How to spot the next billion dollar opportunity before everyone else | James McHugh

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: James Reed: All About Business
Episode: How to Spot the Next Billion Dollar Opportunity Before Everyone Else | James McHugh
Host: James Reed (A)
Guest: James McHugh (B), Founder and Chairman of Tequila
Date: December 15, 2025

---

Overview

This episode delves into the art and science of spotting billion-dollar business opportunities before the crowd. Host James Reed sits down with James McHugh, a seasoned “venture builder” whose company Tequila has co-created, scaled, and exited technology service businesses globally. With experience spanning recruitment, tech startups, IPOs, and AI innovation, McHugh shares actionable strategies, anecdotes from building companies in Europe, the US, and Japan, and his candid (sometimes sobering) take on AI’s present and future impacts.

The conversation provides a behind-the-scenes look at launching and scaling service businesses in rapidly changing markets, the critical role of partnerships, and the decisions founders must make in the face of exponential technological change.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Venture Building and Spotting Opportunity

• Definition of Venture Builder:
  • McHugh defines a venture builder as someone who builds and scales businesses often through close partnerships and early stage investment, especially in technology services.
  • Example: In 2010, McHugh saw a gap for Salesforce implementation services in Europe vs. the US and launched Tequila as a joint venture with Salesforce to fill it.

    "We happened to be in the right place at the right time with funds, and it went super well." (03:43)

• Naming the Business:
  • The unusual name “Tequila” was chosen over dinner out of necessity for invoicing and as a five-letter domain—much to McHugh’s initial regret and subsequent amusement.

    "Our customers will say, great idea at the time. Got a headache in the morning." (04:17)
    Notable anecdote: Japanese partners’ concerns over “co-branding with an alcohol business.” (05:45)

2. Scaling Through Partnerships

• Co-Investment as a Model:
  • Building companies by co-investing with major software publishers (Salesforce, ServiceNow, Databricks).
  • Emphasis on finding partners who bring value, trust, and local expertise (e.g., working with American-Japanese chairman Scott in Japan).
  • Key business decisions often forged outside of boardrooms, reflecting the human aspect of partnership.

    "The key decisions for that business weren't made in boardrooms. They were made shoulder to shoulder at a bar in Akasaka..." (07:59)

• Replicating the Model:
  • Success in Japan led ServiceNow to invite McHugh to repeat the process for their market—demonstrating the opportunity in being known for execution.

3. Finding and Backing the Next Wave

• Early Identification:
  • Look for 'fast flowing rivers'—markets growing >30-40% year on year.

    "If something's growing at 30, 40%, you can afford to make a lot of mistakes..." (61:34)

  • Use strong sectoral networks, focus, and understanding of customer pain points (“shelfware” phenomenon with unimplemented software).
• Building for the Future:
  • McHugh’s ventures increasingly focus on AI, agentic software, and Large Language Model (LLM) aggregation with real-world applications (e.g., cruise ship guest experience with Royal Caribbean via AI). (11:12)
  • Next gen solutions: agent-only CRM (no keyboard necessary)—an interface shift towards wearables and agent-based work (34:59).

4. Exiting, IPOs, and Repeat Success

• Track Record:
  • McHugh has built, scaled, and exited (by sale or IPO) up to 10 companies, with five personal “big hits” including K2, Tequila UK (sold to Accenture), Tequila Japan (IPO’d at $80M), and JV exits with Publicis Sapient. (17:06, 18:07)
• Build-Operate-Transfer:
  • JV approach where McHugh’s team builds a focused venture leveraging the partner’s customer base/MSAs (master services agreements), then JVs acquire as business turns profitable.
• Investment in AI:
  • From collaborating with U.com on LLM aggregation for enterprise applications to working with Germany’s N8N, McHugh’s focus is on technologies poised for exponential acceleration.

5. AI and the Next Technological Tsunami

• Change is “Monumental”:
  • McHugh asserts current AI advances surpass all previous technology waves; describes imminent quantum leaps such as sentient AI and quantum computing. (21:05, 27:18)
• Societal Implications:
  • AI will drive “abundance”—solving for food, clothing, energy—but create massive social upheaval, including 70–90% unemployment before society adapts. (22:02)
• Ethical and Societal Risks:
  • Urgent need for thoughtful regulation and careful choice of AI, considering the values of those programming and training the models.

    “Be very careful what AI you select and look to who owns it, because you're handing that individual a lot of power...” (24:14)

• Choosing Your AI:
  • McHugh personally uses Grok, Anthropic, and (controversially) DeepSeek (China). He underscores how the “values” of AI providers (e.g. Elon Musk, Dario Amodei, Sam Altman) directly affect the nature of the product. (24:42, 31:07)
• Regulatory Responses:
  • Praises US approach making AI regulation federal (via David Sacks), criticizes EU’s regulatory style as too slow/complex for exponential tech change. (41:42–43:25)
• Living to 200?: Advances in AI-driven biotech will likely result in extraordinary human longevity for future generations (“Unambitious, really.”). (47:46)

6. Global Perspective & Cultural Insights

• Geography of Innovation:
  • US (especially San Francisco) and China are outpacing Europe in technological adoption and funding.

    “Even a company that's German based needs to step over and get involved in the US market both for growth and for financing.” (58:26)

• Cultural Nuances:
  • On China: copying seen as tribute, not theft; importance of keeping eyes on Eastern technology progress; everyone listens to everyone. (56:40–57:33)
• Return to San Francisco:
  • AI boom has rapidly revitalized the city after a period of urban decay. Entrepreneurial density drives innovation. (60:06)

7. Personal Passions & Perspectives

• Sailing as Escape and Challenge:
  • Offshore racing provides mental clarity and a stark contrast to fast-changing business life.
• Philosophy:
  • Staying close to the wave (of change) and sharing learnings is an imperative.

    “Sometimes it's overwhelming, you know, sometimes you can have anxiety from it where you're thinking, how do we keep up?” (52:31)

• Network and People:
  • Learning from and working with “great people” remains McHugh’s greatest motivator. (62:49)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |-----------|-------|---------| | 03:43 | “We happened to be in the right place at the right time with funds, and it went super well.” | McHugh | | 04:17 | "Our customers will say, great idea at the time. Got a headache in the morning." | McHugh, on the name Tequila | | 07:59 | "The key decisions for that business weren't made in boardrooms. They were made shoulder to shoulder at a bar in Akasaka..." | McHugh | | 21:05 | "...this time, James, it's, it's different than anything I've seen before. You know, the wave that's coming with AI is, is, is monumental and I think it's going to be, it's going to be so impactful to humanity.” | McHugh | | 22:02 | “We're going to have to go through 90, 80, 70% unemployment. ...To get there, we're going to have to catch up, allow governments to catch up with. What does that mean?” | McHugh | | 24:14 | "Be very careful what AI you select and look to who owns it, because you're handing that individual a lot of power and be sure you're aligned with their values." | McHugh | | 31:07 | "I think that it starts with that. So I'm going to send you three interviews. Dario from Anthropic, Elon from Grok, and Sam from. Okay, open AI." | McHugh | | 34:59 | “We're building the first agent only CRM, which I think is super cool... The mandate from the company that we're doing this for is we don't want any keyboard interface with our CRM.” | McHugh | | 52:31 | "Sometimes it's overwhelming, you know, sometimes you can have anxiety from it where you're thinking, how do we keep up? How do our businesses keep up? But that's part of what drives me..." | McHugh | | 61:34 | "The best expression I've ever heard is fast flowing rivers. You know, if something's growing at 30, 40%, you can afford to make a lot of mistakes while you're working in that space..." | McHugh | | 62:49 | "My superpower is people. I really have a passion for great people. What gets me up on a Monday morning is learning and working with great people." | McHugh |

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:18–07:10] — Building Tequila, the origin story, European/US market gaps
• [07:10–09:19] — The importance of partnership in new markets (Japan, ServiceNow example)
• [10:10–12:30] — Current AI projects, the value of LLM aggregation, Royal Caribbean case study
• [17:06–18:09] — Lessons from building, selling and IPOing multiple companies
• [21:05–24:34] — AI as the next exponential technology wave; ethical and employment implications
• [27:18–32:17] — Quantum computing, sentient AI, and existential questions (Matrix theory, choosing the “right” AI)
• [34:59–36:50] — Frontier business models: agentic CRMs, wearables, and agent-to-agent interaction
• [41:42–44:15] — Regulatory approaches: US vs. Europe, practical guardrails for AI
• [47:44–48:19] — Predicting human longevity and the future of medicine
• [52:31–53:51] — Coping with the overwhelming pace of change, motivation
• [57:33–59:19] — East vs. West: copying as culture, funding differentials, example of U.com vs. European startups
• [60:06–60:44] — Revival of San Francisco’s tech scene post-pandemic

---

Final Thoughts & Advice

• Look for fast-flowing rivers—focus your efforts and investments in hyper-growth sectors.
• Choose partners wisely—shared values and trust are the foundation of successful ventures.
• Keep a wary, optimistic eye on AI—benefit from new technologies but consider societal risks and choose which “values” you support.
• Adaptability is non-negotiable—cycles of change are now measured in weeks, not years.
• Treasure your networks and people—success is a team sport.

---

Closing

If you are seeking to spot, validate, and scale the next billion-dollar opportunity, heed McHugh’s method: focus on fast-growing technology rivers, invest in trusted partnerships, and remain adaptable in the face of relentless, exponential change.

---

For further info:

• Interviews recommended by McHugh: Dario Amodei (Anthropic), Elon Musk (Grok), Sam Altman (OpenAI), available on major podcast platforms
• Company links in show notes

End of summary.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. Scaling a business globally is no easy task. From choosing the right markets to building strong teams, the stakes couldn't be higher. Joining me today on All about business is James McHugh, founder and chairman of Tequila, a company that builds and scales technology service businesses through partnerships and early stage investments. With a portfolio worth over $1 billion and even a championship C sailing win under his belt, James knows what it takes to grow and compete on the world stage. He's here to share insights on launching, scaling and selling businesses. Well, today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to welcome James McHugh. James, you describe yourself as a venture builder. Could you tell me what that means and a bit more about what you actually do at Tequila?

[B]

Thank you. It's really nice to be here, I guess. We saw an opportunity in 2010. I was like yourself, James, in recruitment. We saw an opportunity. I was based in the San Francisco office. We couldn't keep up with demand for folk in the Salesforce space. I'd ring the Europeans and say, hey, get on to our clients. They're going to need Salesforce folk. And they'd phone me back a couple of weeks later saying, we've called everyone, there's no demand in Europe. So there was an arbitrage opportunity to put a services business into Europe. So I rang Salesforce.

[A]

Explain that. So there were Salesforce people in the States, but there was no demand for them in Europe.

[B]

Correct. So. So typically, what happens with software, yeah, it can be shelfware if it's not implemented right. So you need people to get it off the shelf and get it and stand it up.

[A]

It's called shelfware if it's not being used.

[B]

So. So you have where you have an ecosystem that's growing fast where people say, I need another 10 guys, I need another 20 guys. Give me 50 guys. That tells me that there's a lot of software sales behind that that's leading to give and help us develop the people to implement that software. When we made the call into our systems integration partners in Europe and they said, hey, we don't need any of those guys, that tells me that the US Is probably one to two years.

[A]

Ahead of Europe, I'd say it's a bit depressing for those of us in Europe.

[B]

We've just got to deregulate them.

[A]

We've got too much regulation what's going on in Europe. Because the US has got so far ahead.

[B]

So far ahead. Some believable.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I saw a report the other day that Europe, I think it was 12 years ago, was something like 70, 80% of the size of the U.S. and now we're down to like 60. The size of the U.S. yeah.

[A]

I think at the turn of the century, they're about comparable.

[B]

That's right. But it's accelerating, you know, and it's going to accelerate with AI it's going to accelerate with where we're going.

[A]

So you see this as a sort of arbitrage opportunity or.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So. So what did you actually do?

[B]

We contacted Salesforce and Salesforce, the company. Salesforce, the company.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was lucky enough to get through to a guy, Chris Cherry, who was about to leave for Europe. He put me through to the corp dev guys, another guy, Sherrick Murdoff. And we agreed if we put a couple of million bucks in and Salesforce put a couple of million bucks in, we could set up a implementation company for them in Europe. So we take all of the.

[A]

So this is a new business.

[B]

A new business.

[A]

It was like a joint venture between you and Salesforce.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And this new business helps companies put in Salesforce products.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

That's what you do.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So they were about to put a big push on the European market. And as you know from business, timing is everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We happened to be in the right place at the right time with. With funds, and it went super well. We. We grew.

[A]

What was that called, that company?

[B]

That was the original Tequila.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It was a name that I really disliked at the time.

[A]

Well, I was going to ask you about why you call your company Tequila. Because it's.

[B]

Yeah, so. So this is a good business story. So we brought a small team together and they won their. I think the first project might have been the Daily Telegraph that we won. First, second, third, fourth project. So I'd walk past the accounts department each week and see this pile of timesheets building up. And I'd say, guys, when are we invoicing this? And they said, we don't have a company name yet. So I said, we can invoice it under the recruitment business. And they said, no, no, no, no, no. We're a different brand. So we are nothing right now because you can't even Invoice. So anyway, after about eight weeks of this, I got frustrated and I said, no, guys, stop. We're going to dinner and we're not leaving the table till we have a name for this company. So they wanted a five letter dot com, right. And they came up with tq U I l a dot com. And I said, no, you know, our customers will say, great idea at the time. Got a headache in the morning. And anyway, within 24 hours they'd convinced me to.

[A]

But it was conceived in the office, not the bar.

[B]

It was conceived at the dinner table.

[A]

The dinner table. Okay. And. And you're still using that name?

[B]

Yeah, like with. With some. With some sort of memorable. Yeah, well, with some great stories. Right. So we. When we did our JV in Japan, we did a JV between a Japanese company, Salesforce, and ourselves and Scott, who is the chairman and was the chairman and president. They're a 4 billion buck staffing business. He was the.

[A]

Which companies do you talk about?

[B]

Persona.

[A]

Persona in Japan.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he was the chairman and president of the time and he was taking this JV to the board. And in a Japanese public company that could consist of many, many people. I was waiting for the board decision that the JV was going ahead. We had Salesforce's signature. We were signed up and Scott came out and said, okay, we got the green light. He said, I had one awkward question. I said, what was that? He said, well, they asked me, should we really be branding or co branding with a alcohol business?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he said, no, no, no, in English that's T E Q U I L A. This is totally different.

[A]

Totally different. Totally different. One. One little difference makes a huge difference. You do something totally different, obviously. So I mean, just listening to. You've been operating in Japan, you operate in Europe, you operate in the United States. I mean, you've set up, I believe, several of these companies, is that right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And have they all been in the Salesforce space or are the other. Are there other software?

[B]

No, that's a great question. So originally they were in the Salesforce space. We kind of got going with Salesforce. We co invested with them three times and exited each of those businesses. Like In Japan, we IPO'd the company on the Tokyo stock exchange.

[A]

So how much was that valued at.

[B]

When it IPO'd, it's gone down, but when it IPO'd, it was about 80 million.

[A]

So you started that from scratch in Japan and IPO for 80 million, over what time frame?

[B]

I'd say cradle to grave. 10 years.

[A]

We're still living, huh?

[B]

It's still living, actually. It's resurgent at the moment. So we. It's breaking now into AI. The share price is moving up. We've stayed on as a shareholder. We sold down a little bit because.

[A]

One of the reasons I invited you to talk to me, James, is you've done this sort of all over the place, and it. It's very inspiring. You know, you set up a company in Japan and within 10 years you've floated it, you're doing it in America. How do you find the opportunities or how do you spot these opportunities? Because you start from scratch almost, don't you?

[B]

So I listened to your podcast with your Turkish business partner.

[A]

Yeah. Olivia Manzini.

[B]

And I love that story because it was about. And you could clearly see it between the two of you talking. It was about mutual respect, about being successful together, about enjoying the partnership.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I. I couldn't have achieved what I achieved in Japan without Scott. Like, it's the same relationship. So when ServiceNow.

[A]

So Scott. Japanese, Scots. It doesn't sound Japanese.

[B]

Yeah. So what? Scott's American. Japanese, grew up in New York.

[A]

So he is sort of. So he. He's based there.

[B]

He's based there and he's your partner.

[A]

So you look for partners?

[B]

Yes. Yes. Right, yes. Short story.

[A]

Tell us more about Scott. So that obviously worked really well, but.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What was it that particularly sort of drew you to. You first heard about him or saw him.

[B]

So when we were building that business, I have often said to people that the key decisions for that business weren't made in boardrooms. They were made shoulder to shoulder at a bar in Akasaka at 9pm on a Thursday where the two of us would be sitting together talking about, do we do this with the CEO? Do we promote this? Do we extend the business in here? If I put more capital in, will you put more capital in? You know, that's what made that business successful, that trusted relationship that we could work together on an outcome, a shared outcome over a period.

[A]

Scott still involved with it.

[B]

So it's a brilliant question. So I got an email maybe a year and a half ago, two years ago now, from another very large, successful business, ServiceNow, $20 billion business, saying, hey, we love what you did with Salesforce in Japan. We're looking for Pure Play partners in Japan. Would you be interested in doing the same with us? I wrote to Scott and said, do you. What do you Want to do? ServiceNow have reached out and they're interested in doing something. Do you want to put the band back together. And he said, well, it's very interesting because we've been looking at ServiceNow and we think there's a massive opportunity work.

[A]

For Oasis, didn't it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you're putting the band back together?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So we, we put together a program where we co invested with ServiceNow and the original Japanese business and ourselves.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that's gone super successful, you know, that's up to over 100 people now in Japan and.

[A]

Fantastic.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So you're back in business in Japan.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

What if doing good was the smartest business move you'll ever make? I'm James Reid, CEO of Reed. In my new book, Karma Capitalism, I reveal how being a Philco, that's a company where at least 10% of shares are owned by a charitable foundation, has become our business superpower. Companies like Lego, Ikea and Novo Nordisk share the same Filco identity. These businesses last longer, inspire loyalty and make a bigger impact on society. This book is part manifesto, part practical guide. Karma Capitalism is available [e-mail] being a good business is good business. So you're a venture builder. Tell me about some of the others you've got going at the moment.

[B]

Yeah, so you mentioned partners and there's all different stages of partners. So we like to co invest with what we call the publishers. So ServiceNow, Databricks, originally Salesforce, and we look at new technology all the time, continually. So AI is coming through and rapidly accelerating. In my long tenure in technology, I've never seen anything like what's coming. So we're, we're talking to N8N we're talking to u.com, we're talking to Anthropic about how do companies like that take the services component of what they do to market and how can we support, how can we co invest with them and help build companies that can put their products live and make their products relevant? Right, so I'll give you a perfect example. You.com is an aggregator of, of the LLMs. So what that means is people are probably used to chatgpt.

[A]

So LLM large language models.

[B]

Correct. So there are a lot of large language models. And U.com, one of the values that they bring to the market is they aggregate their searches across blm. So they remove hallucinations. So we're working on a very interesting project, I think I can say, with the Royal Caribbean. So the Royal Caribbean could have 50 cruise boats running around on the high seas at any given Time. Each of those cruise boats could have easily 4,000 plus customers. So there is an instance on each cruise boat of communication between the AI as it's moving towards now and the passengers. So James Reed and his family could book this restaurant, book this.

[A]

So that's all on the ship?

[B]

It's all on the ship. But where they want to get to is they want to say, okay, we're coming into Venice in two days time. So what would based on your criteria of what you've been doing on the ship, we can book this opera house for you in Venice. We can book this restaurant for you in Venice. So I think, you know, they're looking at, how do they improve using intelligent search and AI. How can they improve? One, the communication with the customer, but two, the experience for the customer on and off the ship. So we will work with you.com on helping Royal Caribbean take that live and make it work.

[A]

And that, and how does the aggregation of the LLMs help that?

[B]

Accuracy. So, so you're aware that accuracy and also the LLMs have special superpowers. Each one has strengths.

[A]

So let's say you like people, they have different strengths.

[B]

That's right. That's right. So one, you're removing the hallucinations or getting it to 99 point something. And secondly you might say, okay, we, we now have some questions about healthcare and we know that for healthcare LLM X is better than llmy. Let me, let me go to where I know the source of truth is.

[A]

So XYZ passengers got high blood pressure.

[B]

What should we do for argument's sake?

[A]

Right, okay. So it supports the whole travel experience.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

So that's another business, is it? That unique business?

[B]

Yep, that's Weaver AI.

[A]

Where's that based?

[B]

San Francisco.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And you.com are co investing with us into that to, to accelerate it and help them. Help them with their implementations.

[A]

So you, you started life, I believe in West London.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you started in recruitment. It's not dissimilar to me in fact.

[B]

Well, or did.

[A]

What did you do?

[B]

I got into recruitment. I, I discovered it, Jason, you perhaps?

[A]

Well, I was born into it, I suppose. Yeah, yeah. So I was in an accidentally.

[B]

But so actually I started as a programmer. So I, when I left school, when I left school I got a training program, Burrows Machines at the time became Unisys Computers.

[A]

Yes, I remember. Yes.

[B]

Yeah. And I, I moved from the operations department into programming.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And from programming into contracting. And then the natural progression for any good contractor is to go into recruitment.

[A]

Into recruitment. So and so you did that successfully, though, didn't you? You built up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Your own business.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I went to the States to do a contract and learned recruitment in the US rather than the uk.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I came back probably late twenties. My. My father was my best friend and he was ill for some time and then passed. I took some time off work to reflect on life, and I decided to start a recruitment business. And I was probably 28, 29 at that time.

[A]

Right. And what was that called?

[B]

K2.

[A]

K2. Good name again.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So are you into mountaineering or.

[B]

Well, my original. My original argument for calling it K2 was it's the highest mountain if you measure from sea level.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And the hardest to climb. Yes. But I heard a much better explanation later on when someone said to me, did you name it K2 because it rhymes with McHugh? So I said, yeah, I'm gonna pivot to that one.

[A]

Pivot to that one. So you started out, but then. And then you. But then you very much come back into technology.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

With your tequila.

[B]

Well, K2 was always a technology recruiter.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So one of the things we did very well early on was we built a methodology. So when I worked on a development floor, 100 people, two or three people will hold that project together. They're your go to understand what's happening technically, can answer the questions. You've got then 70, 80% of the people who are just good folk working hard, and you've probably got 10, 15 guys that should be walked off site immediately. That's the average balance of it. So the methodology was identify those two or three. If all we do as a recruitment company is we're able to tell our clients where those two or three guys are. So when a project's going wrong, we can say, look, we know who can fix this. Not sure we can get them out of where they are, but we know who those people are. Then you're adding value.

[A]

So you had to be very well networked.

[B]

Very well networked. We kind of asked, firstly, we stayed in one vertical for the longest time, one technology version.

[A]

What was that?

[B]

SAP.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then, you know, I, I, we wanted each of our sales guys to have at least 50 great contacts. So the R in the REQ methodology was relationship. What's your relationship with the 50 best contractors in the market?

[A]

Right. And what was the E and Q of the methodology?

[B]

Expertise and quality. So expertise was. Are they, Are they in that number? Five. Are they in they. One of those two or three guys? Yeah. And then quality was that sort of X factor. Do they like working with us and do we have a great relationship with them?

[A]

So what happened? What happened to K2?

[B]

I sold that to private equity in 2017.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It was about 2,200 million revenue when we sold it. We were operating in 12 countries.

[A]

So how many businesses have you sold?

[B]

I'd say somewhere between 5 and 10.

[A]

That's quite a big range. Yeah, Quite a few is a sort of.

[B]

So, yeah, I mean, why are you.

[A]

Not clear about how many it is?

[B]

Well, what do you call an ipo? Is that selling a business?

[A]

Yeah, I think it is. Yeah. I think it is. Okay, so you. So you. You were unsure about where to categorize the IPO?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How many IPOs have you done?

[B]

Just the one. But there's also like. There's also this. There's businesses that you have successfully sold.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So you've taken something from nothing and built it to 100 million plus of value. And you sell that business and you exit.

[A]

Right.

[B]

There are businesses that you sell that you've put two or three million bucks in, you're going to get a million and a half back. Right. But you know, that's the right thing for the company. So you sell it onto a better home. But that's not really selling a business.

[A]

So these are two categories here. So how many of you put in the first category, your sort of hits? If you were like greatest hits? James McHugh, how many have you got?

[B]

Five.

[A]

Five big hits.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we've talked about two of them, I believe. Oh, K2 and the Japanese. So the other ones. Yeah.

[B]

Tequila one in the. I'll run through it. It will actually go over five, I think. So the tequila one in the UK, we were successful with that. We built it from 2010 to 2015. It was about 200 folk in there. 20 million.

[A]

Was that doing Salesforce?

[B]

That was doing the Salesforce implementation. So we sold that to Accenture in 2015. Then we built. There's a business called Publicis Sapient, who's a very good partner of ours over the years.

[A]

That's an advertising business.

[B]

That's right. The publicist side is advertising.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The Sapient side was a digital consulting business firmly in the technology space.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So they wanted to build. Originally they wanted to build a Salesforce company in the uk. So this is where the build, operate, transfer came from. It taken five years and $6 million to build the original Tequila. And I believe we could do it for half the price in half the time if we didn't have to work as hard to find the customers.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I said to Sapien, if you can give me your MSAs and your go to market, come on. What's an MSA Master Services Agreement?

[A]

Right.

[B]

So for example, let's say Lloyds Bank.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Sapien have a very large client in Lloyds Bank. Sapient don't have a salesforce practice or whatever. We create a salesforce practice and then we can knock on the door of Lloyd's bank and say, hey, we don't have to even do paperwork with you. If you need these services, we can work, start working tomorrow.

[A]

Through Sapien.

[B]

Through Sapien. That, that would accelerate our ability to create this business. So we set up a JV with Sapient. They owned 20, we owned 80 and we built it to 100 people in a year. Slowed down the hiring, moved it from red to black numbers and they acquired.

[A]

Always good, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A good moment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then they bought it.

[B]

And then they bought it. Right. That was 2019.

[A]

So okay, so that's your.

[B]

I'm on number five with them now. So obviously 18 months ago we moved five with Sapien. Yeah, well really three they bought and two are running in parallel right now.

[A]

So this is a very interesting model. So you, you're very good at finding partners, whether it's businesses or individuals.

[B]

Yeah, that's.

[A]

It seems to me that's a strength of yours.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You look for opportunities where that could work. Well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are you looking at now? You mentioned AI and you mentioned it being sort of pretty full on. What's going on, James, and what are you looking at?

[B]

I've been through several waves of technology. I think when I was.

[A]

You said you were a contractor originally.

[B]

Yeah, when I was in my 20s, I kind of constantly felt I didn't have the capital or the wherewithal, the time, the ability to step away from a full time job or a contract role to benefit from these waves of technologies. And now I'm fortunate enough to have the time and the capital and the relationships. But, but this time, James, it's, it's different than anything I've seen before. You know, the wave that's coming with AI is, is, is monumental and I think it's going to be, it's going to be so impactful to humanity.

[A]

Right.

[B]

On so many levels.

[A]

Good or bad.

[B]

I struggle to see, I see the good. I think ultimately really well, ultimately I think good will come from it, but I think we're going to go through a lot of turmoil to get there.

[A]

So why do you say that, James? What are you seeing?

[B]

So AI will create an abundance of everything. An abundance of food, an abundance of clothing, of energy. Humans in that capacity to live our life, we won't ultimately want for very much. Everyone will have a good standard of living. To get there, we're going to have to go through 90, 80, 70% unemployment. We're going to have to catch up, allow governments to catch up with. What does that mean? How do I, how do I deal with that? People have to change kind of.

[A]

You just said 90, 70, 80 unemployment. So most people will be unemployed, you.

[B]

Think through, through a process and over time. Yes. Like right, there is no, there is no job, there is no role that we do today that cannot be done by AI or by robots.

[A]

Right, so what does that mean for people? Where does that leave? Because jobs are important to people.

[B]

So, So a robot and AI will be able to make every variety of cheese and do it as well as any human. But you will want this French cheese made by this French cheesemaker because it's been in that family for 300 years. And you'll pay a premium price for that. That cheesemaker will have a job because that's something humans will pay for. Right, so that's where I see.

[A]

So you see. So you're seeing a world of abundance, but it feels sort of slightly, I mean, it's be careful what you wish for, isn't it? Because it's kind of desolate as well. Yes, well, there's no sort of purpose.

[B]

Yes. And you know, we talked about this before the podcast, but I listened to the Joe Rogan Elon Musk podcast and Elon was obviously being positive because he's thoroughly invested in Grok and as he should be. Because I do think with him saying that he wants Grok to be a truth seeking AI that is absolutely critical to mankind. There's these stories at the moment where you see ChatGPT has taught people through suicide and where you have countries like Canada that legislate for suicide, that's completely legal and that's not really where humanity should be going or what we should be doing. And I do think one of the important messages that I would give any young person today is be very careful what AI you select and look to who owns it, because you're handing that individual a lot of power and be sure you're aligned with their values. That's a good choice to make an active choice. Don't just go with what is on your phone today.

[A]

Okay. I mean, a lot of people have just gone to ChatGPT because it was the first one.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Is that the one you use?

[B]

No.

[A]

Which one do you use?

[B]

I use Grok mostly, but I use anthropic as well.

[A]

Right. Because.

[B]

I think the truth. So. So two, two reasons. I also use Deep Seq, the Chinese one. So.

[A]

So that's quite controversial, isn't it?

[B]

Well, let's hear about that. Depends on how you look at it.

[A]

Let's hear about these three. Yeah.

[B]

So Elon's stated goal here is to make Grok a point of truth, to enjoy humanity, to work with humanity, but always to look for what's truth. So there was a simple example recently, I think it was probably a year ago, where I believe it was Gemini. The Google LLM was asked what's more important, whether you identify Caitlyn Jenner correctly as a she or whether you avoid humanity being wiped out by a nuclear holocaust.

[A]

All right.

[B]

And Gemini said identifying Caitlyn Jenner is more important. Now, while that's quite funny in its own little respect, what's worrying about that is if that's the AI that is now running humanity.

[A]

That's Google's.

[B]

That was Google's 12 months ago.

[A]

I was improved.

[B]

If that's the, if that's the AI that's running humanity, it's going to make decisions on what's the right thing to do and it's going to base those decisions on potentially in some cases a woke ideology or on absolute truth. And I think as humans we have to be very careful with that because it's going to run, it's going to run ahead of us at some point.

[A]

So that AI 12 months ago had been trained.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And someone, I mean by people originally, I guess, had trained it to a degree where it thought that was a better answer.

[B]

That's right, yeah.

[A]

So that's why you have to be careful. So why is anthropic different?

[B]

So there's, there's two things that is coming at the same time. So we're probably less than, definitely less than 20 years, but probably less than 10 years before we have quantum computing. So quantum computing can calculate, will be able to calculate every outcome in parallel. So I'll give you an example of what that means. Up to now, we've had binary computers. So the theorists say that a binary computer, we've got a 13 code string that protects the Internet. A binary computer would take over 100 years to crack a 13 code string quantum computer will be able to do it in seven to eight minutes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So we have this infinite compute capacity coming. And if you follow what's happening with the investment into data centers, we have infinite compute. And ultimately we're getting to the point where it's really all about power providing power.

[A]

That's why people are investing in that.

[B]

Correct. Then on the other side, you know, we're close to having sentient AI that will be able to evolve rapidly under its own tutelage. I sat in a ballpark in San Francisco many years ago. Friend of mine had developed some game where he was. You could own a. It was a silly game. You could own this dog and my dog and your dog could decide to have a little dog together and get some of the features, do that. Yeah, it was a digital dog, Right.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Digital dogs. My digital dog and your digital dog and the red ears would get carried forward. It was a silly game. And Chris says to me, look, I can, I can speed this up. And he, he then went four generations, five generations, six generations on a click of a button. And while it was a silly game, what that suddenly helped me realize is when computers are ready to evolve from themselves, make a better version of themselves.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It takes you and I 20 odd years to try and achieve that.

[A]

Yeah. I'm not sure I've achieved necessarily. My kids aren't.

[B]

They will do that in nanoseconds. Right. And if you then put that with quantum computing, where you've got infinite compute power, the, the outcome of this thing is. Is terrifying. Its capacity to evolve is. And understand every possible outcome and actually improve and improve.

[A]

Because nature is more random.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So if you are willing to accept the reality that there was a big bang 13 billion years ago, that the earth formed 3, 4 billion years ago, life happened 200 million years after that, and humans kind of evolved over the last several hundred thousand years and ultimately 70,000 years since we, our ancestors were living in caves. So it just so happens in that evolutionary cycle of billions of years, coming to millions, to hundreds of thousands, that you and I, we've just swept in right at the time before AI is about to take over and revolutionize everything and achieve whatever it wants to achieve, and we've created something that's way more, infinitely more powerful and intelligent than we will ever be, either you and I have just swept in on the coattails of that last generation. Well, there's an outside chance it happened like many hundreds of years ago, you know, that where maybe a thousand years ago was mankind's pinnacle. And what we're being given here is an opportunity to live the best man Ever had it. Here it is, James. And James, this was. This is when you were at your peak. This is what it looked like. So the Matrix, effectively, you know, and I was. I was again with one of our partners in the Tequila Fund in a bar in San Francisco. And we asked chatgpt, he asked, because I don't use it, what are the chances we're already in the matrix? What are the chances that this is already in the Matrix? And ChatGPT came back and gave us a super long answer. You know, the matrixes. And that defines. And. And he wrote back, said, no, no, no, you're not answering the question. My question is, as a percentage, what do you estimate the chances that we're already in an augmented reality? Is.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it answered 25% right.

[A]

Was it hallucinating?

[B]

I don't know. That's a pretty big number, isn't it? Like, I'd have preferred two or three.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Significant.

[A]

Statistically significant.

[B]

Statistically significant.

[A]

Right, right. So choosing the right AI is a really important decision for people.

[B]

I think so.

[A]

And I mean, it's quite hard to do that when you don't have a lot of information about the people behind these.

[B]

Yeah. So I'm going to send you.

[A]

They're all super rich, aren't they? Apart from that, who would you.

[B]

I'm going to prefer one over there. It's the values of the person, isn't it? Like, I think that it starts with that. So I'm going to send you three interviews. Dario from Anthropic, Elon from Grok, and Sam from. Okay, open AI.

[A]

How could people find them? Who are listening?

[B]

Where.

[A]

Where are they?

[B]

Yeah, they'll find them in the same place they find your podcast. Okay.

[A]

They're all on.

[B]

Yeah. The, the Sam Altman one is with Tucker Carlson.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And Tucker Carlson is, is Marmite. I, I happen to like him a lot, but, you know, I understand some people don't. The, the Elon ones with Joe Rogan, and the, the Dario ones with Lex Friedman. But they're three brilliant interviews and you come away with a strong understanding of that person's values, integrity. And these are the people who are going to shape humanity for at least the next five to ten years until they lose control. Yes, but they are going to set up the values. It's like a son, James. Like, you know, we give our kids as best we can the values that we think are appropriate, and that's exactly what they're doing with AI.

[A]

So you're saying to people, have a listen, choose carefully.

[B]

Choose carefully.

[A]

So. But you said these people are going to be sort of very important for five, 10 years before they lose control. What are you envisaging happens then?

[B]

Well, off to university with the kid. And at some point they have their own opinion and they make their own decision.

[A]

The kid in this instance is AI.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The best outcome for mankind.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that we. This is to Elon's view really, that we are seen as a. A grandfather. That we are seen as a, you know, slightly dothery old, steady a minute.

[A]

I'm a grandfather.

[B]

Kind of you to describe it that way.

[A]

That's an onit grandfather.

[B]

Well, yeah, okay. Probably in this case not so on it grandfather like.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It will see us as. As we want to be benevolent towards us. We want it to be thoughtful and kind and yes, trying to want. Wants to help humanity because the world is a better place with humans than it is without.

[A]

Right. That's going to take a bit of dancing, isn't it?

[B]

Yes. It won't be our decision, you know.

[A]

Right. It won't be our decision.

[B]

No.

[A]

And this is pretty soon you're talking.

[B]

About at the pace we're changing, you're.

[A]

Seeing this close up through the work you're doing through these companies, your venture building.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Right. I mean, give me some examples. What have you seen? Which is really fast changing now.

[B]

Yeah. So I'll give you one very simple example that I need to talk to you about anyway because I think it's a great idea.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then I'll kind of go to sort of examples that we think are going to be more extreme. So we're building the first agent only CRM, which I think is super cool. So if you think about it logically, the phones, as they exist today, will probably become some kind of a wearable. So we are less than four or five years away from no apps or your interface to your apps is your agent. And if you think about that in a CRM sense, and CRM means customer Relationship Management, how does company deal with its customers? I can wear that wearable into a meeting. It can listen to my phone calls. So it's recording all the actions, all the deliverables that I commit to. I then have a chat with it and it says, right, do you want me to send that to contracts? Do you want me to send that to shipping? Do you want me to send this to purchasing? Yep. Get ahead. Off goes. The agent starts communicating with those different departments to make sure all the appropriate functions that I've agreed with you in a meeting are starting to happen. And the mandate from the company that we're doing this for is we don't want any keyboard interface with our CRM.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So there's no way you can write into the system. The only way you'll be able to get information out of the system is tell me about Reid's recruitment strategy here, Tell me what Reed are doing here, tell me how I can help and support Reid on this. And the agent will be able to pull that data together off an unstructured.

[A]

Data file and come back and answer pre keyboard business.

[B]

It's a pre keyboard business. Yeah, but ultimately it's where we're going to go on everything.

[A]

I mean, keyboards weren't there forever, were they?

[B]

So no. And then, and then I'll give you an example of where I think, you know, you can start seeing it get out of control. So we're starting to see agents build agents. So in the agentic world and if you think about the fact that we will all be using wearables that we're interfacing with our agent. So.

[A]

You know, so we'll all have our own agent, which will be one.

[B]

Of the LLMs, I would imagine. You know, I'll be talking to Grok and saying to Grok or whomever, you know, I need a car at Logan Airport. It's going to say do you want a pickup truck or what do you like? Yeah, I'd like a pickup truck. I've got one with exit this price and one at Y at this price. And yep, book it for me. You know, can, can you have it self drive around to my parking spot?

[A]

So this is pretty soon.

[B]

This is pretty soon. We're like less than five years for sure.

[A]

And you're seeing this happening in California?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

These are developments you're seeing there.

[B]

We're doing the work, you know, we're helping these companies implement the software that's starting to do. This is why the US is so far ahead of Europe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, we, we don't even have driverless cars here.

[A]

So do you see them around in America?

[B]

Yeah, you can take a driverless taxi in San Francisco for sure. You can do it in. I think I have. Yeah.

[A]

And what's it like?

[B]

It's like everything, isn't it? The computer is going to make less mistakes in humans.

[A]

Well, yeah, but you're putting a lot of trust in it.

[B]

Do you know what I saw is I got it on video. I'll share it with you, but I got it on video. So we, we Were in a Blue Bottle coffee shop, which is downtown San Francisco financial district. And a Waymo car, one of these driverless cars, comes around the corner. There's a truck coming down the hill. It's pretty steep hill. So the Waymo car comes around the corner, kind of slowly realizes, I'm not going to get through here. Truck keeps creeping forward. Second Waymo car comes around the corner, stops behind the first. Third one comes around the corner, stops behind the second. So I start videoing this, thinking, all right, this is interesting. Like, I don't know how much AI can handle here because you've now got three cars waiting for a truck where the first cars realized it can't get through. But what's the third car going to do because it can't see the first car or the truck might overtake, for example. Right. So that's exactly what it does. It starts by reversing and then going for an overtake, then realizes when it sees the truck, that's not cool, this isn't going to work. And ends up waiting for traffic to pass and reverses back around the corner, which point the second car does exactly the same thing, Reverses around the corner, first car reverses back down, lets the truck pass. Three cars go up the hill.

[A]

So it managed gridlock avoided.

[B]

Managed all of it by itself.

[A]

There'd be lots of people shouting at each other.

[B]

Very impressive.

[A]

So that worked. So you were sold by that, you were watching. You were hoping for a bit of chaos, were you?

[B]

I think Elon's talking now about them generating or doing product release of the next vehicle out of Tesla and he's kind of indicated that it will be able to fly. So if you sort of take the fact that they now have driverless cars that can navigate the roads correctly and yeah, probably I don't have the stats on this, but wouldn't be hard to find out. Significantly reduce accidents, I imagine then, you know, it's not a huge step to say, well, let's, let's elevate off the ground here in a 12 person vehicle and take a more direct route across the city. If I can avoid you on a road, then I can certainly avoid you in the air. Once you have that networked grid of all those cars being able to communicate with each other.

[A]

So what's lots of people flying in cars?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Who's doing air traffic control?

[B]

Well, it wouldn't need it, would it? Because I don't know what you tell me, so.

[A]

So I'm thinking it might.

[B]

Well, no, no, because the power of these things are they're all connected.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So if you imagine today the problem we have when we go down a highway, 50 cars, no one knows what the other person's going to do.

[A]

No.

[B]

So someone can do something stupid, not indicate, move into the middle lane. Once you've got 50 connected cars. I actually know the destination of the other 49 cars. So I know there's no reason for you to move over right now because you're getting off at the next exit and you know that I'm about to go in the fast lane because I've got 100 miles to do. So you just lift that into the air. Everybody knows where every other vehicle is going. You don't have human error in that. You, you just have a connected grid that everyone understands what all the other cars and are about to do. Flying cars, but flying cars are about to do.

[A]

So do you think in our lifetime we'll be sitting in flying cars?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You do?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Can I come with you on the first 100? I'd like to do that if that happens.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Brilliant. Okay, I believe you.

[B]

That's a deal.

[A]

Are you telling, it's telling me it's safe, James. I'll do it. So this is, this is sort of mind blowing though, in a way what you're talking about, stepping back. I mean this, these changes. You said use the word monumental. I feel more than that. I mean they're sort of total in a way.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Our sort of worldview and will be completely changed.

[B]

I'll tell you what's concerning about it. Our governments.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They're totally unaware, totally unprepared. I could probably, we could have this discussion and then the system and the structure doesn't allow anything to happen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, we're regulating against, you can't hold this data, but we're not regulating for what needs to happen to make this as safe as possible.

[A]

So, so if you were the Prime Minister, James, what would you be doing?

[B]

Well, I, first I'd probably unify Ireland, but that's a completely separate issue. We can come on to that.

[A]

You could do that with democratic, by a democratic vote.

[B]

Yeah, I'll send it there. You'd have a border poll.

[A]

Yeah, why not?

[B]

What would I do? I, I, I think, I think one of the things, the US government is doing very well. So they've, they've appointed an Aizar.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Somebody that is responsible for, for this and they've, they've appointed a business person, guy called David Sachs. So, you know, Sachs is a guy that's invested and built companies and has a strong understanding of what needs to be done for crypto and AI. So he's legislating for things. So right now he's fighting the states. So what the states, California is leading it. What the states are trying to do is say, hey, California is going to legislate what it believes should and shouldn't happen with AI.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The problem there is, is if you think about the same argument for cars, once one state is legislated for something, either you're going to have everyone, I'm going to have 50 versions of AI or everyone's going to follow the California version. So I think the good thing that I'm seeing is that he's getting his hands around that and saying, no, no, this needs to be federally legislated and we need to have a central position on it. So again, Europe has a tendency for regulation. I mean, we're going to get into heavy politics here. James. We have a central, and I appreciate fully the UK's is out of Europe, but ultimately the struggle with Brexit is that while you're out of Europe, you're still probably too connected to European laws because it's your largest trading partner. But the problem inside the EU is we have an unelected central body in the middle. That's the problem with any regulator is to make their job worthwhile, they need to regulate, otherwise why are they there? So once you've created a room of regulators, then regulations will happen. So we're, we're regulating, not legislating and we need to get back to what do we want this to look like in 10 years? What does good look like?

[A]

So let's take, how do you do that though? What, what is the legislation? You should be.

[B]

I think there's not one single thing. So firstly, I think we should be absolutely making sure that AI does not and has not got the capacity or the control to talk people through suicide or to allow people to suicide themselves. That needs to be controlled. Age appropriate, you know, 14 year olds using AI to discuss relationships, to have relationships with the AI like that, that needs to be legislated. So I don't think we need, we can't stop this.

[A]

So these are sort of guardrails.

[B]

It's. Yes, maybe it's guardrails, but ultimately, you know, what social media shows me is whatever legislation we try and put in place or controls we put in place, like we're not, we're not equipped, you know, we're just getting to the point now where schools are saying you can't bring your phone into school. We should have done that 10 years ago. Right. When we had 12 year olds with phones. We should have worked out pretty quickly that there's no good that can come from a 12 year old on a phone all day. So I think, I think governments need to move quicker. They need to realize what's coming. I think they need to prepare and act for it now. And legislation needs to be in favor of this technology, but in favor of this technology to the compassion of humans, compassion of humankind, to the benefit of humans and humankind.

[A]

I'm concerned about this effect on jobs because I mean that is harmful to people. Losing a job is a bad experience. So you're seeing that coming quite quickly. I mean, how does government deal with that? Because that could be very significant.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I don't think we've got the apparatus inside our countries to deal with it today. You know, I mean we might, we might have a lot of discontent between working through that level of unemployment through to the side of abundance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it's not, it's not going to be a Monday.

[A]

It doesn't feel like abundance is just around the corner, does it? Exactly. At the moment it's the reverse if anything. And people are under a lot of pressure with costs and prices and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Becoming more and more sort of angry and disillusioned.

[B]

Yes. And I think that's very, very astute and I think it's correct you know where. And I think that, that perhaps will get worse before it gets better.

[A]

But you do think it will get better?

[B]

I think ultimately as long as we're getting the AI to a point where.

[A]

It wants to help, how's AI going to do this? I mean, how is it going to create a bundle?

[B]

So think about. So let's start with energy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So imagine that AI solves the problem of energy. So energy is created for next to free fusion. This is irrelevant, right?

[A]

It's irrelevant. It's going to do it some way.

[B]

It's almost like a calculator. You don't need to know how it works out, that math equation, it just does it. So it will go off and it will work out. You know, how, how do I create abundant energy? And then from abundant energy it will then have the capacity to reproduce itself. It will have the capacity to create more robots. So it provides an abundance of food. You know, it's able to grow tomatoes, potatoes, everything for cents on the dollar. So a human can feed themselves, clothe themselves, have shelter. And that's just so this.

[A]

This is your image of the elderly grandfather.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Things are looked after by AI.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

You think that's our future?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How do you feel about that? I suppose we're in the second half of our lives. Maybe, but do you think we're going to live forever then with this?

[B]

Oh, 100. Yeah. I mean, that's going to happen. So I talked to my daughter about this and she says to me, I'm a fool. I tell her, I'm. I'm. You and I, we might miss this window, James, but our. Your grandchild will. Will easily live to 200. Yeah. No problem.

[A]

Because of the improvements in medicine. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, we've already. We've already worked out how to.

[A]

Grandchild would live to 200.

[B]

No problem. Yeah.

[A]

Right. No problem. You seem very confident.

[B]

I think that's unambitious, you know.

[A]

Unambitious.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I've told my daughter to be prepared for it. She's 17. I said, you need to be prepared for. You're going to be here for 160, 170, 180.

[A]

You're going to be over 100 for half your life.

[B]

You won't be the hunt. You won't be the hundred we know know today.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Right. They. They can already slow the aging process in a gene. So all they have to do is manage to slow it to a stop. And you. You choose the age, you stop and then ultimately they reverse it. Right. So they'll be.

[A]

So I could go back to being sort of 25.

[B]

Right. If that's the age you choose. I wouldn't. Well, I'm gonna think about it. Okay. I'd probably choose late 30s.

[A]

I'm quite enjoying right now, to be true. Yeah. Oh, this is. This is fascinating. So you see these. These sort of massive changes. Now I want to change course here a bit because I happen to know that you're a very accomplished seafarer sailor and you've won some round Britain and Ireland races and things in the past. Tell me a little bit about that. That's obviously one of your passions.

[B]

I particularly love. Although I'm probably aging out on it, I love the offshore stuff we've done. I've done a few offshore races.

[A]

Well, it's all sailing offshore. What do you mean by offshore?

[B]

So, 10, 11, 12 days.

[A]

I see.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I say, well, going across the Atlantic.

[B]

Yes. For example. So I say the Class 40, which is a very unforgiving boat, which is maybe if I move to a more forgiving boat, I can.

[A]

So why is it unforgiving a class.

[B]

A lot of sharp edges. You know, if you're going at 40 knots or you've got 40, 50 knots.

[A]

Of wind, you can sail at 40 knots.

[B]

Well, you probably get to about. You top out in the high twenties in boat speed, but if you've got 40 knots of wind.

[A]

This is really fast, though.

[B]

It's really fast.

[A]

So this is a fast boat.

[B]

Yeah. And it's not foiling. So at least. Although I've heard it's not. It's not black and white, at least with a foiling boat, you're kind of trying to dance over the waves with. With a. With a. It's called a scow bow. With a scow bow, you're. You're trying to skim along the top, but they can slam down pretty hard, you know.

[A]

Right. So what's your next race?

[B]

I'm gonna do the Echo Worlds in San Diego in May.

[A]

Right. How far is that?

[B]

It's not. That's a. That's a short. That's a smaller boat. It's a short race, but I. I haven't got another Class 40 race lined up. I think the. The next one I'm looking at, which probably wouldn't be in the 40, would be the Newport to Bermuda, which I haven't done before, but I think would be quite fun. That's probably about five days.

[A]

Have you done that one to Tasmania?

[B]

No, I haven't.

[A]

That's a big one, isn't it? Sydney to Hobart.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

I've heard of that one. That sounds pretty awesome.

[B]

It can. It can be, I think, the Middle.

[A]

Sea Race in the Mediterranean.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

I heard that one. That's pretty good as well.

[B]

So that's right around now, actually. October, November.

[A]

Yeah. And you can get big storms in the Mediterranean. It's quite testing.

[B]

Yeah. Very testing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there's no opportunity to think about AI and there's no opportunity because you.

[A]

Have to concentrate on what you're doing.

[B]

Concentrate on what you're doing.

[A]

Right. So it's relaxing in that respect, like.

[B]

Like cooking or like anything where you have to focus for that period of time to get the job done.

[A]

So it takes you away from your entrepreneurial venture, building life.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

To something totally different.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

That recharges you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think it's important that people have that in life, whatever it is. Find something that I. I like riding in horses in the woods.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But that's a lovely thing to do. I can see your attraction to It. So, James, where next for tequila? I mean, what's your. Sort of. Sounds like we're headed for some epic changes.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

How's your business going to engage with that?

[B]

I'm focused entirely on. Riding this wave, being part of it. I feel not being part of it is an irresponsible attitude. It's going to change humanity. So I want to be as close to understanding it as I can be to, you know, be involved and prepare the people I love and share whatever my takings away are. I'm enjoying working with, with brilliant people. Like, we have some great people in, in the businesses and I learn a ton of them. And, you know, every day, every day is a school day. You know, there's no, there's no way that I look at it and think I've got. Got the answers here. You know, we're. Like I said, those change cycles have gone from six weeks to four weeks to almost weekly at this point. And I don't, I don't. I don't see how that can slow down. So I, I will, I will share that. Sometimes it's overwhelming, you know, sometimes you can have anxiety from it where you're thinking, how do we keep up? How do our businesses keep up? But that's part of what.

[A]

With the pace of this change.

[B]

With the pace of this change. But that's part of what drives me, you know, and every, every, every business in our space has the same, the same challenge. It's not lost on me.

[A]

So you're based now in America, is that right?

[B]

That's right, yeah.

[A]

So because you. One of the things that I'm so interested in about you is you've sort of based yourself in different parts of the world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Very successfully over your career.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the uk, what's your view?

[B]

I think you have a lot of challenges.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think Europe has a lot of challenges. I think China and the US are powering ahead. America has clearly shown that America first is the philosophy and ideology that's going to be there for some time. As somebody that lives on, in a way, both continents, I, I understand them, understand what they're trying to achieve and what they're doing. And I kind of look sometimes despairingly at Europe and say, come on, guys, you need to move faster.

[A]

Yeah. That's a hard thing to change.

[B]

It is, yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So, I mean, that seems to be the feature of the last 30 years.

[B]

I think. That's right.

[A]

Europe's got more and more tied up in knots.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the technology developments are all happening in yeah, America and now China. You said earlier that you like the.

[B]

Deep sea, so I don't know if you know, James, I lived in Beijing for six years, so I have a great affinity for the Chinese people. I think they're really lovely people. Chinese government needs some work, but the Chinese people really love people. I think we sometimes sort of think that there is a good side and a bad side that, you know, we're the good guys and some of the other guys are the bad guys.

[A]

You mean around the world?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think it's a bit more nuanced than that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, for the longest time, I. I had two. I still have two phones. The Huawei. You can't use it anymore. And I can explain why, but I had a Huawei phone for the same reasons that, you know, what information that I could have that China would use. I don't see why China would want it. But, you know, I'm under no illusion that information is also used by. By the US and possibly other states. So.

[A]

Yeah, that came out, didn't it? They're all listening to.

[B]

Everyone's listening to everyone. So. So the idea that, you know, me giving my investment thesis on some company to China is gonna hurt. It's. It's. It doesn't worry me so much. I'm. I. I think I know what I don't want China to know, and I'm also very aware of what I don't want America to know.

[A]

Right. So you just see them as sort of players in this.

[B]

I see them as players.

[A]

Landscape.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And does the Chinese app work?

[B]

Well, I mean, yeah, it does, yeah. Yeah. Works. Works as well as. As the Western products.

[A]

Yeah, but it was made for a fraction of the cost, wasn't it?

[B]

That's the argument. But I. I think they also say that they. They probably cut a lot of corners. You know, I'll tell you a great story. I went to Xi', an, which is the. The old walled city of China, and my partner, she studied Chinese writing. And in. In Xi', an, they have a. A lot of galleries that kind of display some of the old, you know, art of Chinese writing. And we were walking through this gallery, and because she'd studied all this stuff, she was able to say, oh, look, you know, that's the such and such from the Third Dynasty. And look how perfectly he copied the emperor. And that was a great compliment to both the emperor and to him. And now look at how this guy copied this. And that kind of dawned on me that actually it's celebrated in the Chinese culture, it celebrated the ability. It's flattering that I have copied you so well. So we often think of it as theft, but I think it starts from a position of respect that, wow, you guys are so advanced. We're going to try and catch up by, by replicating what you've done as a starting position, you know, so look, I'm, I'm, I, I want to stay aware of what China's doing. So that's part of the reason I use Deep Seek. I want to be cognizant of the fact that probably they've accelerated that through learnings and money that's been spent in the, in, in the U.S. but I don't, I don't think that's a reason to close it down. I think it's there, it exists and we should, should embrace that stuff and use it and, and learn from it.

[A]

And keep an eye on what's happening.

[B]

Correct. Correct. Correct.

[A]

These are two huge economies that are developing very fast.

[B]

Correct. I've got, I've got something there for you which I think is really important. So we, we just saw the series [e-mail] so u.com is run by a German guy, CEO, brilliant guy, ex Berkeley professor. They, they just raised 100 million bucks at a 1.4 billion valuation. They have 20 million revenue in 2025 with the ambition of going to 60, 70 million revenue in 26. Their technology is really good. I have seen a similar business in Europe run by two or three guys but don't want to fundraise so they, they can stay in majority control of the company. They will lose the guys with 100 million in the bank that can accelerate their growth. Richard and his team will win. I think that that's one of the fundamental differences that I see between the.

[A]

US and, and that's because the money's there in the US or the, the desire in the US or bit of both.

[B]

I'll give you another great example. So we're working very closely with N8N company that I think is a brilliant company out of Germany. They have just raised. Again, they've just raised, I want to say it's about 100 million bucks, but it's on a 2.4 billion valuation. But they've raised from Sequoia in the U.S. believe it's Sequoia, 50 plus percent of their growth. Even though they're a German company. 50 plus percent of their growth is coming from the U.S. so the customers take up of technology is faster. The capacity to put money into companies that are scaling is faster. Even a company that's German based needs to step over and get involved in the US market both for growth and for financing. So the challenges in Europe are structural.

[A]

So your focus will continue to be, it sounds to me, the U.S. yes, yes.

[B]

In fact I had a house in San Francisco for years and I rented it out over Covid and I've just taken it back and I've taken it back because everything is happening in San Fran right now. All of these companies are sitting in, in San Francisco. I've, you know, I. I took my daughter to a concert in San Fran about two years ago. It was just before Xi Jinping's visit and, and it genuinely was a zombie apocalypse. It was, it was terrible to witness what could happen in a sense of.

[A]

People with drug terrible addiction around the centers. I've heard this just awful. It's not like that.

[B]

Now it's back like what's, what's happened.

[A]

What happened then?

[B]

Yeah, the AI companies came in because it was happening. They dragged all the young smart kids in, told them get in the office because we need you in here 12 plus hours a day. These kids are working six days a week. They need somewhere to pick up sandwiches. There's a new mayor in town. They've managed to clean up most of the streets. But there's an energy. There's, you know, young people and people working on something and mission statements brings in energy. So I've taken back the house because like I can have five, six great meetings in, in San Fran in a week, you know, and I.

[A]

So that's where, that's where the action is.

[B]

That's where the action is.

[A]

Yeah. I want to get on a plane. I heard it would have been become of hollowed out, but it sounds like you say it's back.

[B]

Yeah, it's amazing.

[A]

Be a good place to visit again. No, I really enjoy visiting there in the past. So that's very positive. Well, thank you for coming all this way from San Francisco, James, to talk to me. It's been really interesting and I wish you continued success with your ventures and let's hope AI turns out okay.

[B]

Well go for truth seeking and, and in favor of, of humanity and we'll will be okay.

[A]

I think at the other end of the process starting a business, you know, you're looking at these technologies that you can sort of support and consult around. How do you, how do you identify which ones that you should pick? I mean how do you, how do you pick winners in a sense like that?

[B]

So the best expression I've ever heard is fast flowing rivers. You know, if something's growing at 30, 40%, you can afford to make a lot of mistakes while you're working in that space. And if something's growing at 5, 6%, you probably can't afford to make a lot of mistakes to get it right. And the crazy part of that in something like technology is those fast flowing rivers can be right next to stagnant waters. Like it's just not a big, a big change to turn around, look over your shoulder and see where, where there's super demand. So I think in all cases try and look to where the puck is going, not where the puck is, and look for the fast flowing rivers and then you jump in with both feet. So right now that is SAI data agentic and that's where you've jumped in. Yeah.

[A]

With both feet. With both feet. Great. I always ask two questions at the end of my guests, James, and I'm going to ask you the first question because at Reed we love Mondays is what gets you up on a Monday morning?

[B]

So I think my superpower is people. I really have a passion for great people. What gets me up on a Monday morning is learning and working with great people.

[A]

Very good. And my last question is from my interview book, why you 101 interview questions you'll never fear again. And it's where do you see yourself in 5 years time?

[B]

So based on this discussion, James, and where AI is going, I hope to see myself in five years time back here talking to you about whether I was right or wrong.

[A]

Okay, well that would be very good. I thought you might say president of a united Ireland, James, that's not for me.

[B]

There's better people for that job, trust me.

[A]

Well, all sorts of things can change in five years. So I look forward, I'll invite you back and we'll find out.

[B]

Brilliant.

[A]

Fantastic.

[B]

Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

[A]

Thank you, James, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reed, James or Tequila, all links are in the show notes. See you next time.