From shop floor to CEO of Kurt Geiger: How to climb to the top in retail with Neil Clifford

Summary

Podcast Summary: James Reed: All About Business – Episode: From Shop Floor to CEO of Kurt Geiger: How to Climb to the Top in Retail with Neil Clifford

Release Date: April 14, 2025

---

Introduction

In this inspiring episode of "James Reed: All About Business," host James Reed engages in a candid and dynamic conversation with Neil Clifford, the CEO of the renowned luxury footwear brand Kurt Geiger. Neil shares his remarkable journey from humble beginnings on the shop floor to leading a multi-million-pound enterprise. Listeners gain valuable insights into his strategies for business growth, leadership philosophies, and philanthropic endeavors.

---

Early Life and Education

James Reed (00:00): "What does it take to go from cleaning toilets to running a multi-million-pound brand?"

Neil Clifford opens up about his challenging early years, leaving school at 16 with only one O-level in art. He candidly discusses how his undiagnosed dyslexia impacted his academic performance and subsequent career choices.

Neil Clifford (01:13): "I'm from Portsmouth... I'm dyslexic. So I struggled to revise and remember stuff."

Despite academic setbacks, Neil's resilience and determination set the foundation for his future success.

---

Early Career in Retail

Neil's foray into the workforce began at a Fiat car dealership, where he worked in the parts department. This experience ignited his lifelong passion for cars and honed his sales skills.

James Reed (03:34): "Portsmouth."

Neil Clifford (03:49): "I always had a love of cars... selling parts for rusty Fiats because they'd sort of used to rust in about two years back in those days."

Balancing multiple jobs, including cleaning toilets at IBM, Neil learned the value of hard work and adaptability.

James Reed (04:20): "Living the life."

Neil Clifford (04:33): "I loved the job in the Fiat garage... spent all my money on clothes."

His stint at Debenhams marked a pivotal point, where Neil's exceptional salesmanship caught the attention of industry leaders.

---

Rise to Leadership

At just 19, Neil was promoted to manage a struggling Debenhams store in Woolwich, demonstrating his innate leadership abilities. His proactive approach led to significant improvements in store performance, earning him recognition from Ralph Halpern, the Chief Executive of the Burton Group.

Neil Clifford (13:04): "Move to London. That's where the big jobs are in retail."

Following Ralph's advice, Neil relocated to London, where he continued to ascend the corporate ladder, eventually overseeing multiple stores and regions.

Neil Clifford (17:34): "I suddenly became a Head Office person... the answers are in the shops."

His rapid progression showcased his capability to lead large teams and drive business growth.

---

Business Growth and Strategy

As CEO of Kurt Geiger, Neil has spearheaded significant expansion and modernization efforts. Key strategies include:

1. Internationalization: Expanding the brand's presence globally, particularly in the American market.
2. Diversification into Handbags: Broadening the product line to include handbags, which now surpass shoe sales.
3. Digital Transformation: Enhancing online sales channels, which now account for 40% of UK sales.

Neil Clifford (37:06): "Internationalization and the elasticity of our brand into handbags."

These strategic moves have propelled Kurt Geiger from a £47 million enterprise to a formidable player with over £400 million in sales.

James Reed (34:19): "You've gone from 47 million to 280."

Despite challenges like the COVID-19 pandemic, Neil's leadership ensured the company's resilience and sustained growth.

---

Leadership Philosophy

Neil emphasizes the importance of people over processes and champions a hands-on approach to leadership.

Neil Clifford (27:10): "Listening to people... the answers are in the stores."

He advocates for regular store visits, engaging with staff to glean insights directly from the frontline.

James Reed (16:24): "Work hard. That's what you were doing?"

Neil Clifford (16:24): "Yeah, basically."

Neil's belief in empowering teams and fostering a collaborative environment has been instrumental in Kurt Geiger's success.

Neil Clifford (46:41): "What can we help you with? What can we do better?"

This question underscores his commitment to continuous improvement and employee engagement.

---

Impact of Dyslexia

Neil candidly discusses how dyslexia has shaped his career and leadership style. Instead of viewing it as a limitation, he leverages it as a strength, enhancing his ability to connect with people and think creatively.

Neil Clifford (28:11): "Dyslexia is a superpower now... I'm always looking up, trying to study human beings."

His experience with dyslexia has heightened his emotional intelligence and interpersonal skills, making him a more effective leader.

James Reed (27:10): "But how do you get the information? Talking."

Neil Clifford (27:20): "Listening to people."

---

Philanthropic Endeavors

Responding to the challenges posed by the COVID-19 pandemic, Neil spearheaded the creation of the Kurt Geiger Foundation, focusing on supporting young people aspiring to enter the creative industries.

Neil Clifford (50:11): "We ended up giving away about three or four million pounds worth of Kurt Geiger shoes and handbags through Covid."

The foundation established the Kurt Geiger Academy, a free educational institution offering practical training and mentorship to over 100 young individuals annually.

Neil Clifford (55:03): "It's really hands-on... every young person has a mentor."

This initiative not only provides invaluable opportunities for youth but also serves as a recruitment pipeline for Kurt Geiger.

---

Leadership Insights and Personal Growth

Neil reflects on the importance of continuous learning, self-awareness, and maintaining a strong work ethic.

Neil Clifford (48:22): "You're doing that artificially hot, not smart enough... striving to be better every day."

He emphasizes the significance of routine, reliability, and a positive attitude in achieving sustained success.

Neil Clifford (63:36): "Consistent hard work and a positive attitude of progress."

Neil's commitment to personal and professional growth serves as a model for aspiring business leaders.

---

Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Neil Clifford's journey from the shop floor to the CEO of Kurt Geiger is a testament to resilience, strategic foresight, and unwavering dedication. Key lessons from the episode include:

• Embrace Challenges: Overcome personal and professional hurdles with determination.
• People-Centric Leadership: Prioritize employee engagement and listen to frontline insights.
• Strategic Growth: Focus on diversification, international expansion, and digital transformation.
• Philanthropy as a Growth Catalyst: Leverage charitable initiatives to foster community and talent development.
• Continuous Improvement: Maintain a relentless pursuit of excellence and avoid complacency.

James Reed (67:33): "Let's all try 10% harder. Everyone listening. I think we'll do better."

Neil's final message encourages a collective effort towards progress, highlighting the impact of individual dedication on broader economic and social growth.

---

Notable Quotes

• Neil Clifford (01:13): "I'm dyslexic. So I struggled to revise and remember stuff."
• Neil Clifford (13:04): "Move to London. That's where the big jobs are in retail."
• Neil Clifford (27:10): "Listening to people... the answers are in the stores."
• Neil Clifford (37:06): "Internationalization and the elasticity of our brand into handbags."
• Neil Clifford (50:11): "We ended up giving away about three or four million pounds worth of Kurt Geiger shoes and handbags through Covid."
• Neil Clifford (63:36): "Consistent hard work and a positive attitude of progress."
• James Reed (67:33): "Let's all try 10% harder. Everyone listening. I think we'll do better."

---

Final Thoughts

Neil Clifford's story underscores the transformative power of perseverance, strategic thinking, and a genuine passion for people. His leadership at Kurt Geiger not only drives business success but also fosters meaningful community impact, setting a benchmark for aspiring business leaders everywhere.

---

For more insightful conversations with business leaders, philanthropists, and charitable celebrities, tune into future episodes of "James Reed: All About Business."

Transcript

[James Reid]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reid, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. What does it take to go from cleaning toilets to running a multi million pound brand? Neil Clifford left school with just one certificate in art, but through energy, initiative and tenacity, became CEO of luxury footwear brand Kurt Geigen. In today's episode, we discuss how dyslexia impacted his career journey, how he adapted his business strategy to open in America and expand online, and how a conversation one Saturday afternoon in Debenhams completely changed his life. Well, I'm very excited today to welcome Neil Clifford to the studio. Neil is the CEO of the fabulous fashion brand Kurt Geiger and he's got an amazing personal story that I'm sure you'll find inspiring. I mean, I'll begin by just mentioning Neil. I hope you don't mind that you left school at 16 with just one O level.

[Neil Clifford]

I did.

[James Reid]

What happened next?

[Neil Clifford]

I failed the others. I actually thought I was doing quite well. I was. I'm from Portsmouth, my hometown. I sort of typical Grange Hill, sort of comprehensive. I was in the good classes, not the low classes, but actually transpires 40 years later. I'm dyslexic. So I struggled to revise and remember stuff. Maybe I've got a selective memory, but it was a bit of a shock opening that little brown envelope and all my other mates got 5, 6, 7, 80 levels and I got C in art was a bit disappointing.

[James Reid]

So you didn't know, you had no idea you were going to get that sort of.

[Neil Clifford]

No, no, no.

[James Reid]

So that must have been a bit of a shock for you and your parents, I'm suspecting, or did they not mind?

[Neil Clifford]

Well, my father died when I was 4, actually, so it was me and my mum and she wasn't that interested, be it that, you know, she was a good mum, but she was more sort of focused on Bingo.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

And other things. So I just sort of threw. Threw away the piece of paper and off I went, really. And just told myself I didn't do very well.

[James Reid]

And off you went. I mean, that's the key, key phrase here.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

So off you went. And I understand you, you got a job in a Fiat car dealership.

[Neil Clifford]

Well, what happened with that was that there was this rule which still exists, isn't it, that you had to have, you know, five O levels to get an apprenticeship. And I had no idea, like most people, really, what I wanted to do. And there were no jobs in 83, you know, it was 12% unemployment. It's a bit of a ropey odd time for, for the uk. Be it that, you know, I'm a sort of Thatcher boy, made good in looking back. But anyway, there were no jobs so I, I, it was the youth training scheme, the YTS scheme, which was a, you know, a government funded employment thing for kids like me. And my mate always wanted to be a mechanic, Simon. So he took the one for the Fiat garage to be a mechanic and there was one next to it for the parts department and I thought, well, I'm going to go with him, you know, it'd be a laugh if we could go together. And we went, both went for interviews. Cannons Fiat dealership on Copner Road. I could walk there from my house, which I thought was handy.

[James Reid]

Portsmouth.

[Neil Clifford]

Portsmouth. And off I went and got the job and four days in the parts department with my little microfiche and my oil filters and my air filters for Fiat 128s. And he was a mechanic. But anyway, it gave me £25 a.

[James Reid]

Week and a lifelong love of cars. I understand.

[Neil Clifford]

I always had a love of cars, you know, I was, I was. And I do still have a love of cars. And that was more from, you know, age 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 years old with the top Trumps cards, you know, so I am a car guy. And anyway, so it was nice that it was. You got a bit of money for my petrol for my Yamaha Fizzy motorbike that I had. I was in a band at the time.

[James Reid]

So you're still living the life in Nice. Living the life.

[Neil Clifford]

You've got a motorbike at a night job cleaning toilets.

[James Reid]

Another two jobs.

[Neil Clifford]

I had another job cleaning toilets at IBM, right. Which was more than the 25 quid because I needed a new keyboard.

[James Reid]

May I ask, what state did they leave the toilets in?

[Neil Clifford]

It was all super clean.

[James Reid]

It was always clean.

[Neil Clifford]

We basically used to sort of mess around really for two hours.

[James Reid]

So you didn't find them in this?

[Neil Clifford]

No, no, no. It was always interesting. It was all quite posh and seeing those. IBM was the. Portsmouth was the headquarters of IBM at the time and suddenly saw this insight of these posh offices and posh toilets and, you know, all these lovely, you know, workspace that I didn't know really existed. And I got my keyboard, actually I bought my keyboard from a band. So, yeah, that was my first year really. I love that job. I love the job in the Fiat garage. You know, I was talking to people front of the front desk selling parts for rusty Fiats because they'd sort of used to rust in about two years back in those days.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

And then all of the camaraderie was not cars. I was selling parts. Yeah.

[James Reid]

And what did that teach you about sales?

[Neil Clifford]

Well, I've always been a good talker. It's about the only thing I'm good at, probably, but so. And I like people, you know, I'm. I'm curious and I enjoy other people's company and it was nice to be as part of a gang, you know, with the. With the mechanics or with the sales guys. It was the launch of the UNO in 83.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Neil Clifford]

A bit too much information, probably, but, you know, I remember it.

[James Reid]

Not a big car, but it was.

[Neil Clifford]

European Car of the Year.

[James Reid]

Was it?

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Right.

[James Reid]

So.

[Neil Clifford]

And those.

[James Reid]

I can see why people bought stuff off you.

[Neil Clifford]

I remember. I remember arriving the first day into the. My first day in the job. There was a PX19 final edition in Burgundy in one end and then the four Doru at the other end. I thought, oh, this is. This is magic. I'm. I'm. Actually, work is so much nicer than school.

[James Reid]

What is it about work that's nicer than school?

[Neil Clifford]

Well, you get money, which is nice. You. For me, anyway, maybe I'm. Because I'm not academic. I suppose so. I'm looking at it from one end of a telescope, aren't I? But it felt like progress. I could. You know, I always knew that I want. I knew that I wanted to be something. I just didn't know what it was. I was quite materialistic, so I liked money and I was willing to.

[James Reid]

You're saying that in the past tense.

[Neil Clifford]

No, I still love money. I think anyone that says they don't is sort of lying.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

So you still like money?

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah, I still like money, but I think. I think I always felt that I could do something or be something or achieve, you know, stuff, but I didn't know what that looked like. And being stuck in, you know, not to say, you know, my family is still in Portsmouth. I don't. You know, I knew I sort of needed to escape Portsmouth, probably, but. So I. I like work. I don't. I don't think you should see. Work shouldn't be a negative. You know, it's part of life. There's. You haven't got life and then work. Work is just like a really great structural part of your life, really.

[James Reid]

I couldn't agree more. I mean, I think that's something that somehow gets missed quite a lot these days when people talk about work. Life balances.

[Neil Clifford]

If Work, I don't think there's such a thing, really. You've got to enjoy work.

[James Reid]

I agree.

[Neil Clifford]

I see work as positive, you know, not just because of money or, you know, materialistic things or. But I think being around people, the social gymnasium of work, I think is, is critical for one's mental health as well as everything else.

[James Reid]

There seems to be a mounting body of evidence to support that. And it's interesting now with people sort of preferring hybrid work or remote work, whether that's in their long run interest or in their organizations. And there's a sort of tension around that.

[Neil Clifford]

I think we have to be really, really, really careful not to, particularly for young people. When you're learning, when you're that sponge of you need to learn from other people that the work environment is critical. I've got the whole, you know, ADHD thing. So I, you know, I find it hard to focus on anything. The perfect job for me, looking back, was always going to be a CEO's job because I was never, I'm never, ever, ever scared of responsibility. I always sort of wanted to be the boss, frankly. And my job really is to sort of, you know, nudge people along.

[James Reid]

But how do you do that? How do you go from sort of entry level job to CEO? Well, tell us this story because you went, you left theater and you went somewhere else.

[Neil Clifford]

What happened was that was 25 quid a week. I finished my, I finished my thing. But in between my house, I lived on Coppler Road and the Fiat garage was at the other end of the street. Halfway along the street was a hardware shop called Amberly Stores. And I saw a little job advertised on that window and it was £40 a week. So I thought, okay, well I'm going to go and apply for that because whatever that is, you know, 40% pay rise. Went in and spoke to Gene that ran the shop and I got the job in there. And that was basically a sort of open all hours job.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

So I cut keys, I delivered paraffin to lovely old ladies, gas bottles. I had my little Honda company car, the little van, you know, with the little flip down sides. Yeah, Selling, you know, the Ronnie Corbett, the Ronnie Corbett sketches.

[James Reid]

Can't see you smiling. You obviously really enjoyed this job.

[Neil Clifford]

Adored that job. It was like it was the two.

[James Reid]

Happy memories of that job.

[Neil Clifford]

It was the two Ronnie sketch, you know, got it was that job. It was wonderful. And I did that for about a year and a half by smelt of paraffin.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

Because you know, the paraffin heater was a Big was a big thing then. So I delivered 20, 30 liters of paraffin a day. And my, my mates on a Friday night, Saturday night, saying, may, you know, you stink a paraffin, right? So I thought, oh, this is not really a long term job, really.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

And my mate had just come out of the army, John, and he had a. He was a salesman in the Burton's department in Debenham, Southsea, right. And he said, actually it's a job. Do you want to come down? And portsmouth in the 80s, it still is. Like this was very much the mayor. The, the men were the peacocks, you know, the colored feathers. We always dress up, you know, took a lot of interest in how we look.

[James Reid]

That's a Portsmouth thing, is it Nothing?

[Neil Clifford]

Well, I think it's an every. It's a thing, isn't it?

[James Reid]

I'm not saying.

[Neil Clifford]

But it's a Portsmouth thing. And so I always look smart, you know, I always spent all my money on clothes. We'd always go to Brighton or go to London and borrow some money off your mum and get the new, new man jean jacket or whatever. So I went for the interview at Principles for Men in Debenhams of South Sea, right, With the manager called Sean Uzzle. And I got the job as a sales salesman, right. And I never. Principles for Men doesn't exist anymore. And I never looked back. I thought that was just. I just discovered the place where if I was nice to people and charming and good at talking and helpful, I was suddenly really good at something.

[James Reid]

So what were you selling?

[Neil Clifford]

Selling suits and shoes and clothes and socks and gloves and jumpers, right? And I suddenly became, my God. Who's this guy that can sort of rattle on all day?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

And so you were making a lot of sales. So you got noticed, did you?

[Neil Clifford]

I got noticed. I was then offered the job as the manager of the Principles for Men department in Guildford, right. So drive up and down the A3.

[James Reid]

So what age are you at this point?

[Neil Clifford]

I was at 19. 18.

[James Reid]

So young.

[Neil Clifford]

19. I saw a job in Guilford, I applied for that.

[James Reid]

So you're a manager of a store.

[Neil Clifford]

In Guildford at 19, inside the Debenhams. So it was a concession, right? And then one of the big things, and I think we've all got a story about the one person that helped us, right? Everyone's got that story. But this was 88, 87. And Ralph Halpin, who was chief executive of the Burton Group, a real, you know, big, big, big retail dude, lived in East Horsley, lived near Guilford and would visit the Debenhams on a Saturday.

[James Reid]

Debenhams was part of that group.

[Neil Clifford]

It was part of the group then. Yeah. And he came in and my, my, my. Everyone was, oh, my God, there's Ralph Halpern. You know, no one would. Spoke to. And I thought, this is my moment.

[Unknown]

Right?

[James Reid]

So he comes in, you're there, he.

[Neil Clifford]

Comes in and I'm like, hello, sir, lovely to meet you. Shook his hand and off I went, you know, told him everything that I'd done and how I'd turn the business around. And I was up 25 and I did this.

[James Reid]

And I was probably quite pleased to hear this.

[Neil Clifford]

And he was like, right, you know what you want, you know what you want to do with it. And I'm like, you know, I just want to be the biggest store manager and I want to be an area manager and I want to learn more. I'm curious, I'm happy to learn, develop. I don't really care about my salary, I just want to get on. And his advice was move to London. That's where the big jobs are in retail. So I went home and said to my mum, I've just been told by Ralph Halpern I need to move to London, so I'm going to move to London. She's like, great, you need to move to London. Yeah, let's do it.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

So I applied for the first job that I saw. This was before email.

[James Reid]

So he, he wasn't offering you a job?

[Neil Clifford]

No, no, no. He just said, you know, you should think about moving to London.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

But the message was, go where the action is.

[Neil Clifford]

Go where the action is. And I saw Woolwich Store manager. Woolwich. I didn't even know where Woolwich was. It was a bit hairy at 88.

[James Reid]

Woolwich, I remember.

[Neil Clifford]

And so I applied for the job, got the job. Obviously no one else applied. I was the only applicant. £9,750 a year. I remember my offer letter. And my mum drove me up in a little ford escort mark one PCR 924M. Number plate?

[James Reid]

Yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

No, 74. Yeah. Four door escort. Rare car, actually it is. And then got a little bed sit in Plumstead and off I went. And I worked my absolute heart out in that store and I, I, I stood out. I was the best performing store. It was principles for men, but it was a proper shop with keys and shutter.

[James Reid]

Did the till at the end of.

[Neil Clifford]

The day and all of that and all of the staff was. It was like a. It was the worst store in the company. 8% stock loss, terrible sales loss, theft. All the staff were nicking, basically.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

So I got rid of all the staff, caught them stealing, used to go home and then come back an hour later and there was the assistant manager with the shutter up, nicking suits. And really. So I got.

[James Reid]

This is pretty tough.

[Neil Clifford]

Got him.

[James Reid]

Woolwich, 1988. What, you had to dismiss everyone?

[Neil Clifford]

Yep.

[James Reid]

And you were how old?

[Neil Clifford]

I was 19.

[James Reid]

19. So that you're learning a lot about business. Sounds to me.

[Neil Clifford]

But I was, you know, I love that job. I used to get in at 7 in the morning, do my own visual merchandising, check everything, you know, do my. Stop, take, drive, head office mad. Ring them up at 9:00. Straight away, I need more jumpers, I need more suits, I need this, I need that. And there was a mat. There was a guy called Steve Robinson that was the managing director, very close friend of Ralph's, came and visited on a Saturday. I saw him, stood outside and went straight out, you know, I was. Had my blazer on and my, you know, I looked the business and I said, oh, Steve, lovely to see. I see. I've come to see how have you been doing this, you know, why is the store 30% up and why is the, you know, the profitability double? And so off I went again.

[James Reid]

But what is the answer to that question?

[Neil Clifford]

Work hard.

[James Reid]

Work hard. That's what you were doing?

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah, basically.

[James Reid]

It's that simple.

[Neil Clifford]

There's nothing much, there's not very much complicated. I mean, you sort of obviously can't.

[James Reid]

But you weren't displaying the suits in a more creative way or.

[Neil Clifford]

Well, I was, I was, yeah, I.

[James Reid]

Was, I was, you know, pricing it differently.

[Neil Clifford]

No, no, no, I wasn't, I wasn't doing that.

[James Reid]

You couldn't do that, I suppose.

[Neil Clifford]

No. But, you know, I've recruited a good team. A good team of three or four people that I trusted. I was, you know, hopefully quite motivating, I was. All the things you are as a store manager, you know, I think work hard, work hard. As long as, you know, as long as you've got half decent brain and hard work, it sort of pays off in the end.

[James Reid]

But recruiting a good team that you trusted is for me a big bell ringing how important that is. Because you can't do it all by yourself.

[Neil Clifford]

No, you can't do it all by. I sort of tried to at that. There's a very small store. It was next door to the first ever McDonald's in United Kingdom. I remember that there was a little plaque and Woolwich McDonald's. Yeah.

[James Reid]

But you're still. Your arrival there was Sometime after the first.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah. I think it was 83 or something.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

So I was then. I was then promoted to the biggest store in the company in. In Bromley.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

So I Suddenly at age 20 was the big change was there was.

[James Reid]

So how many people were working for you in Bromley?

[Neil Clifford]

25, 30.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah. And yeah so I. I really did have quite a fast move.

[James Reid]

So you went from boutique to big.

[Neil Clifford]

Store in two and a half years. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Right.

[James Reid]

You're still very young and you're managing a lot more people.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

How did that go Bromley?

[Neil Clifford]

Good actually. You know I was. I was a bit of. Bromley became. There were three stores that were the biggest. Liverpool Marble Arch and Bromley and Croydon was about number four. And so we were all fighting. The only time Liverpool ever beat me was really Christmas week. When the. When the Christmas money gets paid out in Liverpool. You know it's a bit of a.

[James Reid]

They're last minute Christmas shoppers there. Well they.

[Neil Clifford]

No they. They have. They have. They collect money for Christmas in cash.

[James Reid]

Oh the savings and then.

[Neil Clifford]

And then the savings then gets paid out and Liverpool only ever beat me on Christmas week. Apart from that I was always the number one. I loved winning basically.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

I'm obsessed with winning.

[James Reid]

So this is what year are we talking about?

[Neil Clifford]

This is 1990. 89. 90. I know Kent was so 35 years.

[James Reid]

Later you can still remember you beat Liverpool.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

Every week except Chris.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah, definitely 100. But you know I like that Ken Kent in 88 was Boomtown. You know it was the right city money. I was selling 20.

[James Reid]

That's a big bang in the city.

[Neil Clifford]

I was selling 20 Saint Laurent suits on a Saturday.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

You know me and the team. So almost £4 million of turnover in 88 in a menswear store in Bromley. I mean I bet that doesn't exist now.

[Unknown]

No, no.

[James Reid]

So you were doing really well in the Burton. I remember there was an ad. Wasn't there a promotion bags more buzz at Burtons or something?

[Neil Clifford]

There was. I was. Principal Principles for Men was the posh bit of the burn really. We look on Burton's a little bit obviously that we don't issue with that didn't exist anymore. And then I was. Then I was made a. An area manager. So I was in charge of 20 stores and then Steve Robinson and also a friend called Paul Sweetnam who was very, very important to my career. Sort of saw the fact that I had this ability to connect people and there was A job sort of created for me called Branch Merchandiser. So I was. Then I got my first company car. Renault 5 Turbo, age 21.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

G reg. Love that car. Navy blue, gorgeous thing. And I used to bomb around the United Kingdom visiting all of our stores, right. Two, three times a week. And then I would be in Head Office side this, you know, I suddenly become a Head Office person on Ox retreat.

[James Reid]

Yes.

[Neil Clifford]

And I would connect the stores to Head Office, which I'm still a big believer. And I drive everyone mad a little bit at Kurt Geiger saying, you know, the answers are in the shops. The answers are in the shop, not in the spreadsheets or certainly not, not all, not all. Get out there, get out there. Listen, talk to the staff, talk to the managers. They know all the answers. They know why the, the shoes aren't fitting or, you know, whatever the issues are. You normally discover the answers in the, the problems are in the spreadsheet, the answers are in the stores. So I had this job where I was connecting store performance to Head Office and yeah, that was a, that was a lovely job. I love that job.

[James Reid]

So, so you were obviously progressing well in the Burton Group and then at some point in the mid-90s. Yeah, you moved to Kurt Geiger.

[Neil Clifford]

No, what happened was I would then, I was then made head of merchandising and logistics at Champion Sport. Oh, Steve Robinson, who was this guy who was outside my shop in Woolwich, he was made CEO of Champion Sport. I went with him. My friend Paul with three of us went with him and we, we, we did a big transformation project at Champion Sport for a while and then they sold that business to Olympus Sports.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

None of these things exist anymore. And I was offered either 17,000 pound redundancy or a job back in the Burton Group as a merchandise or a planner. I was with my now wife, girlfriend Emma, we were living in London and I took the 17 grand and I went around the world for two years because I always wanted to travel. I always want, I was curious about seeing the world and, you know, I'd been to Benidorm with my mom, you know, on Dan Air or whatever, but I hadn't really, I hadn't really seen anything.

[James Reid]

So you went for two years?

[Neil Clifford]

I went for two years. I went to Trail Finders in Kensington High street and bought one of those round the world tickets, you know, and went around the world for two years. Maybe a better human being came back.

[James Reid]

How did it make you a better human being?

[Neil Clifford]

I just think that the more you see of the world the more, the more diversity you see in countries, human race. How lucky you are, frankly. You know, you spend two months traveling from East Timor in Indonesia, right the way around to Sumatra in buses and canoes and you realize how lucky you are.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Neil Clifford]

How fortunate we are to live in this great country and, you know, the opportunities we've got and whatever. So I think it took the edge off me. I was probably a bit of a. I don't think I was an awful person at all, but I probably was a bit too sharp elbowed.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

So I think it calmed me down a little bit, maybe.

[James Reid]

We're delighted that you're listening to this episode. Hit the follow button so that we can continue to bring you the best business insight and actionable advice to help your business and or career. So we're talking 30 years ago, you're now the CEO of Kurt Guy. What was that first job you did at?

[Neil Clifford]

Head of Retail.

[James Reid]

Head of retail. So it was quite a senior job?

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah, yeah, Well, I was quite a senior person. Well, on my cv, anyway.

[James Reid]

Well, you've been away for two years. I might have questioned you about that.

[Neil Clifford]

No, but I'm bloody good at an interview.

[James Reid]

Clearly. Clearly. I'm not disputing it. So you, you got this job, Head of retail.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

And what were your responsibilities?

[Neil Clifford]

All of the stores. So we, we were.

[James Reid]

How many stores did you have?

[Neil Clifford]

Well, we were. The business was owned by Harrods actually. So we. And we still, we still run the shoe business in Harrods and now. And we had about 10 stores and we were running the shoe business in Harrods and we had a little business in self, which is much bigger business today. We've developed that. So I worked for this wonderful guy who interviewed me called Philip Watson, who was like a real brilliantly charming, handsome shoe dog. Looked like Frank Sinatra. And I thought, oh, this is, you know, this is wonderful. And I can, you know, my job is going into the shoe department in Harrods and Selfridges and these Kurt Geiger stores that were quite posh and lovely and of course I was. I needed a job anyway. So, as you know, I think whatever job I was offered, I'd probably taken, you know, as long as it was a decent salary. Got my little company car, got my little Rover 220. So I was, I was happy. But yeah, no, so. So that's a big part of your.

[James Reid]

Job, though, getting out on the road, visiting shops. I love listening to what people have to say in the store.

[Neil Clifford]

I was very lucky to be invited. This is a Bit of a random thing to say to the celebration of Stirling Moss's life at Westminster Abbey last year. It's a bit of a random thing to say. And on the. You know, the little book you get as a. As a celebration of his life, I'm sure there's a posh word for it, you know, in the church sort of thing. That piece of paper, his quote was, movement is tranquility.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

And I thought, that's really lovely for someone like myself that struggles with my attention span, but I've got a ton of energy and you could, you know, you know, the ADHD thing. And I've got dyslexia and all of that stuff. I struggle to concentrate and stay still, so.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

The positive of that is I love doing stuff, moving, traveling, meeting new people. I'm curious and open for, you know, learning and therefore zooming around at a million miles an hour suits me down to the ground, particularly if I'm being paid for it.

[James Reid]

And what a contrast that is with sitting in a library and studying a book at school or something. It's sort of.

[Neil Clifford]

I always struggled with it, you know, I was looking out the window, to be honest, and my son. My son's dyslexic and I see it in him. I didn't know I formally had dyslexia until basically, you know, Vincent, who's my son, was diagnosed, you know, age 12. You know, my kids are at Posha school and, you know, my wife is much more attentive than maybe my mum was about stuff. So, you know, we spotted it in him and spotted in him. I'm like, well, actually, I've got, you know, I like. I'm like that.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

I've got the. The biggest collection of car books that the first page has been read. You know, the little corner has been turned on the first page. And I like pictures.

[James Reid]

Book sellers love people like you, I guess.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah. But I never read anything at work, really. I don't read the sales reports, really, or the night.

[James Reid]

So how do you get the information? Talking.

[Neil Clifford]

Listening to people.

[James Reid]

Yeah, talking and listening. I think that's a big feature of business leaders, I think.

[Neil Clifford]

I think. I don't know, but I think for me, dyslexia, it's a superpower now. I mean, it was incredibly frustrating at school, but because I don't look down, though, this is my little story or my com. I'm never looking down and reading stuff. I'm always looking up. I'm always, you know, looking in people's eyes and. You mean physically Physically, yeah. So I think I'm a better judge of people than some because I take, I put more effort into trying to study human beings than I do spreadsheets or words.

[James Reid]

Very interesting because so many meetings now, there's a lot of people sitting around the table with a computer screen or laptop.

[Neil Clifford]

I don't look at any of it.

[James Reid]

You don't look at any of it? No, you look at them and you learn just by looking.

[Neil Clifford]

And you know, if you're, if you're, if you're the store manager in Woolwich and half your staff are nicking and then the customers are sometimes threatening you with a syringe of blood for a leather jacket, you know, an 88 when the whole, you know, things was.

[Unknown]

Yeah, wow.

[Neil Clifford]

You know, you, you, you, you get to understand the human race and the good ones and the bad ones. You end up being quite a good judge of character, I think.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

In life, with experience really, don't you?

[James Reid]

So you've accumulated, I mean with your working and, and getting these responsibilities a very young age and then traveling and then working again in sort of multi store locations and you've learned a lot about people.

[Neil Clifford]

I adore people.

[James Reid]

All of them.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah. In general. Yeah. I think 95 of human beings you adore, they're very decent. Yeah.

[James Reid]

So talk me through that. What, what, what, what do you like about them especially?

[Neil Clifford]

Well, I think I, I find them as my fuel, really, my energy, you know, I can't work in isolation. I can't work on my swell. I can't work. You can't really work from home as a CEO really anyway, can you? No, I agree with that and thank God. I think it's ridiculous frankly. But the, my, my motivation, energy, my learning comes from engaging and working with people because people find the solutions not computers or spreadsheets, you know.

[Unknown]

No, quite.

[James Reid]

So this whole sort of emergence of AI, you see how.

[Neil Clifford]

I'm not clever enough to answer that question. I mean, I don't know, I mean, clearly it is helpful and we, we're attempting to, you know, use it. And I don't want to sort of sound like an old dinosaur, but at the end of the day it's people, people make the difference in, in my, in my view, you know.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

I remember we had to spend £3 million moving head office in October 99 because the world was with Y2K.

[James Reid]

I remember a millennium bug.

[Neil Clifford]

Oh, it's going to be, you know, awful. And we spent, we had to moved office, we moved offices, we bought all new computers. Everything was Seriously? No, because it was, it wasn't me. It was, you know, the Harrods IT department and everyone was. And I think, I think in the end, you know, people, people are the most important thing. Not, not really computers.

[James Reid]

Well, if there's any consolation, it was a very good time for IT recruiters.

[Neil Clifford]

Is it? No, it is, of course it is.

[James Reid]

No, look, I mean our sector was booming briefly.

[Neil Clifford]

My daughter works in I T and data and you know, so. Yeah, so I look, of course, I just, it's not for me. And I think, No, I think people are brilliant. Really. I think. And I think it's also for your mental health, being surrounded by people. I think that social gymnasium thing of just being, being engaging and learning and working with other people. I think that's part of the issue of this sort of very difficult post Covid world for young people is the maybe the lack of engagement and it all, you know, messed us up in many different ways, didn't it Covid? You know, it was dreadful and I think the more we can get back together the better. Not just for work and productivity and the economy and all of those things, but also well being.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Reid]

So your journey then, Kurt geiger, you became CEO, I believe, 20 years ago, was it?

[Neil Clifford]

Well, I, I, yeah, 2003. But I, I did, I had a little holiday. I was recruited by Texas Pacific Private Equity which is how I got my bluff. Bluffy away in private equity book.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

So I went a couple years to Switzerland. I, I actually went to Bali bally shoes and lived in, you know, this, what in theory was a, you know, I, you know, this amazing three bedroom penthouse on Lake Lugano and.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

You know, but actually I had a sort of an ironing board and a McDonald's back, to be honest. You know, it looked good from a distance but my wife was still in Moswa Hill. We had three young kids.

[James Reid]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

But I learned a lot about this, this funny thing called private equity.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

And I came back actually to Kurt Geiger.

[James Reid]

So I, what was, was that with a private equity yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

Texas specific group.

[James Reid]

So you, you were part of that?

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah, I was part of that. I was recruited to do that.

[James Reid]

So you bought the company?

[Neil Clifford]

I was part of the team that bought. I didn't have any money. Money.

[James Reid]

No, but they needed you.

[Neil Clifford]

They. Yeah. So I did that job and learned a lot very quickly about that sort of world of, you know, not really leverage. I wouldn't be smart enough to be sort of financy, but sort of energy around growth, I suppose and came back to Kurt Geiger and managed, you know, by, by total chance to persuade Barclays Private Equity, right. They just bought and sold Hobbs, Right. So they were feeling very chipper and, you know, we could maybe repeat this and persuaded them to help me buy Kurt Geiger.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

Which I didn't have any money. We had to remortgage our houses. 2005. 2005, right. And we remortgaged our houses. Two or three of the management team bought the company with their money, 47 million pounds. And there began our little journey of private equity. And, and your little journey of project.

[James Reid]

I mean, I should say to our listeners that you've just so Kurt geiger again for £289 million. So that's quite a journey.

[Neil Clifford]

I didn't get all that, unfortunately.

[James Reid]

No, I'm sure you didn't, but that's that. But that. But aside from your modesty, I mean, that does show the value you have added over that 20 year period.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

In, in raw business terms, you've gone from 47 million to 280.

[Neil Clifford]

Well, the journey, if you really want.

[James Reid]

That's very impressive.

[Neil Clifford]

If you really want.

[James Reid]

By any measure.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

So I think we should stress that.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah, if you really want the funny little journey. We, we were 3 million EBITDA in 2005 and Barclays backed us in 2005 and we went 3, 5, 8, 10. So we sold from Barclays into Graphite Private Equity. 2010. Then we went. This was a very good little run. 10, 12, 15, 18, 20, 20 million EBITDA in 11, 2011 sold to an American.

[James Reid]

So that was despite the financial crisis, actually.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

We didn't bother reading that spreadsheet.

[Neil Clifford]

We did read that newspaper.

[James Reid]

Yeah, very good.

[Neil Clifford]

And then not reading stuff. Exactly. It was very helpful. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't get distracted.

[James Reid]

Oh, exactly, yeah. So you carried on, although I do.

[Neil Clifford]

Read the Financial Times. But the. Then we went 2020 with one year of non growth in 2012 and then 20, 23, 25, 28, 30, 30 million EBITDA and 15. And then we actually the, the, the American corporate we were with were bought out by private equity.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

So we were back into private equity.

[James Reid]

So you've changed hands several times on this chart.

[Neil Clifford]

So we bought our equity back and then we went. We then sold to Sinvin Private Equity. American, British, really great British private equity firm just around the corner from here in St. Paul's then we went 30, 32, 34. Bit of a couple of years, those 35, 38, 41 EBITDA so 400 million of sales from where we started at 50. And then Covid.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

So we were for sale in 2019.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

Right in the middle of COVID I was in Hong Kong, actually, when Covid kicked off. You know, my wife texted me, you need to get back. You know, Italy's closed and all of that drama just beginning. And it was like a game of snakes and ladders. So we went from 41 to 6.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

20, 20.

[Neil Clifford]

You know, stores closed, all of that warehouse closed drama. And then we've just spent the last four years going 6, 20, 30, 40. And now we're beyond 40. So you're closer to 50.

[James Reid]

Yeah. You're powering ahead once again.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

So those are the numbers. I mean, a lot of hard work, as you said earlier, went into that. Behind the numbers. What were the sort of three main things you did to grow the business like that?

[Neil Clifford]

Internationalization, which markets us.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

And the elasticity of our brand into handbags.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

If you said, well, they're the two things, I could list you 10.

[James Reid]

But the two moving into handbags and going international.

[Neil Clifford]

And we now are. We. We're. We're a bigger handbag business than we are shoe business.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

And we're bigger in America than we are in the UK.

[James Reid]

So you say you could name 10, but those are the two big levers.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

And often that's the case, isn't it? That's why I said two or three things.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah, yeah. We did lots of things. You know, Europe, margins, more categories, more stores, new store concepts.

[James Reid]

You must have opened a lot of stores.

[Neil Clifford]

Well, we actually, we opened a lot of stores from 2005-15.

[James Reid]

What about going online?

[Neil Clifford]

UK online now is 40% of the business. Yeah.

[James Reid]

So that would be a big change.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah, big change. Big change. So, yeah, we, you know, we, we, we. We worked hard and got lucky and thought hard about what our girl and boy wants from us as a brand.

[Unknown]

Right.

[James Reid]

What is that? How would you encapsulate?

[Neil Clifford]

Well, from a. From a. The Kurt Geiger brand has a. As a. A real distinctive design attribute. We're really good at color, basically. Again, if you want to distill my answer into one point, we're really good at color and we're really good at value. So, you know, a handbag from us would be £200, £250 in leather and distinctive in. As much as you can't go and buy another handbag that really looks like that. We put color together just like your room that I'm in here.

[James Reid]

We approve of it.

[Neil Clifford]

We put color together very well and we've got lucky that some of our competitors at our price point got weaker through that period. And of course, we, you know, we've moved into their space a little bit, but yeah, we've, we've.

[James Reid]

Why do you. Why do you think they got weaker while you got stronger?

[Neil Clifford]

Well, I think we can all get. You know, I'm super paranoid again about being weaker myself.

[James Reid]

Yes. So what? You look out for.

[Neil Clifford]

Everything. I really struggle with contentment and happiness. Yeah. I mean, I'm a happy individual. I hope that portrays itself.

[James Reid]

Yeah, yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

But I'm never. I'm never.

[James Reid]

You're discontent.

[Neil Clifford]

I'm never really content. No. It's called sometimes frustrating. I think my wife, actually, more than.

[James Reid]

Anything else, I was just thinking that might be the case. But, you know, I'm sort of glad you said it.

[Neil Clifford]

I'm sort of happy, but prostrated.

[James Reid]

Yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

If that can be such a thing. Or, or I'm, I'm. I'm just. I could. I could frame it in ambition, but.

[James Reid]

The sort of basis of your discontent is you could see that things could always be improved.

[Neil Clifford]

Always. I'm. I'm always. I'm quite a pain for my team sometimes because I'm.

[James Reid]

And you still visit the stores a lot?

[Neil Clifford]

Oh, God. Most days.

[James Reid]

Most days, yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

I'm a right pain, but I think that's the nature of my job, really. You can't ever really. You can't ever really kick back and say, we've done it, it's fantastic, we've nailed it, can you? Can't.

[James Reid]

I think complacency is a killer.

[Neil Clifford]

You really can't. I. I mean, I couldn't spell it anyway, but the, the. No, I don't do complacency. I'd rather. I'd rather. I'd rather resign and leave my job if I ever got a level of complacency.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

But although you've. You've sold the company once again, very successfully, as I said, for 280. I mean, to a new owner, you're not. You're carrying on, aren't you? I think it's important to stress that. And, and you really love the work you're doing.

[Neil Clifford]

No, it's like one flow of the cuckoo's nest, really. You're allowed to leave, but you don't, you know.

[James Reid]

Allowed to leave. What? You don't. I like that.

[Neil Clifford]

No, I think I, I love my. I love my job. I bounce out of bed at 5am.

[James Reid]

You get up at 5am I'd get.

[Neil Clifford]

Up at 5am Yeah. I go to bed at 9, though.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

I was thinking, I think sleep is really important. If you want to do. I can give you a little list of what's important, but steep certainly is.

[James Reid]

Give us a little list of what's important.

[Neil Clifford]

Social contact, meeting new people. Good sleep, you know, they say bad sleep is equivalent of smoking.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

Six hours minimum. I don't drink. Don't think alcohol is that, you know, clearly I drank as a young person. But you stopped at something. I'm a bit scarred by it. My. My father was, I think, an alcoholic and died very young. So I've sort of got. I've got a, you know, a black mark against alcohol generally. I think we've all. If we've got experience of alcohol negatively in families. I think you. You carry that with you a little bit. And I think that, you know that that moment in my life, age 4, probably, and they, you know, when you sit down on the psychiatrist bench that you have to do every time you're bought by a private equity company, they then sort of grill you for a couple of days to make sure you're not mad or a psychopath or something. Really?

[James Reid]

I didn't.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah, no. You get put through this whole sort of psychometric testing.

[James Reid]

A bit like James Bond reapplying for his job. All that.

[Neil Clifford]

No, all of that, really. Yeah. And I'm always told that, you know, what happened very early in my life is a big, big impact. Which actually is a big impact.

[James Reid]

Must be.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah, yeah. You lose a parent, do you have.

[James Reid]

Any recollection of him?

[Neil Clifford]

Tiny little flashes of almost like. I don't know whether it's real or. I've seen the photograph.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

You know what I mean?

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

You've seen the photograph with you, with him, and you don't know whether you remember that moment or whether you remember the photograph. It's a bit weird, isn't that? So I think I've. I suppose part of that. Not to get too deep in what should be a very sort of positive podcast.

[James Reid]

That's important part of person's development that.

[Neil Clifford]

Well, I think it really is an important part of my energy and drive for, I suppose, proving myself to someone that's not here, maybe.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

Not as if I'm, you know, I'm talking on my feet now.

[James Reid]

I haven't really know, but that's sort of. This comes up when you've done these sort of.

[Neil Clifford]

It always does. Yes. Oh, you know, oh, you lost a parent or. Now we know it's a bit of that.

[James Reid]

There is a high correlation between people who are very successful in life and the tragic loss of a parent.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah. No. Well, I hope my kids don't experience that.

[James Reid]

Yeah, so do I. But it is, it is a. So maybe you said something earlier that really struck me and it's maybe tied to this that you. You're looking for responsibility, maybe it's related, but you like responsibility, seek it out. And that's not, that's not, that's not necessarily commonplace. I thought that was very interesting when you said that. But what also struck me is how much you enjoyed it. You know, maybe more people should be of that frame of mind and look for responsibility because it might be more enjoyable.

[Neil Clifford]

I always wanted to be the boss. You know, I wasn't. I. I was always a hope astute or emotionally intelligent enough to make my boss look great. I discovered that quite early that, you know, to get his or her job, you need to really make them look great.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

So I was never a pain or brought negative energy to anything because then they get promoted. They get promoted. Exactly.

[James Reid]

I think that gets missed.

[Neil Clifford]

And that. Yeah, that's worked for me numerous times, actually. So I've. I've always, I've always, you know. Yeah, I've always wanted to be the boss. I was never scared of that responsibility and frankly, I wanted to make all the bloody decisions.

[Unknown]

Right, right.

[Neil Clifford]

Which, you know, can be a bit annoying for my team sometimes. And I have to sort of slow down a bit and let other people do stuff.

[James Reid]

Are you a big ideas person?

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's part of the dyslexic brain that you see things other people don't often. Yeah, you see solutions, you see. You see opportunities. You think out the box quite naturally, I think walking around and, you know, I spend half of my working week probably in stores, looking at other people's stores or other people's brands and other. Some work never leaves me, to be honest, but I don't want it to. You know, I'm always thinking I'm sort of always at work and always not at work. Yeah, I'm sort of daydreaming. I'm daydreaming and thinking and scheming and it's all part of like every, like, unless I'm asleep, basically.

[James Reid]

Yeah, I'm always. So when you, when you visit one of your stores and talk to your team, what's your favorite question?

[Neil Clifford]

What can we help you with? What can we do better? If you had a magic wand, I was in. I was in America last week. We've got five stores in America now. And my question to the teams there is, write me a list of what Kurt Geiger could do better. How can we help you do 30% more sales?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

And honestly, you're there.

[James Reid]

The answers were in the store.

[Neil Clifford]

Oh my God. You get an hour, you get an hour's stuff.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

Because people in shops are like me, they love talking.

[James Reid]

They're talking to the customers.

[Neil Clifford]

Talking to the customers. And they know our customers better than we do. And to say, tell us what you would do if you're, if you're, if you're the CEO for a day, what would you do? And you'd learn so much. It's magical. And I get paid to do that. I mean it's a, it's a miracle.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

It is a miracle. I'm super lucky, you know, super lucky.

[James Reid]

I can see that that's how you feel, but that's really good. And I like asking similar questions. And you get so many good ideas.

[Neil Clifford]

But we don't know all the answers.

[James Reid]

Definitely not.

[Neil Clifford]

And I think, I think it's a real danger. You do come across people that, you know, think they know the answers or their confidence is higher than their ability. They're the dangerous people really. You know, you need your confidence lower than your ab. Then you, you've got to really be self critical, consciously incompetent, you know, you want, you've got to do.

[James Reid]

Consciously incompetent.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah, whatever.

[James Reid]

You know, I like that phrase.

[Neil Clifford]

You want to, you want to just you, you, if, if you think you're great, you're probably not.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

As good as you think you are. I'm very self critical. I mean, I'm immensely paranoid and anxious about getting fired.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

Always.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

But that makes me try a bit harder, I think, I hope, anyways, it's worked so far.

[James Reid]

It's worked so far. But I mean, but you've delivered consistently, you know, good results. I suppose partly because of that.

[Neil Clifford]

No, that. Yeah.

[James Reid]

Is that fair?

[Neil Clifford]

But now, now I've got. We, you know, I really want. We're subscale as a company. If you look at our competitors, we're tiny.

[James Reid]

So you've got a long way to go.

[Neil Clifford]

A long way to go. We could be, we could be 10 times bigger right now. Honestly. We could be 10 times bigger. We'd.

[James Reid]

Well, that's good, isn't it? I mean, that gives you a lot.

[Neil Clifford]

Exactly. Yeah. We did 3 or 400 million of sales on our Kurt Geiger brand. I don't know, coach is 6 billion.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

As a comparison.

[James Reid]

But they've been in the US longer.

[Neil Clifford]

I guess, of course. So that's great for us.

[James Reid]

That's a huge market.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah. We've only been there three years.

[James Reid]

Are there any other huge markets?

[Neil Clifford]

Yes, the whole of Europe, the whole of Asia.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah, huge market.

[James Reid]

So there's a lot to go at. Well, that's good news.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

Because you've got a new owner.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

So you've got to go again.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah. Excited about it.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

I can't bloody wait. I can see that as soon as this podcast is finished.

[James Reid]

Well, we won't keep you much longer, but I am interested. You have done. You have done quite a lot about. On the. On the philanthropic side to encourage other young people coming into retailing and fashion.

[Neil Clifford]

Yep.

[James Reid]

Talk me through that a bit and what you're doing there.

[Neil Clifford]

Well, in the middle of COVID and we've always tried to be a decent company, even though, you know, people say, oh, private equity must be really nasty, and, you know, capitalists. And we wasn't, you know, I'm a big, big fan of private equity. And we were given the ability to run the company how we wanted in a decent way. But in Covid, when the company was basically bankrupt. My niece is a nurse at the Queen Alexander Hospital in Portsmouth, and we all had our little WhatsApp groups going, didn't we?

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Neil Clifford]

Oh, my God, you know what's going to happen? And she was on the front line of it. And I remember saying to her, if you need anything, let me know.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

And she said, well, some handbags would be nice. Joke. And I thought.

[James Reid]

I was just thinking, what are they going to do with that bags? But then we'll go on.

[Neil Clifford]

Joe, no. And I thought, you know, I'm stuck at home. Bloody Boris had just done that lockdown whenever it was 23rd of April, 2020 or whatever. And I'm right, I'm gonna drive to our warehouse, Kettering, pick up some gift cards and drive them to Portsmouth. That'd be nice. And. And Carrie can give them out.

[James Reid]

That's good.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah. So I did that that morning lockdown day. Still got the photograph. And I just messaged her, go and have a look. Behind the hospital sign, there's a bag of gift cards. Give them out to everyone who's working in A E. And we put it on our Instagram.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

Company Instagram. Because the marketing team, like, oh, it's amazing. You know, we've got this warehouse full of 250, 000 handbags. That we can't do anything with, you know.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

And we thought, right, okay, this is cool, let's do that to every hospital where we've got a store, which we did. We ended up giving away about three or four million pounds worth of Kirk Geiger shoes and handbags through Covid to.

[James Reid]

The staff in the hospital.

[Neil Clifford]

The staff, the hospital.

[James Reid]

That was a great idea.

[Neil Clifford]

And then we topped up, you know, we topped up everyone, all our employees above furlough to their salaries. We, the board gave up our salaries for a year. We did a lot of stuff. And then we thought, as it was coming to an end, we thought, you know what this, Our employees loved the fact that we were, we went down fighting. We did a lot of positive. How do we keep that in the company? This sort of kindness thing. At the same time, we had this amazing handbag, the rainbow handbag that was selling out completely globally. Thank God for America didn't close in Covid, therefore, sort of save the company. Yeah. Carried on. So we, our business was still going and we said, okay, but why don't we start a charity? Why don't we? Why don't we? So took us a year, basically, with the charity commission and we set up the Kurt Geiger Foundation. And we then said, well, we're going to link our loyalty scheme to our foundation. So Kurt Geiger, the company, so not customers. If you shop with us, we put a pound into our foundation, our margin, you know, to fund that. And we, the strategy was, how do we help young people, for whatever reason that they haven't got the ability or contacts or education or geography to break into the creative industry? So going back to my little journey of the, you know, the youth training scheme and all of that and the luck I had and Ralph Halpern and Steve Robinson, there's always one person and all of that. So we then we put a million pounds into. Now it's about 2 million a year we put into the foundation and we started to give away money to other charities that help young people. Then we got a youth council together, some great help from a company called Ag Partners on our strategy for our foundation. And we sat with a load of young people for about six months every Wednesday afternoon. And they told us about all the challenges they had, whether it be peer pressure, family pressure, neurodiversity, education, dyslexia, no family friends that can give you your, you know, your free job in marketing, all these young kids that are so creative that didn't know how to get the posh jobs. And then we Thought, well okay, well we've got this amazing infrastructure. 300 people in a head office in Farringdon. We've got all the skills of marketing, technology, sales, property, store design, merchandising, finance. We're going to build a school. So we're going to educate young people. We're going to provide a free service which we did. We recruited three teachers. Everyone wanted to work from home at that point. We had a load of spare space in the hoppits. We built a little. Come a visit actually I'd like to. We built a school in and we.

[James Reid]

So what do you call it?

[Neil Clifford]

It's our Kurt Geiger Academy.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

And we pilot was last year. 22 young people. Seven of them ended up getting full time jobs with us, which is magic. Now we're up to 50 every six months. So we, we, we have a.

[James Reid]

Do they get a qualification?

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah, it's AQA registered and qualified with the government and all of our teams in the office do the education. So it's real hands on. We can do a whole new great idea. We can do a new podcast, James, on our education system. And now it's not fit for purpose I think in terms of employing.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[James Reid]

No.

[Neil Clifford]

Helping young people get the right jobs. So we've got our teams, our senior managers write the curriculums, they do the education, they present to the young people. Every, every young person has a mentor that they've got access to the whole time. We provide food, travel, everything. It's probably the best thing I've ever done.

[James Reid]

I'd love to go.

[Neil Clifford]

It's really. Yes. Really cool actually. Really cool.

[James Reid]

And we're so how many, how many young people are going through that now? 50 every six months.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

So 100 plus a year.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah. And we're using it as one of our great vehicles of recruitment to be honest.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

And you know I was, I was sat with a young lad called Ryko yesterday who sort of sent me an email and said I'd love to come and talk to you and we've changed his life. He couldn't even get a job at the local post office warehouse. He lives out near Uxbridge and he applied for this, Found it in his job center. He did the six month thing. He passed. We offered him a full time job in digital marketing.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Neil Clifford]

Not a hope in hell would he. We wouldn't have found him. We wouldn't have even knew he existed, you know, because.

[James Reid]

And he wouldn't have found you.

[Neil Clifford]

In the olden. You know we are. Bless our HR team or whatever you Know, we'd be looking for people, people with degrees that had gone to a good university. And actually, degrees are fine, but they're like, they're part of the story. They're not the whole story, aren't they? In many respects, they're. They're not that relevant.

[James Reid]

Well, I think a lot of young people are questioning degrees now because, you know, of their potential irrelevance and because of the cost associated.

[Neil Clifford]

Three years. Three years. I mean, look, my daughter's got a lovely degree and she had a great time at university and it's fine. Degrees are okay, but, you know, they're not that important. No, not really. It's about just as much your emotional intelligence and your ability to work with people and your motivation and your energy and your positivity and your, you know, your ambition and lots and lots and lots of things, isn't it?

[James Reid]

And that that's what you're able to sort of capture and. And help develop in your academy.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah, yeah. As well as skills.

[James Reid]

So you think. You think more companies should have academies or.

[Neil Clifford]

I think so. You know, I think so. I think lots of companies do great stuff.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

I think it's hearing a bit more and more. It's as much about confidence and, you know, I. I look back at my little job in Portsmouth, Debenhams. I'd never really been to London as, you know, been to Buckingham palace when you're age 9 or whatever with the school. But when I moved to London, I had my little Alfa Romeo, another car reference. I used to drive in from Plumstead into central London at night and just drive around and see all these posh offices. You know, the Lloyd's building had just been built and NatWest Tower. And I thought, what do all these people do? I want to be part of this, you know, I want jobs that these people have got. And I think it's as much for young people now. They see all these, you know, kids that have gone to university that have, you know, got their oat lattes and their Apple laptops and they're in little coffee shops doing zoom calls in, you know, Hoxton or whatever. How'd you get those jobs? Unless you've gone to the right university or mum or dad has got you a free internship and they've wangled you through the door. I think it's very, very difficult for young people. People and no one. I don't think you're much smarter just because you've been to university, to be honest.

[James Reid]

No. Well, I would agree, but do you think retail is still a good way in for you. So you obviously have your academy and I think that.

[Neil Clifford]

And I think we as an industry probably need to do a better job and I think the government needs to listen to us more than it does. You know, I think retailers looked down on would be my judgment. And we could really be the fertilizer, the catalyst for a lot of improvement in the economy, frankly, or productivity or developing young people and getting them off a path that maybe is not as positive.

[James Reid]

I think Napoleon Bonaparte made that mistake and he sneered at us saying we were a nation of shopkeepers. You know what happened to him? Yeah, retailers are being looked down on and it's actually really, really important.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah, yeah. So I, I think there's a lot we can. I think a lot. Governments can't do everything, can they? I mean, they're basically skin, aren't they?

[James Reid]

Seem to be, yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

You know, so I think we've got.

[James Reid]

To get on with them.

[Neil Clifford]

Yes, we've got to get on with it.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

Okay, now, hey, I so enjoyed that, listening to your journey and also your inspiring thoughts about how young people can engage now and especially with retail. And you're wonderful academy, which I'd love to visit. So, Neil, you've been CEO now for 20 years and you've got obviously a very long career in retail. What sort of characteristics or approaches do you still use today that maybe you used back when you started out? Or what things do you see as consistencies, if there are any in your.

[Unknown]

Career in that way?

[Neil Clifford]

It's really annoying getting old, isn't it? Because I don't feel any different apart from when you look in the mirror, you know, I've got the same sort of bouncy energy as what I had when I was 20 or 30 or 40. But then you look in the mirror, you go, oh, I am older than I feel.

[James Reid]

So maybe you should ditch mirrors.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. What a mirror's doing, what's the point? Yeah, unfortunately there is no shortcut to heaven, is there? It's daily grind is probably the reality. But treating that as a positive thing, treating that consistency of effort and seeing work as a really positive part of your life, that is progress. And I like to think of it as that. It sounds a little bit cheesy, to be honest. When I'm, you know, I never share this stuff really. Um, but I think I like the. I like routine. I like routine. I like the fact of, you know, I'm predictable, I'm reliable, if not a little bit of a, you know, maybe A bit boring in a way that I just like nudging along, getting a tiny little bit better every day, I think is, you know, is something that. I don't know where that came from. You know. My mother and father were quite different human beings. My mother was a bit of an entrepreneur. She had a shop. She was, you know, she had the gift of the gam. She was a good talker. She was always, you know, she was always up for anything where my, My father was quite a sort of. Not as if, you know, as, you know, I didn't know him, but talking to my. I've got three older brothers. So, you know, I learned about him through them. He was quite a sort of consistent, hard working, predictable guy. And maybe I was lucky enough to get both of the positives from my mother and father into a cocktail that sort of worked.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

And that's. You continue to deploy that cocktail, I think, that way.

[Neil Clifford]

There's no replacement, unfortunately, for consistent hard work and a positive attitude of progress and seeing work as a really important positive part of your life.

[James Reid]

I'm so pleased you say that. I think work needs a bit of PR of its own, really, these days. So many people sort of.

[Neil Clifford]

I'm sort of in. But sometimes I'm a bit embarrassed because it sounds a bit too cheesy. Now I'm this sort of so called CEO y person. But I'm no, I'm no different to the, you know, the toilet cleaner, to be honest. You know, I love, I love that job in the fit garage. I love that job in the hardware shop. I love delivering paraffin to old ladies and having a little natter and a cup of tea. You know, I love selling suits in Bromley on a Saturday afternoon. I saw it as a force of good work and someone said to me yesterday, actually, which is a bit funny, you, you, you, you get progress in life with three things. I'm not sure this is true anyway, but I'm going to say it and you can use it or cut it out. Hard work, brains or good looks. Not to say I've, you know, I've, I've probably got one and a half of those. But I think, I think you, you know, you've got to just face into the wind and get on with stuff and the power of the individual. Don't expect anyone else to give you a leg up, you know, the government's not going to help you. You've got to help yourself, you know, you've got to, you know, and I think, unfortunately, I think we probably lack a Little bit of that as a country at the moment, or we could do with a bit more, you know, I'm in America a lot. An American can be bolted for many things, of course. And I love, you know, the uk. It's my favorite place in the world. London's the best city in the world. But we do need a bit more energy of self progress that, you know, our economy's flatlining, Europe's flatlining. Look at America. The work ethic in America is higher and I think we could look ourselves in the mirror a little bit on that.

[James Reid]

Maybe we need to rediscover that.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah, I think.

[James Reid]

No, I think it was there, but before.

[Neil Clifford]

We've got an amazing set of attributes, haven't we, of a country. Creativity, gmt, the legal system. We're trusted as a nation. You know, we don't have loads of oil or gas. We've got to use our people to create wealth and our hard work and our ideas and, you know, look at our creative industries, music, art, cinema, fashion, music. We've got so much on our side, actually, that we've, you know, I just, I just think we need to wake ourselves up a little bit.

[James Reid]

We need to wake ourselves up a little bit.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

That's a wake up call.

[Neil Clifford]

You know, I agree.

[James Reid]

I think, I think you're right.

[Neil Clifford]

You know, it's a wonderful country. I, when people criticize our country, I get very defensive, particularly, you know, people that aren't from our country. It's like I get very defensive about the United Kingdom because it's an amazing place, but we've gotta, we've gotta face into the wind a bit, you know, we gotta start growing the economy because otherwise there's no money to help the people that need help.

[James Reid]

Well, exactly. So do you think the work ethic has sort of dissipated during the pandemic?

[Neil Clifford]

I don't, I don't, I don't know. I'm not, I'm not smart enough or deep enough to think about it. But I think if we could, we could, I think we could try a bit harder is my instinct.

[James Reid]

We as a community, we every, yeah.

[Neil Clifford]

Every one of us, the nation, we.

[James Reid]

Should all try a bit harder.

[Neil Clifford]

We should all just try a little bit harder. And I think it will. If just try 10% harder, we'd probably be fine.

[James Reid]

I think that's a very, very good message. Let's all try 10% harder. Everyone listening. I think we'll do better. And you're a great role model for that, Neil.

[Neil Clifford]

Well, cheers. I need to try harder, you Know.

[James Reid]

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm going to take that away from this.

[Neil Clifford]

I'm very self critical. I'm, I'm, I'm always very anxious about, you know, what have I delivered today, what, what have I brought to the company this week? I'd get annoyed with myself if I have a wasted day. So I'm sure most people think about their lives like that. I hope so.

[James Reid]

I mean, I'm going to ask you two questions I ask everyone at the end.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah.

[James Reid]

If I may.

[Neil Clifford]

Gotcha.

[James Reid]

The, the first one is what gets you up at 5:00?

[Neil Clifford]

Yes.

[James Reid]

Happens alone at, On a Monday morning.

[Neil Clifford]

Well, Monday's the most important day of retail so I'm, you've, it's, it's a, it's a mix of excitement and anxiety. I don't have an alarm clock. I set it at 4:47 actually, which was the house that I lived in with my mum. But I'm always up before then. I'm, I'm sat there staring at the clock at about 4:40 thinking, Do I turn it off? Do I wait for it to go off? What do I do?

[James Reid]

You're awake at 4:40.

[Neil Clifford]

Yeah, I am, yeah. And I drive in. I live in Buckinghamshire, I drive in because I like driving. Sometimes wish I lived further away to be honest. I drive in for 45 minutes. I go to a lovely little coffee shop in Camden called Salvino, which is a lovely mix of weird people like me. Let me have a little coffee and then I'll play tennis at 7am in Camden for now. And then I come to the office, have a shower and I'm ready to rock and roll by about 8:45. So that's actually, that's every day for me actually, but Mondays are particularly exciting.

[James Reid]

Well that's good to hear. So you've packed a lot in by 9:00?

[Neil Clifford]

I am, yeah. I've done 700 active calories.

[James Reid]

I'm very impressed by that alone. And the last question, which is a question in my interview book, nail it. And it's one of the fateful 15. One of the classic questions that a lot of people get asked is where do you see yourself in five years time?

[Neil Clifford]

Crikey. I don't admit that I'm 58. You know, I'm. I sound 56. I don't count Covid, but if I have to be honest and say 58, so I'd be 63. I hope I'm still here. I hope I'm still here. I do love my job, I'm the only thing I'm paranoid about. Well, I'm paranoid about lots of things, actually, but in terms of my job, I want to go out like Alex Ferguson, let's say, top of your game. I don't want to go out like Margaret Thatcher.

[Unknown]

No.

[Neil Clifford]

So I'm fearful in the back of a car. Yeah. Being dragged out. So, you know, I'm. I'm very wary of when my time is up, and I hope. I hope it isn't. You know, I'd love. It'd be nice to have a little flat in Lake Como and, you know, mess about a little bit or whatever. I don't know what I'm going to do on retirement. I hate the bloody word retirement, to be honest. I don't even like discussing it. So I hope I'm still here, and I hope that I've delivered what our plan says, which is doubling the size of the company. Five years.

[James Reid]

Wow. Well, I'd like to invite you back here, if you are, as I hope you will be, and I hope I am, too, yes. To have that conversation again.

[Neil Clifford]

I'm happy to do that.

[James Reid]

Thank you very much for coming to talk to me.

[Neil Clifford]

Thank you. Thank you.