84. How to grow your business without losing control | David Palmer

Summary

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Podcast Summary

James Reed: All About Business – Episode 84

How to Grow Your Business without Losing Control
Guest: David Palmer (Founder, Life of Fish)
Host: James Reed, CBE
Date: June 22, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, James Reed sits down for an engaging and inspiring conversation with David Palmer, founder of Life of Fish—a modern, sustainability-focused fishmonger that has grown from a pop-up during the COVID-19 pandemic into a multi-site retail business in London. The episode delves into building a business from humble beginnings, learning from failure, scaling without losing the personal touch, and how to modernize and differentiate a traditional industry.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. David’s Early Start in the Fish Trade

• Background: David left school at age 14, coming from a working-class family with five older brothers who also started working young ([02:26-03:51]).
• First Steps: He began working at Billingsgate Fish Market, Europe's largest, at 15, doing the “un-glamorous” jobs (“climbing in and out of bins to find undamaged polystyrene boxes” [06:01]).
• Learning on the Job: Absorbed critical, hands-on skills like grading fish, quality control, food safety, and filleting by “just keeping at it” ([07:45-08:12]).

“You’ll never get to that special place unless you start small, and most importantly, hone your skills and treat everything as important as it can be, because you don’t know when you’re going to need certain types of experience.” — David Palmer [25:54]

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2. From Wholesale to Retail and Early Entrepreneurial Steps

• Wholesale vs. Retail: Experience at Billingsgate (wholesale hours, rough work) contrasted with managing the fish counter at Selfridges (retail, margins, service, dealing with a luxury clientele) ([09:07-12:55]).
• Jamie Oliver’s 15 Foundation: Partial training as a chef ignited a passion for food and people ([09:31-09:41]).
• First Entrepreneurship Attempt: Tried and initially failed with a tuna steak street food stall, selling nothing for two weeks but relocating to Maltby Street Market, and then succeeding ([13:09-15:15]).

On early failure:
“The first week I took 100 tuna steaks to cook and didn’t sell a single one… But there was something in me that was more trying to find solutions as to why it didn’t work, rather than giving up.” — David Palmer [13:51-14:07]

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3. Building Life of Fish in the Pandemic

• Origin Story: Sparked by a joking conversation with Jimmy, the owner of "Cut the Mustard Café," David set up shop outside the café with minimal equipment at the start of COVID ([19:32-20:31]).
• Explosive Demand: Social media and community WhatsApp groups brought swathes of customers ([21:22]); began delivering hundreds of orders by bike, enlisting help from partner Ruth (she "hates fish," but is involved in the business) ([22:30-22:47]).
• Growth on Savings: Business expanded "with no investment or loans—purely profit reinvested" ([24:16]):
  • Opened first permanent shop, then multiple locations as demand remained high ([24:28-24:33]).
• Cautious Optimism: David remained wary, recognizing unique pandemic conditions fueled initial surges ([24:16-24:28]).

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4. Modernizing the Fishmonger Experience

• Customer Education and Service:
  • Shifted focus from filleting skills to educating customers on sourcing, sustainability, and cooking ([17:41-18:21]).
  • Created a more approachable shop atmosphere—selling pantry items, deli products, not just fish, to make visiting less intimidating ([46:50-48:15]).
  • Emphasis on storytelling and transparency about where and how fish are caught.

“Education around fish and where the fish comes from and how to make it easy is probably more important than [filleting], because after all, we want the customers to buy the fish.” — David Palmer [17:57]

• Direct Local Sourcing:
  • Relies on small day-boats, often buying the entire catch: “Low impact on the ocean… most sustainable way of fishing” ([29:00-29:11]).
  • Adheres to Marine Conservation Society guidelines ([30:30-31:56]).

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5. Business Lessons and Scaling with Care

• Staying in Control: David has resisted external investment to avoid overextending and losing his grip on quality and culture ([40:19-41:40]).
• Learning from Early Overexpansion: Attempted to open too many locations too fast, resulting in closing a shop (“a difficult decision, but should have happened two years earlier”—[41:53]).
• People Challenges:
  • Delegating is the hardest part: “I can only get around as many shops as I can… always something going wrong all the time, mainly on the people side” ([39:18-39:56]).
  • Importance of hiring for personality over skill: “Personality is worth more than any skill. I can teach the skill, but you can't teach people to have a really good personality or to be engaged”—David Palmer [43:39-43:54].
  • Interview approach centers on establishing comfort, transparency about the unglamorous aspects, and assessing attitude rather than experience ([44:11-45:48]).

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6. Responsibility, Sustainability, and Adaptation

• Stock Selection and Environmentalism:
  • Explains fish stock status and choices (mackerel example), balancing what’s caught with sustainability ([28:44-31:56]).
  • Encourages customers to use Marine Conservation Society app to check fish sustainability ([51:44-51:57]).

“Businesses are like living things. They take on a mind of their own and a path of their own… in the early days, I didn’t know to listen when my business was screaming at me to change something.” — David Palmer [41:35]

• Innovation with “Waste” Fish: Created a tuna “double cheeseburger” from bluefin carcass trimmings for the Meatopia festival ([36:15-38:11]).

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7. Personal Reflections and Advice

• Advice to Young Self: “Maybe don’t be so hard on yourself, make sure to listen really well, and just go for it… You never know when you’re going to need certain types of experience.” ([24:49-25:54])

• Monday Motivation: Mondays are dedicated to family and reflection: “I love Mondays, because it’s my only day off. I spend the time reflecting and try to improve for the week ahead.” ([54:34-56:08])

• Looking Ahead:

  • Either maintain/refine the current level or, perhaps, take investment to scale, but always “careful not to dilute too much” ([58:28-59:04]).
  • Enjoys the challenge and responsibility: “No one cares about it more than you.” ([56:00-56:01])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On starting as a 15-year-old at Billingsgate:
  “My first job… was to climb in and out of bins to get polystyrene boxes… 2:00am, 15 years old, crawling in and out of these bins… that’s how I got into fish.” — David Palmer [06:09-06:20]

• On early entrepreneurial failure:
  “I went back the following week… I didn’t sell a single one. I was like, so then what happened?” ([14:23])
  “But if I didn’t keep going back to make those mistakes… I may never have gone to Maltby Street.” ([15:15])

• On staff recruitment:
  "You can teach the skill, but you can't teach people to have a really good personality or… to be engaged… our job is all about smiling." — David Palmer [43:47-44:00]

• On customer intimidation in a fishmonger:
  “It can be quite intimidating going into a fishmongers and seeing a load of whole fish… We focus more on customer service… education around fish is probably more important than filleting skills.” — David Palmer [17:41-18:21]

• On overexpansion:
  “We probably grew too quick in the early days… Closed one of the shops, really focused on what we have. Rich in what we already have, really doubling down.” — David Palmer [39:27-39:40]

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Important Timestamps

• David’s Early Life and Billingsgate Days: [02:10–08:17]
• Transition to Retail, Selfridges, and Jamie Oliver’s Program: [09:07–12:55]
• First Street Food Venture: [13:09–15:24]
• Building the Brand During COVID: [19:32–24:33]
• Customer Service and the Modern Fishmonger: [17:41–18:21], [46:50–48:15]
• Sourcing and Sustainability Practices: [29:00–31:56]
• Scaling and Control, Staff Recruitment: [39:18–45:48]
• Innovation (Fish Burger at Meatopia): [36:15–38:11]
• Looking Ahead (Growth vs. Control): [58:28–59:04]
• Advice to Young Entrepreneurs: [24:49–25:54]

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Conclusion

This episode delivers an honest, practical, and sometimes humorous journey through the realities of growing a business in a traditional field, the value of persistence after early failures, and the challenges of maintaining quality and a personal touch as you scale. David Palmer’s story provides actionable insight for entrepreneurs navigating growth without losing control—and insists that personality, customer education, community focus, and sustainability are central to a modern, resilient business.

Find Life of Fish:

• lifeof.fish
• Outlets in Peckham, Abbeville Road (Clapham), and Selfridges Food Hall, plus online delivery.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. What does it take to build a business from scratch and turn early momentum into something that lasts? Today on All About Business, I'm joined by David Palmer, founder of Life of Fish, a modern fishmonger that has grown from a lockdown pop up into a multi site retail business focused on quality, sustainability and community. In this episode, we discuss building a business with limited resources, why failure can be an advantage, and how to create a brand in one of the most traditional industries in the uk. Well, today on All About Business, I'm really, really delighted to welcome David Palmer. David is the founder and director of Life of Fish, a modern sustainability focused fishmonger based here in London. And David, your life of fish began, I believe, at the age of 15, if not earlier. You've been in the fish business all your, all your sort of adult life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you're the right person for us to be talking to, to learn about this subject and I'm really looking forward to the conversation because I love fish, I love eating fish, I like fishing, I like the sea and I like looking after fish as well. So we can cover all of those, all of those aspects. As I understand that you started the business, know, coming out of the pandemic or during the pandemic, but before that you worked for many years at Selfridges in London in the fish counter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so could you just give, give me a little introduction to yourself in terms of how you got into this, this business and, and what your early sort of lessons and learnings were.

[B]

Yeah, sure, yeah. So I, I left school at a really young age. I never really got along with school, to be honest. And then I think I left around year seven, which, which is yet the first year of secondary school. Obviously that's.

[A]

That meant. How old is that is a really young age.

[B]

I think it's like 11 or 12 or something, isn't it?

[A]

You're not allowed to leave school.

[B]

No. You're not, you're certainly not allowed to. No. We've got many visits.

[A]

All right. But you, you just left.

[B]

I. I left, yeah. I didn't, I didn't like it and there was no way I was going back. But My mum started homeschooling me for the first few years and we did that until I was around 14 and having five older brothers. I think their. Their plan was.

[A]

Hang on, you have five older brothers?

[B]

Five older brothers.

[A]

Were they being homeschooled as well?

[B]

No, no, no. They sort of. They sort of all did a similar thing. I don't. I think only one of us barely finished school, to be honest.

[A]

Right, but none of you like school?

[B]

No, we grew up on a council estate in Rotherhive in Bermondsey.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It was kind of. It was kind of the trend. It was the 90s then, you know, sort of. I don't want to kind of like forgotten kids and. And just sort of kids roaming around on bikes, really. So it wasn't. It wasn't the most amazing upbringing, I must say.

[A]

No, but you had the solidarity of your family.

[B]

Yeah, we had the solidarity of the family and we've all. We've all always worked. So I. I saw all of my older brothers work from a young age and weirdly, it was kind of normal then. About 15, 16, just to go straight to work. I don't know if it was just the area I grew up in, but there wasn't. There wasn't many other things to do, you know, university and stuff like that. Wasn't. Wasn't really. You didn't see anybody go off to uni or anything like that.

[A]

If you weren't going to university, you went to work, I suppose.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So. So I think. I think their aim was to make me go back to school because obviously they didn't. So they wanted the best for me and I think it was more like a scare tactic. Well, if you're not going to go to school this, then you got to come to work with us at 2 o' clock in the morning at Billingsgate Market.

[A]

Oh, so they were working at Billings?

[B]

Yeah, they were working at Billings.

[A]

Your mom and dad?

[B]

No, no, your brothers.

[A]

Your brothers.

[B]

Okay, so. So I said, being a bit cocky, all right, fine, I will then. Like anything's better than school.

[A]

Well, so you better say what Billingsgate is in case people listening don't know. I mean, I know if it's a Londoner, but what. What is?

[B]

Billingsgate is. I think it's the largest fish market in Europe and it's. Yeah, it's. It's a big fish market in. Based in London, basically now in the Docklands, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah, it used to be in the city.

[B]

Right next. Right next to Canary Wharf. It used to be located just across London Bridge, basically. Which very central location would make things a lot easier for me now. But yeah, so. So they were basically working through the night prepping fish for fine dining restaurants. That was. That was their job. So they took me in, I think, hoping that they would. I would see.

[A]

Well, age 15.

[B]

Age. Age 14.

[A]

14, you'd think, well, I don't want to do this.

[B]

Oh, my God. Yeah, I don't want to do this. I better run back to school.

[A]

Right. But it didn't work.

[B]

But it didn't work.

[A]

So what you like?

[B]

I wouldn't say I loved it, but I didn't dislike it.

[A]

Right, you didn't dislike it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You got into it one way or another.

[B]

Yeah. And the. The owner of the company basically said to me, all right, if you're serious and want to work for all time, come back when you're 15. So I did.

[A]

Because it was lawful to start employing 15.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I did. And my first job at Billingsgate was to climb into these. They've got these huge containers where all the polystyrene boxes are stored. And obviously this is. This is back, what, 25th, 2005, I guess, around then. So there wasn't, you know, Amazon where you could just order nice boxes. So my first job was to climb in and out of bins.

[A]

Right.

[B]

To get polystyrene boxes to then jet wash them nice and clean, to then be used to pack fish in again.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So 2:00am, 15 years old, crawling in and out of these bins looking for boxes that weren't damaged, basically is how I got into fish. Right.

[A]

And then what happened after that?

[B]

Then I graduated.

[A]

Sounds like something happened. Charles Dickens book.

[B]

I know, it's bizarre, isn't it?

[A]

Well, I mean, you. But you made a life and career out of it. Yeah, successfully. So how did you do that? What happened next?

[B]

I don't know. I guess. I guess there was just this determination to sort of keep going back and not necessarily to find the boxes, but, you know, there was a lot of other things going on there, like filleting fish and seeing these huge fish come in that were being filleted for, you know, like Gordon Ramsay restaurants in his. In his prime.

[A]

And so these were tuna fish.

[B]

Were they mainly like a lot of salmon and a lot of cod. So it was kind of exciting and traumatized at the same time, you know, because it was like early hours of the morning, freezing cold.

[A]

Did you feel sorry for the fish? When you said traumatizing, I was wondering what.

[B]

No, it was more. It was more just the, the elements of like being January and it being snowing outside. Yeah, it was very.

[A]

It was.

[B]

It still is a very tough job. But then I sort of. I think they saw that I was going to stick around and then they started getting me more involved in prepping and cleaning squid and things like that, which is kind of like the entry level to be in a fishmonger. And then sort of fast forward a bit, did that for a while and then I. I started helping to pick all of the orders for these fine dining restaurants.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I didn't really know. It didn't really sink in, like, the experience I was actually gaining. But what I was learning is about grading fish, understanding sizes and understanding, you know, quality control and, you know, how to look after fish with regards to, like packing it away and things like that. So I was actually learning a lot more than I thought I was. I think at the time.

[A]

You didn't realize.

[B]

No, I didn't realize. And then I started learning how to fill it. Fish as well.

[A]

Did you do a formal apprenticeship or you just sort of learned? No, it was, it wasn't structured in that.

[B]

No, it wasn't structured. And I think that was the kind of. When I say traumatizing, it was kind of, you know, I was. One week, I was playing PlayStation at home, nice, cozy in my room, and then all of a sudden I was. I was off to work and. Yeah, two o' clock in the morning, six days a week, about 12 hours a day with a load of men that were. It was. I always describe it as like. Imagine having like four Gordon Ramsay's just screaming and shouting at you all day.

[A]

It's not. You're not, you're not selling.

[B]

I'm not selling it, am I? Yeah, sorry. But I mean, it sort of, it does sort of lead to why how I run my business these days.

[A]

Go on. But, so, so, so, but then, but before we talk about your business, which you started in this decade, you worked at Selfridges, so you learned to become a fishmonger. And then, I mean, Selfridges, you were at the fish counter, is that right?

[B]

Yes, I was the manager there. So I, I'd sort of learn. Learned enough about fish in wholesale and. And I went into retail just because I'm more of a people person and I have a passion for food. Before, around the same sort of time, I was also enrolled into the Jamie Oliver 15 foundation, which I completed the first section of that of cooking and learning how to be a chef.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then yeah. So I discovered that I, you know, I really like working with people and the hours for the wholesale side of things at Billingsgate weren't suit in me so much. So that's when I moved. I actually started working in a small independent fishmongers before Selfridges, which is where I. I learned how to sell and price fish and, and deal with customers really. And. And I was able to sort of show my passion more for fish there. Whereas in wholesale, it's more about just throwing the fish in, into a box, getting the order ready, getting it shipped. Yeah. And then the director of the company that ended up taking over the concession in Selfridges was on the hunt for a manager, went round all of the good independent fishmongers and that's how he found me and offered me the job to be the manager in. In Selfridges, which.

[A]

So you. You were headhunted.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Caught on a hook.

[B]

I was trying to think of a

[A]

funny fish analogy, but you. But that. So that was an interesting process of recruitment, which makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah.

[B]

And it was the first time that I'd really been able to see that, you know, maybe there is a bit of a career path in, in fish and fishmongering. It's a lot different today. Fishmongers are great today, but then it was kind of. Everybody was in it because it was all they could do. If you like, kind of like how I was in it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, moving on to Selfridges was. Was a massive career change.

[A]

Did you know that There are nearly 1 million 18 to 24 year olds who are currently not in education, employment or training in the uk? This is simply not good enough and I want to do something about it. That's why Reid is launching a new initiative giving 20,000 pounds to young entrepreneurs to help them grow their small business. Visit reid.com entrepreneurs to find out more. We want to support and encourage the next generation of entrepreneurs. And you stayed there for how long?

[B]

I was there for, I think, nearly nine years.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I learned going there, moving to Selfridges, I just. I learned more about pricing fish and margins and obviously more dealing with a luxury service and providing a luxury service to. To a different clientele, really.

[A]

So. So over this period, you. You'd accumulated a lot of knowledge and experience. Yeah. From Billingsgate and up until the time you were at Selfridges, clearly. And you'd learned about cooking and, and obviously service as well. So this gave you. Gave you a lot of sort of resources with which to start your own business.

[B]

In a way, yeah, definitely. And I don't think I realized that at the time. I think I was just kind of plodding along. But it wasn't until I did go to Selfridges that I sort of. I started seeing. We were getting training for certain things and I was kind of like, well, I already know this.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then I started to piece the puzzle as the manager there and I learned about all sorts of different things like food safety procedures and all that sort of stuff. Some of the best food safety training out there, obviously, Selfridges, and that's something that we apply to ourselves today.

[A]

Really important. So what, so what was the moment that made you decide to go out on your own? I mean, this is a key moment for entrepreneurs, isn't? You're gonna take the plunge and. And start my business. How did that happen? What, what was your journey?

[B]

I started a little street food business there. It was at the time, there was this movement of lots of different street food vendors that were buying high quality produce that you would get in a restaurant, but they were cooking it in a street food as you're cooking it as well. Yeah, yeah. So. So I started that and the first week I took 100 tuna steaks to cook and didn't sell a single one.

[A]

Where was this?

[B]

This was a brick lane.

[A]

You didn't sell a single single one.

[B]

There was about 300 people walking around. It did, yeah. And then 100 tuners. Yeah, I know my freezer was packed.

[A]

So what happened there? So how did you proceed from there?

[B]

And then, I don't know, I just. I went home and I was a bit down. I was a bit like, oh, I really had my heart set on this because I'd seen other people do it and thought, why? Like. But there was something in me that was kind of. I was more trying to find solutions as to why it didn't work.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Rather than giving up. And I think that was really the first time that I saw something different in myself. And I went back the following week and this is the part where you probably expect me to say I sold a thousand and I didn't sell a single one.

[A]

I wasn't sure what you were going to sell.

[B]

And I was like, so then what happened? And then I went back and then I did end up selling a few. And so that was the third week and that gave me a bit of a buzz to, to, you know, keep moving. But what it taught me is that I, I was in the wrong area. And then I moved to a different market, got There could barely set.

[A]

Where did you go?

[B]

So I went to Maltby Street Market, which is near Borough Market.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So different clientele really.

[A]

So many tourists?

[B]

A bit, yeah. Yeah. Closer to home maybe. And I sold, I think I sold 100 or 70 tuna steaks in an hour.

[A]

So the location was crazy.

[B]

Yeah. So that's what I learned. But I always think to myself, if I didn't keep going back to make those mistakes or whatever it may have been, I may never have gone to Morby street. And I made 700 pound profit in an hour on my day off. And honestly, if you would have seen me, it was like I was a millionaire walking down the street.

[A]

So there was no looking back.

[B]

No, there was. After that it, it just filled me with this feeling that I knew that I would never be able to get from working for somebody else. And that was apparent when I went back to work the following week. And I was.

[A]

Didn't like being told what to do.

[B]

No, I had a really good job on a good wage and, and whatever else. But yeah, there was something inside me that just, I think I unlocked this entrepreneurial spirit.

[A]

I think so. So you had this, this concession in mo. The street, Mark.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then you started a fishmonger. Is there.

[B]

Well, so I did that for a few months and then logistically it just wasn't working out, which is another learning curve because I didn't have a driving license.

[A]

So I was, I was getting everything that's expensive.

[B]

It was just. Yeah, it was just. So I went back to work and then started over the next few years kind of formulating a plan in my head.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it, I was just held on

[A]

to this idea that you wanted to work for yourself.

[B]

I knew that I wanted to do something and I knew, I also knew that street food wasn't it because it wasn't sustainable. I was never going to be able to sustain an income.

[A]

Right.

[B]

People do, but me personally, I don't think I could have done that. So I. But yeah, I always knew that I wanted to do something for myself. And then I think I was just frustrated with fishmongers in London especially or, or the uk. I just, I felt like it was quite a boring and people were referring to it as like a dying trade, which obviously it's my trade. I, I've been doing it my whole life and at this point I was about, I'm 36 now. I was about 30 then and I just suddenly thought butchers had this sort of resurgence where they had like the cool aprons and Everything they, they were more explaining about where the meat comes from and people were taking a bit more pride and wanting to understand more about where their food comes from. And I was kind of there with all the information, so. But nobody had really ever done that in fish, in a fishmongers anyway, for customers to be able to, I mean

[A]

your, your concept then is to sort of share much more about the produce.

[B]

Yeah, definitely. I think it can be quite intimidating when going into a fishmongers and seeing a load of whole fish and having to, you know, how do you help people?

[A]

Yeah, I understand that. Because you don't know what they are or no, which ones are fragile, how to cook them necessarily. So how do you help people with that?

[B]

We just, we focus more on customer service rather than say your filleting skills, because that can be taught. But what we found is that, you know, education around fish and where the fish comes from and how to cook fish and how to make it easy is probably more important than that because after all, we want the customers to buy the fish.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think I witnessed, I've just witnessed so many different scenarios in fishmongers where they're just not been helpful to customers. And in my head I'm like, you're, you're losing customers, right? Yeah.

[A]

So you've brought a real customer focus to this.

[B]

Yeah, customer focused. And then also just made it a bit more appealing by selling different things other than just fish. So you can come into any of our stores and, and buy non, non fish related things, you know.

[A]

So if we want to find you. Life of fish, you say, coming up, how do people find you if they want to come and enjoy your service and buy fish from you?

[B]

So we've got two shops. One is based in Peckham and one's based in Abbeville Road in Clapham, a lovely little street in southwest London.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Opposite the famous butcher's ginger pig. And then friends. Yeah. And then obviously in Selfridges Food hall, we've got a big concession there, Selfridges

[A]

Food hall as well.

[B]

So. Yeah.

[A]

So you maintain that relationship successfully. So David, as I understand it, you started selling fish outside of a cafe. How did you build the business and the brand from there?

[B]

Yeah, so I. There was a cafe at the end of my street and I knew the owner, Jimmy. It's called Cut the Mustard Cafe. They bake all their own bread and all that sort of stuff and it was just, it was just in the, in the first stages of COVID and nobody really knew what was going to be happening. And we had a brief chat and I, I jokingly said, if it gets any worse, I may have to start selling fish out the front. And he's a proper entrepreneur, you know, he started his business similar to how we did, and he said, well, why don't you? And I think I said yes, with a bit of fear. And then he sort of called me the following week and said, so are you gonna, Are you gonna sell fish outside tomorrow? Because I'll put something on Instagram if you are. And, yeah. And something in me was like, this is the moment I've been waiting for.

[A]

So who was this man? What's his name?

[B]

His name's Jimmy.

[A]

Jimmy.

[B]

Yeah, he was.

[A]

His cafe called Shout out for Jimmy.

[B]

Cut the mustard.

[A]

Cut the mustard. So that was where you started?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He encouraged you?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, he's. He's, yeah, he's really encouraging, actually, the whole time. So, yeah, I, I, the next. I think that was on the Thursday and, And then on the Friday, I, I ordered some fish and it turned up in a load of polystyrene boxes. I took cake weighing scales, like, for flour to weigh the fish, a calculator, a little change box and a single knife, thinking, obviously, nobody knew what Covid was at this point, but the supermarket shelves were pretty empty. So everybody was at home and looking for something, you know, decent to eat. And, yeah, he put this post out on Instagram and I set everything up. There was nobody there. And then I think I bent down to pick up the bucket of water and looked and there was about 70 people queuing for my fish.

[A]

70.

[B]

About 70 people.

[A]

That's quite.

[B]

And I was like, oh, my God. So there I was, just filling all of the fish, and people absolutely loved it. And then the same thing happened the following week, right? And more people turned up. And then gradually from there, everybody. I don't know if you remember, but Everybody started creating WhatsApp groups for the areas and the streets and things in. In lockdown. And we would all go out and clap, which seems like forever ago. And my Instagram started getting passed around as the guy who can deliver fish. At this point, I wasn't delivering anything.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I started getting loads of messages and that then moved on to WhatsApp messages, people sending me their orders of fish.

[A]

So in a way, the pandemic made your business possible. It wouldn't have happened if that happened.

[B]

Yeah, definitely.

[A]

It's a positive out of it.

[B]

Yeah. And I was, yeah, we were prepping. I was prepping fish, prepping orders for, for people. The Fish orders in my kitchen at home.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then I just, I, I think we got one weekend, we got a hundred orders of fish at this point, no driving license, nothing. And I attempted to deliver. Well, I did. I had delivered a hundred orders on a push bike.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Um, so I've been up at whatever time and I realized I couldn't do it on my own and woke my partner roof up and said you're going to have to help me with this. Bear in mind, Ruth hates fish, funnily. And. Yeah, and yeah, Ruth's my partner in the business and my partner. And that's how it began really. And then we just grew and grew and one thing we've always done in the business is we never knew that we would get this far. So I think I always save, I was very careful with the profits and I always saved any profit. I think the first weekend we made like a thousand pound profit. Then the following week, and then it was, and then we just kept saving it and it just grew, it was growing so fast. And we were doing about 2, 300 deliveries in a weekend at this point. I got a delivery driver by the way. And the, the natural progression for that would be to just open a shop and people could come to the shop rather than. Because it's a lot of work prepping and delivering and then we open, then a shop became available next to cut the mustard at the end of the road. And it was just. Yeah, so that worked brilliantly. Yeah, it worked brilliantly. Our first day that we opened, honestly, about 150 people showed up, the queue was down the end of the road around the corner. And it was like that for probably for about a year.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But I was always cautious in, in terms of like knowing that it kind of wasn't real. It was the pandemic, you know, everybody was at home and not at work. That's why we were so busy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that was one of the reasons for, to expand as well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But that's how.

[A]

That's a great story. Thank you for sharing that. And then the other question on my mind, when you described starting work very young, is there any advice looking back now that you'd give your younger self, you know, that 15 year old David,

[B]

maybe don't be so hard on yourself and make sure, make sure to listen really well and, and just go for it, you know, because this, even now, you know, the smallest things can really grow and turn into something really special, you know, but you'll, you'll never get to that special place unless you start small and, and, and most importantly, you know, hone your skills and, and make sure that you treat everything as, as important as it can be, because you don't. You, you know, I talked about, spoke about cleaning those boxes when we first opened the shop. We didn't, like I say, we, we didn't have any money really. And, and there was a time, you know, where we were sort of making do with all sorts of things. And if I hadn't gone through that experience that I said I disliked, then we, maybe I wouldn't have had, you know, the experience to, to get where we are today. So you never know when you're going to need certain types of experience. And I think sometimes people in jobs sometimes don't like doing certain things.

[A]

But, but you also said that you didn't realize how much you'd learn.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

So when you say, you know, don't be hard on yourself and really listen, you're learning all the time, aren't you?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And that, that's very valuable. I think early in people's careers, you know, there's a huge amount to learn.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And to sort of go out and try and learn as much as possible.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I, I think that, you know, it's, it can be really beneficial. Starting from the bottom.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because you learn, you learn all sorts of things that you may, you may not have, you know, yet in all different situations at work, you may be asked to help this person do that. You know, I used, I used to help all different people at one point, actually. It's a good story, if I can share. Yeah. I'd been, I'd been fillet and fish and everything for about two years and, and the owner came into the warehouse and said that the person who does the invoicing has left. Just walked out. We've got no, nobody doing the invoices for all of these fine dining restaurants. And he sort of shouted, does anybody know how to use a computer? And nobody put their hand up. And I was like, I did. So I did. And I instantly went from cleaning squid outside into a nice comfy office. Input in all of the data and the fish weights and charging all of these restaurants and printing out all of these invoices and, you know, putting them in the correct piles for where they

[A]

would deliver to learn about the business.

[B]

But, you know, if I, if I didn't stick it out through cleaning those boxes and things like that, I never would have got that opportunity. So, yeah, it's all Just as important as each other, I would say.

[A]

So, okay, so what are the. What are the most popular fish? What. What do you sell the most of?

[B]

We sell a lot of salmon. Right, A lot of salmon. Salmon's kind of people's go to, I think, for midweek meals and then it'll be another white fish, I would say, along the lines of cod hake, things like that. We generally try to keep people onto British coastal fish rather than wild British coastal fish rather than farmed.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Fish, which, which, yeah, I mean, people love salmon. I don't think you could ever turn them away from that. But, but that would.

[A]

That would be farmed.

[B]

That would be farmed, yeah.

[A]

But the other fish would tend to be wild.

[B]

Yeah, they tend to be wild.

[A]

So. So the moment there's. There's concern about the mackerel stocks around the UK and they've been graded five, I think, on the risk list. So some, some stores are not taking mackerel anymore. What's your view on that and how do you deal with that?

[B]

I mean, I'm, I'm all for it. Obviously. We need the fishermen to be able to sustain our business and sell fish. And I know personally, just because we do use. A majority of our fish comes from small day boats. Which are small day boats. Yes.

[A]

What are they? So.

[B]

So they only go out for short periods of time, whereas they're not the controllers, they're not big trawlers. They have low impact on the ocean, basically, and it's the most sustainable way of fishing.

[A]

And where do they go from these guys?

[B]

So a lot of these go out of all different places in Cornwall and in Devon, we. I drive three times a week to Hastings. Where you've got a driving license. Yeah, I got driving license now, yeah. Thank God.

[A]

To Hastings.

[B]

What happens there? I drive to Hastings and basically there's two fishermen there that I buy. Everything that they catch.

[A]

Right. Super fresh and it's sourced locally. Yeah.

[B]

So it's, it's. It's.

[A]

So you buy the whole catch?

[B]

I buy the whole catch, yeah. Whereas I love you. Yeah. I mean, well, it was, it was. It was my way of getting them to sell. Sell to me. Just because a lot of the bigger companies, they want to sort through and find the. The perfect size for chefs and restaurants. Whereas us, we're selling to the point,

[A]

what do they have typically in their catch?

[B]

So they can have anything a lot of place. Occasionally a turbot and occasionally mackerel.

[A]

But they've already caught them.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I try to you know, we concentrate a lot on the Marine Conservation Society on. On their website, and what they recommend is a fish a good fish to eat or a good. Or. Or a fish to avoid. And we tend to follow that, like almost religiously, especially for Selfridges.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then there's the other side of it, where I'm actually physically dealing with the fishermen and I can see that, you know, they. They say to me, we're not actively looking for mackerel, but we've caught them. And once they're there, you know, at me as an operator, what I'm. And what am I meant to do? Am I meant to see them throw these dead fish back in the water or am I meant to buy them? So you can. Can sort of be stuck in between sometimes, but. But generally we do buy the whole catch of everything they've caught.

[A]

Yeah. And. And you're doing that on the understanding they're not actively looking for things.

[B]

No, I mean, if there were three. Three huge crates of macro, I'll probably turn them and turn them away because then that.

[A]

That suggests they've been out fishing for back.

[B]

Exactly, yeah. Whereas if there's three to five fish or something like that, then. Then we'll take them. But. And then that's when it becomes important in our shops, as I mentioned before, is that we then educate our staff and they will then.

[A]

So this matters to your customers, you find?

[B]

Yeah, definitely, yeah. Yeah. Especially with social media and stuff like that. Everybody is kind of educated around things like this now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which. Which I remember a lot of people almost seeing that as a negative, whereas I always thought that was a positive. Because then that opens the doors for us now to be able to show all of our hard work and experience with regards to how we source our fish.

[A]

Yeah. Have you seen people's sort of eating habits change? Are people eating more or less fish? Is that.

[B]

I mean, definitely more or eating more fish? Yeah, definitely more.

[A]

Why is that, do you think?

[B]

Because we're around. No, I'm just.

[A]

Because there's a great. If you don't have the good fortune of living near one of your outlets.

[B]

Yeah, we do deliveries as well. Yeah, we've got an online.

[A]

How do you. So you've got an online shop? You didn't tell me about that. Find your online shop.

[B]

Yeah. So on our website, my partner, Ruth.

[A]

What's your. What's your website called?

[B]

It's www.lifeof.fish life.com. we thought we would be.

[A]

Oh, you're a dot fish.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Dot life of dot fish. Okay.

[B]

Ruth, my partner, who is a brilliant graphic designer and web developer, she, she comes up with, she's created cool, little creative.

[A]

So you can order online?

[B]

Yeah, so you can order online. I think we are the only fishmonger that is also that's got physical stores as well as online.

[A]

So how long, how long does it stay fresh? How do you get it? I mean, because one of what you've been describing, the sort of going to Hastings, getting it fresh is quite appealing, but how do you get it to people quickly enough?

[B]

So everything's ordering, everything's next day delivery, next.

[A]

So that's like getting it from Cornwall.

[B]

Yeah, exactly, yeah. So you'll order with us. We've, we've always got, we've designed the website to have obviously our stock items in and if something isn't available, it's not available. But normally we know, I, I, we have, we tend to have regular customers online, so.

[A]

Lifeof Fish, go and have a look at that.

[B]

Yeah, you should.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that sounds, and

[B]

it's often me who still does the deliveries, really.

[A]

So you come in person, so that's good too.

[B]

Yeah, I always, Yeah, I always just find that, well, one thing that I found with running the business is you have to also find what you like to do in the business as well as all the boring stuff and doing the deliveries and being out and about in the van and stuff is. Yeah, I enjoy it.

[A]

So you like, as you said earlier, dealing with people. So you like dealing with customers? You like dealing with the.

[B]

Yeah, suppliers. Yeah, I mean, I'm awake from 4am Pretty much four times a week. So my day can look like anything.

[A]

You actually get up at 4am, unlike

[B]

me, I just wake up at 4am oh, really? Oh, God.

[A]

But you're using the time more productively.

[B]

Some, sometimes.

[A]

So you get up at 4:00am?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, about that. And yeah, I'll go into each shop, see their displays, make sure the displays look nice, make sure that they're, you know, one.

[A]

What time do the shops open?

[B]

They open at 9:30.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, so, so not. But before then you've got to get

[A]

everything into the shop.

[B]

Before then I would have been to collect the fish and back again and then distribute the fish.

[A]

Where'd you collect it from?

[B]

So we do, we do buy a bit from Billingsgate.

[A]

Right. So you're either getting it from Hastings.

[B]

Yeah, Hastings. And then we buy a lot from New Lin in Cornwall and Brixham in Devon. A lot of our flat fish come from Brixham in Devon. But there's. If you, if you can order a bulk amount, then Cornwall Transport will deliver directly to the shop. So everything that was caught yesterday tends to be delivered today. So it's a pretty good service if

[A]

that's really important, isn't it?

[B]

If you can, if you can sell enough fish because.

[A]

So is it true you shouldn't buy fish on a Monday?

[B]

Not so much anymore, no.

[A]

Why is that? Just because I've always been told.

[B]

Well, we've, we've. I have to say this now anyway, because we've. We're actually a seven day operation now in all of our shops. Yeah. We're sort of trying to get rid of that stigma around not buying fish on a Monday. The, the traditionally that was in. That was a thing because everybody bought their fish from Billingsgate and Billingsgate is closed on a Monday.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But because we buy so much fish, obviously to be able to sell throughout our shops, it means that we do buy directly from the coast, which we do get deliveries nearly every day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Also fish shelf life, you know, you tend. You can have fish that last two days comfortably. So it might be a, a less selection, say to a Saturday. But, but yeah, just I think I'll say some. A good fishmonger opening on a Monday is, is fine.

[A]

It shouldn't be a problem.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. So you've said you also learned from Jamie Oliver you're a bit of, a bit of a chef.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What's your favorite fish and how, how would you suggest it be prepared?

[B]

Weirdly, I always go for all the cheaper fish.

[A]

Yeah, go on. That's. That's encouraging.

[B]

I love things like Gurnard to make fish and chips out of Gurnard is really nice because it's quite, it tends to have quite a meaty texture.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But my sort of speciality is turning fish into what you would normally use meat for. So I cook. I've cooked twice now at one of the largest barbecue festivals around called Meatopia.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And the proof is kind of in the name, I think when I contacted them and asked if I could cook there, they were like, well, we're called Meatopia, not Fishtopia.

[A]

And where's Miitopia occur?

[B]

Is it Tobacco Dock in London? Yeah. Yeah. So it's every summer, September, I think so.

[A]

So anyone going to meet Topia who doesn't fancy a steak can find you.

[B]

Find me. Yeah.

[A]

So.

[B]

So what we cooked this year is there's a lot of British bluefin tuna now in the uk. They've been migrating here. Yeah. For the last, I think it is.

[A]

But is that because the sea is getting warmer?

[B]

Yeah, all different things, apparently. It's that there's a lot of mixed opinions, but a lot to do with it is they just migrate, I think.

[A]

Bluefin tuna around the uk, yeah.

[B]

Yeah, loads of bluefin tuna. But one thing I learned from my wholesale days is that a lot of fish just gets filleted and the bones get thrown away full of meat. So for Meatopia, I created a double cheeseburger by using all of the carcasses that would have normally been wasted with full of meat, minced it how you would normal normally do a burger, and turned it into what looked like a double cheeseburger.

[A]

But it was fish.

[B]

But it was fish.

[A]

And so what did you call it?

[B]

A blue fin Double, I think it was called. And people went nuts and we. We had a queue of about 500 people.

[A]

Really? Well, it seems quite original.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So this is all that. This is all the sort of left?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, they're big chunks of meat left on the carcass, so.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I always just saw an opportunity not to waste it. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was partly.

[A]

Can you sell that? Do you sell those through your. Your fish?

[B]

We were selling them last summer. Yeah. After I did meet open, we had loads of people come in saying, where can I buy these?

[A]

Which I'm going to do that again

[B]

this year, I think. So, yeah. Every year you have to cook something different, but obviously it has to reflect kind of like a meat dish to fit in with Meatopia, I would say.

[A]

Right, right. So how are you hoping to sort of grow and develop your business from here?

[B]

I think one thing that we've learned is to really concentrate on what we've got at the moment. I think in the early days I was maybe a bit too eager to grow, which resulted in us having to close our first shop. Just because I'm. I'm just one person, you know, I can't. I can only get round a. As many shops as I can and. And staff, there's. There's always something going wrong all the time, basically. A friend of mine just basically describes it as putting out fires.

[A]

Well, on the people side of.

[B]

On the. Mainly on the people side of things. So, yeah, I would say that we. We probably grew too quick in the early days.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Closed one of the shops really focused on what we have and that's what we. We tend to be doing now is focusing. And so you're rich in what we

[A]

already have, really doubling down on Your

[B]

operation as it is, as difficult as it is. Yeah, because I think we're, we're quite a pretty looking fishmongers that fits nicely into streets. So I mean we get contact.

[A]

We're kind of saying when you come into our development or whatever.

[B]

Yeah. We get so many landlords all the time. I mean this, this.

[A]

Will they offer it to you for free?

[B]

We got offered a shop in Dulwich village, free for two years and help with fit out costs. You didn't fancy it and I really fancied it.

[A]

So why didn't you?

[B]

That's part of the problem.

[A]

So you're worried about overreaching it?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, somewhat.

[A]

And that's because you've had experience of that before.

[B]

Yeah. How to experience that before.

[A]

And so what, how does that happen? I mean, because this is interesting for entrepreneurs, listening about, pacing yourself and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Trying to structure your business in a way that's sustainable and doesn't overreach.

[B]

I think.

[A]

What was your experience?

[B]

I think with us it's. We've not got any bank loans. We're all funded by our profit. We use our profits to reinvest into the business. We've still, still not got any bank loans or any investment. So it's all.

[A]

You want to keep control of it.

[B]

We want to keep control of it. And I've, I've kind of hit a point now where if we do want to grow the. Those things may need to come into place to be able to do things properly. But yeah, I would say that, you know, if, if you spread yourself too thin then customers will notice and that's kind of what happened. I always, I always feel that our like businesses are like a living thing. They kind of, especially for me, this is how I get it anyway. You know, they take on a mind of their own, they take on a path of their own and they will. Every shop's different and they. A lot of the time, you know, the business would be screaming at you to change something. And in the early days I didn't know, I didn't know that because I hadn't run a business before. Really.

[A]

You. You didn't know that it would be screaming at you?

[B]

Yeah, I didn't, I didn't like to change something. You know, it just wasn't working. But I've, I thought that I could continue and you know, change it and it probably.

[A]

And you've done that successfully?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, well, well change. By change it, I mean closing the

[A]

store, which we did, which is a difficult decision.

[B]

Which is a difficult decision and. Yeah, but it probably should have happened probably two years prior to that.

[A]

Right. But you've still got two, so.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So we looked, we really took a look at what is successful and where the area will tell you if they want it, you know, and we, we. We don't apply any different methods to different stores. So if it's, if it's not working there, then it's not really us that needs to change.

[A]

So this is a really. I think it's a really interesting subject because if you built a business that's quite dependent on you and your service and your personality and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Your good name and reputation and you're there a lot, what's the next step? How do you grow it? Because if you have two shops you're not going to be in, you can't possibly be in both of them at the same time. So.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you need to find people you can trust to delegate to, I suppose.

[B]

Exactly, yeah. Which is the hardest part.

[A]

You find that. Yeah. Why is that so hard?

[B]

I really don't know. We. We've. I'll be honest, we've had some really awful people come through our shops that we've. And we've had a massive.

[A]

On your payroll.

[B]

Yeah. Massive struggles with. With certain people in the business and, and yeah, that. I think that in itself is. Is what holds me back. But like you say, you need to find these people if you want to

[A]

go out there somewhere.

[B]

I'm sure they are. You know, what we're doing. I don't want to jinx it, but at the moment.

[A]

Yeah, but maybe that's part of the journey. Just getting better at finding absolute. And judging people. Deciding who to hire and who not to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because a good hire makes a huge difference.

[B]

Yeah, definitely. And I. I've definitely got a bit of a sixth sense for it now. I know exactly what to look for.

[A]

And what do you look for?

[B]

I just think it's a personality is worth more than any skill.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean, I can speak for our business.

[A]

Because you can teach the skill.

[B]

Because you can teach the skill, but you can't teach people to have a really good personality or you can't teach to be engaged.

[A]

So someone once said to me, you can't teach someone to smile.

[B]

No, exactly. Yeah. And our, Our job is all about smiling.

[A]

Yeah. So that's it. So you. So their sort of mindset trumps the

[B]

skill set, which is definitely. Yeah.

[A]

So you've got to identify that when you're talking to or meeting them.

[B]

Definitely, yeah.

[A]

What you ask Them to identify.

[B]

I almost just. I ask them really basic questions because I. I start the interview normally by. By explaining to them that I understand that they have no fish experience or very little, because I want to put them at ease because I feel like they might be going into the unit. I don't want them.

[A]

Most people will not have fish experience.

[B]

Exactly. And then why they want to work with fish and what are their expectations around fish. And then I'm also really honest about what the job is. It's. It's not glamorous. It can be sometimes when you get, you know, celebrities coming in to shop with you or whatever.

[A]

But.

[B]

But in a nutshell, it's, you know, shoveling ice and, you know, a lot of heavy lifting. And it can be really rewarding to the right person because you're constantly learning, you know, there's. There's a lot of fish out there that you need to learn about and to fill it. And, and yeah, if you. If you get the right person who has an interest in wanting to learn a new skill.

[A]

Yeah. Who wants to become a. I suppose who wants to become a fishmonger in the full sense of.

[B]

Yeah, definitely. I mean, we. We had a guy come and work for us who worked in advertising for years and was on a really good salary and just decided that he didn't want to do that anymore and wanted to work with fish and obviously took a massive pay cut and.

[A]

But he convinced every minute he would be.

[B]

Yeah, he convinced me. And I was really hard on him, if I'm honest, because I was like, well, advertising.

[A]

Surely not.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I can imagine.

[B]

I'm jealous of your old job and you want to come and work for me.

[A]

So that's interesting. So this person really was looking for a career change, something.

[B]

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And he did amazing, you know, and worked for us for about a year and a half and has gone off to do his own thing and. And. Yeah.

[A]

Well, a lot of people are saying now that jobs that involve working with your hands are going to be the jobs of the future.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And you're offering that to people.

[B]

Yeah, definitely.

[A]

Fishmongers do work with their hands.

[B]

Yeah. And we've. We've modernized it a bit, you know, in terms of. We want. We want people to feel comfortable and, and we provide all of the right equipment and, and things like that that make people feel comfortable and the right training. Because of, like, like I mentioned already, when I started, they opened the door and went, go over there and do this. Whereas I know what not to do now.

[A]

Right. So you said something interesting earlier. You said that for customers it can be a bit intimidating going into a fishmongers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And I sort of identify with that because it, you know, there's a lot of information that you maybe. So how do you. How do you make it more sort of user friendly in that sense so that people come and have a chat?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do you do that?

[B]

One thing without is how we design our shops. So we've got. We're called Life of Fish, Fishmongers and pantry. So we have a huge pantry section that is just based up. Based of all. All different. Kind of like a dry goods section that is based.

[A]

So what do you sell out of there?

[B]

So we sell loads of olives and we sell truffle crisps and so that's like a deli. Yeah, like a deli side of it. And that will sit right in the window.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And the fish side of things is a bit pushed a bit further down with. With all the soaking wet taps and the guys in the aprons and things like that is a bit further.

[A]

But there's a bit of theater involved with as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, you said the guys in the aprons.

[B]

Yeah. For the right person, you want it.

[A]

Well, yeah, I like a bit of theater experience. It makes it more fun.

[B]

Yeah. But yeah, one thing we wanted to concentrate on is that if we are going to be a neighborhood, if we're going to be in neighborhoods, then, you know, people might. May not want to eat fish every single day, but we need to figure out a way to get them to shop with us every single day. So that was kind of how we. We came up with the idea of having a pantry section that, you know, people are going to a dinner party or something like that. They can come in. We sell these lovely Portuguese tinned fish and they've all got their own design on the front of the box. And we get so many people coming in to buy things like that for gifts and, and things.

[A]

So you have to be pretty clever in the sort of accessories.

[B]

Yeah. I think the days of just putting fish out and people coming to buy it is, is kind of shrinking a bit. I would say we have to make it a bit more exciting.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We sell, sell things like dumplings and things like that. Like, like Asian.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then all of the smoked salmon and things.

[A]

Right. So I've just been very fortunate in that I've just been to Japan.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, and I was told in Japan by someone who runs a cookery school that there are 55 different species of fish around Japan and they've become very accomplished at catching and eating them at the same. Yeah, barely. The Japanese eat something like 20 of the world's fish. But the interesting point he made is that, and I'm not sure if it's true, but there are only five species of fish around the coast of Norway or northern the North Atlantic. Is that in any way plausible?

[B]

I'm not sure. I've never heard that before, to be honest.

[A]

Can you think of many fish that we.

[B]

I mean, I've been to Norway a lot and they tend to only have around five or six.

[A]

Yeah, there's a lot of cod going on.

[B]

Yeah. So it's a lot of cod, it's a lot of haddock. Pretty sure they get a lot of mackerel there. Something called arctic char as well. They have there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I would. Yeah, I would say that it's probably more a desire of. What's more desirable to the customer is probably what they focus.

[A]

I think this might be something to do with the water of the sea.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, because that's obviously. Japan's obviously in the Pacific. It's different. Totally.

[B]

Yes. I mean, obviously it's a tough climate in Norway and freezing and. And I would imagine they've got a lot of deep sea fish there that they probably don't catch. But. Yeah, definitely loads of halibut comes from

[A]

Norway, so that'd be the other one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That does have a bearing on. On the sort of business, doesn't it?

[B]

I suppose, yeah.

[A]

Sort of options. Yeah.

[B]

They're probably well known for halibut, cod, haddock and everything.

[A]

So what. What's happening with. I mean, this big concern around climate change, sea temperatures, how's that affecting fish stocks? And I mean. I mean, I hope I'm asking the right person. It's probably unfair asking.

[B]

No, no, I mean, I know. I know a little bit about it. Yeah, I thought you might.

[A]

So that's.

[B]

I mean, I. What.

[A]

Can you share on that?

[B]

At Selfridges, I worked alongside the MO one. Probably one of the most amazing people I've met along my career. His name? Matt. His name's Matt Couchman. He's a. He was a sales manager, but he was also a fishery scientist and we still speak quite often now. And he just. He just knows everything. So he's always there. Yeah, so he's always there if I ever want to speak to anybody about things.

[A]

So what's his latest sort of take on things?

[B]

I've not actually asked him that. But I mean, my take on things is that it's just constantly changing. You know, for example, mackerel has now been rated 5. Whereas growing up, I mean, hearing stories of people go to corn or used to be able to just drop a hook in and a mackerel would jump on the end. So it is this ever changing thing around fish and sustainability.

[A]

It's important we get that right though, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah, definitely.

[A]

And I want the stocks to be depleted.

[B]

No, no. And that's why we, we pay a lot of attention to what the MCS are, are saying on their website and it's. The MCS is what, the Marine Conservation Society.

[A]

Right. So people should look at their website.

[B]

Yeah, they definitely, they've even got a really good app, a portal and you can just check, you can literally type in any fish and it will tell you. Yeah. As a customer. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, we should all do that.

[B]

Yeah, definitely. And these are the things that, you know, fishmongers are not telling their customers or educating them in that kind of way. I guess they don't want to have the conversation.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which is why they should come to life for fish.

[A]

Yeah. I was thinking that you're a responsible supplier.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean fish is protein ultimately, isn't it? And protein is good for the brain.

[B]

Yeah, definitely. Especially the omega 3 fish and.

[A]

Yeah. So which ones are those?

[B]

So that'll be like macros, mackerel, tuna.

[A]

Do you sell fish oil in your shop?

[B]

We don't know.

[A]

Maybe you should.

[B]

Yeah. I mean we have got a gifting section actually, which we thought, which sort of started off as a joke, but we sell sort of cards, the place to be or something like that. It's got a picture.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So. So yeah, people, people are interested in all sorts of things, so maybe.

[A]

Yeah, that was so good. So in, in the future it sounds to me like you're really focusing on making sure your, your fishmongers are fabulous.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But do you see potential in building the online offer? I think you said you delivered yourself. I mean, you'd have to get some other people to help you, I imagine.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And that, is that an upside that you see?

[B]

That's part of it. I mean, we've got a three year old daughter, so any plans that I make now I kind of have to be, you know, quite solid and a bit more responsible. Well, that's probably right, yeah. And I've taken a lot of risks in the last six years.

[A]

Right. So you want to consolidate would be your thing.

[B]

I do, yeah. But it depends what Day it is a couple of years. We recently we, we got off of the shop in Marylebone and it was just the most perfect location.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I definitely think there is scope there to, to maybe expand in that way as well.

[A]

Marybourne's a very popular shopping destination.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And we've sort of built a bit of a reputation around there by being in Selfridges.

[A]

So someone should give you a good offer for.

[B]

Yeah. Anybody listening?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that'd be good. Well, I, I, I, I sincerely. Thank you so much for coming in to talk to me, David. I, I always ask two questions at the end for my guests. They're the same questions. The first question you see on the wall here, because at Reed we love Mondays, is what is it that gets you up on a Monday morning very early? I think.

[B]

Well, I absolutely love Mondays because it's my only day off.

[A]

It's your only day off. So true.

[B]

As I mentioned, my daughter Pixie, she, she makes sure that I'm awake normally around six or half six.

[A]

That's a lie in for you.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But yeah, Monday is kind of my sort of rebuilding day, getting ready for the, for the week. So I love walking and I tend to take my daughter for like a four hour walk and while I'm on that walk I'll listen to a podcast or be, be with her while she's in the park and, and sort of recoup.

[A]

You have good family time.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that Monday is sort of dedicated to that.

[A]

I'm assuming she's in a buggy. No, she walks for four hours.

[B]

No. Oh no, she is in a buggy.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

We did have the conversation about her walking athlete.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's good. So, yeah, time together.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it's lovely time. And I'll be honest, I spend the whole time just sort of, of reflecting on the week before and I, I really do have this almost an obsession with, I wouldn't say I'm a perfectionist, but I really like to get things to a certain level of where I'm happy and I think that's what I've worked out rather than looking outside of what everyone else is doing. If I'm happy with how things have run the previous week, I'll have a, I'll have a good.

[A]

Because no one cares about it more than you.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And yeah, so sometimes I can spend too much time on that walk thinking about that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it's a good time to, yeah. Reflect and, and think about the things that say we've Spoken about today, about maybe expanding or focusing on the website.

[A]

Thinking about the future.

[B]

Yeah, It's a really good try. And just put my phone in my pocket and not. Not look at it and think about. Yeah. What's important now.

[A]

There's a lot of. A lot of evidence that suggests that we shouldn't look at phones for the first hour of the day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because our brain works differently for the whole day if we do that in a more creative way.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So I try to do that too.

[B]

Yeah. I definitely try and do it before bed. Yeah. It's funny you say that, actually, because a few years ago I. For years I slept with my phone under my pillow.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it just seems like such a strange thing to do now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I try and keep it on.

[A]

I don't put. Bring the phone into the bedroom anymore.

[B]

Yeah. Because even if you can see it. Yeah.

[A]

But then I have a fear of being like that guy who runs Heathrow Airport and someone. And they try and ring you in the middle of the night because of an emergency urgency and you sleep.

[B]

This is it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It can create a more of a. Yeah.

[A]

So there's a new anxiety around that, but I think it's good to try and create a bit of distance with it so you can think creatively.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then my last question for you, David, is from my interview book, why you 101 interview questions you'll never fear again is where do you see yourself in five years time?

[B]

I think doing the same thing, like I said, refining a lot. There is. There is part of me that, you know, wants to continue growing different areas of the business. The shop run. The shops run themselves now and sometimes I can have three days off a week, which I don't know what to do with myself. But. Yeah, so I do think there is.

[A]

Do you ever go out with a fisherman?

[B]

I have been a couple of times, yeah. But I get terrible seasick, which I don't like.

[A]

That's a shame.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's quite interesting.

[B]

I was in Sicily on a boat and I had to make them turn around and did you get me off because I felt terrible. Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But. But yeah, we're doing a lot of wholesale now. We're careful about what we do in wholesale, so we supply a chain of sushi restaurants. We also. We also supply, once a month or every other month, 500 lobsters. 500 pieces for an online meal kit company that was recently bought by Waitrose.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So. So, yeah, it's.

[A]

So. So you're doing retail, wholesale and also online.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you've got quite a lot going on.

[B]

Yeah, a lot. I need a few more vans and a few more people.

[A]

We can help you, but.

[B]

Yeah, but that's, that's the thing. I think we're, we're sort of, obviously I'm very driven and I'm careful about the risks that I take. And, but I think that, that in the, in answer to your question. Yeah, the next five years either looks like, like what it looks like now or getting some investment and really, really going for it.

[A]

So that would be a big decision for you.

[B]

Big decision. Yeah. I just want to be careful about like what happened before of diluting too much or something like that.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I wish you every success. Thanks so much for coming in to talk to me. I'm going to have a look at lifeof Fish.

[B]

Yeah. You know, what's by the fish and.

[A]

Yeah. And I've learned a lot this morning that. Thank you for very much.

[B]

Cheers. Thanks very much.

[A]

Thank you, David, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reed, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Life of Fish or Reed, you'll find all the links in the show notes. Thank you for listening and see you next time. Sam.