The world's #1 clinic for the rich and famous: Spotting the signs before it's too late | Jan Gerber

Summary

Podcast Summary: James Reed: All About Business Episode: The World's #1 Clinic for the Rich and Famous: Spotting the Signs Before It's Too Late | Jan Gerber
Release Date: March 3, 2025
Host: James Reed
Guest: Jan Gerber, CEO of Paracelsus Recovery

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Introduction

In this enlightening episode of All About Business, host James Reed engages in a candid conversation with Jan Gerber, the CEO of Paracelsus Recovery—the world's most private and discreet addiction and mental health clinic catering to the elite. The discussion delves deep into the mental health challenges faced by entrepreneurs and business leaders, offering actionable insights to help listeners recognize and address these issues effectively.

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Common Mental Health Challenges Among Entrepreneurs

Jan Gerber begins by highlighting the multifaceted mental health issues that entrepreneurs and business leaders commonly face. Unlike the often-simplified public narrative, the challenges are complex and interwoven.

Jan Gerber [02:00]: “It's normally complex and messy... burnout is an issue. Lots of stress can lead to that. Often there is depression, anxiety that plays a role... there is often a layer of substance use issues on top of that.”

He emphasizes that there isn't a single predominant issue; rather, leaders often contend with burnout, depression, anxiety, and substance abuse simultaneously.

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Recognizing and Approaching Burnout

The conversation transitions to understanding burnout, a prevalent issue among high-achievers. Jan outlines early symptoms that entrepreneurs should be vigilant about.

Jan Gerber [03:13]: “Early symptoms often is sleep goes first... increased irritability, reliance on substance, brain fog, anxiety that creeps in that were not there before.”

James Reed shares personal experiences with sleeplessness, underscoring how persistent sleep disturbances can signal deeper problems.

James Reed [04:17]: “Something's a problem when it becomes a problem by being awake at three in the morning.”

Jan advises that maintaining quality sleep patterns is crucial and that consistent sleep disruptions warrant professional attention.

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The Link Between Addiction and Mental Health

Exploring further, Jan discusses addiction as a form of self-medication:

Jan Gerber [07:14]: “Addiction is often self-medication. It's when there's an underlying problem—stress, trauma, personality disorder—that creates emotional pain.”

He clarifies that addiction typically arises from attempts to cope with severe emotional distress rather than habitual substance use alone.

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Entrepreneurial Traits and Their Dark Side

Jan delves into the inherent traits of entrepreneurs that, while driving success, can also predispose them to mental health issues.

Jan Gerber [12:28]: “Entrepreneurs have traits like increased risk appetite, hyper focus, resistance to criticism... but these can also be linked to narcissistic or psychopathic tendencies.”

He points out that traits such as creativity and leadership are double-edged swords, contributing to both business achievements and personal vulnerabilities.

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The Price of Success: Mental Health in High-Stress Roles

The discussion highlights alarming statistics regarding mental health among CEOs and business leaders.

Jan Gerber [15:10]: “There's a 10 to 20 times suicide rate amongst CEOs.”

Jan emphasizes that the immense pressure to succeed can lead to severe mental health repercussions, underscoring the need for proactive support systems.

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Building Paracelsus Recovery: Trust and Confidentiality

Jan shares the origins of Paracelsus Recovery, which emerged from addressing the needs of high-profile individuals requiring discreet mental health care.

Jan Gerber [19:54]: “We realized there is a need, there's a niche... confidentiality was the main reason for this idea.”

He explains that building trust through reputation and confidential services is paramount in attracting and retaining clients from the elite sphere.

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Physical Health and Mental Resilience

Jan underscores the importance of physical well-being as a cornerstone of mental health.

Jan Gerber [22:24]: “Stay fit... prioritize exercise, healthy eating, and sufficient sleep are essential for emotional resilience.”

James Reed adds personal strategies for maintaining fitness and sleep schedules, highlighting their critical role in sustaining mental health.

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Cultivating an 'Information Diet'

Addressing the overload of negative news, Jan introduces the concept of an "information diet" to protect mental well-being.

Jan Gerber [32:52]: “Be conscious about what you diet... limit exposure to information that doesn't serve you.”

He advocates for filtering news intake to prevent unnecessary anxiety and maintain focus on constructive endeavors.

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Psychedelics in Mental Health Treatment

The conversation turns to the emerging role of psychedelics in therapy. Jan shares his optimistic view on their potential.

Jan Gerber [47:09]: “There's 100% certainty that psychedelics will become an important pillar in mental health treatment... when done properly in a therapeutic setting.”

He discusses the challenges in legalizing and standardizing psychedelic treatments but remains hopeful about their integration into mainstream psychiatry.

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Strategies for Mental Fitness and Open Dialogue

Jan and James explore practical strategies for maintaining mental fitness, especially for those in high-stress roles.

Jan Gerber [52:55]: “Foster an open dialogue... incorporate mental health discussions into management and board meetings.”

He suggests making mental health assessments a routine part of corporate risk management and encourages leaders to model vulnerability and openness.

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Concluding Thoughts and Vision

As the episode wraps up, Jan reflects on his personal motivations and future aspirations.

Jan Gerber [63:41]: “I can make a difference in fostering the mental health dialogue... breaking through the stigma is my path.”

James Reed reinforces the importance of mental fitness, tying together the episode's insights with a forward-looking perspective on personal and organizational well-being.

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Key Takeaways

• Complexity of Mental Health: Entrepreneurs face multifaceted mental health challenges that require comprehensive support.
• Early Recognition: Recognizing early signs like sleep disturbances and irritability can prevent deeper issues.
• Addiction as Coping: Substance abuse often serves as a maladaptive method to manage emotional pain.
• Dual Nature of Traits: Entrepreneurial traits can both drive success and contribute to mental vulnerabilities.
• Importance of Trust: Establishing trust and maintaining confidentiality are crucial for mental health services catering to high-profile clients.
• Holistic Well-being: Physical health, including exercise and sleep, is integral to mental resilience.
• Information Management: Controlling information intake helps mitigate unnecessary stress and anxiety.
• Innovative Treatments: Psychedelics hold promise for revolutionizing mental health treatment, pending legal and procedural advancements.
• Open Dialogue: Encouraging open conversations about mental health within organizations fosters a supportive environment.
• Continuous Improvement: Embracing mental fitness as an ongoing process enhances personal and professional well-being.

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Notable Quotes

• Jan Gerber [07:14]: “Addiction is often self-medication...these are all ways to evade emotional pain.”
• James Reed [04:17]: “Something's a problem when it becomes a problem by being awake at three in the morning.”
• Jan Gerber [12:28]: “Entrepreneurs have traits like increased risk appetite, hyper focus...but these can also be linked to narcissistic or psychopathic tendencies.”
• Jan Gerber [32:52]: “Be conscious about what you diet...limit exposure to information that doesn't serve you.”
• Jan Gerber [47:09]: “There's 100% certainty that psychedelics will become an important pillar in mental health treatment...”

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This episode serves as a crucial resource for entrepreneurs, business leaders, and anyone interested in understanding the intersection of high-stress careers and mental health. Jan Gerber's insights provide a roadmap for recognizing, addressing, and preventing mental health issues, ensuring that leaders can sustain both their personal well-being and professional success.

Transcript

[James Reed]

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. Entrepreneurs all share one common trait. But what if that superpower for driving success leads to the downfall of a business leader and maybe their entire organization? And how do you spot the signs early to prevent it from happening? Joining me today on All About Business is Jan Gerber. He's the CEO of Paracelsus Recovery, the world's most private and discreet addiction and mental health clinic. In this conversation, we'll reveal what that shared trait is, how the mental health of business leaders in the public eye can impact an organization, and how Jan has cemented his clinic as number one for the super rich and famous. So I'm really pleased to welcome today to our All About Business studio, which has been revamped. You might notice if you're watching Jan Gerber, who's come all the way from Switzerland, Zurich in Switzerland. So thank you, Jan, for coming. Jan is the founder of more than 20 companies, so serial entrepreneur, but his particular focus is the mental health of business people and entrepreneurs. And he has his business Paracelsus, that focuses specifically on that and supports people who need help. So Yann, my first question is around the entrepreneurial mind. I love that idea, the entrepreneurial mind. And you work with entrepreneurs and executives, supporting them with their mental health. What's the most, the most common issue that people seek your help for?

[Jan Gerber]

Right. It's actually not a straightforward answer. Well, first of all, thanks for having me. It's a real pleasure being. Nice to meet you. It's, it's normally complex and messy, so obviously we know kind of from the public narrative burnout is an issue. You know, lots of stress can lead to that. Often there is depression, anxiety that plays a role, but then more often not affected individuals, they start self medicating and with prescription medication often sleep goes first, often than with alcohol or even illicit drugs just to function. So there is often a layer of substance use issues on top of that. So there's no one kind of main thing why entrepreneurs or business leaders seek our help.

[James Reed]

But you cover all those?

[Jan Gerber]

Absolutely. All the way to personality disorders.

[James Reed]

So why don't we take them one at a time? I mean, you've given sort of three big areas of concern There, I mean, the first burnout. I mean, how does, how does someone recognize that in themselves or think that this might be a problem? And how does it sort of come to light if you, how does it become an issue? Where does it start and how does it grow?

[Jan Gerber]

I mean, early symptoms often is sleep goes first. So. And it's normal as an entrepreneur, as a business leader, that you do have sleepless nights during more stressful phases, transaction, economic downturn, whatever. But if there is a pattern, a kind of a downhill pattern, often that's one of the early symptoms. Other things can be just increased irritability, again, reliance on substance, brain fog, anxiety that creeps in that were not there before or not that prevalent before. Anxiety is normal for entrepreneurs as well. Right. So you need to. In relation, if that gets wor. Worse, then you probably on a kind of a sliding scale towards.

[James Reed]

So sleep. I mean, I know personally, I'm often awake at 3:00 in the morning, 3, 3 to 4. And I talk to other entrepreneurs. Oh yeah, I'm often awake, give me a call. People say, you know, they'd light it. But that is a sort of typical time when you might wake up and think about something and it might be something that's causing you anxiety or it might just be an idea.

[Jan Gerber]

Absolutely.

[James Reed]

Find myself sort of doing that in the middle of the night quite frequently.

[Jan Gerber]

But I always say something's a problem when it becomes a problem by being awake at three in the morning. If that's your most productive phase, if you don't need a lot of sleep, that's all fine. But if you normally sleep from, let's say, I don't know, 10 or 11pm until 3 in the morning and then, you know, have a few hours of productive time, then sleep another hour or two and then suddenly it's down to the four hours or even the falling asleep gets harder because your mind is racing and you're worried about stuff. So that's. It's the quality, not just necessarily the duration and a constant pattern. Ideally, yes.

[James Reed]

So, so that's burnout. So then we have anxiety and depression, which you just mentioned, which is, you know, there's been sort of a lot of comment recently in the UK around people being diagnosed, the medicalization of sort of life's difficulties, I suppose, and that's become more common. But talk me through that. What are the first signs? I guess sleeplessness is one. But when, when does someone move from just being a bit down to being anxious and depressed? And how do you recognize that again?

[Jan Gerber]

I mean, Diagnosis, help and the psychiatric books and all of that in a way just to make sense of things. But in the end you just have to watch the symptoms and what the consequences are. If it impacts your life, if impacts your private life, if it impacts your performance, if you really start feeling unwell, you can tell it happened to myself as well. So. And it's about paying attention really to, to, to yourself and your well being.

[James Reed]

So you've had personal experience of this?

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah, yeah, I've been in the clinic for a few weeks actually and, and I thought it's burnout as a therapist at the time I said, you know, you burnt out, you should go to a clinic. In the end, the diagnosis was actually acute depression. And that's also because you can name it whatever you like. It's often. It's kind of a mesh of, you know, different symptoms and it doesn't really matter that much, at least initially. What is neck, you know, what is actually the diagnosis? Just when it's.

[James Reed]

If someone has acute depression, it's important they get medical support, isn't it?

[Jan Gerber]

Therapeutic support, at least professional support. Let's call it that.

[James Reed]

Yeah.

[Jan Gerber]

I mean it's almost impossible really to. Once you reach a certain turning point, it's almost impossible to kind of. For that to just go away on its own or for yourself or just, you know, with help with friends and family to get out of it.

[James Reed]

Yeah. One of. One of my guests recently was here and she said that she was beginning to get depressed and she'd had this before, recognized it as such and I wasn't feeling particularly qualified to support her. But I hope that she now feeling better. I think she, she is from what I've heard. So yeah, so I think it professional support and then, and then the self medication thing, you mentioned that, I mean, I mean that's closely related to addiction. I'm guessing.

[Jan Gerber]

Addiction actually is by definition self medication.

[James Reed]

Talk me through that.

[Jan Gerber]

Because addiction. So here's the thing. Addiction is often misconceived or there's a misconception around it that it's, you know, you take a drug or if you take a drug too much or if you drink too much alcohol, you will get addicted. That's almost never the case. It's when there is an underlying problem, either, you know, a traumatization or too much stress or personality disorder and that creates emotional pain. And that pain is. And that reaches a level where it's not bearable anymore. It's natural for us human beings to try to evade that somehow. And self medication now be that with alcohol, be it prescription medication that is, you know, legitimately prescribed by the GP or psychiatrist or illicit drugs, and these are all ways to kind of. And their behaviors as well. You know, some people I know.

[James Reed]

So you're saying that the alcoholism is a consequence of the addiction?

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Described as a symptom.

[Jan Gerber]

It's a symptom, yeah.

[James Reed]

I stopped drinking a few years ago and I'm probably more committed to my work now. I'm really sort of focusing on that and I love working on. Yeah, what's that about? But I feel is that part of the entrepreneurial mind, this sort of focus, this sort of passion, or the sort of obsessive nature of an entrepreneurial mind.

[Jan Gerber]

I'm sure to a degree. Now again, as I said before, we really have to focus on something is a problem when it becomes a problem. And honestly that's true with also. Even the use of substances. It's true with how much we work or whatever we do. We can draw tremendous pleasure and energy from working very, very, very hard. But if that starts impacting our relationships, if that starts our physical well being and at some point there was some emotional well being as a consequence, just to be aware of that in itself. There's nothing wrong with, you know, working nights and getting up at three in the morning with big ideas.

[James Reed]

No, no, it's sort of, well, it gives you plenty. I mean, there's not a problem until it's a problem. But I mean, is there a sort of checklist of what makes something a problem? You mentioned relationships, you mentioned, I mean, what are the top, say, three things we should be looking out for that might say, hey, I've got a problem here.

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah, I mean, often it's actually people around us recognizing it earlier because once you're in the middle of it, you're in this drive and you're just trying to stay afloat and it's hard to kind of, you know, take a step back, like, okay, no, actually this is going downhill. This is not sustainable. I'm actually already having a.

[James Reed]

So your family for instance, so what? What something might happen so you have enough.

[Jan Gerber]

Well, just ideally fostering an open dialogue with your family. So as an entrepreneur, you tend to already have specific family dynamic that others don't have in terms of how much you're home, how much you work once you get home, being reachable around the clock, being stressed, et cetera. So ideally you can foster an open dialogue around how you're perceived and especially if things change. And things change the worse because often Entrepreneurs, especially when things get successful and you, you build more staff, if you have reliable middle manager, all that, you do everything yourself, your relationships kind of fall away and for some time your spouse or your family, they can halt that, but at some point it might.

[James Reed]

Just break away and then you notice it's gone.

[Jan Gerber]

Exam. Okay, it's a problem.

[James Reed]

Yeah. But it's important to spot the problem before it becomes a bigger problem.

[Jan Gerber]

Early warning signs. I mean, prevention is in any health topic, physically as well as emotion, prevention is the best thing. And then early detection, as it is with cancer, heart disease, the same with, with mental health, early detection can prevent a lot of expensive and very painful fallout down the line. And then if that's kind of missed, you know, so there is professional care out there that people should not be ashamed to access.

[James Reed]

We're delighted that you're listening to this episode. Hit the follow button so that we can continue to bring you the best business insight and actionable advice to help your business and or career. So I don't know whether this is just a cliche. I mean, I'm interested in what you think, but it's been said that sort of entrepreneurs have a certain, often a certain personality type or traits and maybe they're helpful in some ways and a hindrance in others. Is that your view? Is that. I mean, and if so, what are they? What are those traits you've recognized in your.

[Jan Gerber]

It's actually 100% my view. 100% actually, you know, so what.

[James Reed]

Come on, let's talk through that because I'm really interested in this. What are the traits?

[Jan Gerber]

Actually, way back I started my PhD in business with a focus on emotional or psychological traits of. It was called deadbeat entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs that just keep on going even though they're not getting off the ground. And there's, you know, purely economically would be better off actually going back. That was my professor. It was a working title. I never finished a PhD. Right. But. And that was way before I got into healthcare or mental health space. But already back then it was recognized by some of the, you know, leading.

[James Reed]

Businesses just wouldn't give up.

[Jan Gerber]

So there is, obviously, I think that's clear to all of us. Entrepreneurs have certain traits. We call them risk, increased risk appetite or, you know, more risk taking than the average population. Hyper focus, kind of this stamina.

[James Reed]

So risk taking, hyper focus. When you won't sort of let something go.

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[James Reed]

I can see that.

[Jan Gerber]

And also, you know, kind of certain resistance to criticism might be something that's associated with successful entrepreneurs. Anyways, because you need to kind of see your way through when everybody else is like, you know, that's the wrong way to go. That also is related to thinking out of the box, certain creativity and also daring to, to go and take another path than everybody, everybody else proposes or does. So that's, that's all traits that are associated with entrepreneurship.

[James Reed]

Some of those traits might be also associated with being a criminal. Have you ever been asked?

[Jan Gerber]

Oh no, 100%.

[James Reed]

And that's pretty fine lines. Often.

[Jan Gerber]

Often it is.

[James Reed]

I mean there's plenty of entrepreneur, gangster. I mean, what's that?

[Jan Gerber]

So lots of gangsters are very good entrepreneurs. I mean there was a book that was proposed to me the other day, how to run a drug cartel or something like that, which is purely based on economic. I haven't read it, so I won't endorse it.

[James Reed]

This is going to get banned by YouTube.

[Jan Gerber]

Go on, edit it out. But in the end, I mean, yeah, running against Empire is entrepreneurship as well, right? No, but it's true. So there is also, like in the entrepreneurial population you will find a higher incidence of narcissistic traits, of psychopathic traits, also in criminals, as you say, but also higher incidence of adhd, hyperactive disorder, so creativity, risk taking, hyper focus. These are these traits bipolar as well, you know, kind of in a manic phase, immensely productive and motivate and you can take others along. Charisma, leadership, again often associated with narcissism. So but the flip side of all of those traits, when they, when they, when they have a certain intensity, the diagnosable mental health conditions and they lead to all sorts of problems. So in the population of addicts, you have I think six to eight times the incidence of ADHD affected people in alcoholics, six times in cocaine addicted people, and I think 10 to 20 times the suicide rate amongst CEOs. So these are. So that's.

[James Reed]

CEOs have a very high suicide rate. Do they?

[Jan Gerber]

If you. Yeah, so if you. So we have a research team that kind of, you know, whatever is publicly. Because it's not research enough, whatever is publicly available. We looked into, you know, from CEOs to Oscar winners to, you know, kind of all the, all the things that, you know, success, wealth, fame. What's the mental health flip side of that? And the statistics are very, very clear. It's always multiples.

[James Reed]

So these things that people set out because they're looking for fame and fortune. Yeah. Come with a high price.

[Jan Gerber]

Another factor that's often not enough talked about and it's not technically, often not a mental health diagnosis in that sense. But you see that quite often in the entrepreneur, business leader, population. People have been neglected emotionally as kids, you know, not shown enough love or appreciation by their parents or significant people in their lives. They kind of go out to. Into the world to prove their worth to the world, but actually in the end to themselves, that they're worthy of something. And that can compared to a person who's equally well educated or equally intelligent, equally well equipped with that additional stamina, that kind of almost ferocious drive to show that you were something that can lead to tremendous success, but also brings.

[James Reed]

With it sort of vulnerabilities. I mean, you've really got something to prove, haven't you, whether it's to yourself or your parents. And that's deeply psychological and.

[Jan Gerber]

Exactly. The issue is that, you know, it's kind of chasing that, that carrot. No success. Even if you make billions and you come from a modest background, that will not fill that void.

[James Reed]

No. I mean, there's always someone who's more successful anyway.

[Jan Gerber]

Well, that's another thing.

[James Reed]

That'S always a problem. I mean, well, they call it the bereavement of achievement. I mean, it's still, still. The void is still there because you can't go back.

[Jan Gerber]

It's no, no substitute for kind of just nurturing your, your emotional. And you can, you can. I mean, if you didn't receive that poem from your parents, you can build that through in your healthy relationships. Or there's a phrase called reparenting. Right. A therapeutic modality, kind of, you know, be kind to yourself, talk to your inner child.

[James Reed]

Interesting.

[Jan Gerber]

And kind of remedy that, that void.

[James Reed]

But listening to you makes me worried that entrepreneurs might repeat that with their own children by becoming so sort of, you know, focused on building a business again. That's, that's the sort of pattern that repeats. I mean, so I always think we're an entrepreneurial family. That might be why. I mean, I'm appalled by that thought.

[Jan Gerber]

But it's perhaps, I mean many mental health issues and particular addiction as a symptom. But is, is kind of known to be a generational issue. So it's in a way handed down. And addiction, there's a bit of genetic component, but most of it is, it is behavioral. So it's about recognizing that and, and with intent, breaking that pattern. I think that's a responsibility that we all have. If you're from entrepreneurial, wealthy, talk me through this.

[James Reed]

Reparenting. You just said that. How do you do that? How do you reparent yourself.

[Jan Gerber]

So I'm, I'm not a qualified therapist. I can kind of talk you through all the details. But, but in the end the notion is that that's one philosophy, sorry, one treatment philosophy or one treatment approach amongst many psychotherapeutic approaches. But there's a notion that we all carry an inner child. You know, the one that's, that's been anxious, that still makes us anxious. The one that was, you know, neglected in our actual childhood. That's still kind of is hunger for. Hungry for attention or love. Um, and, and then we go out and, and, and, and act out in all sorts of ways and we don't realize why. Um, so the idea is that this, this inner child, if we kind of put that. Focus our attention on, on that and, and, and its emotional needs and, and remedy that kind of reparenting. So be kind to ourselves. There can be also, like in, in hypnotherapy there can be these exercises right. Where you, you hold your young self and just kind and compassionate and show love and appreciation.

[James Reed]

That's interesting. What gave you the idea to start a business like that?

[Jan Gerber]

So as many good business ideas, I think it just happened by accident. So I was already entrepreneurially active at the time. I'd already founded some companies, some more or less successful. After I stepped out of a career as a management consultant, I always knew I would be an entrepreneur one day. And what actually happened was so both my parents were in mental health care and it was a friend of a friend of probably a friend of the family was a top executive of a listed company who had developed an alcohol use disorder and couldn't go to any. So you need inpatient type care. It was at that escalation level. Couldn't go to any rehab or a clinic because the board and himself and everybody involved there were afraid the stock market price would just tank if that came out.

[James Reed]

So he's a high profile person.

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah. So basically moved into the guest room at my parents place. We organized a butler chef and an external psychiatrist and my mom would do all the clinical coordination and then we would already.

[James Reed]

Amazing.

[Jan Gerber]

So you had some other therapists.

[James Reed]

You helped solve this particular individual's problem as a family and that was the beginning of your business? Yeah.

[Jan Gerber]

Basically we realized there is a need, there's a niche. Right. So purely from an entrepreneurial perspective, like there was an opportunity and because a confidentiality I guess was the main reason why there was space for this idea to emerge. And then based on that, obviously, you know, if you treat Only one client with whole team around it. You need to charge quite a price for that because the costs are some other clients. Well at first it made sense to do to, to kind of look out of the box as entrepreneurs do. What other treatment modalities that normally are not offered in the mental health space could add value but are normally not part of it for, for cost reasons. So we were as far as I'm aware, the first or at least one of the first kind of mental health providers in the world that looked also into, into physical health, into functional health and gut health hormone levels and these type gland functioning because the digestive system that all plays a role as well in you know, in emotional resilience and well being.

[James Reed]

We haven't discussed that of the physical health and what people can do to sort of sustain, you know, good mental health through physical activities or diet. Have you got some advice?

[Jan Gerber]

Well, the easiest one, stay fit. Right. You'll hear that often.

[James Reed]

What about you stay fit? What if you're not fit to swim?

[Jan Gerber]

You have to make space to get fit then.

[James Reed]

Right.

[Jan Gerber]

And that's true for anybody, not just for, for you know, for entrepreneurs or business leaders.

[James Reed]

When you say fit, what do you mean?

[Jan Gerber]

Just you know, kind of the usual advice of x 2 and a half hours of cardio exercise a week, some resistance training ideally and if you can' do that at least you know something is better than nothing. And that's advice is true for everybody. The problem with business leaders, entrepreneurs is often that's the first thing that goes when times get stressful. Like I have so much to do. I'm scheduled to go to the gym now but actually I need to finish this meeting or make that call. So what do you cancel? Right. It's family, it's yeah workouts and all that. Then eat healthy and, and with healthy just again caffeine, lots of sugar, you know, these kind of things that's just, that's normal. We all had this probably.

[James Reed]

It's.

[Jan Gerber]

I don't make assumptions about you but you know, doing stressful, that's what you start craving when, when your brain and your brain kind of needs that. So just watch that. So again, no pragmatism, it's, it's a problem when it becomes a problem.

[James Reed]

And what I found works for me is I sort of make my exercise time before 8 in the morning because no one really wants any of my time before in the morning. So I go to the gym, I do yoga or I do Pilates, but so four days a week I'm doing Something before eight. I really like that because I think that's my time between half six and eight.

[Jan Gerber]

You know, that's funny because I, I used to think of myself as a kind of. My exercise time was more like 4 or 5pm but that would mean I would have to step out of the office exercise, you know, go back to the office. And at some point, again, that just fell away. Um, so. And I just could not train in the morning. I was like, I just didn't have the energy. I couldn't do it after breakfast. I would, you know, feel nauseous. I wouldn't do it before breakfast because I work with the hypoglycemic. Uh, but then I just trained to. I had no other choice. So I do the same thing first thing I get up in the morning, you know, try to get at least half an hour, if not an hour of cardio in. And often that's enough. If you do that several times a week and, and you still have time for a coffee and breakfast after that before the phone.

[James Reed]

Well, it sort of worked for me. It's kept me going all these years and I, and I actually really enjoy. I look forward to that time of day. I'll just be in bed or probably going to the office otherwise. So it seems to make sense to.

[Jan Gerber]

But you have to consciously make space for that because there's plenty of excuses why in a busy schedule.

[James Reed]

And sometimes you have to travel and it doesn't work. But it's sort of important to try and come back to it. I think I found in my own career that if I get overtired or I'm not exercising, that's when I start feeling a bit flat.

[Jan Gerber]

And it's often that vicious circle. You're already tired. Like, I can't exercise today, but actually exercise would exactly be beneficial to kind of stop that.

[James Reed]

So making time for sleep and time for exercise is really, I think, very important. And you're saying that's your experience?

[Jan Gerber]

100%. And then there's also, I mean you can put that in the mental or the physical health space. Somewhere in between is there's a reason why you hear more and more on podcasts and elsewhere that very high profile, successful people, they all, many of them talk about their own meditation practice and some of them, you know, put that into kind of entrepreneurial, creative context. So I take this half an hour, hour a day, strictly because the big ideas, they come. Do you do that? I'm struggling to establish one, but I am working on it.

[James Reed]

So they do half an Hour meditation a day.

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah. So that's my aim. I haven't. Again, that's one of the things that for me kind of goes away first when things get too busy. So I don't want to, you know, preach water and drink wine, as people say. But there is plenty of drink wine. It's a German saying. Maybe, I don't know. But, but there's very good reason that a lot of people who have been able to establish that, they just rave about it. So it's, it's, it's can be conducive to, to, to new ideas and creativity, but also on the mental health prevention side. So, you know, kind of two in one.

[James Reed]

Yeah, well, I like doing yoga and there's an element of.

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Meditation around that if you're, if you're a business leader. More and more, I think personal brand is becoming important because of many media channels, social media, etc. And I hear that more and more. But if your personal brand is very public, it becomes more difficult, doesn't it, if you then become unwell in some of the ways that we've described, to seek support. I mean, it must be important that that is very private. Is that a key part of your focus?

[Jan Gerber]

So, yeah, so, so as I mentioned, I think our first client and the kind of the idea start from more around confidentiality than actual clinical expertise.

[James Reed]

So the confidentiality really came top. That was the first part of the.

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah, because you can go any.

[James Reed]

Yeah. You can go anybody else. We absolutely protect it.

[Jan Gerber]

Exactly. And that's still the case. I mean, and we take, you know, tons of measures to protect the confidentiality of our clients. And you know, I would agree that, you know, as, as investors in a public or private company, doesn't matter a startup, as business partners or even as clients, you will look at, you know, how the leadership behaves. If they feel, you know, it seems like they're in a good place or not good place. And if information becomes public that they're struggling emotionally, yes, there are risks to that, like the stock market price, for instance. But I also think, I like to think, but I do think, and I think we see evidence of that emerging with mental health conversation changing over the last few years, particularly since COVID but also already a bit before and also the dialogue and also what we're doing here, you know, the dialogue about, you know, the pressures on entrepreneurs and business leaders. I hope that we see in the very near future kind of a new leadership role evolving. People are more open and vulnerable and authentic because in a way that's, you know, that's what we look for in leaders. Right. We want somebody, yes, strong and who sees us through crisis, but we also want somebody relatable and empathetic. And if you, if you own up to your own struggles and say, you know, I need to, I know I need to take a step back or this has been really hard for me that I think overall makes, makes a leader actually better leader.

[James Reed]

That's become sort of a question of some interest though, hasn't it? To what extent would you follow someone who was very open about all sorts of weaknesses over someone who appeared to be pretty robust and say, hey, come with me, you know, we're going to make a success of this. I mean there is a sort of.

[Jan Gerber]

Me personally, I'd rather invest, let's say in a startup or in a company where a leader says, look, I know one weekend a month or two weekends a month, I just need with my family, I need that for my own well being or I have been seeing a therapist or I am seeing a therapist or I need to take, you know, a week or two off, I go to a retreat once a year. I'd rather have somebody like that than somebody's like I'm going strong in the office 24 7, we're going to double our revenues and then suddenly they start displaying some erratic behavior in public or they just disappear overnight.

[James Reed]

Becomes unbelievable, doesn't it? You know, I get up at 4 every morning. Yeah. So I think there's a sort of honesty element to this too. I mean we're all human in the.

[Jan Gerber]

End and it's only, that's the thing. And I think authenticity beats, you know, it's kind of beats the hiding of. It's not weakness anymore really. Obviously to a degree you have to stand up there, you have to kind of show confidence in what you're doing and be there as a strong leader. But I think we're getting into a time where that's not in a contradiction anymore with also showing your vulnerable side and just being open about certain struggles.

[James Reed]

Yeah, I mean, I do think it's something that we're still weighing up though as a society. How open is it wise to be?

[Jan Gerber]

No. 100%. So I'm seeing a trend that I'm hopeful about. But then let's be honest, in the end you have to be pragmatic about this, particularly if a lot depends on the reputation of the leadership. If something emerges or even acutely happens in a mental health for them, it has to be very carefully managed. It has to be good PR team. That. And also for the person themselves, there has to be privacy. You can't just kind of.

[James Reed]

Are there any. Are there any sort of public examples. I'm not asking to sort of breach any concept that you've observed where you've seen a business leader handle this. Well.

[Jan Gerber]

That'S a very good question, actually. Now, I'm. The thing is this. So no transparency. I'm not following the news for more than two years now for mental health reasons. So that was my own kind of.

[James Reed]

So you decided not to follow the news?

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know what happened in the last two years in terms of, you know, big stories.

[James Reed]

So you don't. You're not obsessively looking at Twitter and seeing what's trending?

[Jan Gerber]

No, no.

[James Reed]

And you made that decision as a business person and a entrepreneur for your own benefit.

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Talk me through that. I mean, I want to understand that because I. I've heard other people say this, and, you know, you're just being dumped on with negativity if you look at news.

[Jan Gerber]

That's exactly it. And, you know, so how's that going?

[James Reed]

I mean, is that.

[Jan Gerber]

Oh, it's going well. I mean, I don't notice it anymore. I. Only when it comes up in conversations, like, have you heard about what happened in Los Angeles? And I was asked.

[James Reed]

So you don't even look at the telly or anything?

[Jan Gerber]

No, no.

[James Reed]

But you've got a phone.

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

But you don't have any of these?

[Jan Gerber]

No. Social. Well, the social media is only posting about mental health stuff, and I do have a team that supports me there. So I'm not exposed to a news feed all the time and news sites and news apps and all that. And when I walk into an, you know, an airport lounge and there's CNN on or something, then I try to look.

[James Reed]

You're very strict about it.

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

So you see this as poison, basically.

[Jan Gerber]

It's a. Well, for my. For myself. Yes. Now, actually. And I came across a few times from different people also in podcasts and. And elsewhere. You know, people talk about diet. We need to watch what you put into our body physically, but we need to equally have kind of an information diet. Because I say poison. You know, a lot of that's information doesn't serve us information.

[James Reed]

That's a brilliant idea. I really like it. Be conscious about what you diet. Yeah.

[Jan Gerber]

When you're in a certain industry, obviously, you have to know a lot of.

[James Reed]

Parameters on my information diet, or most of us.

[Jan Gerber]

Right. Yeah.

[James Reed]

And it does. It sort of winds you up. You sort of think, well, I look at some of these things and yeah, they make me angry.

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah. Angry or sad or angry.

[James Reed]

Why am I angry? Say I have no reason to be. I'm just on my way to do something. Why am I feeling like this?

[Jan Gerber]

Exactly One you put, you nail it. And a lot of people don't realize that because it's an automatic process. We have our phones, we consume the news, and then suddenly we start feeling anxious or nervous or angry. And then we take that, I don't know, in a business negotiation or into a team meeting, and we kind of, you know, half of the energy still with us. I just felt myself. It doesn't serve me. It doesn't serve my purpose. And also my. I stopped when I was acutely unwell because I realized, you know, part of.

[James Reed]

Your sort of issue.

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah, I just realized when I, you know, read about an innocent family dying on the emotor way.

[James Reed]

Why do you need to know that?

[Jan Gerber]

Why do you need to know that? But it makes me sad because I start thinking about, you know, the parents and whoever is affected and what if that happened to my family? And all that pointless time and energy I could have used for something constructive or beautiful. So I stopped. And the first few weeks and months, I often find myself kind of putting in, you know, the URL into. I wouldn't have a news app. I always went through a browser and almost already loading the news site just out of habits. And then I was like, immediately like, okay, swipe away. But one of the problems, and now it's natural.

[James Reed]

Okay, but one of the problems for us as business people is so much is sort of pervade through social media. I mean, we have brands that people want to learn about, we want to inform people about things. And it's quite hard, isn't it? Just sort of turning back on that. And, you know, I suppose we're putting this podcast out that will be on people's phones and I hope they enjoy listening to what you have to say. But if. If they took a very strict view of what you've just said, they wouldn't ever hear that, would they?

[Jan Gerber]

No, actually, we have to differentiate that. So I listen to lots of podcasts, okay. From, you know, podcasts such, such as yours for, you know, entrepreneurs and, and leaders. Lots of mental health stuff, obviously, lots of neuroscience and then some geeky stuff. I'm also interested in like theoretical physics, so.

[James Reed]

But you don't look at the social feeds.

[Jan Gerber]

So that's the thing I Mean, obviously at some point my algorithm doesn't serve me stuff anymore anyways, that doesn't interest me. Right. But there's a difference, I think also, like, so I got off news sites, that's, that's the one thing. And then on socials, I deleted my personal social accounts. So I don't see actually what my friends are doing anymore. And, and all that because also it was just taking up too much time. But and these days with algorithm algorithms and now with kind of AI emerging, you can say very particularly so any kind of emerging research in psychiatry, I know about it. Right, right. And if it makes big headlines or not, it just finds.

[James Reed]

So you're just asking AI the question.

[Jan Gerber]

And now you can, you can tell, you know, most of the news sites even already put filters and all that. And now with AI, it's even easier just say, look, I'm interested in this, this and that, and don't serve me anything else or surf me anything.

[James Reed]

Which sites are you saying this to? Which sites do you say this to? Are you going through an AI app to do that or are you just.

[Jan Gerber]

So me personally and I just, you know, through my Google account, Google News, you can put, I only want to see this. And then I get alerts when there is something and then when I see the headline, this is something, you know, so kind of scandalous. So it doesn't serve me.

[James Reed]

I just have Many of the people you've worked with, the entrepreneurs you serve, have they taken this idea from you or are you pretty unique in this respect?

[Jan Gerber]

I like to think more and more it does resonate with people, right?

[James Reed]

Yeah.

[Jan Gerber]

Many say I can't do that because I need to know what's going on in the world.

[James Reed]

That's my concern.

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah. And then I just say, look, I mean, again, you have to be pragmatic about it to some degree that's probably true. What I realized is so all my peer group, you know, from academia in the old days now, friends in various successful, you know, many of them successful positions, when you meet them after work, you talk about the economy, about inflation or politics or that that's, you know, this kind of intellectual dialogue. Right. And then I'm, they just got used to that. I'm not participating in that because I can't. And so automatically when I meet people, just, you know, one to one, that doesn't even come up anymore when it's in a group.

[James Reed]

So what'd you talk about?

[Jan Gerber]

I know, I just said about the mysteries of life and the universe or mental well being and that's what I talk about. Or the last holiday or how the kids are doing, you know, things that, that matter to me personally. And, and that.

[James Reed]

So you're not following a football team they talk about. Because you couldn't even look at the results.

[Jan Gerber]

Well, you can look up the football team results with that. Well, you can get angry about them. Right.

[James Reed]

That's always annoying.

[Jan Gerber]

But if that's playful, you know, why not? I mean, and you can be angry and sad, but it's not a tragedy in a sense that, you know, some of the things that happen out there that knowing about it just makes me feel bad and doesn't help anyway.

[James Reed]

So you, your practice, your business is focusing on CEOs, entrepreneurs, highly wealthy people often, I imagine.

[Jan Gerber]

Right.

[James Reed]

How did you, how did you get to build a brand that fit that space? You mentioned that you have one client who came to your family home and you start. But how did you cater? How did you become. How do you create an awareness in that audience that you were there to help if they needed it? And what makes it particularly important for those type of people? You mentioned confidentiality. Are there other things that they look for?

[Jan Gerber]

I think the one keyword it all comes down to is trust. Right. I mean, you know, trust in brands is valid in any important in any industry, but in mental health generally, and then specifically with this sociodemographic group, trust is the main thing. It's hard enough for, for anybody, no matter what your.

[James Reed]

Beginning. Yeah, well, sorry, they don't know you at the beginning. So it's hard to trust someone you.

[Jan Gerber]

Don'T know exactly 100%. And it's hard enough for anybody who seeks therapy. Right. To kind of entrust your vulnerable self to a stranger. So it's about building reputation. So basically the first few years were just, you know, lots of meeting referrers, consultant psychiatrists, GPs, family office principals around the world just being like, here we are and you can trust us and you have to take my word for it.

[James Reed]

So you're also building a reputation in the network that works with.

[Jan Gerber]

That's the only way it works.

[James Reed]

So you can't do it directly, obviously.

[Jan Gerber]

And then, and then over time, you know, then the reputation builds. And now we're quite well known actually in the family office space and, and also a lot of entrepreneurs and, you know, top executives kind of are in that space as well. That we are, you know, a trustworthy.

[James Reed]

Yes.

[Jan Gerber]

Bunch of people to, to go to when, when, when you struggle and you.

[James Reed]

Get referrals, I guess, from people who have been do people come back?

[Jan Gerber]

People do come back. I mean, the thing about the truth about mental health is it's, you know, no matter how good or how expensive the treatment, that's no proxy for. For how the. How the path goes afterwards. It's often quite entrenched, quite. Quite chronic. And there you have to be pragmatic about that. You know, an improved quality of life is, you know, can be a good outcome. Try to stay on that trajectory. But there are bumps in the road, you know, with addiction or not addiction. Mental health is messy.

[James Reed]

Yeah, sure, mental health is messy. So this issue of trust I support entirely. But you've got to build a team to deliver your service. How do you make sure you recruit trustworthy people?

[Jan Gerber]

I always proudly and very gratefully say that number one criteria to work at Paracelsus Recovery at our clinic is to have the heart in the right place. And then you need to have your diplomas and your. Yeah, okay, so you have to have.

[James Reed]

Your heart in the right place. But how do you tell that when someone's sitting across the table from you at an interview?

[Jan Gerber]

In the end, I mean, initially it came down to gut feel. Obviously, you meet the people a few times and you listen to them and you just kind of. I'm quite a sensitive person, so I try to kind of gave also and ask certain questions as well. You know, find out what the motivations really are.

[James Reed]

So what sort of questions? This is important for all businesses. You know, none of us want to hire someone who's not trustworthy.

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah, but you.

[James Reed]

But you've made a business out of this.

[Jan Gerber]

Well, you're in recruiting, so I don't want to give you any tips about how to select your people.

[James Reed]

I want to share them. But you're. It's so important to you. I can see that the people you hire trustworthy because you can't afford anyone to be sort of.

[Jan Gerber]

I mean, one question.

[James Reed]

Blabbing about who's just signed up or, you know.

[Jan Gerber]

Well, exactly, exactly.

[James Reed]

So how do you make sure. How do you. How do you. Have you had problems with that?

[Jan Gerber]

Well, problems. Not. I mean, people come and go and, And. And then when you realize it doesn't vibe.

[James Reed]

So your gut feel's got a pretty good track record.

[Jan Gerber]

I would. I would say so. But then. So one of the. If you ask, you know what we ask one of the specific things, for instance. So for me, it's always a red flag when a therapist, no matter what his tenure or her reputation tells me, it doesn't make a difference for them who the patient is. He sits in front of them. You know, they would treat George Clooney the same. They would just, you know, John Doe walking in from the road. That's a red flag because you have to be very conscious of, you know, there is in a therapeutic relationship, the patient knows that, you know, who he or she is or what they stand for, how wealthy they are or anything like that. And that has to be acknowledged and kind of built into that therapeutic dynamic.

[James Reed]

So you have no idea who he is. Well, that's dishonest, isn't it? For a start.

[Jan Gerber]

But we did. And funny thing that actually, we did. We did have quite a famous Hollywood actress who I did. I think I was the only person who knew who she was before she came, because I had her on the phone. And we kind of agreed we wouldn't really tell the team that that person is coming. But obviously then the therapists. I remember one of our psychotherapists and who worked with her just walked into the treatment room with her and was like, okay, I am just watching a series where she was starring as the main character. And then what kind of made for a funny human moment. But in the end, it's really just acknowledging that professionally that there is something to that. And, you know, people are starstruck to a certain degree, from very minimal, pragmatic there, as a therapist should be, to, oh, my God. But nobody's like, I don't care. This.

[James Reed]

You know, there's a different. There's a recognition. It's almost at some level, like you think, well, I know that person, even if you don't.

[Jan Gerber]

And that's another factor, actually, is. That's very important because often the role portrayed by a business leader or a celebrity or doesn't matter, somebody successful is rarely how they perceive themselves or who they really are. They kind of. They bull themselves with. With their quirks and kinks and anxieties and everything. So to give them the feeling, the genuine feeling that they're really seen as a human being, that's not. That's a quality that, you know, doesn't come just because you're a qualified therapist. So that's also something to kind of look out for.

[James Reed]

So how long would a. I mean, obviously every situation, every person is different. But how long would someone typically stay with you for?

[Jan Gerber]

The average is about six weeks. Again, as you say, it depends on the condition and everything. But we also. We are very pragmatic. So we did have. Actually, business leaders should stay for a week or so because they just. They couldn't step out of. Of their role for several weeks without, you know, risking their career, stock market performance, all of that. And then even in one week, just, you know, focus on stabilizing somebody and then putting a kind of a structure in place. A therapist can travel back with them, they can come over for the weekends, or we can put a. I mean, it's possible we've done that. Put a whole treatment team around somebody and kind of in their home or business environment.

[James Reed]

So your clients come from all over the world, but they are coming to Zurich in the first. In Switzerland in the first instance.

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah, most clients come first to Zurich and our clientele is globally mobile. It doesn't really matter. Yes, it's a flight away, right?

[James Reed]

No, quite. And you, then the first week is so important, you'll say, but you, I mean, you know, as a business leader, you can easily take a sabbatical for four, six weeks. I'm just going to notice.

[Jan Gerber]

Well, ideally you do. Well, I, I don't know. I guess it depends, right? It's a. If you're a professional CEO, it doesn't matter if you found a manager, professionally hired, right. Taking a few weeks absence, which seems untypical, then you know, for you and your tenure, people start asking questions and that's often issue we face because it's exponentially more sustainable for the outcomes and you know, for the healing process. If somebody has six weeks versus even four weeks, really and expansion, obviously exponentially more four weeks versus just a few days.

[James Reed]

That's interesting. So you do need to invest the time in this.

[Jan Gerber]

And I cannot stress that enough to all our clients. And we clients, you know, say, you know, I'm, I'm very intelligent. I can, you know, I can absorb more than the average person. You hit, hit me with all the therapy. Hit me, you know, 14 hours a day. It's not about that. It's, you know, it's. The brain has to adjust. A lot happens in the subconscious. You have to kind of process things between therapy sessions. And also your whole physical system needs time to recover. There's no shortcut to that.

[James Reed]

So six weeks is the advised start.

[Jan Gerber]

A six week is good. Rarely people commit for six weeks upfront, but it gives us so much more to work with than if it's four weeks or less.

[James Reed]

So one of the things I want to ask you about is I went to a seminar a little while ago about psychedelics. I think you have a view on psychedelics I do have as a potential treatment for anxiety and depression. Is that right?

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

What is your view.

[Jan Gerber]

My view is, and I'm sure that's shared by most people out there who are kind of following this space or in this space. I would say there's 100% certainty that in the next few years we see psychedelics as an important pillar in mental health treatment and psychiatry. It's been clearly established in research that it can be immensely powerful for certain conditions. More conditions are now being researched, like eating disorders, substance abuse. There's also already promising emerging research. So not just depression, anxiety disorders and end of life research where it started with, and there's very little side effects to practically no risk if done properly. I'm not. Don't do it at a rave. Right. But within a therapeutic setting. So that's, that's really.

[James Reed]

But why is it taking so long? Because I heard this before the pandemic and we're now five, six years on and you're still saying in the Future, you said 100% likelihood. Yeah, but it's taking so long. Why, what's the vested interests at work here?

[Jan Gerber]

It's. But you say vested interests. I think there's several reasons. One is politics is slow and traditionally, I mean, when I went to school it was like all drugs are bad and psychedelics is equal to cocaine and heroin and, you know, everything else that's bad out there. Cannabis back then was still, you know, was still kind of taught the same way. So it takes some time to change that. These substances were scheduled globally a while.

[James Reed]

Back, but the way you're describing it would be in a medically sort of managed situation. It's not like going to parties and hit some.

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

You know, you're talking about it being used to treat.

[Jan Gerber]

Exactly. But there's, there's a legal restriction of.

[James Reed]

Drugs that are used to treat people unwell. That would be illegal to use at a party.

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah, no 100%. The problem is. So there is, you know, there's different schedule levels of, of substances. Right. And a few decades back, psychedelics have been scheduled as no medical use and dangerous and highly addictive, which is all not true. So those are untrue. All those things are untrue. But the legal framework is still there. And to change something so long, it takes time and it takes lobbying, it takes research and all that. So that's one thing. And on the other side, and I'm also in that camp, there have to be. There's a camp that's of the view that there has to be established enough established research and also protocols how to use. So if you just know that you know, psilocybin, magic mushrooms can be very effective for treatment of trauma or depression. But how do you use it? You don't just give somebody magic mushrooms. Like, what's the dose? How do it? Several. Do you. Several times. In which setting do you talk to them? Do they just listen to music? Preparation and integration are key. So there's plenty of research there now already, but these protocols are still kind of emerging. So that's why it takes time. But now, I mean, there's states in the US there's Australia, there's different places in the world where the therapeutic use of psychedelics has been legalized.

[James Reed]

And how's it going in those terms?

[Jan Gerber]

And. Well, the problem is when you legalize before you have kind of an infrastructure in place, then it's, you know, you need a kind of pharmacy where they get it from. You need a legal process how to prescribe, where to order. And then you need to have the people trained. The therapists need to first do those trainings. Right. So ideally, and that's what we do as well. So we work with ketamine, which is legal also in the UK and in many places in the world for certain mental health conditions and which can be quite effective. It's not a classic psychedelic like, but on the. It's a lot of insights and trainings around that. So. And we already train our doctors and therapists in kind of psychedelic protocols. These trainings are now available, even though strictly it's. It's. It will be a few more years until it's fully legal to. To use these substances in.

[James Reed]

This must give you some optimism that there's advances that are on the horizon and that can be made that will really help a lot of people.

[Jan Gerber]

I'm very optimistic about it particularly also, I mean, the economics of health care generally. Right. But the mental health care particularly as well is this. There's not enough therapists and. And it takes so much time to kind of help somebody through a mental health crisis or issue. And psychedelics have been kind of recognized as, in many of these cases, to act as a catalyst, you know, kind of very conducive. You can achieve so much in such very little time. So that also will help. The whole system is currently completely overloaded to just help more people, I've heard.

[James Reed]

I don't know if it's the right way to describe it, to use a computing analogy. They sort of help reboot the brain.

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah, brain plasticity. That's exactly what research currently thinks is. You know, it's one of the main yeah. Which is fantastic. Powerful. Yeah.

[James Reed]

So I think just sort of coming back to where we began, I mean, I'm just thinking of our listeners, a lot of people who are in business, entrepreneurs, CEOs, you know, they might be struggling with their mental health. I mean we all have good days, we have bad days. I mean the anxiety and depression is widespread in society, all ages and stages, it seems.

[Jan Gerber]

Oh yeah.

[James Reed]

So can you, can you give some sort of tips that people can apply in that? I mean we've discussed a few. But in their day to day lives that will help us, each and every one of us, manage the challenges of life.

[Jan Gerber]

Right. So it's a, particularly to the, let's say business lead entrepreneur executive population because I think there is more pressure that, you know, kind of leads to mental health issues but also more pressure to hide it. So it's kind of double bind in a way. So particularly that population, I think really a crucial and helpful and important way to go about it is foster an open dialogue. You can start within your family, your relationships, but ideally also within the management structure. In a management meeting or in a board meeting with the top executives, it should become normal. Like, how have you been lately? How is your sleep? Right. All the way to where you said a board meeting.

[James Reed]

How are you sleeping?

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah, yeah. I mean I've never done that. Well, give it a try, tell me how it's going. And people might first be like, that's kind of private information. No, but I'm also an advocate that mental health of key personnel should be part of risk management frameworks of larger corporations. Because that's often you can hedge your currency risk and your legal risks and everything, but if, you know, if people risk person, it's just kind of a crash completely.

[James Reed]

Right.

[Jan Gerber]

So you know, from mandatory mental health checks to. And so on.

[James Reed]

But hang on, you just said mandatory mental health checks. Yeah. I mean, what's that involved? Never heard this either. I mean, so you say to your team, you have to go off and see a doctor for a mental health.

[Jan Gerber]

Check once every six months or once a year. You have to. There are some corporations that do that. Yeah.

[James Reed]

And how do they know that people receive that?

[Jan Gerber]

Again, it depends how we contextualize it. It's like, I think you're all ill. You know, it's, well, I don't trust you and you have to talk to.

[James Reed]

That therapist, introduce this to my team. But go on, talk me through this because it's, I've never heard this before either.

[Jan Gerber]

It's very interesting. If you frame that As a win win, which it is. You know, it's obviously there's immense personal pain that can result from somebody becoming unwell. So, you know, you will benefit yourself if you kind of obliged to do occasionally see a therapist for mental health check in so that there can be early detection. Now we are in.

[James Reed]

You just remind me of the James Bond film. He kept failing his test after he checked out by them. Yep. That's robustly returns to the fray. You know, there's almost a stage stereotype about doing that, isn't there? But you're saying it's a good thing.

[Jan Gerber]

Oh, no, that's. That, that's. That's actually very true. And, and some business leaders will struggle to, you know, to open up and don't.

[James Reed]

Wouldn't people worry that they might lose their job if that they get a report coming back to the CEO saying this.

[Jan Gerber]

It has to be set up properly and framed properly. So I have, you know, good friends working at, you know, one of the big companies that's been famous Internet companies that's been famous for making therapists or make making therapists accessible for their staff. But people don't access it apparently because they're, you know, somewhere your manager knows.

[James Reed]

Well, that would be a worry, I think.

[Jan Gerber]

Exactly. So but if the top person, you know, the president of the board or CEO says look, I'm doing it myself and I want you of you all to do it as well. And you know, for this and those reasons and also obviously ensure confidentiality around that Anyhow, so that's. We're talking now kind of, you know, risk management, big structure. But generally if you're an entrepreneur, if you're, if you're a business leader and you know, stress is part of your everyday life. We talked about if you feel your sleep going in a certain direction, if you feel anxiety creeping in, brain foggy, you know, sooner than later, rather now just either get a kind of therapeutic coach or even just see a proper psychotherapist because that's likely then to just go downhill otherwise.

[James Reed]

So you're advising seeing a psychotherapist to a lot of people would be helpful.

[Jan Gerber]

And a lot of people are open about that. There was a guy on LinkedIn the other day who I was like, I have. My therapist has an observing board seat. That's progressive.

[James Reed]

Well, so the therapist comes to the board.

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah.

[James Reed]

Right.

[Jan Gerber]

Can't vote, but can observe. Right, but that's interesting. Yeah, I think that's the way to go.

[James Reed]

Okay, that's very interesting. And what about if you're not an entrepreneur but you feel very challenged at work. You know there's a problem with burnout potentially or is there anything we might suggest that be helpful?

[Jan Gerber]

Prioritize self care. And I think that's what most people affected are most afraid of, right. Is kind of take that time off or put your phone away once you step out of the office. Because we all, we live in a time where you feel, I don't know if your manager should know that you've responded to the message even late night, but your career is not going to crash and burn if you put some boundaries. But it like, like more, much more likely will crash and burn if you don't. And if you just let that escalate.

[James Reed]

Prioritize self care. Yeah. And on, on this question of sort of getting mental health checks and encouraging people to do that and you said it's a good idea to do it every six months. There is I suspect a fear among some people that they might be exposed in some way and that might make their job, put their job at risk. Is that something you can reassure us about?

[Jan Gerber]

Well, luckily in this country and in say most western democracies anyways, there's a sound legal framework in place that you cannot lose your job over a mental health condition. But I understand that worry. If your superior learns about that, you might struggle with certain things that when you're up for promotion versus somebody else who does not struggle with issues. But I think as we get more so a it's not legal to discriminate on that part and B, I think as we become more aware also people in leadership positions, they would just not be inclined to see somebody as with less potential to bring value to a company if they struggle with certain issues. I would actually go go the other way and say in many areas of business you actually want to select for certain issues like neurodivergence. I'd want, in certain positions, I'd want people with ADHD more than somebody without because these traits come with tremendous value as well. So it's not black and white. So I wouldn't worry about losing a job over it and I would encourage everybody to.

[James Reed]

But that's an important message for managers and entrepreneurs and people listening that this is a really positive step and you know you're not going to lose your job. So we've been talking a lot about mental health. I've heard this sort of expression mental health. I worry sometimes it makes it sound like someone might be unwell, but I've heard the expression mental fitness as well. I Mean some of what you've been talking about in terms of getting support for the board, could that be positioned as mental fitness?

[Jan Gerber]

Absolutely.

[James Reed]

Do you like that idea?

[Jan Gerber]

It's two sides of the same coin in a way, Right.

[James Reed]

To me it's a more positive.

[Jan Gerber]

Yeah, yeah, I like that. And things sell best, better if they're framed positively. Right. In the end, there's probably this, let's. I see this where there's kind of a, you know, a baseline and things can go downhill from there. And then you can call that emotionally unwell or mental illness. And if things go, you know, particularly well or you have much more resilience or you want to build that resilience, it's kind of up from that baseline, but it's the same thing.

[James Reed]

It's also the same fitter mentally.

[Jan Gerber]

It's the same tools. Building mental resilience is the same as preventing mental health, health falling out to mental health issues. It's again, it's a fitness, it's a meditation. It's the fostering healthy relationships, the prioritizing self care, all that. It's the same thing, really.

[James Reed]

Well, that's a nice. I think that's a good point on which to conclude really. So we can always get even better in our mental health and become fitter in a way through doing some of the things that you've kindly talked us through.

[Jan Gerber]

We can, and I would even go as far as we should, we have to. We owe it to ourselves, we owe it to our families, we owe it to our, to our employees that we prioritize that.

[James Reed]

Thank you. Yeah, thank you very much. I so enjoyed talking to you. I'm going to ask you two more questions that I always ask questions, sort of signature questions for this podcast. The first is I think I know the answer. But what gets you up on a Monday morning?

[Jan Gerber]

Do you know the answer if you say you know the answer?

[James Reed]

Well, I think your passion for what you do. I don't want to put words into your mouth.

[Jan Gerber]

I'm a die hard pragmatist. Right. So my answer is. It depends. Sometimes it's the coffee and just because I have to. And no. But yeah, passion helps. Right. It's particularly as a business leader, entrepreneur, but generally for any job or whatever you do, you know, that Monday or that week, if you have a passion for it, it's a lot. I know light years difference by magnitudes, difference in effort it takes than if you feel you have to.

[James Reed]

Yeah. And then the last question is a question from my interview book. One of the 101 questions which is asked of people a lot is where do you see yourself in five years time?

[Jan Gerber]

I have absolutely no idea. I can answer that honestly because I'm not applying for a job. Right. I still see myself I think in a mental health space. So no, I do have a vision obviously, but I've had it. I'll tell you about that. But my life experience has showed me that you have no, you just have no clue where you are in five years because things happen, opportunities come, crisis has come and. And you just have to kind of navigate that.

[James Reed]

No, I suppose it is your vision in a sense of where do you see yourself through that?

[Jan Gerber]

Exactly.

[James Reed]

I'm referring to what is that?

[Jan Gerber]

That's alongside my passion is I think I can make a difference in fostering the mental health dialogue. Dialogue and the niche of intersection of wealth or significant wealth and mental health and entrepreneurship and business leadership. That's where there's. The dialogue is still. It needs a lot of fuel and I think I can really make a difference there which overall then feeds into I think the overall mental health awareness and kind of breaking through the stigma. There's still lots of work to do. That's my path. So that gets me up Monday morning and it's also where I see myself more in five years.

[James Reed]

Very good. Thank you very much for coming all the way from Zurich to talk to me today.

[Jan Gerber]

Been a real pleasure. Thank you.

[James Reed]

Thank you to Jan for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reed, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reid Yan or Paracelsus Recovery, you can find all links in the show notes. See you next time.