
• Navigating Costs: Rising employment and operational costs constrain small business growth and limit new hires.
• Legacy Planning: Prepare for succession, whether through the family or a sale, with a view to preserving the business’s values and reputation.

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Closing Reflection

Damian’s story is a testament to the necessity of compassion, precision, and adaptability in funeral service—and in small business more broadly. His journey from accidental funeral director to respected community leader and family business owner highlights both the intense challenges and deep fulfillment to be found in serving families at their most vulnerable.

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Further Reading / Links

• Melville and Daughters Funeral Directors – Website
• Reed Group – About

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. Few professions require quite the same combination of compassion, resilience and responsibility as that of a funeral director. Today on All About Business, I'm joined by Damian Melville, whose work involves supporting families through some of the most difficult moments of their lives. In this episode, we discuss how someone enters the funeral profession, what it means to work closely with death, and the extraordinary challenges faced by funeral businesses during the COVID 19 pandemic. Well, today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to welcome Damien Melville. Damien is the founder and managing director of Melville and Daughters Funeral Directors.

[B]

That's correct, yeah.

[A]

And you're based in Tottenham, North London. Your business, Damien, was established in 2010 and you initially identified the Afro Caribbean market as your focus, but you've widened out from there since you began.

[B]

Yeah, essentially I was. I was trying to find a niche within a business that. An industry rather, that I really enjoyed being in. And I obviously been part of the Afro Caribbean community and culture. I. I saw an opportunity to provide a service for people that are like me.

[A]

So can I just wind back a moment before that? Because I want to understand, Damien. I mean, how did you become a funeral director? How did you get into this? Because you didn't inherit a family business.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no, no.

[A]

How did you. How did you start out?

[B]

I fell into it by accident, by. Just by chance. Because obviously when. When I was at uni doing business studies, I still wasn't sure what I wanted to do, so I thought, let me finish the degree. And then, you know, the government promised us jobs at the end of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Go to. Go to uni. Get a degree. As soon as you come out, you know, it would be Wonderland and there'll be jobs and opportunities waiting for you. But that didn't happen. That was.

[A]

It didn't happen. Okay.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

So what did happen.

[B]

What happened was is that I. I had our first child and we needed to provide for her, so I just basically did whatever I could. And that involved me driving a lorry for a couple of years on delivering to a local business that was. It wasn't too far away from me, but it was. It was near enough I asked them if there's any opportunities that if they came up, would they consider me because I was reliable and so on and so forth. They said, yeah, of course. So an opportunity came up, they gave it to me. I worked there for two, two or three years organizing rotors for the staff. Drivers, tilers, laborers.

[A]

So this was a tiling business?

[B]

Yeah, it was a tiling business. So they. It was a retail outlet. They had three outlets which they sold tiles from. And they also provided the fitting service. So it was a lot of juggling people, A to B, and timings and that type of thing. So I did that for a couple of years, which was. It was a learning curve because it was a small family business. So, you know, it was good for me to experience the pressures of that. But it was too much of a chore. Driving to work hour and a half, sometimes two hours. Sometimes two and a half hours each day. Yeah, each way. Yeah.

[A]

Because of the two, four, five hours in the car. Just. Yeah, which was.

[B]

Which was a lot. So I started to look around because of the fatigue that was bearing down on me, and a job came up in a funeral director's, which is not too far from my house. And the job description was basically arranging the staff, making sure the limousines and hearses, everyone were where they needed to be, when they needed to be.

[A]

So you were in sort of logistics to start with.

[B]

Yeah, it was logistics really. Right before they, you know, put me in the kind of more sensitive areas.

[A]

Okay, so you started at this funeral direct. Where was this located?

[B]

This was in Hertfordshire.

[A]

Hertfordshire.

[B]

And they. They specialized in repatriations. So if someone passes away in this country, we would repatriate them back to their home country abroad. But they also did day to day funerals as well.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I got an experience of the. The repatriation work as well as the day to day funeral.

[A]

So you. So you were repatriating people to their countries of origin for burial or cremation, and then you started doing, as you put it, the more sensitive side of the work.

[B]

Yeah, so.

[A]

So what did that entail?

[B]

It involved care of the deceased, really. So dressing people, getting them ready for families to view them and pay their last respects. Whereas before they kind of just kept me in a little office.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Phone.

[A]

Quite particular is that.

[B]

I mean. Yeah, it is. Because. How can I put it? Our clients are trusting you with their most precious, their precious loved one. So they have to be able to know that who is handling them is handling with care and dignity and respect. So they can't just, you can't just have anyone, you know, coming in off the street and then, you know, you're let loose with someone's loved one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it took them a little while, but I understand why because you know, they needed to know that they trusted me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I got involved in that part of it and I really enjoyed every aspect of, of the work that we were doing and I just felt that there were things not to say that they were doing wrong but that they could do better.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So that's when I decided that I was going to do my qualifications.

[A]

So what are the qualifications?

[B]

So there's, there's a number of qualifications. So there's the national association of Funeral Directors, funeral service certification and then there's also the same but for funeral directors as well.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that it's kind of one on one tutorials. It's just like being back at uni.

[A]

Right. How long does that take though to qualify?

[B]

It depends on how much you do. It's almost like opening university. So the more time you put into it, the quicker you can do it. But because I was working at the same time and it was in the evenings, it took me about two years I think in the evenings after work.

[A]

So while you were employed in Hertfordshire you were sort of thinking about starting your own?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I, I was just. Because I think sometimes you have the, if you have it in you, you always want to work for yourself. Because the way I say it is that there are people that want to work for someone and there are other people that want to work for themselves. And I think throughout my life I've always been someone who wanted to work for themselves. I can't really put it any more than that really. I mean I'm always happy to, to have worked in the places I worked in because I've learned a lot. But my over ambition was always to have my own business.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's extremely challenging and I don't think

[A]

having your own business.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yes, it's, it's non stop and especially in the funeral business. It's, it's 24 7, 365 which can impact on, you know.

[A]

So could you tell me what the business is like now? So, so you, you founded the business in 2010?

[B]

2010, yeah.

[A]

So you've been doing this 16 years now?

[B]

Yeah, 16 years this month.

[A]

How, how busy are you? How many funerals do you organize?

[B]

We on average every year it's about between 220 and 240 and that's our capacity. In order for us to grow even more, I would need to employ another funeral director.

[A]

Right.

[B]

To be able to.

[A]

So you do all of that yourself?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got staff that work and assist me in doing the day to day run ins, but I at the moment conduct every single funeral that, that we put out, which is difficult because time off, don't really get time off unless it's Easter or Christmas. But I'm. I'm caught in a bit of a catch 21 because especially at the moment with. For me to expand, the business needs to expand at the same time in terms of our turnover and the work coming in to justify paying another funeral director. But I can't get to that until the work comes in.

[A]

Yes, I see what you mean. So it's a, it's a big step up in terms of expanding. Yeah, yeah, but it's a chicken and egg sort of.

[B]

Exactly that.

[A]

I, I can see that. So. So you do all of the. So you're sort of hands on, so to speak. You're doing this yourself?

[B]

Yeah, in terms of the, the day to day funeral. I mean, I will go out and conduct a funeral, but my staff will do all of the collections of people when they pass away, whether it's at home or in hospital. They'll prepare the coffins, they'll dress the deceased. So they do. In the, in the beginning I did all of that, but as, as time has gone on and I've employed staff, they kind of do all of that for me now.

[A]

Right, so how many people do you have on your team?

[B]

Eight in total.

[A]

So it must be. I mean, hiring people for this must be. It must be quite difficult. I mean, you have to be very. You have to find absolutely the right people.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's really, really difficult and the industry as a whole is suffering a skills shortage just because. Because we're so particular about the staff that we employ, it makes it more difficult. So out of 20 people that might apply for a job, maybe one might be suitable. And in the funeral business, we don't really deal with mites. It's either yes or no.

[A]

And what do you look for? What, what makes someone suitable?

[B]

It's their reliability, their personality, their appearance I can work on. But it's just that, right, that. That willingness to want to help people in, in their darkest time. And you can tell, I mean, I see myself as quite a good judge of character and I can tell straight away. I mean, the staff that work for us now, they are all from that mold. So, and when I first met all of them, they, they exuded that to me. So it was, it was quite straightforward. But been through lots of interviews and what have you where the people weren't, you know, straight away they, they see the, the salary, so to speak, and the hours and if, oh, you are going to apply for that job rather than thinking, have I got the skills to execute that job to the best of my ability.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you've got to be on time. There's no way you can't. And, and personality. What, what, what are you looking for?

[B]

Personality. When the cameras are rolling, excuse the pun, they need to be game face, serious, empathetic. Outside of that, then they just have to have a bit of. Because, because the business that we do is such a sad and somber time. You have to be able to lift yourself up when you're not on the day of the funeral. So you can't be an introvert and you know, because it wouldn't be good for you. No, it wouldn't be good.

[A]

It wouldn't take you down. You'd stay in that space.

[B]

Yeah. And then you, because we're such a, a small team, it brings everyone else down as well.

[A]

That's interesting. So you're looking for people who are actually quite outgoing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But they have to be very quiet and somber when they're doing their job.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And thankfully, thankfully, we've got the right balance of that, the style.

[A]

That's interesting because I heard about your business through customers of yours who spoke very highly of you, who said that you'd organize funerals for their loved ones.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you're obviously very good at what you do was. I mean, do people typically choose their funeral director before they die or is it people coming to you from their families afterwards? How do you sort of win your business, so to speak?

[B]

So essentially when I first started, you have to integrate yourself within the community before they will give you that trust. So where we're not the type of business that you open today, and then everyone's flooded In. So when I first opened, I went to visit all of the churches, ministers and people that are on the circumference of our business. And it took a little while, but because in the area that I opened my business, there wasn't really anyone who looks like me doing our business. So that kind of gave me a. A bit of a foot in the door.

[A]

Well, in terms of being from your community.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, yeah. But they still need to know that you can do the task that has been given to you professionally and comprehensively. So it just took time and trust and what have you. And it. I kind of. I think the first reno I did was probably four months after we opened, which was. Was tough, really. But then from then, it kind of. It's just what our. Our business is solely on word of mouth.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which takes.

[A]

Solely word of mouth.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So people have had a good experience.

[B]

Yeah. So what we've. What we've found is that every time you. Every funeral that we do is an advert for the potential next funeral that you're going to do.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which is why I'm so strict with my staff. So, you know, don't let your standards slip because there's always someone watching. And over time. It's taken us a long time, I mean, 16 years, but now everyone recommends us. I'm not sure if they're supposed to, but, you know, why not?

[A]

I mean, I think private.

[B]

Private clients, you know, families and what have you, they do. But there are professionals that also, I think, because they've had an experience of us conducting a funeral within their church or their place of worship. They know that they can rely on us and depend on us to do what we need to do. So if a family asks them, they can feel confident that the name that they're giving them will do what the family want.

[A]

So my father sadly died last year, late last year, and so we were sort of quite involved organizing the funeral. And it had a woman funeral director, which was typical of dad. They called Zoe Millington, the caller out from Solan Sons over North Knoxwoodshire, and they were brilliant, actually. They couldn't have been sort of more sympathetic and they did a really good job. And. But I was thinking it. There's so much presentation involved and every detail has to be right. And it was. It was, I thought, really impressive how they sort of went about their work in such a dignified way. And that takes quite a lot of training, doesn't it? Because I get a whole team working in unison in that way. And sort of. So that it was all run smoothly. Because you don't want that to go wrong.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

Such an important moment for a family.

[B]

Exactly. And it's one of the few things that you can't do again. So you can get married once or twice or three times.

[A]

I thought about that. Yeah. I mean, you're not meant to, but.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, you're not meant to.

[A]

You can do it again.

[B]

You can do it again. But a funeral, it's. It's.

[A]

You're only gonna have one.

[B]

Yeah, you're gonna have one. So everything has to be perfect, you know, so it. It.

[A]

So this is what you tell your team.

[B]

Yeah. Every. Every day. They probably get sick of hearing it, but.

[A]

Well, it's a good message, you know, it has to be perfect.

[B]

Yeah, it has to be perfect. There's. There's. There's no room for. For complacency because in life things are. Things are going to happen, but it's how you deal with them. You know, if there's a massive accident on. On, on the motorway or on your route, there's nothing you can do about it, but you can still do the best that you can to still arrive at where you need to be, when you need to be.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So, you know, so do you have

[A]

sort of routines where you set off a lot earlier than always.

[B]

Always.

[A]

Because what are your sort of maxims around that.

[B]

I would prefer to be parked around the corner from the family house and sit there for half an hour rather than us chasing through the streets, which, you know, I. I've seen before, which really upset me because I just thought, all right, the family aren't with you, but you've still got the deceased with you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So the last. You should be going the same speed from the minute you leave the garage until you get back. So I'd prefer to be sat there just relaxed, waiting and then, you know, if I say I'm going to be there at 10 o', clock, 9:59, I'm knocking at the door.

[A]

But you're typically there at 9:30.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Always.

[A]

Right. So you always try and.

[B]

Yeah, just. Because if, if anything happens, you can deal with it. You know, if there's a. An accident or the road shut, which has happened a couple of times and you have to go all the way around. Especially with the. The way the councils and local authorities are blocking every other road off.

[A]

Yes. It's not easy in London at the moment. Must be difficult.

[B]

It's. It's. Navigating around London is just as hard as doing my day to day work.

[A]

So I understand, I mean, you started off with your community, Afro Caribbean community. And did you give, did you give things a different emphasis because of that? I, I was, I was thinking about the celebration of life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that something that you brought?

[B]

It wasn't really a different emphasis. I kind of homed in on things that I knew that our community wanted. So for instance, white horses and white cars. Whereas other funeral doses, probably different now, but back then, 16 years ago, because I know you can't have white horses or you can't have white cars, whereas at our place of business, as long as it's respectful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then you, you can have it. So jazz bands, you know.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Anything you can think of which is respectful and dignified will provide it.

[A]

So for. So you mentioned white horses, white cars, jazz bands, silver cars.

[B]

Yeah, we tend to do dubs as well. Orders of service booklets, pens, little, you know, all of the keepsakes that people want. Whereas before, people weren't offering them ribbons.

[A]

So was before, was it just black horses? Is that what.

[B]

Yeah, just black horses. And then I, I found a carriage master who had a. He had a carriage that he was thinking about painting white. And I said to him, if you paint it white, I'll probably be able to give you quite a lot of work. So he painted it white because he had white horses from doing weddings. So it was just. He didn't have a white carriage. So he, in the end he painted. It took him about six months. I don't know what took him so long. But, but as soon as he, he.

[A]

So you use the same. You call them carriage masters. Yeah, they keep the course, they keep the horses.

[B]

Horses and, and the carriages as well.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And now we, we do equal the amount. So as many black horse drawn funerals. We do as many white horse drawn funerals.

[A]

Do you ever have black and white one?

[B]

It's funny you say that. There was a, a family that came to see us, it must be about eight years ago, and she said were interracial couple. So the lady was white and the gentleman was black and she said, can I have a black horse and a white horse? Oh. And I said, well,

[A]

does that mean two different carriage masters?

[B]

Because our carriage master's got black and white horses.

[A]

All right. Did this trouble you then was.

[B]

I had to think about it just because I thought it was a bit of an odd request that I asked her about three times because I thought maybe she was winding me up. But she's actually being honest. So it's a two tone. I said, well, if that's what you want and you're happy with it, then, you know, we'll give it to you. And we did it. And she was over the moon. She had a black carriage, so I kind of got 75% on her. But because I prefer the black because I just think they just look. They look regal.

[A]

I suppose black is what you associate.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And just looking at them next to each other, the. The blacks look more fitting towards the task that they're assigned to. I think white is. Is more for more joyous occasions, but.

[A]

Right.

[B]

For our community, as funeral is a celebration of life. So.

[A]

So that's the reason they wanted the white. Yeah, so that's the. That's the origins of that. Yeah, I didn't know that. So. So it's more of a focus on the celebration of the life.

[B]

Yeah, Celebration of life. And the. The sim symbolism behind the white is you. You're going to heaven. So, you know, when you go and meet God, then you will. You wear white. Almost angelic, so to speak. Right.

[A]

So interesting.

[B]

Yeah. Very, very many Caribbean. Afro Caribbean funerals now.

[A]

I've seen magnificent horses, white ones around where I live with white horses. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Often flags.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Magnuson. I wasn't stopped and take pictures. Glad I love horses.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So, yeah. Black and white horses. So is that. Do you typically have two horses or four?

[B]

They have a choice. They can have two. To be fair. They can have anything up to six.

[A]

It's just six as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Six is driving six horses through Tottenham. That. I mean, that's quite a task for somebody.

[B]

Yeah. The most I've done is. Is 4. Because aesthetically, I mean, I have had a couple of families ask me and I said it. It kind of takes away from the person who's in the carriage because as you're going down the street, you see two horses, then you see the four, then you see six, and then you're. You're kind of. You're real. It's too overwhelming and it takes away from what you're. You know, you're trying to. For one of a better phrase, showcase your loved one to the community. But yet you've got six. Six horses too many. It's. It's overkill.

[A]

Yeah. So two or four would be your recommendation.

[B]

Yeah, four. Yeah.

[A]

So in the period you've been organizing funerals, have they changed a lot? Have people's tastes and preferences change or is there a real consistency around this?

[B]

Covid,

[A]

you know what happened with COVID That must have been very hard.

[B]

It's the hardest time of my life. That is the only time that I think that I considered that maybe I needed to stop doing what I'm doing. Just because it was so intense. Yeah, it was, it was because what

[A]

was making it more intense? They couldn't have people at the funerals

[B]

or it was just intense just because the phone literally didn't stop ringing. And every single phone call was someone that had passed away, which is extremely rare. And it was, it was depressing because you knew, you knew people were cooped up at home and you could feel their frustrations. Especially at the beginning where the government guidelines were. You can only have six people at the funeral. Well, I had a couple of cases where the deceased had 10 children. So who makes that, who makes that call? And the government didn't really help us. They said, well, those are the rules and you enforce them. And the police were very much of the same ilk where you deal with it. And we're like, well, we didn't implement these rules, but yet you're asking us to enforce them. Which was stressful because we're the ones that are giving the families the bad news. So they're just kind of not attacking us, but they're taking their, they're venting their frustration out on us and we're like, well, it's not really our fault, but you know, what can you do? And it was just, it was just.

[A]

I can see how difficult that. Because it's such an emotional, difficult time for families and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Told that you can't have all your children at. So yeah, it's just father's or mother's funeral.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. You know, it's really tough. And it, it was tough. Just the volumes for the first three months after we got locked down, it was just literally non stop. I was working seven days a week and psychologically it was tough. Not only dealing with the number of people that passed away, but driving to work and not seeing anyone else on the road had a. Had a real impact on me. Just because I, you know, when you just feel, think to yourself, has the world ended and I didn't get the memo? And that's what kept going through my mind every day that I drove to work and came home. And when we eventually opened up again and what have you, it still haunted me just because it was just, it was just airy.

[A]

Yeah. I suppose doing what you were doing, that was you particularly.

[B]

Yeah. And aware of that. Yeah. And there was no.

[A]

So you were a key Worker, as they were called.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you were allowed out and about.

[B]

Yeah. Which, you know, we, we were grateful for, but it was just a really, really tough time. And there was no celebration of life. It was just a case of almost a means to an end. Someone had passed away and you need to lay them to rest. So that was quite depressing for us because we're used to, you know, you get some funerals that, you know, everyone's dressed in black and they're somber, what have you. But to lift you up again towards the end of the week, you might have one which is a little bit more uplifting. So dealing with that psychologically was difficult as well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Really.

[A]

So it was, it became more of a sort of processing the disease.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was, it was task based rather than a celebration.

[B]

Yeah. We're doing like four or five funerals a day and it was, it was literally 15 minutes. So, you know, the hearse would pull up to the cemetery, we'd lay the person to rest, and then we come back, collect another person, do the same. And there was no, I mean, a funeral is not so much for the person who's passed away, it's for the people that are left behind and them not having that. That process of being able to grieve properly because it's all done and finished in 15 minutes, is, is heartbreaking really. And we, we saw that that impacted and still impacts people to this day, you know, five, six years on, because they weren't allowed to grieve.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So, yeah, things changed then, I think for the worst, because as we were doing what we called a direct funeral, the direct funeral model kind of pushed forward. So you, you have people advertising on TV now saying, you know, we'll take care of everything. And it's. There's no involvement of the family in that process. And because of what happened in Covid, that has accelerated their growth. Because a lot of people thought, well, you know, back in Covid we couldn't do anything, so why should we do anything now?

[A]

Right.

[B]

So we're. We're seeing that that isn't. That market has increased and it's kind of taken away from the traditional funeral and that.

[A]

You call that the direct.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What does that mean?

[B]

That sort of literally. So someone will pass away. You phone a call center. Yeah. Give them all of the documentation. They'll handle collecting the deceased, cremating them or burying them. And then at the end of the process, they give you back the ashes, which is soulless.

[A]

So there's no gathering, no one Remember the person.

[B]

None whatsoever.

[A]

It literally is soulless. Yeah, but I suppose it's cheap. Is it the economics of that.

[B]

They market it as if it is cheap. But I could still do a, so to speak, direct funeral with the family participating. They just wouldn't be able to go to church and then go on to the cemetery of the crematorium. We could do it directly at the cemetery or directly at the crematorium for the same price. Right. But because these companies have got more marketing power, they've kind of hypnotized the population into thinking that they are doing them a greater service at a greater

[A]

price because they're spending money on television.

[B]

Yeah. And that's what I say to families whenever they call me. I say, if you knew how much it costs to advertise on television, you know that that company is not doing you any favors because it has to.

[A]

I know how much it costs to advertise on television because we do that. And it's expensive.

[B]

It's expensive.

[A]

I don't know what funerals cost. What would you be talking about?

[B]

What's the sort of range on average these days? Between three and a half thousand to five thousand.

[A]

Right.

[B]

On average.

[A]

Whereas if you wanted horses and everything,

[B]

horses add an extra 13, 1400 pounds.

[A]

So 3 and a half to 5000 on average, but maybe up to 6 and a half if you want a horse.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But these direct cremation companies will say that they'll do it for, I don't know, twelve hundred pounds.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which

[A]

I find that sort of quite,

[B]

as you say, it's just soulless.

[A]

I can't imagine doing that from no one of my loved ones. And that you send them off and they come back as ashes.

[B]

Yeah. And you haven't, you haven't had.

[A]

But that's a. That's a popular alternative now. And you think, and you say that's because of the. What happened in the pandemic.

[B]

100.

[A]

Introduce that.

[B]

100.

[A]

But what you said to me earlier was that you felt that people were still feeling the consequences of that in a negative way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Years later, because they hadn't been able to grieve properly.

[B]

Yeah. I spoke to a lady, it must be about three, four weeks ago, and she said, oh, you did my mum's funeral during the pandemic. I said, oh, do you remember me? And we were talking, talking, and she said, I'm still aggrieved by the fact that I wasn't able to give my mom what she. She deserved, you know, with. Because I think with her mom's funeral, it was, I think it was. We were up to 10 people and she was quite a popular lady. So there would have been at least a couple of hundred people there, church service and singing and so on and so forth, but it was. We picked them up from the house and we took them to the cemetery. So. And she still feels. Because I, I think because in the Afro Caribbean community we tend to speak about the final farewell quite a lot. So it's very important to us. So to be denied that opportunity when you know, outside of your control is something that you will take with you to your, to your end.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Really. You know, this lady, she was, she was so I could see it in her face, she wasn't just saying it. I could see the pain in her eyes that she was denied the opportunity to give her mom that, that send off.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So, you know, time, time. It is a healer, but it's not.

[A]

So do people often discuss what type of funerals they want to have long before they die together? What you sort of.

[B]

Yeah, there's always. I say elder ladies who I see when I'm out on a funeral say, oh yeah, you're going to do our funeral.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And they say I want this and I want that. And I'm just. And I say to them, you've got

[A]

to remember everyone's request.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Just worry about what you're. Worry about living, you know, just write it down. Yeah, write it down and forget about it. Don't keep thinking, you know, this is what I want for my future. Think about what you want to do with your grandchildren, you know, because that

[A]

sounds like good advice to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you'll take care of the rest of the. Yeah, just write down a few requests.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean there are people that do funeral plans. I think in the past few years it's kind of tailed off a little bit because there's a financial pressures that people are under.

[A]

Funeral plan where you put money aside.

[B]

Yeah, where you put money aside and you can write down your requests that you want for your funeral and then that's given to the funeral director, your next of kin, and then you've got one. So those three parties know what you want when that time comes. But we've seen that there's been a lot of funeral plans that have been canceled just because of.

[A]

Is that a service you offer the funeral plan or is it other people?

[B]

We, we facilitate them. So the government changed the, the regulations on it about three, four years ago because there was no regulation. So Every, every man and his dog was selling funeral plans and there was a company that went bustling and lost about 20 million pounds worth of people's money.

[A]

Oh, that's bad.

[B]

Yeah. And then the government steps in and said hold on a minute. And they looked at the industry along with our associations and said well this isn't regulated. So now it's regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority.

[A]

So yeah, there's a financial service, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they recognize that.

[A]

So you have to be financial, FCA regulated.

[B]

Yeah. And I, I could do it but I'm a funeral that I'm not a financial consultant. So for me to keep up with the training that's involved with that sector to be able to sell a funeral plan isn't, doesn't really, it's not really for me. Whereas the funeral planning companies that can sell the plans, they can nominate us as a funeral director.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So you know, they have to come to us in the end.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So, so, so I'm just thinking about the, running the business, your sort of key challenges. You know, we're post pandemic, thank goodness and society's gone back to more normal. Not completely, but ways of being. What are your principal challenges now?

[B]

I think the day to day running a business in the uk Business rates, fuel, national insurance. Those are the challenges that, I mean we've, we've got the talking costs here. Yeah, costs is just, they're, I mean

[A]

so you mentioned business rates, fuel and national insurance.

[B]

The three principal and insurance as well.

[A]

Insurance too.

[B]

Yeah, they are every year they go up regardless of what happens. I, I just renewed our fleet insurance and that's gone out and I said to him but I haven't claimed for like seven years. Yes, yeah but the industry, you know, it's the usual insurance spiel, spiel of

[A]

you know, prices only seem to go

[B]

up, they never ever come down. I can't remember the last time anything ever came down. It's ridiculous. So that, that's a, that's a pressure which then all of those pressures will impact our, our families because it, it will mean that we need to put our prices up and I hate putting our prices up because I, I, I'm I'm of the ilk that we provide a certain service at a certain price and I've been able to kind of weather, weather that storm in the last 16 years but now it's come to a point whereby I'm having to put it out even though I don't want to because I, I, we Financially have to, otherwise we won't survive, you know, and that, that, that sticks in my core, if I'm honest.

[A]

So National Insurance is of interest to me because that's the cost of employing people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so this is becoming more expensive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are you finding it harder to hire people or is it.

[B]

Yeah, just because it's the extra expense that comes with employing someone. So I, I would like to employ at least another two or three people, but the cost of that has, has gone up significantly whereby I wouldn't be able to sustain everyone else if I took those people on because the National Insurance is so much more. I think on average it cost me, I think at least another five or six hundred pounds a month off the top of my head, which is a lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For a small business.

[A]

So. So what you're saying, if I hear you correctly, Damien, is that you, if the National Insurance hadn't gone up as much, they had you in all like you'd be employing two or three more people.

[B]

Yeah, I would have definitely take on at least one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe two.

[A]

So if you replicate that up and down the land, that's a lot of people who would be working that. Maybe that's, that's exactly stopped working by these extra costs.

[B]

That's exactly it. And if I don't have that staff, then I can't grow the business to the, the level I want it to go and therefore then we, we pay less corporation tax. So.

[A]

Yeah, so it's a self defeating, self defeating tax.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because the business was growing, you'd have more tax to contribute in other ways.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And then the employees would be spending more money. So then that's more.

[A]

The government be spending less on welfare. That's sitting at home.

[B]

Yeah, that's exactly it. It's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's kind of, it's upsetting to me because I think it's the people that are making their decisions, never ask the people that are the feel the consequences of their decisions. They seem to know it all.

[A]

Yes, they seem to know it all.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just being, I'm just being perfectly honest because.

[A]

Yeah, I'm interested in what you've got to say because you're in the sharp end of all this.

[B]

Yeah. I mean you've got a government at the moment whereby none of the cabinet have ever run a business, but yet they're making decisions that are affecting business. So that is like me trying to tell a fisherman how to fish. It's just not going to work.

[A]

None of the Cabinet have ever run

[B]

a business, you say from, from my understanding, yeah.

[A]

I don't think any of them have ever started a business, run a business or had a senior job in a business.

[B]

No.

[A]

So. Yeah. So there should be more consultation with business.

[B]

Yeah. Because, I mean, they've been in waiting for so long, you'd think that they, they'd come well equipped, more than equipped to, to deal with the problems that have been created over the last 14 years, but they're not. It's almost as if the, the Conservatives threw them a hot potato and they, and they don't know, they don't know what to do because they've almost become a little bit.

[A]

Threw them a hot potato. What do you do with a hot potato? I don't know.

[B]

You just keep juggling it, don't you?

[A]

Keep juggling it, I suppose.

[B]

And it seems to me that they, they didn't really have a plan. It's almost as if they've been in the, in the background for so long, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting and never really thought that they were actually going to get into power. They got into power and it's like, oh, sugar, what do we do now? Just because, you know, I'm, I'm all for giving people the opportunity to grow into their role and take advantage of opportunities that, that they may come across, but how many U turns can one person make before you're just going around in the circle?

[A]

So you'd see, you'd like to see a lot more support for, for business.

[B]

Yeah, I would do. Because obviously it impacts me and it impacts the country. You know, it's small to medium sized businesses that, that power this, this country and this economy and it just seems as if at the moment we are just being punished everywhere, everywhere we turn. It's, it's definitely, it's not. This current time period is not the best time for an entrepreneur, Entrepreneur to flourish because there's too many, there's too many pitfalls.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I don't think I would have been able to do what I did 16 years ago today.

[A]

Even now, so.

[B]

Even now, so.

[A]

So you'd find it harder to get going now than you would have done.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely.

[A]

And 16 years ago was just after the financial crisis, so that wasn't an easy moment either.

[B]

No.

[A]

Saying this is harder than then.

[B]

Yeah, I, I would say so because everything, everything that is being pushed towards us is, is, it's kind of just, just keeping us down. That's what it just feels like. It's just like, just stay down there. Oh, and we're going to take this, we're going to take that. Whereas whenever there's a, the, there is a financial disaster, there's always an opportunity there and it's just whether or not you can ride the storms. Ride the storm, so to speak, and take advantage of that opportunity, which is what I, I was able to do because the shop that I, the premise that we got, it had been empty for like at least two years because no one would take it on. So they brought the rent down. Right. About three or four times.

[A]

So you were able to take that opportunity?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Get a premises. How big a premises do you need for this?

[B]

Well, fortunately we in London it's very difficult to, to find a funeral director friendly sized building. But I've got our garage in one place, our mortuary one place, our offices in one place and our chapels of rest. But I'm, I'm lucky.

[A]

So you mean it's all in one location?

[B]

It's all in one place, yeah, it's all in one location. And that.

[A]

That's a. As usual.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How big is that?

[B]

It is about, I'd say about 2,000 square ft.

[A]

Right. So a fair size.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so how many vehicles would you keep there?

[B]

I've got four that are kept there and then I've got another three that are on resident bays where we, we buy a business purpose.

[A]

So what are the key elements you need? You need a garage.

[B]

You need a garage. You need space for Mori and then space for chapel of Rest for people to come and pay their last respects. Right.

[A]

Really so that all needs to be well presented as well. So the property side of this is pretty difficult too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Especially you've been in the Same place since 2010.

[B]

Yeah. Fortunately we got the shop next to a shop one down from us because I needed to expand the office function.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So they're both, you know, if it wasn't for the hairdressers in between that they'd be next to each other. Right.

[A]

Come to a deal with the hairdressers?

[B]

No. Well the trouble. Yeah. I was thinking that the trouble with our parade of shops is that in between each premise there's a flat with a stairway.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

So even if I, I did have the hairdressers, I'd have to probably just bore through the, the staircase.

[A]

You might not be allowed to do that.

[B]

Yeah. It might be a bit difficult.

[A]

Might be a bit difficult. So Damien, I'm fascinated on the sort of day to day basis how you run the business, what, you know, what happens on a day to day basis in a funeral director. Okay, if I was a fly on the wall, what would I see?

[B]

On a day that we are going out on a funeral, I come in typically at least an hour and a half before the rest of the staff and I do my last minute checks for the funeral that we're about to go out on. The team, get the, the fleet ready and the deceased and then I make sure that all of the work that I need to do before I go out is done so that the office can do what they need to do. Then obviously we get on the funeral, go to the family address, go to the funeral venue and just conduct the funeral on a day that I'm in the office is very different to, I mean the, the number of phone calls we, we get from not just families but from people trying to sell us stuff. It's just, it's insane. So I find myself having to do a lot of those. I also have to deal with the, the day to day things of dealing with ordering coffins, all of the, the materials that we need to do our day to day troubleshooting. It's not as fascinating as, as you think me being in the office.

[A]

So you said that. I've got a couple of things I want to follow up on that have fascinated me that you said. The first is you get in an hour and a half before everyone else on the day of a funeral. So how early are we talking about here?

[B]

If the boys are coming in at six, I'm usually there by half four.

[A]

So you're at work half past four on the day of a fusion.

[B]

That means I'm usually up at half past three and then it only takes me that time in the morning, 20 minutes to get to work.

[A]

So this is a really. So you start work very early often.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what are you doing for the hour and a half before they come in at 6?

[B]

A lot of the time I'm making sure that no roadworks are popped up where I hadn't planned for the day before.

[A]

So you're looking at the route you've got to take?

[B]

The route that I've got to take and looking at any family requests that they may have if they want me to go a certain way or just particulars I'm just fine tuning, making sure that I'm fully equipped for the day that I'm going to encounter.

[A]

So this is real detail you're talking about?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So when you say no road words, but have you, do you Drive the route beforehand or check the route.

[B]

No. So personal.

[A]

How do you do that?

[B]

Google's my, my biggest friend at the moment, but it's not always accurate. So because I know our local vicinity, our local area, I, I, I know when the roadworks are going to pop up because they obviously sign in, what have you. And I just check and make sure, using Google, where traffic is building up because there's a timed function on it as well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which uses their algorithm to, you know, so I just, there's nothing worse than not being prepared. So I'd rather, even if there are no roadworks, at least I know that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I don't like surprises.

[A]

And then the other thing you said, you talked about ordering coffins. Where do you order them from and what are the sort of range of options?

[B]

So I built our range whereby There we have 26 different coffins and about 28 caskets, American caskets.

[A]

So there was, so what's the difference?

[B]

An American casket is they're all one size and they've got two lids. Typically you see in the movies, you just see half of the person. Right. Coffins is what we're more accustomed to in this country where it's, they're usually made out of wood and they're all. The lid is just one piece.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And traditionally, probably up to about 100 years ago, funeral directors would make them because they were furniture furnishers and they would make them themselves. Whereas the Americans, I don't know where they got this fascination with caskets from, but that's all they tend to, to use. So I order those.

[A]

They're all one size caskets.

[B]

All one size. Yeah. Coffins are made to measure. Right. So obviously, you know, I wouldn't go into a small coffin or, you know, make it to my size, but there's two or three companies that I order from just because I don't like to have all my eggs in one basket. So if one can't deliver, then I know I can get from another one.

[A]

Right. And what's the delivery time typically?

[B]

I can have one next day.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If I order, you know.

[A]

So where are these companies?

[B]

A lot of them are up in the Midlands and in, up, up in the North.

[A]

So they make, they're just making lots of caskets and coffins all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And other people, when, as, as, and

[B]

when they make them, I think at their business they make about five or six hundred coffins a day.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The one, the biggest supplier that I order from.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I can have them. I, I usually get our coffins in at least the week before the funeral so that if anything's wrong with it then I've got time to.

[A]

So what, so what's the top of a range coffin? What's the most expensive, sort of elaborate one that people might choose?

[B]

Okay, so a casket. I think there's one which is, it's called the Promethean and at the moment I think it's 48, 000 pounds.

[A]

Really?

[B]

And coffin I think probably about, I think the most would probably be about £4,000.

[A]

So the casket's much more expensive.

[B]

Yeah, much more. This one in particular, it's is, is stainless steel and it comes from America.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So you know, but that's going to

[A]

cause the crematorium of problems.

[B]

Well, it's a burial casket so. Yeah, yeah, it's a very cas.

[A]

Is that right? You got a stainless steel one?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's relative to the, the person who's ordering it. So you know, if you, if you can afford to buy a Fiesta then you're going to buy within your means and if you're a millionaire then you, you could buy one of those. It just depends on, you know.

[A]

So people were quite specific about that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And they'll tell you what they want.

[B]

Yeah, very interesting.

[A]

I never knew that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But I mean on a day to day I'm just troubleshooting.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I know it sounds boring but you know, when we, at any one time we've probably got 25, 30 funerals on the go at this at the same time. So that's a lot of firefighting that needs to be done. So because I have all of the answers, the team lean on me. So when I'm in they're, you know, I'm getting it. So sometimes I prefer to be out because then they can't ask to do the travel. Yeah.

[A]

So that's good advice for a lot of entrepreneurs.

[B]

Yeah. Stay out of the office.

[A]

If you get out of the office for the admin, find someone else.

[B]

Yeah, they find a way. Because if, if they can't get hold of me, they have to solve the problem.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. I've discovered that too. So I'm interested in your sort of, if you don't mind my asking, your sort of personal journey. I mean, because death is something that happens all the time. He said your phone keeps ringing. But it's something we in a way as sheltered from as people are going about our everyday lives, you know, and a lot of us haven't seen a Dead person. So has your relationship with death changed or evolved given your work? What, how's your understanding developed?

[B]

My, my understanding is that you literally. I, I know it's, it's a saying that's quite, said quite a lot, but life literally is too short. So you have to live every day as if it's your last. Because over the last 16 years I've seen people, even relatives of mine, where they're here today, gone tomorrow. And you know, tomorrow is not, it's not promised to anyone. And that's one thing that I, I think about every single day. And even more so these days. I mean, I'm laying to rest a lot of people that are in their 60s. And I'm in this paranoid spiral at the moment where I'm 48 this year. I'm thinking to myself, I've only got 12 years left.

[A]

62. So how do you think I feel?

[B]

I'm on borrowed time. Damn.

[A]

Hanging in there.

[B]

Hanging in there.

[A]

Yeah. But you're right.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's the interesting thing about turning 60. You could live another week or two or you could live another 30 years.

[B]

This is exactly it. Which is why I always say to people, you know, you have to live every day as if it's your last. I mean, a friend of our family last, no, week, week before last, was out, had a heart attack and then went into a coma and then passed away within three days. Right. And I'd seen him a couple of weeks before and you just think, wow,

[A]

so, so that's your key sort of thought actually from what you've seen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And your day to day work life is short.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Make the most of it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's the long and short of it. You know, don't put off doing today, don't put off doing something tomorrow when you could do it today.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Really? Because tomorrow you don't know if you're going to be.

[A]

So when you make the most of the, of the present, I mean, you must have found, you must have had to officiate some very upsetting or difficult funerals, I imagine too.

[B]

I think the hardest ones for me are children.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Children is heartbreaking because they haven't had an opportunity. And babies, even to this day, I, I can't. Yeah. I can't come to terms with it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Just because it's, you know, it's, it's not a life that has been lived. No.

[A]

It's very hard for the family. So you, yeah. You must find that.

[B]

Yeah, it's. There are no words I can say to them that will make them feel a little bit more comfortable with the situation. Whereas if it's, you know, if it's Mrs. Jones who's husband is 91 and he's passed away, you can kind of find a, a way to make her feel better. You know, you were married for 65 years, so you've got six years, 65 years worth of memories to. Because we're just trying to lift people out of that dark space when we're speaking to them. But we've, when it's a baby or a child or a teenager. What, what, what can you possibly say that's going to take them out of that darkness in that moment?

[A]

Yeah, no, I can see. And it's also very hard imagine because then you, after going to work and doing that in the daytime, you, you go back home to your own family.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean you've got to try and separate these things. So your dad and.

[B]

Yeah, I mean it's a little bit difficult because my wife and my two daughters work for, work for the business as well. So.

[A]

So you're all in. Melville and Daughters. I didn't know your wife was involved.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So this is a real family business.

[B]

Yeah, it really is.

[A]

So how do you manage that? That's interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, okay. It's been a hard day. What, what you do.

[B]

I initially we used to talk about work a lot. I used to talk about work a lot at home and then it got to a point where I was like, we can't escape work so we need to stop talking about work. So I, as soon as I leave the office now, even though my mind's always ticking because, you know, running your own business and what have you, and because it's a 24 hour business, I kind of switch off to what's happened during the day. But my wife at the moment, she, she, she's fallen into the trap that I fell into 16 years ago whereby we were sitting on the sofa yesterday, it was like 9 o' clock and we were watching the Apprentice and she started talking about a case that we were dealing with and I was like, babe, can you just, just, you know, just let's talk about.

[A]

Maybe it wasn't a good addition.

[B]

But it's difficult because when it's your, when it's your own business, you, it's very difficult to detach yourself.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

When you work for someone else you can, you know, switch the phone off and then see you later. I'm off.

[A]

But you can't even switch Your phone off, can you? Because I know you get. Must get calls that someone's died.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Collect them and things do.

[B]

Yeah. I mean the only time that my phone ever gets switched off is when I get on a plane.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Whereas otherwise it's always on because I'll get calls in the middle of the night and I'm climatized to it now because I've been doing it for so long.

[A]

But that's hard when you're in a family context. You know, you can't ever really switch off. But you said you found a way of doing it where you don't.

[B]

Yeah. I mean not talking about work after a certain time when we're at home.

[A]

What time is that?

[B]

Don't tell my wife, but it's about half past six. Even though I get home at seven. Yeah. I tried to say like once I'm. Once I'm at home, right. And I'm settled then I don't want to talk about work anymore because I know in about seven, eight hours time I'm going to have to switch on and, and go again and my phone's always on.

[A]

So I'm interested in your experience. So what sort of advice would you give entrepreneurial families then to sort of have a time of day when that's sor. Off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Off the agenda.

[B]

Off the agenda where? Just know that family time is family time. It's more diff. It's a lot more difficult in the funeral business. But if, you know, if you're, I don't know, another business which is 9 till 5, make sure you have that time that you switch off from work.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you'll just burn yourself out. I've climatized myself to deal with it because of the business that I'm in. But just in, in general as an entrepreneur you need to know when to switch off because you will burn yourself out.

[A]

Yeah. And your daughter's enjoying it.

[B]

Yeah, they, they, they do enjoy it in all fairness. One, my eldest, she's an actor but acting is a very challenging industry to get into. So when she finished acting school she came to work for us part time. Now she works four days a week but if something comes up where she gets a casting or she gets a job, then it works well in that way. Yeah. She can, she can go off and do it until she gets to that stage where you know, she's a one.

[A]

The good thing about having a family business is you can give family members sort of part time work.

[B]

Yeah, I try not, I try not to give them part Time. I try and. Full time.

[A]

Yeah, full time. That's good.

[B]

But it's, it's flexible.

[A]

And the other daughter's full time, is she.

[B]

She, she works when she wants. No, that's being unfair. She works three days a week. But she is a qualified nail technician. Right. But again, she wants to set up her own business. Yeah. But she knows that there's a lot of planning that she needs to do to be able to, to fulfill that.

[A]

Yeah. Seems like they've both got your work for yourself.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But they, on the day to day, they really enjoy it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So when that day comes, I mean, I, I set up the business obviously for myself and also for them. If they want it, they can have it. If not, then, you know, at least it's, it's.

[A]

You must. Now, after this period, you must be as. Have a central role in your community. I mean, you must know a lot of people. Very networked and connected in the community.

[B]

Yeah. I'm very fortunate that people have a, a high regard for the work that not just me, but the team carry out. So there are a lot of people that, that, that know me, which sometimes is difficult when I try and go down to the post office or the bank on our local high street because,

[A]

you know, people are telling you what type of funeral they want.

[B]

Yeah. Or speak to me. But it's nice because like I say to my staff, it's better that they have a positive attitude towards you rather than, you know, you messed up my mom's funeral and it's negative. I mean, I, I went to a 60th birthday party and everyone was coming up and talking to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Whereas if I had hadn't done our work the way that we need to, I might have been lynched. Right.

[A]

Yeah. It's quite high stakes.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You did say you can't get anything wrong. You got to get it absolutely right. Spot on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I can see that, that when you're an integral part of a community is even more pressing and important. But obviously you want to do it properly.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I take a lot of pride in, in, in what we do because I'm, I'm. I'm a perfectionist.

[A]

Now. I heard. I don't know if this is true, but you could let me know that it's possible instead of being returned as a box of ashes, to be returned as a diamond.

[B]

Yeah. My mom keeps going on about this. She keeps saying, damian, when, when it's my time and you can make me, you have to make me into, into a diamond.

[A]

I'm like, right, how does this work? My wife might be interested.

[B]

Yeah. So this, I think the Americans developed this, this technique of using the deceased ashes to formulate a, a diamond.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And even these days you can get lab grown diamonds. So I think in that process they just add a little bit of the cremated remains.

[A]

So you actually have not your entire remain.

[B]

No, no, no. It's literally, it's probably less than a teaspoon that they use.

[A]

Well, that becomes part of a lab created dime.

[B]

Yeah, that's exactly it.

[A]

So you haven't, so your mum's requested this, but you haven't had any of this. You haven't done this for anyone yet.

[B]

Not the diamonds. There's, there's other ornaments that people have had. Like I've got my father in law's ashes in some of my cufflinks. Yeah. Where they, it's, it's, it's called ashes into glass.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that's a lot more straightforward because I just mix a little bit of the ashes into the, the glass making process and then it's a lot easier to do. That's, that's quite, that's quite popular actually where people use it for cufflinks, rings, chains.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You name it.

[A]

So have a part of that person with them.

[B]

Yeah, all the time. Right. That's quite popular.

[A]

So are there any other innovations like that?

[B]

Not really. It's just really an extension of, of that really. Yeah.

[A]

People have requested woodland burials as well. I've come across that. You might not get so much of that in London but.

[B]

No, I've had probably in the 16 years, probably about 10 people. But it's very restrictive because in a woodland burial there's no, there's very limited marking of the grave and it can only ever be a wooden ornament.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So you can't have a traditional headstone or tombstone.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But that's. Some people, that's what they want. They just want to be back in, in nature. Right.

[A]

I didn't know that. So. So, so it just returns to nature basically.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I, what I've seen over the last 16 years or so is that when people are dealing with losing someone, they like to have somewhere to go and reflect. So they need a space to actually go to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And in the middle of the woods for some people wouldn't really be suitable. Whereas they, they just want to go to a grave where there's a headstone and they can go whenever they Want.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And have those moments.

[A]

Yeah. But it's quite hard to find burial places in London, isn't it? Because there's not enough space at the.

[B]

At the moment. It's extremely difficult because a lot of the cemeteries are running out of space. I mean, I spoke to one the other day, and they've only got seven years worth of burial space left. But times are changing anyway because. Because. Because burials are financially. You're kind of tied to a lease. So each person that gets buried, depending on the cemetery, will be between 30 and 50 years. So you pay that lease for that amount of time.

[A]

I've only got 30 or 50 years.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And then what happens in the 50 years? Then the cemetery will write to the next of kin and ask them if they want to renew the lease for another period of time or if they want to really relinquish their rights to the grave. Now, if they relinquish their rights to the grave, the cemetery, then would the ownership reverts back to them.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And they can exhume you and use that space again.

[A]

They can. And where do they take you then?

[B]

Depending on the cemetery, some will. They will exhume the person and then they'll dig further down. Right. And then place them there, and then they'll sell the space that was above them.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's called a reclaimed grave. Right. But they obviously, they let the new purchaser know that the area that they're laying their loved one to rest in is a reclaimed area.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And they're doing that because of space. I mean.

[A]

Right.

[B]

50, 60, 70 years ago, Graves were imperpituity. So they were forever.

[A]

Well, that's what I thought. So this is news to me.

[B]

Yeah. But because they've all realized that they've run. They're running out of space.

[A]

So then you can't get a freehold anymore.

[B]

No.

[A]

Just a leasehold.

[B]

Yeah, it's just leasehold.

[A]

All right.

[B]

I didn't know that there were certain types of graves. But they're extremely expensive, whereby you do have them forever, but they're few and far between. And they're extremely expensive.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They. A lot of the cemeteries changed to. From imperpituity to 100 years. But then again, getting in contact with a family in 100 years time became very, very difficult. People don't tend to stay in the same place anymore. So then a lot of the cemeteries change from 100 years to 50, between 50 and 30 years, because it's more realistic for them to be able to renewal this because it's A, it's a very drawn out process to reclaim graves. You can't just do it. Private cemeteries have to do it through act of parliament, whereas local authorities is a little bit more straightforward.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it's not something that they want to do, to be honest. They just want to write to the leaseholder, ask them when they want to renew, they renew and then that's it. It's happy days.

[A]

So. So just to sort of wrap up here, Damien, have you and your wife and daughters got a business plan for the future? Or you take it as dad's arms? You have a sort of view of where you'd like to take the business or how you'd like to grow it or develop it.

[B]

I, I want us to be able to increase our, our volume of funerals and then ultimately I would like to pass it on to my daughters or if not, then I would then look to exit the business through selling it to a like minded business. So I wouldn't just sell it to anyone because, you know, I can't work forever.

[A]

So you're obviously quite an important part in this story.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that would be the two options, really.

[A]

Yes. And what sort of time frame if you're giving yourself?

[B]

It depends how long I've got.

[A]

Yeah, that's for true of all of us. But as a family business, thinking about the future, if your daughters were going to take it on, what are you thinking? 5, 10 years time?

[B]

I'd say. I'd probably say about 10 years time so that I, I have time to, to enjoy life with my wife and also with my children as well. Well, I say children.

[A]

Well, you can still be involved, but they, yeah, they'd be leading it.

[B]

Yeah, they never get rid of me. I'm too much of a workaholic.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That might be the secret of your success.

[B]

Yeah, so I'd still be, I'd still be there, but.

[A]

Very good. I wish you continued success with that. And thank you very much for coming and talking to me about such a sensitive and important subject because.

[B]

No, thank you for asking me.

[A]

I found it fascinating and I've learned a lot. So thank you.

[B]

Thank you for asking me. It's a privilege and I'm glad you asked me.

[A]

Well, it's very interesting. Thank you for coming. So I always ask two questions, questions at the end of my conversations. The, the first of these questions is, Damien, what gets you up on a Monday morning? Because I read here, Reed, we love Monday. So what gets you up on a Monday morning?

[B]

Knowing the challenges that I face in the coming week. That really gets me up just because I, because, because I love my work. I, I, I love to get back to it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So that is, that is my kind of Monday morning feeling. I can't wait to get to work.

[A]

I like that you love your work. So you love looking forward to getting back to it. Yeah. That's good. And, and in five years time we sort of started exploring that. Where do you see yourself in five years time? That's my last question.

[B]

Five years time with more staff and being able to look after more families.

[A]

So you want to continue to organically grow your business?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, 100%.

[A]

Well, I wish you every success with that.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Forward to hearing about your future growth and how the business goes.

[B]

Appreciate it.

[A]

Thanks for coming and talking to me.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Damian, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Melville and Daughters or Reid, you'll find links in the show notes. Thank you for listening and see you next time.