HEATED Twitter Space Debates! Islamic Dilemma & More! -Jay Dyer Call Ins

Summary

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Jay'sAnalysis – "HEATED Twitter Space Debates! Islamic Dilemma & More! -Jay Dyer Call Ins"

Host: Jay Dyer
Date: March 31, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Jay'sAnalysis features selected, spirited exchanges from Jay Dyer’s Twitter Spaces, focusing on live, unscripted debates with call-in participants about Islam, Protestantism, church history, theology, philosophy, and apologetics. The central theme is the “Islamic dilemma”—the charge that the Quran claims to confirm Torah and Gospel texts that Muslims also claim are corrupted—and other hot-button religious issues. The episode is marked by rapid-fire debate, polemical banter, and the show’s characteristic confrontational style.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The "Islamic Dilemma" – Quranic Confirmation of Corrupted Texts

Timestamps: 08:21–13:50, 16:01–19:56, 22:12–23:15, 69:23–84:38

• Jay reiterates the argument that the Quran claims to confirm the Torah and Gospel but Muslims charge these texts with corruption, leading to a logical impasse.
• Multiple Muslim callers attempt to respond; debate becomes heated and often circular, focusing on which Torah is confirmed and whether the Quran can be verified through a text considered corrupt by Muslims.
• Notable Quote:
  • "You disowned yourself...he didn’t realize he’s reading the Torah, and the Torah for him is a corrupted text. The Quran is confirmed by corrupted text." — Jay (12:15)
• The Orthodox participants press: If the Torah is corrupted, then the Quran’s self-attestation is invalid or incoherent.
• Muslim callers propose partial or selective confirmation, but are pressed on how to discern uncorrupted sections.
• Notable Quote:
  • “That’s a circular argument. So the Quran confirms the Quran by stating what’s in the Quran. Thank you.” — Jay (84:33)
• Repeated demand: “How could [the Quran] confirm [the Torah] if it’s corrupted?” — Jay & Orthodox Christian Debater (70:10, 70:24, 70:51, 84:07)
• Jay: “If it’s a penalty, then you can’t do it. It’s a... legal dissuader.” (18:08)

2. Morality and the Laws of Scripture – Rape Laws & Penalties

Timestamps: 09:30–19:56

• A Muslim debater insists the Bible allows rape; Orthodox and Jay contend biblical law imposes a penalty (not permission).
• Notable Exchange:
  • Muslim Debater: “So if I rape your daughter, would you be satisfied if I pay you 50 shekels?” (10:48)
  • Orthodox Christian Debater: “It’s not allowing for rape. You have to pay the dowry. That’s a penalty.” (10:42)
• Jay and others explain ancient penalties were deterrents, not permissions, contextualizing ancient Near Eastern culture.
• Jay: "It's actually dissuading you from committing rape. It's not saying you can commit rape, you idiot." (16:42)
• The debate highlights mutual accusations of textual immorality—with Orthodox participants pointing out that Islamic law also permitted slavery and concubinage.

3. Islamic Morality Debates – Concubines, Deception, and Apostasy

Timestamps: 21:00–22:09, 38:38–41:46, 44:02–44:24

• Discussion of Quranic allowance for multiple wives and concubines—contrasted with attempts in Mosaic law to "mitigate" such practices.
• Notable Quote:
  • "From an Islamic perspective, they have a carte blanche to do the thing they’re frowning on.” — Commentator (21:54)
• Orthodox participants highlight the Quran’s attribution of deception to Allah ("the greatest of deceivers").
• Apostasy punishments are contrasted: “The Orthodox Church never would subscribe—or at least, correct me if I’m wrong—that someone who apostatizes from Christianity ought to be punished capitally. That person should be turned to repentance.” — Commentator (38:06)
• Jay emphasizes historical, civil penalties in both faiths, contextualizing within medieval and ancient societies.

4. Literal vs. Symbolic Reading of Genesis and Theistic Evolution

Timestamps: 14:31–15:45, 56:38–57:14

• Callers inquire about Orthodox beliefs regarding the literal interpretation of Genesis, referencing authors (Matthew Pajo).
• Jay notes some within Orthodoxy accept theistic evolution but that church tradition (e.g., Byzantine calendar, Ecumenical Council statements) generally supports a young earth reading.
• Notable Quote:
  • “The Six Ecumenical Council says that you cannot say that death existed prior to Adam’s fall.” — Jay (15:28)

5. Church Authority, Sola Scriptura, and Apostolic Succession

Timestamps: 25:06–29:13, 62:45–63:02

• Protestant callers challenge the distinction between reliance on the Holy Spirit and church authority.
• Jay: “Every sect out there says they’re led by the Holy Spirit...what’s the public, objective thing that we could appeal to that would decide between all these different groups?” (25:35)
• The answer: The Church as an objective, historical entity teaching the same doctrine for 1,000+ years.
• On apostolic succession, resources are recommended:
  • Perry Robinson's YouTube talk on apostolic succession.
  • The letters of Paul to Timothy as evidence for transmission of authority.
• Notable Quote:
  • “No one else is appointed [but Timothy], and you also after, after you yourself lay hands on good men because the Holy Spirit is transferred in the laying out of hands.” — Jay (62:45–63:02)

6. Orthodox vs. Protestant (and Roman Catholic) Beliefs on the Trinity & Grace

Timestamps: 27:15–28:43

• Key differences:
  • Filioque clause and monarchical Trinitarianism: Orthodox see the Father alone as the source; Protestants (by inheritance from Augustine) generally accept the dual procession.
  • Grace: Protestants and Catholics teach created grace, vs. “uncreated” grace via the sacraments in Orthodoxy.
• Notable Quote:
  • “All Protestants default to believing in the filioque because they’re Augustinian out of the Reformation. So there you go. All of Protestantism canceled out right there.” — Jay (27:57)

7. Historicity of Jesus – Ancient Testimony vs. "Argument from Silence"

Timestamps: 73:44–78:53

• Skeptical callers question the historical evidence for Jesus.
• Jay notes there is more manuscript attestation for the New Testament than for Plato or Marcus Aurelius.
• Points to Josephus and the Talmud as extra-biblical evidence.
• Notable Quote:
  • “You discredit the New Testament because Jews wrote it? That’s a genetic fallacy. It’s a double standard, dude.” — Jay (78:17)

8. Other Notable Topics

Timestamps: 29:15–30:56, 71:09–71:40, 74:02–78:53

• The “Invisible Church” doctrine: Jay and participants argue from both OT and NT that God’s people have always been a visible body (53:00).
• Occasional forays into fringe topics: the role of Bitcoin and Jeffrey Epstein (32:07–36:19).
• Caller stories: firsthand anecdotes about sites like Epstein’s Zorro Ranch in New Mexico.
• Brief discussions on questions of Old Testament saints, Abraham’s bosom vs. paradise, theological distinctions between Catholics and Orthodox, and more.

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Memorable Quotes

• “Imagine a Muslim trying to have a moral one-up. Yep, what’s up?” — Jay (23:15)
• “If it's a penalty, then you can't do it, you dummy. So... Well, a penalty is a legal dissuader, it's not doing it.” — Orthodox Christian Debater (18:31)
• “If Allah is the greatest of deceivers, then their God is actually the devil, and they have no basis for this moral posture.” — Jay (20:39)
• “There's only Orthodox Christianity. That's the only one. Islam and Judaism are NOT Abrahamic religions.” — Jay (73:22)

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Considerations for Listeners

• The tone is highly polemical, with frequent insults and interruptions, especially during debates with Muslims and Protestants.
• The episode is best suited for listeners interested in apologetic sparring and confrontational theological debate, with a firm Orthodox Christian stance.
• Jay and his circle handle call-ins with impatience for what they see as weak or incoherent arguments, but with sporadic moments of in-depth explanation and references to Church history, fathers, councils, and patristic theology.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Start | End | |----------------------------------------------------|---------|---------| | Start of debates/Islamic dilemma intro | 08:21 | 09:30 | | Bible rape law debate | 09:30 | 19:56 | | Morality, concubines, Islamic law | 21:00 | 22:09 | | Trinity/Protestant-Catholic-Orthodox distinctions | 27:15 | 28:43 | | Papacy and interpretation issues | 30:32 | 31:48 | | Apostolic succession resources | 62:45 | 63:02 | | Historicity of Jesus – textual evidence | 73:44 | 78:53 |

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Further Resources Mentioned

• Perry Robinson’s YouTube talk on Apostolic Succession
• Alex Soren live stream on apostolic succession
• St. Maximus’ Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ (Orthodox perspective on redemption)
• Debates and lectures by Dr. Bo Branson (Orthodox Trinity)

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Conclusion

Jay Dyer’s episode delivers what fans expect: combative, border-pushing debate with unapologetic theological bulldozing. The “Islamic dilemma” emerges as the central apologetic argument, but the caller-driven format keeps the discussion fresh, touching on Protestant/Catholic/Orthodox differences, biblical morality, church authority, and spiritual history. Those looking for nuanced or charitable interfaith dialogue will NOT find it here, but for an unfiltered Orthodox apologetic throwdown, it’s quintessential Jay’sAnalysis.

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Transcript

[Ryan]

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[Orthodox Christian Debater]

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[Jay]

What's up man? Go ahead. So I don't think any of these Muslims are actually going to come argue, which is ridiculous because Muslims and Methodists today have been popping off. So obviously if they're not going to come back to debate, which I didn't think they would, then it's open for them. Hit request to speak. I'll bring you up. What's on your mind? Nobody, nobody has any questions, Comments? None of the Muslims, none of the Methodists would come and debate. What a bunch of freaking cowards, dude. Oh my gosh. I. I was looking forward to this too because we had so many people popping off, talking smack and none of them will actually come make their arguments. Ah, finally, here we go. I'm mute.

[Muslim Debater]

So was it you those keep yapping in my comments?

[Jay]

Yeah, with all your stuff, your stupid bad arguments.

[Muslim Debater]

Stupid bad arguments. What was the bad argument that I said?

[Jay]

Well, your. Your Quran says it's confirmed by the prior revelation. You said the prior revelation is all corrupt, so you disowned yourself.

[Muslim Debater]

Well, we're. What was the initial topic?

[Jay]

What does that have to do with this argument?

[Muslim Debater]

Yeah, because you're afraid. Because I provided you evidence.

[Questioner]

I'm afraid.

[Muslim Debater]

Sources. Does your cross nationalism and tribalism and then.

[Questioner]

No, I'm not.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

No, I'm not.

[Muslim Debater]

I didn't make any of that Bible where you're allowed to enslave women, you're allowed to rape women.

[Jay]

No, it doesn't say that.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

That never says rape in the text.

[Jay]

You're lying. It never says that. Where does it say rape in the text? I know, I know. Deuteronomy very well.

[Muslim Debater]

You sure? All right, so let's read it together.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

If I'm lying, where does it say rape in the text?

[Muslim Debater]

Yeah, it says if I'm reading it to you. If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father 50 shekels of silver.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Yeah, that's Allow rape, you idiot.

[Muslim Debater]

He must marry the young woman. Violated her. He can never.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Yeah, that's a penalty. That's a penalty. It's not allowing for rape. You have to pay the dowry. You have to pay the dowry.

[Muslim Debater]

So if I reap your daughter, would you be satisfied if I pay you 50 shekels? Be honest.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

That's not the law now. That's the law. Then. You said. Hold on. So you think that's. So you think that's corrupt?

[Muslim Debater]

I feel. I believe. This is disgusting. And it's very.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

So your Quran then. Your Quran.

[Muslim Debater]

So can you. Can you ask, is this morally correct?

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Your. Your Quran then, is confirmed by a corrupted text, correct?

[Muslim Debater]

Jay. Wait, is this.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

I answered your question. Is the Quran okay? Is it moral? Is the Quran confirmed by prior revelation?

[Muslim Debater]

Yeah, it confirms the initial confirmation of the Torah.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

It confirms the initial confirmation. That's pure gibberish. Does the Quran. Okay, so it's confirmed by a corrupted text?

[Muslim Debater]

I don't believe in Deuteronomy. No one, no Muslim, does.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

What's the prior revelation?

[Muslim Debater]

The prior revelation is the angel in the Torah. Are you able.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

This is the Torah, you idiot.

[Muslim Debater]

Yeah, I know this, but this is corrupted.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

And it's confirmed by a corrupted text, you idiot. Yeah, the Quran confirmed by a corrupted text. You just admitted that's corrupted.

[Muslim Debater]

Yeah, it is corrupted.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

So the Quran is confirmed by a corrupted text of the Torah.

[Muslim Debater]

Ibn Abbas tells us it's corrupt.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Is it confirmed by a corrupted text?

[Muslim Debater]

It confirms the initial revelation of the

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Torah, which is the Torah. Which is what? You're reading the Torah, dude.

[Muslim Debater]

You're manifesting because I provided, you idiot. There's rape in your Bible, bro.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

I don't know why you don't have an argument.

[Jay]

You disowned yourself.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

So he just admitted the Torah. He didn't realize he's reading the Torah, and the Torah for him is a corrupted text. The Quran is confirmed by corrupted text.

[Jay]

This is the. The stupidity of these people, by the way. It doesn't say you can rape people. It says that if there is a rape that was confirmed, you have to

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

pay the penalty of a dowry.

[Jay]

It's not saying you can rape people. All right, who's next? Since we had our low IQ muscle. Sog. What's up, Yo? Yeah, what's up? Listen, dude, you're gonna sit here with that argument and you're not even gonna listen to the fact that Quran also says the previous revelations were corrupted? We don't have that today.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

You don't understand. How dumb that is.

[Jay]

You don't understand how stupid this argument is.

[Commentator]

Yeah, you're a idiot.

[Jay]

I'll say.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Exactly.

[Jay]

No argument. Just calling me a fucking idiot. Because you can't actually argue the position. Because you're too stupid. You low IQ inbred idiots who can't reason through basic propositions here. Isaiah, what's up? See?

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

You see how these people act? Do you understand that it can't be confirmed if the previous thing is corrupted? How could it confirm if it's corrupted?

[Jay]

This is so stupid.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

I see.

[Jay]

What's up? On mute.

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[Jay]

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[Inquirer]

the question for this. For years, like, I read Jonathan Pajo's

[Jay]

brother's book, the Language of Creation, and

[Inquirer]

I just want to understand what the Church says about taking Genesis as literal.

[Jay]

What. What the verse says. What are you talking about?

[Inquirer]

Well, just in his brother's book, Matthew Pajo, he kind of just goes into the symbolism.

[Jay]

Okay, but Matthew Pazo is not orthodox. He's a schizophrenic guy who's kind of out there on the fringe. I'm not being.

[Inquirer]

Oh, I didn't. I didn't. Well, I didn't know.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

He's not actually. I'm not being mean.

[Inquirer]

No, I didn't. I'm glad you told me that. I think I. Thank God you told me that. Plus with Jonathan. But Jonathan Pajo takes Genesis as. As non literal.

[Jay]

That's fine. I disagree with that. But that's. That's his position.

[Inquirer]

So the Orthodox Church doesn't really have anything to say on that, or.

[Jay]

I would argue that it's an inconsistent position because the Six Ecumenical Council says that you cannot say that death existed prior to Adam's fall. So I think it's.

[Inquirer]

Oh, yeah. And they. They argue. They argue that. So that means that would extend to, like, the. The Christians. I believe in evolution.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

What?

[Caller from Nigeria]

Right, right.

[Jay]

But I don't think they're intentionally being heretics. But I think you appreciate your question. Nola. What's up?

[Caller from New Mexico]

Yeah.

[Muslim Debater]

Did you just. Can you hear me?

[Jay]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Muslim Debater]

Did you just say that you're allowed to rape as long as you pay a dowry to them. To the. To the father?

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Did I say you're allowed to rave?

[Jay]

Are you this stupid? Did I say that?

[Muslim Debater]

You just said that.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

I was just filthy.

[Muslim Debater]

The brother provided evidence and then you declined.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

I said it's a penalty under lawfare if you. If you engage in that action. The penalty is you have to pay the dowry and you are liable to marry the woman. So it's a penalty.

[Jay]

It's a legal penal sanction against it. It's not saying you can rape people, you idiot.

[Muslim Debater]

And what happens to the woman? Does she marry him? Yes, according to the. Oh, so you marry the rape the rapist if he.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

If. These are the laws of warfare which,

[Jay]

which negate the possibility of acting in a brutal way. So it's a. It's actually dissuading you from committing rape. It's not saying you can commit rape, you idiot.

[Muslim Debater]

Yeah, but it's a penalty.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Yeah, so thank you for admitting it's a penalty if I pay. You admitted it's a penalty, you idiot. Thank you. That's when I was trying to.

[Muslim Debater]

Penalty.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

So it's not saying you can do it.

[Muslim Debater]

Marry the rapist is crazy.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

You just admitted it's a penalty, you dummy. So that you're lying about what I said, it proves you're lying about what I said. About what I said. So you're. So, hold on. Is the Quran based on the Torah? Then is it confirmed by the Torah?

[Muslim Debater]

When you jump to the Quran,

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

you can't answer the dilemma, can you?

[Muslim Debater]

No, but I'm just saying there's many passages that says you could rape.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

No, it doesn't. Isaiah.

[Muslim Debater]

The book of Isaiah says it as well. Then you have the book of Zechariah.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Do it, you dummy. You just admitted as a penalty, so it's not saying you can do it.

[Muslim Debater]

The penalty doesn't make sense because you

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

marry the rapist, it's a penalty. Yes, it does. In the ancient world, if you violated,

[Muslim Debater]

would you allow your daughter to marry the rapist?

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Be honest. If in the ancient. If I raped her, would you allow her to marry me? No, it's not world. We don't live in the ancient world.

[Muslim Debater]

In the ancient world, that's a rap. I just need to pay you 50 shekels.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Dude, stop talking. It's a penalty. That means you can't do it. It's a. It's an act. It dissuades you from doing it. You know, a dowry, being honest. A dowry is what happens when he

[Muslim Debater]

eats God flesh and drink his blood. You become stupid.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

No, you're demonically possessed because you just.

[Muslim Debater]

It's Sunday. I know.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

You got flesh and drinking is admitted that you're a blasphemer. You just admitted that the Quran is confirmed by a corrupted text. So you just undid your whole brother.

[Muslim Debater]

You just said that you could rape as long as.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Dude, if it's a penalty, then you can't do it, you dummy. You said it's a penalty, but who did she marry? The girl.

[Muslim Debater]

The girl marries who?

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

The rapist.

[Muslim Debater]

That's crazy, bro.

[Inquirer]

I know.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

It's not crazy. It's the ancient world, dummy. And you just admitted that you lied because you said. I said you could do it, but then you said it's a penalty. Well, a penalty is a legal dissuader. It's not doing it. It's not saying you can do it, you idiot. These are the stupidest people on the planet. In the ancient world, if you violated a woman, she was no longer able to be married off, and thus you had to pay a massive amount of money. A dowry is not a small amount of money. So this is a penalty that dissuades you from doing it in a world that was brutal.

[Jay]

Okay?

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Ancient brutality. And these are mitigating factors in the

[Jay]

ancient world against the brutality of the pagan world. So again, these people are lying and stupid because their own tax that they are.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Every time they say that this is all corrupted texts, they're undoing the Quran because the Quran says it's confirmed by the Torah. So I wish one of the Muslims

[Jay]

who could actually make the argument and follow through.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Do you understand how stupid that was? You said you could rape. No, if it's a penalty, it's dissuaded you from doing it. The penalty is not a light penalty, it's a severe penalty. A dowry was like, I forget the exact percentage, but it was like multiple

[Jay]

years of income or at least a year's income, something like that.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

So no, that's a dissuader.

[Jay]

It's not saying you can do it, you idiot.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

And by the way, his whole religion

[Jay]

is based on slavery. What's he talking about? So it's open for him to question. Speak. Want to come up, bring you up all these calls on me. Hit request to speak. I'll bring you up. We've already had two Muslims refute themselves out of their own mouths and you notice that neither of Them wants to talk about the.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

By the way, they want to get talked about morals. Allah is multiple times in the Quran

[Jay]

said to be the greatest of deceivers.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

So wait a minute. If Allah is the greatest of deceivers,

[Jay]

then their God is actually the. The devil, and they have no basis for this moral posture.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

If you come up and talk about

[Jay]

theistic evolution, I'm done. I'm not talking with you about that. I'm tired of talking about that.

[Commentator]

Hey, Jay, can I know if in the Quran you could basically have as many sex concubines as your right hand possesses? Isn't that literally in the Quran?

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

I don't know where they.

[Jay]

I mean, because they. Then they say nowadays it's four. So I have no idea where the different legal fic rulings come from. It's all over the place. I mean, they've got, you know, Arab sheiks with countless wives and concubines, but now there's only four. So who knows?

[Commentator]

Because based on what I know is that, yeah, legally they could have four wives, but then they could have endless byproduct of war, sex concubines.

[Jay]

Well, that's what Deuteronomy is actually trying to mitigate, is that tendency. So the laws are mitigating the thing that you're talking about. And it's not saying that you can rape people, it's saying that you will pay heavy fines if you engage in that activity.

[Commentator]

Exactly. And from a Islamic perspective, they have a carte blanche to do the thing. They're frowning.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Yeah. So they're saying.

[Jay]

Yeah, they're saying it's morally reprehensible when Allah is the greatest of deceivers and allows them to have. Everything they're saying is reprehensible. Good point.

[Commentator]

It's crazy, man. Anyway, that's all I want to say.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Great point.

[Jay]

Appreciate that. MKG guys, hit request to speak. You're welcome to come up if you disagree. I want one of the Muslim sections. You notice we've never had a Muslim attempt to address, except for Dr. Khalil's, like the only one, the one with a PhD actually attempt to address the Islamic dilemma. Because every time they argue that the Torah is corrupt, they turn around and say that the Quran is confirmed by the Torah, which is so stupid. Oh, you mean it's confirmed by the thing that you just says corrupt? And then they'll say, yes, but not all the Torah. Oh, well, then what's the. How do we know what the. The correct Torah is? But it's what the Quran Says good job. That's the thing in question. So hit request to speak. I'll bring you up. I love the low IQ muscles. They're some of the funnest people to debate. By the way, this is good also because it's going to be clipped. I hope the clippers have fun with this one and, and pay attention and, and show the part where they're dishonest. If you guys clip this, whether JDA or Dire Central or whoever Manessius, whoever clips, because both of those guys literally contradicted themselves. He says the clip Quran is confirmed by the Torah. And then he says the Torah is corrupt. So. And then the other guy says, you literally say that you can rape. You're supposed to rape. And then he says, yeah, you're saying it's a penalty. Well, if it's a penalty, then it's a dissuader, dummy. So who's up next? Hit request to speak. We don't have to talk about Islam if you. I want to defend Protestantism if those idiot Methodists are here. If you want to come to Senate defend your stupid faking gay Methodist sect, feel free to come make your arguments. I don't think they're going to come. The people just love to talk smack online and they won't come to bait. And then when they come to bait, they say the dumbest crap ever. They don't know how to debate and they're debating with Adiq in red mindset. Literally. Imagine a Muslim trying to have a moral one up. Yep, what's up?

[Muslim Debater]

Hello.

[Ryan]

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[Orthodox Christian Debater]

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[Jay]

Yep, Church history.

[Inquirer]

But I would consider myself solo scriptura because it seems like, like your side will say or captain, you're not.

[Jay]

You're not super. Understood.

[Inquirer]

Yeah, I will say that for sure.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

But.

[Inquirer]

But I'm just saying that, okay, your side seems like they will say that they depend on divine revelation in the end. And for me, I depend on the Holy Spirit. So I just kind of don't see the Big distinction there.

[Jay]

Okay, well, how do we know? Given that every sect out there claims they're led by the Holy Spirit, how would we decide between all the different claims of who's left of the Spirit? I don't.

[Inquirer]

Yeah, but that. But I feel like we're in the same position. If you say it's divine revelation, I'm

[Jay]

asking you, since that exists, everybody having different claims of being led by the Spirit, what's the public objective thing that we could appeal to that would decide between all these different groups? You tell me.

[Inquirer]

The public object. Oh, I see. I get what you're saying. You're saying, since we can appeal to the church,

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

do you recognize that there are.

[Jay]

Every sect out there says they're led by the Holy Spirit, right?

[Inquirer]

No, and I. And I think it's a problem, too. I understand it's a problem. That's why you got all these Mormons. And.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Okay, so what would be the thing

[Jay]

that is the arbiter between all these different groups?

[Inquirer]

It would. It would have to be a church.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

It really would.

[Jay]

So. Well, good news. Turns out there's a church that has taught the same thing from the first thousand years to. To. To now.

[Inquirer]

Okay, so I get what you're saying.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

So that's the way you're saying. Because everybody's going to say every heretic

[Jay]

says they're led by the Holy Spirit. All of them. Okay, well, then we're going to need some objective arbiter that is some way. Well, turns out we can go find out what the Church of the first thousand years taught. By the way, John, you missed the puzzle. That was hilarious. To retard Muslims. Thomas, what's up?

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Sorry. So I'm curious as to the distinction in the Trinity when it comes to Orthodox versus Protestantism.

[Jay]

Okay. I mean, there's a lot of distinctions in the Trinity. So what do you mean?

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

I guess then I need to come back with a better question.

[Jay]

Well, no, it's a fine question, but what exactly I mean, are you talking about? The filioque? The essence, center, distinction, nature, person, eternal generation? What are you talking about?

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

I don't know. I'm inquiring Orthodoxy, and I was raised Protestant, so I'm just trying to figure out at least key distinctions that would absolutely rule one out over the other.

[Jay]

Okay, well, the Second Ecumenical Council teaches that the Father is the sole fount. Cause Arche. That means that we believe in monarchical trinitarianism. And that means that his unique property of being the fount, the cause and the source, cannot be shared. By another person, like the Son, because that would be to give away what's called his hypothetical property or his unique identifier. So that right there disqualifies all Protestantism, because all Protestants default to believing in the filioque because they're Augustinian out of the Reformation. So there you go. All of Protestantism canceled out right there. How about another one? All Protestantism is canceled out because they teach a created grace, just like the Roman Catholic Church. And the Orthodox teaching is that we participate in the uncreated grace through the sacraments.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Okay, that's a good place to start.

[Muslim Debater]

Thank you.

[Jay]

Most Protestants, by the way, teach classical Protestants teach a form of equalitarian trinitarian relations or equalitarianism in the Trinity, which is not the traditional view, because that, again, compromises the Father as the sole found source cause Narca. And that is 100, clear as day, the Cappadocian teaching. And that's the teaching of the second Ecumenical Council. So if you all want to be Protestants and reject the second Medical Council, that's up to you.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Who's next? Dialogue.

[Jay]

Every question, speak, I'll bring you up. Topics are anything to do with Islam, anything to do with the page Papacy, anything to do with Protestantism, anything to do with Evangelicalism. If you have other questions, feel free. I know, Floridian, I think you had some things you wanted to try to talk about last night, but I couldn't get to you or we couldn't get a good connection. So, Floridian, if you'd like to hop up, feel free. It's also open to any other topics. Geopolitics, conspiracy history, cults, Gnosticism, Black Hebrew, Israelites, Hebrew roots, Zionism, Messianic Judaism. Many of these topics are open, fair game. Today, just in request to speak, and I'll bring you up, by the way, I just passed White Sands, N.M. out here in the middle of nowhere, it's pretty wild. People bring their snowboards and they sled down the dunes, which I did not know. Retro. What's up, man? Dude, those two first Muslims told. I love that. Because it only took like literally three minutes for them to contradict each other. What's up, Retro?

[Muslim Debater]

Hey, I've been watching videos for a while and I just had a question out of curiosity. You've mentioned that the papacy doesn't solve the issue of solo scriptura because it just moves the problem back a step because now you have to interpret all the writings of popes and whatnot. How would that be different from, say, the writings of the church fathers? And the councils and interpreting those.

[Jay]

It's not different. That's the point. The point is that everybody's in the same boat. And so when a Roman Catholic tries to say that the papacy will give you individual certitude about the doctrines, that's the point, is that it doesn't just moves the Trump back a step. So the point is that we're all in the same boat. So we're not going to solve it by just saying, well, that guy solves it, or this thing solves it. The thing that solves it is ultimately, at the end of the day, going to be the Holy Spirit. And everybody actually says that. Even Roman Catholics admit that individual Roman Catholics are guided by the wisdom and enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. So if that's the admission that they have as well, then the question isn't whether the papacy can give you certitude. The question is which church is the same structure and functionality of the first millennium church.

[Muslim Debater]

Perfect. That makes sense. Thank you.

[Jay]

That's a great question. That one comes up a lot, so I appreciate that. It's always worth. Robert Castle. Go ahead. Robert.

[Caller from New Mexico]

Hey, can you hear me?

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Yes, sir.

[Caller from New Mexico]

Hey, so you said. You said you're driving through the middle of nowhere in New Mexico. I had a funny anecdote. I'm actually from the middle of nowhere in New Mexico, and I grew up about 20 minutes away from Zorro Ranch, and my. My buddy in Cub Scouts when I was a kid, his dad was actually the ranch manager. And so I went to Zorro Ranch when I was like, 13 years old.

[Jay]

Oh, wow. And what, was it open to the public? What was it at that time?

[Caller from New Mexico]

No, it was. It was definitely not open. That was. What was weird about the experience was, I mean, I didn't know anything about Epstein at the time. I was a kid, you know, but we went out there and it's just like out in the middle of the desert in the Galisteo Basin, just like off of Highway 41. And the entrance had these, like, giant rocks at the front. And, you know, it had this, like, super long driveway. But we went there and I just, like, spent the night with my friend, just one night. And we pulled up and it was like this fake. It was like a movie set. Like, all this new construction, and the buildings were painted, like, different primary colors, you know, And I remember even being like 12, 13 years old, looking around and. And being like, what the fuck is. Like, what is this place? Like, it's like a fake. It's like a fake place. But then it Wasn't like, it was like seven years later I found out all this stuff about where I actually was. But anyway, that's just a funny story, but I, I just, I was wondering if you had seen some of the stuff Mark Goodwin was talking about with Bitcoin because he's, he's interesting in that he, he's recognizing a lot of the connections with, you know, Epstein and the teal, you know, the Bitcoin mafia and all that but, or the PayPal mafia rather. But he's not Blackpooled about it or at least he seems optimistic in a sense. I was curious what you thought about what he had been.

[Jay]

I mean Jeffrey put money into everything. He was interested in email, he was interested in stocks. So does that mean that, oh, I can't be involved in email because Jeffrey Epstein was involved in it. So email is an Epstein operation? I mean that's,

[Caller from New Mexico]

Yeah, I mean he doesn't seem to be, he doesn't seem to be saying that you, that people shouldn't be involved. I, I've.

[Jay]

And that's not, I don't understand what you mean Blackfield, about what I mean again, investing through money at everything. It makes sense that he would throw money at every emerging tech, which is what he did. Biotech, computers, AI, bitcoin, crypto. So like it's just such a low tier argument that oh, he had money in Bitcoin, therefore Bitcoin is an Epstein operation.

[Caller from New Mexico]

Well, he doesn't. That's why I was asking if you had seen what Mark Goodwin said because

[Jay]

he doesn't seem to, I don't know who that is.

[Caller from New Mexico]

He's a, he's a former editor of Bitcoin magazine and he's a, he, he has articles released on Unlimited Hangout, which is Whitney Webb's website.

[Jay]

But okay, but Whitney Webb and I like Whitney Webb generally. But also if you watch Bitcoin mechanics, reputation of Whitney Webb, he shows that she has no idea about the technology. And so Whitney's whole thing is just like, well, BlackRock's buying Bitcoin. The bitcoin's now compromised. But the problem is that you can't stop, it's like you can't stop people from buying these things. That's like saying that I'm not gonna buy gold because the Rothschilds own gold. Well yeah, but like that's, there's no way around that. Like you can't. If, if it's in the open market you're not going to be able to stop people from buying things. But just because the Rothschilds own gold. It doesn't mean that, oh well, I guess I'm gonna hold dollars because the Rothschild's own gold. It's just, it's all this stuff is super, just low tier dumb arguments. I'm not saying you, but I'm saying the people that will say, I mean I'm not, I like bitcoin over gold but I'm saying gold is better than Fiat. But imagine saying, well I'm not going to buy Fiat because the Rothschilds own Fiat. The Queen of England has a bunch of gold. So that's evil currency that it's just dumb. MKG what's up man?

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[Commentator]

AJ Another thing I was thinking regarding the Muslim very rigid, simplistic, myopic view they seem to have and just looking at Islamic history, they seem to have this very abominable version of Symphonia. They don't have this crime sin distinction, at least not in the way Christianity does. So everything is broad brushed, everything is relative. Things are not categorically placed in the way Christianity places, you know, civic rights, spiritual rights. So apostasy, for example, like all the Muslim clerics would still have to hold that if in an Islamic state a Muslim born person converts to Christianity, if the state is Muslim, they should execute that person. And some people say, oh, but in the Christian empire there were also apostasy, you know, death sentences, capital punishments. But it was never, it was very, it was more a wartime strategy. Even in Byzantium it had that civic spiritual distinction. The Orthodox church never would subscribe, or at least correct me if I'm wrong, would say that someone who apostatizes from Christianity ought to be punished capitally. That person should be turned to repentance. Correct me if I'm wrong if that's not true.

[Jay]

Well, there's a lot of different legislations for different situations. So it more so depends on like. No, if you wanted to leave the Christian faith, one is free to do that. You can't. Like the church doesn't. I mean you might get excommunicated more. So what becomes a civil penalty is when you become a civil disturbance. And so if you begin to, for example, teach some new heretical sections. And people have to understand that because religion was an intimate part of the world in the ancient world, in the medieval world, it was also thus a revolutionary force if you were a sectarian. And so one of the reasons that the princes had laws against these kinds of heretical sects is that it would, it could create a social revolution, as actually many of the medieval cults and sects did. For example, in France, the Cathari ended up becoming a political social movement that took over several areas of France. They held like four or five different castles and strongholds. And this is why the, the princes were trying to stamp it out ahead of time was because they understood that this could become a, it could undo, you know, the different kingdoms. So that's why there are at times legal civil penalties for heresy. And I think that makes, actually, makes perfect sense.

[Commentator]

Exactly. And that's a proper use of Symphonia. But they don't have that like it's so murderous.

[Jay]

Yeah, they don't have those distinctions. They think of it like God wants you to just die right now.

[Commentator]

Yeah, it's there, there's no semblance of, you know, distinction of crime versus sin. You know, a crime is a sin, but a sin is not a crime. And I think Joel Webbin made a good point of that on one of his podcast episodes. But it's just, it's really fascinating that from, from my point, vantage point, when I see even from the laity of the Muslims, the, the way they interact with religious and the theological issues, it's very much like cnn, Fox News kind of slogans. What are the slogans? What, what are the emotional. Emotionally?

[Jay]

Yeah, because it's. Yeah, because most of them are Adiq people and it's a inbred religion. Literally. I mean, I'm not being mean. That's just the facts. So what do you expect? I mean, the whole religion is the mindset of an Arab slave owner, master slave. I mean, it's like you're all a slave. So of course they're going to believe that their deity is a, an Arab slave owner. I mean, that's essentially what the deity is. So, yeah, it's, it's the perfect religion for low IQ desert dwelling people who think that Satan dwells in a rock wall that you can throw rocks at. I mean, it's. Dude, they believe that the devil farts. I mean, like, it's just crazy. I mean, people want to have this like really deep mystical meaning. It's a religion, man. It's a dumb cult. And cults always have these really dumb position.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Who's next?

[Jay]

Open forum. We'll keep going as Long as we have the Internet. This is a really fascinating drive out in the middle of nowhere in New Mexico. We just saw a big. I guess it looks like a Catholic shrine. I'm not sure what it was.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Who's next to speak?

[Jay]

Anything to do with Protestantism, Islam, church history, papacy, evangelicalism, cults, Hebrew, Israelites, Hebrew roots Judaism. Sam. Go to Sam and then to Nico. Yeah, I got a different. Okay. A guy a few minutes ago asked about. Yeah, can you hear me? One at a time, Samuel. Then Nico. Yeah. Okay. Got a few minutes ago, asked about the difference between trinitarian or Protestant trinitarianism versus orthodox trinitarianism, and you said they have, like, a kind of an equality type of, like, I don't know if

[Caller]

that's who gets described. The kind of co.

[Jay]

Equal. Co. Eternal type.

[Caller]

I guess, like, shorthand of it versus you said orthodox is minor,

[Jay]

like king. Monarchical Trinitarianism. Thank you. So how. How does. How does. How do those differ specifically? And how does that avoid any issue of, like, one being, like, subservient of the other in the godhead? So I'm going to go tell you to go watch all the lectures and interviews that we don't. Dr. Bo Branson, because we cover that in depth, and I'm not going to repeat 20 hours of podcasting lectures. Right here. Nico, what's up?

[Caller]

Hey, Jay, I wanted to ask something.

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[Caller]

You know, in Islam. Can you hear me?

[Jay]

Yes.

[Caller]

So in Islam, they promise to believers that once you go to heaven, if you make it to heaven, your promise, for example, for men, your promise, you know, like concubines and women and eternal. You know, like, it's like a hedonistic paradise.

[Jay]

The humans, they're like 70ft tall. Giant women. It's weird. What?

[Caller]

Yes. So how. How can a person be moral if. If your highest point in life is to make it to a hedonistic heaven, how can you be moral and, you know, like, be.

[Jay]

Well, I mean, they're just. Yeah, I get it. Right, but they're just gonna say, moral is whatever. All I wills, and. Which I agree is inconsistent, but. Olympos. What's up, man?

[Caller from New Mexico]

Hey, Jay, I wanted to ask you. In Greek, the word for heaven is Uranus and paradise is paradiso. Is there a difference between those two?

[Jay]

Is. Is paradise like a state and heaven

[Caller]

is like a sort of a place?

[Jay]

Well, I mean, I think in Orthodox theology, paradise is Eden. That's where Adam and Eve were. It's where Enoch and Elijah were translated or translated to. And so it's different than having proper, which is the third heavens, which is God's throne. So there is a distinction there.

[Caller]

Okay, perfect.

[Caller from New Mexico]

Thank you.

[Jay]

Let's see who's next. It's me, Maximus. What's up?

[Caller from Nigeria]

Can you hear me?

[Questioner]

Yeah.

[Caller from Nigeria]

So I have a question because the bishop in Poland make a statement that we should go to synagogue and knowing the anniversary of the Pope JP2 going there. So question. Should we go and pray in synagogue?

[Jay]

No. The ancient canons forbidden praying in synagogue, saying the Orthodox bishop in Poland said to go to the synagogue.

[Caller from Nigeria]

Yeah. Like to visit.

[Jay]

Oh, that's sad. That's terrible. No, that's ridiculous. Robert, what's up? Robert? Unmute.

[Caller]

Hello. Hello. Hello. I just wanted to follow up on what the previous caller was asking about Heaven and Eden. Just contrasting.

[Muslim Debater]

What.

[Caller]

What's the orthodox theological view of Abraham's bosom when compared to Eden? Because I'm Roman Catholic.

[Jay]

Abraham's bosom?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Abraham's bosom was a place in Hades. So it's where the righteous, the Old Testament resided prior. Prior to Christ harrowing Hades.

[Caller]

So with that is. Is that where infants went historically before Christ in the Orthodox view?

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Possibly.

[Jay]

There is some speculation, but I don't know that we have a hard. Okay, like we. We know for sure position.

[Caller]

Okay. And then. So for us, I was trying to read more about the original sin versus ancestral sin distinction in the Orthodox versus the Catholic view. So why is it in the Orthodox view that people went to Abraham's bosom? Because people didn't triumph over. Because Christ hadn't triumphed over death yet, in the Orthodox view, is that why people went to Abraham's bosom?

[Jay]

Yes. Correct.

[Caller]

Okay. So for us, Enoch and Elias, we don't have a position on whether they went to Eden or heaven or to Abraham's bosom.

[Caller from Nigeria]

What's.

[Caller]

Where does that come from in the Orthodox view? Where can I read about that? That Enoch and Elias went to Eden

[Jay]

because they haven't died yet. So they were translated to paradise and they've not died yet. So they wouldn't be in heaven, they would be in paradise.

[Caller]

So then.

[Jay]

And that's why we would say that like in the Book of Revelation, it appears that they do come back to be martyred.

[Caller]

And then how does that Figure with Moses. Like, how does that work with Moses and Elias coming back at the tr. And Elias coming back at the transfiguration. So does Moses get taken from Abraham's bosom and then Elias from Eden for the transfigurations?

[Jay]

Possibly.

[Caller]

Yeah, possibly. Okay. Okay.

[Jay]

Well, hold on. So what is that? Because I'm talking about the Book of Revelation where it's.

[Caller from New Mexico]

It's.

[Jay]

Isn't it Enoch and Elijah.

[Caller]

Yeah, you're right about Revelation.

[Jay]

Yeah, it's Enoch and Elijah.

[Caller]

That's right.

[Jay]

And that's because. That's because they're the only two people who didn't undergo death. But Moses did undergo death. And so Moses will be resurrected like everybody else. The resurrection.

[Caller]

Yeah, because it always was sort of interesting because in the transfiguration in the Gospels, Moses is there. But I was trying to figure out where he's actually where God's bringing him from in the Gospels when there's this.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

I think.

[Jay]

I think that Moses. Right. So they're in Hades, in the. In the realm of the righteous.

[Caller]

Right.

[Jay]

Abraham's bosom.

[Caller]

Yep. Sorry, you're cutting out. Thank you. Yes. So if anything else. So then Abraham's. Yes, sorry. And then Abraham's bosom for the Orthodox is empty at the moment. I think it's the same for Catholics as well.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Yeah.

[Jay]

You're supposed to believe in the, you know, descent into Hades. Although in Roman Catholic theology, in my estimation, it's really unclear what the point of that is. Or in other words, it doesn't have much significance in Catholic theology like it does in Orthodox.

[Caller]

Why is that? Why. Why do you say? Because I've heard about.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Because Eastern theology.

[Jay]

Because Eastern theology stress and emphasized the cosmic scope of Christ's redemption after Saint Maximus and the fact that all of reality is going to be transfigured. And after the Middle Ages in the Latin west, after Aquinas and Anselm and Augustine, Latin theology does not hold to any significance for the universe, for Christ, assuming universal human nature.

[Caller]

Okay, and is there anywhere I can read about that, that comparison? I don't want to waste your time. Where can I read about that, that comparison?

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

I wrote an essay.

[Jay]

I wrote an. I wrote an essay on that. But you could read just the cosmic. Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ by Saint Maximus.

[Caller]

Okay, thank you very much. Yeah, that was.

[Jay]

Yeah, those are great questions. I appreciate that. We haven't delved into that topic in a long time. So I'm in the. I didn't realize it's mountainous up here in northern New Mexico, so it's actually a totally different climate than where I was. So I don't know how long the cell connection will last here. But feel free, we'll try to continue as long as we can. Shout out to John. What's up John in the chat. Shout out to slow boy. Shout out to J. Dyer archive. Shout out to Nevsky. All our buddies here in the chat. Props to all you guys that are churning out the clips. Really appreciate that they request to speak. I'll bring you up while we still have a little bit of a signal. I doubt it will last much longer. I just passed Alamogordo and White Sands Air Force Base. So I did get MK Ultra reprogrammed by the aliens at Roswell. We were only about an hour from Roswell and they have programmed me. I'm a. A chosen pleadian and the blue avians are the real good aliens and the chicken headed aliens are the bad guys. What's up Aiden.

[Questioner]

Question to do with like Old Testament relations? I guess in a way. So this is like a Protestant hypothetical question. Like they have their invisible church doctrine stuff for example they can make. What if they made an argument of in the Old Testament like non descendants of Abraham being faithful and trying to use that to justify the invisible church doctrine. How would you attack that argument?

[Jay]

I'm confused. How is this at all. What is this supposed to prove? Invisible?

[Questioner]

Yeah, I'm just thinking of a hypothetical of a Protestant trying to justify the invisible church based off of in the Old Testament there being.

[Jay]

Okay, but Hebrews 11. Hebrews 11 says they're part of the same mystical body as we are. So I would actually prove our position, not the invisible church. I mean in other words the church has always been visible.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Okay.

[Jay]

And just because the church of the Old Testament and by the way it's called the Ecclesia of the Old Testament, the book of Hebrews, the church in the wilderness. Just because it had gentile converts. I mean Abraham was a gentile convert, so it's always been gentle converts. Yeah, just because it allowed that. I mean how would that prove Invisible church that has nothing to do with invisible church because it's still a visible society of people with true and un and false believers within it. Just like it is.

[Questioner]

All right, thank you Jay, I appreciate it. I'm. I'm just used to very low tier arguments of like people.

[Jay]

Right, right.

[Questioner]

Like call satanic worshippers. Yeah, appreciate it. Keep it up.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Yeah, I just, I think, I think

[Jay]

I get where you're. Where they're going with that but actually it undermines the argument because.

[Questioner]

Yeah, that's why I thought even.

[Jay]

Even in the Old Testament, it's still a single visible society.

[Questioner]

Yeah.

[Jay]

It's not a thousand different visible. There's not a thousand different Israels. Right.

[Questioner]

Yeah. I was thinking off the original basis of Job, but Job was a descendant from. I can't. I'm horrible at pronouncing. But he was.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Yeah, but even it.

[Jay]

But so like in. In Exodus, it says that many of the Egyptians had converted and left with the Israelites. So those are all Israelites as well. They're converts. So the Old Testament religion did accept converts.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

But that.

[Jay]

How would that prove an invisible church?

[Questioner]

I guess what the. What they would typically say is, oh, this is an example of you don't have to be part of the visible body or something like that. You don't have to.

[Jay]

But they were part of the way. They were part of it. They were, though. But they were. Yeah.

[Questioner]

So I'm just thinking of what loads here, type of response.

[Jay]

It says that they left Egypt with the Israelites. So they were part of it.

[Questioner]

All right. Thank you, Jay. I appreciate it, man.

[Jay]

No, it's a great question. I'm trying to think of other. I mean, Job. There's some scholars debate whether Job was actually a Jewish guy or a gentile guy. I mean, again, either way, it doesn't really matter because Paul argues that it was always the case that the only people who are true Israelites are the ones who love God from their heart. And that's whether you're Noah or Adam or Abraham or Moses or anybody. Today, that's the only people who have ever been true Israelites. That's Paul's whole entire argumentation.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

I. I guess,

[Jay]

Yeah, I try to. I mean, the Old Testament was a visible society of a mixed mind, multitude of believers and unbelievers. And so that would actually, again, undermine an attempt at an invisible church doctrine. Because the whole invisible church doctrine came about because the Protestant reformers were trying to figure out, well, how can we have true believers amongst divided, different sects and groups? And that's where you get invisible church. So really undercuts it if they try to go to the Old Testament. So, Sage, what's up, dude?

[Muslim Debater]

Good question.

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[Muslim Debater]

What is your opinion on the Genesis Gap theory real quick.

[Jay]

I mean, I tend to believe in young earth, so what do you mean? Do you call it the day age theory? Are you talking about the genealogy?

[Muslim Debater]

The genealogy or in general, what is Eastern Orthodox view of the Genesis gap?

[Jay]

Well, I mean, a lot of modern Orthodox believe in theistic evolution. I don't. And the Byzantine calendar supports my view, so the traditional Orthodox.

[Muslim Debater]

All right, cool. Thank you for your time.

[Jay]

Yes, it's funny too. Jim Bob's doing really good debating all these evolutionists because he's figured out like the key leaps and bounds and non sequiturs that all the evolution components make. He's getting really good at just asking them all these basic questions that they can't make sense of because they don't even realize that they have this like, mystical, magical worldview that they think is rational and scientific. And it's like, okay, fine, maybe. Okay, fine, maybe you've got, you know, maybe you've got the goods. If you do, then you should be able to answer some of these basic questions about the magical, mystical, quantum foam elements of evolution. And they never can. They just melt down and lose their minds. And to me, it's like, like how these people are so dogmatic and so certain. Why are they have such a hard time answering, like, basic questions? Okay, here we go. Muslims again. What's up, dude? I'm. Go ahead. Are you gonna say something? Muslim dude? What's up? Are you gonna talk or not? Dude on.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

That's true, that's true. Jim Bob's been killing it with these evolution guys.

[Jay]

Are you Muslim or Orthodox?

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

I'm Orthodox. I am. I'm not a Muslim, but.

[Jay]

Oh, I thought you're Muslim. I could. I could barely.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Oh, no, no, that's. Oh, yeah, yeah. Congratulations on your. On your generational run. You've been killing it.

[Jay]

Thanks, dude.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Yeah, this Apollo guy, real quick. Oh, I am. I am sorry about that. Yeah, I. I met a Muslim, a Shia Muslim. What is. What is going on? I'm hearing myself twice.

[Jay]

I don't know. Apollo, the. The guy that entered. The evangelical guy that interviewed it.

[Caller from Nigeria]

Who are you talking.

[Jay]

I think we. He had a bad connection. He dropped off. I don't know which Apollo guy he's talking about. What's up, man? Sage, if you can connect. Weird. We're up here in the middle of nowhere. I have like full bars, which I did not expect up here Northern Mexico, but. Sage, are you there? Connect. All right, it's open for him. We're gonna go to some people that we haven't Gone to yet. If you've not come up, you have a question, a challenge comment, a debate. You disagree, you go to the headline Debating Protestantism, Islam, Papism, Church history, cults, sex, Gnosticism, Libertarianism, Feminism, Zionism, Hebrew roots, black Hebrew, Israelites. Anybody who has any questions related to stop. But you're welcome to come up. You don't have to debate. You're welcome to if you want to. Who is next? Come on now. We're going until my Internet cell service runs out here. Hit request to speak. You go to the head of the line. Come on now. I know somebody's got something. We got 160 people. Aiden, what's up? Aiden, unmute. And then we go to Alexander. Go ahead. Yeah, so I was having a discussion with one of my friends and we got into the topic of like church structure and like how the church like formed and like over time. And so we kind of pretty much the conversation came boiling down to at like nicaea1 he was like contending that the church fundamentally like changed in structure. And so I was like wondering like how would you or like what books would you recommend to like read up on that and like what would it have to. I mean so go find Perry Robinson's talk on YouTube on apostolic succession and he shows that the New Testament itself teaches absolute succession. Look at the way Paul speaks to Timothy. In the letters to Timothy he says I laid hands on you Timothy. I appointed you at Ephesus. No one else is appointed. And you also after, after you yourself lay hands on good men because the Holy Spirit is transferred in the laying out of hands. And the Apostolic fathers also teach the exact same doctrine of apostolic succession. Also Alex Soren did a recent two hour live stream on apostolic succession as well. So I would say those are some of the best resources right there. Alexander, what's up dude? Unmute Alexander. Then we'll go to Jacob.

[Caller from Nigeria]

Hi, good evening. Can you hear me?

[Jay]

Yes, I can hear you. Go ahead.

[Caller from Nigeria]

All right. Yeah, I'm speaking from Nigeria. It's even over here and just came across all these patients I had to join in like the topic being discussed. Religion is quite I guess most of the topic been talked about around these centers majorly around religion and the likes and religions.

[Jay]

It's hard to understand you. What's your question?

[Caller from Nigeria]

Yeah, is different from. Is more. Hello?

[Jay]

I can't understand what you're saying man. I'm sorry Jacob, what's up. Jacob on you. And then we'll go to Drew.

[Caller]

Hello.

[Jay]

Yeah, what's up dog?

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

So Sorry if you get this question

[Jay]

a lot, but I'm a Baptist who's looking into Orthodoxy.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

And when the Bible talks about us

[Jay]

being adopted is sons of God and like, you know, the Holy Spirit being a seal, that sounds like very like permanent language that like, you can't lose. So like, how does Orthodox. Like, how do Eastern. Well, I mean, the very, the very language that you used in Hebrews 6 says if you've tasted the heavenly gift and partakers of the Holy Spirit, if you. If you turn away, there's no salvation for you. So the very language and sacramental graces that you mentioned are mentioned in Hebrews 6. Okay, I see. That makes sense. All right, thank you. No, it's a great question. I mean, yeah, you know, he who perseveres to the end will be safe. Jacob, what's up? Unmute, man. Jacob, unmute. Jacob, I'm here. Go ahead. Sorry, I lost you there for a second. Tariq. I mean, Tariq, I'm you.

[Caller from Nigeria]

Yeah. Heidi, I just wanted to say from everything so far, like, from what I've heard from you guys, it looks like the Americans are quite hell bent upon trying to prove Islam wrong and something fake was.

[Jay]

Yeah, yeah. That has nothing to do with America. It has to do with orthodox Christianity.

[Caller from Nigeria]

Well, I take that you've got an American accent, so I take you have

[Jay]

some sort of a. Yeah, but what does that have to do with the arguments against Islam that we made earlier?

[Caller from Nigeria]

Yeah, no, because obviously the title subject here is Protestantism, Islam and Pat.

[Jay]

Well, what does America argument.

[Caller from Nigeria]

No, no, no, I'm just presuming on that part. You know, just instead of actually just, you know, taking on board that, you know, you've got a bi. You've got a Bible out there, basically, regardless of which one, it's an edited book, you've got things which are wrong. And what's come to actually clarify what is wrong in there? Yeah, hold on now.

[Jay]

No, it doesn't. Right.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

How.

[Jay]

How does the Quran. How does the Quran say that prior revelation confirms the Quran if the prior revelation is corrupted?

[Caller from Nigeria]

Yeah, I'll explain this to you. So basically in the Quran is actually, it verifies that even though that the. The Jews and the Romans put Jesus on the cross.

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[Caller from Nigeria]

CHUMBA CASINO but they did not crucify him. But it was made to appear as such. So before this, what? The Christians were made.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Now we. We know you're.

[Caller from Nigeria]

So, basically, before this,

[Jay]

Answer the objection.

[Caller from Nigeria]

Yeah, so. Sorry, you're breaking up. I barely hear. What you're saying.

[Jay]

Is corrupted.

[Caller from Nigeria]

Yeah, just say that once again, because I. I never heard what you said completely.

[Jay]

Yeah. The Quran says in multiple verses, that prior revelation and the Torah confirm the teaching of the Quran. How is that the case if the prior revelation is corrupted?

[Caller from Nigeria]

Because what that. What the same Quran actually teaches that it's not. It's. It's not corrupted. Like complete corporation. But this is.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

How can it confirm it if it's corrupted?

[Jay]

So if it's half corrupted, how could it confirm it? How do we know what's corrupt and not corrupt?

[Caller from Nigeria]

Well, how it confirms it? Because whatever it says.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Oh, so circular argument.

[Jay]

You don't see the problem with that?

[Caller from Nigeria]

Hear me out. Hear me out now. Don't put words in my mouth.

[Muslim Debater]

Sorry.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Is it half corrupted? How could it confirm it if it's corrupted?

[Caller from Nigeria]

Yeah, it confirms that. It confirms with information.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

How could it do that?

[Caller from Nigeria]

Information.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

So your book is confirmed by a corrupted text.

[Caller from Nigeria]

The book's not confirming. Confirmation. The Quran.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

It says the Torah.

[Caller from Nigeria]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Inquirer]

You're.

[Caller from Nigeria]

You're putting words in my mouth now.

[Jay]

Okay, it says. It multiple times. Says the Torah confirms the Torah and the prophets. The teaching of Moses confirmed what is in the Quran. And then you guys are so stupid that you sit here for hours arguing that it's all corrupted. Okay, so then it doesn't confirm the Quran, you idiot. Jacob.

[Caller from Nigeria]

What's.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Yep. Okay. Yeah, I had a question. The God of Judaism and the. I guess the attributes from the Kabbalistic tree of life.

[Jay]

What about it?

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Yes. So I wanted to know if, like, other Hebrew cults, like that guy you debated, Captain. I can't think of his name. He's a Hebrew Israelite guy. Yeah, like, would his God also be the same thing? Like, he would have a Kabbalistic tree of life attributes and stuff?

[Jay]

No, I don't think he knows anything about Kabbalah. He's just a Unitarian, so I don't. I don't know. Where he. He derives his. I mean, that's just a super low IQ cult. I don't think they think. They don't even think it out that far. Are you there? All right, well, we'll try as long as we can, but the cell service looks like it might be dying out soon. So if you have any last objections, questions, comments. This is probably the last chance to get it in today. We're in the mountains here, so it might cut out pretty soon. But, no, I don't think the Hebrew Israelites have any really developed theology. It's just kind of each individual black Hebrew Israelite cult leader makes it up as he goes. So who's next? Bring you up, mkg.

[Commentator]

Aj. Not a question. Well, not exactly, but I just want to know if you ever get the time to. Just check the DM I sent you, if it has any merit. I know it's. It's a. It might be.

[Jay]

I'll check it out. Appreciate that. Acacias, what's up?

[Muslim Debater]

Hey.

[Caller]

What's going on, brother? I just kind of joined in, so I was just trying to get some understanding. So basically you're saying that the Abrahamic religions are fake and. Yeah. Is that what you're saying?

[Jay]

There is no common Abrahamic religion. There's only Orthodox Christianity. That's the only one. Islam and Judaism are not Abrahamic religions.

[Caller]

Okay. I've always understood it that way, so I guess I misunderstood. So are you. So you're saying you're a orthodox Christian?

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Caller from Nigeria]

Okay, I got you.

[Jay]

What. What is your take? Did you want to discuss that?

[Caller]

Yeah. So what are the contemporaries of the time of Jesus being alive to prove that he was real.

[Jay]

Well, why is that? The way that we prove something was the case. I mean, there's all kinds of things in history that don't have contemporary writers like Plato. I mean, is Plato fake, too?

[Caller]

I don't. I mean, I know who Plato is, but I'm pretty sure Socrates or somebody. I think it is Socrates. Yeah, but like, has writings to him or what?

[Jay]

Socrates. Socrates didn't write anything. So you don't know what you're talking about. The earliest manuscript of Plato is 11. 1100s A.D. okay,

[Caller]

well, I mean, so, for example, like the Roman Empire, they documented a lot of things. They documented basically every time their soldier steps outside the gate or new inventions or what's going on in politics. And they never. The Romans or even the Library of Alexandria. No scholar, no writers ever wrote about this miraculous Jew walking on water,

[Caller from Nigeria]

people

[Caller]

bringing them back from the dead. They. They would do That, I mean, who wouldn't do that, right?

[Jay]

Well, no, if they believed it was all Jewish superstition, why would they. They didn't believe it. Why would they write about it? By the way, this is an argument from silence anyway. What is it supposed to prove?

[Caller]

I'm just asking you questions. I'm not trying to get an argument or fight.

[Jay]

Well, you're making arguments. I don't care if you're making arguments. I'm saying that it is an argument that Jesus, we don't know that he existed because you understand that there's way more attestation to the New Testament than there is to Plato. So I'm on better grounds believing the New Testament. There's over 5,000 manuscripts from the first three centuries that attest to the existence of Christ. The veracity of the New Testament. And you're on much shakier grounds with anything else. You didn't even know that Socrates didn't write. You think?

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah. I'm not like historian of that era at all. I just wanted to hear your take on it.

[Jay]

Well, why, why should we believe. Should we believe Roman pagan emperors? Should we believe Marcus Aurelius?

[Caller]

Yeah, I mean, people actually wrote letters. They have documented his existence.

[Jay]

So, I mean, why doesn't the New Testament. If there's thousands of New Testament documents, why is that not an argument for. For the existence of Christ on the same basis as people talking about Marcus Aurelius?

[Caller]

Well, I mean, the whole book, the whole Bible was written by Jews. And so I mean, the fact that, the fact that. That's the whole point of wanting to

[Jay]

have contemporaries, that's a fallacy. So just because the Bible's written by a Jewish author, what, what does that have to do with whether it's true or false? That's genetic false.

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah. No, what I'm. What I'm trying to say is, like, these were like his followers, but we don't know anybody outside this little group.

[Jay]

Okay, but that's not true.

[Caller]

So if you. So that's like saying, like, you. So you're walking around with a bunch of boys and you're teaching them about your. Your ideology.

[Jay]

Yeah, again, you're ignorant. You don't know what you're talking about. So I can give you. Josephus talks about the followers of Christ, the Talmud talks about the followers of Christ and rejects them and says that they are the Menim and that they're cursed. So there you go. There's ancient historical attestations outside of the Bible. Okay, but again, you missed the argument. I was making. Why should we believe Marcus Aurelius's texts prove his existence but the other texts don't prove Jesus existence?

[Caller]

Which text are you talking about that proves that Marcus Reyes was alive and Jesus was alive?

[Jay]

So do you believe Marcus Aurelius's Meditations? Have you read them?

[Caller]

Yeah, I actually have them both, yeah.

[Jay]

Okay, so you've read it?

[Caller]

I'm in the process of it.

[Jay]

I haven't read it all the way through. Okay, so is that an assessation to his existence?

[Caller]

I mean that claim, it's his journal or his.

[Jay]

Okay, so again it's a double standard. So Marcus Aurelius, there's evidence of his writings in existence, but. But when we talk about the New Testament, it doesn't count as Jews wrote it, which is a genetic fallacy. It's a double standard, dude.

[Caller]

I mean I guess thousands of people know that Mark's race is real and they he was the leader.

[Jay]

Thousands of people know it. That's an appeal to the masses. Another fallacy. You know, you don't think fallacies matter, just appeal to fallacies. Okay, thousands of people believe in Jesus, so it's true. Same argument you just made.

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[Jay]

Kaylin what's up?

[Muslim Debater]

Hey Jay.

[Jay]

Yep.

[Muslim Debater]

I'm asking for a little bit of advice here. I got a buddy that gone to psychedelics pretty heavy and like the we're all one kind of view and I was trying to talk him through it, make him realize it's kind of stupid to not see any good or bad. But I don't think my arguments really got through. What would you say to somebody?

[Jay]

Well, if he's under that delusion, he's probably not going to be convinced by you arguing out of it. It's probably just going to take time and you know, growing up a little bit, some lived experience and most people, not always, but most people kind of grow out of their DMT bro phase. So I would just give it some time and just love the guy and be his friend because you're probably not going to argue him out of his delusion of thinking that everything is one is some great insight. I would just point out. One thing you could point out is, well dude, if everything is one and everything is also then then you're coming to believe that everything is one is also just a manifestation of the one. And so it's not actually any revelation. It's just basically everything's an illusion. So if everything's an illusion, then the truth that you came to that you think you've discovered is actually also an illusion. So it's just a self refuting, kind of silly, nonsensical thing. And the other thing too is like people that do DMT or hardcore psychedelics or whatever it is, and they come to this great revelation. Yeah. We're all one man. Yeah. Wow. Congratulations. You've discovered the very thing that all the ancient pagan religions already said. So you're like, it's 5,000 years late, dude. It's really groundbreaking stuff. I hate.

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Regardless.

[Jay]

Request to speak. Last chance for the cell phone dies out probably. Who's next? You disagree, you go to the headline. It is an open debate. Always open debate. So be prepared for that. If you want to debate, you don't have to debate. You can ask questions if you want. Last call for alcohol. Who's up next? It requests to speak, y'.

[Caller from Nigeria]

All.

[Jay]

This has been fun. These Muslims are classic, right? I'm gonna. You know what I'm gonna do if we get another Muslim? I'm gonna go back to the

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

get

[Jay]

them to restate the argument thing because that's always a hoot, dude. Because literally no Muslim can actually just restate what you're. They're so dumb. They can't restate the argument. They'll be like, I don't believe your argument. Yeah, but can you say what it is?

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

I don't believe it.

[Jay]

Damani, what's up? Thank you. Almost there.

[Caller]

I'm looking forward to the party's dream.

[Jay]

Keep up the good work. Is that all or you have something else?

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

No, that's it.

[Jay]

Yeah, I appreciate that. We'll have a fun. 2,200, 000 subscriber party stream. Abu Car, what's up?

[Muslim Caller]

Oh, not much. Not much. Not much. You know, I was actually attracted. Islam and papism are fake. What is that?

[Jay]

What is it? The papacy? Catholicism? So they're all fake?

[Muslim Caller]

I mean, probably. You don't believe, but you cannot say it's a fake. You can say, I don't believe. That's. You have. You are a choice.

[Jay]

Why can't I say it's fake if I can prove that it's fake?

[Muslim Caller]

No, you cannot prove, man.

[Jay]

Okay, so can I give you an argument why it's fake?

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Yeah.

[Jay]

So what? You. Are you Muslim first?

[Muslim Caller]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Okay, so multiple places in the Quran it says that the teaching of the Quran and of Muhammad are confirmed and proven by prior revelation of the Torah. The prior revelation is also believed by most of you guys to be corrupt. So it's self refuting to say that your book and your teaching is confirmed by a corrupt book.

[Muslim Caller]

That's not the proof.

[Jay]

I mean, sure it is.

[Muslim Caller]

Islam, Islam is a lasting monotheism religion.

[Jay]

That's just an assertion. So how does that address my objection?

[Muslim Caller]

I mean, yes, you know, it's confirmed this, you know, in previous, you know, Judaism and Christianity was, you know, okay, correct.

[Jay]

But the previous religions are corrupted. So how does a corrupt thing confirm your religion?

[Muslim Caller]

I mean the corrupted mean is, you know, editing, changing language.

[Jay]

I know what the word corrupt means. So how can it confirm the religion then?

[Muslim Caller]

I mean there are some true, there is some. You cannot.

[Jay]

Yeah, that begs the question, that's the thing in question. What is the true thing? So yeah, we know that you think that it's corrupted, but how is it going to confirm the religion if it's corrupted? You don't see the problem with that?

[Muslim Caller]

I mean, is it, you know, 100 percentage?

[Orthodox Christian Debater]

Oh, so what's the, I mean that's percentage. Is it 30%? Is it 30 corrupted? 80 corrupted. You see how silly this is? How do we know what's the not corrupted part?

[Muslim Caller]

We know anything in Quran does not confirm is corrupted.

[Jay]

Oh, so that's the thing in question. So the Quran confirms the Quran by stating what's in the Quran. Thank you.

[Muslim Debater]

Yeah.

[Jay]

That's a circle. Yeah, that's a circular argument. So that's why it doesn't work.

[Muslim Caller]

I mean, you know one thing about, you know, I mean.

[Jay]

Yep.

[Muslim Caller]

We don't say that.

[Jay]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. Bartholomew, what's up? Good.

[Muslim Debater]

Yeah. Now just to, I used to be a Muslim as well, but just to add on to what you just said, but basically the Quran obviously says in Surah, three verses 52 to 53, how the disciples of Jesus were true followers of Allah, true followers of God. So and it says that they spread the true message and that their message became dominant.

[Jay]

So if, if we look at the

[Muslim Debater]

dominant message, what they wrote, it's literally Christianity. So again, just, just, just to hammer that down.

[Jay]

So yeah, I just wanted to say that's another great argument. Yeah. Because if that got all up, gave them the victory and the victory was what they taught, that was Christianity then Christian.

[Muslim Debater]

Exactly.

[Jay]

Yeah. Anthony. Yeah, good points. Anthony. What's up

[Caller]

between like the Islamic worldview and, and that of like Unitarians or those that deny like the apostolic succession. Because I know you mentioned many times like heresy is rooted out of a misunderstanding of Christology or.

[Jay]

Yeah, even. Even Islam comes out in historianism and aranism.

[Caller]

Yeah, exactly. Great point. I mean, so I know you're driving, but I added this clip I saved of this world leading Muslim apologist, Sacra Nike. Basically, it's. It's pretty dark, but this Canadian Muslim calls in and he. He asks him. It's like a. A hotline. He calls in and asks him if. If I raped a girl and then murdered her and I'm not caught by the law, will Allah forgive me? And he basically says, yeah, as long as you repent to Allah, he'll forgive you. What's eerie is that, you know, I know you're on JLP recently, but the Unitarians and, and non orthodox have the same con. You know, same idea that there's no conception of a, you know, a priest havoc or a spiritual father retaining or remitting any sins. So ultimately it's like there's really no difference. JLP recently said that if. If you and I. I hope he was joking about this, but like if you kill someone or murder someone and you're not caught, just don't tell anybody and ask God for forgiveness. It's. It was. It was just insane. I hope he was joking.

[Jay]

It's even. No, it's even crazier than that because if you watch Jesse Lee Peterson sound.

[Caller]

Sorry, you cut it out on my end. What was the last part? Oh, maybe just me. I can't hear you. Yeah, yeah, it's not you who commits the sin. It's like. Yeah, it's. It's weird, man. So, yeah, I just wanted to make that comment and, and I added that video if you want to review. It's. It's a guy that millions of people listen to and, And Muslims. It's. It's even scarier in Canada. You know, you have Canadians calling and saying this stuff.

[Caller from Nigeria]

It.

[Caller]

Yeah, Sergey. I couldn't hear that last part I was cutting out. I don't know if it's just me or not.

[Caller from Nigeria]

It.

[Caller]

Yeah, maybe it's a. I don't know if it's me or the signal. I can't hear anything.

[Caller from Nigeria]

Sa.

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