James Reed (4:45)

So I remember that office that you started working in, it no longer exists. It was a sort of shed near the railway station in Stratford. And this is obviously before the London Olympics, before Stratford got that huge investment to improve the area. It was a very deprived area. And I mean, you haven't really gone into detail, but this was a tough job. I mean, you were, you were seeing people, you would have had a caseload of people who were very disadvantaged and, and in some cases facing Real challenges and difficulties. Why did you like this so much?

Donna Murrell (5:17)

I'm interested in people and the. The stories that they have to tell and the situations that they find themselves in. And I, I'm. I like to have the opportunity to help in some way. I'm not sure how somebody in their early 20s, I, you know, how absolutely qualified I was. So, to be quite honest, wanted to. And I felt that. I thought that I was quite resourceful and I wanted to apply that to helping these people. And I learned an enormous amount from them. I mean, I remember some of the people that I was working with and some of the dreadful situations that they found themselves in. You know, you think about people who have been out of work for a long time, but I think I've heard you say before, there's every person who's unemployed is unemployed for a different reason. And, you know, I remember a lady who'd come to this country from China and she'd lost everything in a fire, and she was personally injured by that and had come through that by the time she came to me, but it was quite clear that she was suffering from ptsd. I remember somebody else who I was working with to help find work, and he'd been agoraphobic and hadn't left his house for many years and was now at the point where he was starting to take small steps, really, to sort of integrate back into wider society. And he was coming to me every two weeks to talk about getting a job, but it was quite clear to me that he was such a long way away from being able to go to work. So I learned that every person that's in front of you is at a different point in their journey, and the best way to help them is to help them take that next step. And ultimately you will get a certain number of people, help them into jobs and staying there, but you can help every single person that is in front of you in some way. And sometimes it's just about listening to them and being there. And. And I think people really appreciate being heard. You know, I. I really believe that being listened to is incredibly powerful.

James Reed (7:14)

We're delighted that you're listening to this episode. Hit the follow button so that we can continue to bring you the best business insight and actionable advice to help your business and or career. People listening won't necessarily know all about Reading Partnership to the extent that I do and you do, but can you give us a sense of that? I mean, what. What is it that Reading Partnership's? What's the scale of it? Just so people know the kind of organization you're running.

Donna Murrell (7:39)

So we're delivering public services in five markets now. We started in Employability, as we've talked about, helping unemployed people find work. Employability is a bit broader than that now, but it's still out.

James Reed (7:52)

So how many unemployed people have you helped find work?

Donna Murrell (7:55)

300,000, I think. There it is. Since the organisation started in 1998. So that's an enormous number. So employability is still our largest division, but we have sought to grow and diversify and sort of increase our impact, really. So we now operate Reed Wellbeing, so preventative health services, such as weight management, diabetes prevention, smoking cessation. We've got our Reed Citizen Services division, where we've got services helping people leaving the armed forces, for example, a range of different services, including youth programs there. Read Assessment is our invigilated training division. So if anyone has attempted to do their driving theory test, the chances are they would have done that in one of our test centers. So we've got test centers across two thirds of the UK and we've done more than six and a half million of those tests, which is incredible. And then our most recent division is Read Environment. So this is around skills training for people in green skills to help the UK achieve its net zero ambition. So that's our most recent venture. So we're helping literally millions of people a year every year across all of our services now.

James Reed (9:13)

I mean, that's a huge amount for you to get your head around as managing director. How do you do that?

Donna Murrell (9:19)

Not sure.

James Reed (9:21)

Come on, Donna, you obviously work really hard, but. But, yeah. And you. We're adding things. So we're now doing green engineers and retrofit specialists and I mean, you must be good at delegating.

Donna Murrell (9:34)

Yeah. So having a really two things. One, I've grown with the company as all of that growth has taken place. Now, that really helps because you're not stepping into this very sort of complex environment. And I'm always really impressed by people who do join the organization and sort of grapple with that, that level of complexity, but yet it is about having a really, really talented team of people around you. So the board, the senior leadership team, which is a team of sort of 60 odd people and they are. We simply wouldn't achieve the results that we do without that talented team. They are. Yeah, I'm very proud of them, Very impressed by them, I have to say.

James Reed (10:12)

So you put a lot of time and focus into selecting your team, I'm thinking, and you look for what you call an inclusive team. Could you just summarize that just for the benefit of people listening?

Donna Murrell (10:27)

Inclusive specifically?

James Reed (10:29)

Well, just. You said you earlier that you wanted diversity of all sorts. I mean, how does that work now as managing director? What are you bringing people from outside the organization as well as inside promoting? So how do you make sure you have that diversity range of abilities in the team?

Donna Murrell (10:47)

We have to measure it. First of all.

James Reed (10:49)

How do you make sure that you're not the only woman on the board?

Donna Murrell (10:53)

Yeah, absolutely. So we measure this at every level within the organization. So we'll look at sort of women in leadership, women in management positions, and we do the same across our other areas of focus from a diversity perspective. So we measure ethnicity, for example.

James Reed (11:12)

So it's important to see how the organization is shaped overall and how people are progressing up through it.

Donna Murrell (11:16)

Yes.

James Reed (11:17)

Because that will give you the. The diversity you need at the top.

Donna Murrell (11:21)

Yes. And we need to make sure that everybody at every level has that opportunity to progress and really focus on that, make sure that we've got the right mix at every layer, if you like, in the hierarchy.

James Reed (11:33)

Because I'm sure people want to work in an organization that has lots of opportunities for them. And that's what you've. You've shown yourself. You've been with us 20 years because you've been able to do all these different things. Partly.

Donna Murrell (11:44)

Well, I think that's exactly what people want, isn't it? And, you know, I'm working with other people in the senior leadership team that started in this organization, as, you know, on the shop floor. And what I really want is, you know, for what's happened to me, it's happened to them. I want to see plenty of other people doing exactly that journey. I think promoting from within, as you talked about earlier, is really very powerful, I think. And you know, in the way that I just described about me, you get people that can understand the organization in such a sort of profound way from doing that. It's helpful. It is important not to just exclusively do that, though. I mean, it might be that if you're diversifying into a different market, you might need somebody who's got experience that you simply don't have. And it's. If you're trying to do something that you've never done before, as we've discovered, it's pretty handy to have someone around that can help you learn some of the lessons more quickly. Yeah. But generally speaking, we want to create opportunities for people in the company. I would say.

James Reed (12:47)

Is there anything else you'd like to Add in terms of your own experience, that would be helpful to others.

Donna Murrell (12:53)

Yeah, there is actually one thing, and that is, I think it's very basically, I would like to say to people, don't hold yourself back. Because we talked a lot about sort of the external environment and barriers that might be in people's way. But actually, I think for most people, the biggest kind of blocker for their success is that they might not feel ready or able to take on a new responsibility. And that feeling, I think, you know, people talk about it as being imposter syndrome or whatever, but that feeling can be quite powerful for people. And all I would say is, you know, you might think, oh, is this really me? Am I really right for this? But I think it's really important to back yourself and. And give it a go. And that would be my message to people. Don't let fear of failure or worrying that you're not 100% the right fit for something stop you from giving it a try. Because I believe in, you know, that voice inside you that might say to you that you can't do something. You can silence it pretty quickly. I think if you just get stuck in. So that would be my message to people.

James Reed (13:57)

There's a wonderful quote I read somewhere. The more you listen, the more the universe reveals itself to you. And I think listening is, I would agree, very important in all sorts of ways. But you were obviously good at this job.

Donna Murrell (14:10)

I wasn't first.

James Reed (14:13)

So. Yeah. What did it take to be successful from an advisor's perspective? Listening clearly. But how did you. Obviously got lots of people into work.

Donna Murrell (14:23)

Yes. I mean, we work in a targeted environment. We deliver services that are measured. We have to measure how effective they are. And so that was measured in terms of the number of people that each individual supports to work. And that's right, that services, the quality of services are measured in that way. I was working with people that had done this job for quite a long time, and so I made it my business to learn from them and understand some of their techniques, particularly when it came to working with employers, helping employers to understand the benefits of helping people into jobs who'd not been working for a period of time, for example. I think for me, the central point as an advisor, though, is building trust with the person that you are working with and helping them to understand that you've got shared goals. And once I learned that, learned some of the sort of practical techniques of the people around me. Sorry about that. Some of the practical techniques of the people around me. I think when you pull Those things together, then all of a sudden it sort of clicks. Your own method of doing that job sort of clicks.

James Reed (15:32)

I mean there'll be employers listening. You made an interesting point about why they should consider taking on people who've been out of work for periods of time. What would be your message to them?

Donna Murrell (15:44)

People who've been unemployed for a period of time are often unemployed for a long time because it's so difficult to convince an employer to take them on. It's no reflection at all on their skills or ability or mindset and it's sort of a bit self fulfilling. The longer it goes on, the harder it is for them. And I think the experience of being unemployed makes somebody, it should make somebody from the point of view of an employer eminently more employable because they will be absolutely determined to do their best and retain that job with you. It's the right person to give an.

James Reed (16:17)

Opportunity to because that job is so much more valuable to them that they really appreciate it, they want to hold on to it and they're likely to.

Donna Murrell (16:24)

Stay and they've experienced the difficulty of being out of.

James Reed (16:27)

That's very interesting because I think a lot of people don't see that, but you saw that and you, you placed your trust in the people you were working with and you were able to help them progress.

Donna Murrell (16:37)

Not everyone, but the idea is to help somebody get closer to a goal, always to be moving forward.

James Reed (16:44)

So how did you progress from here? So what happened next?

Donna Murrell (16:47)

So I decided that after two and a half years in that job that I would like to think about managing a team of people that job. So you know, full disclosure, I wasn't as an advisor thinking, you know, I want to be the MD one day. That was never in my mind at all.

James Reed (17:04)

So you thought management would be a good thing to do next?

Donna Murrell (17:07)

Let me get into a management job and see if I can help other people again, it's that kind of helping people theme, if I can help my team to be successful. And so I moved into what was called a business manager role. Managing a branch of people.

James Reed (17:21)

How many people would that be?

Donna Murrell (17:23)

It, it ranged because I did several different business manager roles but my teams varied from sort of 6, 7 to 13.

James Reed (17:30)

It's a bit like a sergeant in the military. Yeah. So what did you learn doing that?

Donna Murrell (17:36)

Well, managing people is a bit of an art form, isn't it? And you never, you're never really fully accomplished as a manager. I don't think it's, again, it's something that you're, you're Constantly learning. I learned that the, the importance of having the right people around you. You're only really as successful because you've got, you're surrounded by really good people. And I learned a lot about the importance of having a diverse team in all ways, all forms of diversity.

James Reed (18:04)

What did so explain that? What did you.

Donna Murrell (18:06)

What so diverse teams in terms of every, you know, every sense, so gender, ethnicity, age, psychological type, all of that. If you've particularly working in East London. I ended up working with very diverse teams and I think you get the very best of talent and ideas if you've got a group of people who work together but come at things from very different angles and perspectives. And I think if you can combine all of those things, you definitely get to better outcomes working together. And I learned that and I also learned early on that creating a safe environment for people is massively important for them to be able to do well. So, you know, we worked in a target orientated environment, as I've already said. But the last thing that you want to do as a manager is create a sort of sense of fear about failure in that regard. So it's about realizing that you're collectively aiming for targets and outcomes, but doing so in such a way that people don't feel fearful of failure. And that's something that I've sort of tried to carry through every stage really of my career.

James Reed (19:14)

How do you do that? That's a fine art, isn't it?

Donna Murrell (19:16)

Yeah, it's not particularly easy. But I think first of all choose people that you've got confident that you feel that you can place your confidence and trust in and you take responsibility yourself when things don't go well and demonstrate to your people that if things go wrong, you're going to be standing there next to them and help them improve and develop and do better next time. And I think if you can do that, you get, you build trust with people and ultimately you get better results in the long term.

James Reed (19:51)

So listening to you, you're sort of acquiring some knowledge and skills as you progress. But your, your passion for sort of helping people and working with people was the, the core and the starting point. And then you're accumulating this knowledge from your jobs. So you, you became a manager and then your management roles became larger and then you became operations director, which is, that's taking accountability for the whole operation. That's a big step up. How did that talk me through that and how you felt about that, how.

Donna Murrell (20:21)

That happened, that's quite a big mindset shift at that Point, I would say there's two really big mindset shifts for me in my journey. That was one and the next was actually stepping into it and which perhaps.

James Reed (20:30)

We talk a bit, we'll come to that next. So you move from manager, you're running successful groups of people, then you're becoming operations, becoming a director, I suppose. So you've gone from advisor to manager now director.

Donna Murrell (20:43)

So that was an interesting move. So that was in 2014. At the point that I joined the board, I was the only woman on the board and I was the youngest person on the board as well. And I was sort of mentally sort of grappling with the idea that you are responsible in quite a different way as a director, aren't you? So everything really that happens in, in the company in some way you have oversight and responsibility for. So you know, you've got your functional responsibility in terms of my case, operations. But then there's the, the whole organization from every perspective. And yeah, that's quite a big, a big change I would say, in terms of, of how I thought about my job. What I would say is one of the things that helps you to progress in a company, I think is being able to see the company as a whole organization and not just yourself in a department within it. And I think that that really comes to the fore when you step into a board role because you've got those sort of two focuses, if you like.

James Reed (21:42)

But how many people were you responsible for as operations director at that time?

Donna Murrell (21:46)

I think, well, it's grown considerably during that 10 year period. So it's, I think at the lowest point we were a team of about 500. And then at the, when I was operations director at the peak, which we were still at now, it was about 2,300.

James Reed (22:02)

So the company's grown hugely after you over your period as a director. So then you said, you know, the next step or the big change was becoming managing director. What's the big change from operations to managing director? Explain that.

Donna Murrell (22:17)

When you're on the board as an operations director, clearly you've, you know, you're managing a large section of the business and you've got a large responsibility in terms of the, you know, the performance of the business and you're contributing to the conversation around strategy and so you're very much at the table. But as managing director, essentially you're owning that to a much greater extent. So working with a team of people across all different functions. So the finance director, business development, the people, teams, all of this then becomes your responsibility and I think pulling that together and being able to articulate a coherent strategy, I think is a much different responsibility from the operations director job that I'd had before. And I knew that to be the case when I walked into the job and then very shortly after taking it on was sort of moved straight into our strategy process. So it gave me the opportunity to sort of get stuck straight into that.

James Reed (23:21)

So strategy is really at the forefront, you know, when you're managing director in a way that it wasn't perhaps before.

Donna Murrell (23:26)

Yeah.

James Reed (23:27)

I'll just add that's a new skill though, isn't it? You have to acquire.

Donna Murrell (23:30)

It is. And I think, you know, sometimes strategy feels a bit abstract. Right. But for me it's about thinking further ahead, essentially. So, you know, as operations director, I'm thinking about business results in the more immediate short media. As managing director, I'm thinking about, well, we know, what are we doing in three, five years time and that's good.

James Reed (23:52)

I'm hoping you're thinking about that. Someone's got to. That's what I'm thinking about as well.

Donna Murrell (23:57)

Yeah. So that's, that's quite a big shift and you'd spend much, much more of your time in that sort of space, if you like.

James Reed (24:07)

And that takes imagination, though.

Donna Murrell (24:10)

Yeah, it does, it does.

James Reed (24:12)

Different skill again, but it's not, you.

Donna Murrell (24:14)

Know, you're not, thank goodness, you're not doing it all by yourself. There's lots of really talented people around. And the other point I'd like to make about that is you're looking externally a lot more. So you're, you know, I find myself needing to know what's going on, you know, politically, for example, much more about our, our customers, strategy, competitors, other stakeholders.

James Reed (24:37)

So, yeah, employers and other organizations, what they're doing, so on, on that sort of journey or personal journey from advisor to managing director, I imagine you had to compete for jobs. So, you know, how, how if, if you're thinking of a young person in their 20s, how do you get noticed? How, how do you make yourself the, the best candidate in those situations? What, what should people be trying to take from your, your journey that they can use on their own?

Donna Murrell (25:09)

Well, I think the first thing to do is to be really good at the job that you've got. First of all, you know, aim to be the best. And I don't mean best in a competitive way with others, I mean the best that you can be get, you know, get good results. I think the second thing is I'm going to choose my words carefully here. Work for your manager, it's really important to understand your manager's priorities, help them to be successful, because you know, they've got aims and objectives, obviously that help the business itself to be successful. So work for your manager and your manager can end up being your biggest ally if you can help them to achieve, understand the wider context, know about the company, know about what it is that the overall organization is trying to achieve. Don't just think about your own department or business unit. Try to understand more broadly and within that, know which role you want your next job to be. That's what I always did. As I mentioned to you earlier, I wasn't sort of, it wasn't working backwards from md. I was thinking, right, you know, what's, what's next for me? And even if that job's not available right now, get yourself ready for it. Think, okay, talk to people, build your network, understand what other skills, the knowledge that you need and have a, have a plan for that. And in terms of getting yourself noticed, I think I notice people who get things done. That sounds a bit basic, but I notice problem solvers. I notice people who make difficult things easy rather than the opposite. Sure.

James Reed (26:44)

And they're actually quite rare. I mean, lots of people present problems, not so many come with solutions.

Donna Murrell (26:50)

That's right. And I think that can do attitude and resourcefulness and really aligning yourself. People. People stand out to me when they really align themselves with what the business is trying to achieve. And, you know, not everybody will agree with me, but I'm not necessarily looking for people who are hugely, personally ambitious. I want people who are there because they want to make the company success, succeed. That's what I've always wanted. It might be different in different companies. Different leaders might want different things, but that's what I want. I want people that want to work as a team and make that. Make the company the best that it can possibly be. And if I see that in people, then, you know, they can come on a nice journey, I think.

James Reed (27:33)

Yeah. And it's important, I think, for companies to try and create opportunities for people. You know, at Reed, we like to promote people from within whenever possible. And you're a good example of that. But, you know, the people need to be on the journey as well.

Donna Murrell (27:46)

They do. And you achieve personal success by being on that journey. That's, that's kind of the, the point.

James Reed (27:54)

From my perspective, when do you feel, you know, when you're in a job that it's the right moment to move on? Maybe it's to move into A new role or move, how do you get, how do you time that correctly? You know, move, move up or move out or in a career, you know, when.

Donna Murrell (28:10)

I'm not sure there is a straightforward answer to that. I mean, I'm obviously someone who's built a career staying in the same place and I can honestly say that at any point that I've really felt, perhaps I'm not enjoying this role as much as I could do, or I'm not sure if I can really see where the next opportunity is coming from, something has opened up and happened and caused me to stay. You know, that's, it's, it's happened consistently throughout my time and I think that's credit to the company for the fact that those opportunities have been created and have come up. But, you know, it's equally possible, isn't it, to experience that feeling that I did and decide to move on and go somewhere else. I would say clearly I would advocate staying if you're confident that you're in a good company. There are risks to moving, of course, you know, you might not choose well, but it's an internal thing only, you know, you as an individual can know if you're at the point where you're perhaps, you know, not feeling as motivated every day as you need to be. And I think it is really important to enjoy what you're doing on a daily basis. You know, that's.

James Reed (29:15)

Yeah, so do I. If we now sort of step out of the individual who wants to progress his head and think about managers who want to spot talent and sort of, you know, if you want to bring people on in your organization and look for people. And you sort of half answered this. I mean, you're obviously looking for a can do approach, but what other advice would you give to managers in terms of, I mean, do you believe in succession plans? Do you believe in, you know, flagging people as fast track these sort of things that some companies do, or do you think it, it's a different approach?

Donna Murrell (29:55)

Yes, I think it can help be helpful. It's. That's quite difficult to do because people's talent emerges at different times. So you, I think you just need to make sure you're flexible. But there will always inevitably be people that quite clearly have potential and you want to create opportunity for them quite, quite obviously. And I think, well, that's hard to.

James Reed (30:18)

Spot in a company of 2, 300 people, isn't it?

Donna Murrell (30:21)

Yeah, it is.

James Reed (30:21)

And they're all over the place. You don't know. I mean, it gets harder. I Find as a business gets bigger, you know, when you're starting out as an entrepreneur and you've got 10 people in a room and you know everyone personally, you can sort of see. But how do you do it as a. As it gets bigger, how does that work?

Donna Murrell (30:36)

Well, I think you do need to make sure that you're talking to people at all levels, with your management team, all levels, about the importance of that. You need to create opportunity, I suppose, two ways create opportunities for people to get involved in things beyond their jobs. So projects. Second opportunities, things that people can volunteer or for or be nominated for, that gets them sort of the exposure and they can be noticed. The other thing, I think, as a leader, is that you just need to create as many opportunities as you can to interact with your people.

James Reed (31:08)

So what sort of opportunities do you think you are?

Donna Murrell (31:10)

So you might want to. We're not only just going and seeing what they're doing and talking to them, but we, for example, run focus groups and we regularly create opportunities for us as a team of directors, to engage with people in the organisation, to ask their ideas, their feedback.

James Reed (31:26)

How does a focus group work?

Donna Murrell (31:28)

So, for example, in January, the directors all went on visits across the whole country, brought together groups of people to ask them questions, to inform our strategy. So we would ask them things around. How can we accelerate performance? What can we do to make this a better place to work? A range of different questions and send them to people in advance and then have a conversation, engage people. And from that you can. You can start to pick out where or meet people who are very curious and clearly have put thought into things and come up with good ideas.

James Reed (32:03)

So that has a double benefit, in a sense, because you're spotting people who are coming forward and suggesting things and have ideas and showing potential. But you're also acquiring lots of new ideas from the strategy.

Donna Murrell (32:16)

Well, absolutely.

James Reed (32:17)

So sort of getting out there is a good thing for other businesses to really build into their calendar.

Donna Murrell (32:24)

Well, look, business leaders, we can't possibly know the right way forward on every point from the boardroom. It's absurd to think that, in a.

James Reed (32:33)

Way, I think you've developed, you know, since your time in operations and now as managing director, a very active culture of continuous improvement.

Donna Murrell (32:41)

Yes, absolutely.

James Reed (32:43)

And that has informed the strategy and that also helps surface future leaders, you would say. So what should someone who's thinking about this? How would you start on that continuous improvement track, if that's something you want to do?

Donna Murrell (32:58)

For me, continuous improvement starts with an attitude, with a mindset. I mean, right at the very beginning. Because you can't continuously improve if you can't bear the thought of ever being wrong. I mean, you need to be able to accept.

James Reed (33:12)

Yeah, no, that's. That's an important starting point, really is.

Donna Murrell (33:15)

And you'd be surprised how many people find it hard to get past that point, that place. You know, if you want to do well, you have to look in the mirror and think, oh, I didn't do that particularly well this time. Next time it's going to be better. And then you take. You apply that principle to the. To the whole organization, which is, we can make the service better. You know, we can get better results.

James Reed (33:35)

And I was lucky enough years and years ago to go to Harvard Business School. And on the last day, after spending a lot of money and a lot of effort and a lot of time on this course for the MBA, our finest professor said to us, 50% of what you've learned here will be wrong. And we don't know what 50% it is. And in a way, that was the best lesson because it makes you continuously curious as you go out into the world thinking, well, I think this is right, but am I wrong? And I think that's so important that, you know, good ideas come from everywhere and everyone. And what you're doing today might not be the right thing, and it might be wrong, and you can continuously improve it. And I think you've found that through your own work.

Donna Murrell (34:17)

Yes. Yeah. Well, I found it through personal experience, too. As an individual, you know, you can't get better at something unless you really identify where.

James Reed (34:26)

Why is that a blockage for so many people, do you think?

Donna Murrell (34:29)

Some sort of. Maybe.

James Reed (34:32)

Is it a confidence thing?

Donna Murrell (34:33)

Confidence is one side of it. I think people might be. There's a cultural point, I think, you know, you have to create a culture where it's okay to be wrong. People don't feel frightened to say, I've not done this terribly well. And we can say, okay, all right.

James Reed (34:49)

Because you're looking around the own business and all sorts of walks of life. Things aren't run as well as they could be. I mean, it should be, you know, obvious that things are going wrong in all sorts of places.

Donna Murrell (34:59)

Yeah. I mean, focus on the solution, focus on the answer. And then, you know, we. You can always lift the trains afterwards and think what happened here? But, you know, focus on the solution, get the thing done. And then we can. Then we can, you know, worry about what caused problems later. I think it's. It's better that can do attitude, do.

James Reed (35:18)

You think that's sometimes what happens. People are fixated on what caused this or who was at fault rather than let's get it fixed and move on.

Donna Murrell (35:24)

Yes, I think that is the case.

James Reed (35:26)

Yeah.

Donna Murrell (35:27)

And I think that comes from a, that's a cultural problem in the sense that people are worried about the consequences for them as an individual.

James Reed (35:35)

Yes.

Donna Murrell (35:35)

Whereas what's really important is the consequences for the overall, for the company getting things right and making sure and for.

James Reed (35:41)

The customer and for the people experiencing the service. We want to, I think for them because things, I mean, I think it's, it's totally human. Is it, we all know that things go wrong and it's how people respond to that that's so important in my experience.

Donna Murrell (35:57)

Yes. And you know, that ultimately helps you to be more successful more quickly, you know, so I read a book and it said, it's called Being Wrong by Karen Schultz. I really liked it, it was excellent. And she said the great thing about acknowledging when you're wrong is that you can more quickly start being right. I liked this piece of advice.

James Reed (36:17)

Yeah.

Donna Murrell (36:17)

You know, just accept it, it, get on with it. And, and I don't, wouldn't ever want for someone to be worried about coming to me, for example, and saying we've made a mistake.

James Reed (36:27)

That's something I've observed about you over the years is you actually read a lot and you've been self taught in that sense. So your curiosity about how to run things and how to run a company and be in business and you read a lot of things beyond business. I know. So you, I think I'm hearing that you would be recommending others to do the same.

Donna Murrell (36:48)

Yeah, absolutely. You know that curiosity point that we spoke about earlier, there is so much material available so readily. You know, it's, I mean, I just don't have time to read all of the things I want to read. Frankly, it's which disappoints me.

James Reed (37:04)

But you've hopefully got many years ahead of you.

Donna Murrell (37:07)

Not enough hours in the day.

James Reed (37:09)

No, no, I know how that feels. But you know, and so it's important to get good advice about what to read or recommendations.

Donna Murrell (37:14)

But that curiosity, you know, I love it when people come to me and say, oh, I've had this idea about this and that's, you know, nine times out of ten we'll talk it through and think, you know, perhaps that's not quite going to work, but the one time out of 10 that we can make it work, it can be quite transformational. And I really like people who have ideas in that way. Normally it's because they're foraging around, reading, looking at things, thinking about what other businesses are doing, listening to people on podcasts, for example. And I really like that.

James Reed (37:48)

Hi, I hope you're enjoying this episode of All About Business. If you're feeling stuck in your career and want to start loving Mondays, sign up for our free careers course, Life's Work, hosted by Steph and myself. It's jam packed with the tools and resources you need to make your next career move. Join for free today. The link is in the show notes. In my experience, ideas come from all over the place, don't they? And something you might have. Someone might be saying something on a podcast you think that's interesting. I wonder if I can apply that where I work. And then you connect it with another idea. And so having a sort of continual ferment of ideas is important. I mean, we like to say in our family we should have a new idea every day. So that's the sort of mantra of ours. And this all helps, doesn't it? It's exposed to more things.

Donna Murrell (38:36)

It's quite difficult to have a good idea every day.

James Reed (38:38)

I would say we don't say good one, just an idea. We don't know whether sometimes you don't know whether an idea is a good one for many, many years. So, you know, that's, that's so you have to give them time sometimes and it might be just somewhere new to go for lunch. I mean, it doesn't have to be a groundbreaking idea. So you mentioned earlier when you became the operations director, Donna, that you were the only woman on the board and the youngest person on the board. That doesn't reflect well on me back in 2014 because I believe I was the chairman of the board back then. And we should have had a more diverse board, I'm pleased to say. It's become more diverse. You have some views, I know, on women in leadership and leadership, but I'd like you to share because I think they're interesting.

Donna Murrell (39:24)

There were women on the group board at that point. James, I was talking about the board of Reading Partners.

James Reed (39:27)

I know you were. No, but on the board you joined, we were the only woman. And, you know, we, we seek to be, you know, inclusive. Obviously, that's very important to us and we have objectives around women in leadership and management, which we've made good progress on over that decade. But there's always, we can always do better in the spirit of what we were saying earlier. And we want to do better, but you're an exemplar. So talk me through your thoughts on this.

Donna Murrell (39:53)

Well, look, the first thing that I want to say, I think it's a really important caveat to make when you get into conversations about this, that I've got very, very good relationships with lots of men at work and outside of work. And anything that I'm about to say is not intended to offend any single individual man. But I think we do have to.

James Reed (40:11)

Don't hold back, Donna. I think you say what you're experiencing.

Donna Murrell (40:15)

You have to sometimes sort of confront these things. Now, you know, women in leadership, obviously women face some structural, let's say sort of logistic, even challenges. So women who choose to have a family and find it difficult, obviously in salary and progression terms to recover from a break, often women are more likely to be than men part time workers and that can affect their progression at work. And so there definitely are these sort of structural problems that thankfully businesses are waking up to and are seeking to address, which I think is fantastic. But let's be really honest, the problem isn't a structural one. The problem is a historic one relating to, you know, over centuries and centuries, how people have felt about women. And it's that bias against women that holds women back, principally in the workplace because there are stereotypes about women and whether or not women should be in leadership roles or what they, you know, what they shouldn't, shouldn't be doing that more or less consciously. People still carry around in their minds when they're making hiring decisions or promoting decisions. And I think that's when we talk about the, you know, women in leadership, it's that, that we need to think about. I have to say my experience at Reid has been absolutely brilliant. You know, I've not, I don't feel like I've ever been in situations within, you know, working for the company where I felt that I've been treated in a sexist way. There have been things that have happened when I've been dealing with clients or, you know, moments at work where I felt perhaps some unconscious bias has crept in. But I don't feel like there's ever been a, you know, actual barriers to me. But there are in plenty of companies and different sectors. If you think about women in, you know, science and technology, for example, it's, you know, really quite a different experience perhaps from the one that I've had. And I think, all I would say is I think it's really important to recognize that whilst we've made massive improvements in this, the problem hasn't gone away. And I don't. I'm not somebody who goes around talking about this very often. You've probably noticed.

James Reed (42:18)

I think I have noticed, but that's why I wanted to hear what. I wanted to hear what you thought.

Donna Murrell (42:22)

But I think it is when I talk to a lot of men or if I ever do, men are surprised about this and that that is frankly male privilege because men don't.

James Reed (42:35)

Haven't had the experience.

Donna Murrell (42:37)

Yeah. And so I think it's really important when women want to progress and move into leadership roles that they recognize that they will come up against certain behaviors and they have a decision to make about whether to ignore it or to choose to educate. But one thing I would say is don't ever let it put you off. So you know, however you choose to react, just don't let it put you off. Don't ever let it make you feel that you shouldn't be in the room. Because it's that self deselection. I think that is. Is that silent self.

James Reed (43:12)

And do you see that, do you see that yourself with women in our business or might be deselecting? We have to.

Donna Murrell (43:18)

I think you have to make sure.

James Reed (43:20)

Address that.

Donna Murrell (43:21)

I'm not sure if women are even necessarily completely conscious when that they do that. I think it just manifests itself as like a sort of imposter syndrome. You know, I shouldn't be here, I shouldn't be in this room or in this group. And I think it's just around. It just requires a little bit of determination. I mean if you. It's quite unfortunately common if you turn up at a meeting with a male colleague that the people that you meet might assume that that person is more senior than you because he's a man.

James Reed (43:53)

So this happens to you now.

Donna Murrell (43:55)

Yeah.

James Reed (43:55)

So you go and visit someone company and you're with a man and they.

Donna Murrell (44:00)

Oh yeah. They'll automatically think he's more seen than you.

James Reed (44:03)

And actually it's the other way around.

Donna Murrell (44:04)

Yeah. And so you've got a choice to make in that instance. My choice is always to just explain. Actually this is the hierarchy.

James Reed (44:11)

That guy works for me.

Donna Murrell (44:12)

Yeah. It looks a bit awkward, isn't it? You've got the person next to you who's my coach.

James Reed (44:16)

Is that why you didn't work out? It's a good deal.

Donna Murrell (44:19)

So it can be a little bit strange. Or in fact, I've been out to an external meeting with a previous manager of mine and you know, on more than one occasion people assume that I was his assistant. You know, it's which is, you know, fine, but I don't see why.

James Reed (44:36)

These are something. Yeah, well. Well, that's the old adage, isn't it? Assume makes an ass out of you and me. I mean, it's sort of exactly that in those cases. Yeah. So this is really embedded, is what you're saying.

Donna Murrell (44:47)

It is.

James Reed (44:48)

And the fact that we all need to be more aware of it. It's clearly your message. We'll all do a better job if we are more aware of it.

Donna Murrell (44:55)

That's it. And, you know, it's more or less subtle and probably not deliberate, ingrained from centuries of this stereotyping of what women, you know, are, ought to be. And, you know, I'm reiterate, I've had a really good experience at Reed.

James Reed (45:12)

There's an experience that I'm. I've observed where in a meeting, a board meeting, a woman suggests something or comes up with an idea and it's sort of hardly acknowledged. And then one of the men sitting around the table somewhat later said something extremely similar. You've seen that. I've seen that. So what's that about? And how can. What's should you say? Actually, I just said that. Is that. Is that the right.

Donna Murrell (45:36)

I think that is the right answer.

James Reed (45:37)

Oh, yeah. And I think a chair of a meeting should say. Yeah, actually, Donna said that 10 minutes ago. Yeah. So I think anyone running a meeting should be super alert.

Donna Murrell (45:47)

Yeah, they should. Making sure that every voice is heard. And this goes right back to that diversity conversation that we were having about making sure that you've got that diversity of input and a good chair or a good manager leader will pull that together to help you get to the. To the right outcome. You know, being spoken over is the other thing.

James Reed (46:05)

Yeah. There's an old. I think it's a Native American saying that I remember hearing years ago. I've always liked a hollow gourd makes the loudest sound. So, you know, you don't want to necessarily give the floor to the loudest person. You certainly don't actually. You want to make sure every voice that's right. It's heard. If you're running a meeting, I think.

Donna Murrell (46:24)

That is the answer, isn't it? That from a diversity perspective, I've certainly know I've struggled quite literally in the sense I have got quite a quiet voice and have to find myself projecting quite a lot, which can be a little bit exhausting. So it's always quite refreshing when you're in a meeting and you know that the person leading the group is Wanting to hear from you. Yeah.

James Reed (46:46)

Sometimes I think it's my wife Nicola's a teacher and she's taught in some pretty rough and rowdy schools, and she's only five foot three. And I said, how do you get control of the class? And she said, sometimes I'd go up to the front of the room and I just stand there and I don't say anything. And I wait. And after sometimes three or four minutes, they all go quiet because they become curious as to what you're going to do, what you're going to say. I think this is a very good technique. And I think silence sometimes is extremely powerful too. You know, if you're. If you're getting or seeking attention. But obviously in the context of a group, you need to make sure everyone has a voice. And I think we all have a duty to listen as well.

Donna Murrell (47:32)

I agree. And to the point about, you know, the person speaking the loudest, I think if you've got good ideas and you're prepared to take your opportunities to state them, I don't think that these things could.

James Reed (47:49)

So don't be disc. Your messages. Don't be discouraged. If you're not loud and sort of extrovert, you still have an important contribution.

Donna Murrell (47:56)

Yes. Yeah. And don't try to be what you're not. You know, I'm not a big loud extrovert, and if I tried to be one, it would be ridiculous, frankly. So, you know, I just. I really would have advocated being authentic. You know, the person that I am at work is the same person that's talking to you now. And it's really important to me that. That people see authenticity. I think better leaders are authentic. And so I don't try and mold myself into anyone else. It's.

James Reed (48:25)

You're true to yourself.

Donna Murrell (48:26)

Yeah.

James Reed (48:26)

And what I've observed, you know, that passion you had when you started all those years ago for working with people and helping people, regression is. Is every bit as bright and powerful, if not more so now. I mean, you. You've really carried that forward. Is that your prime motivation?

Donna Murrell (48:42)

Yeah, it is. It just. It's grown, you know, it was down to individuals, you know, helping individuals in that first instance. Then it became teams, and, you know, now it's become helping the organization to succeed and the impact that we have, you know, across all of our services and all the people that we deliver the service too.

James Reed (49:00)

So, Donna, if we think about individuals who are sort of immersed in a job and they. They want to progress, they're thinking about their next move, how might they prepare themselves most effectively, you know, with the six month, three years, five years sort of time frames in mind. Because these are often what people are asked in appraisals and things.

Donna Murrell (49:20)

Yes. Or in a job interview. You might be asked, you know, where do you see yourself in 5 years time?

James Reed (49:24)

Might be asked that. Yes.

Donna Murrell (49:26)

Okay. I think five years is quite long. Reflecting on this just now, you know, it's a, it's a bit of a historical question, isn't it? Not in the context of a job interview. I mean, in a job appraisal, five years feels quite long in modern business. So perhaps we, you know, people should be thinking about a shorter time frame that six months, perhaps three years. I think people can benefit from recognizing that progression is not all about your next promotion. You can progress in the job that you've got and you can get yourself ready for that next promotion. So I advocate treating yourself as a project. So identify the skills and experiences that you think you want to obtain in order to progress in order to get yourself closer to that next job when it comes along. And you can find various ways of gaining those skills. You can shadow people, you can look for second opportunities. You can join projects that sit alongside your current job. You know, our business, certainly, but I imagine that most businesses provide those sorts of opportunities. So if you know what it is that you want to do, you can tick those things off on your plan. And then when the next role comes along, you can be ready for it. It's not always possible in a company to know exactly what or where your next move is going to be. But making sure that you're continuously developing and acquiring skills along the way is important, I think.

James Reed (50:50)

Yeah. Where preparation meets opportunity, that's what people call luck, isn't it? So that's sort of. But that's what you're saying. And, and you can't know because business is changing so fast. So position yourself as someone who's improving and adaptable.

Donna Murrell (51:06)

Well, I wasn't expecting to be managing director, you know, just over a year ago, so. But I wanted to be ready at the point that that opportunity came along. So.

James Reed (51:15)

And you were, you were the strongest candidate.

Donna Murrell (51:18)

So, you know, that's, that's, it's, it's sort of lived experience for me, really. Making sure that you're thinking about that and getting yourself ready for when that moment happens, even if it's unexpected.

James Reed (51:29)

Well, that's very useful advice. Now, you were talking earlier about people who sort of don't get anything wrong and sort of know it alls. I Mean the other side of that coin is someone who, you know, apparently doesn't know anything and they're always asking questions and doesn't seem to be able to sort of settle upon the fact that they've got to go out and do something. Have you seen that? Have you come across that people who.

Donna Murrell (51:53)

Sort of seek reassurance quite a lot through asking questions to establish every detail? Yes. I think once, once you've spotted that, I think if you recognize that it comes from a position of anxiety or, you know, perhaps self confidence, self doubt, then I think that's the conversation to have. Rather than answering every specific question and saying, you know, I'm trusting you to do this and if you come up with the wrong answer, that's, that's fine, we can talk about it. But encouraging people to go and find.

James Reed (52:20)

The answers for themselves in certain ways, that's very interesting. So you've found that to be the way to deal with that. Otherwise you're just endlessly answering questions.

Donna Murrell (52:29)

Well, questions that I might not be able to answer because actually, yeah, I'm asking that person to go find out.

James Reed (52:35)

What the answer is.

Donna Murrell (52:37)

Yeah, precisely. But I think if you recognize it as being a sort of fundamentally a self confidence or an anxiety related.

James Reed (52:47)

So in a way both those problems are to do with confidence and anxiety. Yeah, I know it all because I don't want to show that I'm weak.

Donna Murrell (52:54)

Yeah. Or I, I don't know anything.

James Reed (52:56)

I don't know anything. So I've got to ask lots of questions and, and understanding of realizing that is very helpful for managers because we're all on a journey, we can't possibly know all the answers, but we know something. And, and I suppose as a decision maker, you, you, you have to make decisions all the time, don't you? With imperfect knowledge. With yes, you know some stuff, but you don't know everything you'd like to know.

Donna Murrell (53:17)

Absolutely.

James Reed (53:18)

And that's something you learn over time as a leader, isn't it?

Donna Murrell (53:21)

It, absolutely it is. And I, I, you know, back again to what we were talking about around that culture of continuous improvement. We all know that we're not at our best when we're feeling anxious in either of direction in that you've just described. You're in a situation of imperfect knowledge where we've got to make a decision and there are consequences. But if you are in an environment where you don't feel that there are going to be dreadful personal ramifications of you making a mistake, if you've got that confidence that people are backing you. You're much freer to make a good decision, I think. And I think that cultural point is really important. Yeah, I think self confidence is such a massive enabler for people. You know, when, when you're not feeling confident, everything about your performance gets worse. So, you know, it just does.

James Reed (54:10)

And so you need in every walk of life.

Donna Murrell (54:12)

Absolutely. And so trying to create an environment, you know, I've seen people in our organization progress and do things that they didn't that they could do. And the massive confidence boost that they get from that is a joy to see, really.

James Reed (54:26)

But you also see it with our participants when they progress into a job after being unemployed for a long time.

Donna Murrell (54:31)

Absolutely.

James Reed (54:32)

That's what's so rewarding about it.

Donna Murrell (54:33)

It's really motivating to see people do well. I think I really enjoy that.

James Reed (54:38)

So do I. So, Don, I'm going to ask you two questions that I ask all of our guests. And the first question is, what gets you up on a Monday morning?

Donna Murrell (54:50)

You know, I don't have any problems getting out of bed on a Monday morning. I don't experience any kind of reluctance to get up and do my job. I love, I love what I do. I love my job. I love the fact that I get the opportunity to work with a great team of people and I get a lot of autonomy and I can make decisions. And I love the fact that the work we do is meaningful and has impact. You know, if you ask him the question, literally, I think, yeah, like I said earlier, I think it's so important to do a job that you love. And I, I really do love mine. And I think anyone that knows me personally well would say that that's really quite obvious.

James Reed (55:28)

So that's good. So you're loving Mondays, which is good.

Donna Murrell (55:31)

Yeah.

James Reed (55:31)

I was gonna say Mondays are working for you, Don. I can say I, I. It ain't easy to be cheesy, as they say. Donna loves Mondays. That's good. That's good. I'm pleased to hear it. So the second question I'm gonna ask you is one of the questions from my interview that one of the fateful 15. You'd have been asked it before. Where do you see yourself in five years time?

Donna Murrell (55:53)

Well, I've been doing this job for a year nearly, believe it or not, which is quite astonishing. Years gone past very quickly. So if I imagine, you know, another five years like that, it's going to come around quite quick. First of all, I would if it means that I'm still in the current job that I'm doing, I'd be very happy. But I would like to think that the company would be even bigger and better by then. I'd like to see, you know, I'd like to be managing director of Reading Partnership, but in a completely different size and shape, running, you know, more services in more divisions to more and more people across the country. I would be very motivated by that outcome. I mean, I certainly still still see myself in a senior role in business. I'm not planning within the next five years to go and sit on a mountain in Peru, but I might do that at some point in the future.

James Reed (56:43)

Peru's a beautiful country. Okay, Donna, thank you very much. Thank you to Donna for joining me on All About Business. If you'd like to find out more about Donna, you can follow her on LinkedIn. I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about careers at Reed, check out our current job opportunities on our website. All links are in the show notes. See you next time.