A (2:43)

Yeah, I think to one extent it's easier. Like it's so much easier to tell somebody, stop looking at pornography.

B (2:51)

Sure.

A (2:51)

Than to help them understand how they look at pornography because they're lonely or because they have wounds that haven't been addressed in the past. Like, we can talk about behavior. Like even a two year old can understand, do this, don't do this. But it requires some depth and insight and maturity to even understand what an identity is.

B (3:16)

Well, you mentioned a small child. Sometimes, even when you address behaviors with a kid, you can tell it's not a heart thing yet. You know, like, tell them you're sorry, sorry. You know, it's just, they're instantly, fine, I'll do the behavior, I'll jump through your hoop. But I'm not changed yet. I'm not even sure I want to change yet.

A (3:32)

Right.

B (3:33)

So I think that that's one of the things we slip into as adults. We're like, okay, fine, I'll adjust my behavior for as long as I possibly can, two hours a day, a week. But because we haven't had the heart change.

A (3:44)

Right.

B (3:44)

We're not ready to do it. So you mentioned, you hinted and kind of teased last week the idea of some identity traps, because that's kind of the other side of it too, is I'm not sure I want to engage all of that. So, like, what are some of these identity traps that we can find ourselves stuck in?

A (3:59)

Yeah, boy, there are so many. And we can look at what's happening in culture today and we'll talk about some identity traps that are unique for culture. But Joe, I think that this has been an age old problem of we don't know who we are in Christ Jesus. And so even as you teach or read the scripture, you see identity issues in the Old Testament, the New Testament, that were about like legalism or shame. And those are some of the ones that we're gonna talk about today. But I think we gotta understand, like, the spiritual battle for people's hearts and lives is not in behavior, it's in who are you? Like, what makes you you. And if we don't ultimately come to the answer, not just in our head, but in our heart, that I'm a child of God, I was created by Him, I have a purpose in him, he wants intimacy with Him, I'm loved by him, for. And like all those spiritual truths, if they don't take root then, you know, some people use the analogy we're just rearranging the furniture on the Titanic. You know, it looks a little bit better, but it's still a sinking ship. So you ask, what are some of those identity traps? Yeah, there are four that I write about in the book and we can touch on those four. Self discovery, shame, performance and relationship. So we can kind of unpack some of those.

B (5:23)

I feel like you just got into my journal and said, here's the four identity traps that Joe struggles with and Julie does.

A (5:29)

Yeah, that's how I know I've been there. Yeah. And I am there.

B (5:33)

They resonate so well. And so if we're looking at self discovery, like, how is that a trap? Because it feels so enlightening.

A (5:42)

Yeah. So a self discovery identity is really, this is pretty unique to, I think, our postmodern humanistic culture. Because postmodernism says there's really no external objective truth that you can trust. The best you can do is build a truth that works for you. And so it pressures us. Whether we realize it or not. It's everywhere in our culture to find what is true by looking inward and by sitting with our feelings, like identifying our desires and say, this is what it means to be me. And so we live in a culture that most obviously plays out in the sphere of sexuality of, you know, an eight year old saying, I like other girls, therefore I must be gay. And this kid hasn't even gone through puberty, but she's being taught at the youngest age that if you want to know who you are, if you want to be healthy, if you want to live an authentic life, you look at your desires, you look at your longings, you look at your preferences and you begin to build a sense of who you are based on that.

B (6:50)

Well, and we don't even allow an opportunity for people to define what those words mean.

A (6:55)

Yeah.

B (6:55)

You know, because growing up in elementary school, the eight year old, like, yeah, I like my friends.

A (7:00)

Yes.

B (7:00)

Well, if we interpret that as, oh, you have a sexual connection and attraction to one of your friends. Well, yeah, we just blew the whole conversation wide open to who knows what as opposed to, I just like it when I'm around my friends.

A (7:12)

Yeah.

B (7:12)

And why can't that be okay? And then of course, it gets much, much deeper than that and there are other issues.

A (7:17)

But yeah, and I think even with that, take the average little girl, you know, 8 to 12 year old girl, her first attachment is very likely to gonna be with another girl.

B (7:28)

Sure.

A (7:28)

Like, it's just she's my best friend.

B (7:30)

Like, yeah, my daughter's smack in the middle of that age group. And that's exactly it.

A (7:33)

Yeah, you're gonna have a best friend and it's going to be your first experience of intimacy. And in our culture, intimacy equates to sexuality instead of intimacy being healthy connection with another human being. And so you're absolutely right that some of what complicates this is the definitions we put on it. Or another example might be a young man who likes artistic things, isn't competitive, doesn't like sports, isn't macho, likes the arts, and now begins to question, well, maybe I'm not a real man. Because a real man is XY Y and Z. And so self discovery trap. And it can be for young people, but it can be for anyone. Where we begin to define what is most important about us based on what's inside of us, our longings and our desires.

B (8:25)

You mentioned the word in there that I think at a minimum some of our listeners would have stuck on. And that's this idea of feelings, like why can't we trust our feelings when it comes to our identity and discovering where we're supposed to go?

A (8:37)

Yeah, it's not a safe compass. I mean, it's always changing. So our feelings are a good indication of what's happening in us, but not a good indication of who we are. And the other thing we have to reconcile is that the Bible tells us that because we are sinful creatures, we live in a fallen world. We actually can't even trust our desires. And I know some people don't like hearing that, but the scripture says that you have desires that war against your soul, right? That you have this old man in you, not like an old gray 90 year old, like the flesh, the part of you that is the sin nature or the nature of Adam that has desires that will lead you astray. And that's in direct contradiction to what our culture tells us, which is your desires will lead you to life.

B (9:27)

I was just talking with a guy today who was talking about some of those desires and him being shocked at what he felt himself wanting to do. It was not that long ago. A few months back, he said, I just kind of woke up one morning and then it stuck for about four months. He's like, I really wanted to quit my job. I wanted to leave my family. I wanted to go start another thing. I didn't care if I was going to make money. He goes, I wanted to dismantle every healthy part of my life and I couldn't Tell you why. But he had all these feelings. And he goes, the desire was strong. He goes, if it weren't for the counsel of a good godly friend, I think I would have blown up my life. It was. The feelings were that strong. And now looking back, he's like, I am so grateful I did not blow up my life. So to your point, something's happening in him, and that's. He's starting to explore that, but it doesn't mean they should control him.

A (10:17)

Yeah.

B (10:18)

And determine what he has to do.

A (10:19)

And I'm so glad that you use that example, because often we talk about the self discovery trap. Again, we immediately identify it with lgbt.

B (10:28)

Sure.

A (10:28)

Which is, I think, the most obvious example. But it's. If it kind of plays into all of our lives.

B (10:35)

Sure does.

A (10:35)

You know, like, why do you get married? Because I have to marry the person who satisfies me and who completes me. And, you know, that sort of thinking. Couples that fall out of love, you know, they no longer want to be married or have feelings for each other, and you begin making decisions based on, again, these desires that the scripture tells us are not trustworthy. Instead of being rooted in. Let me start with a fact that I am a new creation. I don't have to listen to that flesh anymore, that desire anymore. I pay attention to it and bring it before the Lord. But I recognize that is not who I am or what's going to bring me life.

B (11:14)

I can't imagine how many times I would have blown up my life if I simply just went after whatever I was attracted to. Everything from a piece of chocolate cake to another visit to chick fil a to an attractive woman. If I would run after my attractions and my desires and my feelings every time they sparked, my life would be an absolute cesspool of a mess.

A (11:34)

Yeah. And that's true of all of us.

B (11:36)

Yeah. And so, like, there's logic in it, and then there's spiritual life in it. If we're willing to give it over to Jesus too, where he's like, yeah, life does not work well when you just do whatever you feel like. So that's really good.

A (11:49)

Yeah.

B (11:49)

What would be. Do you say shame was another identity trap? Like, walk us through why that's a trap.

A (11:55)

Yeah. So particularly when we talk about sexuality. You know, so many Christians want to avoid this topic because immediately they feel,

B (12:03)

I don't want to talk about it right now. Yeah.

A (12:05)

All right, There you go. Exhibit A. I think our sexuality is often linked with shame, just with the fact that we even look in Genesis, it says, before sin entered the world, Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed.

B (12:19)

Yeah.

A (12:20)

So what does that mean? Now we're naked and ashamed. You know, and so there's an inherent sense of, I'm not quite sure what to do with this part of me. These are the parts of our body physically that we cover up. And so there's a privacy, there's a hiding, there's a shame that we don't quite know what to do with. But then you add on top of it, every single human being on the face of the planet has in some way sin sexually.

B (12:46)

Yep.

A (12:47)

Absolutely. Because Jesus said, if your thoughts are lustful, then spiritually that's the same as acting on them.

B (12:54)

Right.

A (12:55)

And so now we not only have the inherent sense of nakedness or exposure, we have laid on top of it. This idea of this topic is bringing up feelings of, I've done something wrong.

B (13:09)

Yes.

A (13:10)

And perhaps I can't stop doing something wrong. I can't stop lusting, I can't stop looking at pornography. I hate my body, like all these things. And so a lot of people, particularly around this topic, have a whole identity of, I've blown it. Like, I am a sinner, I've messed up, I've cheated on my spouse, I have an addiction, whatever it might be. There's a lot of shame that just clouds this and to the point where you don't even know. You don't even want to think about God having anything to do with your sexuality because it's just so. It feels so condemning.

B (13:49)

I love that you brought up those words in Matthew about Jesus saying, even if you lust, because I think our tendency, probably because of shame, is to hear that judgmentally, hear that with the giant finger pointing right at you and saying, see, you've messed up. See, you're a mess. And I actually think Jesus is trying to do the opposite. I think he's trying to even the playing field. So the A, were less likely to shame each other, but B, to realize, no, you all need a heart level healing when it comes to this area of your life. So just to look at someone else that you think is some cultural definition of the worst definition of a sexual sinner, you have to realize, no, just you're equally as broken on the inside. Maybe it's just played out a little bit differently in public, but you also need the healing of Christ. And so I love that we don't have to lean into our shame as a part of our identity and that Jesus offers something different.

A (14:47)

Yeah. A few things related to what you said. You know, first of all, Jesus said this as, you know, like, in the context of the Sermon on the Mount. And so that was just one piece of it. Like, then he gets to anger, he gets to judging. He gets all these things, like our motives and the holy things we do, like prayer and fasting. And by the end of it, like, no one's standing. You know, like, everybody has been exposed. And he really doesn't give you the solution.

B (15:15)

Not yet.

A (15:16)

You know, he is the solution, but it's not revealed yet. And I think you're so right in saying, like, the purpose of that was to expose our need for him.

B (15:26)

When I think that the listeners. Because he does mention, I didn't come to abolish the law, I came to fulfill it. And I think at that exact moment, like you said, he didn't give a strong solution yet, but I think he was hinting at, not, I came to write the end of the law. He literally came to fulfill it. And so the law, if we're like, yeah, at the letter of the law, I have messed up. I've been super angry, I've been super lustful, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But if you depend upon Christ, he completes the gap that all of our sin creates.

A (15:55)

Yeah.

B (15:55)

And he will break that shame. He will break those issues. He will cure and heal our sin and then help us move forward to life. So, yeah, it's a beautiful picture, but you're right. At that moment, they would have been incredibly confused. Well, then what do we do?

A (16:08)

Yes.

B (16:08)

What hope do we have?

A (16:09)

I know. Yeah. Yeah. And in some ways, I think that is all of our journey to get to the place. Like, even if you know the Gospel, to get to the place where you are like, what hope do I have? And so you made this statement a few minutes ago. Like, we don't have to lean into that shame. I think in one sense, we do. And that's the only way that we are recovered from it. Like, because I think there's a lot of people who walk around with, like, a cloud of shame.

B (16:38)

Sure. Yep.

A (16:38)

Around sexuality or other issues that they never name.

B (16:42)

That's good.

A (16:42)

And if you never name it and you never confess it, then you never get to lay it down at the feet of Jesus, even if it's already covered. So I think this is probably the most prominent one that I see and experiences, you know, And I will tell Christians, I'm like, if you are a follower of Jesus and you're walking with shame, you lack integrity and they'll do exactly that. Like, what does that mean? You know, because so often we think the lack of integrity is. I'm a Christian and I just looked at porn and it is a lack of integrity. But the greater integrity. Lack of integrity is if I'm a Christian, that means that I believe what Jesus said, that he carried my sin on the cross, that it is finished. And if I continue to walk in shame, like I'm saying, I believe one thing, but I'm living according to something else. That I have to pay for my sin by feeling miserable, by keeping myself, you know, from intimacy or pleasure, by sabotaging myself.

B (17:46)

Excellent. That is real, like, mic drop moment. That is so, so good. It also made me think that how alone we often feel in our shame. If we look around our household or look up and down the rows at our church or wherever we might be, we assume we're the only ones.

A (18:02)

Yeah.

B (18:03)

Carrying that shame. And that is such a lie of the enemy, you know, to isolate us and make us. And that keeps us from naming. It keeps us from bringing it out into the light. And then we can't embrace the healing and what the cross brings to us if we're gonna sit there up by ourselves.

A (18:16)

Yeah. Yeah, you're so right. Yeah. And that's why we have these conversations, is to give people a place to actually talk about some of these things.

B (18:24)

Sure. I love it. And if I can, like, address the men in particular, like, have the conversation. I don't know if that's just me coming out here or if it's my experience with other men, but do not assume that you cannot bring this up and to have those conversations, please do it.

A (18:48)

Hey, friend, it's Julie with a quick reminder that my new book, Surrender sexuality, comes out July 1. Now, this book is not about the rules of Christian sexuality. It's all about learning to trust God with your questions, your desires, and with your pain. And when you pre order between now and July 1st, we would love to give you a free prayer guide that I created to help you invite God into to those intimate and vulnerable places that sexuality often represents. So you can discover how knowing Jesus really does change everything. Just head to authenticanmc.com surrendered sexuality. Or you can just click the link in the show notes and get your free prayer guide delivered straight to your inbox. Now back to my conversation at the coffee shop.

B (19:40)

Okay, this next one feels a little bit personal as well, because I'm an enneagram3, so achievement, performance is all the things. And that's your third trap that you're identifying here. So, like, walk us through why performance would be an issue.

A (19:54)

Yeah, so performance is sort of the other side of the coin of shame. You know, like, even when Jesus was giving the sermon on the mount, he was speaking to two kinds of people. He was speaking to the people that were lost and knew they were lost. And then he was speaking to the religious leaders who felt like they were fulfilling the law. And Jesus is calling out like, your behavior is good, but I know your heart. But their belief was, if I can do this right or I can do it at least better than the average person, then I'm in right standing with God. And there's a sense of self righteousness, there's a sense of pride. And I think in conversations around sexuality in the church, we can have a real us versus them kind of tone. Like we're the ones who are doing it right. You're the sinner. Or purity. Culture was a big piece of this too. Of there's a way that you can achieve kind of your own self righteousness, your own purity if you avoid these behaviors. And so, yeah, this is one that I've struggled with too. And not just in the realm of sexuality, but in my faith. If there's a list of rules, then the person who keeps the rules, the best, must be more loved by God. And so it's that sort of thinking that keeps us away from intimacy with God and the true gospel.

B (21:15)

One of my favorite mysteries in the scriptures is in John 8 when the adulterous woman is brought before Jesus. And like you said, it's so obvious to the people there that she messed up. But Jesus says, he who has no sin cast the first stone. And he's writing it. That's the mystery. He's writing in the dirt. And whatever it is that he does gets everyone's attention to realize, apparently she's no worse than I am. And realizing that there's no room for me to condemn someone else when I'm also condemned already too. And so I probably get the most holy anger if I'm being honest as a leader, when I watch other people just compare themselves to other people. Yeah, like, well, I'm fine. I don't have to fix that. I don't need to work on that with my spouse. I don't need to work on that area of my life because I'm better than so and so. And being an ex football player, I want to like body slam that mindset right out of them.

A (22:06)

You know, like, even though you said that you struggle with it too.

B (22:09)

I think maybe that's why I resonate with it because I know what it does inside of me, you know, because I started excusing when, when I'm in my worst moments, I excuse my behavior, I excuse my issues and my desires because, well, I'm not doing that.

A (22:23)

Yes.

B (22:23)

And then when I become enlightened and aware and Jesus points out to me like, listen Joe, you're no better and you K N o W, you know better that you shouldn't be judging people like this and realizing your issues. I'm like, oh my gosh, that's right. And so I resonate when I see that and then it makes me like, can I help you see this too?

A (22:43)

Right.

B (22:44)

You know, because it's not helpful.

A (22:46)

No, you're right. And you know, I've been doing this ministry now for about 13 years and boy would I have been this camp in the beginning. But now I hear it more and I know it more because God has shown me. But I hear so often people saying, oh, by the grace of God, I don't struggle with pornography and I'm not gay. And you know, it's like, what does that mean? You know, like it just reminds me of the story Jesus told of the religious leader who's looking at the tax collector and he's saying, I thank God that I'm not like these other people, like this tax collector. And he even gives thanks to God, he doesn't take credit for it. But you're saying I'm in a different category than these other individuals. Instead of realizing like my sin might be more hidden, it might be more sophisticated, I may have even tricked myself into believing it's not that bad. But I in truth, like, if I really understand my identity with Christ, I am in need of him every day.

B (23:48)

Yes.

A (23:49)

That although I am cleansed, although I'm a child of God in my flesh, I cannot achieve the holiness of God.

B (23:57)

I think that what you just said there reminds Me of John 13 and Jesus washing the disciples feet. Because Jesus walks that line with Peter. He's like, well, you've already been washed as a follower of Christ. Your sin is at the foot of the cross. And yet if you don't let me wash your feet, we're not going to have the close relationship that you're longing for. And so each and every day we need him. Each and every day it's like, Jesus, help me to walk the way that you would walk, say what you would say. Help my heart to be transformed, to be more and more like You. But if we walk away from Jesus in those moments, to continue to use his metaphor, that's when our feet continue to get dirtier and dirtier and we find ourselves no better off than anyone else.

A (24:35)

Yeah, John Newton, who wrote the hymn Amazing Grace, some people might know of his biography, but he was a wicked man, slave trader, abused people, sexually abused people, like just, you know, like a drunkard, like everything you can imagine. He was radically saved. Like, God just chased him down. And then he devoted his life to Christ and to ministry and of obviously wrote that song, Amazing Grace that we sing. But on his deathbed, like, these are the last recorded words he said. He said, I'm old, but two things I know, I'm a great sinner and I have a great savior. And it's that realization of the two things. Like, if you know you are a great sinner, but you don't know you have a great savior, you'll be in shame. Yes, if you know you have a great savior and you have forgotten that you are a great sinner, you'll be in performance. And so Jesus wants to save us from both of those traps.

B (25:34)

Yep. It's so true. So true. I'm being ministered to as we speak. It's good. Well, there's a fourth trap that you walk in through in your book, the relationship trap. So kind of cycling back to some intimacy and connection conversations. So what makes relational connections a trap?

A (25:54)

Yeah, so it's the belief that I must have somebody to be somebody.

B (25:59)

Yeah.

A (25:59)

And it even goes beyond loneliness. Like, we have a lot of loneliness in our culture, but then a lot of that loneliness is fed by. The only way that I can be valuable is if somebody knows me, somebody loves me, somebody chooses me. And a lot of it, I think, stems from what we talked about earlier. If you think that all intimacy is sexual, then you don't have the capacity to have intimate community and relationships that really feed you. And so the focus becomes, you know, for the girl, like, I have to have a guy, or more than one. Like, see me as beautiful, value me. Like, my body is so important. There can become an obsession with that. The same with a guy. Like, I'm nobody until somebody wants me. My whole identity is based on what this one person thinks of me. It can even be in marriage that my identity is my marriage. It's how my spouse treats me. And if our marriage is not going well, like, it's not just a sadness. It's like, I'm crushed because that's who I am. And so it's this idea that another person has the capacity through romantic love, through marriage, whatever it might be, to complete me.

B (27:20)

Right.

A (27:20)

And without that, you know, like, I'm nothing. And I think it also again, plays into Christians who might be same sex attracted because it's that feeling like, how can I be whole if I can't have this?

B (27:34)

Right?

A (27:35)

And so marriage becomes elevated to essential instead of a gift of God.

B (27:42)

It's amazing how we take good things and make them God things. The only one that can satisfy us, and I think we have to slow down and hear that. The only one that's able to satisfy us is our Creator is our Savior. There is nothing and no one else that can do that. And yet we put that pressure on so many things. And I know I've been guilty of that with my role playing football back in college, but then certainly I had years where I was building up a subtle resentment toward my spouse because she wasn't showing up when I wanted her to show up and she wasn't doing things that I wanted her to do. And I, like, knew better than to let that fester, but I couldn't shake it. But it's because I suddenly realized that, like, oh, I'm demanding God level things from another imperfect person and we can't do that.

A (28:34)

Yeah, boy. And Joe, in reality, every single one of us can at some level identify with all four of these traps. And you start in the traps, like from the time we're little. These are our human nature and Jesus wants to save us from these traps. And when we really see people find freedom from sexual struggles and sexual sin is actually when they're freed from these traps. And so the deepest work that God wants to do in our life to really free us is the work of identity. Again, it's a work that a lot of people don't know how to do. They have trouble finding space to do that where they can really dig into. What do I say that I believe, but I don't really believe in my heart of hearts. Sure.

B (29:22)

You're really strongly getting at this idea that it's probably more than knowledge.

A (29:27)

Yes.

B (29:27)

So just because we heard this conversation, we're not suddenly fixed in this area. So if it's not just okay, I know that I have some traps in my way of thinking, what do I do from there? What does it take?

A (29:39)

Yeah. So the subtitle of Surrender Sexuality is How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything. And boy, this has been my journey with the Lord. I think many of us can be saved for a long time and not really Know Jesus?

B (29:53)

Yes.

A (29:54)

Like, we've accepted him as our Savior. We may know the scripture, we may go through the motions of church and again, trying to please him, but we don't know him. And so, really, the two pieces of freedom come in. Knowing the true Jesus, which we'll talk more and more about as we sort of unpack this series. But then, second of all, being known in community, it's such a powerful aspect that I think a lot of us are missing in church, which is why I love what you all do at Grace and other churches that really emphasize community being known. Having spaces where I can take the mask off and I can be honest with the fact that, you know, like, boy, I've been depressed because I'm not married or, you know, like, I don't have kids and I feel like I don't belong, or I'm struggling with porn, and I can't stop. Like, I feel like God can't love me anymore. Like, to have those spaces where we can be that level of honest.

B (30:53)

Yeah.

A (30:54)

And seek the Lord together, that is really the path of freedom.

B (30:58)

Yep. So, Julie, we've talked about some of these identity traps, and in case we have, like, a flyby listener that just catches this one episode, like, okay, I resonate with these traps, but what are some, like, key foundational things we need to know about our identity?

A (31:12)

Yeah. So even when I say these things, people are gonna be like, oh, yeah, I know that. Like, God thought of you before the creation of the world. Like, he has chosen you in Christ. You know, Ephesians tells us that we are holy in his sight, which is amazing. Like, I can't even wrap my mind around it. But the key is that you have to get to a place where you're pursuing Jesus and believing him in such a way that those words carry weight.

B (31:41)

Yeah.

A (31:42)

So sometimes I'll use the example, Joe, of, like, you know, if. If you have a stranger come up to you and just, you know, say, joe, you're a great guy. I just love you. Like, you're amazing. You're like, okay, thanks.

B (31:55)

Sure.

A (31:56)

Like, how did you know me? Like, did you hear me preach or what?

B (31:59)

Right.

A (31:59)

But it doesn't hold meaning. But if your wife or your dad come up to you and say, joe, like, you're just amazing. You're such a wonderful guy. I just. I love you so much. Like, that hits differently, Right?

B (32:13)

It's hitting me now. Yeah, absolutely.

A (32:16)

Because you have a relational connection. And in reality, most of us take these truths that Jesus says to us, and we hear them like, they're second handed. Like you're telling me that Jesus loves me. You know, what really started to transform me was when I could hear Jesus say that to me and when I started to develop a personal enough relationship with him where it didn't feel like a stranger saying something, but it felt like somebody who truly has a relationship with me. And again, that's why it's so essential that we get into community and we begin to even study the Scripture and approach prayer in such a way that this is a real living God who is speaking not just to the world, but he's also speaking to you.

B (33:02)

Yes, yes.

A (33:03)

And then his truths begin to hold more weight than just a nice theological statement.

B (33:09)

Yeah, I love that so much. I feel like I've said multiple times on this episode alone, like, just how much that's a key thing. A key thing and a key thing. And I. Julie, I think it's because you've really nailed the central issue of how much identity affects us. And so I'm glad that not only our listeners are here today, but that they're hopefully diving into these resources and beginning that work of that transformational experience with Jesus.

A (33:35)

Yeah, well, thanks for joining me, Joe. And let me just say, like, that is our heart. That's why we do this podcast, is because we want to pursue Jesus in such a way that we're changed. And we want to encourage you to do that, to know Jesus in such a way that you don't feel condemned by your shame, that you don't feel like you just are a slave to your desires, that you don't feel like you have to have a relationship to be somebody, but that you know in your heart of hearts who Jesus says that you are. So I want to thank you for joining me for this episode of Job with Julie, and I hope that you'll stick with us as we continue to unpack this series of surrendered sexuality.